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Shadowlance
01-11-2010, 09:30
G'day all.

To say I like power armour would be an understatement, I'm more of a fan boy of power armour, but my love for my two power armoured forces (Marines and their chaos counterparts) can only last so long.

I love playing my two marine forces but I want to try something different. And they key point of that difference is something not with a BLOODY 3+ SAVE!!! AHHH THE MONOTONY!!!

So to that end I have been looking to start a new army and the two at the top of my list are Tyranids and Dark Eldar. With Tyranids I love the overall feel of their forces be it swarm or nidzilla I think its pretty cool, and their models looks superb and the idea of fielding a horde of miniatures (ignoring the looming $$$ it will suck from my wallet) is a jaw dropping enticement.

And then there are Dark Eldar, They not at the top of the list due to their new update inbound but rather to what I believe are some of the most beautiful GWS miniatures that are about to be released. As well as after reading through the display dex at my local GWS store I have a great interest in their army fluff.

My overall perspective of either army is still comparatively limited and what with my wallet screaming NOT BOTH!!! I ask if the humble Warseer forum may offer up a few points to help aid my decision in choosing my new army.

All perspectives that are constructive are welcome :D

Cheers.
Shadowlance .

marv335
01-11-2010, 09:36
I'd say DE
I'm sitting here reading the codex, and it's fantastic.
The rules are good, the models are good, the conversion opportunities are extensive, what's not to love?

reu666
01-11-2010, 10:20
I have to agree with marv335 I fell in love with the new DE as soon as i saw them i really think the codex is a masterpeice aswell as the models. having said this though the last thing you want to do is spend 200 on an army and then regret doing it.

I'm a painter so its the models that appeal to me but if you prefer the nids (which also have some sweet models) then go for them.

marv335
01-11-2010, 10:32
At this stage I'd like to point out that I've just blown 200 on GW mail order since my last post on this subject so I may be slightly biased on the subject...

(and before anyone starts, GW is actually the cheapest place for me to buy GW stuff believe it or not)

Archibald_TK
01-11-2010, 10:38
Three things you must take into consideration regarding Tyranids :

- Biovore, Broodlord, Deathleaper, Hive Guard, Hive Tyrant, Lictor, Spores Mines, Old One Eye, Pyrovore, Tyrant Guard, Venomthrope and Zoanthrope are metal and as such are pricey, especially as some of these choices you'll probably want multiple times.

- Doom of Malantai, Harpy, Mycetic Spores, Parasite of Mortrex, Sky-Lashers, Swarmlord, Tervigon, Shrikes and Tyrannofex have no miniatures currently available and that'll probably stay that way for a long time.

- Some units actually come without the options you'll probably want to use with them *cough*Boneswords*cough*.

As for the comparison between the two Codices I'll quote myself from the other thread:

I considered adding a new army to my roster when I heard the Tyranids were redone. I abandoned the idea when the Codex was released as it killed my interest in the army, not because I couldn't do an awesome devastating list but because I was unable to field the units I wanted the way I wanted due to poor repartition in the FoC and high prices (that hurts a lot because I really like their miniatures), I felt the Codex shoehorned me into certain builds, many rules were simply dysfunctional and let me feel like they weren't even playtested in the slightest.

On the opposite until GD UK I considered the DE as an army that I would never collect. It was basically the army I had the least interest in the ENTIRE range bare none. As of today I plan on creating a DE army because the Codex and the miniatures won me over like I would have never expected. Compared to the Tyranids one the new DE codex has awesome fluff, more units, more options for each of them, tons of weapons and wargears, internal balance, very few poorly designed units, working rules, lots of viable builds... they are not at the same level of design by any stretch of the imagination and I hope my new Tau Codex will not look like the Tyranid one.

Shadowlance
01-11-2010, 10:59
Thanks to all who have so far posted responses


I'd say DE
I'm sitting here reading the codex, and it's fantastic.
The rules are good, the models are good, the conversion opportunities are extensive, what's not to love?

I absolutely agree Marv, they do look very good! I finally got a chance to take a good look at their rules which are very nice indeed, and not to heavy on the cheese either which while not a positive or negative it will definitely keep my gaming group from complaining!


Three things you must take into consideration regarding Tyranids :

- Biovore, Broodlord, Deathleaper, Hive Guard, Hive Tyrant, Lictor, Spores Mines, Old One Eye, Pyrovore, Tyrant Guard, Venomthrope and Zoanthrope are metal and as such are pricey, especially as some of these choices you'll probably want multiple times.

