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Culgore
05-11-2010, 21:20
So I have been reading a lot of 40k novels as of late, I must say(despite my love for the Deathguard) they seem to be the most interesting/conflicted Legion out there. They seem loyal up until Russ is going to kill Magnus. They(Magnus) try to head off the heresy, and for their trouble have the Space Wolves sicked on them... essentially for using abilities which would be eventually sanctioned by the Imperium. What do you guys think?

Drasanil
05-11-2010, 21:34
I think the most tragic legion of the bunch has to be the Dark Angels, as ADB* hinted at in First Heretic and posted as much here the Lion was slated for corruption and managed to resist the Big 4 when the others didn't. Only to then have his best friend and half his legion go traitor any ways and then to add insult to injury a whole bunch of demented fan theories arise as to how he really was the traitor and Luthor was somehow the loyal one, truly the greatest of tragedies to befall a Legion:p

*May he one day rule the Black Library and bring us a new age of awesome.

Drakcore Bloodtear
05-11-2010, 21:41
You'll see that alot of the traitors stories are tragic
Cruze, sending his legion on suicide missions to cleanse them of villians. And finally sacrificing himself.

Lorgar, being punished be his belifes and simple resorting to the Chaos Gods as they let him be himself.

Flugrim, being comsumed by his needs for perfection.

Alapharus, well.... Alpharus is complicated

So you can see alot of the Traitor Primarch didn't just change for the lolz they each had a personal experience with the Emperor.
You can't blame him really, imagine if you had to raise 20, 7ft superhuman sons?

Swordsman
05-11-2010, 22:01
The Thousand Sons got screwed over pretty badly, yeah. Both Magnus and Fulgrim seem the most tragic to me. The others seem a bit childish in their motivations.

The worst is probably Perturabo, that guy is just a jerk.

MrSatan
05-11-2010, 22:40
I would say Alapharus Omegon, having to be loyal and turn against his father for what he believes was going to save things, only to then find out that it was in vain and the plan somehow failed

MEcorp
05-11-2010, 23:00
The whole point of most of the traitors back story is that their tragic from an omniscient POV (like ours). It makes the story much more compelling than if they'd just done it 'for the lolz'.

@ Swordsman:
Perturabo had his legion sent into the hardest grinds against the toughest opponents. He suffered the ignominy of his men being used for GUARD DUTY in various random outposts yet despite this he excelled as the best (at least arguably so) siege-master in 40k history. His reward? Nothing, the prize is given to another, one whose never struggled through the fights Perturabo has. Then, to top it all off, his world rebels and he faces the prospect of becoming the only primarch ever to lose his world. So he over-reacts and faced with what he's done turns to the only brother who's ever treated him with respect.

Tell me that's not tragic.

Londinium
05-11-2010, 23:12
I wouldn't say that Fulgrim is particularly tragic now. He was already conspiring with Horus before his men went full on Slaneesh. In the past his turn was much more interesting, when he raced to Istvaan to have it out with Horus and then was seduced and corrupted to Slaneesh and the rebellion. Now he just has a goofy daemon sword that helps exacerbate his perfectionism and lead him down the route of corruption.

KingDeath
05-11-2010, 23:29
I can't see too much tragedy in any of the Traitor Legions's stories.
Magnus was an arrogant fool who wouldn't have noticed the limits of his power and understanding if they poked him in the eye. His Legion was equally flawed, willing to go to almost any length for just a tiny bit more knowledge.

Swordsman
05-11-2010, 23:44
Perturabo had his legion sent into the hardest grinds against the toughest opponents.

Where is the evidence of this?


He suffered the ignominy of his men being used for GUARD DUTY in various random outposts yet despite this he excelled as the best (at least arguably so) siege-master in 40k history.

The Imperial Fists were called back to Terra to preform "guard duty", as you put it, and it was considered an honor. The difference is that Dorn and his sons realized that the needs of the Imperium outweigh their personal needs.

I wouldn't expect Perturabo to know about self-sacrifice though. He has always lived for himself, ever since he was discovered by the people of Olympia, scaling the mountainside.

He never showed his foster father any love, but did accept the comfort and power given to him - and then, with the coming of the Emperor, he destroyed his foster father, and his empire.

This guy is ice cold from the start.


His reward?

Why was service to the Emperor "prize" enough for other Primarch's? Why did he need a pat on the back?


Nothing, the prize is given to another, one whose never struggled through the fights Perturabo has.

You're saying that Horus had it easy? That his victories were somehow meaningless, or easy?


Then, to top it all off, his world rebels and he faces the prospect of becoming the only primarch ever to lose his world.

His world rebelled because there were still people loyal to the foster father that he betrayed.

His inability to control his world doesn't somehow make him a victim.

His brash reaction makes him an uncaring monster.

"The people are rebelling."
"I can't look bad in the eyes of my brothers.. kill everyone."


So he over-reacts and faced with what he's done turns to the only brother who's ever treated him with respect.

Mind citing that source? I know the Lion respected him enough to trust him with the titans he denied Horus in the early days of the Heresy.


Tell me that's not tragic.

Ok, it's not. The guy is a heartless wall from the start, and only gets more cruel.

His "motivation" is petty.

nagash66
06-11-2010, 00:15
Why do people keep going on and on about how tragic the 1000 son had it.

