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Lord Inquisitor
02-11-2010, 04:50
A series of questions that cropped up that I can't find an answer for.

Challenges. If a character from unit A is in a challenge, and unit B is in combat with unit A but only in base contact with the character, can they attack the unit or are they simply not allowed to attack at all?

The River of Light. The River of Light means a Light spell is cast on any unit moving through it. But all Light spells apart from spell #5, operate "until the caster's next magic phase". When is this? If it's the next magic phase, then the spells just immediately end and have zero effect on the game.

Van Horstman's Speculum. Can you choose to activate VHS midway through a challenge (if the challenger's stats suddenly improve for whatever reason).

Augment/Hex spells. If a unit is under a spell that changes stats (e.g. +1 Strength or -1 Toughness) is this considered a modifier to whatever stat they have or an actual change to the stat. For example, in a challenge with an empire character with VHS and under +3S, +3A, does the spell change the stat directly (so the empire character would get the beefed stat) or just modify whatever stat there is (so swap stats and then apply the modifier)?

Cheers!

Neth
02-11-2010, 05:47
Hey, here are my thoughts on some of this
- the augment/hex spells. I don't think the stats would transfer. My reasoning is that your model is the one that has been the target of the spell so no matter what happens to your model it will always continue to gain the bonus.
- VHS. I would say you would have to use it at the start of the challenge based on the first sentence of the item. " When the wearer fights a challenge he can swap...."
- Common sense for the challenge question would be that they just reach around him and attack, but I think I'm going to wait to see what others say on that one. :)

Grimsteel
02-11-2010, 06:52
Hey, here are my thoughts on some of this
- the augment/hex spells. I don't think the stats would transfer. My reasoning is that your model is the one that has been the target of the spell so no matter what happens to your model it will always continue to gain the bonus.
- VHS. I would say you would have to use it at the start of the challenge based on the first sentence of the item. " When the wearer fights a challenge he can swap...."
- Common sense for the challenge question would be that they just reach around him and attack, but I think I'm going to wait to see what others say on that one. :)

The vh spec only switches base stats so I dont think any improvments that take place would be switched.

stripsteak
02-11-2010, 06:54
Challenges. If a character from unit A is in a challenge, and unit B is in combat with unit A but only in base contact with the character, can they attack the unit or are they simply not allowed to attack at all? they aren't allowed. You can only attack models you are in base contact with. Since the only thing they are b2b with is the character, and he is ineligible to be attacked due to a challenge, they have nothing else they can attack.


The River of Light. The River of Light means a Light spell is cast on any unit moving through it. But all Light spells apart from spell #5, operate "until the caster's next magic phase". When is this? If it's the next magic phase, then the spells just immediately end and have zero effect on the game.
Seems right, keep in mind that there are other times besides the movement phase when a unit might pass through this river. fleeing after combat would be a possibly great time to get light of battle, although fleeing after a charge could be troublesome getting that. moved during the magic phase would be a good time to get well any of the augments.

the only other options i can see really seem like more stretches of the rules, going until the next next magic is doing just that it's not going to the next magic phase. maybe it could be argued that the casters next magic phase is the next time it casts which would be really silly as that could mean an augment that lasts an entire game.


Augment/Hex spells. If a unit is under a spell that changes stats (e.g. +1 Strength or -1 Toughness) is this considered a modifier to whatever stat they have or an actual change to the stat. For example, in a challenge with an empire character with VHS and under +3S, +3A, does the spell change the stat directly (so the empire character would get the beefed stat) or just modify whatever stat there is (so swap stats and then apply the modifier)?
well since they are modifying the stat i would say they are modifiers. a model has t3 but under effects of a spell becomes t4, you are just stealing his stat you aren't stealing his spell benefit as well. Its the same idea behind great weapons you are stealing their strength not the added benefit they have of using a giant sword

Frosty_TK
02-11-2010, 08:27
Question one
You are only allowed to attack what you can touch. So in the current example, just the heroes fight. On a personal note, I tend to let those behind or next two the character attack the unit, but that's "houseruling"

Question two was answered in the errata. It lasts until the start of the magic phase of current players next turn. (see the frequently asked questions on that)

Van Horstmans Speculum does not trade any buffs. None through items, none through magic. And the buffs and hexes are improvemenets upon the base stat, just like a potion of Strength for example, which isn't traded either.

