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Hashulaman
04-11-2010, 22:18
What army you hate playing against, especially at a tournament when the gloves come off and why? I don't like fighting skaven, I really, really do not like fighting against something that can be stubborn for the entire game even if you butcher 10 models per turn. Their magic is negligable, but those bells are extremly hard to kill and they know to lock up with my Deathstar unit and keep it stuck there for the enitre game. Plague Furnaces suck too.

Wakerofgods
04-11-2010, 22:25
Wood elves - but in friendly games. Hate them. Also, this is in 7th edition.

sssk
04-11-2010, 22:46
At the moment it's got to be orcs and goblins. There's one reason for this, and one reason alone. I play wood elves, and subsequently getting into combat doesn't tend to end well unless it is on my terms. Conversely, the orc player just needs to cast WAAAAAGH with 6 dice, and it will deffinitely be cast (not definitely irrisistably) and his units will all then all charge my units and in one "I win button" manouver, utterly butcher me (as they're all re-roll misses and ASF).

That's just not fun.

King_Pash
04-11-2010, 22:59
I must admit a seriously tooled out Skaven force is a hard one for me. I'm used to being outnumbered (I play High Elves) but it's the fact that I have yet to find a weakness in their army. Good shooting (warplightning cannon, weapon teams, Doomrocket, Plagueclaw catapult) - check. Good magic combos (Dreaded 13th, Scalm, Power Scroll as well as lots of cheap casters) - check. Good combat (Abomb, Slave pits, Plague Cencer Bearers). Good Leadership and cheap units. HOW THE HELL ARE YOU MEANT TO WIN AGAINST THIS?!

As you can see, I am a tad miffed about those damn rats.. :/

bluemage
04-11-2010, 23:17
Well so far there aren't any armies I hate facing, just players. I just want to have a good time playing.

bigcheese76
04-11-2010, 23:20
Well, its not necacerily in a tournament situation, its just that I really dont like playing full skirmish armies, such as Wood Elf Dryad lists as they wont line up for my cannons and they are even better than most at out manouvering my dwarves.

theunwantedbeing
04-11-2010, 23:20
I'm getting fed up of playing chaos to be honest.
5+ to wound, 4+ armour save at worst after my armour piercing bolts have hit them....
In5 is irritating as well as their stuff does tend to butcher mine.

The most annoying bit is my mages haven't really mastered damaging the enemy with Searing Doom at all. Plenty of irresistable force losing me most of my dice and blowing away nearby elves who are keeping the mage safe from being shot at but not much in the way of melting the enemy....
Typical damage tends to be 1 hit and no wounds...on knights! Even when they haven't got ward saves...

eyescrossed
04-11-2010, 23:22
HOW THE HELL ARE YOU MEANT TO WIN AGAINST THIS?!
Take Teclis.

Xzazzarai
05-11-2010, 00:31
I must admit a seriously tooled out Skaven force is a hard one for me. I'm used to being outnumbered (I play High Elves) but it's the fact that I have yet to find a weakness in their army. Good shooting (warplightning cannon, weapon teams, Doomrocket, Plagueclaw catapult) - check. Good magic combos (Dreaded 13th, Scalm, Power Scroll as well as lots of cheap casters) - check. Good combat (Abomb, Slave pits, Plague Cencer Bearers). Good Leadership and cheap units. HOW THE HELL ARE YOU MEANT TO WIN AGAINST THIS?!

As you can see, I am a tad miffed about those damn rats.. :/

Kill the characters and see what happens...

I'm a Dark Elf player and I'm going up against a tough skaven list tomorrow.
Let's see if some Death Magic can solve the problem for me...

Silentbob10
05-11-2010, 00:46
WOC doesnt matter what i do i simply cant get past their stat line and armour drives me man

King_Pash
05-11-2010, 01:44
Yeah, I've fielded a L1 Death Prince but for all the ward + magic res they pack (2+ on the Bell!) it's hard to put any real damage on them. Perhaps I was doing it wrong but it's not been easy so far.

bluemage
05-11-2010, 02:07
Use death magic on the bsb, they tend to be far less protected. As for killing a grey seer on a bell, it depends on the army you're playing. You could try death magic on the bell and just hope he fails a lot of 2+ ward saves in addition to shooting it. Once its gone the grey seer looses his ward and magic resistance and then death magic will kill him pretty quick.

thechosenone
05-11-2010, 02:14
I hate Teclis lists and players that take any pride from having won a game with this character. Teclis+another wizard is as point and click as it gets. Good job teclis players

Grey Mage
05-11-2010, 02:40
What army you hate playing against, especially at a tournament when the gloves come off and why?

Gunline Dwarves.

Seriously. Boring as hell to fight against, and all I can do is try to shut down their shooting with Lore of Heavens and Try to get off the double-move spell from lore of light to make sure Im there in one peice. Once that happens, Saurus tend to clean up nicely, but still... thats one turn of doing much of anything with more than half my army. :wtf: And most dwarf players I know agree its not all that interesting for them either, wich makes it doubly :wtf:.

Other than that... Meh, Im good. High Elves are a good challenge, Wood Elves are fun to see, Skaven are easy to chomp, and O+G are just funny.

freddieyu
05-11-2010, 02:47
I hate Teclis lists and players that take any pride from having won a game with this character. Teclis+another wizard is as point and click as it gets. Good job teclis players

This I second....

Vaughnilla619
05-11-2010, 02:57
Warriors of chaos. Nothing comes close to their warriors. Korne w/ halberds wreck bcuz a front rank of 6 with a champion puts out 19 S5 attacks. Tzeench with hw/s have a 3+ AS and a 5+ ward.

Chosen Tzeench with the frenzy banner makes them basically Korne with a 6+ ward. Then add in 2 warshrines and the itm that allows you to adjust the roll on the eye of the god chart. Plus you can re roll 7's. My buddy got +1 A, +1 S, and +1T last game we played. Nothing will kill that unit.

Agoz
05-11-2010, 02:57
I'm not a fan of elves of any variety :P

Putty
05-11-2010, 03:23
i absolutely hate Skaven armies that run double hpas and a grey seer with power scroll. throw in the storm banner and i can't even be bothered to even go as far to try to roll for the game scenario.

Everything else i can handle in 8th (even WoC marauder GW spam) but Skaven for me is the worst this ed. (but hey, whatever to help sell IoB boxes yeah?)

Darkspear
05-11-2010, 03:59
For me, it will be high elves and lizardmen. The only reason? Magic.

Since my friends refuse to tone it down, I have to stop playing the game.

Hashulaman
05-11-2010, 04:23
A close second for me would be DoC, this is more the player. He plays like he is in 'Ard Boyz every time and is hardcore competetive. I sometimes wonder if he realizes its a friendly game we are playing.

The Grim
05-11-2010, 04:35
Warriors of chaos. Nothing comes close to their warriors. Korne w/ halberds wreck bcuz a front rank of 6 with a champion puts out 19 S5 attacks. Tzeench with hw/s have a 3+ AS and a 5+ ward.

Chosen Tzeench with the frenzy banner makes them basically Korne with a 6+ ward. Then add in 2 warshrines and the itm that allows you to adjust the roll on the eye of the god chart. Plus you can re roll 7's. My buddy got +1 A, +1 S, and +1T last game we played. Nothing will kill that unit.

Indeed, this army is just push forward in a straight line, throw Hellcannon boulders and powerfull spells and the remaining units will butcher any other in melee.

Lord Squidar
05-11-2010, 05:03
I dont think skaven are all that bad. We have zero proper defensive items, other than armour of destiny, and the warlord is a push over. If you kill him, army ld crumles. And all you have to do is shoot one weapon team near by big units, and its panic-a-palooza. They are tough but they have an achilles heel for sure.

The army I hate facing is vampire counts. Purely for the fact that you move your guys around, get in the rears and flanks, and kill a whole bunch of dead ones, only for a necro to undo all that you did in his turn and then you are still screwed. That and the WS hat, man that thing is unfriendly.

eyescrossed
05-11-2010, 05:20
Indeed, this army is just push forward in a straight line, throw Hellcannon boulders and powerfull spells and the remaining units will butcher any other in melee.

Not with my army. I field Knights and Horsemen to add flavour, sometimes Warshrines and Giants. Never Hellcannons.

Then again, I like those units.

sulla
05-11-2010, 07:50
WOC doesnt matter what i do i simply cant get past their stat line and armour drives me man :D They're my bugbear at the moment too. With my DE, they outfight me, outshoot me (damn double hellcannons) and if I go magic heavy, the infernal puppet amkes it likely I'll do more damage to my own troops than myself.

I don't mind so much with my beasts. My troops arene't quite so squishy and I have access to buff magic, unlike my DE.

Chiungalla
05-11-2010, 08:08
and they know to lock up with my Deathstar unit and keep it stuck there for the enitre game. Plague Furnaces suck too.

Why you keep playing deathstar units then?

I hate to play against dwarfs. I simply refuse to play against them in a friendly enviroment, and I don't like to play them on a tourney either, but there I will do it of cause.

They don't have magic, and the don't have much to do in the movement phase either. Shooting is just stupid dice rolling with not much tactics involved... and the same is true about close combats, if you don't have the movement phase to choose the right combats for you.

snyggejygge
05-11-2010, 08:12
Gunlines
Magiclines

I want close combat & maneuvering, not Yatzy.

Tallopolis
05-11-2010, 08:25
I disagree that teclis is "point and click win", i recently went to the Throne of skulls, and although 16 of the 160 armies were high elves, and 13 of those had teclis, only 3 got more than 3 wins out of 5, and only 2 of those had teclis (meaning that 11/13 teclis players got 3 or less wins) that doesn't seem point and click...... there are several recognised ways of taking him out, (T2 with 3 wounds, no saves) and its a hefty points investment, so its a pain if you lose him..... and in response to the original question..... i hate dwarf anvil gunlines :D

The Grim
05-11-2010, 08:40
I disagree that teclis is "point and click win", i recently went to the Throne of skulls, and although 16 of the 160 armies were high elves, and 13 of those had teclis, only 3 got more than 3 wins out of 5, and only 2 of those had teclis (meaning that 11/13 teclis players got 3 or less wins) that doesn't seem point and click...... there are several recognised ways of taking him out, (T2 with 3 wounds, no saves) and its a hefty points investment, so its a pain if you lose him..... and in response to the original question..... i hate dwarf anvil gunlines :D

And you were playing Teclis?

eyescrossed
05-11-2010, 09:03
They probably didn't win because everyone else anticipated Teclis and built their lists accordingly :shifty:

bert n ernie
05-11-2010, 09:22
@ Tallopolis
Your post combined with your sig doesn't make a lot of sense.
So you were one of the 3 people to win more than 3 games?
I'm curious as to whether you took Teclis or not.

The problem with Teclis is not some auto-win button. Rather he is a character who, in this edition, can not be stopped in the magic phase. You have to be able to target him individually (Death Magic) or kill him in close combat, which requires a huge number of attackers to survive the ASF, or to send in a powerful ASF model, who won't be challenged out.
Having to deal with a character who can ignore most of the downsides of the magic phase, while he is superb at the benefits of it, is very frustrating for a lot of armies to deal with, unless they have prepared for it specifically.

And yes, this it possible my least favourite army to play against. Although for some reason I could never get a win against Ogres in 7th ed. Hopefully that will change now.

Hashulaman
05-11-2010, 09:35
I am making a High Elf army and I am looking for ways to run it WITHOUT Teclis as I see it as more fun to not have to resort to using Teclis unless it was a tournament or other competative enviroment.

H33D
05-11-2010, 09:44
the skaven guy i play against regularly brings the doomrocket, grey seer with power scroll, hpa, and those damn war machine killing skirmishing scouts...

Alex Under
05-11-2010, 09:49
I hate undead when I play them with my WE army... It's so frustrating to nearly destroy a whole unit and see them raise it to their original numbers again... Last game I played ended 100 to 0, you can imagine how much fun that was...

UberBeast
05-11-2010, 12:05
WoC hellcannon spam with lore of death and their standard that drops leadership of all units that can see it.

Once you've had half of your army run off the table thanks to the huge negative modifiers from the hellcannon panic, then have the last units mopped up by warriors, you'll soon learn to hate them.

WarmbloodedLizard
05-11-2010, 12:08
Gunline Dwarves.



agreed. gunline dwarves are easily the most-unfun lists to play against. (I consider everything above 33% in shooting as a gunline.)

The bearded one
05-11-2010, 12:31
agreed. gunline dwarves are easily the most-unfun lists to play against. (I consider everything above 33% in shooting as a gunline.)

What army do you play? I'm sure we can find an easy fix.

Consider dwarf shooting to be their way to compensate for lack of movement and magic. "Ow, you're going to dance around my CC units? Eat lead untill you engage!"

O, and before I am accused of a gunline, I have 600 pts exactly out of 2500 spent in shooting ( organ gun, cannon, bolt thrower, 10 thunderers, 10 quarrelers ) and everything else in combat. 142 pts in anti-magic.


I hate... daemons. Just plain daemons. Their core is still underpriced for their worth, for example a longbeard with shield vs a bloodletter. Same cost, hit eachother on 4's, wound eachother on 3's, letter saves on 5+, longbeard on 6+/6++, the longbeard has immunity to panic and grants rerolls to panic to units within 6" ( which the BSB does as well, so not usefull ). the letter is unbreakable with a mild form of the unstable rule, causes fear, has killing blow and can get hatred with the ( nearly ) obligatory herald. Definately underpriced.

Ney
05-11-2010, 12:40
I don't hate it per se, but facing the skaven with my ogres is always a bit of a letdown, it's just plain annoying that everything causes multiple wounds and you can't do jackshit about it.

Gav2k
05-11-2010, 13:21
While I admit I am woefully inexperienced against fighting most of the armies (I've only faced WoC & Skaven once each, Dwarves and Vamps a few times, and Gobbos fairly regularly) I think my most annoyance came up against the dwarves and their guns. It was just boring, I didnt have any enjoyment and my opponent didnt seem to have any thrills out of it either.

Played Skaven for the first time the other night. Was getting my ass handed to me, and that Curse of the Horned Rat thing was a pain - he replaced 2 units of 10 guys with his own Clanrats! Sneaky buggers!

I won in the end though - luckily I was nearest the objective at the end of the game :)

Ronin[XiC]
05-11-2010, 13:27
Wood elves - but in friendly games. Hate them. Also, this is in 7th edition.

Wood Elves are fine in 8th.
But back in 6th edition.. wow... played them with my O&G and got exactly ZERO victory points....
Too much terrain + infanterie on my side vs. wood elve denial army = no fun at all.
I ran 6 turns without getting into combat (skirmishers could still march back then when in 8" of an enemy).

In 8th I dislike glass cannon armies like empire with 6 warmachines and 50 other ranged weapons. Not because it is undefeatable, but because it is boring to play against.

Tallopolis
05-11-2010, 14:11
I was using Teclis, and i did win all my games, but the point is, no-one else using teclis did, and only one person using him won 4 games..... he is very beatable, many of the lores of magic have spells that can kill him (death, life, metal....) and many characters have 'sniper' weapons, also any unit that can survive 1 round of attacks from my strength 3 elves (any decent sized unit) can almost certainly kill him in combat, and many armies can get into combat with him.... people were having more problems with the abundance of slann that were swamping the top tables.

on a different note, there was one army that looked particularily horrible for certain armies, and if i had come up against it would probably have killed teclis turn 1, it consisted of 2 hordes of 40 Rangers (1 longbeards) with plenty of tooled up characters in them, which started 6 inches away from you! and a cannon to be the third compulsory unit....... that would have been horrific to face :(

WarmbloodedLizard
05-11-2010, 14:40
What army do you play? I'm sure we can find an easy fix.


lizardmen and ogres. it's not like i never win. it's just that the games against gunline and especially dwarven gunlines are rarly any fun.

I really prefer your kinds of dwarves with only 25% shooting. the fun factor is about 10 times as high as it is when playing a 2x organ gun 2x runedup stonthrower and 2x runded up cannon.

Pacorko
05-11-2010, 14:43
Well so far there aren't any armies I hate facing, just players. I just want to have a good time playing.

Ditto and +1 to that.

Whiners/cheaters/tools at stores, those are the ones that made me go exclusively for friendly games with a close-knit group of people, at my house or at a friend's, and then by invitation only.

I really can't help but laugh when a player "hates" an army. I mean the first three or so post all boil down to "if I can't control the game completely, that army is something I hate".

I mean, to the gentleman with the O&G aversion: seriously? Waaagh! is an autowin button?

That's news to all of us, orc players. :p

ColShaw
05-11-2010, 14:44
Gunline Dwarfs are annoying. It's not that you can't beat them; they just make the game no fun. Especially with pre-errata'd Thorek. :( Either you make it to their line with enough stuff left and kill them, or you don't. My High Elves tend to die to them, due to expensive, easy-to-kill infantry models, while my Goblin horde just absorbs the casualties and overruns them. Whee.

The other army I don't like to fight against is Lizardmen, but not because of any particular thing. It's mainly just that I play against them ALL THE DAMN TIME. I want variety.

spiderman5z
05-11-2010, 14:53
I haven't played against much except beasts and wood elves but I really hate facing lizardmen especially super slaan lists with temple guard deathstars...

amysrevenge
05-11-2010, 15:11
VCs for me. Not because they're hard, but because (with my Dwarfs) I have the choice of either trying to fight the killy Lord in Grave Guard with units that aren't quite up to the challenge (and usually lose the game), or keep the troops as far away as I can and target all of my warmachines solely at the Lord, waiting for a failed LoS and feeling like a jerk (and probably win the game).

IGoblinego
05-11-2010, 15:15
It's not the army you hate, it's the player :D

oh wait,

Blood Angels!!!

logan054
05-11-2010, 17:14
Ditto and +1 to that.


Make that a +2, a lot of things brought in this topic are down to the person being unable to resist taking the most powerful choices every single time. I was like this guy I played in GW, 500pts, Stegadon, blowpipes, wizard, what fun I had with WoC :(

I played some guy last night, I had to walk away from the table several times because of how aggressive the guy was, I mean I understand getting annoyed because your losing and all but this was a whole new level. I was starting to get annoyed because he kept knocking my models, I even tried to make a joke of it and the guy just roaring taking things the wrong way. Never again, I think the best part was his insinuated I was a drug addicted, good stuff.

I think I would rather spend 2 days at GW GT/Throne of playing a Techlis with a pure khorne army and no magic defense than repeat that experience.