Magnus broke Imperial degree, he was told, nay commanded by the EMPEROR to stop looking into the warp and get his act together. He went against a direct Imperial degree that makes him a traitor.

First heretic speaks on what happened to the 2 missing legions, and the hints given point to 1 being taken apart for treason/disorder.

So no Magnus and his legions fate wasnt tragic no matter how much they thought they were in the right, The Emperors word is Imperial law plain and simple Magnus knew the risks and he rolled the dice.

And for this he was thrown to the Wolves...good ridance.

Lord_Crull
06-11-2010, 01:06
Why do people keep going on and on about how tragic the 1000 son had it.

Magnus broke Imperial degree, he was told, nay commanded by the EMPEROR to stop looking into the warp and get his act together. He went against a direct Imperial degree that makes him a traitor.

First heretic speaks on what happened to the 2 missing legions, and the hints given point to 1 being taken apart for treason/disorder.

So no Magnus and his legions fate wasnt tragic no matter how much they thought they were in the right, The Emperors word is Imperial law plain and simple Magnus knew the risks and he rolled the dice.

And for this he was thrown to the Wolves...good ridance.

I don't think that's quite the tragedy. The real tragedy was that Magnus was a great man, a brilliant man, loyal to the Emperor, but in reality he himself was being manipulated.

Go look up the old tragic Greek myths. A central character called a tragic protagonist or hero suffers some serious misfortune which is not accidental and therefore meaningless, but is significant in that the misfortune is logically connected with the hero's actions. In the end it's about human suffering.

Of course no definition fits exactly, but I think Magnus fits pretty well into the whole Greek ''hero dooms himself unknowingly'' trope.

MEcorp
06-11-2010, 01:59
@Swordsman

I think you and I will just have to disagree about the fate of Perturabo.

My point was more that under a certain light Perturabo can be a tragic character. Yes from the Imperiums POV he is a bad man. But the fact remains that right up until the Drop Site Massacre his 'heartless' nature was exactly why he was so useful to the Emperor.

The true tragedy is that the Emperor didn't see it all coming. There is Lord-Crull's protagonist doomed by his own actions. He neglected some sons to favour others. He turned some sons into monsters (or at the very least accepted their turning themselves into monsters), he sowed the seeds of their distrust of one another and in the end he reaped the rewards. The Heresy was inevitable based on the character, past and treatment of many of the primarchs.

DantesInferno
06-11-2010, 02:29
Why do people keep going on and on about how tragic the 1000 son had it.

Magnus broke Imperial degree, he was told, nay commanded by the EMPEROR to stop looking into the warp and get his act together. He went against a direct Imperial degree that makes him a traitor.

First heretic speaks on what happened to the 2 missing legions, and the hints given point to 1 being taken apart for treason/disorder.

So no Magnus and his legions fate wasnt tragic no matter how much they thought they were in the right, The Emperors word is Imperial law plain and simple Magnus knew the risks and he rolled the dice.

And for this he was thrown to the Wolves...good ridance.

The problem, of course, is that Magnus was right - He managed to send a intelligible message about future events which turned out to be correct. If the Emperor had heeded his message, he could have immediately recalled the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and other Legions which definitely weren't going to go to Horus' side. He never would have sent off the Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hands to get slaughtered on Istvaan V. Horus still may have had a chance, but it would have been nowhere near as much as he did after the Emperor sent Russ to bring Magnus in, and didn't even warn him to keep an eye on Horus. I don't see how this can be reasonably denied.

Indeed, the point of the series of events leading to Magnus's fall is that they show that the Emperor wasn't infallible. He ignored Magnus's warning when it could have saved the Imperium and his own life if he had heeded it, or at least treated it with a slight degree of suspicion.

Therefore, given that the Emperor is not a perfect being of infallibility, it stands to reason that disobeying him could be justified in certain circumstances (ie - when he's wrong), and that blindly obeying him could be the wrong thing to do.

MagosHereticus
06-11-2010, 03:31
i think the night haunter takes it, he was lost in his own mad dreams of the future and rebelled against a tyranny that had yet come to pass, he was fighting against the imperium of man that we know with it's oppression and superstition yet his act of rebellion ultimately made things worse not better

he's tragic in the traditional sense, his own mind and his gift of foresight betrayed him

Noserenda
06-11-2010, 03:47
This again? :shifty:

Magnus was right, also wrong and an ******... I love his scene in First Heretic bearing this out too.

In fact, after reading First Heretic Im thinking its poor old misunderstood Lorgar whos gaining Tragedy points :angel:

Ofc its still Angaron who is actually the most tragic, poor boy got shat on from his crash landing onwards...

Hellebore
06-11-2010, 05:18
The most tragic was the 21st legion run by the triplet primarchs Larus, Moes and Curlis. They had unique powers: One couldn't talk, another couldn't hear and the last couldn't see. Their tactics were based on three stooges re-runs and eventually they were killed by Imperial decree because 'the grim darkness of the far future is serious business.'

Hellebore

shadowhawk2008
06-11-2010, 05:23
Just to nitpick the really small things ---

It's Alpharius not Alpharus.

It's Angron not Angaron.

It's Fulgrim not Flugrim.