Whether you can activate the speculum on any later combat phases, I don't know. But just from memory, activating it in between initative passes (e.g. after the elf has struck but before you attack yourself) doesn't work, or someone would surely have tried that stunt allready.

Archangelion
02-11-2010, 09:55
I agree with Frosty_TK and stripsteak on the base to base ruleing. It is a simple matter that I think alot of people try to overthink.

I can't help with the magic item, as I don't have the army book.

Spells that give a modifer to a stat are a modifer and should be treated as such.

I would say that "the caster's next magic phase" for the river of light would be the magic phase that occurs the turn after the current player's turn. So, if it is your turn, and you moved through a river of light, then the spell would stop its effect on your next magic phase (after this turn). If the spell took place durring you oponent's turn, then the spell would stop its effect on your opponent's next magic phase. This way, the spell will last for aproximatly the same time that it would normally.

sssk
02-11-2010, 13:38
there've been good responses to everything except this river connundrum.

I think for the time being (until there's a FAQ) you'd have to decide before the battle (or when the river is found to be a light one) between the two players what the effects are.

Personally I would make it last from the phase it is triggered in, until your next one of those phases (terrible wording, let me give an example).

So unit moves into light river in their movement phase, and triggers a spell which "lasts until the caster's next magic phase". The spell is then on the unit until their next movement phase.

Now obviously that doesn't follow the whole "until the caster's next magic phase" thing, but as far as I'm aware there is no "whimsical scenery turn" in between player one and player 2's turn, so it would seem vaguely reasonable to make it last the same length of time as it would if it were cast in the magic phase by a wizard.

Now as I said, that's what I would probably do, but the key thing here is to agree with your opponent before it actually has any impact on the game, so that you're both clear before you start arguing.

DeathlessDraich
02-11-2010, 15:42
Q1) Yes other models do not fight.
Support attacks - the rules imply that Support attacks are dependent on which enemy models in btb with the model in front - "If the front rank model is in base contact with 2 enemy models with different profiles, the attacking player can choose etc".
I would lean towards disallowing Support attacks in this case because of the above

Q3) Van horstamann states "when the wearer fights" i.e. when he actually strikes or when it is his turn to strike.

Therefore, VHS can be used midway through the challenge after the enemy has struck and when it is the wearer's turn to strike.
BUT since Initiatives are also swapped, the blows struck will have to be simultaneous!! - the wearer and the enemy both have the enemy's Initiative after VHS is activated.

Neat little trick? I don't think so - Only a marginal advantage in some unique situations :) and the bearer will probably be slain.


Q4) +1, +2, +3 are definitely modifiers for Strength as stated by the rules -"If the Strength is shown as a modifier for example +1, +2 or -1" .
I'm sure most players would accept that this can be extended to include all similar notation as modifiers.

a18no
02-11-2010, 15:46
Q3) Van horstamann states "when the wearer fights" i.e. when he actually strikes or when it is his turn to strike.

Therefore, VHS can be used midway through the challenge after the enemy has struck and when it is the wearer's turn to strike.
BUT since Initiatives are also swapped, the blows struck will have to be simultaneous!! - the wearer and the enemy both have the enemy's Initiative after VHS is activated.

Neat little trick? I don't think so - Only a marginal advantage in some unique situations :) and the bearer will probably be slain.


If you only fight when you strike, how could you prevent opponent from hitting you ??

You "fight" when you strike and when you defend. Don't try to create trick, or I'll auto-hit you since you are not fighting when I'm striking.

Lord Inquisitor
02-11-2010, 16:59
Okay, looking at each one.

So the consensus is that if a unit is only in contact with a character who is in a challenge, they can't attack. Yeah, that figures, just stupid. Dunno why Warhammer hasn't moved to a unit-attacks-unit mechanic, but that's a gripe for another thread.

The River of Light - yes, there is a FAQ! Thanks, Frosty_TK, well spotted. Took me a while to find it even when I knew it was there, but yep, it is!

Q: When does the affect of an augment or hex spell end if it is ‘cast’
by a River of Light? And what happens if a spell cast by a River of
Light affects a unit’s ability to move? (p120)
A: Augment and hex spells last until the start of the Magic
phase in their sides next turn – the spell does not end in the
Magic phase immediately after the Movement phase when it
was triggered. Any movement effects will not apply until the
unit’s next Movement phase – they do not affect movement on
the turn they are triggered.