- Doom of Malantai, Harpy, Mycetic Spores, Parasite of Mortrex, Sky-Lashers, Swarmlord, Tervigon, Shrikes and Tyrannofex have no miniatures currently available and that'll probably stay that way for a long time.

- Some units actually come without the options you'll probably want to use with them *cough*Boneswords*cough*.

As for the comparison between the two Codices I'll quote myself from the other thread:

Ouch, I hadn't actualy looked at the full miniature range for Nids yet and that is a real letdown, I dont mind converting and building from scratch (though im not that good at it :D) but having that much missing is just painful. Also thanks for that quote, really helpful!


Thanks again all for the quick responces, Dark Eldar look like the better option at the moment though im still not through with Nids yet.

Thanks again all

Cheers.
Shadowlance.

Omens
01-11-2010, 13:25
DE also has a few gaps to fill as well.
Wracks, grotesques, the fighter and bomber, 4 special chraracters, venom, heamoculai, the 4 beasts and the archons court dont have models yet.

Archibald_TK
01-11-2010, 14:23
DE also has a few gaps to fill as well.
Wracks, grotesques, the fighter and bomber, 4 special chraracters, venom, heamoculai, the 4 beasts and the archons court dont have models yet.
As well as the Chronos. Interesting thing I noticed in that month WD is that GW has kept some of the older models for sale in order to compensate (Haemonculus, Drazhar, Talos). Yet I bet you a dried goldfish that despite the Tyranid Codex being 10 months older we will see the missing DE units released faster than the Tyranids ones.

Silent_Moebius
01-11-2010, 15:55
For me personally, I go for Tyranids. They are something special. You can build powerful lists. Yeah, you maybe can't build 359 powerful lists with the codex, but hey - is this really necessary? I think not. Ok, they got nerved with some rules, but still you can win. Not as easy like other armys, but hey, it is not going to be boring to play. And the models: Even with no interest in convertion, the carnifex can "count as". It works really great. And there not a such great difference between a Carnifex and a Tervigon. Not when building the Carnifex with 4x Scything Talons. So, this will work pretty well.

Many people want something to identify with in the games - the chapter master, the farseer, the autarch, the waaaagh-boss - and many say, there is nothing to identify with in the Nids. Yeah, you have no model on the field, representing you, getting killed / eaten / smashed by the opponent. YOU are the general of a complete HIVE FLEET. This is real immortality - and this is really cool.

The last part to say, until now, many player sells their Nid armys. So you can get really cheap models. Sometimes even converted Tervigons. Getting you the Nids will not be such expensive like getting all the new DE stuff.

But that are only my thoughts. As you can see, I'm unhopefully out numbered here with pro Nids. :D

Runt Nosher
01-11-2010, 16:34
I have played Nids since 3rd and I actually would like to support them as the one you should pick. I don't think either of the armies that are on the dochet here are going to net you an overly competitive list without paying close attention to online cookie-cutter builds and if what you want is an army that you are interested in painting as well as playing then I suggest you pick what appeals to you most. I never played Nidzilla to its fullest extent in 4th, a Winged Tyrant and 2 Fexes, and have always enjoyed playing a speedy swarmy list. With the new rules and Gargoyle models my army is that much more effective, add in the awesome Trygon and things actually got quite a bit better for me IMO. I never used elites that much in the last incarnation of the book, I think that the new book has overcrowded the section a bit but the reliance on Hive Guard that most people scream about I just can't see. Basically I'm a huge fan of the Nids and their codex, they have some really neat aces up their sleeves and there are unkillable builds that will rape face.

On the other hand Dark Eldar was the first 40k army I invested in way back when. After getting an Archon some Incubi and a box of Warriors I lost interest because the models just weren't up to scratch. With the release of this new range I have a feeling they will be the next army I get, even if I need something in Power Armour (I currently play Daemons and Nids).

