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Exo10
02-11-2010, 19:42
So i was wondering if a magic caster did an initiative spell test on the bell would it fail automatically or would i use the grey seers initiative. Also in combat do i move my pieces in front of the screaming bell to attack models or do they stay where they are and attack or do i just attack with the bell and rest of things in base contact with the enemy. Do doomwheels also fail initiative tests also?

Tallopolis
02-11-2010, 20:02
I was thinking something similar..... do screaming bells auto fail strength tests.... eg. dwellers?

theunwantedbeing
02-11-2010, 20:03
The rat ogre crew is in4, why wouldn't that get used?

Not sure what you mean with the other question.
You fight what is in base contact, the screaming bell is always placed in the front rank, so often some models will be forced to attack the bell (or the seer if he hasn't chosen to run to the top of it to "hide").

Exo10
02-11-2010, 20:24
So you dont fight with the unit pushing it. The reason i ask this is because chariots auto fail ini tests and i was wondering if the doomwheel does to, and the screaming bell

theunwantedbeing
02-11-2010, 20:26
Chariots don't auto fail initituive tests.

You fight the unit pushing if you are only in base contact with them.
You can choose to fight the unit or the bell if in contact with both.

Sounds like you need to learn the rules of warhammer, go play a few pick up games at your local store.
It'll be very helpful to give you a reasonable grasp of the basics and you can query them in person and they'll have a rulebook handy for you to check too.

Lord_Elric
02-11-2010, 20:54
If a Screaming bell is classed as a War Machine then i belive it fails all Char tests except T and Ld and unless the seer can leave the bell when its destroyed then hed go down with it unfortunately lol

Tregar
02-11-2010, 21:06
What if it's classed as an aubergine? The answer is just as relevant ;)

jaxom
02-11-2010, 21:20
Fortunately, the Screaming Bell is unique.

Lord_Elric
02-11-2010, 22:00
Fortunately, the Screaming Bell is unique.

Just because its unique doesnt mean it doesnt have a unit type a Cauldron of blood if unique but its still a Warmachine

Korraz
02-11-2010, 22:24
Wrong. The cauldron got errata'd from "Unique" to "Warmachine." "Unique" is a unit type.

theunwantedbeing
02-11-2010, 22:26
The screaming bell is not a war machine, nor is the plague furnace.

Lord_Elric
02-11-2010, 22:27
Just looked atskaven book and it states its a special kind of mount with combined stats of the bell and rat ogre so youd use the rat ogres Intiative silly as it seems really he must carry it out the way of oncoming purple suns

Bac5665
02-11-2010, 22:33
It's never silly to play by the rules.

What's silly would be a rule system where your 200+ point centerpiece unit can't defend itself against one of the most common powerful effects in the game.

And for some one who is trying to answer questions in a rules forum, you don't seem to have read the BRB.

Kevlar
02-11-2010, 22:53
Screaming bell, doomwheel, and furnace are all unfortunately not classified as war machines. They most likely should be, but until such time they only auto fail leadership tests, since they have leadership "-". (Sorry doomwheel excluded in the leadership thing).

Lord_Elric
02-11-2010, 23:08
It's never silly to play by the rules.

What's silly would be a rule system where your 200+ point centerpiece unit can't defend itself against one of the most common powerful effects in the game.

And for some one who is trying to answer questions in a rules forum, you don't seem to have read the BRB.

O im sorry this directed at me is it hmmm must be

Your clarification of it not being silly to play by the rules is true its not silly to play by the rules however that doesnt exclude the rules from being silly themselves which the idea of a rat ogres intiative saving what is essentialy a big piece of wood from being sucked into a vortex, I never disputed the rules merely the fluff behind them..

Ill also state that my first post was an assumption not playing skaven i havent memorized the rules and considering both screaming bell and cauldron have UN in the BRB ref section, yet CoB stating WM in its own profile is more than enough ground to assume that the same thing would be possible for the screaming bell, alas I check the armybook and saw no such thing so corrected my answer RAW.

Exo10
03-11-2010, 01:04
Its unfortunate that boston and where i live does not have a GW store thank you for the help with the rules this time my highelf friend will not tell me they auto fail initiative tests. Also his mage cant cast in close combat can it?

theunwantedbeing
03-11-2010, 01:12
Its unfortunate that boston and where i live does not have a GW store thank you for the help with the rules this time my highelf friend will not tell me they auto fail initiative tests. Also his mage cant cast in close combat can it?

War machines auto-fail characteristic tests that aren't strength or toughness tests. Page 108 of the rulebook

Mages can cast in combat, although certain spells aren't castable while in combat. Page 31 of the rulebook

Two easily answered questions if you look in the rulebook for the answers, not online.

Exo10
03-11-2010, 01:37
Doomwheel and screaming bells are not warmachines though

Kevlar
03-11-2010, 01:50
How dare he ask a rules question in the rules forum!

Darkspear
03-11-2010, 02:26
What's silly would be a rule system where your 200+ point centerpiece unit can't defend itself against one of the most common powerful effects in the game.



This is the weakness of the 8th edition anyway. You have 300-400 point models dying to a dice roll.

As many people said, we can either not take such an expensive model or take 8th edition less seriously as it is too random for serious/competitive play.

Archangelion
03-11-2010, 02:49
This is the weakness of the 8th edition anyway. You have 300-400 point models dying to a dice roll.

I have seen entire armies die due to dice rolls. That is what warhammer is, a giant game of craps/yatzee/ect. with a bit of chess-esc-ness to it.

Lord_Elric
03-11-2010, 08:07
This is the weakness of the 8th edition anyway. You have 300-400 point models dying to a dice roll.

