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imtheman
03-11-2010, 21:06
If you have heard of the Hrud, then you are probably fairly advanced in terms of your knowledge of warhammer 40k. i am thinking about starting a hrud army, essentially played as space skaven however, the xenology image released by games workshop contradicts the old "other dangerous aliens" in which it is essentially a space skaven.
http://www.warhammer.cz/img/Clanky/Hrud.jpg this too me at least looks like a rat thing with a hood and a weird gun thing... im not an expert, but thats a rat tail coming out if ive ever seen one.
but the new picture released looks like ...well.. see for yourself http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/3/3b/Hrud.jpg
its like a giant alien humanoid peice of snot..
WHAT SHOULD I DO? which hrud do i base it around. they are described as a nocturnal tunneling race, that rarely leaves the ground. they also are described as an infestation. this right there sounds like a description of skaven, and seems as though skaven were planned to become a 40k army, but this new picture says otherwise. i would rather make a skaven army then a "bendy" army as they are now nicknamed, but i dont want to generate completely false fluff... what do i do?

Lord Damocles
04-11-2010, 09:30
Hrud were never 'space Skaven'.

Hrud as 'space Skaven' was a conclusion reached (jumped to) by people looking at the image in the 3rd ed. Rulebook (pg.116), and as such has never been anything more than fan fiction.
That 'tail' could be anything - tail? wire/cable? tentacle? trailing detritus?

MagosHereticus
04-11-2010, 09:47
the second picture is an artists impression of a near mythical being, it looks nothing like the revolting corpse on the dissection table

Hendarion
04-11-2010, 10:06
Yea, MagosHereticus, but it is official and direct GW material.

Lord Damocles
04-11-2010, 10:16
While the Xenology artist's impression may not be 100% accurate, it isn't a million miles away from what's on the dissection slab.

After all, the dissected specimen has undergone, 'extreme decomposition of body. Liquefaction of upper dermis and musculature occured immediately following death' (Xenology Hrud Dissection Report).

Lord Malorne
04-11-2010, 10:39
Basing an army on hrud does not really work, they would not engage in battle like a normal 40k army and not in numbers.

MagosHereticus
04-11-2010, 10:44
Yea, MagosHereticus, but it is official and direct GW material.

i suppose you consider the diagrams of orks, tyranids, eldar and tau official and direct material, but what does that mean? the context is clear in each of those instances that they are caricaturisation of those creators passed on human perceptions

(the best part is they all like like the cartoonish early 90s versions of the models :p grinning gaunts were my favourite, so were silly bolter and axe orks)

edit- sorry i was think of the imperial infantrymans uplifting primer but forgot to say it


While the Xenology artist's impression may not be 100% accurate, it isn't a million miles away from what's on the dissection slab.

After all, the dissected specimen has undergone, 'extreme decomposition of body. Liquefaction of upper dermis and musculature occured immediately following death' (Xenology Hrud Dissection Report).

the based on the skeletal structure of the corpse, it looks physique and posture is nothing like the picture, what is alike is it's smelly revolting flesh


Basing an army on hrud does not really work, they would not engage in battle like a normal 40k army and not in numbers.

cleansing hrud warrens has been mentioned in the IG book i think and white dwarf material relating to the mordant acid dogs regiments

Sephiroth
04-11-2010, 11:42
Judging by the creature rapidly putrefying on the dissection table, it had a snout (skull shape suggests this), large black orbs, armoured shoulder-plating, and no tail (unless they decayed first).

The thing to remember about the second picture, is that it's an artist's impression of an un-shrouded Hrud. The creature on the dissection table did not have arms that reached its ankles, for example.

Hendarion
04-11-2010, 12:25
i suppose you consider the diagrams of orks, tyranids, eldar and tau official and direct material, but what does that mean? the context is clear in each of those instances that they are caricaturisation of those creators passed on human perceptions
Well, a cartoonish drawing is something else than a complete re-design, right?
I mean an Ork still looks like an Ork, but this 'new' Hrud does not look like a skaven at all. That's a difference. Kroot had been changed too if you consider the drawing of the 3rd (?) edition rule book. Not that much as the Hrud maybe, but GW is no longer interested for 40k to be a "funny warhammer fantasy in space" version, but to be a game with background and models that can be adopted by serious sci-fi-fans.