Son of Sanguinius
06-11-2010, 05:24
The most tragic was the 21st legion run by the triplet primarchs Larus, Moes and Curlis. They had unique powers: One couldn't talk, another couldn't hear and the last couldn't see. Their tactics were based on three stooges re-runs and eventually they were killed by Imperial decree because 'the grim darkness of the far future is serious business.'

Hellebore

I can scratch off another tv show of my list of shows that I thought would never be referenced in warhammer discussions.

MagosHereticus
06-11-2010, 09:26
The most tragic was the 21st legion run by the triplet primarchs Larus, Moes and Curlis. They had unique powers: One couldn't talk, another couldn't hear and the last couldn't see. Their tactics were based on three stooges re-runs and eventually they were killed by Imperial decree because 'the grim darkness of the far future is serious business.'

Hellebore

ahahahahaha :cheese:

Askari
06-11-2010, 10:06
Why do people keep going on and on about how tragic the 1000 son had it.

Magnus broke Imperial degree, he was told, nay commanded by the EMPEROR to stop looking into the warp and get his act together. He went against a direct Imperial degree that makes him a traitor.

First heretic speaks on what happened to the 2 missing legions, and the hints given point to 1 being taken apart for treason/disorder.

So no Magnus and his legions fate wasnt tragic no matter how much they thought they were in the right, The Emperors word is Imperial law plain and simple Magnus knew the risks and he rolled the dice.

And for this he was thrown to the Wolves...good ridance.

You can break the rules if it's justified - Magnus was. The Emperor ignored him, because he's all too human and never thought his favourite son would turn on him, and because he couldn't bring himself to give his sons the talk on "Drugs = bad, Chaos Gods = very bad".

Just because the Emperor says something doesn't mean it's right. Magnus knew the effect of his actions, and still went through with it.

FlashGordon
06-11-2010, 10:07
In fact, after reading First Heretic Im thinking its poor old misunderstood Lorgar whos gaining Tragedy points :angel:



U mad? He was an utter ass. Caring nothing for his legion. Letting them be sacrificed in the Eye of terror. Yeah, really tragic:rolleyes:

abasio
06-11-2010, 11:42
Angron:
Forced into slavery, given implants to just ******* him up mentally. He forged very tight bonds with his fellow galditorial slaves as they were made to kill for the entertainment of a rich ruling class. Finally they managed to get some payback on his oppressors when his absentee father swoops in kidnaps him and allows Angron's nearest and dearest to be killed; thus rubishing Angron's oaths of fealty. Then without so much of a hello this is your ace new life and a hug from daddy, the emp just buggers off. Angron then kills most of the highest ranking officers in his new legion before he even knows they are his gene sons.

Tragic! Angron is definitely for me the most tragic primarch. His legion too, in honour to their gene sire underwent the same brain implantation that completey changed them. They were doing what they thought was right (honour to your father) the Emperor used them as a weapon: sanctioning their actions and then people turned on them and accused them of being too barbaric. The hypocrisy of the loyal legions who criticised them makes them more tragic.

nagash66
06-11-2010, 12:09
Of course no definition fits exactly, but I think Magnus fits pretty well into the whole Greek ''hero dooms himself unknowingly'' trope.

I can see why you would view it that way, i do not. Oedipus and the like were tragic because they dint have any control over some aspect of their lives which would lead them to their ruin, Magus does not share this excuse.


The problem, of course, is that Magnus was right -

No he wasnt. He broke Imperial degree and no matter how the or why it got to that point he fell to chaos and doomed his legion. This is a direct result of him breaking the Emperors law. Look at this way:

Emperor: You brake this degree and you damn youreself and youre legion.
Magnus: Brakes degree but finds out something that could be good.
Emperor: My word is law and you broke it.
Magnus: How was i too know this would happen??
Emperor:.... I told you in person to youre very face?


Indeed, the point of the series of events leading to Magnus's fall is that they show that the Emperor wasn't infallible. He ignored Magnus's warning when it could have saved the Imperium and his own life if he had heeded it, or at least treated it with a slight degree of suspicion.


For this you assume too many things, who is to say the Emperor dint have a plan? Do we know what information he had at the time? Why take Magnus at his word when he has just proven it means little by breaking the degree?


You can break the rules if it's justified -

No not in the Imperium, you brake the Emperors law you will meet the Emperors justice. 2 full legions stand as proof to what happens to marines who in some way irk the Emperor and Magnus knew this.

If the Emperor orders you not to do something and you do it you will burn,Magnus not only broke the law he did it with full context on what he was doing, all in some vein quest to show dad he was right.

ryng_sting
06-11-2010, 12:25
Magnus is a character from a greek tragedy in space, complete with The Fatal Flaw. He claimed the warp could be mastered, but the warp mastered him completely, trashing the webway project for good, and giving Tzeentch a legion of his own. Even Magnus knew he'd been a dupe by the end.

Lord_Crull
06-11-2010, 14:04
I can see why you would view it that way, i do not. Oedipus and the like were tragic because they dint have any control over some aspect of their lives which would lead them to their ruin, Magus does not share this excuse.


Actually he does. In the novel it's implied that from birth he was manipulated by Tzeentch and from his Legion's birth their geneseed was flawed. Essentially forcing Magnus to bargain with Tzeentch if he wanted his own sons to survive. (Much like the Emperor is implied in the Horus Heresy series to have done the same with the Chaos Gods in order to create the Primarchs)



No he wasnt. He broke Imperial degree and no matter how the or why it got to that point he fell to chaos and doomed his legion.

