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View Full Version : red fury and wounds in combat not caused by attacks.



Ed the Dead
05-11-2010, 17:43
I was curious, do things like the wounds in melee caused by breath weapons or by thunderstomp work for red fury. Just was wondering a general idea of how warseer feels about this before I try the mountain chamera combo .

I my eyes, red fury effects only the wounds caused by them so you would make regular attacks for the wounds caused.

VoodooJanus
05-11-2010, 17:58
There's been quite a few threads on this already, but the general consensus is that no, breath attacks/stomp attacks don't. Search the forum for a more specific answer.

Kalandros
06-11-2010, 02:45
Breath attack would, because its wounds caused by the vampire.

Stomp is up for debate, as its not the stomp that benefits from red fury (which isnt allowed) but red fury that benefits from wounds caused by stomp.

eyescrossed
06-11-2010, 05:22
Breath attack would, because its wounds caused by the vampire.

Stomp is up for debate, as its not the stomp that benefits from red fury (which isnt allowed) but red fury that benefits from wounds caused by stomp.

This, basically.

Lord_Elric
06-11-2010, 09:34
Both breathweapons and stomp do not have any special rules that the model has it not a case of whos benefiting from the wounds caused thats Ruleslawyering at its Worst they simply do not have any special rules attached to them other than there own "aka flaming"

Kalandros
07-11-2010, 02:15
You're making things up. Breaths in close combat are close combat attacks distributed as shooting.

Thus Red Fury benefits from it.

stop throwing "its ruleslawyering at its worst" when someone disagrees with you, its just annoying. If you have no solid argument, don't brand others to be abusing the rules.

If you really want me to pick at the rule and take every advantage there is to it:
It states clearly "For each unsaved wound that the Vampire causes it gets to immediately make an additional attack"

This means if my Vampire is in close combat and throws purple sun, kills 20 models, it gets 20 attacks even if its in the magic phase, because there is nothing to Red fury that says it only happens in Close combat.

So yes, Breath Weapons and even the Stomp would generate attacks.

eyescrossed
07-11-2010, 03:55
The Breath Weapon is definite. I'm not sure about the Thunderstomp, but Red Fury definitely benefits from Breath Weapons.

Lord_Elric
07-11-2010, 09:15
Have neither of you read the faq where it states the exact same things for breath weapons as it does for stomp then??? and red fury being attached to purple sun thats the biggest load of b*&^%)x if ever heard
neither breath weapons or stomp have any special rules other than there own its not a case of what benefits from the special rule the is Rules lawyering by a long shot

the breathweapon/stomp has to "have" the red fury special rule in order to generate attacks and neither of these atack do...

Q: Are upgrades bought for characters from army specific lists which
aren’t magic items or equipment (such as Vampiric Powers or
Deamonic Gifts) special rules? (p66)
A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise in an entry.

Q: Do Breath Weapon hits benefit from any other special rules,
equipment or magic items of the model that inflicts the hits? (p67)
A: No.

Q: Do Stomp or Thunderstomp hits benefit from any other special
rules, equipment or magic items of the model that inflicts the hits?
(p76)
A: No.

Using the word "benefits" to your advantage in order to ignore both these faqs is Rules lawyering and not just because you dont agree with me as the chance of us ever playing each other is probably nil but its clear as day right here in the faqs

eyescrossed
07-11-2010, 09:57
I'll leave the rules discussion to someone else. I don't even play Vampire Counts, and your tone isn't in the slightest polite.

Good day, kind sir.

Kalandros
07-11-2010, 18:40
Have neither of you read the faq where it states the exact same things for breath weapons as it does for stomp then??? and red fury being attached to purple sun thats the biggest load of b*&^%)x if ever heard
neither breath weapons or stomp have any special rules other than there own its not a case of what benefits from the special rule the is Rules lawyering by a long shot

Using the word "benefits" to your advantage in order to ignore both these faqs is Rules lawyering and not just because you dont agree with me as the chance of us ever playing each other is probably nil but its clear as day right here in the faqs

Well, you have to admit that nothing you will ever come up with can deny Red Fury from generating attacks from wounds caused by spells while in close combat.

Its just that you don't like the idea of it, but its still clearly how the rules are written.

And again, the breath isn't benefiting from red fury, its red fury that generates attacks from WOUNDS CAUSED. It doesn't matter how, the ruling on stomp and breath means you cannot apply things to the stomp/breath attacks but thats not what red fury does.

Lord_Elric
07-11-2010, 20:28
Well, you have to admit that nothing you will ever come up with can deny Red Fury from generating attacks from wounds caused by spells while in close combat.

Its just that you don't like the idea of it, but its still clearly how the rules are written.

And again, the breath isn't benefiting from red fury, its red fury that generates attacks from WOUNDS CAUSED. It doesn't matter how, the ruling on stomp and breath means you cannot apply things to the stomp/breath attacks but thats not what red fury does.