Lord Malorne
04-11-2010, 12:54
cleansing hrud warrens has been mentioned in the IG book i think and white dwarf material relating to the mordant acid dogs regiments

Indeed, but still no form of conventional army to do battle.

Corvussanctus
04-11-2010, 13:04
And what about the 'great hrud migration', in which Ursakar Creed is mentioned fighting against at an early point of its career?
It's safe to assume that hrud can appear in great numbers and cause a lot of trouble.

MagosHereticus
04-11-2010, 13:15
here the pic of hrud on the dissection table, not that silly head on four giant legs

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/3047/hrud0002.jpg

note that due to it's skeletal structure consisting complete of veribrae like segments, we really can't infer its posture and its face sort of looks like a rat skull but it is too rotten to really tell and it does have a tail abiet a small one

i think plague monks could make a decent basis for hrudish models with some skill, although we have no idea what their "fusils" are suppose to look like

Hendarion
04-11-2010, 13:40
Not that silly head? I think the head looks exactly the same.
That looks like a rat-skull to you? Damn, what rats do you have there, wherever you live? They must be really scary with those huge eyes and teeth, missing the typical rodent teeth.
And from what I can see, the arms and legs show a bone-structure similar to a spine bone, able to bend in all directions.

Polaria
04-11-2010, 14:01
Basing an army on hrud does not really work, they would not engage in battle like a normal 40k army and not in numbers.

The exact same argument could be made for Dark Eldar... and yet...

Askil the Undecided
04-11-2010, 14:02
The "silly head on for legs" is a Hrud, the liqufied slimebeast on the Xenology slab is the same creature having suffered extreme decomposition.

Not space rats, never.

MagosHereticus
04-11-2010, 14:12
Not that silly head? I think the head looks exactly the same.

i meant the whole thing looks silly! it doesnt even have a body, and the head does look similar to what's on the dissection table


That looks like a rat-skull to you? Damn, what rats do you have there, wherever you live? They must be really scary with those huge eyes and teeth, missing the typical rodent teeth.

skaven head is what i meant, but looking at them next to each other makes the similarly almost vanish, the head protrudes less and has substantially bigger eyes, the teeth are very similar not counting the missing incisors


And from what I can see, the arms and legs show a bone-structure similar to a spine bone, able to bend in all directions.

the whole skeleton is described as being exactly that


The "silly head on for legs" is a Hrud, the liqufied slimebeast on the Xenology slab is the same creature having suffered extreme decomposition.

no it is not, the "silly head on four legs" is a speculative artists impression and since the live creatures distort the perception of them it is impossible for one to actually capture their likeness

and the creature on the table has a radically different physiology, it is definitely humanoid with an upper and lower torso, two arms and two legs with a distinct neck and a head


Not space rats, never.

correction "was space rats" (3rd edition pic)

now :confused:

but there is nothing to stop a creative modeller doing his own thing

Lord Damocles
04-11-2010, 14:24
correction "was space rats" (3rd edition pic)
So anything with something vaguely tail-like behind it must be a rat-man?

Hendarion
04-11-2010, 14:26
Yea, as I said they had been space-rats in 3rd Ed book, but GW has went much more serious with 40k since that time and they want to go off the "WHFB cartoons in space" which had been in RT and 2nd Edition, but vanished with better sculpts and more seriously interested 40k-background-fans.

MarshalFaust
04-11-2010, 14:28
I say go with the space skaven. i doubt GW will ever flesh out Hrud background but if they do and end up going with a non skaveny direction you can just call yours the Hracht or something :) i think the skaven models with 40k weapon conversions could look really interesting and would definitely make for a cool army.

Hendarion
04-11-2010, 14:31
I think Ratmans are too much fantasy to add it to a sci-fi background like 40k. Yea, they could make up cool models, but... ratmans... seriously? The next worse thing I could think of would be Space-Slann...