Actually no, Magnus was perfectly willing to accept his punishment and even tried sabotaging his Legion multiple times in the book to make it easier for the Wolves. It was only at the very last minute did he turn to Chaos.

Have you read A Thousand Sons?



For this you assume too many things, who is to say the Emperor dint have a plan?

We do. He was absorbed in the Imperial Webway at this time. Collected Visions explains that.


Do we know what information he had at the time?

Do you know what information he had at the time?


Why take Magnus at his word when he has just proven it means little by breaking the degree?


Actually the Emperor did. The Emperor was not so much as mad about the decree, but more about Magnus accidently wrecking the Imperial Webway. It's also in A Thousand Sons.



No not in the Imperium, you brake the Emperors law you will meet the Emperors justice. 2 full legions stand as proof to what happens to marines who in some way irk the Emperor and Magnus knew this.


Actually no, we don't know what happened to those Legions. We don't know if it was the Emperor who destroyed them or not.

Oh. and Russ was only meant to bring Magnus back to Terra. Horus changed the orders to ''kill'' instead.



If the Emperor orders you not to do something and you do it you will burn,.

Or you could be brought back to Terra to explain yourself, like the Emperor's orignal orders.;)



If the Emperor orders you not to do something and you do it you will burn,Magnus not only broke the law he did it with full context on what he was doing, all in some vein quest to show dad he was right.

Not quite.

DantesInferno
06-11-2010, 14:05
No he wasnt. He broke Imperial degree and no matter how the or why it got to that point he fell to chaos and doomed his legion. This is a direct result of him breaking the Emperors law. Look at this way:

Emperor: You brake this degree and you damn youreself and youre legion.
Magnus: Brakes degree but finds out something that could be good.
Emperor: My word is law and you broke it.
Magnus: How was i too know this would happen??
Emperor:.... I told you in person to youre very face?

No not in the Imperium, you brake the Emperors law you will meet the Emperors justice. 2 full legions stand as proof to what happens to marines who in some way irk the Emperor and Magnus knew this.

If the Emperor orders you not to do something and you do it you will burn,Magnus not only broke the law he did it with full context on what he was doing, all in some vein quest to show dad he was right.

I find your confidence in the moral authority of the laws of a totalitarian military dictator to be somewhat unsettling. The issue isn't whether Magnus acted "legally" in the circumstances, it's whether he acted morally.

Blindly following orders of dubious authorities can lead to horribly immoral actions, and sometimes the right thing to do is to stick to your principles. Magnus was unlucky - if his warning had been heeded, he would have been hailed as a hero of the Imperium.

The Emperor warned Magnus not to delve further into his research, but it's quite probable that Magnus knew more than him about the subject anyway. Magnus was at least partly right - sorcery can be a worthwhile risk in certain circumstances.

There are occasions when the dangers of employing sorcery are worth the risk. Averting the coming apocalypse of a galactic civil war would be one of those occasions. If the Emperor hadn't dismissed his warning out of hand, but instead investigated both the Sons of Horus and the Thousand Sons, Magnus would have been spectacularly vindicated.


For this you assume too many things, who is to say the Emperor dint have a plan? Do we know what information he had at the time? Why take Magnus at his word when he has just proven it means little by breaking the degree?

Most accounts say that he succeeded in sending a comprehensible message to the Emperor warning him of Horus's treachery.

Of course, his warning was not heeded, and the Emperor's subsequent actions triggered a series of events which led to Magnus falling to Tzeentch. The fact remains that Magnus succeeded in what he was trying to do - send an intelligible message to the Emperor to alert him of Horus's impending rebellion.

AlphariusOmegon20
06-11-2010, 17:23
Where is the evidence of this?

It's an almost direct quote from the IW article in IA.




The Imperial Fists were called back to Terra to preform "guard duty", as you put it, and it was considered an honor. The difference is that Dorn and his sons realized that the needs of the Imperium outweigh their personal needs.

IF and IW have two different ways of fighting, or at least in the past they did. IF was for fortifying planets, IW was for busting already fortified planets.

Siege warfare is an extremely hard core form of combat.



This guy is ice cold from the start.

One must be ice cold to perform Siege warfare in the first place. It is not for hotheads.



His brash reaction makes him an uncaring monster.

Considering it was the only option he had, how is it brash?

nagash66
06-11-2010, 20:56
Actually he does. In the novel it's implied that from birth he was manipulated by Tzeentch and from his Legion's birth their geneseed was flawed. Essentially forcing Magnus to bargain with Tzeentch if he wanted his own sons to survive. (Much like the Emperor is implied in the Horus Heresy series to have done the same with the Chaos Gods in order to create the Primarchs)

Implied means take as you will, i see we do not see eye to eye on this.




Actually no, Magnus was perfectly willing to accept his punishment and even tried sabotaging his Legion multiple times in the book to make it easier for the Wolves. It was only at the very last minute did he turn to Chaos.

Have you read A Thousand Sons?

Yes i have twice now, and you make my point for me, he was willing to accept it UNTIL the last minite, so he dint accept it but instead he tried to. And i am a Yoda man on this, there is no try, you ether do or do not, Magnus did not.





