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kaubin
04-11-2010, 19:57
Hello,

I will be playing a game tonight against either one of the two undeads or empire. I built two lists with only one fundamental difference, and can't seem to pick one or the other, so I thought i'd ask which looks funner. The difference is to replace a block of warriors for an assassin, which could be interesting if i'm playing undead, as killing the general would win the game, but at the same time, if the scenario is blood and glory, the extra standard would be much more useful. I'm also hesitating between using shadow or death on my peg sorc, as death is great for assassination, but shadow looks very useful too.

here is list 1, with 11 points to spare...

Supreme Sorc, LvL 4, Pegasus, Pendant of Khaleth, Black Dragon Egg, Focus Familiar

Cauldron of Blood Hag Queen, BSB
Sorc, Feedback Scroll

20 Dark Elf Warriors, Shields, Command
2 X 5 Dark Riders, Xbows, Musician
20 Crossbowmen
2 X 5 harpies
20 Black Ark Corsairs, extra hand weapon, command, Sea serpent standard

20 Witch Elves, Command, Banner of murder
5 Shades
2 Cold One Chariots

Hydra

and here is list 2:


Supreme Sorc, LvL 4, Pegasus, Pendant of Khaleth, Black Dragon Egg, Focus Familiar

Cauldron of Blood Hag Queen, BSB
Sorc, Feedback Scroll


2 X 5 Dark Riders, Xbows
20 Crossbowmen
2 X 5 harpies
20 Black Ark Corsairs, extra hand weapon, command, Sea serpent standard
Assassin, extra hand weapon, Touch of Death, Rune of Khaine, Black lotus

20 Witch Elves, Command, Banner of murder
5 Shades
2 Cold One Chariots

Hydra

Also with 11 points left over, I removed the musicians on the dark riders and the warriors to make up the points. Either be going in the shades (although risky at only 5 shades), or in a block lined up with the juiciest character.

Any thoughts/comments more than welcome. Thanks.

Kirbinator
05-11-2010, 03:27
Supreme Sorceress: I like the Pegasus, Familiar, and Pendant. Just be careful of non-strength wounds like Fate of Bhuja, Feedback scrolls, and miscasts. Against 90% of the game you'll be fine with the Pendant. I'm not a fan of the Black Dragon Egg on her, it's just 30 points I'd rather put elsewhere. She should really never be in combat to make use of it. I really love Shadow magic. The hexes are more important than Pendulum and Pit. You can totally remove a scary unit's threat by dropping it down to M1-2 each turn with the signature spell and The Withering is just too amazing for words when combined with our Crossbows.

Sorceress: Needs a level 2 upgrade. While the Feedback Scroll is neat, I feel giving her the combination of Tome of Furion and Seal of Ghrond provides a better magic offense (extra spell) and defense (extra dispel die) throughout the entire game, every game. Yes, you may get lucky and Feedback an opponent's caster into oblivion, but more than likely you'll just get one or two wounds which will bounce off of a ward save. Having three spells also gives her a decent range of being a great support caster with Lore of Metal, Fire, or even our own Dark Magic.

Cauldron BSB: Love this thing!

Spearmen: I'm not really a big fan of both Spearmen and Corsairs in a single list, I see them as an either/or kind of thing. Spearmen are cheaper, but Corsairs get significantly more attacks and a better armor save against shooting. If you're bringing Corsairs anyway, I'd just drop the Spearmen and invest points elsewhere, like more Crossbowmen!

Corsairs: If you're going to bring them, I'd suggest finding the points for a couple more of them. They don't really need a Champion since he just adds one more attack and costs as much as another Corsair (who gives you three). I'd bump these guys up to 24 for a 6x4 block, giving you 24 attacks between the front rank and supporting ones.

Crossbowmen: These have really become our default troop choice, and for good reason. They get the same 5+ armor save that spearmen do, but also get the 6+ parry ward save in combat. It may not seem like much, but it can mean the difference between holding a charge and not. Further, Crossbowmen unleash an unholy torrent of shots that when coupled with things like The Withering (lowers enemy Toughness, Shadow), Blades of Abain (+1 to hit, Metal), or Flaming Sword (flaming attacks and +1 to wound, Fire) can really lay on the pain. As you can see, they combine with both your Lv.4 and your Lv.2 wizards very well and a second unit of 20 would be handy.

Dark Riders: I feel they are not nearly as good as they were in 7th edition. They were great for baiting Frenzied units, march blocking, harassment, and killing War Machines. In 8th, baiting Frenzied units and March Blocking are both pretty much dead since it's based on a leadership check rather than being a guaranteed effect. They're fairly expensive for what they do and die to a harsh glare. I prefer Shades for my War Machine hunting purposes since they'll be at close range turn 1 and Harpies for general harassment and screening. If you were to take them, I wouldn't take more than one set.

Witch Elves: I love these girls! They will buzzsaw right through the big blocks of infantry people like to use nowadays. With a 5+ Ward from the Cauldron these ladies are pretty well-protected and once they hit combat your opponent is in for a surprise if they don't know what's coming. Now that combat speed is based on Initiative, their I6 is a huge boon. The Banner of Murder is a great compliment to them, as is the Banner of Eternal Flame if you know you'll be fighting a bunch of regen or monsters.

Shades: My preferred War Machine and harassment unit. I tend to take one or two groups of 6-7 and toss on additional hand weapons if points allow. Do not feel that you must always scout ahead with them during deployment. If there is no good place to put them, it's safer to hang back and shoot down small harassment units that get close.

Chariots: Great. Hits nearly as hard as a 5-pack of Knights and is cheaper and more maneuverable. I prefer taking them in pairs like you have.

Hydra: Who doesn't love a hydra?

Edit: Wow, did not mean for that to be a wall of text!

frapermax
05-11-2010, 07:19
Hi, I think both lists are very effective. Personally I prefer the extra troops above the assassin, but that's more a question of playing style I guess.
I also take 2 groups of 12-14 witches to maximize their effectiveness and minimize their vulnerability to spells and shooting.
Chariots are top indeed.
I agree with most of Kirbinator's remarks, apart from the one about dark riders.
I think they are still very useful for sheer speed and also for a defensive role against things like chameleons, gutter runners etc... That is because I take 2 RBT's and no hydra. The DR can keep my warmachines alive for a lot longer.
DE are still a very powerful army. IMO their main weakness is massed S3-4 shooting and spam spell damage. Those are your primary targets. Once these are gone, you will be hard to stop.
just my 2 cents
fpm

kaubin
05-11-2010, 15:27
Thanks for the comments. In the end though, I played the game before getting advice, and went for something completely different with a large unit of dark riders, put the second sorc level 2 and on a steed, and ended up dropping the two chariots. I ended up playing against empire, and the huge unit was down to just a few by the second turn. I also went with lore of death, which was dissapointing, and my multi attack warriors were grinded down by huge empire blocks and bad luck on the close combat rolls. Shooting was good though :p The feedback scroll almost worked well, but in the end was just 1 wound short, and the spell I let through for that spell really hurt. Don't think i'll field it again.

Next time i'll probably go with more chariots, more shades, more Hydra, and more metal or shadow magic.