MagosHereticus
04-11-2010, 14:37
So anything with something vaguely tail-like behind it must be a rat-man?

if it is also small, hunched, robed and jawa rip-offs (jawas are rodent-esque and the 3rd edition hrud pic is clearly a nod at jawas)


I think Ratmans are too much fantasy to add it to a sci-fi background like 40k. Yea, they could make up cool models, but... ratmans... seriously? The next worse thing I could think of would be Space-Slann...

i'm sure if hrud were re imagined into an army they would not be skaven facsimiles, and would likely have their morphology changed to no look like anthropomorphic rats (i do like the 3rd hrud pic though)

x-esiv-4c
04-11-2010, 14:55
Skavenesque Hrud would be pretty cool in my opinion. Reimagined space-elves seemed to work well. Apply that kind of effort and lensing to Skaven and Dwarves and you're all set :)

spetswalshe
04-11-2010, 17:27
If I was doing a Hrud army, I would very specifically not show any faces, limbs, etc. All you'd see is Jawa-style rags and hoods, with decaying composite armour-plates or whatever else I wanted to go for. I'd actually be tempted to try and 'blur' them when painting too - definitely so if I had any with their hoods drawn back. Crafty use of GS would be in order. I might actually start with Plague Monk torsos (with no hint of rat or Skaven feet/tails/faces/arms, though; that's an image that I don't think is appropriate for 40k), though basically I would consider the whole thing impossible to truly get right. The whole point is that they can't be seen. Naturally this should not be interpreted to discourage anyone.


and the creature on the table has a radically different physiology, it is definitely humanoid with an upper and lower torso, two arms and two legs with a distinct neck and a head

Well, the artist's impression doesn't contradict that in any way; the head and neck are still there, they're just hunched (which is an issue of posture, not physiology; the corpse on the table could easily walk like that), and the upper and lower torso are present - note the small pelvis on the table-corpse, which could easily disappear when layered with the decaying matter they pile on themselves like in the impression picture - we can assume most of that to have rotted away by the time it went on the table, hence why we only see the base skeletal and musculature structure and not the 'clothing' that appears to be sheathing the arms, legs and torso. The only obvious problem I see is the length of the arms and the fact that it's been given mandibles and some kind of vibrissae. I'd probably suggest that it isn't at all the posture a Hrud would actually adopt while walking, either, but then the artist would probably have no idea about that whatsoever.

Also, I think the face is obviously reminiscent of a piranha, and nothing like a Skaven or rat. It's flat, for one.

MarshalFaust
04-11-2010, 18:13
I think Ratmans are too much fantasy to add it to a sci-fi background like 40k. Yea, they could make up cool models, but... ratmans... seriously? The next worse thing I could think of would be Space-Slann...

yeah you're probably right, space ratmen wouldn't fit in at all with space elves, space ogres, space halflings and space orks. that would be silly.....oh wait.

Hendarion
04-11-2010, 18:25
Well, they have cancelled Space Dwarves and disguised Space Zombies. And just because they ported some things in the past that doesn't mean they'd still do that now. All races though have turned much more serious, compared to older editions, especially Orks.

x-esiv-4c
04-11-2010, 19:05
Orks are serious?

Wow.

*Looks at Somali technical inspired Ork truck*

:wtf:

I think someone might have a touch of Grimdarkitermis.

Balgora
04-11-2010, 19:08
Anybody who studies a hrud long enough to draw it is probably already senile :P

Hendarion
04-11-2010, 19:12
Orks are serious?

Wow.

*Looks at Somali technical inspired Ork truck*

:wtf:

I think someone might have a touch of Grimdarkitermis.
They have surely developed more serious than the cartoon-orks in Rogue Trader. If you wanna deny it, feel free to.

x-esiv-4c
04-11-2010, 19:16
I'm going to try to deny it.
*tries*
*succeeds*
Well that was easy enough.

When did they cancel the space-zombies?

Hendarion
04-11-2010, 19:22
Read it again please.

Xisor
04-11-2010, 19:25
Deary me, Hendarion! What flights of fancy.

The 3rd Ed. one could be argued to be space-skaven, but there's a ton of other possibilities.

Let me support Spetswalshe here: throw a big rag-hood over 'silly head on legs' and give the two upper legs/arms a gun to hold, then hunch it down a bit and what do you have?

Yep, you've got the damn thing from 3rd Ed. They're nicknamed 'bendies' in Xenology because they're extremely flexible. They're also possessed of some sort of odd distortion thing, which further compounds things.