We do. He was absorbed in the Imperial Webway at this time. Collected Visions explains that.
Yes and Magnus destroyed this by breaking the degree he had been issued hence why he was punished.




Do you know what information he had at the time?
No one does that my point, untill we know it pointless talking about what the Emperor thought or planned, we can only assume, which is fun but we will never get anywhere solid.




Actually the Emperor did. The Emperor was not so much as mad about the decree, but more about Magnus accidently wrecking the Imperial Webway. It's also in A Thousand Sons.

But Magnuss could never wreck the Webway without breaking the degree they are one and the same act.




Actually no, we don't know what happened to those Legions. We don't know if it was the Emperor who destroyed them or not.

First heretic makes it very clear that it was on Imperial orders that the legion are now missing.


Oh. and Russ was only meant to bring Magnus back to Terra. Horus changed the orders to ''kill'' instead.
Or you could be brought back to Terra to explain yourself, like the Emperor's orignal orders.;)



I have seen explanations that point both ways, i will wait till prospero burns for the full scoop.


I find your confidence in the moral authority of the laws of a totalitarian military dictator to be somewhat unsettling. The issue isn't whether Magnus acted "legally" in the circumstances, it's whether he acted morally.



I am sorry and i mean no offence, but WHAAAAT?

This is 40k the world morally should not be used in the same sentence as 40k, this is the Imperium we are talking about acting morally is if anything a bad thing, you follow orders you follow the law you follow the Emperor or you burn.

In the case of Magnus i am 100% adamant that he got what was coming to him, he was warned not to play with fire but he could stop himself so he got bruned.

Lord_Crull
06-11-2010, 21:48
Implied means take as you will, i see we do not see eye to eye on this.


Actually upon further reading it's more tham implied. Magnus realized at the end he was always a dupe for Tzeentch.

And the Thousand Sons flawed geneseed was commented many tiems in many different sources.



Yes i have twice now, and you make my point for me, he was willing to accept it UNTIL the last minite, so he dint accept it but instead he tried to.

How did I make your point for you? Magnus would have probably gone quietly with Russ if Russ merely asked him. Instead Horus changed the orders to kill. And even then Magnus only went traitor in order to save what was left of his sons.



And i am a Yoda man on this, there is no try, you ether do or do not, Magnus did not.


Yoda was cool and all, but really the whole point of Star Wars was that he was kinda wrong. Read the prequels. Yoda really did not manage the whole Anakin/Chosen One issue to well IMO. The Jedi Pre-Order 66 dealt very poorly with human emotion.

Plus the ''do or do not'' is't really practical. I can certainly try to run for Mayor and spend all my sincere efforts to doing so. But If I fail to become Mayor are you going to credit me poorly then?



Yes and Magnus destroyed this by breaking the degree he had been issued hence why he was punished.


Actually no. If the whole Nikea issue had never come to light, regardless of what law the Emperor woud have set the result would have been the same.

And once again the Emperor seemingly only intended to bring Russ. Horus changed the orders to kill.



But Magnuss could never wreck the Webway without breaking the degree they are one and the same act.


Again, if the decree would have never been issused he still would have been mad.

It's like having a man jaywalk across a parking lot to murder another man. Regardless if he jaywalks or not he is still going to commit murder.



First heretic makes it very clear that it was on Imperial orders that the legion are now missing.


I don't recall reading that. I recall it being rather vague really.



I am sorry and i mean no offence, but WHAAAAT?

This is 40k the world morally should not be used in the same sentence as 40k, this is the Imperium we are talking about acting morally is if anything a bad thing, you follow orders you follow the law you follow the Emperor or you burn.

In the case of Magnus i am 100% adamant that he got what was coming to him, he was warned not to play with fire but he could stop himself so he got bruned.

Except as we know, the Emperor was kinda wrong on the whole Librarian issue and on the whole Horus issue. The Emperor, despite popular belief, is not always right or even a good guy at times.

And no, Magnus did not play with fire. Magnus did an act intended to save the galaxy and in upmost care. He hardly did it for kicks and giggles as you seem to imply. Plus the Emperor did not intend to have Magnus ''burn'' as you imply. Horus changed the orders. You seem to be ignoring this. If Russ showed up and just calmly asked for Magnus to come to Terra with him then Magnus would have probably done so.

Zothos
06-11-2010, 23:20
Decree...not Degree....

Sorry, was bothering me.

I would also say that part of the Emperors anger may have stemmed from what Magnus had done to project himself over such a distance. They literally sacrificed hundreds, if not thousands of people. Not to enforce compliance on a conquered world, or to punish a population, but in an arcane ritual dripping with warp energy. Anyone would question the altruism of a man who would suffer such things to happen on their watch i would think.

Lord_Crull
06-11-2010, 23:44
Decree...not Degree....

Sorry, was bothering me.

I would also say that part of the Emperors anger may have stemmed from what Magnus had done to project himself over such a distance. They literally sacrificed hundreds, if not thousands of people. Not to enforce compliance on a conquered world, or to punish a population, but in an arcane ritual dripping with warp energy. Anyone would question the altruism of a man who would suffer such things to happen on their watch i would think.

They used Thralls as batteries yes, but I don't think any of them actually expected them to die.

DantesInferno
07-11-2010, 00:24
I am sorry and i mean no offence, but WHAAAAT?