The vampire adds the red fury special rule to its attacks in order to generate the attacks and neither breath weapons nor stomp have any special rules associated with them except there own the fact the word "benefits is in the question and the answer is a straight and definite "no" using redfury to gain additional attacks rules lawyering. it not the fact i dont like the idea of it its the fact its completly stupid whilst being against the rules. the fact it states red fury can not be used with a great weapon greatly implies that redfury is attached to close combat attacks.

The vampires attacks have the red fury special rule attached to them they are therefore benefiting from the rule.

I could be equaly stupid and argue the fact that Red fury states the "Vampire" gains the benefit and that hes a chimera not a vampire its an equal abuse of wording.

though i dont know why im argueing anymore until that single word is altered in the faq which is unlikly everyone will carry it on with it.

Kalandros
07-11-2010, 20:46
red fury is not a special rule that is added to attacks.
Its a special rule applied to the Vampire.

Also the Vampire keeps the Vampire Special Rule when transformed into a Chimeara.

And as I already mentioned, Red Fury triggers from Unsaved Wounds Caused by the Vampire.

Did the vampire cause 5 unsaved wounds when using the breath attack? Yes. Make 5 attacks immediately, if in base-to-base contact with an enemy.

Did the vampire cause 15 unsaved wounds when he unleashed a Purple Sun? Yes. Make 15 attacks immediately, if in base-to-base contact with an enemy.

There's no rules lawyering in this but the simple reading of the rules as they are clearly written.

Lord_Elric
07-11-2010, 20:55
ok if you say so id love to see any of these be used in throne of skulls though hahahaha

I tire of such silly arguements and rules abuse its just silly ........ sigh

H33D
08-11-2010, 04:44
Yeah if a Vampire with Red Fury transforms into a Fire Dragon he retains Red Fury. When he subsequently uses a breath weapon or thunderstomp ability, the rules for Red Fury state he makes an immediate attack for each of these that causes a wound. Breath Weapons and Stomps do not benefit from special abilities (killing blow etc), however Red Fury has nothing saying it doesn't work for breath weapons or stomps, just with Great Weapons.

Therefore it is clear that RAW states Red Fury will allow an attack for each wound caused with breath weapons and stomps.

Doubtful that this is RAI, but you would think GW would look at these kinds of things before they put a spell like Transformation of Kadon in the main rulebook.

Grey Mage
08-11-2010, 10:10
Except that, and I dont have the FAQ in front of me but Im assuming the quote above is accurate, Red Fury is a special ability- and thus the stomp/breath weapon isnt affected by it.

Though all his attacks as a dragon would be, wich is pretty epic in and of itself.

H33D
08-11-2010, 10:38
red fury doesn't help stomps or breath weapons at all.

wounds caused by stomps and breath weapons simply trigger red fury.

PeG
08-11-2010, 11:26
My view is that the answer to this should be no despite not being clear in the rules. Also in warhammer I think that it is valid to ask yourself sometimes if the effect of doing something is reasonable compared to its point costs and effects on the game and in this case it isnt. This is similar to the debate about daemon gift for 5points that may according to RAW give an additional attack but which isnt reasonable compared to the cost paid.

In the case of stomp it is stated that the stomp attack is performed last ie after the regular attacks. If red fury generates an additional stomp attack it would mean that that stomp attack is benefitting from red fury (which it cant) and if it generates any other type of attack it also doesnt follow the rules.

Lord_Elric
08-11-2010, 11:48
red fury doesn't help stomps or breath weapons at all.

wounds caused by stomps and breath weapons simply trigger red fury.

im going to argues you in an equal stupid manner then and say that refury triggers for every unsaved wound the "vampire" causes however the Vampire isnt causeing any wounds his weapons are causing the wounds therefore unless hes unarmed red fury cant trigger

The fact it states that it cant be used with a great weapon only "implies" that the vampire weapons activate redfury it does not "state" that they doo ................:rolleyes:

Ed the Dead
08-11-2010, 15:44
So to paraphrase the arguement up till now, one side says breath weapons/stomps don't can't be effected by special abilities. The other half states that they can't be affected by abilities and that it is the wounds that get affected by red fury because it is how many wounds the vampire inflicts regardless of how as long as he is in melee. That about sum it up well ?

Lord_Elric
08-11-2010, 16:02
So to paraphrase the arguement up till now, one side says breath weapons/stomps don't can't be effected by special abilities. The other half states that they can't be affected by abilities and that it is the wounds that get affected by red fury because it is how many wounds the vampire inflicts regardless of how as long as he is in melee. That about sum it up well ?

Dont forget the second half of people also thinking that casting purple sun whilst in combat also generate attacks through red fury :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ed the Dead
08-11-2010, 19:16
Dont forget the second half of people also thinking that casting purple sun whilst in combat also generate attacks through red fury :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Aka raw vs rai

Lord_Elric
08-11-2010, 20:32
more like RAW vs RAI vs RATBS

Codsticker
08-11-2010, 21:46
Dont forget the second half of people also thinking that casting purple sun whilst in combat also generate attacks through red fury :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Nobody is seriously advocating that, it was brought up as an example of RAW in the extreme.

