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The Grim
04-11-2010, 09:33
I have had a few games recently and before I played those I have studied the rules pretty intensely as well as quite a few army books so I would deem myself pretty knowledgeable on most issues. The thing is I have been facing opponents with an average knowledge of the rules and I usually point out when mistakes, were it my favor or not, usually helping him correct his playing. However, sometimes I know that my opponent has forgotten a rule or is not oding it properly and I just keep it to myself, usually for my own advantage. The typical example would be a player forgetting the hatred reroll provided by his warrior priest, and sometimes I would genuinely not remember it either but sometimes I actually know he could be using it and I just do not point it out. Note that I never do rule-lawyering in any way nor than I push fraudulent rules, I just forget to point out advantages that by any right my opponent should be aware of. If my opponent remembers a little after I usually let him retake his moves unless it was too far back and thus would change the face of the game.

I'd like to hear your point on this.

Cheers,

The Grim

Just to know

eyescrossed
04-11-2010, 09:35
Not cheating at all. It's up to your opponent to remember their own rules.

They're big boys/girls now. They don't need 24/7 instructions.

Orcboy_Phil
04-11-2010, 09:37
You forgot an option, its not cheating but its rather c***ish.

Mewy
04-11-2010, 09:38
It's kinda 50/50 in my opinion. It should be up to him to remember what he has and for you to remember what you have and explain it to your opponents when it comes up if they call you up on it or vice versa, but if you are willingly letting something slide for advantage it's kinda sporting to tell him what he's forgetting.

Also if he remembers later he'll kick himself for forgetting and that will help him remember for future games... worked for me.

BaSe
04-11-2010, 09:38
I think your safe. You are not there to ensure people use their rules. You just deal with your own.
The only time I'd say different is in a friendly game with a new player.

Chiungalla
04-11-2010, 09:42
I will not call it cheating, but it's not nice either.

My approach to this is to remind my opponent of any and all rules that are relevant at the time they become so.

But I will not give him advice on rules that will come up in the future. Unless he asks off cause.

So I will tell him about the hatred of the warrior priest.
But I would not tell him that if he charges special rule xyz will most likely let me win.

dragonet111
04-11-2010, 09:51
You have to remember your army's rules it's not the job of your opponent but I tend to remind him if he forgot something like hatred or a reroll because if I win the game I want a victory due to my own merit and not due to a little detail my friend forgot.

Frosty_TK
04-11-2010, 09:54
Well, I usually point out anything I know, because me and my opponent play the game together. If it bother's you enough to even start a thread about it, you definetly should tell him everytime.
You've got enough worries in the world, that such petty gains in the game shouldn't add to your troubles.

stiggie
04-11-2010, 10:03
its not cheating at all.. but on the otherhand its not too sportsmanlike :D

KronusDaSneaky
04-11-2010, 10:16
Its not cheating but it may be inappropriate depending on the setting. If its a casual game with a less experienced player I am all for helping them along and letting people roll dice for things they should have out of phase. The sole exception is when you playing with a considerably weaker list and things, at least on paper, look pretty bleak. If its a more competitive setting its perfectly fine however. That said I don't tend to advice people on specific tactics during the game, only providing feedback in the aftermath since I consider this a more personal thing.

That said don't ever lose sight of the most important rule, having fun. The rule is clearly stated as most important rule in the RB and I would discourage inappropriate behaviour accordingly

Wil Grand
04-11-2010, 10:24
It's only a game - but as such if you're not sticking by the rules then you're cheating, and wilfully not following the rules is pointless - why bother if it's not on the level. You're deliberately keeping quiet, debasing the game specifically to win.

The fun of playing is all that matters, not winning. Winning like that would make me feel tainted since you haven't really won at all.

Artinam
04-11-2010, 10:34
It's not cheating but I wouldn't call it very sportmanshiplike.

kurisawa
04-11-2010, 10:42
It is certainly not cheating, but you have your own conscience to live with. If you win because your opponent didn't know something and you didn't tell him, did you really win?

Modify your behaviour according to your own answer to that question.

K.

CaptainFaramir
04-11-2010, 10:44
Q: Is it cheating.
A: No.

End of.

Wishing
04-11-2010, 10:53
If your opponent is literally playing the rules wrong unintentionally, by misunderstanding a rule or forgetting something non-optional about their models, and you know but don't correct it, then I would say that in terms of cheating, it can be compared to watching someone have an accident and get killed, and not helping them even though you know you could have prevented the accident. That's not the same as killing that person - but you can still go to jail for it.

Note that if they're forgetting some ability that can be used, but is optional whether to use it or not, that's entirely different. You don't need to remind your opponent "you probably meant to use ability X there", it's their own responsibility to sort those things out as long as it doesn't actually break the game rules, which forgetting non-optional rules does.

Mystic_Weasel
04-11-2010, 11:02
Gotta say it is not cheating at all.
Though most people know the armies they own and often face, at the end of the day it is down to the owning player to know. . .
1. the rule book and
2. their own armies book and rules.
To not mention it (especially if your opponent is a nice guy/girl) is rather unsporting though, in "real life" Druchii do not forget their eternal hatred etc. So if you know they should have it then it is reasonable to let them know if they forget. Alternatively say nothing and let them know after the battle how things could have gone better for them and challenge them to a rematch.
Often players who are reminded often rely to much on their opponents to guide them through the game and you can end up reminding them all the time, sometimes a heavy defeat and pointing out all they forgot can give them the "kick up the bum" to make sure they get their rules right.
Think blood bowl, you can remind your opponent to move the turn counter every damn turn in some games, you call a few illegal proceedures and they soon start remembering. Harsh but it least it is a learning process.

PeG
04-11-2010, 11:06
It is not cheating and how I would do it depends on the opponent. If it is obvious that it is someone who is still learning the game I try to remember them about most things and I will allow them to go back and declare charges after they moved another unit etc but against more experienced players it is up to them to remember the rules.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
04-11-2010, 11:47
Its jumping over the lowest fence.

Sure you can write it off, as your opponent cheating himself out of an advantage, but in reality its just you cheating yourself out of decent challenge.

So yes, blatant cheating. Grow up :)

GuyLeCheval
04-11-2010, 11:50
It's not cheating, but I would advice you just saying it to your opponent. That makes you not feel uncertain and post things like this and your opponent will like you more.

theunwantedbeing
04-11-2010, 12:02
Purposefully not telling them could be considered cheating.
It's not exactly a lot different from doing something because they don't know you can't afterall.

Sure there isn't an obligation to tell them what they've forgotten before it's much too late to go back and do it, although generally you'll be treated more nicely and your opponent will have a more enjoyable game if you do remind them of things they forget.

Chaos and Evil
04-11-2010, 12:14
It's not cheating, but it's completely childish.

Leogun_91
04-11-2010, 12:15
It's kind of cheating if you know and chose not to tell. It's not cheating if you forget too or if you thought it was otherwise but trust him to know the rules better than you.

Elyssia
04-11-2010, 12:16
It's blatant cheating.


It is the responsibility of both players to make sure the game is played by the rules.

In the given example: Hatred does not specify 'may'. The missed dice MUST be rerolled. If you know your opponent is forgetting this and you are not, you are bending the rules of the game to your own advantage, by not making the opponent aware of this fact.

If the rules are not followed by the player(s) conscious of the, without all players agreeing on treating this as an agreed exception, that player is/those players are cheating. Plain and simple.

Jorster
04-11-2010, 12:16
If its a serious game, you have the right to stay silent, but if its a friendly then you should remind him/her. But ultimately it depends on your opponent, like if its an experienced player who for all purposes should know all his/her rules then why should you help him, but if they are new then help them of course. Personally however i really think its best if you always remind them if they need help or dont know what they are doing experienced or not! why you might ask; i guarantee the feeling of beating them at their best is much better then beating them cos they're forgetful and there's the added bonus that if you do lose you can always say that you helped them :D

Harwammer
04-11-2010, 12:18
Imho if you are preventing the game from being played by its rules by purposefully witholding information then that counts cheating.

There is a note in the rulebook saying you should help out your opponent with rules, but not expect any help from him so its unsporting too.

MarcoSkoll
04-11-2010, 12:31
Yes, it's cheating, because it means the game is not being played by its rules, and also breaks the oft forgotten rule of sportsmanship.
If someone breaks that rule, the game is immediately less fun, as you're turning it into a competition, rather than a game.

Here's the question. If your opponent noticed you'd missed something that was to your advantage, would you want to be told?