As many people said, we can either not take such an expensive model or take 8th edition less seriously as it is too random for serious/competitive play.

And yet Purple sun in 8th should be called Purple sun of Xeres's little brother when compared with its predescesor

KronusDaSneaky
03-11-2010, 12:41
So i was wondering if a magic caster did an initiative spell test on the bell would it fail automatically or would i use the grey seers initiative. Also in combat do i move my pieces in front of the screaming bell to attack models or do they stay where they are and attack or do i just attack with the bell and rest of things in base contact with the enemy. Do doomwheels also fail initiative tests also?

No. Use the highest initiative of the model's involved. Only war machines fail characteristic tests (save T and LD) automatically and both the doomwheel and the bell are classified as unique rather then war machines. Use the GS I of 5 for the Bell and the crews of 4 for the DW

Lord of Divine Slaughter
03-11-2010, 12:56
This is the weakness of the 8th edition anyway. You have 300-400 point models dying to a dice roll.

Well, the game is based on dice, so its pretty natural to use the little gadgets to determine such effects. My 10 point elves also die from dice rolls, so I see no reason other models should be excempt from this.

I find it to be a strength of 8th. that nothing is safe from harm, and you can't rely on the 'deathstars' of old.

Lord_Elric
03-11-2010, 13:16
No. Use the highest initiative of the model's involved. Only war machines fail characteristic tests (save T and LD) automatically and both the doomwheel and the bell are classified as unique rather then war machines. Use the GS I of 5 for the Bell and the crews of 4 for the DW

Condering the Screaming bell is treated as a mount (that has its own combined profile) and both grey seer and bell can be hit seperately then you would test both for the grey seer and the bell seperately using the bells (the mount") own intiative wich would be 4

KronusDaSneaky
03-11-2010, 15:39
Condering the Screaming bell is treated as a mount (that has its own combined profile) and both grey seer and bell can be hit seperately then you would test both for the grey seer and the bell seperately using the bells (the mount") own intiative wich would be 4

Lord Elric may be right but when I tried to confirm this matter I was left a little uncertain. The template rules which most I tests benefit from would usually lead to tests on ridden monsters as well as the character (pg 105) but the Bell is not a Ridden Monster, its a unique mount and there are no detail rules that state how they are effected. Add to the fact that nearly all I test the model, and the model is the screaming bell & the grey seer combined it makes it all the more confusing. I therefore want to know the views of others on this situation. A screaming bell is easy enough to understand regarding shooting and spells that work like shooting but against spells that require a test its not clear at all. I would hazard that as a single model only 1 test must per model and you can choose the highest I. Thoughts?

crazywhiteboydance
03-11-2010, 15:55
I was under the impression that as rider & mount the Grey Seer & his Bell use the best stat they have available to any characteristic test, so I think you're on the money there Kronus.

Tzeentch Lover
03-11-2010, 16:07
The screaming bell auto-fails Init tests because it has a "-" initiative and is classified as "unique".

It can't use the rat-ogre crew's Init because it is not a chariot.

It can't use the grey seer's Init because it is not a monster(thereby making it a ridden monster).

crazywhiteboydance
03-11-2010, 17:03
The Sreaming Bell is a mount that is unique. Mounts & riders use the best stat available for the test in question.

Exo10
03-11-2010, 18:52
Can i get a page number in the rule book if anyone knows where it says this?

Korraz
03-11-2010, 19:27
I think he refers to PG 10, Characteristic Tests.

After some pondering, thinking and (fruitless) flicking through the rule book, I've come to agree with the "Use the I of the Rat Ogre"-Crowd. It is a single model with several different stats in the same characteristic. Thus, you use the highest one, which is the I of the crew.

Exo10
03-11-2010, 19:37
What about the doomwheel does it use the warlocks ini and what about the LD does it auto fail that

Korraz
03-11-2010, 20:16
Always the highest.

Kevlar
03-11-2010, 21:13
What about the doomwheel does it use the warlocks ini and what about the LD does it auto fail that

No the doomwheel doesn't auto fail leadership like the bell or furnace. The doomwheel is a single model, not a model with a separate character riding it.

Bac5665
03-11-2010, 22:16
No the doomwheel doesn't auto fail leadership like the bell or furnace. The doomwheel is a single model, not a model with a separate character riding it.

Have you read this thread, or the BRB?

The Bell/Furnace uses the Ld of the rider/rat ogre/Grey Seer.

Lord_Elric
03-11-2010, 22:19
Have you read this thread, or the BRB?

The Bell/Furnace uses the Ld of the rider/rat ogre/Grey Seer.
Whats does this have todo with the doomwheel?

Kevlar
04-11-2010, 02:05
Have you read this thread, or the BRB?

The Bell/Furnace uses the Ld of the rider/rat ogre/Grey Seer.

According to the official skaven FAQ the bell/furnace have leadership zero. Any attacks that make it take an unmodified leadership test (spirit leech, blade of realities) will pretty much instantly kill it. Well maybe not spirit leech since it will get its ward save.

KronusDaSneaky
04-11-2010, 10:53
It is indeed vulnerable to ld test weps and spells but with a 4+ ward save and MR 2 most of these will bounce off in any case

theorox
04-11-2010, 11:34
What Initiative test is it? If it's falling down a hole, of course it auto-fails as it can't jump away. :)

Theo

Korraz
04-11-2010, 12:28
Wrong. The crew prevents that.

KronusDaSneaky
04-11-2010, 13:42
Theorox a Screaming Bell is not a warmachine but a unique model and thus does not fail I tests automatically, rather its uses its crew's I

Exo10
05-11-2010, 00:14
And the screaming bell you roll 1 dice the first turn in the magic phase then in the subsequent ones you can roll up to 3 right?