I see no reason whatsoever that you can't do a space-skaven army. But, like my Demiurg attempts, I'd avoid the 'key features' of the Skaven: ratty snouts, paws, jagged daggers. (My Demiurg avoid: beards, ancestors, axes.)

Once those are shot of, you can totally keep the them, look, style and even models of the army, just convert 'em. Space Dwarves, now with 100% less beard/ancestor/axe.

x-esiv-4c
04-11-2010, 19:25
Well, they have cancelled Space Dwarves and disguised Space Zombies.


When did they cancel the Space Zombies?

Hendarion
04-11-2010, 19:29
Xisor, I agree. Getting rid of fantasy-like stereo-types can make these absolutely working for 40k.


x-esiv-4c, maybe I shall change the sentence for you a bit:
"they have (...) disguised Space Zombies"

imtheman
04-11-2010, 19:31
ok heres a completely speculative non fact based idea... what if those wet bendy things were actually the future of what clan moulder had.. like if in the future they have stopped using rat ogres and now have giant alien legs with heads that dissolve when you kill them that would allow both schools of thought to be correct but i am basing this on nothing...

Lupe
04-11-2010, 20:22
Hrud were described as being nothing more than oversized vermin in an old Iron Warriors IA. Now, it could be just Imperial xenophobia, but I really think they actually are vermin. Orks and Kroot are never referred to as vermin. Xenos, scums, filth, animals, beasts, but never vermin.

Couple that with the sketchy 3rd ed drawing, and it's easy for the mind to associate them with rats. Space Skaven sounds so over the top it's awesome. It fits 40K like a glove in my book. Go for it...

Idaan
04-11-2010, 20:43
They build massive hive-like underground cities, build their own weapons and pretty advanced technology that uses warp energy for power. They have racial memory that depicts War in Heaven in great clarity where even Eldar see it as a half-forgotten myth. They share their pantheon of gods with the Eldar, indicating a similar mindset, intelligence and morals. And they had the last Old One guiding them in person until 500.000 years ago.
It's hardly justified to call them vermin.



Let me support Spetswalshe here: throw a big rag-hood over 'silly head on legs' and give the two upper legs/arms a gun to hold, then hunch it down a bit and what do you have?Isn't the Hrud in "Xenology" 2 meters tall as opposed to the 3rd edition image where he only reaches up to the Kroot's waist? Don't have my copy at hand right now.

Khar
04-11-2010, 21:37
I have absolutely no clue where people get this idea that Hrud are space Skaven. Nearly nothing point to this, and some stuff clearly contradicts it.

Let's sum up what w have on them:

First interesting point reaches far back, to Rogue Trader [or somewhere around that era] - Skaven are mentioned there. As far as I know they never got the rules, but they apparently were part of 40k universe at the time. Not Hrud. Skaven.

Next: 3rd edition rulebook. There we have a picture of various aliens, shown earlier in this thread. One of them is Jawa looking critter called Hrud [judginb by length of its leg it's way higher than Jawa, though.]. We have no idea how it looks due to the hooded robe concealing it. It may or may not have a tail and, even though its hood is roughly the same shape as it would be for a human, no face is visible - rat snout would in all likeness stick out. We also know now, that Hrud are nocturnal.

In later material [Iron Warriors IA, IG codex, Inquisitor rulebook] we get to know they live in warrens, use warp-plasma guns, and are called oversized vermin. In-world, of course, so it is clearly justified - creatures living in underground warrens, coupled with humanity's view of aliens - they might as well be called vermin. Still, nothing indicates they look like rats.

Lexicanum article for some reason lists Hrud fusils as paralel to Skaven jezzails. I have no idea why. Jezzail is long ranged musket like warp-blackpowder weapon. Fusil is warp-plasma [inq handbook] pistol sized [warriors of ultramar] weapon. Using this kind of links we could say that Imperial Guard are space Skaven because they have sniper rifles, there's a lot of them and it's never explicitly written they DON'T look like rats. So yeah.