The consensus seems to be that the modifier stays on the unit, and only the base stat is swapped. This seems reasonable.

As for VHS being activated midway through the challenge, I'm not convinced. Looking at it again, you certainly can't deactivate the mirror. "He can choose not to use the mirror, but if he does he must swap all these characteristics for teh duration of the challenge." So if I charge with a Mountain Chimera, you challenge and I accept and cancel the spell, you're stuck in a challenge with the wizard with swapped stats. On the other hand, if you choose not to swap stats with the wizard at the beginning, can you choose to use the mirror after he powers up to the chimera? I would have thought that it would work both ways but it doesn't quite say that.

Archangelion
03-11-2010, 00:44
Ah, okay. So it is the magic phase in the following player turn, not the current one. Right. I figgured to just treat it as though the spell were cast by one of your own wizards for how long the duration lasts. Nice to have that resovled.

DaemonReign
03-11-2010, 13:15
A series of questions that cropped up that I can't find an answer for.

Challenges. If a character from unit A is in a challenge, and unit B is in combat with unit A but only in base contact with the character, can they attack the unit or are they simply not allowed to attack at all?

The River of Light. The River of Light means a Light spell is cast on any unit moving through it. But all Light spells apart from spell #5, operate "until the caster's next magic phase". When is this? If it's the next magic phase, then the spells just immediately end and have zero effect on the game.

Van Horstman's Speculum. Can you choose to activate VHS midway through a challenge (if the challenger's stats suddenly improve for whatever reason).

Augment/Hex spells. If a unit is under a spell that changes stats (e.g. +1 Strength or -1 Toughness) is this considered a modifier to whatever stat they have or an actual change to the stat. For example, in a challenge with an empire character with VHS and under +3S, +3A, does the spell change the stat directly (so the empire character would get the beefed stat) or just modify whatever stat there is (so swap stats and then apply the modifier)?

Cheers!

1 - You question about Challanges.
I concider RAW in this case being that "No, the unit touching ONLY a character that is already engaged in a Challange may not attack at all" - this is pretty ugly when it seeing it on the field, sort of like when the Pope-mobil is in a challange and nobody gets to hit the wagon while the Priest on top of it is locked in a challange. So I can understand your question.

2 - River of Light has been dealt with by others.

3 - Whether or not you can choose when to activate the Speculum.. I think the "spirit of the game" would be to decide at the Start of the Challange. That's at least how my Empire-friends always plays it.

4 - The Speculum only effects base-stats. In our group, since Daemonic Gifts are Not "magic items" per say, we have made them the only exception.

For example, if you use the Speculum against a Herald of Khorne with Firestorm blade then the Empire-guy DOES get the benefit from the +1 strength of that Gift. Similarly, a Herald of Slaanesh with +2 attacks would also confer those exta attacks to the Speculum's advantage, same thing for the Awesome Strength or Dark Insanity of a Bloodthirster.

In all other matters it's the base stat that is important as far as I see it.

Lord_Elric
03-11-2010, 13:27
1 - You question about Challanges.
I concider RAW in this case being that "No, the unit touching ONLY a character that is already engaged in a Challange may not attack at all" - this is pretty ugly when it seeing it on the field, sort of like when the Pope-mobil is in a challange and nobody gets to hit the wagon while the Priest on top of it is locked in a challange. So I can understand your question.

2 - River of Light has been dealt with by others.

3 - Whether or not you can choose when to activate the Speculum.. I think the "spirit of the game" would be to decide at the Start of the Challange. That's at least how my Empire-friends always plays it.

4 - The Speculum only effects base-stats. In our group, since Daemonic Gifts are Not "magic items" per say, we have made them the only exception.

For example, if you use the Speculum against a Herald of Khorne with Firestorm blade then the Empire-guy DOES get the benefit from the +1 strength of that Gift. Similarly, a Herald of Slaanesh with +2 attacks would also confer those exta attacks to the Speculum's advantage, same thing for the Awesome Strength or Dark Insanity of a Bloodthirster.

In all other matters it's the base stat that is important as far as I see it.

