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Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
03-11-2010, 04:23
Hi All,

Looking to gets some constructive criticism for this army as well as some tactical advice against Ogres.

Lords:
Prince: 450 pts.
Equipment: Great weapon & shield
Magic items: Star Lance, Armor of Fortune, Dragonbane Gem, & Potion of Foolhardiness
Mount: Griffon

4th Lvl. Archmage: 295 pts. (Lore of Shadows)
Magic Items: Seerstaff of Saphery & Ironcurse Icon

Heroes:
Noble Army Standard Bearer: 168 pts.
Equipment: Great weapon
Magic Items: Armor of Caledor & Guardian Phoenix

Noble: 147 pts.
Equipment: hand weapon, additional hand weapon, dragon armor, & shield
Magic Items: Potion of Strength & Temakador’s Gauntlets

Mage: 185 pts. (Lore of Fire or High Magic)
Magic Items: Silver Wand & Reaver Bow

Core:
Lothern Sea Guard Regiment: 285 pts.
20 Lothern Sea Guards with full command and kit.

Spearman Regiment: 250 pts.
25 Spearmen with full command.

Archer Regiment: 220 pts.
20 Archers

Special:
White Lion of Chrace Regiment: 395 pts.
21 White Lions with full command.
Standard bearer equipped with Banner of Sorcery

2x Sword Masters of Hoeth Regiment: 150 pts. per unit (300 pts. total)
10 Sword Masters

Ellryian Reavers: 85 pts.
5 Ellryian Reavers armed with light armor, spears, & bows.
Sub-total: 105 pts.

Rare:
4x Great Eagles: 200 pts.

Total: 3000 pts.

Basic plan is to try and roll up a flank with the General, WLs, Swordmasters, & Eagles while I firebase with the LSG, Archers, & Spearmen (assuming it isn't the watch tower mission). I believe I'll be facing at least one gnoblar launcher, a Giant, several regiments of Ogres (at least 3), and maybe 2 or 3 large blocks gnoblars plus the army characters.

I don't have much in way of replacement figures for regimental swaps (I can field additional Spearmen, Archer, & LSG Regiments as well as more Swordmasters, Tiranoc Charioteers, & Reavers but I don't have Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guards, or RBTs). I'm open to character swaps though (although the Noble with the additional hand weapon is a sentimental favorite of mine) and kit configurations.

*Edit: No special characters suggestions please for character swaps.*

Thanks to anyone that replies.

Wyrmnax
03-11-2010, 18:12
Quoting you on things that could be improved...



Lords:
Prince: 450 pts.
Equipment: Great weapon & shield
Magic items: Star Lance, Armor of Fortune, Dragonbane Gem, & Potion of Foolhardiness
Mount: Griffon

With the rules on 8th edition you will never use the Great Weapon since you have a magic weapon. Either drop the GW or drop the Lance. Id say drop the Lance - its just too expensive for the small bonus over a GW.

Its my personal opinion that the grifon is overexpensive, but like i said, personal opinion.

EDIT: Now that i see it, you could consider dropping your lv2 mage and instead of this prince take Eltharion + stormwing. It gives you pratically the same thing you have on this lord plus the level 2 mage you have on your heros for just a few points more than the prince alone.



Noble: 147 pts.
Equipment: hand weapon, additional hand weapon, dragon armor, & shield
Magic Items: Potion of Strength & Temakador’s Gauntlets

Elven nobles are very frail, especially when not mounted and withouth the armour of caledor + ward save. The oponent can simply refuse a challenge and direct his normal ogre attacks against the lord and you just buried 147 points. I know you said its a sentimental choice, but realize that he will probably be dead very fast.



Core:
Lothern Sea Guard Regiment: 285 pts.
20 Lothern Sea Guards with full command and kit.

Spearman Regiment: 250 pts.
25 Spearmen with full command.

The sea guard really should be a bit bigger. The spearmen could use being a bit bigger too. You will want 5 or 6 wide, and that the unit is 4+ ranks depth for a few rounds of combat to get the best potential out of it. You are paying for those spears, make use of them.



Archer Regiment: 265 pts.
20 Archers with full command and kit.

I am strongly against archers in this edition. For 1 extra point you could get Sea Guard, that are equal at shooting as archers and are much better at melee because of the spears.



2x Sword Masters of Hoeth Regiment: 150 pts. per unit (300 pts. total)
10 Sword Masters

You will want your swordsmaster unit a bit larger than that. You probably want to deploy them 7 wide, as they are very killy. Also, 10 elves in a unit mean that if the enemy sneeze their way he just got free points.



Ellryian Reavers: 85 pts.
5 Ellryian Reavers armed with light armor, spears, & bows.
Sub-total: 105 pts.

What do you plan to do with them? Hunt leadbelchers ( who are ogres, dont forget)? You have enough eagles to deal with the eventual scrap launchers already, i dont see how you are going to be able to use reavers


Overall i think you have a bit of a problem - you are using 40% of your points on your lords/heroes choices. You are very low on your model count for a 3k points game, even while playing with HE.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
04-11-2010, 02:15
Thanks for your critique. I'd like to address a few of the points you made.