Pacorko
05-11-2010, 17:33
Logan054, you certainly are a man with temperance. Any **** knocks my models on purpose, he's bound to have a hard stare and one warning: "Do it again and I might knock one of your teeth, sir."

In the past, if an idiot couldn't take bad things in a game with humour or self-restraint, and tended to be unnecesarily loud, unjustifiably insulting or generally made an **** of himself, I'd just say: "Well, you lost yourself a chance for fine game... now, chalk another "win" for you and clear the table for I plan to have a another game with someone else, please."

But yes... there some ugly types in every hobby. My question is why does this one seems to be the one that attacts the most? :eyebrows:

logan054
05-11-2010, 17:49
I was very really being pushed to my limits, I think a few years ago and I would have been walking round the other side of the table ;)

I really wish I had a answer as to why, maybe its the store presence (but I do wonder if those types would normally leave the house), maybe its games like DoW2? perhaps its simply the changes to the rules and constant price hikes have pushed away a lot of normal people who play warhammer/40k. Maybe its just the age of people its attracts or is it that people are generally more selfish than they used to be?

oldschoolmonk
05-11-2010, 20:08
I used to hate playing dwarves in 6E. Didn't matter how good or bad the list was, it just made the game so dreadfully boring to have them setup a castle and sit. They deploy, skip movement, skip magic, shoot, and probably skip combat for many phases. Then you hit them and units swing at each other with nothing happening unless a bad roll crops up. Terribly boring.

Now with my Dark Elves in 8E (I skipped 7E).... Hum, I think I'd happy play anyone. Magic can get a bit dumb, and I always cringe in the magic phase vs the MoT Lord with +5 to cast, gateway, and those chaos goodies. I guess if someone took more than 2 template warmachines I'd be unhappy. 2 mortars is killy and good, but if there were 3 and 2 rocket batteries I think the game would also be reduced to luck and not so much fun.

pkain762
05-11-2010, 22:53
i don't hate certain armies, i hate certain players.....

I hate players that set up on the very edge of the board and shoot/magic you the entire game.

I played a tomb king player that had catapults and archers up the waazooo. He set them up on the board edge and shot me in the magic phase and shooting phase.

I kept making ward saves with my general on the large targe mount. He commented by saying "why don't you fail an armor save", i responded "why don't you move?"

i nuked his general with a spell, and beat him and he quit on turn 1. It was a really lame way to play fantasy. It is similar to an imperial guard parking lot army (an army with lots of vehicles) they just move back and shoot, move back and shoot..... it is boring.....

Don't get it twisted, i don't mind gunlines, i just hate people that refuse to maneuver any...

that is my rant

bluemage
05-11-2010, 23:11
To be fair, its really the only way to play tomb kings now is sit back and magic gunline and isn't not very effective or fun to play with or against. Its why I shelved my TK until they get a new book.

Ghazbad_Facestompa
06-11-2010, 01:13
Strangely, I don't like fighting Bretonnia much. This stems from an inability to get past their accursed armor followed by ward and how destructive they are when they charge. I don't mind losing too much, but if I can't get more than a few wounds in, it's just not much fun.

logan054
06-11-2010, 03:21
I hate players that set up on the very edge of the board and shoot/magic you the entire game.

I hate playing people like that with my WoC, I take a nice balanced list, no double hellcannons, no double warshrines, silly things like that and then sometimes I am rewarded with a guy just sitting at the back, casting spells and shoot guns/cannons at me. I think its comparable to watching paint dry! I totally understand the desire the win a game but why make the experience as boring as possible for you opponent!

The Grim
06-11-2010, 03:57
I hate playing people like that with my WoC, I take a nice balanced list, no double hellcannons, no double warshrines, silly things like that and then sometimes I am rewarded with a guy just sitting at the back, casting spells and shoot guns/cannons at me. I think its comparable to watching paint dry! I totally understand the desire the win a game but why make the experience as boring as possible for you opponent!

Hm the thing is that even like that WoC can win... And even if you confront them earlier they win too! Not saying I caution the behaviour but still.

Glasscannon
06-11-2010, 04:13
I was at the Sydney Battle Bunker for games night, a skaven player wants a 2500 point game, but there are 2 empire players available myself and another bloke.
The skaven player asks what we've got, I reply well I have 1 cannon 2 mortars the rest is a mix of fast cav, heavy cav and infantry. The other person says 3 cannons 3 mortars, 2 hellstorms and 4 infantry hordes. No prize for guessing who got the game :)

Tzeentch Lover
06-11-2010, 04:34
Honestly, I don't hate certain armies anywhere near as much as certain players in the area.

Of course, that being said, if another Lizardmen player puts down another Loremaster Life Slann who laughs at the random winds of magic in a bunker of Temple Guard; I might just do something violent.

Kayosiv
06-11-2010, 05:43
Of course, that being said, if another Lizardmen player puts down another Loremaster Life Slann who laughs at the random winds of magic in a bunker of Temple Guard; I might just do something violent.

Lizardmen players have little choice if they want to win, and it pains me.
I have always had a varied list and never used a Slann. In 8th edition I find I am losing a lot more, while the other 2 people at the shop that use Lizardmen armies with Slann are winning 9 out of every 10 games.

There's really no army I hate to fight in 8th edition, simply army styles. Too much artillery or too much magic makes for an un-fun game pretty much universally in the 8th edition system.

Tzeentch Lover
06-11-2010, 06:01
Lizardmen players have little choice if they want to win, and it pains me.
I have always had a varied list and never used a Slann. In 8th edition I find I am losing a lot more, while the other 2 people at the shop that use Lizardmen armies with Slann are winning 9 out of every 10 games.

Putting aside the Focused Rumination leaving your opponent's dispell dice in the dust; even just using a different Lore than Life would pretty dang refreshing here. Fighting unkillable suraus warriors/temple guard that can be regrown is just too much on top of the nuke that is dweller's below and the lore attribute.

The only reason why I won my last game against that list was that the LM player misread my intentions and buffed the hell out of his temple guard bunker while I went and annihilated the rest of his army.

Kayosiv
06-11-2010, 06:15
One of the people at my shop uses lore of light.

Initiative 10 saurus with 8 speed and 3 re-rollable WS 10 attacks tend to butcher entire armies.

Carnisaur nerfed, magic lores buffed, not a situation I enjoy.

Urgat
06-11-2010, 09:47
In 7th ed, I hated facing VC. A bane for goblin armies, really. A single banshee could lay waste to your army. Not a single units that doesn't have, at best, fear. Numbers that could sky rocket if you got unlucky with dispells. Hateful, really :p
Nowadays, dunno, haven't play enough 8th ed to tell.

Flash Felix
06-11-2010, 12:07
I hate playing people like that with my WoC, I take a nice balanced list, no double hellcannons, no double warshrines, silly things like that and then sometimes I am rewarded with a guy just sitting at the back, casting spells and shoot guns/cannons at me. I think its comparable to watching paint dry! I totally understand the desire the win a game but why make the experience as boring as possible for you opponent!

Mate, nothing personal, but most opponents, including my Dwarves, have no choice. WoC are monsters in combat, it's their thing. The only way my combat units can beat yours, is if I whittle them down. 30 Dwarf Warriors with full command and Great Weapons (355 points) cannot beat the same number of points worth of frenzied Chaos Warriors with Halberds; there's about 18 of them. But if I shoot them down to 10, I've got a good chance of doing so. 355 points of Khorne marauders will do the same too. And it's like that across the board.

So I'm sorry, but if you were to play me, I'd have to castle at the back, shoot you down, and only engage when I have a hope of winning. Warriors of Chaos are too damn hard otherwise.

logan054
06-11-2010, 12:41
Hm the thing is that even like that WoC can win... And even if you confront them earlier they win too! Not saying I caution the behaviour but still.

Its not about winning, its about enjoyment from a game, this is down to your opponent, if they choose to make a gunline that chosen to make the game boring, its not that the army is designed to be used only in this way.


Mate, nothing personal, but most opponents, including my Dwarves, have no choice. WoC are monsters in combat, it's their thing. The only way my combat units can beat yours, is if I whittle them down. 30 Dwarf Warriors with full command and Great Weapons (355 points) cannot beat the same number of points worth of frenzied Chaos Warriors with Halberds

Their is a difference between weakening a enemy so you can engage them and sitting on the board edge for 6 turns, if I was to play you and you just sat on the board edge I would pack away my models.

bluemage
06-11-2010, 14:57
One thing to remember about armies with shooting, is that unless you too have shooting, they have no reason to engage you. lets say I'm playing high elves and I brought 1 rbt, 20 archers and you brought no shooting of your own (I'm completely ignoring magic for this). It would be to my advantage to sit back on the table edge and shoot you until you crossed the field. You have nothing to force me to engage you. Yes it would be rather boring for a couple of turns but you would cross the board in 3 turns and be declaring charges on your 4 turn. Not saying you would be wrong to want to play someone else, I'm just saying that tactically it is worthwhile for the player with some shooting to sit back. The solution is to just take a hellcannon or some magic so you have some ranged power also.

logan054
06-11-2010, 15:10
Would you actually find a game enjoyable just doing that? I am fully aware that such armies are very beatable, it has nothing to do with the notion of being unable to defeat said player. It is simply about the enjoyment factor, by doing such a thing you have decided to make the game as boring as possible just so you win, whats the point? Its not like you win a prize its hardly like you have much brag about even if you do win.

bluemage
06-11-2010, 15:17
I wouldn't really enjoy those first several turns of sitting back. But if I rushed at you before softening up your blocks some, I would get crushed in combat. And that wouldn't be a lot of fun either. So I'll sit back for a few turns softening stuff up, making jokes and talking about other stuff and until you cross the board and the game begins for real. I'd prefer to be moving units around the whole game.

But I'm also a wood elf player. I'm using to dancing around and denying you combat unless its drastically in my favor. Doing otherwise would lose you games very quickly. Yeah its not always fun for other people, which is why I got a couple of other armies.

Tah Kazak Rik
06-11-2010, 15:27
I hate facing.....Daemons and Warriors of Chaos

Why? Well its not really the army but the players who play them.

In my experience it is jerks and arrogant ace holes who tend to play these armies, and they treat anyone else who plays them as if they are push overs. They tend to not care about deployment and tactics and depend upon their awesome units to win battles.

I take extreme joy in defeating these armies with my dwarves and even more joy when I defeat them with my Empire.

But that is not me saying that all DoC and WoC players are *******, just the ones in my area.

Generally and on a broad spectrum I hate playing High Elves because they are just so overpowered. My best friend loves H-E and I am forced to play him all the time. Those games are just so evenly matched it makes playing useless.

logan054
06-11-2010, 15:28
@ Blue mage - If that was the kinda of game I would skip it take you down the pub :P

Tah Kazak Rik
06-11-2010, 15:54
If that was the kinda of game I would skip it take you down the pub :P

You mean in referance to my friend and his H-E, correct?

Because often we will add special rules to make the games more interesting, and balanced.

See, he loves White Lions, and has 2 units of 25, and has had them since he started playing in 2003, and now we all know how extreme they are in this edition. But I let him use them because they are his fav unit, and his army is themed around them.

So we often make the WLs defend buildings and other stationary tasks, or make some special rule to balance them out.

But even then we grind each others armies down and often only get draw results.

logan054
06-11-2010, 15:58
I hate facing.....Daemons and Warriors of Chaos

Why? Well its not really the army but the players who play them.

In my experience it is jerks and arrogant ace holes who tend to play these armies, and they treat anyone else who plays them as if they are push overs. They tend to not care about deployment and tactics and depend upon their awesome units to win battles.

Very charming


You mean in referance to my friend and his H-E, correct?

Because often we will add special rules to make the games more interesting, and balanced.

See, he loves White Lions, and has 2 units of 25, and has had them since he started playing in 2003, and now we all know how extreme they are in this edition. But I let him use them because they are his fav unit, and his army is themed around them.

A bit like me and my Chaos warriors, I have been using heavy chaos warrior lists since maybe 1995 ( I cant remember exactly when I started my Chaos army).

Tah Kazak Rik
06-11-2010, 16:01
Very charming

Well I did say:



But that is not me saying that all DoC and WoC players are *******, just the ones in my area.


Thats just from my experience. But I would imagine it goes with the territory of chaos worship ;)

logan054
06-11-2010, 16:03
maybe its just the age of players in your area :p

Tah Kazak Rik
06-11-2010, 16:16
maybe its just the age of players in your area :p

Well if you mean between 25-35 then yes, that is a factor. The vast majority of these folks play WoC, DoC, and Beast ;)

Little kids between 10-15 tend to play H-E, O&G, or Dwarves. Guess parents thought that the other armies were too dark (anything chaos or skaven) and that others were too complex (empire or lizzies).

16-24 year old people play a variety of armies, but most play Empire, Brets, or D-E.

Tarian
06-11-2010, 16:35
I dont think skaven are all that bad. We have zero proper defensive items, other than armour of destiny, and the warlord is a push over. If you kill him, army ld crumles. And all you have to do is shoot one weapon team near by big units, and its panic-a-palooza. They are tough but they have an achilles heel for sure.

Incidentally, I don't think Weapon Teams cause panic, ever.

As for what I hate fighting, would have to be D.Elves, but I've fought them so much, I guess I'm just a bit tired of it. That, and getting complaints for a regular Archmage when my opponent puts Morathi down, saying my magic's overpowered... :eyebrows:

KronusDaSneaky
06-11-2010, 17:06
Gun Line Dwarfs, The local dwarf player plays with 90% (not even I can quite understand why his armies are almost pure shooty) shooty units be they thunders, cannons, organ guns or anvils. He almost never takes dwarf infantry or anything capable of threatening me if I reach his lines. This effective takes a game of tactics and turns it into a question of can the dwarfs kill you before you reach their lines. If the answer is yes, then the battle is over in 3 turns and my army has basically achieved very little. If the answer is no then the shooty dwarfs with their move or shoot weapons tend to get slaughtered. The worse bit from an opposition point of view is do I take a balanced list I know will struggle and probably just watch it get blown away or do I take a list that's tailored to deal with it which proceeds to dispatch it with little challenge. Either way its little fun to fight

The most feared army in my local club is probably the skaven though and tactically considered the worst draw. There aren't too many competitive armies on the scene with brets, beasts, orges etc being the norm and all of them struggle with the breadth and flexibility of skaven. This is in spite of the skaven never using hpa unless requested and taking the max of one rare or more then 2 units of slaves and avoiding the power scroll like a STD.

Napoleon Blownapart
06-11-2010, 17:49
I do believe the initial comment on teclis did not indicate how well he performed at all, just that it was a "point and click" list.

In other words, it doesn't suck to play against because it is or is not effective, it sucks to play a game against because it is boring as hell.

Well, that is my experience anyway. Elongate the game by hiding and magic missile as much as possible. I eat that sort of list for breakfast, but winning or losing, that game is not going to be fun, it's going to be a joke.

Wakerofgods
06-11-2010, 19:36
So I'm sorry, but if you were to play me, I'd have to castle at the back, shoot you down, and only engage when I have a hope of winning. Warriors of Chaos are too damn hard otherwise.

Something that might help you a lot (maybe not with dwarves though...) against chaos, since you complain about frenzied ones specifically, is to remember that they have to persue!

Those 50 marauders or 18 chaos warriors? Flank them with a small unit and provided they don't kill the whole unit, they have to persue! Moving 2d6 sideways and changing their facing!

My opponent doing that to me a few times made me drop khrone from all my units!

Also, there is a big difference between taking a rank off so you can beat the chaos warriors in a drawn out battle and just sitting right at the back of the board for 6 turns.

This game is for fun, that is the goal. Winning is not the direct goal despite often being treated as such. Having fun and trying to win usually go together quite closely - but not all the time. If you want to turtle at the back of the board, you should realize that you will not be a very fun opponent. This might not bother you, which is your business, but there is no point denying that it is the case.

One last thing, I think your crazy if you really think the only way to win with dwarves vs WOC is to turtle. Is it the easiest way to win? Maybe. Might it be the best thing to do with your list? Maybe. Is it the only way to reasonably use the list to win? No way.

Flash Felix
07-11-2010, 00:29
Their is a difference between weakening a enemy so you can engage them and sitting on the board edge for 6 turns, if I was to play you and you just sat on the board edge I would pack away my models.

Fair enough, and I wouldn't blame you. For what it's worth, my army normally has three war-machines (cannon, organ gun, runed grudge thrower) and four units of 20-28 infantry. So I have to go into combat to win, it's just that Dwarves need shooting to help tip combats in our favour before we commit, in the same way other armies use magic and movement to do this.

Oh for a rune or two of hexing.....!

logan054
07-11-2010, 01:27
Like I said, nothing wrong with dwarfs weakening a enemy before they engage in combat, the problem is when you hit turn 4 and you are only just starting to move.

Hashulaman
07-11-2010, 08:02
Yes, I am guilty of taking 2 Hellcannons and a warshrine, but I dont play with a Win at all costs mentality, and I do not take the -1 ldr banner or Lore of Death to compound the sorrow of a panic check at -5 from a Hellcannon, Doom Totem, and Doom and Darkness. My Hellcannons have yet to make or break a game, the pyschological factor though is superb. I dont even run that much magic spam, 1 level 4 Tzeentch on a Disc is really all I need. Maybe book of secrets on a Exhaulted to spice things up, but I think my army is far from cheese. Yes I DO use Throgg but I don't spam trolls, 1 unit of 5 for him to join is enough

Granted this is all in the sphere of friendly games, if the gloves were to come off I might be tempted to ldr bomb.

Urgat
07-11-2010, 08:19
So I'm sorry, but if you were to play me, I'd have to castle at the back, shoot you down, and only engage when I have a hope of winning. Warriors of Chaos are too damn hard otherwise.

My goblins don't need to do that to win against chaos warriors. Goblins. With two spear chukkas and a handful of shortbows...
"cackles"
Tss, stunties, bunch of softbellies, all o'dem.

eyescrossed
07-11-2010, 08:53
Would it help that Goblins are vastly cheaper?

Jind_Singh
07-11-2010, 09:01
I HATE facing Dark Elves - I don't know why but I can't seem to beat them! I have this phobia of facing these Dark pointy heads!

Keith_Lupton
07-11-2010, 09:03
I dont hate playing any particular army, i just hate hellcannons......