This is 40k the world morally should not be used in the same sentence as 40k, this is the Imperium we are talking about acting morally is if anything a bad thing, you follow orders you follow the law you follow the Emperor or you burn.

I'm afraid I'm equally confused as you are. A topic of which characters are tragic heroes necessarily involves consideration of the morality of their actions and the extent to which they "deserved" their fate.

It's undeniable that Magnus was disobeying an Imperial decree, and that there was a possibility of punishment for this. But that doesn't mean that he did the wrong thing. At risk of invoking Godwin's Law, consider the Nazi officer von Stauffenberg, who organised a plot to assassinate Hitler during WW2 (and was executed for it). Clearly illegal action, yet also clearly a morally correct one.


In the case of Magnus i am 100% adamant that he got what was coming to him, he was warned not to play with fire but he could stop himself so he got bruned.

What is this other than a moral judgement?

Retribution
07-11-2010, 00:40
We have to remember that Magnus' warning message also destroyed the human-webway the Emperor was creating and opened a massive warp-rift directly into the throne room from which thousands of daemons poured out of

Lord_Crull
07-11-2010, 00:53
We have to remember that Magnus' warning message also destroyed the human-webway the Emperor was creating and opened a massive warp-rift directly into the throne room from which thousands of daemons poured out of

Magnus had no idea what the Emperor was doing. If the Emperor only told his sons what he was doing......... (Horus had the same problem as well.)

In fact why not tell Magnus about the webway? Out of all the Primarchs I would imagine he would probably understand what the Emperor was trying to do, and could probably help the most.

Son of Sanguinius
07-11-2010, 01:03
Magnus had no idea what the Emperor was doing. If the Emperor only told his sons what he was doing......... (Horus had the same problem as well.)

In fact why not tell Magnus about the webway? Out of all the Primarchs I would imagine he would probably understand what the Emperor was trying to do, and could probably help the most.

The Emperor, who has set up an empire that crushes all things xenos in order to fulfill humankind's manifest destiny, is going to turn to his generals and say "There's some alien tech I want you to help me play with"?

If the webway turns out to be not worth conquering, why present such an alternative to the incredibly arrogant Magnus?

Why tell Magnus, a comparatively foolhardy being on a question for perfect knowledge, that there is a place where the ancient Eldar have been hiding and keeping secrets?

What if the Emperor had already begun to comprehend the hold Tzeentch had on Magnus but still wanted to try and salvage his son into something useful? Why expose the webway as a variable in such an unstable proverbial equation?

What if he gets Magnus' help and then realizes they have to give up on the plan? Can he be assured that Magnus would not press on? Why run the risk of having to destroy a valuable asset? (Let's face it, destruction would be about the only thing that could stop Magnus from pursuing the webway further)

I find the typical lines "the Emperor should have just told everyone about Chaos" or "the Emperor should have just told Horus that he was working on the webway" to be stated from an uninformed position. Humanity can't handle the truth (why do I feel I need Jack Nicholoson for that line?), and neither can the emotionally and psychologically unstable Primarchs. What is that truth? That there are beings in a mirror-dimension that are even more powerful than the Emperor and that seek to undo all of the Emperor's works. Rapacious, relentless, terrifying, insane, sentient beings that cannot be killed.

Can anyone give me a reason why they think the Primarchs and the whole of the Imperium would stay loyal once such truth becomes evident?

guillimansknight
07-11-2010, 01:54
Decree...not Degree....



idiotPhone not intelligentPhone

Most typos on the Internet now are from that things bleeding autotext.
I hate typing initials on it it always changes them. ( oh and before anyone make a snidey comment about why I have one if I hate It - I won it.)


I think Angron is quite tragic, it must be soul destorying what happened to him. (probably made him go more than a little loco)
Lorgar ain't tragic in my opinion just being a ****.
And Perturabo is similar He seems only caring for power and glory and whines about being given "guard duty" - For the God-Emperor's (Daddy's) sake!! If you were in his situation you should be happy to serve In whatever way you can!

mob16151
07-11-2010, 02:06
What if the Emperor had already begun to comprehend the hold Tzeentch had on Magnus but still wanted to try and salvage his son into something useful? Why expose the webway as a variable in such an unstable proverbial equation?



Correct me if I'm wrong,but the Emperor was planning on using Magnus, to power/direct this webway. Right up until Magnus sent his deathogram. I'm thinking that if the Emperor knew Magnus was a Tzeentchian cats paw, his plans wouldn't have involved sitting Magnus on the golden throne.

Lord_Crull
07-11-2010, 02:25
The Emperor, who has set up an empire that crushes all things xenos in order to fulfill humankind's manifest destiny, is going to turn to his generals and say "There's some alien tech I want you to help me play with"?


Why not? He's led them fine so far. In fact He could just tell Magnus the truth and make up a story about a special gate he was trying to invent to the rest.

I doubt the rest of the Primarchs would care too much in that case.



If the webway turns out to be not worth conquering, why present such an alternative to the incredibly arrogant Magnus?


They won't know that until they get into the webway.:eyebrows:



Why tell Magnus, a comparatively foolhardy being on a question for perfect knowledge, that there is a place where the ancient Eldar have been hiding and keeping secrets?