Quoting you on things that could be improved...

With the rules on 8th edition you will never use the Great Weapon since you have a magic weapon. Either drop the GW or drop the Lance. Id say drop the Lance - its just too expensive for the small bonus over a GW.

Its my personal opinion that the grifon is overexpensive, but like i said, personal opinion.

EDIT: Now that i see it, you could consider dropping your lv2 mage and instead of this prince take Eltharion + stormwing. It gives you pratically the same thing you have on this lord plus the level 2 mage you have on your heros for just a few points more than the prince alone.

Two points about the great weapon & the star lance. I think this is the only loophole about using a magic weapon over special close combat weapon for HE armies. The Star Lance can only be used in the first round of close combat and only if the figure is mounted and is charging since it follows all the normal rules for Lances. In addition if the Griffon is killed out from under the Prince then he gets to use the great weapon anyways. I perfer not use special characters if at all possible as my opponent isn't using them either.



Elven nobles are very frail, especially when not mounted and withouth the armour of caledor + ward save. The oponent can simply refuse a challenge and direct his normal ogre attacks against the lord and you just buried 147 points. I know you said its a sentimental choice, but realize that he will probably be dead very fast..

Well if he refuses a challange then I can nominate a character in the unit to go to the back of the unit so he can't attack with him or use that figure's Ld for break tests. I'm not too afraid of the noble dying in close combat as he has a decent ward save against STR 4 attacks. Even then I would have probably placed him with the White Lions alongside the BSB.



The sea guard really should be a bit bigger. The spearmen could use being a bit bigger too. You will want 5 or 6 wide, and that the unit is 4+ ranks depth for a few rounds of combat to get the best potential out of it. You are paying for those spears, make use of them..

I can see your point about this but the spearmen will be there for supporting or intercepting redirected charges should I feel the need to flee. the Mindrazor spell should offset the "low" amounts of attacks. However I'll look into increasing their numbers.



I am strongly against archers in this edition. For 1 extra point you could get Sea Guard, that are equal at shooting as archers and are much better at melee because of the spears..

Well I think a lot of players discount archers because of STR 3 & no AP but against lightly armored ogres and gnoblars I think having the ability to thin down their ranks with bow fire is a good idea since I don't have any RBTs.



You will want your swordsmaster unit a bit larger than that. You probably want to deploy them 7 wide, as they are very killy. Also, 10 elves in a unit mean that if the enemy sneeze their way he just got free points..

The swordmasters are there to tarpit units so the White Lions & the General can smash the units up in close combat. I know full well they are going to die but if they take at least 15 guys with them in the regiment they tarpit that will make it that much easier wipe out the regiments with my follow up attackers.



What do you plan to do with them? Hunt leadbelchers ( who are ogres, dont forget)? You have enough eagles to deal with the eventual scrap launchers already, i dont see how you are going to be able to use reavers.

Actually they can be used to provide flanking/rear CR bonuses with a coordinated charge with the WLs & SMs. Plus they can additional bowfire into any units the LSG and Archers are hitting. I know they aren't as killy as Dragon Princes but they do have tactical advantages that neither the DPs or the Silver Helms have.



Overall i think you have a bit of a problem - you are using 40% of your points on your lords/heroes choices. You are very low on your model count for a 3k points game, even while playing with HE.

Well I don't think the Ogres aren't going to outnumber my army by that much so I'm not concerned with numbers. Do you have any effective tactical advice how I can use this army?

Wyrmnax
04-11-2010, 13:19
About the lord - You are then paying for the Star Lance for +1S on the first round of combat? The lance is hardly worth it when it gives the full bonus, paying in full for it to only provide +1S over what a Great Weapon would have is very expensive.

If you have more spearmen on the unit you can get a full 6-wide turn of mindrazored attacks. 24 S8 attacks would murder anything they are in combat with. You want mindrazor to not just even out the things, you want it to be enough to completely murder whatever unit they are in combat with.

About the archers - the point isnt the low S and no armor piercing - although bowshooting is not really strong against ogres. The point is that for 1 point more you could have a unit that is exactly as effective at range AND is twice as effective in combat ( Sea Guard )

Well, ogres will probably not outnumber you, but if your oponent takes a troop heavy approach he might just have too many models for you to deal with.

General tatics against ogres? It depends a lot on what he brings and what scenario you guys fight, the only thing that is really specific against ogers is to avoid getting charged because the impact hits hurt. Especially when you are T3 5+ all around. Pretty much everything else are thing you should do against any army ( Dispel buffs, shoot up units to soften them, kill stone throwers asap, flank whatever you can )

Oh. And the tyrant is a murderer. But it is very worth to get both him and the butchers killed. The tyrant because he gives decent ld to a army that otherwise has sucky ld, and the butchers because gut magic buffs will hurt you.

Pulstar
04-11-2010, 13:51
Just some random thoughts.

1) Lord on Griffon. Drop the Star Lance.