King_Pash
07-11-2010, 09:49
I'm surprised a witty DE player hasn't posted that they HATE facing all armies. Apart from those with the Banner of Balance against which they only mildly indifferent :P

Urgat
07-11-2010, 09:56
Would it help that Goblins are vastly cheaper?

Are they? They're also vastly weaker and prone to running. You're going to tell me that goblins are so scary that dwarfs have no choice but castle in a corner and whistle them down before they reach the stunties lines? Well this is as it should be anyway :p

Flash Felix
08-11-2010, 08:23
Are they? They're also vastly weaker and prone to running. You're going to tell me that goblins are so scary that dwarfs have no choice but castle in a corner and whistle them down before they reach the stunties lines? Well this is as it should be anyway :p

Of course not, against Gobbos I'd sally forth and mash some heads. But Chaos Warriors, and some of the High Elf elites, are so superior in combat vs Dwarves that knocking some ranks off is the only way I can see to beat them when combat does commence.

Flash Felix
08-11-2010, 08:32
Something that might help you a lot (maybe not with dwarves though...) against chaos, since you complain about frenzied ones specifically, is to remember that they have to persue!

Those 50 marauders or 18 chaos warriors? Flank them with a small unit and provided they don't kill the whole unit, they have to persue! Moving 2d6 sideways and changing their facing!

My opponent doing that to me a few times made me drop khrone from all my units!

The other notable thing about Dwarves, apart from our lack of magic, is our lack of cheap, mobile and expendable units. The cheapest thing we have is a Dragonslayer, but at M3 he's going nowhere fast. A Gyrocopter is mobile, but it's also a rare, and at 140 points, isn't that expendable. I'd love to have something like warhounds or Skinks, but Dwarves don't, it's just part of the army design.


Also, there is a big difference between taking a rank off so you can beat the chaos warriors in a drawn out battle and just sitting right at the back of the board for 6 turns.

Agreed. Which is why I, and many other Dwarf players, use our war machines to shape the battlefield by knocking enemy units down to size, and then launching into combat. War machines as a support arm, not the decisive one. We're not all gunliners.....


This game is for fun, that is the goal. Winning is not the direct goal despite often being treated as such. Having fun and trying to win usually go together quite closely - but not all the time. If you want to turtle at the back of the board, you should realize that you will not be a very fun opponent. This might not bother you, which is your business, but there is no point denying that it is the case.

One last thing, I think your crazy if you really think the only way to win with dwarves vs WOC is to turtle. Is it the easiest way to win? Maybe. Might it be the best thing to do with your list? Maybe. Is it the only way to reasonably use the list to win? No way.

Fun is the most important part of the game, but I also enjoy winning. Launching 350+ point units into unwinnable combats might be glorious, but it's not much fun and it's pretty tedious.

Against WOC, turtling isn't quite the term, as I don't need to worry about harpies or Gutter Runners (though Disc Riders need countering). But a deep deployment is essential, to give me time to tip the combats in my favour with shooting. I play WOC a lot, and quite simply, facing them toe to toe, point for point, is generally a losing idea. Sad, but true.... Roll on the new Dwarf Army Book. If we only get two phases to play in (combat and shooting) then we need to be pretty awesome at them.

Von Lust44
09-11-2010, 08:25
Skaven, they just have everything and the whole ld bonus is just annoying..

Daemons as well cause they are so cheesy and all the power players seem to have them, for once i would like to play against a Daemon army that wasn't played by a Douche..

And in my past life when i played 40k space wolves

Kevlar
09-11-2010, 10:38
Skaven, they just have everything and the whole ld bonus is just annoying..

Daemons as well cause they are so cheesy and all the power players seem to have them, for once i would like to play against a Daemon army that wasn't played by a Douche..

And in my past life when i played 40k space wolves

If by everything you mean to exclude anything with an armor save, cavalry, flyers (anything with >M6 really), any type of elite combat troops, but yeah, other than that I guess they have everything.

eyescrossed
09-11-2010, 10:47
Funnily enough, they don't need any of those to be one of (if not the) top tier armies.

Andy p
09-11-2010, 12:30
I dont hate facing any army, just players. The worst was a dwarf player I met recently, just blatently cheated the entire game, I was just learning the 8th rules by then.

Here is an example: "My dwarf lord's rerollable 1+ armour save is also a ward save because I say so and no you cant see my army book....."

It went downhill from there. However since I play just to have fun and imagine a scenario in my head, I wasnt really angry, more disappointed that someone would do this in a friendly, fun match.

Odin
09-11-2010, 12:35
I really don't enjoy playing against Dark Elves - they just completely control the pace of the game and annihilate me with their magic and shooting while preventing me getting close to them. Horrible, and not fun at all.

GuyLeCheval
09-11-2010, 12:38
I don't like gunline dwarfs. Even if I win it was no fun.

Maybe it is because I never use plague furnaces, nor bells. I even use a vermin lord :S

Jack Shrapnel
09-11-2010, 19:10
Tooled up Slaan + lore of life + 50+ saurus block....

luckily my skaven weren't doing near good enough that tourney to face that!

VoodooJanus
09-11-2010, 20:03
I don't absolutely hate playing any army, but it's the least fun for me to play against Warrior-heavy WoC and Lizardmen because I am still trying to succeed with my Wood Elves. I've found ways to win against the horde-y armies, and I don't do much worse than I used to against DE or HE, but those armies with high armor value core choices just kill me every time.

That being said, I can play against my Ogre friends these days and have an interesting game, which is much more than could be said for their dynamic in 7th.

wizbix
10-11-2010, 08:16
I hate facing unpainted armies - plain and simple.

Mortogul
10-11-2010, 12:27
I'm getting fed up of playing chaos to be honest.
5+ to wound, 4+ armour save at worst after my armour piercing bolts have hit them....
In5 is irritating as well as their stuff does tend to butcher mine.

The most annoying bit is my mages haven't really mastered damaging the enemy with Searing Doom at all. Plenty of irresistable force losing me most of my dice and blowing away nearby elves who are keeping the mage safe from being shot at but not much in the way of melting the enemy....
Typical damage tends to be 1 hit and no wounds...on knights! Even when they haven't got ward saves...

Try Lore of Metal an roast the Boys inside their Armor

Mabus
10-11-2010, 13:13
There's no army I hate facing but I'm getting tired of playing against a friend's wood elves. My army is simply not equipped to fight it. All my points go into my 2 warrior bunkers which contain all my heroes, my genral, my BSB and sorcerers. I call these my bricks!

He fields almost only glade riders and glade guard. This basically ends with him dancing around the board getting frustrated with my high armour saves and me chasing him around with my bricks, never ever being able to catch him.

I've tried to remedy my list by fielding more Marauder horsemen but they usually get shot off the board by 2nd turn.

eyescrossed
11-11-2010, 05:05
Field Knights, then?

Or, simply not bricks?


Y'see, the way he's playing is a legit WE way to play. Not that you're not playing a "legit" army, but you're basically bunkering with 2 huge blocks. Of course they're never going to catch WE, and what are they going to do against it besides shoot?

Midloo
11-11-2010, 12:59
I dislike playing against any kind of denial army. WE, VC, and anyone running a gunline frustrate me. Mostly because I enjoy myself by... you know... participating in every phase of the game and these forces can shut major portions of it down. That's not fun.

eyescrossed
11-11-2010, 20:12
What army do you play, Midloo?

Defender of Ulthuan
11-11-2010, 20:27
I'd have to say the Helves. ASF across the board just makes the game boring, imo.

Also, I play WoC and am scared to death of the lore of metal. Granted, I only really play low-model-count, elite armor lists with no marks. Scary Alchemy.

TrojanWolf
11-11-2010, 21:12
I hate Lizardmen. Back in 7th, skirmishing skinks and terradons were at the top of my list for units I truly hate. Watching my Rat Ogres being lead around the board because they can't catch the little blue buggers was the worst thing ever.

I haven't played a tournament in 8th yet, but I hazard to assume that nothing will change as far as skinks are concerned. However, facing WoC is another prospect that I dread nowadays, since those Warriors put out a disturbingly high amount of attacks.

Vexing
12-11-2010, 02:33
HE (ASF is fine, re-rolls is total bs) and because it's the same list every single time. 20 PG bunker for a lvl 4 archmage, 2 big blocks of SM, 1 40 block of Spearmen with Noble, sprinkle in a BT, 1 Chariot or a Hero for flavor.

Skaven would be on my list, however my usual furry opponent is incredibly easy going and all about playing for fun so I don't see any hardcore HPA or pure Jezzail + Cheesewheel lists.

Tarian
12-11-2010, 04:00
Interesting, Vexing, considering my 3k HE list is a Dragon Lord, Mounted BSB, 2 Level 2 Mages, 2 blocks of Sea Guard, 15 Dragon Princes, 2 blocks of Silver Helms, Shadow Warriors, Ellyrian Reavers, and two RBTs...

Vexing
12-11-2010, 09:08
It'd be nice to face a different HE list for once. I'm actually pretty bored playing against HE, it never changes so I'm stuck taking the same list every time as well.

PeG
12-11-2010, 11:27
It'd be nice to face a different HE list for once. I'm actually pretty bored playing against HE, it never changes so I'm stuck taking the same list every time as well.

I think this is the real problem. I think any army would be fun to paly against if the lists were different between games. On the other hand any army that has one or a few power builds and strategies becomes boring after a few games.

You know what to do (options are usually limited against power lists) and your opponent will do similar things as the previous opponent you played who brought this army. Either the outcome is more or less given before the game starts or it comes down to lucky dice rolling.

Flogger
12-11-2010, 11:57
What army you hate playing against, especially at a tournament when the gloves come off and why?

Wood Elves, especially now in 8th when it's even more avoidance than it was in 7th. A forest spirit army I could handle as they're combat oriented.

Also facing Kairos or Teclis is just boring and I don't see how anyone could find joy in playing with either of those characters.

I usually play a Goblin army but also Empire, Daemons, Ogres and Tomb Kings.

giveem12
19-11-2010, 03:00
im not very good but so far i hate playing the cheatn highelves warriors and daemons of choas. i have a few friends and we have game nights most thursdays and sundays. we have a wood elf player , vamp, bret, dark elf, skaven, daemon of chaos, warriors of chaos, and me orc&goblins but im switchn to beastmen. but when i playd orcs wood elves were slauterd some how my goblins always killd the general in the vamps so thy just crumbled and skaven werent that big of a deal. but i cant win against highelves, daemon and warriors of chaos.

Gwyddyon
19-11-2010, 03:42
Another vote for High Elves. Granted, I've only faced HE, Brets, and Lizardmen, but that ASF re-roll makes me want to smash things, starting with my opponent's Swordmasters. They're almost the sole reason I'm planning to triple the number of crossbows and pistols I field (and I'd take more cannons, too, if I wasn't at the limit already).

Naeni
19-11-2010, 21:35
High Elves.

logan054
19-11-2010, 22:13
Another vote for High Elves. Granted, I've only faced HE, Brets, and Lizardmen, but that ASF re-roll makes me want to smash things, starting with my opponent's Swordmasters. They're almost the sole reason I'm planning to triple the number of crossbows and pistols I field (and I'd take more cannons, too, if I wasn't at the limit already).

The only things I hate when playing against HE is SM, Teclis and book of Hoeth, generally I have no issues with fighting against the army, the enjoyment of the game is however down the person I am playing against. An example of this was a guy wittering on about how I should have printed off the erratas (which When I looked didn't actually answer the question about Gateway :rolleyes:), other than that all I can remember was Blah blah blah and knocking of models.

tinytom113
21-11-2010, 12:19
VC uber cheesyin 7th les sooo now but my O&G taking fear tests on BASIC LD is a complete pain. O yes lets charge the skellies, no run away fine grrrrrrrrrr

Lordy
21-11-2010, 12:34
Skaven Skaven Skaven, i hate them so much!

ramongoroth
21-11-2010, 13:04
I must admit a seriously tooled out Skaven force is a hard one for me. I'm used to being outnumbered (I play High Elves) but it's the fact that I have yet to find a weakness in their army. Good shooting (warplightning cannon, weapon teams, Doomrocket, Plagueclaw catapult) - check. Good magic combos (Dreaded 13th, Scalm, Power Scroll as well as lots of cheap casters) - check. Good combat (Abomb, Slave pits, Plague Cencer Bearers). Good Leadership and cheap units. HOW THE HELL ARE YOU MEANT TO WIN AGAINST THIS?!

As you can see, I am a tad miffed about those damn rats.. :/

This pretty much sums up my feelings as well. Add to that I've never liked the skaven concept to begin with.

snottlebocket
21-11-2010, 13:09
I don't hate facing any army. I hate facing players. There's so few people left who understand that it's a game you play with each other, not against each other. Not a chance to abuse and twist everything just to make sure you win.

logan054
21-11-2010, 16:05
I don't hate facing any army. I hate facing players. There's so few people left who understand that it's a game you play with each other, not against each other. Not a chance to abuse and twist everything just to make sure you win.

I actually blame this partly on sites such as warseer, you look in the armylist section and it really is no wonder you see so many more of these dull powerbuilds.

djpringle
22-11-2010, 05:16
My regular opponent will either bring DE or Skaven, I have a 50% win rate against both with my Goblin army. It's not so much a hate but I find the DE army to be so dull so much prefer facing the Skaven, I love the little bits of randomness the Skaven machines bring to the table :)

VoodooJanus
22-11-2010, 06:29
I actually blame this partly on sites such as warseer, you look in the armylist section and it really is no wonder you see so many more of these dull powerbuilds.

Well, that's not really fair either. Just because something provides the knowledge to do something, doesn't mean that every person is compelled to do it. The problem IS truly the attitude of the WAAC community, or at least the members of said community who don't know how to switch into 'friendly mode.' You could probably argue that the casual types are the problem, but really, I've had fun games against casual gamers in much greater proportions than against people whose sole purpose is to win.

Honestly, the generalized view of the value of the win itself is probably larger than it should be, but, for me, the problem is that making some souped up power-build doesn't really test your skills within the game, despite the fact that many people think it does.

IMO, when 'list building' is viewed outside of the bounds of a tactical advantage, and rather a specific and theorized skill set, Warhammer (and any wargame really) becomes that much more fun. Besides, as anyone who has played a low-power themed army will tell you, the wins with it (if they come) are so much more satisfying than if you had taken the top tier power list out there.

mistrmoon
22-11-2010, 20:30
I don't hate facing any army. I hate facing players. There's so few people left who understand that it's a game you play with each other, not against each other. Not a chance to abuse and twist everything just to make sure you win.


I actually blame this partly on sites such as warseer, you look in the armylist section and it really is no wonder you see so many more of these dull powerbuilds.

I'm going to agree with both of you and as for websites being the problem I'm going to come straight out and say that BellofLostSouls is the worst thing ever happen to warhammer (more specifically 40k) .

Malorian
22-11-2010, 20:58
I'm going to agree with both of you and as for websites being the problem I'm going to come straight out and say that BellofLostSouls is the worst thing ever happen to warhammer (more specifically 40k) .

Any forum is going to become a place that competitive players can get together to determine the best build.

The proplem with BoLS is that they actually come right out and promote it themselves :rolleyes:

StormCrow
22-11-2010, 21:02
I hate facing High Elves but then again I am a Dark Elf player so it seems characterful

Rikkjourd
22-11-2010, 21:26
gunline Dwarves are the hardest to beat for sure. Normal setup I face is as many war machines with runes as possible, 2-3 units of 10-12 handgunners, runeguy with Mess-up-your-dice-items, BSB, lord and some fighty unit to put the chars in.

Then he deploys as far back as possible and keeps shooting until you get close, then the char heavy CC unit tries to charge whatever is the most threatening.

I really hate this setup. But strangely enough, it doesn't make me want to avoid it, it makes me want to destroy it! Next time I'll get you!

mteutli
22-11-2010, 21:40
I hate play against an army made specific vs my army, i usually play estandard list, in some cases i had dispel scroll vs dwarfs, just becouse i dont move my list and i play against whatever army.

karse88
22-11-2010, 21:55
I hate to play HE! he, like many other people in this tread:P ! but seriously!
SM and WL are so OP! :P
3 different kinds of dragons! :P
i think they have had a bit more attention than some of the other races, because of the huge selection of troops, item and magic lores :) they can't adapt and go strong against any army.. they can play allmost every kind of tactic... i play skaven, and i have had some good fights against HE... BUT I STILL HATE THEM! :P HE and VC!

karse88
22-11-2010, 21:57
I hate facing High Elves but then again I am a Dark Elf player so it seems characterful

Nice :P haha

Maelstorm
22-11-2010, 22:41
Well, karse88, the problem with dragons is just that they arenīt worth taking anymore. I play WoC and i can barely fit a Dragonlord into 2500pts (i think he gets 50 pts of gear), and they still get butchered by magic or warmachines, since you canīt hide things as effectively in 8th.

Playing WoC, I would say either a good DE-player or Lizardmen. If we are talking special builds, gunline dwarves and avoidive WE. Anything you canīt catch or smash.
I donīt find HE that big a problem, and I really dont see the issue. They are expensive and fragile, even if they are good in cc. Just shootīem. And there is still no reason to worry about monsters, since HE basiclly just have dragons and eagles (DE ahve hydras and WE have Treemen). But, my lack of fear for the pointy-ears might just be dependent on the army I am playing.

logan054
22-11-2010, 23:00
Well, that's not really fair either. Just because something provides the knowledge to do something, doesn't mean that every person is compelled to do it. The problem IS truly the attitude of the WAAC community, or at least the members of said community who don't know how to switch into 'friendly mode.

Well I don't literally mean that warseer is to blame for the rise on OTT list, its more the vocal minority gets a louder voice on the internet than they do in real life. At the end of the day if you a new player getting beaten a lot you don't really care about how you win, you just want to win for a change. I also think its in recent years GW has started to attract a very different crowd than when I first got into the hobby, games like DoW certainly attract the type that will pick the most powerful unit and just spam it ( I actually can't stand playing DoW online because of this).


I donīt find HE that big a problem, and I really dont see the issue. They are expensive and fragile, even if they are good in cc. Just shootīem. And there is still no reason to worry about monsters, since HE basiclly just have dragons and eagles (DE ahve hydras and WE have Treemen). But, my lack of fear for the pointy-ears might just be dependent on the army I am playing.

