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frapermax
02-11-2010, 13:20
I'm not usually very negative, but this sub forum is losing it's viability imho.
I like reading novel army lists, preferably if they are accompanied by the strategies and tactics behind the choices.
I've been browsing this thread for a while now, and I see people asking for opinions on lists that are basically the same all the time. When someone posts an original list, all advice points them invariably in the direction of said standard list (e.g book of Hoeth HE).
What's the point of that? Just send a link to standard list HE, WoC or whatever
Maybe it would be far more interesting to talk about the weaknesses and strengths in the proposed lists, on how to use the selections presented... instead of just always telling posters to change x to stormbanner, add warlock with doom rocket, book of hoeth is a must etc.... All these standard changes are known to the posters, are boring and add nothing new. These things are no must at all, even at tournaments. You learn a lot more by trying to find solutions on the battlefield with non-standard lists.
Sorry if this bothers someone, it is just something that I noticed while browsing the army lists section
FPM

Steam_Giant
02-11-2010, 13:46
I suppose...

People post army lists:
* Because they are unaware of the current "Net hotness" and need an update on how to fit the cheese into their current model list.

* They are fighting against a particular army/build and want some advice from experienced generals.

* They want some human contact.

People post same old stuff:
* Because it involves the least amount of work (for example; explaining how to use units in synergy with one another)

* they havn't tried other army units as on paper they are rubbish, or the net tells them they are bad.



"Its not what you use, its the way that you use it"

I think all army lists should include a sample deployment, perhaps that would help clarify and generate more tactical discussions ?

CaptainFaramir
02-11-2010, 15:33
The problem is (and I suppose I am just as bad as the rest in this regard) is that people rarely ask for "themed" advice, or advice on how to USE their army. It is generally just "Is this army good" or "How can I make this army better."

Well, the answer is usually that there are some "efficient" builds for each race, which you have already alluded to, so if people ask "how do I make it better" the answer is to use some of those efficient builds.

When people say "I'm not losing the X" or "I love the Y model", then usually people avoid commenting on that. If people started asking, if I were using unit A and unit B, would they work well in synergy or is there a better unit combination I could use to achieve my objective, then people would probably respond to that in the way you suggest.

However, if someone asks "how can I make my elves uber competitive" you will get stock answers like, more Hoeth, less Silver Helms, more Eagles, etc.

Torpedo Vegas
02-11-2010, 16:52
The problem is (and I suppose I am just as bad as the rest in this regard) is that people rarely ask for "themed" advice, or advice on how to USE their army. It is generally just "Is this army good" or "How can I make this army better."

Well, the answer is usually that there are some "efficient" builds for each race, which you have already alluded to, so if people ask "how do I make it better" the answer is to use some of those efficient builds.

When people say "I'm not losing the X" or "I love the Y model", then usually people avoid commenting on that. If people started asking, if I were using unit A and unit B, would they work well in synergy or is there a better unit combination I could use to achieve my objective, then people would probably respond to that in the way you suggest.

However, if someone asks "how can I make my elves uber competitive" you will get stock answers like, more Hoeth, less Silver Helms, more Eagles, etc.
super this. I think if somebody wants to field a very fluffy army, they won't really care if it is competitive or not, just to see if it is fun. I tend to only post army lists if its either A) for a tournament, in which case I am trying to min/max and get a very effective build, and so is everyone else, so those lists will always look sorta similar because you are limited to picking the Magic items and units that are actually worth the points, or B) because I am building a new army I am unfamiliar with and therefore want advice on compositions or how to effectively use units.

And, in the spirit of Rules Lawyering, this IS the Army LIST sub-forum, the one for discussing tactics is one sub-forum over.

thesheriff
02-11-2010, 21:48
I have posted a forest spirit army list, a khorne daemons, a world eaters, flaggelent army list. And i find, that with such a unique set of army list, many people do not want to comment becuase of the limited options. However, with a beard list, everyone gets to have a good chinwag and go 'I think lash prince is really good too' and 'You know what, I was thinking teclis was amazing aswell'

On the other hand, people who are new, or unfamiliar with the current rules set because they are stuck in the time warp of a previous codex or army book edition. And, if your preparing for a tournament, and you want some advice within reason (not orders, see above), its very handy.

Eg; theres a differance between posting a HE list and everyone going 'Take teclis' instead say, 'Have you considerd teclis. If you dont want to use him, prehaps this would be a better choice that a prince and lv.2'. You get the gist.

Or even saying something (dare i say it) 'This might be good for the theme of your army'.

In the end, the army list forum is like marmite, you either love it, or you hate it. Or tahts my opinion.

But, interesting topic

Eternus
03-11-2010, 13:57
I've generally stopped posting lists, because I like themed lists and the answers I get are as per the OP's comments. Everyone has their own way of doing things, and advice on how to use what you have chosen would be more useful than just dismembering the list - but as mentioned, that's more of a tactics discussion.

Maybe lists would give a better idea of the planned use of units of they included the formation? So for example:

30 Skeleton Warriors, Spears, Full Command, Deployed 6x5?

frapermax
04-11-2010, 15:01
Maybe the Tactics Forum could have a(nother) subforum that goes something like this:
This is my list, how can I make it work? (vs different builds).
I'm under the impression the tactics part of the forum mainly discusses the usefulness of items, units or hero set-ups. I haven't seen much synergy, but that could be explained by the fact it is of course all on paper, without taking terrains or scenario's into consideration. Best tactics discussion can be had over a table with two deployed armies of course.
On a side note: There is/was this site lorenzowhfb that lend itself very well to this. Haven't been there for a while, but you could play WHFB games there. Their maps could be used to test out deployments and stuff.
I'll check if it still exists.
Thanks for all the comments
FPM

Eternus
04-11-2010, 19:23
I agree. I have wondered whether a section which is more like 'this is the list I used and it worked great vs ?' rather than 'will this work?' as well. Kinda like a resource base of tried and tested lists.