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Psygon
03-11-2010, 04:19
Could someone please explain exactly what this is and what its uses are in the warhammer world? If the name is any sort of description (and also the context I have heard it used in), it sounds like you use one unit to change the facing of an enemy unit by forcing a charge.

Yet, with the new charge rules (reform ability, distance of a failed charge) it does not seem as if there is as much of a use for it.

Could someone please enlighten me?

Isabel
03-11-2010, 06:43
It used to be a common tactic in 7th edition; not so much anymore. You put it correctly, throw a bait unit out in front of the enemy unit you want to draw out, usually a fast cav or cheap throw away unit. Entice them to charge then flee, usually at an angle that will expose their flank to a counter charge from your hard hitter. In the current edition, you can redirect a charge if your first target flees, making it less useful.

Da GoBBo
03-11-2010, 18:18
There is a second way of "redirecting" though. Block a unit under a certain angel, more or less forcing to charge, don't flee and have your cheap unit trampled, hope the unit overruns (not a given these days). The least it does is act as a speedbump, angle that unit and hopefully expose a flank. This costs you a unit, but it was obviously a cheap one. Since you see a lot of big blocks these days, it might even be more worthwhile than in 7th.

Vsurma
03-11-2010, 19:48
The opponent can destroy said unit, not overrun and reform for free instead, facing you again.

this does work against knights though, as you can now counter charge them, still in the front if its a 1v1 situation but at least they lost their charge bonus.

If you have very cheap units you can still do this to some effect.

SAy a unit of elves or bloodletters etc you don't want running into you very fast, they move 10" a turn, if you set up a unit 1" away from them at an unfavorable angle, they can at most charge and reform, forfeiting a turns worth of moving, or they can overrun at the poor angle.

You really do need cheap units to get much use out of it though.

Alternatively you can flee, hopefully get away and force them to have a failed charge, Average move on a failed charge is likely to be about half their march movement so you gain here as well. In this case you won't want to move to 1" away but maybe 6" or so for a M5 unit, basically anything that will give you more than even odds of getting away and always at a favorable angle to your counter charges.

sulla
04-11-2010, 05:21
The opponent can destroy said unit, not overrun and reform for free instead, facing you again.

this does work against knights though, as you can now counter charge them, still in the front if its a 1v1 situation but at least they lost their charge bonus.

If you have very cheap units you can still do this to some effect.

.1) If he is frenzied, he has to overrun. Good for those all frenzied WoC armies you see these days.


2) For the vast majority of opponents, who aren't frenzied, the unit has precisely 2 choices. Either overrun/pursue at the silly angle of your bait unit, exposing a flank to a countercharge, or hold and reform, meaning a net gain of the one inch they charged between them and the bait unit for that turn's movement. Sometimes, I'd be more than willing to pay the 55pts for 5 harpies to restrict my opponent to 1" of movement that turn. Imagine having a spell or magic item that could do that... how much would you expect it to cost?

cobra0
05-11-2010, 12:56
Allright!

As a Skaven player I can have 15p Characters (Engineer, non-wizard) in 2.5p/Model units (Slaves with Spears).

Can this work with a single Character?

Like: Leaving the unit, I place it at 45 degrees to the unit, and fire off a One-Use-Only Magic Item (worth more than the Character). Then flee from the charge, which must re-direct into the Slaves' spears.

freddieyu
05-11-2010, 13:07
Allright!

As a Skaven player I can have 15p Characters (Engineer, non-wizard) in 2.5p/Model units (Slaves with Spears).

Can this work with a single Character?

Like: Leaving the unit, I place it at 45 degrees to the unit, and fire off a One-Use-Only Magic Item (worth more than the Character). Then flee from the charge, which must re-direct into the Slaves' spears.

You cannot flee and stand at shoot at the same time, it is 1 or the other...

BUT, for some armies (like goblins) using cheap single characters as speed bumps has merits...hmmm.....