I assume you would, so not telling your opponent when they've made a mistake is childish, low, dishonourable, nasty, unpleasant, unfriendly, unsportsmanlike, petty, shallow, *insert more adjectives here*.
It's a game, gorram it! If it means so much to you that you purposely cheat your opponent, then you've missed the point completely.

Snake1311
04-11-2010, 12:41
Meh, lame.

If you need this to win, it just means you'll start losing a lot when your opponenets stop making rookie errors - so you're basically crippling your own learning curve.

If you do not need this to win, then it's a little pointless, no?

At least make sure you tell your opponents what they've forgotten after the game ends.

No this is NOT cheating in any way, shape or form. However, its neither 'normal', nor has your opponent especially 'deserved' it, unless you're playing a tourney for pride and/or money. You need to be a little more neutral in the voting options :P

The Grim
04-11-2010, 12:42
Hm, first of all thanks a lot for the output, as you have guessed the reason why I'm asking is of course somehow I feel bad about it but sometimes I just could not be bothered: 90% of the time I point out things and rules he should have applied, I even remind him for example that he forgot to shoot with that unit, or for example that with that template he can target my character and such. But there are just times, either I couldn't be bothered to point out for the tenth time that his wand of something may storage power dice and he should use it during my magic phase etc, after first 3 times of reminding it, it somewhat gets old. The other moment I can be susceptible to do it is when I am feeling blatantly out of luck when say 3 of my warmachines have exploded in said turn. However I would never do that to a beginner, I myself started playing a month ago so ...

The Grim
04-11-2010, 12:43
Meh, lame.

If you need this to win, it just means you'll start losing a lot when your opponenets stop making rookie errors - so you're basically crippling your own learning curve.

If you do not need this to win, then it's a little pointless, no?

At least make sure you tell your opponents what they've forgotten after the game ends.

I certainly don't need this to win either, it is just I'm bored of playing for him.

Eternus
04-11-2010, 12:48
You have to remember your army's rules it's not the job of your opponent but I tend to remind him if he forgot something like hatred or a reroll because if I win the game I want a victory due to my own merit and not due to a little detail my friend forgot.


The fun of playing is all that matters, not winning. Winning like that would make me feel tainted since you haven't really won at all.


It is certainly not cheating, but you have your own conscience to live with. If you win because your opponent didn't know something and you didn't tell him, did you really win?

Modify your behaviour according to your own answer to that question.

K.


Yes, it's cheating, because it means the game is not being played by its rules, and also breaks the oft forgotten rule of sportsmanship.
If someone breaks that rule, the game is immediately less fun, as you're turning it into a competition, rather than a game.

Here's the question. If your opponent noticed you'd missed something that was to your advantage, would you want to be told?

I assume you would, so not telling your opponent when they've made a mistake is childish, low, dishonourable, nasty, unpleasant, unfriendly, unsportsmanlike, petty, shallow, *insert more adjectives here*.
It's a game, gorram it! If it means so much to you that you purposely cheat your opponent, then you've missed the point completely.

I pretty much agree with these people. I wouldn't call it cheating per se, as you are not breaking the 'rules', but it isn't sportsmanlike. What value can you place on a victory where the opponent hasn't played their best game? Answer - none. Victory by technicality is no victory in my opinion. I'd rather lose well than win badly.

I would always tell my opponent if there was something glaring they'd missed, and I hope they'd do the same for me, because we have a bond of trust when playing, that the other person will play by the rules and that each will do their best to win in the same spirit. Although having said that, it does get damned annoying when you have to keep reminding your opponent to do things.

Harwammer
04-11-2010, 13:03
I certainly don't need this to win either, it is just I'm bored of playing for him.

I'd recommend you stop pointing out things he is skipping out which aren't mandatory (e.g. forgetting to move/shoot/cast). Hopefully this will encourage him to generally remember more options, but you won't be cheating as you won't be allowing him to skip mandatory things (hatred rerolls).

Avian
04-11-2010, 13:04
Games get a lot less interesting once people end up focusing only on what they MUST do instead of what they CAN do to ensure everything is played by the rules.


However, there are a lot of things you can help yourself and your opponent with. I have for example made little summary cards covering all units and special rules in my WoC army which my opponent can borrow. I have also made a lot of tokens to help with remembering special rules and things, and I thought I'd make a little summary sheet for combats because I keep forgetting Fear tests and Stomping.

MarcoSkoll
04-11-2010, 13:06
But there are just times, either I couldn't be bothered to point out for the tenth time that his wand of something may storage power dice and he should use it during my magic phase etc, after first 3 times of reminding it, it somewhat gets old.
If you've reminded them several times, then it's a slightly different matter. But in that case, I'd mix words to the effect of "I can't keep reminding you of this" into their last warning.


The other moment I can be susceptible to do it is when I am feeling blatantly out of luck when say 3 of my warmachines have exploded in said turn.
That happens. But you can come back from things like that, and it's possibly one of the most awesome things in the game.
But such a comeback it won't mean much if you bent rules to help it happen.

You get good luck and bad luck. Sometimes your models won't pull their points cost (for example, the Autarch in my Eldar army has the worst luck of just about any model I have ever owned), sometimes they'll buy it back 10 times over (my Striking Scorpion Exarch, who in about half of games kicks enough **** to make up for the Autarch three times over).

That's the way of things. You can't just bend things when things go badly for you - I doubt you'd ever "pay it back" by forgetting things to your advantage when things start to go well again.

Kevlar
04-11-2010, 13:25
To me its only cheating when you forget to roll animosity or stupidity and such. I have a feeling some people intentionally forget those rolls.

Silentbob10
04-11-2010, 13:30
In my opinion you should always do what you can to make the game a fun and FAIR expirience. This includes reminding an opponant of rules they may not know or may have forgotten otherwise its not "cheating" as such but I personally would see it as general nastyness and would swiftly stop playing against you if i found out.

The Grim
04-11-2010, 13:34
To me its only cheating when you forget to roll animosity or stupidity and such. I have a feeling some people intentionally forget those rolls.

I never forget anything (at least purposefully) when it comes to my army.

oldschoolmonk
04-11-2010, 13:39
When someone has no understanding of the rules, and is relying on your knowledge, then I would say you have an obligation to point it out. I don't think they need to say they want your help, but if you know they have not played many games then I would help them out as much as possible. If it were one of the members of my gaming group I will point out rules that MUST happen, like the Errant charge or challenges from chaos. I will not always point out their own benefits if they do not say it, especially something like a warrior priest in a greatsword unit (why else is he even in the unit if you don't use it?).

In a tournament they can look after their own rules, and no we aren't going back a phase or rerolling a combat because you forgot they had hatred.

Urgat
04-11-2010, 13:48
As a member of the side who usually forget rules (always the beneficial ones too, like magic items, or +1 dice for a unit in melee -never the other way around, go wonder), I'll say to you: it's not nice :p

Steam_Giant
04-11-2010, 13:51
For competition:

Your only as good as your opponant, If you want to get better you should not only make sure he is getting all his options, but give him tactical advice/ options that could mean he wipes you off the table...

For fun:

Start whacking him with the rulebook when he forgets something.. But dont tell him what it is ?! :D

Vishok
04-11-2010, 13:53
This is absolutely NOT cheating. It's up to your opponent to remember things. If you remember them and do not tell them, there's nothing wrong with that. It was Sun Tzu himself that said "All warfare is based on deception". While not out and out deception, the principle is the same - your opponent is responsible for bringing his A game. If he's smoked too many left handed cigarettes to remember his Hatred (a fairly unforgettable thing if you ask me) then it's his own fault.

Playing the game IS important. Your opponent would do well to remember that.

I'm trying to play the game against an opponent, not myself. If you win this way, that's a SQUARE WIN. To the Warp with fools who will cry about this or say you didn't win fairly or that your conscience will suffer - my conscience would only suffer if I didn't play to win, every single time. I'll give my opponent tactical advice when I'm A) teaching the game or B) playing by myself.

Odin
04-11-2010, 13:56
You forgot an option, its not cheating but its rather c***ish.

Yup, that's the option I'd vote for.

I pretty much always remind my opponent if they've forgotten something, it's just good sportsmanship. I want to win because I was the best general, not because my opponent has a memory like a sieve.


Its not cheating but it may be inappropriate depending on the setting.

Well, I guess in a tournament it might be a different matter. But that's why I don't have much interest in tournaments.

Solun Decius
04-11-2010, 13:58
It's up to your opponent to remember their own rules.

You have to remember your army's rules it's not the job of your opponent ...

It's up to your opponent to remember things. If you remember them and do not tell them, there's nothing wrong with that.