2) Lv 4 Mage. Like the shadow lore. Maybe add the robes the protects him vs normal attacks. (use the points from the lance)

3) The other heroes are fine. I don't love the bow on the BS 4 mage, but it has it's uses.
I like to give my lv2 mage the seerstaff so he gets the spells he needs. (Sword and firecage in this case) and the give the lv 4 the wand (all the shadow spells are good)

4) Core units are fine, but I would split the 20 archers into two units of 10. Upping the numbers of guys in the spear unit makes them a better tar pit and a better target for mindrazor.

5) Special. I would combine the SM into either 1 unit of 20 with command, or try and find the points for two units of 14 (7x2) These are hammers not anvils.

6) That's a nice flock of eagles.

Ney
04-11-2010, 14:06
My advice is also to drop the starlance (it does seem worthless now that GW gets +2S mounted). And you really ought to beef up some of those core units. One hit with a scraplauncher and they're almost out of combat. 8th edition is (imho) as much about point denial as killing the enemy, and 20 elfs doesnt stand up long against ogres if they are not buffed.

Some tactical advice:
1) Dont discount your bowmen, you wound on 5+ and he will at most have 5+ AS against shooting, so massed shots at a single unit can really cripple it.
2) don't be too afraid of his giant, it dies easily and isnt stubborn.
3) remember you can dispell his buffs on 7+ in your magic phase.
4) beware the Tyrant, if he challenges you you probably does multiple wounds ;)
5) get your White Lions into combat fast with ogres, he will try his hardest to tarpit them with gnoblars or shoot them up somehow, ogres really really do not like white lions, consider deploying them 8 wide for maximum effectiveness.
6) beef the swordmasters to at least 14, and rather 18 and deploy them 8 wide, they chop up ogres bad as well, but mind the impacthits.
7) kills his Battle Standard and do it fast!

Remember 6(surviving) regular bulls will on average deal about 10 wounds(with -2AS) on your elfs on a charge, so small units will quickly see you outnumbered and without steadfast.

If I was your opponent at 3k you wouldnt see units smaller than 9 ogres strong, and probably charging on turn 2 if you are not careful.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
05-11-2010, 10:18
Thanks everyone for the replies so far (also thanks for the tactics tips from Wyrmnax & Ney).

@ Wyrmnax: Concerning the star lance it would have been a STR 7 & 5 attacks (the PoFH) assuming I get the charge first against the target figure / unit (hopefully a character) getting no AS for attacks that wounds while I get ASF/re-rolls to hit in addition to the Griffon's attacks & thunderstomp. I think it's would be worth the 45 pts. with that combo set up. However since I've gotten 3 NO votes against the Lance idea I decided to take all of the advice given so far and change up the army list a bit:

Lords:
Prince: 450 pts.
Equipment: Great weapon & Shield
Magic items: Armor of Fortune, Talisman of Saphery, & Other Trickster’s Shard
Mount: Griffon

4th Lvl. Archmage: 300 pts. (Lore of Shadows)
Magic Items: Silver Wand & Talisman of Endurance


Heroes:
Noble Army Standard Bearer: 168 pts.
Equipment: great weapon
Magic Items: Armor of Caledor & Guardian Phoenix

2nd. Lvl. Mage: 170 pts. (Lore of Fire)
Magic Items: Seerstaff of Saphery & Ironcurse Icon

Core:
Lothern Sea Guard Regiment: 365 pts.
25 Lothern Sea Guards with full command & kit.
Standard bearer equipped with Standard of Discipline

Spearman Regiment: 295 pts.
30 Spearman with full command

Archer Regiment: 125 pts.
10 Archers (including standard bearer & musician) armed with full kit.


Special:
White Lion of Chrace Regiment: 440 pts.
24 White Lions with full command
Standard bearer equipped with Banner of Sorcery

Sword Masters of Hoeth Regiment: 232 pts.
Bladelord & 13 Sword Masters.
Bladelord equipped with Talisman of Loec.

3x Tiranoc Chariots: 255 pts.

Rare:
4x Great Eagles: 200 pts. total

Total: 3000 pts.

I'm planning on the same basic deployment but with a fast hammer approach to rolling up the flank.

The 4th. Lvl. mage will Mindrazor the sea guard (with str 9 thanks to the magic banner), spearmen, & white lions in the magic phases depending on whose in close combat & while casting Withering on units for the archers to fire at (hopefully I do get these spells) while the 2nd lvl. mage cast Fulminating Flame Cage on units to keep them in place for my rolling "hammer" units to hit and cast Flaming Sword on the Archers or White Lions since he'll be providing them with additional shooting protection through the use of the Ironcurse Icon.

I've included 3 Tiranoc chariots for some (hopefully large amount of) impact damage and additional shooting at range with the Great Eagles set on warmachine hunting duties or holding up gnoblar hordes in a pinch.

Sword Masters & White Lions will work in coordination to chop through regiments with the General pitching in where he can.

grhino
05-11-2010, 13:42
What about just getting a nice big block of 50 spearmen in there? They would be steadfast and would throw a ******** of attacks against the ogres... only a few would survive against them if they charge them. Although getting rid of ogre characters can be difficult, making them run for it is the most effective way. Any swordmaster or white lion unit would do great against them as well. Don't know about the chariots though... when grouped, they may work well.