Next came Xenology - first real source of information on Hrud. We got to know some of their culture and relligion and, more importantly, appearance.
I agree, 'artist epiction' of Hrud isn't fully reliable. They, as we now know, have innate distortion fields making them hard to look at. But dissection picture is very close to the other one - skeletal structure is the same, skull is the same[especially eyes and teeth. clearly not rat-like, by the way], shoulder plates are very similar, and overall proportions also look similar. Arm is a little shorter [other is replaced by man made cybernetic one], otherwise creature looks mostly the same. No tail is visible. Shape of head and overall bendiness works well with the robe seen in 3rd edition rulebook, though. Size comparsion with it's bionic hand from one side, and necron warrior from 3rd from the other, also shows they don't really vastly differ in size. Kroot changed more.

Now, let's move to their culture: They share ancestry with Eldar, and, as having even better racial memory, are probably aware of it. They shared their pantheon with Eldar too - Kurnous and Khaine analogues are mentioned. So not really like Skaven with their strongly monotheistic view.

Also, Hrud language - words we know are Slah-Haii, Yaam-Khoh and Qah. Not really skaven-like. They bear more resemblance to Eldar language, actually.

If there is any other data on Hrud I never encountered me, so please correct me in such case, but based on what I know:
Pro Hrud = Skaven
- Live in warrens
- Are once called vermin
- their presence is called infestation [mind you, same with Orks, Tyranids and sometimes even Chaos]
- 3rd ed. picture probably had a tail.
- They're scavengers. [As are Orks.]

Con Hrud = Skaven
- completely different names
- their culture beeing vastly different
- mention of Skaven in Rogue Trader
- no indication of internal conflicts that, more or less, define skaven.
- vastly different [Eldar-like] look of their written language.
- their appearance, for Bob's sake! They look completely different! They have no joints, flexible limbs, differnt head [even 3rd edition picture more or less contradicts them having rat heads], and frikkn distortion fields! Do space Skaven idea fans imagine their Skaven with distortion fields?!

I tried to keep this post as impartial as possible, but I simply couldn't I just fail to see analogy betwen Hrud and Skaven no matter how hard I try. I don't even say Skaven wouldn't fit in 40k - They just as well might, fighting for their place as sneaky scavenger aliens only with Grot Revolution. So yeah, I would like to see space Skaven. It's just thet Hrud are something different.

I would simply name Skaven Skaven, (or even Rat-men and made them mutants), and don't try to call them Hrud - it, for me, makes as much sense as calling them Psy-Gore or Xenarch.

Whoa. This post grew long. Of course, If I offended any Skaven fan here, It was completely unintentional and I apologise in advance.

MagosHereticus
05-11-2010, 04:59
They build massive hive-like underground cities, build their own weapons and pretty advanced technology that uses warp energy for power. They have racial memory that depicts War in Heaven in great clarity where even Eldar see it as a half-forgotten myth. They share their pantheon of gods with the Eldar, indicating a similar mindset, intelligence and morals. And they had the last Old One guiding them in person until 500.000 years ago.
It's hardly justified to call them vermin.

they are called vermin because they scavenge and live a troglodytic existence and are extremely filthy, they are essentially parasitic in that they subsist on debris of other civilisations


Isn't the Hrud in "Xenology" 2 meters tall as opposed to the 3rd edition image where he only reaches up to the Kroot's waist? Don't have my copy at hand right now.

there is no scale given, although the the magos does definitively state that it has the same basic structural layout as all the other traditional species


I have absolutely no clue where people get this idea that Hrud are space Skaven. Nearly nothing point to this, and some stuff clearly contradicts it.

Let's sum up what w have on them:

First interesting point reaches far back, to Rogue Trader [or somewhere around that era] - Skaven are mentioned there. As far as I know they never got the rules, but they apparently were part of 40k universe at the time. Not Hrud. Skaven.

Next: 3rd edition rulebook. There we have a picture of various aliens, shown earlier in this thread. One of them is Jawa looking critter called Hrud [judginb by length of its leg it's way higher than Jawa, though.]. We have no idea how it looks due to the hooded robe concealing it. It may or may not have a tail and, even though its hood is roughly the same shape as it would be for a human, no face is visible - rat snout would in all likeness stick out. We also know now, that Hrud are nocturnal.

In later material [Iron Warriors IA, IG codex, Inquisitor rulebook] we get to know they live in warrens, use warp-plasma guns, and are called oversized vermin. In-world, of course, so it is clearly justified - creatures living in underground warrens, coupled with humanity's view of aliens - they might as well be called vermin. Still, nothing indicates they look like rats.