HE are fine to play against unless they are using the book of Hoeth, I personally find this item ridiculous when used in conjunction with spells that last the whole game, I am still trying to figure out what I was meant to learn from playing against it and some numb nut kept telling me the other night I was in GW.

karse88
22-11-2010, 23:03
Well, karse88, the problem with dragons is just that they arenīt worth taking anymore. I play WoC and i can barely fit a Dragonlord into 2500pts (i think he gets 50 pts of gear), and they still get butchered by magic or warmachines, since you canīt hide things as effectively in 8th.

Playing WoC, I would say either a good DE-player or Lizardmen. If we are talking special builds, gunline dwarves and avoidive WE. Anything you canīt catch or smash.
I donīt find HE that big a problem, and I really dont see the issue. They are expensive and fragile, even if they are good in cc. Just shootīem. And there is still no reason to worry about monsters, since HE basiclly just have dragons and eagles (DE ahve hydras and WE have Treemen). But, my lack of fear for the pointy-ears might just be dependent on the army I am playing.

how can you say "just shoot them" when you'r playing WoC? :P
there is nothing in the skaven army you can rely on for sure ;) IF HE make it to cc, skaven are donefall ... obviously :p
My friend uses the dragon alot, and uses it well... what would you do against a HE dragon?
skaven would probarbly just use WLC :p

Bergen Beerbelly
23-11-2010, 06:18
I hate to play any army if it is a spam list. For instance, In 6th edition I used to play against a guy that ALWAYS took 3 of empire volley guns and blew the snot out of everything that got near.

And then the same guy would spam Chaos Chosen Knights in his Chaos army(as much as he could get) screened by chaos hounds on the way in. And he always used some character on a chariot that was toughness 5 or something and always chewed through my Ironbreakers. I used to hate those lists as I always played close combat Dwarves with no anvil. I don't play gunlines. So his stupid cheesed out lists would ALWAYS win against my dwarves list.

I've never won a single game against him in 10+ years of playing warhammer with him. I've beat plenty of other people and lost to many others but I've never been able to win against those stupid Chaos chosen lists he makes and that stupid empire volley gun list.

karse88
23-11-2010, 10:39
if he allways uses the same tactic, you should be able to counter him?, eventhoug i know its hard :) WoC is a pretty though opponent

King_Pash
23-11-2010, 10:42
I hate to play any army if it is a spam list. For instance, In 6th edition I used to play against a guy that ALWAYS took 3 of empire volley guns and blew the snot out of everything that got near.

And then the same guy would spam Chaos Chosen Knights in his Chaos army(as much as he could get) screened by chaos hounds on the way in. And he always used some character on a chariot that was toughness 5 or something and always chewed through my Ironbreakers. I used to hate those lists as I always played close combat Dwarves with no anvil. I don't play gunlines. So his stupid cheesed out lists would ALWAYS win against my dwarves list.

I've never won a single game against him in 10+ years of playing warhammer with him. I've beat plenty of other people and lost to many others but I've never been able to win against those stupid Chaos chosen lists he makes and that stupid empire volley gun list.

Shouldn't that mean you should change your tactic? Perhaps go a bit more shooty, damn, Dwarves can really do that one well.

If you point-blank refuse to adapt then don't moan that you always lose.

Wyrmnax
23-11-2010, 11:11
Army i hate facing...

Umm... dont think i actually hate facing anything.

I do have a problem with gunline/warmachine spam dwarves and empire, but its just the nature of the beast. HE is fairly vulnerable to gunlines, WoC has a problem with warmachines.

I just dont like facing armies that make the game boring. Dwarves can do that if they want - shut down your magic phase, sit down and roll dice for 3 turns until you get to him. The dwarf player i usually play against goes out of the way to make that not happen and make it a fun game.

Bergen Beerbelly
23-11-2010, 16:29
He didn't always use the same tactic for there are many ways to set up an army, even if you use the exact same models. He just used cheese lists in friendly games.

Jadawin
23-11-2010, 16:53
Personnally it has to be DE, particularly in 7th when they brought me and my long time gaming partner (of nearly 20 years) almost to the point of blows with their shocking cheesy magic item combos that were default choices (banner of hag greaf- crimson halberd black guards, Runebane assasin etc.)

I still find them impossible to beat in 8th with O&G and Skaven in fact my skaven have suffered horribly against them but in 8th I feel it is a more tactical reason (i.e. my own ineptitude) rather than default magic combos that are my bane. I think its a measure of how I think of DEs that I took no pleasure in using my freinds DEs against him when we swapped teams, in fact I remember it being almost comically easy to win with them in 7th. As a result I do not want to use them in 8th as I find any army that can have all its weaknesses easily counteracted is no fun to use and it takes the shine off any victory, winning with O&G is a great feeling, with DEs... meh.

DaemonReign
23-11-2010, 20:35
Personnally it has to be DE, particularly in 7th when they brought me and my long time gaming partner (of nearly 20 years) almost to the point of blows with their shocking cheesy magic item combos that were default choices (banner of hag greaf- crimson halberd black guards, Runebane assasin etc.)

I still find them impossible to beat in 8th with O&G and Skaven in fact my skaven have suffered horribly against them but in 8th I feel it is a more tactical reason (i.e. my own ineptitude) rather than default magic combos that are my bane. I think its a measure of how I think of DEs that I took no pleasure in using my freinds DEs against him when we swapped teams, in fact I remember it being almost comically easy to win with them in 7th. As a result I do not want to use them in 8th as I find any army that can have all its weaknesses easily counteracted is no fun to use and it takes the shine off any victory, winning with O&G is a great feeling, with DEs... meh.

Yeah I had the same experience against DE in 7th Ed. You could choose - when playing DE - to build Lists that were just horrendous.. Just plain horrendous.

8th Ed seemingly evened so much things out though.. Things are so even now in our group (DE, VC, DoC, Dwarves, Empire, OnG) that none of old "sayings" seem to be true anymore.

This is just excellent, really. Not that I hated facing DE in 7th Ed - I took it a challange and actually thought it was very much fun to go up against a foe where the odds where so stacked against me.

Gotrek
23-11-2010, 23:41
i hate playing against dwarfs but that's most likely becouse i play dwarfs myself and cannonball tenis kinda sucks not to mention that if there is anything that dwarfs wouldn't be killing is other dwarfs. everything else is fair game

Delicious Ron
24-11-2010, 10:41
I haven't actually faced them yet but I fear fighting DE, as they can easily squeeze in a hydra in a 1000 point army and I don't know how to counter it with my mostly NG O&G army.

Kayosiv
24-11-2010, 11:04
I haven't actually faced them yet but I fear fighting DE, as they can easily squeeze in a hydra in a 1000 point army and I don't know how to counter it with my mostly NG O&G army.

FIRE?

Or double spear chuckas.

Reimu
24-11-2010, 12:10
FANATICS and hope for the best!

logan054
24-11-2010, 12:19
i hate playing against dwarfs but that's most likely becouse i play dwarfs myself and cannonball tenis kinda sucks not to mention that if there is anything that dwarfs wouldn't be killing is other dwarfs. everything else is fair game

Put a few pubs on the table and the game starts to make a lot of sense ;)

Reimu
24-11-2010, 14:38
'Specially if they're the kind with the special rooms upstairs.

EDIT: New campaign rule!

Capture the whorehouse:

For every territory with a whorehouse under your command, any unit can re-roll any psychology test once per a game. Does not apply to Undead (ew!), Daemons, Monsters or other models for whom severe difficulties would arise.

Theblackdwarf
24-11-2010, 16:05
Make that a +2, a lot of things brought in this topic are down to the person being unable to resist taking the most powerful choices every single time. I was like this guy I played in GW, 500pts, Stegadon, blowpipes, wizard, what fun I had with WoC :(

I played some guy last night, I had to walk away from the table several times because of how aggressive the guy was, I mean I understand getting annoyed because your losing and all but this was a whole new level. I was starting to get annoyed because he kept knocking my models, I even tried to make a joke of it and the guy just roaring taking things the wrong way. Never again, I think the best part was his insinuated I was a drug addicted, good stuff.

I think I would rather spend 2 days at GW GT/Throne of playing a Techlis with a pure khorne army and no magic defense than repeat that experience.

Logan was this at the Colchester Games workshop? If so i have a good idea of who it might be

bert n ernie
24-11-2010, 16:27
Does not apply to Undead (ew!), Daemons, Monsters or other models for whom severe difficulties would arise.

Or fail to arise as the case may be :p

logan054
24-11-2010, 16:40
Logan was this at the Colchester Games workshop? If so i have a good idea of who it might be

lol yes it was, you know who I am talking about, when I meet people like that i tend remember why I used to smoke a lot ;)

Not a word to the elf.
24-11-2010, 17:17
Gunline Dwarves


I you think Teclis is an autowin button then you have not seen cannonsniping before. Another hint at gunline dwarves is that one guy with dwarves I played at Storm the Coast was someone who organ gunned my bunker then cannon sniped teclis. He rolled the number of wounds and they came up a 2. Then as he proceeded to cannon snipe lone teclis he rolled 10's on the added inches for the rest of the game. Gunline Karma

mistrmoon
24-11-2010, 17:39
Gunline Dwarves


I you think Teclis is an autowin button then you have not seen cannonsniping before. Another hint at gunline dwarves is that one guy with dwarves I played at Storm the Coast was someone who organ gunned my bunker then cannon sniped teclis. He rolled the number of wounds and they came up a 2. Then as he proceeded to cannon snipe lone teclis he rolled 10's on the added inches for the rest of the game. Gunline Karma

Ummm actually hitting a character with a cannonball is a completely legitimate tactic.....

Don't forget that dwarfs don't have things like assassins, blood crusher torpedoes or death magic to deal with characters. Cannons is how they getit done.

If you want to talk karma I'd say getting cannon sniped was karma for taking teclis., he is far more of an "I win button" than a cannon.

TrojanWolf
24-11-2010, 20:32
Teclis is the one model in the entire game that cannot be fielded without a bodyguard. When alone, he becomes a magnet for things like doomrockets and skitterleaping assassins with warpstone stars. :D

Rikadome
24-11-2010, 20:39
I am not a fan of Skaven whatsoever. Their combination of powerful magic, shooting, and high numbers of models that are hard to panic since they are LD 9 makes for a not fun game and an insane amount of difficulty.

eyescrossed
25-11-2010, 07:44
I'd still rather face the cheesiest Skaven army than a Teclis one, though.

logan054
25-11-2010, 07:46
Ummm actually hitting a character with a cannonball is a completely legitimate tactic.....

Don't forget that dwarfs don't have things like assassins, blood crusher torpedoes or death magic to deal with characters. Cannons is how they getit done.

If you want to talk karma I'd say getting cannon sniped was karma for taking teclis., he is far more of an "I win button" than a cannon.

Yes because Dwarf characters with the right runes are just awful in combat :rolleyes:

cptcosmic
25-11-2010, 08:08
Yes because Dwarf characters with the right runes are just awful in combat :rolleyes:
beside that, there is no real defense against cannons except luck.

Althwen
25-11-2010, 10:03
I hate facing Dark Elves.

They received way too much of the fairydust, in my opinion.
Their armies can be shaped in any way be it fighty, shooty, magicky, fast, etc. and all of these options produce viable armylists.
Add to that the insane combinations of special rules and magic items, and you got yourself an infuriating opponent.
seriously, Power of Darkness AND a dagger that allows you to kill off a spearman to add extra dice to a spell?
seriously, 1+ armoursave AND reverse Ward save?
seriously, crossbows that can move&shoot, multiple shot AND armour piercing?

RagingHobo
25-11-2010, 11:42
beside that, there is no real defense against cannons except luck.

Theres no defense against that irresistible force of doom spell that swallows my Hammerer character bunker either. Lets call it an even trade.

cptcosmic
25-11-2010, 11:50
Theres no defense against that irresistible force of doom spell that swallows my Hammerer character bunker either. Lets call it an even trade.
point taken but mage characters are more expensive than war machines and usually not nearly as efficient. atleast in my games :D

Theblackdwarf
25-11-2010, 14:17
lol yes it was, you know who I am talking about, when I meet people like that i tend remember why I used to smoke a lot ;)

Well that's just the player then not so much the army. The guy turns up to most vets nights with an army but comes loaded with excuses for not playing such as "Oh i hate eldar." "Too many marine armies out there".

Razaan
25-11-2010, 14:41
I am not a fan of Skaven whatsoever. Their combination of powerful magic, shooting, and high numbers of models that are hard to panic since they are LD 9 makes for a not fun game and an insane amount of difficulty.

I don't know who you are playing against, but my skaven are usually leadership 10.

:)

logan054
25-11-2010, 14:54
Well that's just the player then not so much the army. The guy turns up to most vets nights with an army but comes loaded with excuses for not playing such as "Oh i hate eldar." "Too many marine armies out there".

Martin is a tool, plain and simple, i used to play him down the club near the noodle bar years ago, he was a muppet then as well, trust me, I know it isn't the army. Who are you down GW then?

Theblackdwarf
25-11-2010, 22:44
I've had a few bad experiences with him aswell. Its mroe irritating when he stands at the side of a game you and another player are having and constantly feels the need to chip in.

Names Adam, i came down almost weekly with Brets or dwarves til i finished uni

logan054
25-11-2010, 23:00
I did have the manager apologize to me afterwards as it was my first game in that GW in several years, luckily the other guys are cool, I would agree he is just as annoying on the side line. I was playing against a guy with teclis last week and he kept going on how "that will teach me a lesson" and "that will help you learn". I have to say it was rather annoying, I've been playing warhammer for like 18 years and model that you can't dispel and thus use any magic defense against doesn't teach me anything. Seriously when that guys opens his mouth I just want to punch him out, he is really the worst person to play, he doesn't have a clue what he is doing, he just sits on the table edge shooting and then wants to give up when you charge his units.

Why does warhammer attract these people, they really do give the hobby a bad name :mad:

Anyways, how long ago was it you used to go into Col store?

RagingHobo
26-11-2010, 05:39
point taken but mage characters are more expensive than war machines and usually not nearly as efficient. atleast in my games :D

Just throw your mage in a bigger unit, then the dwarf player will need to direct all his fire at them remove look out sir. Your really need a unit at least 30 strong otherwise a single stone thrower hit could make him vulnerable.

In my particular army I have a runed up strength 5 stonethrower a cannon & an organ gun for a total of 400 points, so its equal too if not more then a level 4 mage. I would also need a direct hit on my stone thrower and maybe 6-10 hits with the organ gun which wont be in range until the 2nd turn, giving you time to shoot or cast at my war machines.

I think Dwarfs get a pretty hard time here on warseer sometimes, so i feel the need to defend them :p

I will agree have been given a huge boost in 8th addition but its about time we had our day, even though other armies will catch up as new books are released.

Actually back on topic, I really hate facing Book of Hoeth. I've been lucky enough to avoid facing teclis so far though. I also have difficulty against lizardmen. Gigantic units of saurus and scouting skinks give dwarfs a hard time.

Theblackdwarf
26-11-2010, 12:30
I did have the manager apologize to me afterwards as it was my first game in that GW in several years, luckily the other guys are cool, I would agree he is just as annoying on the side line. I was playing against a guy with teclis last week and he kept going on how "that will teach me a lesson" and "that will help you learn". I have to say it was rather annoying, I've been playing warhammer for like 18 years and model that you can't dispel and thus use any magic defense against doesn't teach me anything. Seriously when that guys opens his mouth I just want to punch him out, he is really the worst person to play, he doesn't have a clue what he is doing, he just sits on the table edge shooting and then wants to give up when you charge his units.

Why does warhammer attract these people, they really do give the hobby a bad name :mad:

Anyways, how long ago was it you used to go into Col store?

I Left at the end of July so mightve just missed you. I agree, i spend a lot of time defending the hobby to friends of mine that dont play and it's people like him that invalidate any points i try to make.

I've heard horror stories about tournament players getting fairly worked up but i just cant fathom how someone gets so worked up at a gaming night. Everyone else there fosters a very friendly and casual environment, there's no pressure to win at all.

Take a game i had last wednesday. It was a comedy of errors for both our generals (we've started making up backstories for them now). Me and my mate were belly laughing the entire game. It boggles the mind how people can get so angry over a game.

Back on to topic. I hate the Thorek gunline with a firey passion. I attended a tourney at Warhammer world where two out of three games were against them. One game was so horrendous i was packing up halfway through. I can handle people playing to win and all that, its expected in a tournament. What irritated me the most was that i was insanely bored during the game. Win or lose, i have never been able to say i was bored playing Warhammer before.

logan054
26-11-2010, 12:55
I found its easier to avoid of the subject of warhammer with people who don't play it, for some strange reason people can't understand I have hobby and like to do things other than drink.

I have seen those horror stories first hand, i went to a tournament in reading a while back (actually when the WoC book came out), I remember one guy threw one of his vampires because it had blown up every game. Normally i would have felt sorry for the guy but I played him and he had forbidden lore and took lore of metal against my WoC so I thought that was justice :D I went to the first 7th ed warhammer tournament and I have to say a few people really needed a slap, I mean I had people trying to claim a model was in the center of the board when it clearly wasnt and try to say he could claim any table quarter, I had a guy saying his beastman shaman could pass his Mark of chaos undecided onto other models :wtf: Come on, just play the bloody game! What annoyed me about the Beastman example I was using a Chaos army and he is trying to tell me how the army works!

I think one of the biggest mistakes GW made was removing the permission only from special characters, they clearly are not equally balanaced so really should not be allowed in competitive play. Players know this but they still use them, so really its not a problem with the army you faced but rather the person you played. Last week I had the joy I facing against Teclis with lore of metal against WoC so I can understand how you could be bored in a game, book of Hoeth and hexs that last the remainder of the game is insanely unbalanced.

Ratbeast
26-11-2010, 13:07
I found its easier to avoid of the subject of warhammer with people who don't play it, for some strange reason people can't understand I have hobby and like to do things other than drink.

I have seen those horror stories first hand, i went to a tournament in reading a while back (actually when the WoC book came out), I remember one guy threw one of his vampires because it had blown up every game. Normally i would have felt sorry for the guy but I played him and he had forbidden lore and took lore of metal against my WoC so I thought that was justice :D I went to the first 7th ed warhammer tournament and I have to say a few people really needed a slap, I mean I had people trying to claim a model was in the center of the board when it clearly wasnt and try to say he could claim any table quarter, I had a guy saying his beastman shaman could pass his Mark of chaos undecided onto other models :wtf: Come on, just play the bloody game! What annoyed me about the Beastman example I was using a Chaos army and he is trying to tell me how the army works!