The easy way out is pick the army that you can see yourself enjoying painting the most. Nids can be really tough because of the sheer volume of swarminess, I have over 100 gaunt chassis models and they can get tiresome after you've done 40 or so. If the decision is more game related check out some of the army lists and try to foresee how it is the army you would select would play out on the field, Nids can be tough in ways Dark Eldar can only dream of, whilst the bugs are known for being fast but obviously nothing like Pirate-Deathboat-Spam.

ghoulio
01-11-2010, 18:38
Basically you have a choice between a codex that

A) Has been lovingly crafted, given an immense amount of thought and time (like 4+ years) and is, in my opinion, did everything in its power to be respectful of long time fans by making existing choices better and is the best codex GW has releaesd to date (Dark Eldar)

-OR-

B) A codex that was rushed out the door, made changes soley to make existing Tyranid players 100% buy a new army (I should know, even though I had 2000pts fully painted I had to paint another 2000pts just to be comeptitive again), has a slew of units you HAVE to take that dont models (and I will bet tonnes of $$$ will never have models - See Tervigon, Harpy, Tyrannofex, any Special Character that isnt the Deathleaper) and it has some of the worst written rules in GW history as well as the worst internal balance of any codex I have read.

I plan on shelving my own Tyranids, an army I spent over a year and a half painting/converting and starting up Dark Eldar because they have the best models in any GW range, some of the best and more importantly FUN rules of any Codex. It feels good to be finally playing an army that makes SENSE :)

(and yes I am bitter lol)

Kelderaith
01-11-2010, 18:56
I would go with DE too (actually, I will probably go with the DE myself, and I play tyranid lol). The codex seems about a million time more balanced than the tyranid one. The models are exquisite (though this applies to tyranid as well imho) and you will get 1.5 and 2nd wave way before tyranids get theirs (because it's a new range they want to promote asap). If you are more of a collector than a gamer, tyranid could be a good choice, because I think a tyranid army looks GREAT, and models are really fun to assemble and paint, but their rules really aren't up to par, so if you are more a gamer type, I would avoid them. The limitation in the range of DE for the first few months will actually come out to be a good thing in the long run, because it will let you time to actually paint this part of your army before getting other stuff that will come out later on.

Jonny_N
01-11-2010, 20:36
Painting tyranids means a very organic feel, painting eldar gives lots of opportunities for gleaming armor. I would pick based on what I could learn more from, or enjoy more. Game terms is a personal choice for you, and fluff wise what appeals to your personality more. Personally I would go for the Dark Eldar, as the tyranids don't appeal to me, whereas the dark eldar do :)

Souleater
01-11-2010, 20:45
Dark Eldar. Balanced, well written codex with darkly humorous moments. And the best figures GW has ever done.

ago syb
01-11-2010, 22:34
I'd go Tyranids, I like playing with underdog codices. False sense of security is good. Plus you'll probably be new DE player #3183749 if that even matters to you. If all you're looking for is a departure from an MEQ army, either one are just about as far as you can get :P

-Loki-
01-11-2010, 23:35
- Doom of Malantai, Harpy, Mycetic Spores, Parasite of Mortrex, Sky-Lashers, Swarmlord, Tervigon, Shrikes and Tyrannofex have no miniatures currently available and that'll probably stay that way for a long time.

- Some units actually come without the options you'll probably want to use with them *cough*Boneswords*cough*.

They're not available through GW directly, but they are available - and tournament legal. Mostly, anyway. Weapons like boneswords are available through other websites (which also lets you make a Swarmlord with the GW Hive Tyrant). Shrike wings and Sky Slashers are available from Forgeworld. Chapterhouse have a Tervigon kit that works with the Carnifex kit. All of these are perfectly legal in GW stores and tournaments since they are either official models (Forgeworld) or using a GW model as a base (bone sword arms and Tervigon kit).

Chapterhouse also have a really nice spore pod now, but since it's a completely unique model, it's likely not tournament legal.

Tyrannofex though, is unfortunately completely missing.

ReveredChaplainDrake
02-11-2010, 00:20
- Biovore, Broodlord, Deathleaper, Hive Guard, Hive Tyrant, Lictor, Spores Mines, Old One Eye, Pyrovore, Tyrant Guard, Venomthrope and Zoanthrope are metal and as such are pricey, especially as some of these choices you'll probably want multiple times.

- Doom of Malantai, Harpy, Mycetic Spores, Parasite of Mortrex, Sky-Lashers, Swarmlord, Tervigon, Shrikes and Tyrannofex have no miniatures currently available and that'll probably stay that way for a long time.

- Some units actually come without the options you'll probably want to use with them *cough*Boneswords*cough*.
For the first point, what Dark Eldar classic models lack in price, they make up for in ugly. Also, consider that Dark Eldar models are very points-cheap. While it seems like a game play boon, and it totally is, if you want to buy a sizable army for Dark Eldar, it's going to cost you a lot of money. Granted, probably not as much as a Tyranid army (depending on your skill with conversions), but it's not as incomparable as you'd think.