To me its only cheating when you forget to roll animosity or stupidity and such. I have a feeling some people intentionally forget those rolls.
These comments (and more in this nature) raise one issue. I'm not explicitly for or against any of these, just setting up a point.

If you expect the game to be played so that you only have to remember what's in your advantage and your opponent has to remember what's in his advantage it's not enough to remember only "your own" rules, as some rules in an army book have negative effects for that army.
If take my O&G to the table and play someone who doesn't know my book, I still can't just say "you remember your rules and I'll remember mine and everything will be fine." as I can then intentionally never take an animosity check and it won't be cheating.
I have to explain every rule that has to do with my army beforehand and it's really not even enough to then just expect him to remember them. If he's playing against your army for the first time you should also remind him of special rules that can affect how he wants to move (this character has this or that, maybe you don't want to get too close) and keep track of your own negative effects, stating them out loud so he learns (or making cards like Avian, brilliant!). Then start just saying: "aren't you forgetting something" or even: "isn't there something I should be doing here" if you feel he's not getting it after countless repetitions.

In tournaments maybe it's OK not to remind him of something you know is in his book, but it is cheating to skip something in your own book expecting him to be responsible for reminding you.

I still think the OP is doing this very well, and is simply frustrated with his opponents not picking up on it quick enough.

The_Bear_in_the_Hat
04-11-2010, 14:01
Given that if you role any dice for a phase (even if you forgot the previous phase or to do something within it) you can miss entire turns of shooting or magic and your opponent doesn't have to tell you, it's certainly not cheating. However, if you know a player is new or just not very good then it's always best to let them off or tell them.

The fun of the game isn't in steam-rolling a poor player, it's in well played and hard fought battles where you were challenged. The more people who learn from their errors and get better the more fun it will be for everyone.

The Grim
04-11-2010, 14:08
If you expect the game to be played so that you only have to remember what's in your advantage and your opponent has to remember what's in his advantage it's not enough to remember only "your own" rules, as some rules in an army book have negative effects for that army.

Now now, I include all rules against me as well as in my favor and always abide by the BRB, I always point my units out, describe what they do beforehand, make no secret of anything, even giving warnings such as "You sure you wanna go against those Str6 WS5 T4 Stubborn guys with your elite?". The only thing I *rarely* and insist on rarely do not point out are rules that are in his army book, and that only if I have pointed it out previously and I usually point it out most of the time. The thing is some time people felt insulted that I would point things from their army book, so I guess that enters into play as well.

But I do agree with Kevlar, since I am no God myself, even though I wish I were, I cannot try to correct luck by that means. I guess that with a dose of good will (and patience maybe I will be able to master my shrouding desire and point it out every time).

BramGaunt
04-11-2010, 14:09
In my opinion it really depends on where and whom you play. There's no genuine answer to that question.
For example, if you hang around your local store and have a game against Carl (thats just a random name I use), a Kid who bought IoB, a box of Spearelves and a Boltthrower, I think it would be fairest to help him as good as you can. He's new to the game and you don't wanna scare him off, do you?

If you have instead a game against James McOrcplayer-I-am-so-hardcore-noone-wants-to-play-me-anymore-duh and he forgets halft the rules, I'd say it would be your duty not to correct him, but to kick his ass so hard that his miniatures backsides turn red. (disclaimer: This kind of player exists with most armies, though half of them I know happen to play orcs. I don't hold a grudge against Orcplayers, this is just an example.) If you are willing, tell him to reread his armybook. And the rules. And consider another hobby.

Than it could be in a tournament. It's up to you to decide if it's more important for you to win, or to win on equal terms. I may be naive here, but I believe the best victory you won is the one with a fair chance. Everyone can forget something under tress, and youll'd be as happy as your opponent will be if corrected.

And then there's a game with friends. Imho, you always should correct them. They are your friends, and they should do the same for you.

If not, kick them in the crotch.

Vishok
04-11-2010, 14:19
These comments (and more in this nature) raise one issue. I'm not explicitly for or against any of these, just setting up a point.

***

In tournaments maybe it's OK not to remind him of something you know is in his book, but it is cheating to skip something in your own book expecting him to be responsible for reminding you.



Perhaps I should state my point more clearly. No one said anything about letting your own rules slip, especially in the case of animosity where enacting the rule properly could be detrimental to your game.

Letting your opponent get flustered (or drunk), forget movements, his own special rules, etc...:wtf: You are pretty much obligated to continue as normal, and in so doing destroy him.

I think it's quite un-manly if I have to read all the books and basically play the game for someone. I mean, I read all the books anyway but I get tired of repeating myself. Not that I'm churlish by any means - I've brought more players into this hobby than I can even begin to surmise. I've taught more than one of GW's games to a horde of folk. It's the guys who think they are playing a video game that get me - the ones who just sit back and let you tell them when crap is happening.

To the Nine Hells with that kind of thinking!! I'm not talking about kids or newbs, but players with a decade (+) of gaming under their belt. Remind them after the fact if you feel bad, but I encourage you not to feel bad about it. You can ruin the game by having a bleeding heart, and it is explicitly their fault.

Luigi
04-11-2010, 14:39
ask to yourself: "would I like to be remembered of something (even small) the moment I forget it while playing?"

The Grim
04-11-2010, 14:43
ask to yourself: "would I like to be remembered of something (even small) the moment I forget it while playing?"

This is not linked but it has never happenned, usually when I forget something and remember it later, say I forgot to roll for my miners and we enter my shooting phase I consider that it is my fault and don't ask to have them in. For all I know, my opponent was aware they were part of my roster and maybe he did not mention them.

ztlambe
04-11-2010, 14:44
I think the real issue would be if you were "forgetting" major game play rules, that drastically changing the fundamental parts of the movement, shooting, etc phases of the game.

It is the other players responsibility to remember things like "warrior priest hatred" and individual codex rules. Its handy to know these rules yourself so you can protect yourself from abuse and stay knowledgeable, but a player should take the time to learn his own rules.

Bac5665
04-11-2010, 14:54
It's not cheating, but it's terrible sportsmanship.

Remember, if you win because your opponent forgot his hatred, then telling someone else you won the game is basically lying.

Playing with the rules wrong makes winning and losing meaningless; that's why I only think house rules are acceptable if no one in the game cares about winning or losing.

Noserenda
04-11-2010, 14:55
Its bad Sportsmanship yes, though not really cheating. I guess you have to decide what knd of player you want to be yourself.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
04-11-2010, 15:06
You can ruin the game by having a bleeding heart, and it is explicitly their fault.

Luckily I'm not playing the same game as you ;)

The game I play is called Warhammer. Its a wonderful game, where you have two armies clash in a fantasy world, with fireballs, magic swords and heroic moments. It has a few clunky rules, and between those and having to keep track of a bunch of models and their rules, its easy to forget a few steps underway, but when people remind each other of these little technicalities, you can go beyond this and concentrate on the what the game is all about; pretending you're tactical mastermind, crush your enemies (with tactics), see them driven before you (beaten by your awesomeness) and hear the lamentation of their women (for your opponents puny tactical skills).

And then I refer to my sig ;)

SamVimes
04-11-2010, 15:12
It isn't technically cheating, but it is very un-sportsman like and means you are playing some tweaked version of the game. It's like playing chess against someone who doesn't know about castling or en passant capturing. It's not cheating, but it isn't exactly a standard (and fair) game of chess. If you know he's doing something wrong, you should remind him. Letting him forget for a temporary advantage isn't something you should be proud of and makes whatever victory you achieve hollow.

Lord Malorne
04-11-2010, 15:14
If your enemy forgets a rule it is their fault, I may remind them but I do not have to, its upto me, never be so foolish as to think it is cheating or that it is bad sportsmanship, it isn't.

SamVimes
04-11-2010, 15:19
It's precisely unsportsman like. It's using something that isn't an integral part of the game to gain an advantage so you can win. It's the definition of being unsporting.

Lord Malorne
04-11-2010, 15:22
No it is not, in your opinion it is and I would not like to play a game the way you want to play it, simply because that is your philosophy, it is upto the player to know their own rules, I rarely forget a rule, but I don't go back and do the rule I forgot, because I forgot it, I did not do it, and I am not so childish as to mumble and blame my opponant for not reminding that I forgot it.

And I have yet to have a forgotten rule prevent the outcome of a game.

Vishok
04-11-2010, 15:32
Lord Malorne is totally correct, and our game is the exact same one that you others are playing.