Lexicanum article for some reason lists Hrud fusils as paralel to Skaven jezzails. I have no idea why. Jezzail is long ranged musket like warp-blackpowder weapon. Fusil is warp-plasma [inq handbook] pistol sized [warriors of ultramar] weapon. Using this kind of links we could say that Imperial Guard are space Skaven because they have sniper rifles, there's a lot of them and it's never explicitly written they DON'T look like rats. So yeah.

Next came Xenology - first real source of information on Hrud. We got to know some of their culture and relligion and, more importantly, appearance.
I agree, 'artist epiction' of Hrud isn't fully reliable. They, as we now know, have innate distortion fields making them hard to look at. But dissection picture is very close to the other one - skeletal structure is the same, skull is the same[especially eyes and teeth. clearly not rat-like, by the way], shoulder plates are very similar, and overall proportions also look similar. Arm is a little shorter [other is replaced by man made cybernetic one], otherwise creature looks mostly the same. No tail is visible. Shape of head and overall bendiness works well with the robe seen in 3rd edition rulebook, though. Size comparsion with it's bionic hand from one side, and necron warrior from 3rd from the other, also shows they don't really vastly differ in size. Kroot changed more.

Now, let's move to their culture: They share ancestry with Eldar, and, as having even better racial memory, are probably aware of it. They shared their pantheon with Eldar too - Kurnous and Khaine analogues are mentioned. So not really like Skaven with their strongly monotheistic view.

Also, Hrud language - words we know are Slah-Haii, Yaam-Khoh and Qah. Not really skaven-like. They bear more resemblance to Eldar language, actually.

If there is any other data on Hrud I never encountered me, so please correct me in such case, but based on what I know:
Pro Hrud = Skaven
- Live in warrens
- Are once called vermin
- their presence is called infestation [mind you, same with Orks, Tyranids and sometimes even Chaos]
- 3rd ed. picture probably had a tail.
- They're scavengers. [As are Orks.]

Con Hrud = Skaven
- completely different names
- their culture beeing vastly different
- mention of Skaven in Rogue Trader
- no indication of internal conflicts that, more or less, define skaven.
- vastly different [Eldar-like] look of their written language.
- their appearance, for Bob's sake! They look completely different! They have no joints, flexible limbs, differnt head [even 3rd edition picture more or less contradicts them having rat heads], and frikkn distortion fields! Do space Skaven idea fans imagine their Skaven with distortion fields?!

I tried to keep this post as impartial as possible, but I simply couldn't I just fail to see analogy betwen Hrud and Skaven no matter how hard I try. I don't even say Skaven wouldn't fit in 40k - They just as well might, fighting for their place as sneaky scavenger aliens only with Grot Revolution. So yeah, I would like to see space Skaven. It's just thet Hrud are something different.

I would simply name Skaven Skaven, (or even Rat-men and made them mutants), and don't try to call them Hrud - it, for me, makes as much sense as calling them Psy-Gore or Xenarch.

Whoa. This post grew long. Of course, If I offended any Skaven fan here, It was completely unintentional and I apologise in advance.

it is more to do with the evolution of analogous concepts, not specific discrete details, the way your presenting evidence could quite reasonably be used to state that space marines have no connection with the knights and chaos warriors from which the inspiration of their design was created or that necrons dont have parallels with the undead or even that tyranids dont draw design elements the alien movie franchise

to be clear i am talking about archetypes

as with demiurg, the hrud are slowly but surely moving away from their origin as fantasy facsimiles, unlike eldar and orks though they are still apparently havent found the right feel for them yet or simply dont feel like expanding on them any father at this time

cornonthecob
05-11-2010, 07:46
The Hrud are a difficult race to actually make model wise, I've seen two main armies and both differentiate from the original idea. One going for a more Jawa like look , another for the 'Space skaven'.

The actual fluff and look for them though is also difficult , I like trying to gain a cohesive whole for them.

Here's an example

The basic troops are the Jawa like robed scavengers , they use their distortion field to ensure that it's difficult to shoot them , any rounds missing because of refraction. They would be armed with Warp-fusils as a basic armament. The 'tail' is an aesthetic choice, some hrud may have them some may not.