I think one of the biggest mistakes GW made was removing the permission only from special characters, they clearly are not equally balanaced so really should not be allowed in competitive play. Players know this but they still use them, so really its not a problem with the army you faced but rather the person you played. Last week I had the joy I facing against Teclis with lore of metal against WoC so I can understand how you could be bored in a game, book of Hoeth and hexs that last the remainder of the game is insanely unbalanced.

Agree alot of people do need a good back hand

One of the reasons i dont go to tourns these days are the people who mark you down on painting and sportsmanship, just cause you massacre them, i remember this one dude, gave me a 0 out of 5 on painting, even though half my force if not more was painted (which warranted at least a 2 or 3), just cause i owned him by turn 3, won the best general award though :)

Theblackdwarf
26-11-2010, 13:20
I dont so much have a problem with special characters. I've handled mounted Archaon lists and the like. My issue is people who make armies that are just based around special characters. They can be fun but when theyre just an easy win trigger then it takes all the fun out of the game.

One of the most satisfying aspects of the game is honing an army build to the point where it is competitive because of your synergy with it, not because you're point and clicking with an uber lord of doom.

The issue with the Thorek list was that the players turn was literally a shooting phase. Thats doing away with any notion of tactical thought when you've sliced two thirds of the turn off

logan054
26-11-2010, 13:36
Agree alot of people do need a good back hand

One of the reasons i dont go to tourns these days are the people who mark you down on painting and sportsmanship, just cause you massacre them, i remember this one dude, gave me a 0 out of 5 on painting, even though half my force if not more was painted (which warranted at least a 2 or 3), just cause i owned him by turn 3, won the best general award though :)

I think alot of people just need to get laid ;)

I don't really go to them now because as soon as I start doing well I end up having to play really dull cheese list, last one I went to was great the first two games, then I had to play against a 2nd gen slann with a scroll caddie as defense followed by a nurgle wall of fun list. I seem to recall charging a unit of plague bearers in one flank with a unit of knights + exalted, another flank with a shaggoth while engaged in the front with a unit a unit of warriors and still not being able to shift them :wtf: Oh the joys of 7th ed. People actually say 8th is less tactical :rolleyes:

Sadly what you mentioned with painting score doesn't surprise me, I do find alot of people who play warhammer can just be dicks, oh you beat me so I'm going to sulk and give you a crappy comp score. Still I have played some really cool people at Tournaments, some of the best I played was at the first 7th ed GT, a empire guy with a Arabian themed themed army, very nice guy, VC player (who was lucky I flopped my attacks :mad:) and a Dogs of war player. If I do go to one again I think it will be the spikey club one in reading in Jan, thats the one who had the VC player who got upset because his vampire blew up.


I dont so much have a problem with special characters. I've handled mounted Archaon lists and the like. My issue is people who make armies that are just based around special characters. They can be fun but when theyre just an easy win trigger then it takes all the fun out of the game.

One of the most satisfying aspects of the game is honing an army build to the point where it is competitive because of your synergy with it, not because you're point and clicking with an uber lord of doom.

The issue with the Thorek list was that the players turn was literally a shooting phase. Thats doing away with any notion of tactical thought when you've sliced two thirds of the turn off

Well I don't hate all special characters, I ave found a lot of boring games I have played have involved them, if people used special characters to add flavor to the army it wouldn't be so bad, sadly this is not the case in so many instances, Our friend from GW Col has only ever beaten me once, that was with valten in a unit of knights, I had a exalted hero to stand up to them, it didn't go well, he did try that trick again and I just took a chaos runeshield the 2nd time :D

I did play a HE+ lizzard army like that down GW a few weeks back, I was allied with dwarfs, they kept moving back, I kept moving forward, joy of joys

warhammero
26-11-2010, 14:23
And imagine 4 of that machines, the unit of WoC that i try to destroy have:
Ward Sace 3+
+1 Attack
+1 Toughnes
and Stubborn,

It was a unit of 20 lords.

If i see a list like that again i just going to play to see how much i can kill, I play wood elves.

VoodooJanus
30-11-2010, 06:44
I think alot of people just need to get laid ;)



Should we really be encouraging those types to procreate? Really?

I had a really bad game last week. I've never met a player who was a poorer sport. Almost made me quit fantasy altogether, as I've been having a hard time maintaining interest with my growing string of defeats against the increasingly large population LM + WoC players @ my game store. I was doing middlingly well against a Lizardmen opponent with my Wood Elves (read: fantastic for Wood Elves), when I opted to take a bathroom break after I finished a turn, and I asked him to wait for me before he made any rolls etc. Not only did he not do that, he obviously moved several units far more than they should have been able to move, and had even begun the magic phase without me, claiming to have IF'd 2 spells in my absence, both of which rolled the rather innocuous 7 on the mishap chart (neither of which did any damage of course.) One of the other guys in the shop even confirmed my suspicions (publicly), that he had 'scooted' some models 3-4" and had rerolled his magic dice several times for the non-IF results.

I'd be lenient if this was a younger kid (because winning matters a lot as a young 'un), but this was a 30 year old man! I've NEVER in my history of wargaming run into someone this bad.

Anyway, it's a bit off topic, but I wanted to add to the point: the player determines the game's enjoyability far more than the army s/he brings. I'll happily take a beating if it means the guy across the table is a decent opponent (well, at some point it stops being fun for either player...) Anyway, it's really sad to see this kind of behavior: it gives Games Workshop players (and really all wargames players) a universally bad name that they don't deserve.

cool-kid-on-the-block
30-11-2010, 13:31
i agree that player is a massive importance and i get frowned at a lot by GW staff for playing my friends often and not other people but when i can have a friendly chat and game with someone but play an army i have already faced i would rather take it to playing someone i dont like with an army that is probably more competatice than mine so my chances of winning are slimmed as well.

that said i do play other people and my one hate is armys that play a 'catch me if yo can' playstyle. WE are fames for this and i could quite happily remove WE from the game completly and think nothing of it. but DE also do these list well if not better than WE now. dark riders and shades and charriots and hydras and pegasus nobles. WHY!

Badders
30-11-2010, 13:59
I think alot of people just need to get laid ;)

[QUOTE=VoodooJanus;5152628]Should we really be encouraging those types to procreate? Really?[QUOTE]

If its good enough for the pope...

logan054
30-11-2010, 14:00
Should we really be encouraging those types to procreate? Really?

LOL, well they might become a different type without of the sexual frustration ;)

Caitsidhe
30-11-2010, 14:29
I had a really bad game last week. I've never met a player who was a poorer sport. Almost made me quit fantasy altogether,

Why would you give this jerk the satisfaction? You simply don't give this person any more games and you make sure other people you know and trust are aware of exactly what kind of player they are dealing with.


as I've been having a hard time maintaining interest with my growing string of defeats against the increasingly large population LM + WoC players @ my game store.

This, however, is your own problem. If your interest declines with your victories, you might not have the right personality for this kind of game. Myself, I love fighting opponents that are better (or simply have an edge) over me. That is how you hone a blade. You seek out those people who kick your butt and take your lumps. Eventually you will start winning. The fun (and my interest as you put it) is in the challenge.


I was doing middlingly well against a Lizardmen opponent with my Wood Elves (read: fantastic for Wood Elves), when I opted to take a bathroom break after I finished a turn, and I asked him to wait for me before he made any rolls etc. Not only did he not do that, he obviously moved several units far more than they should have been able to move, and had even begun the magic phase without me, claiming to have IF'd 2 spells in my absence, both of which rolled the rather innocuous 7 on the mishap chart (neither of which did any damage of course.) One of the other guys in the shop even confirmed my suspicions (publicly), that he had 'scooted' some models 3-4" and had rerolled his magic dice several times for the non-IF results.

This person is a dirty cheat. You call them a dirty cheat. You don't play with them. I don't have this problem in my venue. I've gone to the bathroom many times. My opponents (and myself) will go right on moving things without issue because we are not dirty cheats. We feel comfortable going forward with the things that can be done without oversight. This is because when dirty cheats show up, we give them the blackball as soon as their colors are shown. That is the solution.


I'd be lenient if this was a younger kid (because winning matters a lot as a young 'un), but this was a 30 year old man! I've NEVER in my history of wargaming run into someone this bad.

Age is not an excuse. Young or old, a dirty cheat gets the door. Winning is important to me and I'm an old man by your standards. You cannot actually win if you are cheating. No real man (or woman) wants a win by cheat. They would always know they didn't win. They would always know that not only were they inferior, they were also so pathetic as to try and cover it up. If you are easy on young'uns who cheat... you get old ones that cheat. You tar and feather the lot.


Anyway, it's a bit off topic, but I wanted to add to the point: the player determines the game's enjoyability far more than the army s/he brings. I'll happily take a beating if it means the guy across the table is a decent opponent (well, at some point it stops being fun for either player...) Anyway, it's really sad to see this kind of behavior: it gives Games Workshop players (and really all wargames players) a universally bad name that they don't deserve.

I don't care if the guy across the table says three words to me as long as he is a good player and doesn't cheat. They can be friendly. They can be cold. They just have to know their stuff. Cheats give ANY game a bad name.

smithers
30-11-2010, 20:15
Like I said, nothing wrong with dwarfs weakening a enemy before they engage in combat, the problem is when you hit turn 4 and you are only just starting to move.

You do realize that both quarellers and thunderers are Move or shoot yes?

And you really expect them to move anyways, just to make the game more "fun" ?

I find your attitude of "advance and fight me or I'll pack up my models" pretty funny given that you play (big surprise) WoC.

Now if you played Wood Elves with this attitude yeah that would be a different story, but you are basically demanding that your players abandon all strategy/tactics and just rush into a meat grinder because that is "fun" for you.

I don't see how you can get games at all with this kind of attitude.

logan054
30-11-2010, 22:22
I find your attitude of "advance and fight me or I'll pack up my models" pretty funny given that you play (big surprise) WoC.

I also play DE, VC, BoC, Empire (well I did play empire), My advice, get all the facts before you start gibbering on.


you are basically demanding that your players abandon all strategy/tactics and just rush into a meat grinder because that is "fun" for you.

I don't see how you can get games at all with this kind of attitude.

For a start you playing 8th ed, 8th ed is move forward, 6 dice a spell of doom, repeat until you win, so the statergy you talk about it complete bull, I take it you ignored my comments on my usual experience with gunline players. I shall repeat this for, I spend 4 turns being shot, I get in charge range and they call it if I make a couple of charges. Its not all that fun to play against because basically all I get to do is move some models and roll saves.

Its amazing how some of you manage to exaggerate some a post so much, Not sure how you come up with rushing? Turn 4 is actually 2/3rds of the way through the game.

Here is also a interesting think, for my unit of 18 Khorne warriors with halberds you can hey a unit of 36 dwarfs warriors with great weapons which would be able to get 25 strength 5 attacks against that unit. In a 2k WoC army you are not going to see more than 2/3 units, most likely. Problem with a lot of you these gunline players is they have 200pts combat unit and wonder why don't stand a chance against a 400pts combat unit from a elite combat army.

The problem with Khorne warriors is it doesn't take a lot of shooting to take out a 400pts unit either, couple a rounds from a Organ Gun and its going to have a tough time beating a horde unit of dwarfs.

So whats the problem really? You don't want a army that engages, you want to sit on the board edge making the game and boring as possible, thats your right at the end of the day just as its my right not to want to play you. Moving my models forward as quickly as possible doesn't require the use of tactics just as you just sitting your army on the spot doesn't require a great deal of thought. Those kind of games are basically "what do I try and kill", and I can think of better ways to spend my time, I am sorry if you don't like this view but it is the hard truth.

As for your daft question, yes I know handguns are move and shoot, who said anything about moving a missile unit towards a H2H army, quarellers I didn't know nor care, i think I have seen them used once, I was unaware however these are only units in a dwarf army.

eyescrossed
01-12-2010, 04:57
If you're worried about your Warriors dying, take a block of Tzeentch ones with the Blasted Standard and slaughter the Dwarf player, if you really want them to change their tactics. Not that there's much else a Dwarf army can do.

The problem you experience isn't the player; it's the book. Good Dwarf builds are inherenty static, which makes them boring to play against.

logan054
01-12-2010, 05:19
@eyecrossed - my post was more to make a point rather than discuss tactics, without even looking at my army you blindly suggest a item, blastered standard is a very common thing in my lists for start however you can only protect one unit with this item. I am interested in hearing exactly why dwarfs are a static army, M isn't the issue it was in 7th nor is getting the charge like it was in 7th.

If I was to go through the Dwarf army book I wonder how many units I would find with WS5, longbeards at 13pts with a great weapon seem like a bargain to me (core btw), hammerers 12pts, stubborn, again WS5 with great weapons, Ironbreakers, actually to me it looks like you could have a rather nice elite infantry army backed up by a few ranged units. backed up by some brilliant magic defense, lord characcters that cost the same as my heroes which would still be able to hold their own.

You know what I think, I think someone told you dwarfs are a static army and thus how thats how they remained in you eyes, they seem to me like they have all the tools to make a decent balanced army.

eyescrossed
01-12-2010, 05:27
My bad, I meant against Warriors of Chaos. They cannot win if they only engage them in combat or kill three or four Warriors out of a unit before it hits their lines. My friend plays Dwarfs. He takes hardly any shooting so that it's funner for other people. I play Warriors of Chaos. He's never beaten my Warriors with his Dwarfs.

They're just anecdotes, but that's my experience.

logan054
01-12-2010, 05:38
But I am not saying you only engage them in combat?? I just saying you don't have to sit on the board edge for 5 turns to beat a army like WoC, especially with a army like dwarfs that does have some good elite units. It does come down to unit size, considering a chaos warrior fully equipped is 17pts you should be able to get a large number of dwarfs for the same points, if its a pick up game and the WoC player has taken a lvl4 sorcerer they are going to have 300pts + that does little in the game.

40 dwarf warriors with great weapons deployed as a horde should be able to kill 8 chaos warriors in the first round of combat, if you have killed 4 from ranged thats 12 gone, in a lot of cases thats just a front rank for the following turn which you should be able to wipe out, if the dwarf unit was WS5 it would take about equal loses but win on static combat res.

Maybe your friend is just doing something wrong, maybe you have massive units of warriors, we don't all play the same so I don't find you example all that helpful.

mistrmoon
01-12-2010, 06:12
For a start you playing 8th ed, 8th ed is move forward, 6 dice a spell of doom, repeat until you win, so the statergy you talk about it complete bull,


This sounds like part of your problem if this is seriously how you play fantasy then it sounds like it doesn't matter all your games will be boring.




You know what I think, I think someone told you dwarfs are a static army and thus how thats how they remained in you eyes, they seem to me like they have all the tools to make a decent balanced army.

I play dwarfs quite frequently and i always advance, except against a pure close combat army like warriors. Firstly, why should I? I have the advantage at range why should i fling my units of combat troops into the meat grinder prematurely, this is just smart tactics. (Note: there is a difference between 'hanging back' and 'deploying on your board edge and not budging')

It's true dwarfs are decent in combat now but take a couple things into account.

1) dwarf players are so used to being **** on in combat by everything better then night goblins that they are used to having to sit back, it used to be the only way they had a chance of winning. After the big three came out in 7th (DoC, DE, VC) people even stopped frowning on thorek. I played a max cheese gunline one day for funsies and the guy i played took it with a smile and admitted it was the only way for dwarfs to play against VC in 7th and have a chance.

2)dwarfs will not beat warriors in combat. point for point it won't happen. The amount of damage a marauder flail horde can put out is horrendous, even ironbreakers don't want to fight that.

3) Our lords are more points then your heroes, they are also slow, they generally don't get to pick their fights (not as bad in 8th). Also our characters tend to go 2 ways tanker or fighter making a blend i find is generally not that effective.

4) Why not put some pressure back on the dwarfs? hell cannons are amazing in this edition.

5) It's not just losing fights head on that is a problem, dwarfs lack fast units like cav so anytime our opponents have faster units it makes it trickier to flank guard.



If I was to go through the Dwarf army book I wonder how many units I would find with WS5, longbeards at 13pts with a great weapon seem like a bargain to me (core btw), hammerers 12pts, stubborn, again WS5 with great weapons, Ironbreakers, actually to me it looks like you could have a rather nice elite infantry army backed up by a few ranged units. backed up by some brilliant magic defense, lord characcters that cost the same as my heroes which would still be able to hold their own.


so how many points are we playing? 3k? for a unit of dwarfs to be effective it needs to be a bare minimum of 20, most dwarf players say 25. A 13 point longbeard is assuming no shield and your 17 point warrior i assume is halberd and shield so these values are a bit misleading. it should be 14 and 17 or 13 and 16. for those three points the WOC will beat the tar out of that dwarf. the three points will mean another dwarf for every 4-5 warriors, probably won't help enough.

also you need a unit of warriors or a lord to take a unit of longbeards so there are some more points.

Hammerers are great.

Iron breakers are over rated, I've used them, they are that unit that never performs as well as they look like they should on paper.

a few ranged units is pricey, dwarf thunderers are 14 points each....as much as a longbeard with a shield and a great weapon.....they go up to 15 if you want shields.

'Brilliant magic defense' involves buying wizards that can't cast spells, yes its effective but you'll never stop everything and as you pointed out the magic phase is now apparently throw six dice at a doom spell so alot of the time you can spend 300 points and get no return and unlike wizards if i run into a magicless army all my runesmith goodness is useless.

TL;DR? (don't blame you)

Dwarfs can fight in combat but not as well as warriors, and it is tactically to our advantage to shoot, running into a meatgrinder isn't fun for the dwarf player.

eyescrossed
01-12-2010, 06:53
But I am not saying you only engage them in combat?? I just saying you don't have to sit on the board edge for 5 turns to beat a army like WoC, especially with a army like dwarfs that does have some good elite units.
Then what? Dwarfs have no baiting or sacrificial units besides the Gyrocopter, which is pretty costly for a sacrificial unit and takes up Rare points. It's either sit back or get into combat. The latter is a no-go until the Warriors are whittled down.



It does come down to unit size, considering a chaos warrior fully equipped is 17pts you should be able to get a large number of dwarfs for the same points, if its a pick up game and the WoC player has taken a lvl4 sorcerer they are going to have 300pts + that does little in the game.
I dunno, I only use 16 points Warriors; halberds OR shields. Dunno anyone who uses both.