Aside from that, a new point, since it's not cheating no matter what: why are you bawling about sportsmanship? There's absolutely nothing unsportsmanlike about that. Consider two teams playing baseball. It's up to each team to put players where they can do some harm to the other team - it's very tactical. However, no one would call 'foul sport' if one team forgot what it was doing - like the Rangers in the World Series this year.

Nothing unsportsmanlike at all. You opponent has failed. Victory is not hollow, for your opponent should have walked away from the game having learned something. Being a sallow cow and conceding the game to an opponent who can't remember 1 critical rule about his army in 1 critical instance (or a fool who can't remember anything at all about his army all the time, interchangeably) just because YOU FEEL BAD about how he can't play his game? That's utterly ridiculous and you should feel ashamed for cheapening the game.

It's exactly like Chess. If you are the more experienced player and in this situation, it's your duty to teach how to play the game and remember their rules. You are only propagating a weak mentality when you say that, in all cases, it's unsportsmanlike to allow your opponent to lose on his own by correcting his moves or reminding him of his bonuses, or telling him exactly where your weak spot is and that he's a ***** for not making you lose the game.

I do want to test myself against others. I don't have a WAAC attitude, but I do play to win. Anything less is doing your opponent, and the hobby a great disservice. Playing the game for your opponent is insulting to both of you, and the hobby.

Lord Malorne
04-11-2010, 15:35
Indeed, the next time I play someone, they are better.

Devon Harmon
04-11-2010, 16:09
It is my opinion that it is cheating by omission. You are not taking some overt, affirmative act, however you are remaining silent in the face of errors that you are aware of. I also feel that this is unsporsmanlike behavior as well. Mistakes are powerful learning tools, but we can only learn from them when we realize they are being made.

In my ideal hobby world, both players need to work together and communicate. Gaming, for me at least, is a social activity. So I tend to approach it the same way I would other mainstream social relationships: open and honest communication. But I'm not so naive as to think that everyone shares this same outlook. I don't mean to come across as "holier-than-thou;" a question was asked and feedback was requested, so I'm providing that.

Yes, when the clerk at the store gives me too much change, I give it back. That's how I roll. It works for me, but might not be for everybody.

N810
04-11-2010, 16:21
not cheating,
but rather unsportsman like.

Felwether
04-11-2010, 16:25
While it's not technically cheating, it's not exactly sporting or nice for that matter.

If I was one of your opponents and I found out... I'd be pissed.

grumbaki
04-11-2010, 16:29
Related question, as this has now been discussed.

Your oponent forgets to move a model, shoot, or cast magic. What do you do?

I'm thinking of situations where a hydra is about to slam into your flank and he forgets about it, an organ gun is going to destroy your fast cavalry who are poised to destroy his artillery and he forgets to shoot it, or he skips over an enitre magic phase. Is it poor sportsmanship not to point this out to him?

Vishok
04-11-2010, 16:30
While it's not technically cheating, it's not exactly sporting or nice for that matter.

If I was one of your opponents and I found out... I'd be pissed.

You found out what? You'd be pissed about what? The fact that you went to astro-world and had a bad time?:wtf:



Related question, as this has now been discussed.

Your oponent forgets to move a model, shoot, or cast magic. What do you do?

I'm thinking of situations where a hydra is about to slam into your flank and he forgets about it, an organ gun is going to destroy your fast cavalry who are poised to destroy his artillery and he forgets to shoot it, or he skips over an enitre magic phase. Is it poor sportsmanship not to point this out to him?

It's poor sportsmanship for him to attempt to skip phases. Under the right circumstances, this can do a lot to change what your opponent can do. I'm not having some guy "forgetting" how to play. That's his own fault.The price is steep, and he must pay it for his failure at the Cave.

Say you're playing basketball. If you shoot the ball at the wrong goal BECAUSE YOU FORGOT, that's ON YOU, YOU FAIL, points for the enemy team COUNT. I know I'm using sport analogies, hopefully you know what I mean.

Solun Decius
04-11-2010, 17:05
@Vishok: You have to separate making a bad move (bad tactics) from not making a required/forced dice roll (breaking rules). This is not like having men at the wrong place at a baseball game or shooting the wrong basket in basketball. That would be like putting your minis in bad places or shooting the wrong unit.
It's more like shooting at the basket but physics suddenly fail and the ball is suspended in mid air and you don't score because of it. We're talking about forgetting hatred rolls or forgetting to take some item or another into account when you roll to hit/wound/save.
It's totally not the same!

I'm not criticizing the way you play, god forbid, in a tourney against an experienced player I'll shut the hell up if I see he's about to make a lame move. Against inexperienced players (even in a tournament) however I help with dice rolling (not actually rolling dice for him though), explain rules and sometimes even give advice, or at least point out possibilities.
I still think the analogy with sports doesn't apply. They do have referees after all to make sure all rules are followed.

Leogun_91
04-11-2010, 17:18
Related question, as this has now been discussed.

Your oponent forgets to move a model, shoot, or cast magic. What do you do?

I'm thinking of situations where a hydra is about to slam into your flank and he forgets about it, an organ gun is going to destroy your fast cavalry who are poised to destroy his artillery and he forgets to shoot it, or he skips over an enitre magic phase. Is it poor sportsmanship not to point this out to him?I point it out to him and while I don't complain if anyone doesn't do the same for me (more than a facepalm occasionally) I do find it to be poor sportsmanship when you let something overly obvious pass. At times a certain action is so obvious that both players know that it's gonna be done and still, if the player forgets to openly declare this that fails, if someone doesn't declare charges when obvious ones are present I ask him if those units charged. If someone starts shooting before magic I ask if that is intended. If you notice when it's done it's easy to fix, it's when you find out later that it is too late and you ignore it.

Torpedo Vegas
04-11-2010, 17:22
I'd say that it is not cheating, but its kind of a dick move. Its not your job to make sure they know the rules, but I consider it being a poor sport.

Lord Inquisitor
04-11-2010, 17:40
I went for "cheating a little bit"... It's your opponent's responsibility to remember this sort of stuff and certainly there's no requirement to give you opponent advice if a certain special rule that is optional should be used. But if something is non-optional like hatred, then really both players should endevour to play by the rules. Deliberately not informing your opponent of a non-optional rule that would benefit him is only one step away from deliberately "forgetting" a rule that would negatively affect your troops, which would be cheating. Both players should work together to play the game by the rules.


Related question, as this has now been discussed.

Your oponent forgets to move a model, shoot, or cast magic. What do you do?

I'm thinking of situations where a hydra is about to slam into your flank and he forgets about it, an organ gun is going to destroy your fast cavalry who are poised to destroy his artillery and he forgets to shoot it, or he skips over an enitre magic phase. Is it poor sportsmanship not to point this out to him?

Depends. If we're talking about remembering a unit to charge, etc., that's optional. So it'd be nice to remind your opponent, but not cheating if you don't.

When it comes to things like the Magic Phase, I would say that allowing your opponent to progress to shooting means you've skipped out winds of magic and all that, so the rules of the game have been broken. Not taking the panic tests you should at the end of a phase is certainly cheating, even if your opponent forgets, for example.

Certainly with phases, it is good form if you're going to stick to the turn order strictly, to go through each phase properly - so remind your opponent that Declare Charges comes first. If you've done that - so you know the game order is being followed correctly - then it's up to him to declare all the charges at that step. Then if he doesn't declare a charge when you've both set out a declare charges step verbally, after that it's too late.

For example, it's pretty common to declare a charge, get excited and roll the dice before declaring all your charges. If you check with your opponent before he rolls the dice if that means he's declared all charges, you forgo a "aha! gotcha! you rolled the dice so no more charges for you!" moment that is decidedly unsportsmanlike. But if he says "yes, I've declared all my charges" and then remembers something else, well, you're well within rights to say tough.

So, follow the correct turn order, make sure both players do things correctly and by the rules. This can mean reminding an opponent indirectly about stuff like this. But after that, optional stuff is his responsibility to remember.

larabic
04-11-2010, 17:44
Not cheating having it screw you over a few times is the best way to remember... Blood Bowl with the illegal procedure for not moving your turn marker is the perfect example. GW wants you to remember the rules, not my problem if you can't remember who is stubborn or who has hatred. I am here to play a game not baby sit you and know all your rules.

ColShaw
04-11-2010, 17:47
A tournament director wouldn't throw you out, but yes, I think there may be a room around the first or second circle reserved for you. :)

Seriously, though. Non-optional rules should be played non-optionally. If you remember a required dice roll, compulsory move, whatever, and your opponent doesn't, I think there is a moral responsibility to remind him/her.