The stronger close combat troops remove their cloaks (they would be unwieldy in close combat) relying on their natural speed and distortion field to stop any attacks. They would utilise the cybernetic upgrades (lightning claws ?) shown in the xenology drawing coupled with their natural flexibility and long limbs for a acrobatic fighting style that uses their arms like flails , constantly slamming their limbs into enemies.

The 'elite' troops would be a mixture of close combat and basic warrior, armed with fusils and scavenged armour (as well as the cybernetic upgrades) , but able to not only utilise their distortion field , but also their entropic field ( I could see a fire prism style mechanic of several different units merging their fields to create a powerful 'aging' effect)

eyescrossed
05-11-2010, 07:55
MagosHereticus, please use multiquote.
This.



Also, don't you guys see? We're playing right into their hands; we still have no clue exactly what they are! :p

TimLeeson
05-11-2010, 08:05
I'm sculpting a few depictions of how I see the Hrud soon. They are going to be a mix between the robed and xenology look, but much more abstract and weirder as I find both the xenology and space-skaven looks to be too conventional, not scary enough IMO. They will of course have their Umbra allies. And Ambulls....just cos

Lord Damocles
05-11-2010, 09:10
Hrud were described as being nothing more than oversized vermin in an old Iron Warriors IA.
Direct quote and citation, please.

I'm looking at 'Index Asartes: Bitter and Twisted ' in White Dwarf 256, pgs.14-20, and nowhere are the Hrud 'described as being nothing more than oversized vermin'.

The only two mentions of Hrud are on pgs.16 and 17, as follows:

[I]'In the midst of cleansing the Hrud Warrens on Gugann matters were brought to a head.'

'One moment they were humanity's heroes assaulting the Hrud and the next they were committing genocide.'

Toddy
05-11-2010, 09:30
Like everything in this hobby, I side with the modeller. If you convert some great space skaven and call them Hrud, it really doesn't matter how much nerdrage comes your way.

Apologist
05-11-2010, 10:01
Direct quote and citation, please.


I'm looking at 'Index Asartes: Bitter and Twisted [Iron Warriors]' in White Dwarf 256, pgs.14-20, and nowhere are the Hrud 'described as being nothing more than oversized vermin'.

Absolutely right. In any case, 'vermin' doesn't equate to 'rats' – merely any type of small animal that prove a nuisance or are injurious to health. That could as easily mean space cockroaches as space rats. The only real 'evidence' that they're skaven-y is the vague picture in the 3rd ed. rulebook, and the much-discussed tail could just as easily be a tentacle, or pipe or even some sort of dragged detritus.

The few mentions of hrud in the background tend to revolve around warrens and sneaking, so I can see where people get the skaven/rat vibe, but personally, I'd prefer to see Hrud be more alien in appearance than just humanoid rats (or skaven in spaaaace). That said, I rather like the imagery that 'vermin' conjures, and I've seen a couple of nice space-rat armies. :)

+++Edit+++

Like everything in this hobby, I side with the modeller. If you convert some great space skaven and call them Hrud, it really doesn't matter how much nerdrage comes your way.
Toddy puts it best with this quote! :)
'Defeat your enemies with success' – or in this case, 'Defeat internet-rage with awesome models'.

toco
13-01-2015, 11:32
Hrud were never 'space Skaven'.

...

They are now. White Dwarf puts them in a timeline about Skaven. First the events are Skaven related during the WHF years, and the final entry is about the Hrud!

MarshalFaust
13-01-2015, 21:35
wait, seriously? can you elaborate on what it says about them?

toco
14-01-2015, 09:25
The Hrud Rising occurred in 980.M35, when the Imperium began a wide scale effort to purge the galaxy of a sizable Hrud infestation. The battle drew in both Space Marines and Astra Militarum alike and famously saw the Dark Angels depart, with no explanation given, before it was completed; which earned the Chapter, the ire of the Ultramarines…

Source
White Dwarf Weekly #49, pg. 46

Born Again
14-01-2015, 10:28
This isn't a new event by any means, it's been mentioned a number of times before. Despite their placement in a "Skaven Timeline", they are almost certainly not rat-men in space, in the same way Eldar are Elves in space, they simply fill many of the same archetypes and themes. Their relation to Skaven is that they are essentially extremely dangerous vermin that live in the shadow of other cultures, rather than humanoid rats with steampunk/ magic technology.
While some will dispute its standing as canon, the best description of Hrud we have comes from Xenology, which portrays them as rather unlike Skaven in some ways.