For me, skink skirmishers have this role in my lizard army, while empire detachments have this duty in my empire lists...

bert n ernie
05-11-2010, 13:50
Quick question. I know that you can still re-direct Frenzied troops because they must chase, but don't troops with Hatred have the same rule too?

Kirbinator
05-11-2010, 16:30
Quick question. I know that you can still re-direct Frenzied troops because they must chase, but don't troops with Hatred have the same rule too?
Not any more, that was a 7th edition rule.

theorox
05-11-2010, 17:11
But frenzied units still do it? Cool.

Theo

Vsurma
05-11-2010, 18:57
1) If he is frenzied, he has to overrun. Good for those all frenzied WoC armies you see these days.


2) For the vast majority of opponents, who aren't frenzied, the unit has precisely 2 choices. Either overrun/pursue at the silly angle of your bait unit, exposing a flank to a countercharge, or hold and reform, meaning a net gain of the one inch they charged between them and the bait unit for that turn's movement. Sometimes, I'd be more than willing to pay the 55pts for 5 harpies to restrict my opponent to 1" of movement that turn. Imagine having a spell or magic item that could do that... how much would you expect it to cost?

Mystyfying miasma, first spell in the lore of shadow 5+ to cast :)
Bit less reliable of course.

Vsurma
05-11-2010, 19:00
1) If he is frenzied, he has to overrun. Good for those all frenzied WoC armies you see these days.


2) For the vast majority of opponents, who aren't frenzied, the unit has precisely 2 choices. Either overrun/pursue at the silly angle of your bait unit, exposing a flank to a countercharge, or hold and reform, meaning a net gain of the one inch they charged between them and the bait unit for that turn's movement. Sometimes, I'd be more than willing to pay the 55pts for 5 harpies to restrict my opponent to 1" of movement that turn. Imagine having a spell or magic item that could do that... how much would you expect it to cost?

Good point about the frenzy but I think it is less useful against WOC that will be throwing about 18 WS5 init5 S5 attacks your way.

You need a redirecting unit that will have at least 1 model left after said combat. A unit of 11+ skinks might if they are lucky manage to have 1 left alive, you would need a bigger unit for a better chance of success, and a champ, starts to get a tad expensive.

Normal non skirmishing skinks almost seem better at this as they are cheaper and get parry but then they have less of a role in the army overall.

Still, if I had 15 point characters in my army I might just take a tonne of them, slow down enemy units to 1" a turn with a line of these guys eheh.

sulla
05-11-2010, 20:19
Good point about the frenzy but I think it is less useful against WOC that will be throwing about 18 WS5 init5 S5 attacks your way.

You need a redirecting unit that will have at least 1 model left after said combat. A unit of 11+ skinks might if they are lucky manage to have 1 left alive, you would need a bigger unit for a better chance of success, and a champ, starts to get a tad expensive.

Normal non skirmishing skinks almost seem better at this as they are cheaper and get parry but then they have less of a role in the army overall.

Still, if I had 15 point characters in my army I might just take a tonne of them, slow down enemy units to 1" a turn with a line of these guys eheh.The most important rule for frenzied guys is don't charge them. If they charge you, they must overrun. Cannot reform. So for this; the cheaper the unit, the better.

Those 11 skinks have a better option vs frenzied troops; flankcharge the frenzied unit in a formation 1 or 2 wide. You will lose combat, but some skinks will survive and the frenzied block have to pursue, giving your slann another 2 turns of dwellers.

Vsurma
06-11-2010, 00:48
that is a good strat, nice one. I had not thought of it

freddieyu
06-11-2010, 06:10
The most important rule for frenzied guys is don't charge them. If they charge you, they must overrun. Cannot reform. So for this; the cheaper the unit, the better.

Those 11 skinks have a better option vs frenzied troops; flankcharge the frenzied unit in a formation 1 or 2 wide. You will lose combat, but some skinks will survive and the frenzied block have to pursue, giving your slann another 2 turns of dwellers.

this is a good one!!!!