MarcoSkoll
04-11-2010, 18:00
No it is not (unsportsmanlike)
You're obviously going by a different definition of sportsmanlike to the rest of us:

Sportsman (Noun) (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sportsman)
2) a person who exhibits qualities especially esteemed in those who engage in sports, as fairness, courtesy, good temper, etc.

I would say, if you notice your opponent has forgotten a rule (at a time when it is appropriate to correct - if you realise afterwards, then it's another matter), it is both fair and courteous to point it out.
I'm sure you'd only be too quick to point out if they made a mistake that was to your disadvantage. To not point out the opposite is obvious bias.

"Forgetting" (note the quote marks) rules which are to your disadvantage is cheating. Doesn't matter whether it's yours or your opponent's rule, it's still bending the rules of the game and playing like a jerk.

At tournaments (at least, the ones I've been to), the sportsmanship award frequently goes to the person who has been most helpful to their opponent.
I'm not saying you're obligated to tell your opponent if he's made a bum move or other dodgy tactical decision (although I probably would give advice after the game), but I can and WILL tell my opponents when they've forgotten a rule, failed to move/shoot/fight, picked up less dice than they're supposed to be shooting or whatever.

As appears in several signatures around here: "The object of the game is to win. The point is to have fun."

If my opponent forgets something, it's going to wind him up if/when he remembers, and that's detrimental to their enjoyment of the game. If I can prevent that, then I will.

Obviously, I come from a somewhat different school of game playing to some of the people here, being a big player of Inquisitor - the game GW didn't even TRY to give game balance, so it demands fairness and sportsmanship from players - but I'm still disappointed to see how many people think this is acceptable in game.

minionboy
04-11-2010, 18:00
Cheating and unsporting are different things.

I wouldn't say it's cheating, but if I found out you were purposely doing stuff like that, I probably wouldn't play you again.

Jind_Singh
04-11-2010, 18:02
For the original question - I have ALWAYS pointed out to the player if he forgot a special rule such as re-roll with ASF, hatred, etc - I don't want any tainted wins on my mind as he forgot something core to his army. It's cheating - not like I'm bringing loaded dice or anything, but I'm allowing an abuse of rules so I'm cheating myself out of a fair and decent game - so I'll always make a point to remind them - even if means my prize unit is dead as doorknobs.


Related question, as this has now been discussed.

Your oponent forgets to move a model, shoot, or cast magic. What do you do?

I'm thinking of situations where a hydra is about to slam into your flank and he forgets about it, an organ gun is going to destroy your fast cavalry who are poised to destroy his artillery and he forgets to shoot it, or he skips over an enitre magic phase. Is it poor sportsmanship not to point this out to him?

Difficult - with regards to moving models - you don't really know what they intend to do with a model so it's hard to say if they forgot! If it's a clear case, i.e. the model is kinda hidden in terrain or it's waaaay over on the flank by itself and it's clear it was mean to be moved then move it.

But really to be honest in the heat of battle we forget to move units or declare charges - it's part of the game - the whole idea is making mistakes at crucial times can change the course of the battle! So forgetting to move a unit - tough call, I wouldn't move my own unit had I forgotten! Similar if I forget to call a crucial charge - too bad, so sad - I should have been paying proper attention so tough cookies to me! But if the player is nice and it's a nice game sure - let them do it, depends on the type of game too.

But as to skipping an entire phase, like going straight to shooting? No, I have to point it out - you can't miss out the magic phase, shooting phase, etc. But if they forgot to shoot a cannon? Too bad so sad! Maybe the gunners went off to do a 'number two' during the heat of the battle, so you got to remember things like that!

Lord of Divine Slaughter
04-11-2010, 18:26
Lord Malorne is totally correct, and our game is the exact same one that you others are playing.

Doubt that, the game you play seem to have a purpose in winning. The purpose of the game I play, is about making tactical decision within the framework of its rules. If my opponent and I skip out on the rules, then we aren't playing the game. They're rules not options.


Aside from that, a new point, since it's not cheating no matter what: why are you bawling about sportsmanship? There's absolutely nothing unsportsmanlike about that. Consider two teams playing baseball. It's up to each team to put players where they can do some harm to the other team - it's very tactical. However, no one would call 'foul sport' if one team forgot what it was doing - like the Rangers in the World Series this year.

What your 'sport' example illustrates is a 'tactical' choice. But we're talking about a 'technicality'. Its like the Rangers losing, because someone forgot to keep their score.


I do want to test myself against others. I don't have a WAAC attitude, but I do play to win. Anything less is doing your opponent, and the hobby a great disservice. Playing the game for your opponent is insulting to both of you, and the hobby.

You want to test yourself against others.. In what? Your ability to remember rules, or your ability to play the game within its rules?

Nothing wrong in playing to win, but if you stop playing by the rules, then you aren't playing the game.

Rochr
04-11-2010, 18:39
It is not cheating obviously but it shows a lack of sportsmanship.

MarcoSkoll
04-11-2010, 18:40
Cheating and unsporting are different things.
Are they that different, though?

Unsporting is little more than breaking the unwritten rules - in most games (be they tabletop, sports or whatever), the only difference is that "unsporting" is dishonest play they can't punish you for and "cheating" is dishonest play they can punish you for.
It's dishonest play either way.

mistrmoon
04-11-2010, 18:42
For a friendly or pick up game i always remind my opponent about as many things as possible to try and make the game fun, winning doesn't matter in a pick up game.
For a tournament game if they are a reasonable human being they get a single reminder or do-over, after that it is their own fault. I put in lots of time practicing playing a list and learning the rules, I'm not going to act as a crutch for my opponent because they can't be bothered in tournament setting.

Also i always thought the golden rule was:
'If you 'forget' a detrimental rule (eg animosity) then thats cheating and needs to be amended. If you forget a beneficial rule such as a reroll from ASF+higher I then that is your fault.'

D'Haran
04-11-2010, 19:11
If your opponent if forgetting special abilities and rules, doing things out of order, skipping phases, it's his own problem and you are not required to remind him of it or allow the game to regress and allow him to fill in the gaps. That said this is not really friendly play either, and I wouldn't even consider doing it in friendly games, for me it's a tournament only approach, and even then if I'm playing against a friend I'll usually give them the heads up, it really is a 'ard boyz approach to the game but it's legal.

Tymell
04-11-2010, 19:25
Original post: It's not really cheating, because you're not actively breaking any rules: there's no rule (to my knowledge) that says you are obliged to inform your opponent of rules they've forgotten.

But isn't very good sportsmanship either, if you know there's something in his/her favour and you're just not saying. And it's not that far off genuine cheating if you know the game isn't being played by the rules, because it should be whether the rule stems from you or your opponent.

It's also really for the best to remind opponents: if you're going with the "he should know the rules better" line of thought, then surely that's the best way to make sure he does in future?

WarmbloodedLizard
04-11-2010, 19:33
depends on wording. if a wording implies that the action is optional, it isn't cheating. if it does not, it is clearly cheating.

it's also horrible sportsmanship.

Felwether
04-11-2010, 20:02
You found out what? You'd be pissed about what? The fact that you went to astro-world and had a bad time?:wtf:

:eyebrows: Alright Vishok, keep your panties on...

If my opponent was knowingly keeping certain rules from me that I may not have been aware of and in doing so gained an advantage over the game then yeah, I'd be pissed off. And not because I went to 'astro-world' and had a bad time.

Of course anyone playing the game should really know the rules and naturally, should be aware of any special rules that directly concern their own army.

If I ever played against an opponent who may have forgotten a certain dice roll/effect etc etc that I was aware of I'd make sure to tell them. It's nice to be nice after all.

Lord Malorne
04-11-2010, 20:05
You're obviously (unsportsmanlike)


To be honest, warhammer is not a sport ;), secondly I have no idea where all these bearded howlers are coming from crying (:cries:) foul and shouting unsportsmanlike! at the top of their lungs get their justification, I have had a few games out of hundreds (no exaggeration, I have played hundreds of times) where it has become unenjoyable, that was through player personality, not... NOT a forgotten rule, I am a very sporting opponant and have had hundreds of enjoyable games.

Why should the way I play be dictated by your gaming philosophy. We play it as, you forget it, you forget it, more often than not we tell the other player at the end about it, we get better, we enjoy it, that is our philosophy and works. Do not blame others for your mistakes.

If someone forgets a rule they forget it, if two people are playing you do not backseat game and tell them what to do, what this does, what that does, that is unsportsmanlike, even if they are doing it wrong, by extension you should not do it in games, they have to learn, as I said I do tell people if they forget something, why? Because it has no bearing on the game, it is a small instance and will not change the outcome, may be so for you, but not I.