For the second point, you really don't want to compare unreleased model ranges between Dark Eldar and anything. The DE have models only for about a third of their units presently, and that's not even including the baker's dozen of special characters. You cannot compare that to any army on the current roster, period. What's worse is that GW will not be producing Razorwings and Voidravens, preferring for you to buy them from Forge World for... well, crack is cheaper.

For the third, if you want to bring up Tyranids not having weapons options, you ought to at least mention the counter-point, how Dark Eldar have virtually no character models other than the Archon, Lelith, and Rakarth. If you want the others (and believe me, you will), you'll have to convert them. So which would you rather convert: models or weapons?

Hive Fleet Snackin'
02-11-2010, 01:45
I have roughly 6k points of 'nids and 3k points of the old school Dark Eldar.

I love both armies, and am happy that I have both.

My only real advice concerns the 'lack of models' factor.

My immediate desire to jump back into full Dark Eldar mode was somewhat squashed by the limited availability of new releases. Specifically, no fighter/bomber/Cronos, the complete retooling of the wracks/grotesques, and the SEVERE lack of HQ models.

I wouldn't be fooled by people suggesting because the book is new and the wave of models being released in November is somewhat large that most of the army will be available any time soon. Frankly, there is no way to guarantee it one way or the other. If the wave doesn't sell well, it could be an extremely long time before another round of models comes out. For that matter, even if another wave comes out in 6 months, a very large chunk of the models will still be missing.

In the Tyranid corner, the biggest gap is in special characters, and even those are modifications of existing models that don't really require extensive conversions. It's much easier to turn a Zoanthrope into a Doom of Malantai by throwing on some extra antennae or plates than it is to take a ravager or raider and turn it into a convincing Voidraven or Razorwing. Tyrannofexes and Tervigons are both essentially carnifexes, despite griping to the contrary. Even shrikes have forgeworld support available, and you could take gargoyle wings and slap them on if push came to shove.

Personally, I was really turned off by where the gaps fell in the Dark Eldar line. I'm not looking forward to buying a Tomb Spyder and slapping syringes on it to call it a Cronos, and the only thing that I wouldn't feel completely stupid about proxying as one of the two plane-style vehicles is a Void Dragon, which carries a hefty price tag. Ogryns for Grotesques? Pricey.

You're not going to escape a lot of conversion work with either army, so unless that's your thing, you should really look through both books and see what units speak to you, and then compare it to model support. It's more likely that a greater proportion of models you will want to use will be covered in the Tyranid book, especially if you don't already own those models.

Many Tyranid players are salty because their carnifexes went the way of the dodo and Trygons came in as the new darling. If you don't have any carnifexes, you don't really have to suffer the same sting that many other 'nid players did- so don't be turned off by their sourness. Likewise, they're mad about spinefists getting trumped by the now standard fleshborer. Again, if you weren't already invested in spinegaunts, that's less you have to replace.

The "omg the codex made me buy a new army" argument is irrelevant to a new 'nid player, don't let it dissuade you. Further, there are many, many websites offering bonesword/lashwhip biomorphs now in comparison to when the book dropped- the same with Mycetic spore stand-ins and Tervigon conversion packages.

Unless the wave of Dark Eldar models is *exactly* what you want to field, you're in for more of a headache than some people are letting on. Crazy about Scourge? Want to drop Implosion missiles on your enemy's head? Like the idea of small Venoms dropping off elite combat squads? You're out of luck if any of those are the case, and have no way to guarantee when that'll change.

Archibald_TK
02-11-2010, 02:30
What's worse is that GW will not be producing Razorwings and Voidravens, preferring for you to buy them from Forge World for... well, crack is cheaper.
I will gladly answer your other points tomorrow as its 2am here (plus I'll have the codex in hand), but I just wanted to quickly point that out:
Forgeworld does not produce Razorwings and Voidravens. All units in a Codex are now designed to be sold by GW main branch and not FW at one point or another if they green light the production. I didn't hear that the DE Bombers were supposed to be an exception so if you have any information on that issue could you give us more?

EDITED - because I was not that clear after rereading myself.