Lord_Elric
08-11-2010, 21:50
Nobody is seriously advocating that, it was abrought up as an example of RAW in the extreme.

however im unfortunate enough to know a couple, 1 of which actualy works at GW So when hes working you always end up having to play how he says wether either of the players agree or not

EDMM
09-11-2010, 23:16
Do Keepers gain wounds from Thundersomp when they have Spirit Swallower? Same answer.

Do Bone Giants get extra attacks from Thunderstomp through Unstoppable Assault? Same answer and the answer is no in the Tomb Kings FAQ.

Lord_Elric
09-11-2010, 23:45
Do Keepers gain wounds from Thundersomp when they have Spirit Swallower? Same answer.

Do Bone Giants get extra attacks from Thunderstomp through Unstoppable Assault? Same answer and the answer is no in the Tomb Kings FAQ.

Hmmm good call there and id say thats game set match really as i doubt theyll faq it in VC faq though so this arguement will go on and on and on and on .................................................. ........................

DeathlessDraich
10-11-2010, 11:19
There is a solution to the problem of Stomp and Red Fury :)

1) Stomp has to obey the ASL rule i.e. it is the last action/attack in combat. It is the last strike or hit/s.

2) There cannot be any hits/strikes after the last strike/hit - it is after all last.

3) Therefore there cannot be any attacks of any sort after Stomp - no Red Fury - since Red Fury would prevent ASL hits from being last :)

Just a comment:
The other problem with Red Fury is fortunately quietly accepted by most
players as tacit.
The rule is "For each unsaved wound that the Vampire causes it gets to immediately make an additional attack"

is commonly interpreted as
"During a round of combat/combat phase, for each unsaved wound that the Vampire causes it gets to immediately make an additional attack"

The additional phrase is necessary because the Vampire could gain from all its previously inflicted wounds cumulatively.

Glen_Savet
10-11-2010, 14:18
Would that mean DD, that a vampire with a great weapon wouldn't get extra attacks?

Lord_Elric
10-11-2010, 14:23
Would that mean DD, that a vampire with a great weapon wouldn't get extra attacks?

Um yeh fortunately red fury is also unable to be used with a great weapon

EDMM
10-11-2010, 14:30
What about fighting another Vampire with the Nightshroud or Nurgle Herald with Vapours or Wood Elf with the Amber Pendant?

That's a silly argument. They don't get the bonuses because special rules don't apply to Stomp or Breath Weapons, not because of some silly timing issue.

Ed the Dead
10-11-2010, 14:32
Do Keepers gain wounds from Thundersomp when they have Spirit Swallower? Same answer.

Do Bone Giants get extra attacks from Thunderstomp through Unstoppable Assault? Same answer and the answer is no in the Tomb Kings FAQ.

I am of the oppinion that keeper does gain wounds. The reason the bone giant doesnt benifite is because it gives him more thunderstomp attacks compared to regular attacks.

EDMM
10-11-2010, 15:12
The reason the bone giant doesnt benifite is because it gives him more thunderstomp attacks compared to regular attacks.

You made that up. The FAQ says nothing of the sort. The only word in the answer is "No," not "No, the Bone Giant doesn't get more attacks because he would get more Thunderstomp attacks."

I don't even know where you got that idea.

Lex
10-11-2010, 15:13
Anyone have an exact quote of the "Unstoppable Assault" rule from the Tomb Kings book?

Ed the Dead
10-11-2010, 15:18
That is what was said. I haven't got a chance to see faq yet so I went with what was said.

EDMM
10-11-2010, 15:27
Bone Giant Unstoppable Assault:

For every wounding hit that the Bone Giant inflicts when it charges (before saving throws), the Bone Giant gets to make an additional attack. Such additional attacks also benefit from the Unstoppable Assault rule.

Daemon Soul Hunger:

The Daemon gains one wound for each unsaved wound it causes in close combat. This may not take the Daemon beyond its starting number of wounds.

Vampire Red Fury:

For each unsaved wound that the Vampire causes it gets to immediately make an additional attack. These additional attacks do not benefit from the Red Fury Rule. The Red Fury ability cannot be combined with a great weapon.

Bone Giant FAQ:

Q. Does a Bone Giant gain extra attacks from wounds caused by its Thunderstomp special rule? (p31)
A. No

Lex
10-11-2010, 15:45
Hmm. The wording on both UA and RF definitely make it clear that the attacks themselves benefit from the rule and therefore would not be usable with BW/TS. Soul Hunger is a bit more ambiguous. I wouldn't fight about it either way.

Ed the Dead
10-11-2010, 15:54
I will concede thunderstomp because gw says so, but the breath weapon is still good for me.

Lord_Elric
10-11-2010, 16:00
I will concede thunderstomp because gw says so, but the breath weapon is still good for me.

what you mean even though a breath weapon has exactly the same FAQ question as Stomp in the BRB FaQ and yet hasnt been Refuted becuase a bone giant doesnt have a Breath weapon......hmmmm Power game much???

Ed the Dead
10-11-2010, 16:52
I need to read the faqs at some point XD. This is why I asked in rules.

Lex
10-11-2010, 17:23
I don't even think the TK FAQ is necessary. The BRB FAQ and the rules themselves should be sufficient enough.