As mistrmoon said, you don't get many extra Dwarfs for the Warriors.

That, and what if the WoC player doesn't take a Lvl4? What if they don't take any magic? Even if the player takes a Lvl2 (which I have done once), the points the Dwarf player has spent on magic defense is over the top, and doesn't work if you IF a spell.



40 dwarf warriors with great weapons deployed as a horde should be able to kill 8 chaos warriors in the first round of combat, if you have killed 4 from ranged thats 12 gone, in a lot of cases thats just a front rank for the following turn which you should be able to wipe out, if the dwarf unit was WS5 it would take about equal loses but win on static combat res.
How much do those 40 Warriors cost? They'll lose against great weapon/flail Khorne Marauders, too.

But okay, a unit I field often; 18 Warriors with Mark of Tzeentch, SB/musician, shields and War Banner, 6 wide.

Nobody charging.

Warriors:
18 attacks, 12 hit, 6 wounds, 1 saved from 6+ AS - 5 dead.

Dwarfs:
27 attacks, 13.5 hit, 9 wounds, 3 saved from 5+ AS and another 2 saved from the ward - 4 dead.

Not bad, not bad. Dunno where you got the 8 dead from, though. It's 6 with a shield and no MoT.



Maybe your friend is just doing something wrong, maybe you have massive units of warriors, we don't all play the same so I don't find you example all that helpful.
18 Warriors is hardly massive, and my friend has played Dwarfs for 3 years :p

No, we don't all play the same, but what I've said holds true for anyone unless they field extremely strange WoC armies.

logan054
01-12-2010, 07:57
This sounds like part of your problem if this is seriously how you play fantasy then it sounds like it doesn't matter all your games will be boring.

You keep making all these false assumptions, this is what I have seen pretty much everyone who plays warhammer does, I will 6 dice a spell if I am using my level 2 and I have say fireball and flaming sword, If I have a level 4 I will spread my dice.


I play dwarfs quite frequently and i always advance, except against a pure close combat army like warriors. Firstly, why should I? I have the advantage at range why should i fling my units of combat troops into the meat grinder prematurely, this is just smart tactics. (Note: there is a difference between 'hanging back' and 'deploying on your board edge and not budging')

You keep using words like fling and rush, why is this, did I at some point say "run you units towards me", this is the thing for me, when I head out for a game of warhammer I want to spend my time playing a game that I feel is enjoyable. I do not enjoy playing against people who use gunlines, this might surprise you but I am not alone in this. I agree that their is a difference between hanging back and turtling in the corner, my issue is with people who spend the whole game who turtle.


1) dwarf players are so used to being **** on in combat by everything better then night goblins that they are used to having to sit back, it used to be the only way they had a chance of winning. After the big three came out in 7th (DoC, DE, VC) people even stopped frowning on thorek. I played a max cheese gunline one day for funsies and the guy i played took it with a smile and admitted it was the only way for dwarfs to play against VC in 7th and have a chance.

Everyone suffered against the big 3 in 7th ed, so this really is not a good excuse


2)dwarfs will not beat warriors in combat. point for point it won't happen. The amount of damage a marauder flail horde can put out is horrendous, even ironbreakers don't want to fight that.


Flail horde? who the hell uses a flail horde? most people I have seen will use great weapons and MoK, I agree marauders are amazing for the points if they make it across the table, a couple of rock lobbers will seriously cut those numbers. Again I have no issue with this, the issue is when I am over half way through the game and your still debating that first move.

40 Dwarfs with GW vs 18 CW with MoK + Halberds (both fullcommand)

CW 6x3

CW: 25 attacks ->16.66 hits -> 11.11 dead
Dwarfs: 30 attacks -> 15 hits -> 10 wounds -> 1.6 saves

Combat res CW: 12 (13 if charge)
Dwarfs: 11

Dwarfs are stubborn, guess they wont be running

10 CW: 22 attacks -> 14.66 hits -> 9.7 dead
19 Dwarfs: 20 attacks -> 6.66 wounds -> 1.1 saves

CW: 11
Dwarfs: 7

The dwarfs lose again, the are stubborn however they are now only facing 3 chaos warriors, guess those guys are gona be very dead ;)

So thats your core vs core, because of the price difference your going to win the war of attrition.


3) Our lords are more points then your heroes, they are also slow, they generally don't get to pick their fights (not as bad in 8th). Also our characters tend to go 2 ways tanker or fighter making a blend i find is generally not that effective.

Our characters including wizards have to issue challenges, sure you don'y get to pick your fights per say but if you only have 3 big combat blocks I don't really a huge amount of choice as to what I can fight either.


4) Why not put some pressure back on the dwarfs? hell cannons are amazing in this edition.

Who said I don't, they doesn't change the fact I dislike like playing against armies that turtle.


5) It's not just losing fights head on that is a problem, dwarfs lack fast units like cav so anytime our opponents have faster units it makes it trickier to flank guard.

They do however have the tools to deal with these, cav have been weakened a lot this edition with step up and stedfast.


so how many points are we playing? 3k? for a unit of dwarfs to be effective it needs to be a bare minimum of 20, most dwarf players say 25. A 13 point longbeard is assuming no shield and your 17 point warrior i assume is halberd and shield so these values are a bit misleading. it should be 14 and 17 or 13 and 16. for those three points the WOC will beat the tar out of that dwarf. the three points will mean another dwarf for every 4-5 warriors, probably won't help enough.

Problem with a unit of 25 models is that it dosnt take advantage of any of the rules that allow them to beat elite infantry, especially in a 5x5 formation. You need attacks to win combats, it hardly as if you deny a unit of 18 CW any attacks, you simply deny yourself those attacks, would not a unit of 30 be useful 10x3? this actually helps even out the attacks a hell of a lot.


also you need a unit of warriors or a lord to take a unit of longbeards so there are some more points.

Yeah I was reading that, I think with this mind I wouldnt bother and just take hammerers, I used to play against a dwarf infantry army in 7th ed before I moved, was great fun, I would say my win ratio was about 50%


Iron breakers are over rated, I've used them, they are that unit that never performs as well as they look like they should on paper.

I dont know, cheaper than CW, smaller bases, similar stats (just slower)


a few ranged units is pricey, dwarf thunderers are 14 points each....as much as a longbeard with a shield and a great weapon.....they go up to 15 if you want shields.

They are also effectively BS4 with a handgun, T4 and a 5+ save, I thought you guys had crossbows, cannons, grudgethrowers, organ guns

eyescrossed
01-12-2010, 08:31
Don't Ironbreakers have Str3, or am I remembering incorrectly?

You're also deliberately giving the Dwarfs a favourable situation by sending a unit that has low survivability (for WoC) agianst a unit that eats them for breakfast. Against those GW Warriors, I would just send my Marauders towards them.

TrojanWolf
01-12-2010, 08:39
Don't Ironbreakers have Str3, or am I remembering incorrectly?

You're also deliberately giving the Dwarfs a favourable situation by sending a unit that has low survivability (for WoC) agianst a unit that eats them for breakfast. Against those GW Warriors, I would just send my Marauders towards them.

S4 for Ironbreakers. I'm pretty sure the only special unit for dwarfs that isn't artillery crew that has S3 is Slayers, and they don't particularly care about that either.

eyescrossed
01-12-2010, 09:12
Ahh, okay.

logan054
01-12-2010, 09:56
Don't Ironbreakers have Str3, or am I remembering incorrectly?

You're also deliberately giving the Dwarfs a favourable situation by sending a unit that has low survivability (for WoC) against a unit that eats them for breakfast. Against those GW Warriors, I would just send my Marauders towards them.

Since when was a unit of Chaos warriors low survivability? I have used one of the hardest hitting units in the army, people tend to use halberds over great weapons simple because they still get to strike at I5. I have used Basic Dwarf warriors with great weapons (strength 5 in total), I would imagine every dwarf player gives their dwarfs great weapons these days. Marauders are not more surviable, they do slight more damaged (2 wounds) but take 3 more wounds. The Chaos warriors actually constantly win combat if you notice while the marauders will lose, all the dwarf unit needs is to charge or have +1 combat res and the marauder will lose, lose frenzy and 10 attacks and thus constantly lose combat against the dwarfs.



As mistrmoon said, you don't get many extra Dwarfs for the Warriors.

Actually you get 36 Dwarf warriors without shields vs 18 Warriors with halberds, I made the unit 40 because lets be honest, whos going to use a unit of 36 dwarfs


That, and what if the WoC player doesn't take a Lvl4? What if they don't take any magic? Even if the player takes a Lvl2 (which I have done once), the points the Dwarf player has spent on magic defense is over the top, and doesn't work if you IF a spell.

How many WoC players do you know who don't take some sort of magic? hell a lvl2 still costs me around 200pst, I take 3rd eye so I guess I have paid for a item I can't use, this is a long game of what if I did this and made this choice invalid, I am simply listing the pros and cons of the army.




How much do those 40 Warriors cost? They'll lose against great weapon/flail Khorne Marauders, too.

If it is flails the marauders will lose, after the first turn they are strength 3, dwarfs are still strength 5, a unit of dwarfs with great weapons kill roughly the same amount of models as a unit of Khorne maraders, simply because the dwarfs kill on 2+ while the marauders kill on a 3+


Warriors:
18 attacks, 12 hit, 6 wounds, 1 saved from 6+ AS - 5 dead.

Dwarfs:
27 attacks, 13.5 hit, 9 wounds, 3 saved from 5+ AS and another 2 saved from the ward - 4 dead.

Not bad, not bad. Dunno where you got the 8 dead from, though. It's 6 with a shield and no MoT.

Erm because Khorne warriors with MoK and halberd only get a 6+ save ;) something to note about that Tzeentch unit, it actually loses combat and will lose combat every turn. 5 dead dwarfs = 50pts (55pts with shields), 4 dead warriors = 64pts + mark, so if the dwarfs charge then they lose lose by 3, leadership 5(dwarf still have 3 ranks ;) ), personally I use my tzeentch warriors as a unit of 20 usually hiding a wizard.






18 Warriors is hardly massive, and my friend has played Dwarfs

18 CW with MoK, halberds, shields and fullcommand is also 371pts ;)


No, we don't all play the same, but what I've said holds true for anyone unless they field extremely strange WoC armies.

Wierd, last time I posted a WoC list here I was told it was a very competitive list, maybe you can use a WoC army in more than one way successfully ;)

Mbarotzo
01-12-2010, 09:58
when you have a really balance wood elves army against. Scary **** my friends

bert n ernie
01-12-2010, 10:58
I'm wondering if something is being missed in this Dwarf Vs WoC discussion.
Didn't Logan054 mention that once he reaches combat with a few units the other person concedes. Surely this isn't to do with who is winning, but who is being a good sport. If I play a dwarf player where I spend 3 turns crossing the field being shot at the least they could do is take it like a man when I get into combat, and (especially in 8th) try and at least make a draw out of it.

Recently I tried out a Tomb King shooty list against a friend. I shot out his Abomination, Plague furnace, Doomwheel and really messed up some other units. He then got a unit with his assassin into combat with my HLP unit. If I had given up there and then, he would have had no satisfaction in continuing the narrative, nor any satisfaction of victory. It's a hollow victory indeed if all you have to do is reach combat and the player(not the army) folds.
He would have ripped me a new one if I had given up. It ended up a hard fought draw that we both enjoyed right up until the end of turn 6.
It seems that this is more of a missing ingredient than what mixture of armies to use.

logan054
01-12-2010, 11:20
Yeah that is part of the issue, I find a lot of the time people know its all over and just call it and you like "well that was worth a hour or two of my time", win or lose against a army that just sits back I don't usually find I enjoy the experience which is why I don't like to play against such list, I find it comparable to doing the dishes, you do it if you have to but if you can find a excuse to do something else you will.

Like the example bert gave, when I use my VC I can imagine a lot of people would be pretty annoyed if I just ended the game because vampire died.

sssk
01-12-2010, 14:08
Yeah, I think conceding should be reserved for one thing and one thing alone (which I will illustrate with an example).

you have 3 hours set aside to play a 2000 point game (nice relaxed game), but after 1 hour your army is in tatters, and has only hurt a unit or two of the enemy. Then I think it's fair enough to say "ok, I concede, let's start afresh, and have a quick 2 hour game".

However, if the first game has gone for an hour and both armies have been bashed about, regardless of what "is definitely about to happen" (ie if a big killy unit is poised to sweep down your line, destroying everything in its path) you surely have to continue anyway as this fickle game could easily swing either way.

Caitsidhe
01-12-2010, 14:15
Yeah that is part of the issue, I find a lot of the time people know its all over and just call it and you like "well that was worth a hour or two of my time", win or lose against a army that just sits back I don't usually find I enjoy the experience which is why I don't like to play against such list, I find it comparable to doing the dishes, you do it if you have to but if you can find a excuse to do something else you will.

The problem with this attitude is that not all armies are setup to fight the battle the way YOU like it. I'm sure they don't like playing your lists either which play against their strengths. They do it for you. You do it for them. That is how our hobby is a community.

logan054
01-12-2010, 14:38
The problem with this attitude is that not all armies are setup to fight the battle the way YOU like it. I'm sure they don't like playing your lists either which play against their strengths. They do it for you. You do it for them. That is how our hobby is a community.

Well I don't like playing against a persons list and they don't like playing against mine it seems like I am doing us both a favor ;) Its a hobby, it should be fun, I am not going to make a chore out of something I enjoy.

SilasOfTheLambs
01-12-2010, 14:59
An optimized skaven list cannot be beaten by any reasonable means (speaking from an empire point of view).

As for actual enjoyment of the game, I hate life toadstars, as well as point denial units in general (I don't take steam tanks for that reason). Players should, IMO, take units with which they intend killing the enemy, not units which will just hang around on their stubborn re-rollable 10 and hope you don't manage to kill the salamanders and win.

I'll throw in that I hate playing against gunline dwarfs, as well as playing AS gunline dwarfs. It's boring in both directions.

I hate playing against WoC lists with 3+ wards on flying tz sorcerors. Can't shoot him, can't catch him to kill him in combat, and can't just ignore him and tank infernal gateway all day long. Almost anything else in the WoC book, practically everybody has some kind of an answer for, but not that guy.

I also hate playing against any army containing the following named characters: Teclis, Skulltaker, Archaon, Thorek. These guys break any game they're in by ignoring the basic rules of how the game is played.

I agree with previous posters, though... almost any of these lists could, on occasion, be fun to play against. it's really about the opponent.

Caitsidhe
01-12-2010, 15:09
Well I don't like playing against a persons list and they don't like playing against mine it seems like I am doing us both a favor ;) Its a hobby, it should be fun, I am not going to make a chore out of something I enjoy.

In other words, you don't care about anyone but you. It is unlikely that the person whose list you don't like is unhappy about yours. He/she probably likes fighting your list because against it he/she has a chance. The problem with your attitude is it is bad for the community. Let me elaborate:

1. You will only play against those lists that play YOUR way. This denies games to a certain percentage of people. You have decided that they don't merit games in your opinion. Their options are less. You are likewise taking more games from them by playing someone else who might have been less selfish.

2. Perhaps they (or others) follow your example. Soon you don't have a fully functioning community but little semi-exclusive groups. New people find themselves more or less at odds with this.

3. Tournaments come up and you are fighting the people you won't normally fight and thus whine even MORE because it seems impossible to fight them. It isn't but you don't have the practice, haven't had to come up with tactics for it, and thus it reinforces your delusion of how unfair or unfun the matches will (or are) be.

I could go on. This is a Hobby; but it is a hobby that is supported and functions on the basis of community. We can only get games on a regular basis if there are people willing to play. I play matches against anyone who asks. I am likewise able to get games whenever I ask.

logan054
01-12-2010, 16:41
In other words, you don't care about anyone but you. It is unlikely that the person whose list you don't like is unhappy about yours. He/she probably likes fighting your list because against it he/she has a chance. The problem with your attitude is it is bad for the community. Let me elaborate:

Its interesting that you say about my selfish attitude, how is this ant different than using a army in such a way that it drains all the enjoyment from the game. Obviously your desire to win is more important than my desire to have a enjoyable game, how is this not selfish? so you can be as selfish as you like ingame.


1. You will only play against those lists that play YOUR way. This denies games to a certain percentage of people. You have decided that they don't merit games in your opinion. Their options are less. You are likewise taking more games from them by playing someone else who might have been less selfish.

Yes I have decided that a certain style of gaming does not fit into my little box of what I like, this again because the player has decided that winning the game is more important than enjoying the game. I am taking no games away from anyone, if they getting less games it is because of their own actions and how they have chosen to play the game


2. Perhaps they (or others) follow your example. Soon you don't have a fully functioning community but little semi-exclusive groups. New people find themselves more or less at odds with this.

No I have started a revolution, blimey, I am one charismatic guy hey!


3. Tournaments come up and you are fighting the people you won't normally fight and thus whine even MORE because it seems impossible to fight them. It isn't but you don't have the practice, haven't had to come up with tactics for it, and thus it reinforces your delusion of how unfair or unfun the matches will (or are) be.

I think I might have to write this in bold capital letters, I have repeated it so many times yet people such as yourself don't seem to understand. ITS NOT ABOUT BEING UNABLE TO DEFEAT A ARMY, IT IS ABOUT HOW ENJOYABLE THE GAME IS. I think some of you people are seriously deluded, people don't necessary dislike fighting a army because its hard to defeat, they dislike fighting a army because of how boring the game is. I'm sure certain people feel that way about any of my armies for various different reasons. That is the persons concerned choice, however people such as yourself I actually feel guilty if my army has made a game boring or unfun, I have a tendency to alter me list so both parties can enjoy the game.

arthurfallz
01-12-2010, 17:19
@Logan054
I don't disagree that running up to a firing line can be frustrating as all heck, and doesn't have the feel of a real battle, but I think this is the trouble. A dwarf firing line can make you feel like you're the British charging into a WWI German machinegun line, and that's about as epic and interesting as WWI*.

I don't know the solution to it. If I choose to play a Dwarf firing line, for example, I'm not going to move those dwarves, and I'm not going to move my dwarf warriors in their way (there are some tactics you have to employ when you have Move or Shoot). You could offer hills to the dwarf player as a suggestion as to how they could make the game more interesting (their gunners on hills will have better LOS, encouraging them to send out the warriors).