Endobai
14-01-2015, 10:40
Yes, plus there are newer descriptions - sources:

Imperial Armour 10 - chapter about Star Phantoms,

various Horus Heresy books, mainly about Iron Warriors ('Iron Within'),

and recently in 'Gods of Mars' where they are described as one of very few extra-galactic species able to migrate through the universe, not just our galaxy.


On the battlefield they would have to get various poisonous and warp-based weapons, entropic abilities (like DE power from pain but weakening the enemy), deep strike capabilities and various forms of stealth/shrouded/forced snap shots qualities.

Space Skaven in the widest sense, but very different. Let's not forget the links to the Old Ones - likely to be the last actual aliens with contacts with the Old Ones, or actually the last Old One.

Lord Damocles
14-01-2015, 14:26
I'm not seeing how the quoted passage from White Dwarf 49 either relates the Hrud to the Skaven, or indicates that the Hrud are rat-men (which already exist elsewhere ion 40K anyway)..?

Hendarion
15-01-2015, 05:08
Doesn't 3rd edition rulebook shows a hooded little dude with rat tail as Hrud? I always found the Xenology-description kind of quite far away from that picture, even though more interesting.

Hellebore
15-01-2015, 09:07
With the events of WFB I wouldn't be surprised if they do turn out to be skaven. Crossover appeal like the daemons.

Rufiodies
16-01-2015, 18:23
The Hrud are known as leech men or something like that maggot men, as in they look like a humanoid made up entirely of maggots and leeches, They have to have some form of connection to the warp, due to their aoe effect aging everything around them, So daemon rats? seems good to me, personally I'd like to see some of the "lesser" races appear in 40k, demiurg, hrud mainly.
where in 40k do skaven appear?
and when do we get a xenos mercenary army? Loxatl and whatever else, maybe as allies for chaos and dark eldar

TimLeeson
16-01-2015, 19:10
I don't mind the concept of space skaven and with the new kits - especially those armoured rat ogres, it would be quite cool to see people convert them into 40k armies.

That said, I always disliked the idea of Hrud as Space Skaven. Hrud have too much potential - and should look as alien as their concepts and ideas. I never liked the Xenology look either though, arms and legs....meh. They should look like rotting insect corpses melded together that wrap themselves in robes - or something equally twisted and weird.

Rufiodies
16-01-2015, 22:07
Does anyone else think that the new rat orge models would make GREAT mechanicum combat servitors?

The Black Shield
17-01-2015, 00:02
You might want to read Gods of Mars. It has some interesting descriptions of the Hrud.

Lord Damocles
19-01-2015, 14:00
Doesn't 3rd edition rulebook shows a hooded little dude with rat tail as Hrud? I always found the Xenology-description kind of quite far away from that picture, even though more interesting.
The little knee-high dude with a hood and what may or may not be a tail is quite a long way from being a ratman.


where in 40k do skaven appear?
Necromunda featured rat men who were mutants. I don't know where the rules were originally published (they were fan written - so presumably one of the specialist games magazines), but they can be found online.

Tastyfish
20-01-2015, 11:42
This something other than the Ratskins? Who were nomads who lived the underhive and wore the pelts of giant rats?

Colonel Mayhem
20-01-2015, 12:12
He said Rat Men, the sneaky bastard:D I was about to point out the same about Ratskins until I reread what he wrote.

If he wasn't being all sneakylike you are right, they are normal humans from before the hives were built on Necromunda. And they wear the pelts of the giant rats roaming the underhive.

Lord Damocles
20-01-2015, 12:28
Ratmen and Ratskins were different.

Ratskins were cool American indian-esque guys; while Ratmen were like Splinter (although being humans mutated to look like rats, rather than rats mutated to look like humans).
Thematically they were very similar, but Ratmen were like turning the 'rat' part of Ratskins up to eleven, and then using Skaven models.

Tastyfish
20-01-2015, 12:37
I've had a quick look and apparently it was a fan made add-on, rather than appearing in any of fanatic or specialist games magazines/websites.