Why not? With the Emperor there personally he could channel Magnus's strengths and keep him on a leash while making good use of him.



What if the Emperor had already begun to comprehend the hold Tzeentch had on Magnus but still wanted to try and salvage his son into something useful? Why expose the webway as a variable in such an unstable proverbial equation?


And now we are getting into ''what if's''. But anyway the Emperor was planning to use Magnus as a replacement battery on the Golden Throne. (From a Thousand Sons, taken from the Emperor's own mind) So appearantly he trusted him to do that.

And I would point out having Magnus on Terra could be a good thing. If something does wrong the Emperor is there on hand. Look how Louis the Sun King in France managed his troublesome nobles.



What if he gets Magnus' help and then realizes they have to give up on the plan? Can he be assured that Magnus would not press on? Why run the risk of having to destroy a valuable asset? (Let's face it, destruction would be about the only thing that could stop Magnus from pursuing the webway further)


Again getting into ''what if's'' here. If it does not work then destroy it. Plan and simple. If we can't use it then don't let it hanging as a loose link. Simple as that.

If the Emperor and Magnus working together can't figure it out then nobody can. Best destroy it then.


Humanity can't handle the truth (why do I feel I need Jack Nicholoson for that line?), and neither can the emotionally and psychologically unstable Primarchs. What is that truth? That there are beings in a mirror-dimension that are even more powerful than the Emperor and that seek to undo all of the Emperor's works. Rapacious, relentless, terrifying, insane, sentient beings that cannot be killed.

Can anyone give me a reason why they think the Primarchs and the whole of the Imperium would stay loyal once such truth becomes evident?

The Space Marines today are appearantly quite aware of the truth and for the most part are quite loyal. The masses of the Guard and most of the Imperium might not know the exact details, but they know that Daemons=Bad. (Although admittedly they do have the befit of being indocrinated into a religon of their own)

Heck, present them as another enemy, another foe to fight and you've solved half of the problems that plauged the Marines near the end of the Great Crusade. You don't even have to present them as more powerful than the Emperor, just strong enough to threaten him. We don't even have to make them into daemons. You can simply present them as a race of xenos who live in the warp.

(And yes I am aware that the excuse that there were xenos beings in the warp was use din the Horus Heresy novels, however there they were presented as mindless bottom feeders, and not actual foes)

HK-47
07-11-2010, 04:41
Where is the evidence of this?

Index Astates part one, which mentions that they where called the "Battering Ram of the Great Crusade", and also mentions that their high casualty rates as being one of the main reasons for their rebellion.

Lorgar brings this up when we makes his speech to the Traitor legions at the start of the Battle of Isstvan V.

Though I don't think he is a tragic figure.

eldargal
07-11-2010, 05:28
Actually, Oedipus was tragic because he brought it upon himself through his pride and temper. Had he not struck down a stranger (spoiler: his dad.:P) on the crossroads for no good reason the chain of events which destroyed him would not have taken place.
The same with Magnus, he was loyal, he tried to do the right thing, but it was all undone by his earlier pride and arrogance.

Anyway, personally I consider Magnus and Alpharius the two most tragic Primarchs.


I can see why you would view it that way, i do not. Oedipus and the like were tragic because they dint have any control over some aspect of their lives which would lead them to their ruin, Magus does not share this excuse.

Son of Sanguinius
07-11-2010, 05:52
Why not? He's led them fine so far. In fact He could just tell Magnus the truth and make up a story about a special gate he was trying to invent to the rest.

I doubt the rest of the Primarchs would care too much in that case.

Because if you've read the First Heretic and the original trilogy, you can see how well the Primarchs handle the knowledge that they've been lied to.


They won't know that until they get into the webway.:eyebrows:

The Emperor's capable of extrapolating the possibilities. If he's not entirely confident that his son can handle being on a leash in there, why would he bring him? And obviously he's not entirely confident, because he didn't say anything.


Why not? With the Emperor there personally he could channel Magnus's strengths and keep him on a leash while making good use of him.

I'm referring to what happens when the Emperor isn't around. The Emperor can't babysit Magnus, and when Magnus is off crusading he'll also be looking for webway gates. Magnus has shown a tendency to jump head first into threats, all the while supremely confident that his own ability is sufficient to handle potential risk.

It doesn't make any sense for the Emperor to dangle a huge carrot of knowledge in front of Magnus the Red Bunny knowing full well that he might have to tell him not to eat it.


And now we are getting into ''what if's''. But anyway the Emperor was planning to use Magnus as a replacement battery on the Golden Throne. (From a Thousand Sons, taken from the Emperor's own mind) So appearantly he trusted him to do that.

And I would point out having Magnus on Terra could be a good thing. If something does wrong the Emperor is there on hand. Look how Louis the Sun King in France managed his troublesome nobles.

We have to get into the what ifs. If you're not willing to contemplate the possibilities, there's no point in this discussion.

Magnus' has a hell of a lot more responsibility than a troublesome french noble. He's meant to be leading a legion at that point in the story, not tinkering on Terra.

I absolutely agree that Magnus' presence would have potential benefits, but there are also huge risks.


Again getting into ''what if's'' here. If it does not work then destroy it. Plan and simple. If we can't use it then don't let it hanging as a loose link. Simple as that.

If the Emperor and Magnus working together can't figure it out then nobody can. Best destroy it then.