Also, I would suggest different scenarios as the solution here. If you want battles that don't involve your models trying to rush across a tabletop towards a firing line, make the fight over a watchtower or other central element, and make sure to set up some terrain to your advantage (as a side note, what kind of terrain rules are you using in your games?).

You obviously don't have an allergy to the gunfire or the units, just the irritation of playing a game like this. If the opponents using said tactic can't agree that it's boring to play over and over and shake it up, you'll either have to suffer or stop playing with them. Myself I quickly determined (in 7th ed.) how annoying to fight a dwarf firing line would be and didn't go in that direction. Not very sporting.

*No disprespect to those who served and died in WWI naturally, but it was a war that managed to make war uglier than it already was.

logan054
01-12-2010, 17:37
To be honest I haven't played against a gunline in some time so its not so much of a issue at the moment, recently when I have played its been down GW and terrain is take it or leave it. Usually on my board one person setups, we have a fiddle and roll for table edges.

I actually would love to play missions however a lot of people can't be bothered, when you do play I find you both forget about it anyways :(

Sadly we have no solution to gunlines, you can either play against them or not, me I wont bother unless I am actually forced into it.

Caitsidhe
01-12-2010, 17:41
Its interesting that you say about my selfish attitude, how is this ant different than using a army in such a way that it drains all the enjoyment from the game. Obviously your desire to win is more important than my desire to have a enjoyable game, how is this not selfish? so you can be as selfish as you like ingame.

This is a game of war. Both participants know that coming in. The pleasure in the hobby is the challenge. Some things are hard. Life is hard. Warriors take the good with the bad and do not turn aside from challenges. Gun lines (or bow lines) are a staple of warfare. They have just as much to add to the game as close combat. Figuring out how to fight against them, what lumps to take and what to sacrifice is part of the tactics. There is nothing selfish about wanting to win. Both players want to win. There is something selfish about saying, "unless you play my way, under my rules, in a way that benefits only me... screw you guys... I'm going home." Cartman may be funny but he never has been cool.


Yes I have decided that a certain style of gaming does not fit into my little box of what I like, this again because the player has decided that winning the game is more important than enjoying the game. I am taking no games away from anyone, if they getting less games it is because of their own actions and how they have chosen to play the game

You are deluding yourself. It isn't the other player that has decided that. It is you. We lie best when we lie to ourselves. I won't belabor this because you won't see it no matter how plain it is to anyone else.


I think I might have to write this in bold capital letters, I have repeated it so many times yet people such as yourself don't seem to understand. ITS NOT ABOUT BEING UNABLE TO DEFEAT A ARMY, IT IS ABOUT HOW ENJOYABLE THE GAME IS. I think some of you people are seriously deluded, people don't necessary dislike fighting a army because its hard to defeat, they dislike fighting a army because of how boring the game is. I'm sure certain people feel that way about any of my armies for various different reasons. That is the persons concerned choice, however people such as yourself I actually feel guilty if my army has made a game boring or unfun, I have a tendency to alter me list so both parties can enjoy the game.

Exactly how is a big bash of close combat in the center and rolling dice any different than two distinct units rolling dice? It isn't. It is boring to you because it is to your detriment, nothing more and nothing less. I have played your type many, many times. You always sing the same tune. You are also the worst sports. You do a long song and dance how you care about how fun the game is for everyone and when the rubber hits the road you are really only concerned with how fun it is for you. I suppose it is possible you are different from every OTHER person I have heard saying exactly the same things you say, but I doubt it.

arthurfallz
01-12-2010, 18:02
I actually would love to play missions however a lot of people can't be bothered, when you do play I find you both forget about it anyways :(

I think they need to be weighted more point-wise, and some better time limits set down (perhaps reinforcement/unit regeneration could help make people take them seriously).

logan054
01-12-2010, 18:21
This is a game of war. Both participants know that coming in. The pleasure in the hobby is the challenge. Some things are hard. Life is hard. Warriors take the good with the bad and do not turn aside from challenges.

Well this is a game of moving toy soliders about while rolling dice, I'm still confused why your bring in this daft words like challenge when talking about fighting a gunline. The problem is that is not a challenge to play, and I mean come on, what the hell, life is hard? its a flipping game, its not like some proving ground on manhood.



You are deluding yourself. It isn't the other player that has decided that. It is you. We lie best when we lie to ourselves. I won't belabor this because you won't see it no matter how plain it is to anyone else.

Obviously you didn't read my post properly, I clearly said I have decided I didn't want to play a game outside of my small little box of acceptable. I am interested in your explanation as to how the other person who has bought and designed a army in a certain way has not decided on a certain style of game.


Exactly how is a big bash of close combat in the center and rolling dice any different than two distinct units rolling dice? It isn't.

Sorry this part of your post made me laugh, you actually don't have a clue, have you ever considered the fun part is the movement, you know, trying to outmaneuver your opponent. The enjoyment you get from this is significantly reduced when the army is very static or when you are just rushing forward to engage as quickly as possible.

Whats this rubbish "I have played your type before", you don't know a thing about me, I really would presume to know the type of person I am, I will weaken my army if I play someone again and crushed, I will continue to do so until we have a fun game because that is what matters. If I crush someone I will also apologize because you know what, I feel guilty for giving someone a bad gaming experience.


I think they need to be weighted more point-wise, and some better time limits set down (perhaps reinforcement/unit regeneration could help make people take them seriously).

I think you need a lot more than that, you need missions more like in 40k, missions that rely more on core unit capturing objectives, blood and glory I think things like night fighting would be cool.

arthurfallz
01-12-2010, 18:40
I think you need a lot more than that, you need missions more like in 40k, missions that rely more on core unit capturing objectives, blood and glory I think things like night fighting would be cool.

That is doable, though it sounds to me like another thread (if there isn't a custome scenario thread already). I don't play 40k (can't afford to get into another, and if I did it would be War of the Ring), so I don't know how their scenario's differ. Would you be able to `port them?

Caitsidhe
01-12-2010, 18:48
Well this is a game of moving toy soliders about while rolling dice, I'm still confused why your bring in this daft words like challenge when talking about fighting a gunline. The problem is that is not a challenge to play, and I mean come on, what the hell, life is hard? its a flipping game, its not like some proving ground on manhood.

I've been on both sides of the gun line. They are both challenging. Reaching those dwarves... dug in like Alabama ticks... is a great challenge. Managing to stop the relentless march of WoC with Wood Elves shooting is likewise far harder than it looks. Gun lines are a challenge to play against. They are likewise a challenge to do properly. Perhaps the most exciting battle in your history, the Battle of Agincourt was a gun line battle. As to your other comment, all of life is a proving ground of manhood or character. I have found that how someone plays is also how they act in other matters.


Obviously you didn't read my post properly, I clearly said I have decided I didn't want to play a game outside of my small little box of acceptable. I am interested in your explanation as to how the other person who has bought and designed a army in a certain way has not decided on a certain style of game.

I understood you perfectly. The other person has only decided on how he is to fight his battle, not how you are to fight yours. Neither of you has any control of the myriad of other factors that go into the fight. Avoiding the challenge because it is "outside your small, little box of acceptable" is your call, not the other players. That person is showing up to play. You are the one choosing who is worthy and who is not.


Sorry this part of your post made me laugh, you actually don't have a clue, have you ever considered the fun part is the movement, you know, trying to outmaneuver your opponent. The enjoyment you get from this is significantly reduced when the army is very static or when you are just rushing forward to engage as quickly as possible.

I wish you made me laugh. You don't. I find your attitude contemptible. Even so, it is no skin off my nose. If the movement part is fun for you, I would think you would find it a supreme, fun challenge to try and outmaneuver the gun line. It can be done. It is hard, but then again, that is what makes the game worth playing. No matter how you try to say it, it all amounts to the same thing. This is all about you.


Whats this rubbish "I have played your type before", you don't know a thing about me, I really would presume to know the type of person I am, I will weaken my army if I play someone again and crushed, I will continue to do so until we have a fun game because that is what matters. If I crush someone I will also apologize because you know what, I feel guilty for giving someone a bad gaming experience.

I never apologize to someone I crush. In fact, I rather think they owe me an apology for not giving me their best, for wasting several hours of my time with a game that clearly didn't challenge me. I don't say that to them, but that is what I'm thinking. I'm embarrassed for them and I don't like them putting me in that position. If they had a bad gaming experience, they have no one to blame but themselves. I don't enjoy crushing anyone. I continue on to let them get their game and learn from it what they can. What I want are a real games. We are very different it seems.

tcklein
01-12-2010, 18:54
40k missions are pretty basic. You roll on 2 tables. First one determines objective, second one determines deployment.

Objective types are basically as follows.

1. Hold strategic points on the board at the end of the game.
2. Defend your base while trying to take you opponent's base
3. Kill more units (not points value. Just whole units)

It should be noted that only Troop choices (equivilant to core) can hold objectives, though any unit can contest it.

The deployment zones are as follows

1. 12 inches from long table edge
2. Opposing quarters, at least 12" from table center
3. Table halves, but you only start with 1 HQ choice and 2 troop choices. The rest come in from your long edge like reserves.

logan054
01-12-2010, 21:12
That is doable, though it sounds to me like another thread (if there isn't a custome scenario thread already). I don't play 40k (can't afford to get into another, and if I did it would be War of the Ring), so I don't know how their scenario's differ. Would you be able to `port them?

I play 40k very rarely but I think the missions offer something which warhammer is missing which would try and promote more balanced lists capable of performing in multiple phases. Sadly with the very limited mission we have warhammer is still very much max out on 1-2 phases and hope for the best. You might be able to port them, I would have to take a better look at the, honestly I haven't played 40k in ages, Marines being my army and no real desire to start another really put me off playing.


I've been on both sides of the gun line. They are both challenging. Reaching those dwarves... dug in like Alabama ticks... is a great challenge. Managing to stop the relentless march of WoC with Wood Elves shooting is likewise far harder than it looks. Gun lines are a challenge to play against. They are likewise a challenge to do properly. Perhaps the most exciting battle in your history, the Battle of Agincourt was a gun line battle. As to your other comment, all of life is a proving ground of manhood or character. I have found that how someone plays is also how they act in other matters.

Been on both sides myself, I can't use a gunline, the play style is far to much like my marine army which tends to collect dust, I personally have never found any challenge in playing against a gunline, with a WE list the only issue I have come across in the past are forest spirits, haven't played them in 8th but they did get very hard, perhaps my idea of what a challenge consist of very different to yours, challenges tend to be difficult, gunlines are not. All of life is a proving ground, how on earth is pushing toy soldiers about and rolling dice a proving ground??


I understood you perfectly. The other person has only decided on how he is to fight his battle, not how you are to fight yours. Neither of you has any control of the myriad of other factors that go into the fight. Avoiding the challenge because it is "outside your small, little box of acceptable" is your call, not the other players. That person is showing up to play. You are the one choosing who is worthy and who is not.

Again you use the term challenge, I am still not seeing it, I think you know the word I will use for the experience ;)


I wish you made me laugh. You don't. I find your attitude contemptible. Even so, it is no skin off my nose. If the movement part is fun for you, I would think you would find it a supreme, fun challenge to try and outmaneuver the gun line. It can be done. It is hard, but then again, that is what makes the game worth playing. No matter how you try to say it, it all amounts to the same thing. This is all about you.

I wish I gave a damn about how you found my attitude, I stopped caring after your lost post with going on about "I know you type", still you continue to insist on how hard and challenging a gunline is, I am yet to see this, I suppose however if you play against a gunline with a small amount of troops due to spending half your points on characters it can be, the rest of us who invest more points in troops don't have the issue of getting across the table.


I never apologize to someone I crush. In fact, I rather think they owe me an apology for not giving me their best, for wasting several hours of my time with a game that clearly didn't challenge me. I don't say that to them, but that is what I'm thinking. I'm embarrassed for them and I don't like them putting me in that position. If they had a bad gaming experience, they have no one to blame but themselves. I don't enjoy crushing anyone. I continue on to let them get their game and learn from it what they can. What I want are a real games. We are very different it seems.

Yet you say people like me are poor sports, people such as yourself really are the problem with the hobby, you have been going on about how selfish I am but look at your post, you don't like having your time wasted, you feel embarrassed for them, its their own fault, truth be told here a lot of people don't learn from being crushed, they learn from advise . The funny people such as yourself seem unable to understand is you can have a real game if you handicap yourself, this is actually how you become a better player, I guess comes down to if you think list construction makes you a good player or being able to pick up and random army and win.

VoodooJanus
01-12-2010, 21:19
This, however, is your own problem. If your interest declines with your victories, you might not have the right personality for this kind of game.


That's a fair assumption, but I've found that my losses are due more to army mis-match than anything else. My interest is waning also due to the fact that I have one 'realistically competitive' build (darn you 6th edition WE book) that gets pretty boring after a while. I'm still collecting models and all that, I wouldn't stop the hobby entirely as I derive too much joy from the painting + building aspect.

I tried to start a new army, but it felt wrong, so I'm mostly just holding out on playing exclusively WH (which was what I did until fairly recently) until a new army book comes out. Plus, I have to give my newly boosted DE anarchist kabal a spin.

Caitsidhe
01-12-2010, 21:53
Yet you say people like me are poor sports, people such as yourself really are the problem with the hobby, you have been going on about how selfish I am but look at your post, you don't like having your time wasted, you feel embarrassed for them, its their own fault, truth be told here a lot of people don't learn from being crushed, they learn from advise . The funny people such as yourself seem unable to understand is you can have a real game if you handicap yourself, this is actually how you become a better player, I guess comes down to if you think list construction makes you a good player or being able to pick up and random army and win.

I happen to think winning is an entire package of tactics, strategy, list construction, and basic psychology. You learn a great deal by being crushed. My approach to strategic war games is the same as my approach to Fencing (my sport). I seek out the best. I take them on over and over again and get my butt handed to me until I learn. When I beat that person consistently over and over, I move on. Thus, I believe I am doing people a favor by not being condescending and dumbing down my game for them. I am giving them my best so they can improve. I wouldn't want anything by my opponent's best game, so I'm not going to insult anyone and give them anything short of my best.

I often play with a handicap. That is neither here nor there. My issue is with your "screw you guys... I'm going home" Cartman attitude. It is selfish. It is bad for the hobby. In my venue, people who pull that kind of attitude don't get games from anyone. The expectation is that we will all play with anyone. This means I suffer through dull games with inferior opponents so they can learn... and I smile and pretend I'm spellbound while I do it. It means that some of our WoC (a push button army if ever there was one) have to deal with gun lines. They do it because they believe they should also GIVE BACK to the hobby and not just take.

Caitsidhe
01-12-2010, 21:57
That's a fair assumption, but I've found that my losses are due more to army mis-match than anything else. My interest is waning also due to the fact that I have one 'realistically competitive' build (darn you 6th edition WE book) that gets pretty boring after a while. I'm still collecting models and all that, I wouldn't stop the hobby entirely as I derive too much joy from the painting + building aspect.

I'm right there with you my friend. I'm a WE player myself. Until we find our new stride, things are going to be difficult but I think we have the tools still and you will start winning if you keep at it.


I tried to start a new army, but it felt wrong, so I'm mostly just holding out on playing exclusively WH (which was what I did until fairly recently) until a new army book comes out. Plus, I have to give my newly boosted DE anarchist kabal a spin.

This is a dangerous plan. It could be years before we get a book. If/when we get it... there might not be that many changes. My advice is to just get into the games for the challenge. Worry about the win/loss ratio later. You will find your stride. That way... if a new book doesn't appear or solve our problems (look at the horrible Beastman book) you will still have honed yourself to a razor's edge.

logan054
01-12-2010, 22:20
I happen to think winning is an entire package of tactics, strategy, list construction, and basic psychology. You learn a great deal by being crushed. My approach to strategic war games is the same as my approach to Fencing (my sport). I seek out the best. I take them on over and over again and get my butt handed to me until I learn. When I beat that person consistently over and over, I move on. Thus, I believe I am doing people a favor by not being condescending and dumbing down my game for them. I am giving them my best so they can improve. I wouldn't want anything by my opponent's best game, so I'm not going to insult anyone and give them anything short of my best.

I often play with a handicap. That is neither here nor there. My issue is with your "screw you guys... I'm going home" Cartman attitude. It is selfish. It is bad for the hobby. In my venue, people who pull that kind of attitude don't get games from anyone. The expectation is that we will all play with anyone. This means I suffer through dull games with inferior opponents so they can learn... and I smile and pretend I'm spellbound while I do it. It means that some of our WoC (a push button army if ever there was one) have to deal with gun lines. They do it because they believe they should also GIVE BACK to the hobby and not just take.

Been and done that and the games becomes super competitive, you get into stupid arguments over loop holes, i really cannot be bothered with that anymore. This is what always happens when playing this way at some point, you welcome to treat warhammer as sport all you want, it simply is not, it frankly is not complex enough to be taken that seriously. If I wanted to play a game like that I would join a chess club or take up a real sport.

But this is the sum of it, I'm just a guy who likes painting models and then using them in a game, I want my game to be fun, I want both players to enjoy, it doesn't bother me what models I have on the table. I am welcome to invest my time and energy how I like, I am sorry if you dislike this but this is how it is.

It is a shame that WoC have become even more of a push button, before 8th ed infantry armies took a bit more to use but sadly I am stuck here, all I can do is try my best to make the army more interesting to play against.

tezdal
02-12-2010, 00:45
I kind of don't like facing other Brets with my Bretonnians, we always end having our knights hang back f while our peasants slaughter each other.

eyescrossed
02-12-2010, 09:51
Since when was a unit of Chaos warriors low survivability? I have used one of the hardest hitting units in the army, people tend to use halberds over great weapons simple because they still get to strike at I5. I have used Basic Dwarf warriors with great weapons (strength 5 in total), I would imagine every dwarf player gives their dwarfs great weapons these days. Marauders are not more surviable, they do slight more damaged (2 wounds) but take 3 more wounds. The Chaos warriors actually constantly win combat if you notice while the marauders will lose, all the dwarf unit needs is to charge or have +1 combat res and the marauder will lose, lose frenzy and 10 attacks and thus constantly lose combat against the dwarfs.
You might like to read the bracketed part of what I said. Low survivability for Warriors of Chaos.

The Khorne Marauder Horde kills about 14 Dwarfs, whereas the Dwarfs kill 12-13 Marauders. Marauders win, especially since there's most likely more of them.

That, and I've never, ever seen a Dwarf player field a Horde of Warriors. Too unwieldy for M3 Dwarfs.