4) gifts and such are considered special rules that give an effect if speculum only effects base stats then no these wouldnt carry as its the same case if a model has frenzy

Q: Are upgrades bought for characters from army specific lists which
aren’t magic items or equipment (such as Vampiric Powers or
Deamonic Gifts) special rules? (p66)
A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise in an entry.

jthdotcom
05-11-2010, 10:06
Are challenge fighters not effectively removed from the unit to fight the challenge? Thus enabling the units to fight each other?

For example, I have a unit of knights with a khorne hero onn juggernaut on one end, he challenges, and the oppositions BSB accepts, who is on the other end of their front rank. They need to be in base contact to fight, so which one moves to meet the other? Where is their new position within the unit allowing them to actually fight? Surely they need to count as not in the unit while they are fighting the challenge, therefore allowing normal rank and file to count as being in base to base in the position where the characters fill

Frosty_TK
05-11-2010, 11:21
That would be a house rule. You have to bring characters in contact. If you are unable to do so, they fight nontheless. But the model still needs it's space, so no. You don't get another rank and file model to attack if there's a challenge.


But I've got a nice question:
A hero slays a champion of lesser initiative in a challenge. When it's the units turn to strike, surely one rank and file model would step up to replace the champion. Now, can all those in contact now strike at the character which is no longer in the challenge, or does the challenge continue until the end of the combat phase, allthough the champion is allready dead?

Archangelion
06-11-2010, 03:09
That is somewhat interesting. I always played it as though the challange lasted for that round of combat, and thus never considered the possibility that the challange ended when one of the models died before the round of combat was over. I am sure there is RAW reasoning behind this believe, but I am to tired to look throught the rulebook at the moment.

Scriboergosum
06-11-2010, 03:24
But I've got a nice question:
A hero slays a champion of lesser initiative in a challenge. When it's the units turn to strike, surely one rank and file model would step up to replace the champion. Now, can all those in contact now strike at the character which is no longer in the challenge, or does the challenge continue until the end of the combat phase, allthough the champion is allready dead?

The rank and file cannot attack the character, p. 102 under the heading "Fighting a Challenge". Look at the very last sentence.

Archangelion
06-11-2010, 11:34
Ah, I knew it was probably in there somewhere! Thanks Scriboergosum.

Frosty_TK
07-11-2010, 19:24
Yes, thank you very much!

GrimmHammer
08-11-2010, 13:21
In 7th it was specific that models couldn't swing in if they were considered in base to base with a character in a challenge- however it is no longer in the rules(that I can find) and since the character has joined the unit he is in my opinion part of the unit. So I would say that the models considered in base to base with the character - can indeed have their attacks against the unit(not character in challenge). It is silly that they wouldn't be able to.

GrimmHammer
08-11-2010, 14:32
Here some more to support my thoughts- In the faq it says this
Q: After accepting a challenge must the challenged model always
move into base contact with the enemy model that issued the
challenge? (p102)
A: If the challenged model is on his own then he must move
into base contact. If the challenged model is in a unit he must
move as long as it does not require leaving his unit. Where it is
not possible for base contact to be made then leave the models
where they are and simply assume that the two models are in
base contact.

Kinda supports it in a round about way - that the two models engaged r with eachother leaving the rest of the units to fight amongst themselves.

Archangelion
09-11-2010, 09:53
Heh, however, you still need to be in base to base to attack. And if they are only in base to base with the character, and they may not strike blows against the character, then they may not strike blows. (page 102 last sentance of the last paragraph on the page)

GrimmHammer
09-11-2010, 10:32
The character is part of the unit right? So wouldn't it be directing attacks against the unit?

GrimmHammer
09-11-2010, 10:39
I found it - its on page 99 last paragraph, - this clears it up that they have to indeed attack the character unless they are touching the unit as well.

This makes monstrous infantry characters in units that much better i guess.

Archangelion
10-11-2010, 09:57
Good job GrimmHammer. Page 99 tells you that a model that is in base to base with a character must attack the character, and not the unit. It also states that a model in base to base with a unit must attack the unit, and not the character. Thus, a unit that has only a character in base to base with another unit's character cannot attack, because there are no models in base to base with either the unit or the character.

Furthur still on page 102 it states that a model that is not in a challange may not strike blows against a character in a challange. So even if there was a model in base to base with the character, they would be only able to attack that character still, but would also be unable to strike blows because that character is in a challange (if there is one, if there isn't a challange, they may only strike the character).