To sum up, you can be a player who does not remind people about forgetting their rules without being a souless **** as preached here.

Nuada
04-11-2010, 20:06
sometimes I know that my opponent has forgotten a rule or is not doing it properly and I just keep it to myself

It all depends on what you want from the game. If you're a competitive bunch of players, then yeah go for it. I'm sure there's many tournament players that do exactly the same. I wouldn't worry about it.

Got to say i'm the exact opposite. I not only tell my opponents when they've forgotten a rule, i also tell them how to beat me, and which units i struggle against.





EDIT... i think online that might sound bad. I don't walk a player through the game, it's only a comment/summary at the end of a game. For example my friend struggles with his dwarfs against my orcs. He'll try gyrocopters for 3 games, but they aren't great. So i suggested he should look at organ guns, now he max's out on organ guns. They cause me more problems

Bac5665
04-11-2010, 20:20
To be honest, warhammer is not a sport ;), secondly I have no idea where all these bearded howlers are coming from crying (:cries:) foul and shouting unsportsmanlike! at the top of their lungs get their justification, I have had a few games out of hundreds (no exaggeration, I have played hundreds of times) where it has become unenjoyable, that was through player personality, not... NOT a forgotten rule, I am a very sporting opponant and have had hundreds of enjoyable games.

Why should the way I play be dictated by your gaming philosophy. We play it as, you forget it, you forget it, more often than not we tell the other player at the end about it, we get better, we enjoy it, that is our philosophy and works. Do not blame others for your mistakes.

If someone forgets a rule they forget it, if two people are playing you do not backseat game and tell them what to do, what this does, what that does, that is unsportsmanlike, even if they are doing it wrong, by extension you should not do it in games, they have to learn, as I said I do tell people if they forget something, why? Because it has no bearing on the game, it is a small instance and will not change the outcome, may be so for you, but not I.

To sum up, you can be a player who does not remind people about forgetting their rules without being a souless **** as preached here.

Sportsmanship is clearly something that's relative to every gaming group, so you're correct that there is some subjectivity here.

Like most of these kinds of discussion on warseer, it all comes down to what you want out of the game. Are you looking to win? Are you looking for a cool story? Are you looking for an intellectual challenge? Well, most players are looking for some of all three, and the question is simply to rank order them. The reason why so many people think that not correcting rules mistakes by an opponent is bad is because it negatively affects both the story and the challenge.

If two of the three main reasons for playing the game are hurt by something, there's going to be some pushback, I know, as someone who plays for the tactical and strategic challenge, that having my opponent shoot themselves in the foot just makes the game a waste of time for me. I haven't learned anything or had to work for the win, it just sort of happened. This is the same thing.

What makes it bad sports is that it's something you can do that makes the game experience less valuable for a large portion of gamers.

Lord Malorne
04-11-2010, 20:28
Large portion? Not really, I have yet to meet gamers who get all sulky because I did not remind them about their rules, i've lived in three different cities.

Vsurma
04-11-2010, 20:33
It depends, if they forget an rule relating to their army and you know but don't say then no I would not say its cheating, but if it is the other way around, say your unit has stupidity, but don't say so to avoid the roll that is cheating.

I point out the errors even if they are against me as I feel much better winning a genuine game played right, not one where I didn't mention a critical rule.

Dungeon_Lawyer
04-11-2010, 20:50
unsportmanslike conduct--but not cheating.

DaemonReign
04-11-2010, 21:05
It's only a game - but as such if you're not sticking by the rules then you're cheating, and wilfully not following the rules is pointless - why bother if it's not on the level. You're deliberately keeping quiet, debasing the game specifically to win.

The fun of playing is all that matters, not winning. Winning like that would make me feel tainted since you haven't really won at all.

Quoted for truth.

Take a step back from the table. Both players should be able to look at the battle from each side's point of view. Let what actually happens on the table be a story played out rather than a cut-throat chess-game. That's the way to enjoy Warhammer. Reminding each other how to play the game correctly should be a basic principle of sportsmanship, me thinks.

Just because it's the sort of cheating you can't "get caught" for doesn't mean it ain't cheating. There are degrees of course.. but still.

w3rm
04-11-2010, 21:13
No its not. My group of friends have all been playing for at least a year some over 3. If they forget a rule that they should know then its thier fault. Its thier job to be familiar with their army and their rules not yours.

Now if they forget a rule that's a disadvantage(Stupidity, Animosity, ect.) Then thats cheating.

Felwether
04-11-2010, 21:19
No its not. My group of friends have all been playing for at least a year some over 3. If they forget a rule that they should know then its thier fault. Its thier job to be familiar with their army and their rules not yours.

Now if they forget a rule that's a disadvantage(Stupidity, Animosity, ect.) Then thats cheating.


Double standard much?

ColShaw
04-11-2010, 21:24
No its not. My group of friends have all been playing for at least a year some over 3. If they forget a rule that they should know then its thier fault. Its thier job to be familiar with their army and their rules not yours.

Now if they forget a rule that's a disadvantage(Stupidity, Animosity, ect.) Then thats cheating.

So... it's their responsibility to know their army's strengths and weakneeses both, but only cheating if they forget something that goes against them?

Sigh.

MarcoSkoll
04-11-2010, 21:25
I am a very sporting opponent
Given you're of the attitude that "forgetting" things because it's to your advantage is the done thing, I find it slightly difficult to just take your word on that.


If someone forgets a rule they forget it, if two people are playing you do not backseat game and tell them what to do
Someone forgets to take their Panic test. Someone forgets to take an Animosity roll. Someone fails to notice a miscast.

Do you not point these things out?

Nobody here - NOBODY - would work on a unfettered principle of "just let the enemy play as they remember the rules". Don't try and pretend you do - I may be crazy, but I'm not an idiot (to paraphrase my signature from another forum).

So, you are clearly being selective of when you correct the opponent's knowledge of the rules, and you are being selective in your favour. Hence, you are manipulating the game's rules to your advantage, and even if that's not necessarily cheating (in that you can't strictly get caught), you're not exactly playing fair.


To sum up, you can be a player who does not remind people about forgetting their rules without being a souless **** as preached here.
Sure, there are times this is acceptable - usually when you also forgot.

I don't want, at any point, to have the feeling that any victory was reliant, however little, on having allowed the rules to be bent. (And I don't really want to know that about my defeats, either.)
If I win, I want to win properly.

The ultimate point of the game is for everyone to enjoy themselves. And in some of the games I most remember and enjoyed, I lost - and rather badly.
When you look at it, the game is model figurines and dice. I enjoy it greatly, but winning at a game of soldiers doesn't mean enough to me that I feel I need to play outside the rules.

If there's anyone it does mean enough to... I do wonder if they have their priorities in quite the right order.


They have to learn
People learn by doing things in context. If you remind them after the game, they're less likely to make the mental associations.

People don't learn how to drive a car by just being told how, they have to practise it as well.


Large portion? Not really, I have yet to meet gamers who get all sulky because I did not remind them about their rules, I've lived in three different cities.
I have yet to meet a gamer who didn't appreciate being me reminding them of their mistake - and other than you, suggest I was unsportsmanlike for doing so.

Vishok
04-11-2010, 21:55
People are being very sanctimonious today, eh?

ColShaw
04-11-2010, 21:59
People are being very sanctimonious today, eh?

On the question of cheating? Absolutely.

Accusing someone of being sanctimonious is not a legitimate counterargument.

wizbix
04-11-2010, 22:13
Not strictly cheating but also not really within the spirit of a 'friendly' game.

logan054
04-11-2010, 22:19
You forgot an option, its not cheating but its rather c***ish.

I agree unless the person you are playing is complete tool, I also think you poll is missing a important vote "While its not cheating it's certainly very unsporting" I think you people need to learn that warhammer is a game, its about having fun

MarcoSkoll
04-11-2010, 22:32
People are being very sanctimonious today, eh?
I'll not pretend I have never "forgotten" a rule, jogged dice or whatever. Everyone has at one time.

That doesn't mean I haven't seen the error of those ways and started to play straight. There's no point in cheating - the game always ends the same way regardless.
That is, two (or however many it may be) armies go back in their boxes. All cheating means is that they might go back in the box sooner and never meet at the same table again - and yes, I have left games if I've found out that my opponent is cheating or otherwise being a jerk. I haven't the time in my life to waste around such petty and shallow people.

Elyssia
04-11-2010, 22:43
I can't believe people are actually saying, that it is not cheating?!