Actually you get 36 Dwarf warriors without shields vs 18 Warriors with halberds, I made the unit 40 because lets be honest, whos going to use a unit of 36 dwarfs
36 Dwarf Warriors with Great Weapons? As you said, nobody takes Warriors without Great Weapons.



How many WoC players do you know who don't take some sort of magic? hell a lvl2 still costs me around 200pst, I take 3rd eye so I guess I have paid for a item I can't use, this is a long game of what if I did this and made this choice invalid, I am simply listing the pros and cons of the army.
I don't take any occasionally. My friend with his mono-Khorne army doesn't. That's about it, though.

Fair enough.



If it is flails the marauders will lose, after the first turn they are strength 3, dwarfs are still strength 5, a unit of dwarfs with great weapons kill roughly the same amount of models as a unit of Khorne maraders, simply because the dwarfs kill on 2+ while the marauders kill on a 3+
Okay then, Great Weapons. Better?

Also, as above, the Dwarfs do NOT kill more Marauders than the Marauders kill Dwarfs.



Erm because Khorne warriors with MoK and halberd only get a 6+ save ;) something to note about that Tzeentch unit, it actually loses combat and will lose combat every turn. 5 dead dwarfs = 50pts (55pts with shields), 4 dead warriors = 64pts + mark, so if the dwarfs charge then they lose lose by 3, leadership 5(dwarf still have 3 ranks ;) ), personally I use my tzeentch warriors as a unit of 20 usually hiding a wizard.
Aren't Nurgle Warriors with the Banner of Rage and halberds generally better?

Again, that's a Horde of Dwarf Warriors.



18 CW with MoK, halberds, shields and fullcommand is also 371pts ;)
When you said "massive", I assumed you meant unit size, not points...



Wierd, last time I posted a WoC list here I was told it was a very competitive list, maybe you can use a WoC army in more than one way successfully ;)
Thanks for taking what I said out of context, dude. Really.

logan054
02-12-2010, 12:22
You might like to read the bracketed part of what I said. Low survivability for Warriors of Chaos.

The Khorne Marauder Horde kills about 14 Dwarfs, whereas the Dwarfs kill 12-13 Marauders. Marauders win, especially since there's most likely more of them.

Actually the dwarfs kill 13.5 while the marauders kill 13.33, M3 isn't the issue it once was, you can also start in a a smaller frontage and reform when you are closer to the enemy.



36 Dwarf Warriors with Great Weapons? As you said, nobody takes Warriors without Great Weapons.

its 36 warriors with great weapons, if you did the maths you would see 36 naked dwarfs are 288pts so obviously they have great weapons as the maths is bashed on them having great weapons.


I don't take any occasionally. My friend with his mono-Khorne army doesn't. That's about it, though.

Fair enough.

That dosnt really answer the question, you answer is " i know this guy down the road and once in a while I don't", heres a better question, apart for dwarfs how many people do you know that don't take some sort of magic.


Okay then, Great Weapons. Better?

Also, as above, the Dwarfs do NOT kill more Marauders than the Marauders kill Dwarfs.

If you want to be exact dwarfs will kill .17 more, if you rounding these off then dwarfs at 13.5 will be be at 14 kills and marauders will be at 13, so I guess it depends on how many ranks each unit has and who charged. With Random charges dwarfs have as much chance of getting the charge as the marauders. Even if the marauders win combat dwarfs are still leadership 9 with easy access to leadership 10. In the 2nd round of combat with the marauders wounds go down to assuming they win) 6.66 as they are now only strength3.


Aren't Nurgle Warriors with the Banner of Rage and halberds generally better?

Again, that's a Horde of Dwarf Warriors.

Only against shooting and WS3 models, we are looking at neither of these so MoN makes no difference whatso ever, it matters against WS3 because it reduces the roll to hit from a 4+ to a 5+.


When you said "massive", I assumed you meant unit size, not points...

Thats the problem with a assumption, they tend to lead to ******* ups


Thanks for taking what I said out of context, dude. Really.

I hardly think so, you seem to be telling me how I have been using my WoC is wrong, I don't think I have taken this out of context at all, this isn't just based on this small segment of you post but the whole thing.

Hjiryon
02-12-2010, 14:20
I love how Warseer never leads to immature bashing and circular dicsussions.

To summarise:
logan wants to play loganhammer, because warhammer is a silly an unbalanced game where his WoC list can bring all the promise of a sound beating, and not get to do it at all, because the rules unfairly promote a playstyle the effectively makes his ineffective.
This, he thinks, makes for a bad game and so he takes it upon himself to change that.

Various other posters point out that loganhammer is a silly game because it means that others can have built an army and be denied the fun in using it, because a rule ("this is stupid!") exists within loganhammer that makes their list useless.

At the end of the day, playing loganhammer is great fun if you agree with logan.
If your local gaming circle thinks differently, then you should make up your local-gaming-circle-hammer instead, since loganhammer is clearly (to you) a silly game that doesn't let you have any fun.
If you're playing in public (tournaments, your local gaming store depending on the atmosphere there and so on) there's a good chance you should probably either ask what sort of whatever-hammer they're playing and go with that, or assume they play warhammer, since that's what the print on the packaging says.

It seems like many people near my area play sort-of-logan-hammer in that gunlines are widely frowned upon. We'll play them, but we have like one dward player - and he doesn't come to play very often. This is an aside, of course.

Also, no offense to logan or anyone else with this post; I simply fail to see how what you're doing in this thread is constructive. :)

The Grim
02-12-2010, 14:57
Also, no offense to logan or anyone else with this post; I simply fail to see how what you're doing in this thread is constructive. :)

What could you expect when the thread title is precisely an incentive to racial hatred?

Dr Bannana
02-12-2010, 19:23
Dwarf Gunlines. The dwarfs are supposed to be brave!!!!!!!!!!!

Now exuse me, as i fly off the handle at the memory of when my 5 man cold one knights unit came up against a organ gun...

Caitsidhe
02-12-2010, 19:50
Dwarf Gunlines. The dwarfs are supposed to be brave!!!!!!!!!!!

Now exuse me, as i fly off the handle at the memory of when my 5 man cold one knights unit came up against a organ gun...

The Dwarf is a brave creature. That has nothing to do with anything. Gun lines are a military tactic, nothing more and nothing less. We all have painful memories of when a unit we like has gotten blasted to kingdom come. Nobody likes to get decimated but that is just the way of a war game.

Games Workshop made them awesome gun line troops. People tend to play to the strength of an army. That strength is often what drew them in the first place. I'm not going to begrudge anyone their organ gun, anymore than I want them begrudging me my Treekin or Treeman.

ColShaw
02-12-2010, 20:29
I'm not going to begrudge anyone their organ gun, anymore than I want them begrudging me my Treekin or Treeman.

But they're Dwarfs. They WILL begrudge the Treekin. Grudges are what they do best. :D

DigbyWeapon
03-12-2010, 04:27
Haven't played for a long time but I remember Brettonia being a pain in the ass.

Mr Jake
03-12-2010, 08:47
Using my Skaven I hate facing my mate who plays a pack of 30-40 Nurgle Chaos Warriors, add hand weapon with the Banner of Rage... -1 to shooting and hitting in combat, immune to psych due to frenzy which they can never lose and an infinite amount of attacks... Not sure how to defeat it and he always brings the unit. Usually in a 1000 point battle too so I can't bring much that'll destroy them.

logan054
03-12-2010, 09:38
Also, no offense to logan or anyone else with this post; I simply fail to see how what you're doing in this thread is constructive. :)

No offense taken, you put it in a amusing way :)

Tarian
03-12-2010, 14:13
Using my Skaven I hate facing my mate who plays a pack of 30-40 Nurgle Chaos Warriors, add hand weapon with the Banner of Rage... -1 to shooting and hitting in combat, immune to psych due to frenzy which they can never lose and an infinite amount of attacks... Not sure how to defeat it and he always brings the unit. Usually in a 1000 point battle too so I can't bring much that'll destroy them.

1k? Put 2 WLC in there, no -1 to hit, since it's a cannon, and negates armor and uses a template. And lob Poisoned Wind Mortars and WFT at them as well. Or tie them up with 200+ Slaves and mulch the rest of his army. Or do both above, since you can shoot while he's in combat with your little blighters anyways.:D

sliganian
03-12-2010, 16:22
Nobody likes to get decimated but that is just the way of a war game.


Actually, I would LOVE if I only ever got 'decimated' in a war game. Only losing 10% of my models? Sign me up! ;)

sulla
03-12-2010, 17:42
Actually, I would LOVE if I only ever got 'decimated' in a war game. Only losing 10% of my models? Sign me up! ;)Seconded. When you've lost 80% of your best unit before you even get your first turn thanks to playing t3 Elves vs s5 templates, you long for a simple decimation. :evilgrin:

amysrevenge
03-12-2010, 17:48
Actually, I would LOVE if I only ever got 'decimated' in a war game. Only losing 10% of my models? Sign me up! ;)

Hmmmph. I always thought decimated meant 10% left, not 10% gone. Cursory internet search shows I was always wrong. :P

Caitsidhe
03-12-2010, 18:24
Decimate's historical context notwithstanding, today it means to really maul something.

Warwizard91
03-12-2010, 21:36
I hate vampire counts. Every thing I kill can come back to life. As if that wasn't bad enough the lore of life now has a spell that can do the same.

eyescrossed
04-12-2010, 01:43
For a much higher casting value, mind you.

Robotlord
05-12-2010, 18:17
Other OnG armies are the worst. I play one and trying to play against them is difficult.

GenerationTerrorist
05-12-2010, 23:58
I don't hate facing any army.

Damn it, guys, each army has it's own intrinsic play style. Dwarf Gunlines? Would it not be even more boring if each army was pre-disposed towards rushing in the direction of the opponent? Where would the tactical challenge be in that sort of environment?

I only hate certain types of players - Mostly the type who think that winning a game with some model soldiers will make him/her a candidate for Secretary General of the UN or something.

Caitsidhe
06-12-2010, 13:27
I don't hate facing any army. Damn it, guys, each army has it's own intrinsic play style. Dwarf Gunlines? Would it not be even more boring if each army was pre-disposed towards rushing in the direction of the opponent? Where would the tactical challenge be in that sort of environment?

Quoted for truth.


I only hate certain types of players - Mostly the type who think that winning a game with some model soldiers will make him/her a candidate for Secretary General of the UN or something.

I don't think anyone has made that argument here. There are bad winners just like there are bad losers. Having the chops to win doesn't equate to having the chops to being a fully rounded human being. My view is that people who behave in a spoiled, selfish way at play do not suddenly become responsible adults when they step away from the battlefield. How we play is generally a reflection of how we behave in day to day life. Play is practice for real life. Thus, bad losers, bad winners, spoiled and self absorbed players (at least in my experience) tend to have these same habits in everything they do.

Wade Wilson
06-12-2010, 13:45
Decimate's historical context notwithstanding, today it means to really maul something.

We should go for obliterate or annihalate instead as a happy medium

i havnt played against enough different armies in Fantasy to decide if i hate anything...but i have found that both High and Dark Elves are often the bane of my DoC. I made heavy use of magic with an LoC (normaly level 4) and a HoT L2. Both tended to have Master of Sorcery and give me every spell from 2 different lores. The elves often still managed to beat me down constantly in the magic phase (curse that power of darkness spell along with lore of death for loads of extra power dice). With lots of points used up on these 2 wizard models my core units always seemed to suffer.
Having high I and (with high elves) ASF meant my T3 bloodletters tended to get annialated by massed spearmen before they could attack. Curse them!

rather than despairing and loath fighting the pointy eared ones i have started changing my list a bit to incorperate more daemonette units and have started using a L4 Keeper as my GD of choice for some extra fast nasty attacks in c/c (as well as a good chance of getting phantasmagoria). Will see how it goes.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
06-12-2010, 21:18
Dwarves,... cause the biggest part from my army hates them:D. But my squiqs love to eat them.

Lunnie Logic
09-12-2010, 16:45
The only army that gives me pause for thought is the Empire. I have an extream dislike for cannons.

TheYoungin
10-12-2010, 07:37
I'm just starting to really get into warhammer and play more so I haven't played thousands of games but ive had a few hundred.

But I definitly hate playing maxed out skaven lists and lizar armies that have more than 8 skinks.

Duke Georgal
10-12-2010, 10:21
I hate facing skaven.

Darthvegeta800
10-12-2010, 11:18
I kind of don't like facing other Brets with my Bretonnians, we always end having our knights hang back f while our peasants slaughter each other.

THAT was the best post in this thread! :D

mr_purple_9
10-12-2010, 20:48
As someone said a lot earlier I hate playing armies built from the ground up to beat mine when I design mine to take on every army.

Yes I have entire Tzeentch marked WoC 1 LVL 4 on Disc, 2 lots of 18 Warriors HW & S 1 Hellcannon and 1 Warshrine. Plus a few other things brings that up to 2000 points. So it NOT as extreme as some. But for me playing any army in any system the goal of playing all comers with a list I what drives me to play.

Seeing people suddenly taking Obsidian Blades on their VL and taking the Lore of Metal for the first time are distinct give away. As well as suddenly taking a second unit of Swordmasters :)

Other than that Skaven are the one army that I worry about most. My list drew against a Tourny Player with 2 Doomwheels and HPA with Gray Seer on bell and my LVL 4 Lord died due to Hellcannon misfiring turn 2! So at least next time if the Hellcannon behaves I think I can win...

ShivanAngel
10-12-2010, 20:50
Dwarven or Empire gunline...

I see that hit the table and sigh, cause i know for the first 2-3 turns im going to be marching, Rolling armor/ward saves, and removing models.

Caitsidhe
10-12-2010, 22:47
As someone said a lot earlier I hate playing armies built from the ground up to beat mine when I design mine to take on every army.

I actually like the challenge of playing someone who has geared up just for me. The opposite is likewise true, if they know what I'm playing, the chances are I know what they are playing. Overall, however, I always build "all comer" lists because you rarely know what your opponent is going to have. In my own experience, winning lists are those that have the most options.


Seeing people suddenly taking Obsidian Blades on their VL and taking the Lore of Metal for the first time are distinct give away. As well as suddenly taking a second unit of Swordmasters :)

In fairness, there is nothing "sudden" about taking an Obsidian Blade. That is a core "all comer" bit of equipment. I play WE, for example, and I regularly outfit an Alter Kindred Lord with either the Bow of Loren w/Arcane Bodkins (no armor saves versus ranged with lots of shots) or an Obsidian Blade w/Potion of Strength. In both cases the job of this model is to eliminate high armor save types. I might need it against a Steam Tank. I might need it against WoC. There are always a few armor problems on the table. I likewise take the Razor Banner on a regular basis. :) If the Lore of Metal were an option for me I would also take that. Just because these things are particularly useful against WoC doesn't mean they are any less effective against anyone else. Anti-Armor is all comer. :)

RanaldLoec
10-12-2010, 23:17
You hate facing an Empire gunline?

I bet you would love facing an all knight Empire army.

I hate facing an ugly, fat, balding, sweaty, heavy metal listening, nerd.

I would love to face Kelly brook oiled up in a matching under wear set.

Unfortunately this hobby is filled with lots of one and none of the other so just rethink your tactics, while I continue the search for a Kelly brook look alike games workshop enthusiast.

TrojanWolf
11-12-2010, 20:15
You hate facing an Empire gunline?

I bet you would love facing an all knight Empire army.

Funny enough, I know a kid who does the former and regularly threatens to do the latter. I tend to feel the need to bring a dictionary, open it to the page containing the word friendly, and beat him over the head with it.

Naturally, he also plays IG in 40k. :rolleyes:

logan054
11-12-2010, 20:40
You hate facing an Empire gunline?

I bet you would love facing an all knight Empire army.

I would love to face that with my WoC, I actually faced a guy with what must have been a unit of 14 knights or so, didnt do a whole lot.


I hate facing an ugly, fat, balding, sweaty, heavy metal listening, nerd.

I would love to face Kelly brook oiled up in a matching under wear set.

Unfortunately this hobby is filled with lots of one and none of the other so just rethink your tactics, while I continue the search for a Kelly brook look alike games workshop enthusiast.

I would hate to play against a bird who looked like that, I wouldn't be able concentrate on the game, that's not to say I would kick her out of bed or anything ;)

mr_purple_9
11-12-2010, 22:53
You're right of course Caitsidhe some anti-armour is normal in an army. Although I doubt many would take a LVL 4 with the Lore of Metal to tournament :)

But I should of pointed out the sudden appearance of anti-armour in players who's army builds I know from watching them playing at the club I go to. THEN things get more annoying...

You're also right that this is a challenge to fight armies designed to beat yours and I do rise to them. So far this edition I have won against such armies because I know my army inside out.

The reason I hate playing such armies is mostly is a hang over from my playing in previous editions of WH by armies designed to beat mine and getting my ass handed to be thoroughly every time. But essentially that all armies become more powerful if you design them to fight another.

Ratbeast
12-12-2010, 05:48
Off topic, but people who sign after posts!!! lol

tr1pod
12-12-2010, 12:04
Definitely High Elves. Sorry but Teclis and the Book of Hoeth are overpowered. The magic phase is rediculous. Irresistible Force on any double without a miscast? Are you serious?

Put this with ASF (with re-rolls) and you have an army that may well be fun for the player but sucks for opposition. I have no problem losing, really I don't. I just want a good fight not someone who just dominates.

I love fighting everyone else though, it's always a good scrap, which is what you want.

Jonny100
15-12-2010, 12:29
Has to be my mates skaven!

Sit back 13th, templates, rinse and
Repeat where needed.

He always gets the 13th off and damn that silly rule that is pre measuring!

theorox
15-12-2010, 12:48
Off topic, but people who sign after posts!!! lol

I do. Why not?

Theo

TrojanWolf
15-12-2010, 19:19
He always gets the 13th off and damn that silly rule that is pre measuring!

Wait, he can always get the 13th off? What kind of warpstone is he using and where do I get it?!

Jonny100
15-12-2010, 20:24
Wait, he can always get the 13th off? What kind of warpstone is he using and where do I get it?!

More an insane amount of luck and really poor dispel rolls on my part but it rips my poor saurus to pieces!!

TrojanWolf
16-12-2010, 00:23
More an insane amount of luck and really poor dispel rolls on my part but it rips my poor saurus to pieces!!

Tell your friend that he is not to waste the Horned One's favour.