Hive Fleet Snackin'
02-11-2010, 02:34
I will gladly answer your other points tomorrow as its 2am here (plus I'll have the codex in hand), but I just wanted to quickly point that out:
Forgeworld does not produce Razorwings and Voidravens. All units in a Codex are designed to be sold by GW at one point or another if they green light the production. I didn't hear that the DE Bombers were supposed to be an exception so if you have any information on that issue could you give us more?

I think the perception that GW would prefer Forgeworld purchases is because Forgeworld already makes quite a few aircraft-style models, and models like the Void Dragon I mentioned in my post are part of Corsair fleets that tend to merc out to both Eldar factions.

The old Raven is still a possibility, but in my opinion it's ugly as sin and looks like a larger version of the old Reaver jetbike with poorly designed wings... sort of like a prototype Batman vehicle.

TheLaughingGod
02-11-2010, 02:41
You know what's more monotonous than a 3+ save? Not getting a save because all your armour is ignored by every gun in the game.

Just saying...

ReveredChaplainDrake
02-11-2010, 14:30
You know what's more monotonous than a 3+ save? Not getting a save because all your armour is ignored by every gun in the game.

Just saying...
At least Tyranids and Dark Eldar know where they stand when they get shot at. (And if they do get a save, it's quite a thing to actually pass it!) MEQs are just at the mercy of any list that spams good-AP weapons, with their only saving grace being their transport tanks.

Ulrig
02-11-2010, 15:57
DE, the new codex is really well done and balanced....unlike the nids.

Zweischneid
02-11-2010, 16:09
At least Tyranids and Dark Eldar know where they stand when they get shot at. (And if they do get a save, it's quite a thing to actually pass it!) MEQs are just at the mercy of any list that spams good-AP weapons, with their only saving grace being their transport tanks.

Still. Takes a certain masochistic tolerance to buy, assemble & paint dozends of nifty models that will only ever be lying in your box turn 2+.

Assuming you're shot at by a mix of AP/non-AP weapons, a 3+ armour/4+ cover to me tends to average out somewhere close to "about-50%-of-wounds-saved", which is a decent measure of meticously painted miniatures to go back into the box for a table-top mini wargame.

Given, the average of "50%-of-your-wounded-minis-go-to-the-box" shouldn't be the "elite" of Space Marines, but the standard army with Marines being far more survivable in line with the fluff. But hey, got to play what you get.

Shadowlance
20-11-2010, 07:35
Thanks to all who posted, sorry I haven't replied in a while, been out and about but i have fortunatly had some time to play test.

I think Dark Eldar are the way to go, Love the feel and I just cant walk past the kabalite warriors :D

cheers again all
Shadowlance

DYoung
20-11-2010, 07:51
For the second point, you really don't want to compare unreleased model ranges between Dark Eldar and anything. The DE have models only for about a third of their units presently, and that's not even including the baker's dozen of special characters. You cannot compare that to any army on the current roster, period. What's worse is that GW will not be producing Razorwings and Voidravens, preferring for you to buy them from Forge World for... well, crack is cheaper.

I don't see the problem with FW making the DE flyers. Buying vehicles from FW is way cheaper than buying them from GW. A FW grav-tank costs me about half as much as if I buy it from GW.

Hicks
20-11-2010, 09:13
Nid player here and I say go with DE, unless you like the nids models more. The DE dex is an exemple of what a codex should be like, while the nids codex is just going to make you want to bang your head on the wall.

I can't say wich one is more powerfull, but the DE seem to be much more fun and easy to collect than the current nid army.

Deon
20-11-2010, 11:20
As a nid player, i have to say, DE have the better codex
but i still love to play with my tyranid horde, the army is not a bad one
the models all look good, and they can be a powerfull force to be recond with.
Oh yes, almost forgot, you can use a Trygon:p

SilentSnake
20-11-2010, 14:25
I was in the same position, I decided to start DE and use Nids as my beastmaster's pets! Hormagaunts as Khymerae, Raveners as Clawed Fiends and Forge World winged rippers as Razorwing flocks. I can tell the wife it's all one army while it's sneakily starting two!:D

Seriously though the DE codex is the best ive read in a long time.

Ulrig
20-11-2010, 15:30
Go Dark Eldar

Seriously, Read through both the Dark Eldar Codex and the Tyranid Codex

It will be an easy decision for you.

Spider-pope
20-11-2010, 17:38
What's worse is that GW will not be producing Razorwings and Voidravens, preferring for you to buy them from Forge World for... well, crack is cheaper.

You're going to be in for a shock next year then boyo.