What delusion are you suffering from, that your responsibility to make sure the game is played by the rules, ends at the end of your turn and resumes on the start of your next turn?

If you don't remind an opponent of something that is optional (like a charge, or a 'may' ability), you are in the clear, but if it's a 'must' situation, you have to remind your opponent or you ARE cheating.

This is not subject to opinion. A game has rules, the rules must be enforced by ALL participants at ALL time, or be considered cheating.

If people claim it to be 'just unsporting, but not cheating', they have probably become so accustomed to cheating is this manner themselves, that they can't see this logical and moral line anymore.

Rules are rules and all participants are responsible for their proper execution. Deluding yourself into thinking anything else, is simply being in denial of being a cheater (or someone accepts cheating as normal behaviour).

enygma7
04-11-2010, 23:06
Although rather forthright in tone I have to agree with Elyssia. The rules are the rules and should be applied without bias. If a rule is compulsery and your opponent forgets then not reminding them is cheating - it doesn't magically become not cheating because the rule is of benefit to your opponent. It may be "low level" cheating (i.e. not the same degree of cheating as using loaded dice or lying about rules) but it is cheating none the less.

Regarding the supplemental question of whether you should remind your opponent if they forget to declare a charge or some other act of ommission that they obviously intended to do, this obviously isn't cheating and whether or not it is unsporting is obviously subjective and dependent on the environment (friendly or tourni). Personally I always would remind my opponent (even in a tourniment) unless they had shown themselves through their actions either to be a complete tool or had previously shown they would not do the same for me.

Tymell
04-11-2010, 23:07
It all depends on what you want from the game. If you're a competitive bunch of players, then yeah go for it.

Thing is, even then I can't understand it. If you're a competitive player who enjoys playing to win, then where is the satisfaction if it comes as a result of a game that wasn't done by the rules? :confused:

jthdotcom
04-11-2010, 23:33
If the player is new to the army or to the game, I will remind them, if they're not so new, or do just forget when I know they know the rules, I'll let it past and then remind them afterwards so they can remember for next turn

Nuada
04-11-2010, 23:51
Thing is, even then I can't understand it. If you're a competitive player who enjoys playing to win, then where is the satisfaction if it comes as a result of a game that wasn't done by the rules? :confused:

I think the satisfaction comes with bragging rights after the game.

I know a player that has this mentality. He isn't bothered how he wins, just as long as he does. The small details are forgotten after a week, it's the win/lose record that matters to him, that's the satisfaction.

Wishing
04-11-2010, 23:56
This discussion reminds me a bit of the rules about moving the turn counter in blood bowl. Moving the turn counter is an integral part of the game that you do to keep track of how many turns have passed, but at the same time it is something that is easy to forget when you're trying to plan your strategy. Forgetting to move the counter is clearly something that would normally not be covered by the rules - it needs to happen for the game to function - but the designers recognised that people forgot to do it so often that they actually made it into a rule that if you forgot to move the counter, and your opponent noticed, they could use it as a tool to stop your turn at any time by reminding you.

It's only tangentially related to the point of the thread, but it is a reminder that GW knows that people make mistakes sometime, and that it doesn't have to be such a serious thing. The last club I played in really despised and banned that rule, seeing it as the height of bad sportsmanship to take advantage of an opponent accidentally forgetting a mandatory rule, but I always enjoyed it and thought it was great fun to have that extra bit of danger in the game. It taught you to remember that damn turn counter if nothing else. :)

Haravikk
05-11-2010, 00:10
I'd say that it may be unsporting rather than cheating, as your opponent should know their own rules. But if you remember one of their rules then you should really point it out, as otherwise you may be winning due to your opponent's ignorance :)

Besides which, if you help jog an opponent's memory then they may be more inclined to return the favour, or let you do something you forgot yourself, it's all in the spirit of the game and of good fun.

Leogun_91
05-11-2010, 09:38
Large portion? Not really, I have yet to meet gamers who get all sulky because I did not remind them about their rules, i've lived in three different cities.I would never get sulky for such a thing but when your opponent does remind you these kinds of things the game most often feels more friendly and welcoming and you find playing the same opponent again more appealing. Few players would get sulky by you not doing it but many would appreciate you reminding them of rules.
Try it once in a while and see how it effects the game, you might be pleasantly surprised.

Darkspear
05-11-2010, 16:50
Personally I will not count it as teaching. But I will prefer to win a game due to my own skill rather than my opponents forgetfulness.

theorox
05-11-2010, 17:06
Yes! Remind him. That is seriously bad manners and i wouldn't like to play you if you tried to cheat like that, i wouldn't dream of not reminding you.

Theo

Torpedo Vegas
05-11-2010, 17:08
I can't believe people are actually saying, that it is not cheating?!

What delusion are you suffering from, that your responsibility to make sure the game is played by the rules, ends at the end of your turn and resumes on the start of your next turn?

If you don't remind an opponent of something that is optional (like a charge, or a 'may' ability), you are in the clear, but if it's a 'must' situation, you have to remind your opponent or you ARE cheating.

This is not subject to opinion. A game has rules, the rules must be enforced by ALL participants at ALL time, or be considered cheating.

If people claim it to be 'just unsporting, but not cheating', they have probably become so accustomed to cheating is this manner themselves, that they can't see this logical and moral line anymore.

Rules are rules and all participants are responsible for their proper execution. Deluding yourself into thinking anything else, is simply being in denial of being a cheater (or someone accepts cheating as normal behaviour).
Perfect example of Lawful Nuetral. :yes:
I also agree, if it is a "must" rule then it is cheating. If you ignore a rule on purpose, then how is it diffrent then making up rules or loading dice? Its not.

WarmbloodedLizard
05-11-2010, 17:15
Although rather forthright in tone I have to agree with Elyssia. The rules are the rules and should be applied without bias. If a rule is compulsery and your opponent forgets then not reminding them is cheating - it doesn't magically become not cheating because the rule is of benefit to your opponent. It may be "low level" cheating (i.e. not the same degree of cheating as using loaded dice or lying about rules) but it is cheating none the less.

Regarding the supplemental question of whether you should remind your opponent if they forget to declare a charge or some other act of ommission that they obviously intended to do, this obviously isn't cheating and whether or not it is unsporting is obviously subjective and dependent on the environment (friendly or tourni). Personally I always would remind my opponent (even in a tourniment) unless they had shown themselves through their actions either to be a complete tool or had previously shown they would not do the same for me.

I agree 100% :)

Gimp
05-11-2010, 17:17
Its not cheating, people should really know their own rules.

However on a personal level I would always tell someone if they had forgotten a rule in the spirit of the game.

I like to think that I have grown out of the "win at all costs" phase and i play more just for teh lulz :/

Triple7s
05-11-2010, 17:44
I wouldn't say its cheating as such. You should both be helping each other out with stuff you forget though.

Having said that, if it gets to where it becomes clear that your opponents haven't bothered to learn what the list they have can do, or haven't bothered learning the rules, by all means stop reminding them. Theres a point where people need to learn how to do things for themselves.

Jormi_Boced
05-11-2010, 17:45
I guess for me it is on a case by case basis. I don't try to assume my opponent's best move as he may have a different and quite probalby better plan than I. If he completly skips something like shooting witha unit that there is no reason for him to not shoot with I will remind him.

Cpt. Drill
05-11-2010, 18:08
This is clearly cheating, Although you are not directly breaking the rules your inaction is. If an opponent forgot they had stupidity undoubtedly you would remind them but if you gain an advantage and dont tell them about it seems really lame and probably leads to hollow victories.

I think just the fact that this question needs to be asked already means you feel guilty for exploiting other peoples inexperience to win battles.

WarmbloodedLizard
05-11-2010, 18:20
I guess for me it is on a case by case basis. I don't try to assume my opponent's best move as he may have a different and quite probalby better plan than I. If he completly skips something like shooting witha unit that there is no reason for him to not shoot with I will remind him.

that's not the same thing. shooting, charging, etc is optional. hatred isn't. you HAVE to re-roll failed misses. if you see this and don't tell your opponent, you are cheating, that's just fact. (it doesn't matter that no one can prove you cheated)

logan054
05-11-2010, 18:27
This is clearly cheating, Although you are not directly breaking the rules your inaction is. If an opponent forgot they had stupidity undoubtedly you would remind them but if you gain an advantage and dont tell them about it seems really lame and probably leads to hollow victories..

Well I think after reading a few more replies I have to agree with it being cheating, I wonder how many people out of those who thought it isn't cheating would still class it as cheating if I forget to take a stupidity test for a item I had. I know I very often forget things, then again I try not to learn the rules so thoroughly these days, I find I enjoy my games of warhammer far more.

Isstvan
05-11-2010, 18:32
The number one rule of any game is don't be a dick. If you have to ask if what you're doing is cheating, you're being a dick. If you have to ask if what you're doing is in bad taste, you're being a dick. 'Nuff said.

Lord Malorne
05-11-2010, 18:32
I would never get sulky for such a thing but when your opponent does remind you these kinds of things the game most often feels more friendly and welcoming and you find playing the same opponent again more appealing. Few players would get sulky by you not doing it but many would appreciate you reminding them of rules.
Try it once in a while and see how it effects the game, you might be pleasantly surprised.

I'm not a player who does not remind people about rules, nor a player who only reminds them about rules that give me an advantage, if they keep forgetting a rule I will remind them, as they kindly remind me, i'm very open in a game, what I don't like hearing is that it is unsportsmanlike.

Cpt. Drill
05-11-2010, 18:50
Well I think after reading a few more replies I have to agree with it being cheating, I wonder how many people out of those who thought it isn't cheating would still class it as cheating if I forget to take a stupidity test for a item I had. I know I very often forget things, then again I try not to learn the rules so thoroughly these days, I find I enjoy my games of warhammer far more.

If you honestly forgot a special rule it clearly isnt cheating everyone makes mistakes and no one can be to annoyed about that. If you were to purposefully not take a stupidity test because your opponent probably wouldnt realise then that is cheating.

logan054
05-11-2010, 18:56
While thats true if you have never meet someone before how can you know for sure? I guess it depends if your the type who plays the same people or actually play a different people all the time. I know with me if I don't tell my opponent before the game starts someone has the helm of many eyes I forget to take the test.

PaintByNumbers
05-11-2010, 19:29
While I would consider being selective of what rules you decide to follow as cheating (unless both parties have agreed on the rules before hand), this simply boils down to how your decision will affect your moral compass. After all, how is your opponent going to know you failed to remind them about rule xyz?

Personally I would like to be reminded of all the rules, not just the ones that negatively affect me, and I feel obliged to remind my opponent of beneficial rules they have forgotten. This has the effect of building trust, but if you're not interested in building trust, then do whatever you think is going to keep your conscience clear.

Maxus
05-11-2010, 20:04
Hm, first of all thanks a lot for the output, as you have guessed the reason why I'm asking is of course somehow I feel bad about it but sometimes I just could not be bothered: 90% of the time I point out things and rules he should have applied, I even remind him for example that he forgot to shoot with that unit, or for example that with that template he can target my character and such. But there are just times, either I couldn't be bothered to point out for the tenth time that his wand of something may storage power dice and he should use it during my magic phase etc, after first 3 times of reminding it, it somewhat gets old. The other moment I can be susceptible to do it is when I am feeling blatantly out of luck when say 3 of my warmachines have exploded in said turn. However I would never do that to a beginner, I myself started playing a month ago so ...

I've been reading and skimming the responses, and I do have to say this is an interesting topic. If the OP has to keep reminding his opponent, there comes a point where you just get tired of reminding and reminding about a rule, or a possibility of an action. The opponent has to at some point learn. If it doesn't happen, the OP needs to find another/better opponent.

As for is this cheating vs unsportsmanship:

If you are blatantly using a rule to your advantage or breaking a rule your opponent doesn't know about, you are cheating.

Example: In the change to the latest edition of 40k, models in terminator armour cannot make a sweeping advance. If you know this rule, and perform a sweeping advance, and your opponent doesn't call you on it, and you keep doing it knowing you are breaking the rules, you are cheating and unsportsmanship like (this happened in a tournament, around the change to the new addition, the person telling the story got wiped off the table in the first round by sweeping advancing terminators, when he found out about the rule, and then pointed out to the offender, the offender then said, yea i knew about the rule, but you didn't)

If you know about a rule that must happen and you ignore it, whether to your or opponents advantage. You are breaking the rules. Cheating maybe a grey area, if this is the first time you have faced this opponent in say a tournament or even causal play, yea you are a minor offender if you remember before, or just after the action happens. If you have to keep reminding your opponent of a must happen rule, you need to tell your opponent that he needs to remember this rule also because you may not be able to remember it all the time, tell them they need to know their rules for their army inside and out. If its a new army, ok, cut some slack, if you have to write on a piece of paper for them that they have x rule on y model, do it. There is a point to where your opponent has to take responsibility for their army and their rules. But its also your responsibilty to not break rules that you know must happen.

Example: A model with the Hatred special rule, there is not may or can clause. "A model striking a hated foe in close combat re-rolls all misses during the first round of combat". It has to happen, and if you need to write this down on a piece of scrap paper and put it behind the unit for them because they keep forgetting, do it.

If its a can rule, you aren't cheating if you don't point it out, but its it gets into the grey area of sportsmanship. Again if you have to keep reminding them they can do it, they have to learn at some point, you either nurture them and eventually write it down on a piece of paper, or point it out to them at the beginning of the game that they can do this. If its a tactics issue, you can always point it out at the game, or after the game, and you would have done something else. Or you can smack them with the newspaper on the nose and say "bad player" and wipe them off the table, and then point out the can rules, and say you need to remember this stuff or I will end up wiping you out all the time.

Example: It says in Always Strikes First, "In addition, if the model's Initiatie is equal to or higher than his enemy's, he can re-roll failed misses when striking in close combat". If you have to remind your opponent consistently, at some point they need to take responsibility for not remembering, so write it down on a piece of paper for them, or figuratively smack them on the nose until they remember.

Feefait
05-11-2010, 20:56
I look at it this way: an opponent has a couple free reminders from me before I say forget it. If they continually forget to roll their armor save or use their generals leadership, bsb etc and i have already reminded them in this game then it's too bad for them.
As an example in my last game with HE my opponent forgot his reroll for higher initiative + asf. I reminded him even though it meant potentially losing the combat. In the game before that I reminded my opponent - playing WoC multiple times about his Tzeentch ward save. By turn 3 I figured if he didn't count it, or couldn't remember it then I was under no obligation to either.
I do think it's good sportsmanship to remind an opponent if they forgot to declare a charge, move a unit or dispel a spell for example. I would always do that. and expect a friendly opponent to do the same. I had a game where i had a solo Scarvet on a Cold One thta I moved behind a tree and forgot about. My opponent said later he thought I had a plan for it and that's why I left him. That didn't sit so well... but i understand. :)

theorox
05-11-2010, 21:12
So it seems like most of us agree that you should remind your opponent of these things? I take that as a good sign for Warseer. :D

Theo

enygma7
05-11-2010, 22:55
The opponent has to at some point learn. If it doesn't happen, the OP needs to find another/better opponent.


Yeah, theres been a lot of commentary on whether it is/isn't cheating, but this seems to be more of a problem with repeated forgetfulness on the part of one opponent to the extent the OP is tired of reminding him. In my view deliberately not pointing out rules won't solve the problem or make the game any more enjoyable (as well as being cheating if the rule is compulsary).

I'd suggest having a chat with the player in question and explaining the situation and maybe suggest some solutions (like the use of que cards or tokens as memory aids). Either that or just find someone else to play if they really are that annoying!

Glasscannon
06-11-2010, 05:53
Im a very laid back sort of player if a move or reroll is forgotten I will point it out immediately. Using your example I don't believe you are obligated to tell him but if I were in that position I would. If the person later on remembers what he didn't do it puts a sour tone to the game and can ruin the fun and in a worst case scenario might make them think twice about playing you again (not because you cheated them, but because they felt cheated)

On another note many times ive reminded someone of something in a game and when ive made a mistake they are very happy to allow me to rectify it, what goes around comes around.

Eternus
06-11-2010, 13:59
If I kept forgetting stuff I'd definitely make myself up a little reminder card, and work through it each turn until I didn't need it anymore. Maybe what's needed is to say to a forgetful opponent 'I'm not going to remind you of this again, it's up to you to remember' and stop reminding them of stuff that benefits them.

Hopefully, it will only take one game of them forgetting to do major stuff that loses them the game badly to get the point and take steps to remind them of stuff.

Harwammer
06-11-2010, 14:38
^ I think, to be fair, if you are going to stop reminding them of the beneficial stuff they neglect you should also stop reminding them of the detrimental stuff too. If you don't you are just teaching them checking their own stupid/panic/etc tests are taken is their opponents responsibility.

Players should take responsibility for making sure all rules are followed (good or bad)