I'm not talking about destroying the webway gate. I'm talking about destroying Magnus. The only way you're going to stop him is destroy him. He'll root out other webway gates. He'll continued to venture to places the Emperor has ordered not to go. You have to annihilate him or you have an awesome threat on your hands.


The Space Marines today are appearantly quite aware of the truth and for the most part are quite loyal. The masses of the Guard and most of the Imperium might not know the exact details, but they know that Daemons=Bad. (Although admittedly they do have the befit of being indocrinated into a religon of their own)

Space Marines in the current timeline have much more knowledge, sure. There are also significant defections amongst loyalists and only the highest echelons of Space Marine command know the serious truths of the nature of chaos. And the Imperial masses only understand the concept of demons in the way that we do- some distant enemy that the Emperor or God battles so regular folks don't have to.


Heck, present them as another enemy, another foe to fight and you've solved half of the problems that plauged the Marines near the end of the Great Crusade. You don't even have to present them as more powerful than the Emperor, just strong enough to threaten him. We don't even have to make them into daemons. You can simply present them as a race of xenos who live in the warp.

You can't present them as just another xenos enemy to be conquered and destroyed. They live in another dimension, a place humanity is not meant to go. You can't go after them. You can't take their territory. You can't fight them as you would any alien race. So what are you left with? Telling people that there is a malicious race out there that can strike from anywhere, which you have to tell them because otherwise they won't be sufficiently vigilant to fight back. Then people start looking into ways to better fight this menace, which involves the study of chaos, which leads to disturbing information that people can't handle.

This is a grimdark universe. Ignorance is the best possible situation for the people of the fledgling Imperium, and even for most of its highest officials. Keep them ignorant, keep them loyal, and keep them hopeful because without those characteristics, humanity is going to collapse in fear of what awaits them.

Grubnar
07-11-2010, 07:21
This again? :shifty:

Magnus was right, also wrong and an ******... I love his scene in First Heretic bearing this out too.

In fact, after reading First Heretic Im thinking its poor old misunderstood Lorgar whos gaining Tragedy points :angel:

Ofc its still Angaron who is actually the most tragic, poor boy got shat on from his crash landing onwards...

Ah, yes. Angron. But then again I think my view of him is very much influenced by Spartacus, Conan the Barbarian (the film), and Planet Hulk (the book).
So no wonder I see him as a tragic victim of events that he had no control over.

Also, I really like the "what if ..?" storyline in the Dornian Heresy. It was thought provoking to see how the heroes became villans and the villans heroes.

Lord_Crull
07-11-2010, 14:00
Because if you've read the First Heretic and the original trilogy, you can see how well the Primarchs handle the knowledge that they've been lied to.


No, Lorgar was an extreme example and handled very poorly. In the original trilogy the Emperor alos handled them poorly as well.



The Emperor's capable of extrapolating the possibilities. If he's not entirely confident that his son can handle being on a leash in there, why would he bring him? And obviously he's not entirely confident, because he didn't say anything.


Or maybe he did't think of the idea or he sucks as a parent. We know he already planned for Magnus to be able to handle the Golden Throne and act as his replacement, if he can do that he sure as heck can study under the Emperor.



I'm referring to what happens when the Emperor isn't around. The Emperor can't babysit Magnus, and when Magnus is off crusading he'll also be looking for webway gates. Magnus has shown a tendency to jump head first into threats, all the while supremely confident that his own ability is sufficient to handle potential risk.


Which is why it's best to keep him close on the most important project of humanity. Going by a Thousand Sons the Emperor already considered the Imperial Webway to be more important than the Great Crusade. And if they already have the webway completed there is no need for searching for more.



We have to get into the what ifs. If you're not willing to contemplate the possibilities, there's no point in this discussion.


No, at this point you are starting to bring in increasingly ludicrous scenerios that I'm going to have to point out.



Magnus' has a hell of a lot more responsibility than a troublesome french noble. He's meant to be leading a legion at that point in the story, not tinkering on Terra.


Except the Emperor already considers the Imperial webway to be more important than the Great Crusade. (Plus he meant to have Magnus power it anyway on the Golden Throne) and the principal is much the same. Keep your potential troublemakers close to you so you can watch out for them.



I'm not talking about destroying the webway gate. I'm talking about destroying Magnus. The only way you're going to stop him is destroy him. He'll root out other webway gates. He'll continued to venture to places the Emperor has ordered not to go. You have to annihilate him or you have an awesome threat on your hands.


If he feels he can do it then I would let him tinker around with it some more. Eventually he is going to have to stop when he realizes it's useless. And if he actually manages to get one work? All the better.

But that's irrelevant. Magnus appearantly would have gladly been on the Golden Throne is he was offered it (Going by Thousand Sons and he realizes what the Emperor planned for him) Appearantly going by that he would have chosen the Golden Throne over webway searching.


There are also significant defections amongst loyalists .

Not really. The biggest I can think of in the last millenium is the Badab War, and even then that was started by secular interests. Mostly the so-called ''significant defections'' are really individual Marines and squads going rogue. Actual entire companies and chapters are quite rare. Chodex chaos mentions something like only fifty Chapters out of a thousand over the past ten millenia. That's about 5%. That's not much.


and only the highest echelons of Space Marine command know the serious truths of the nature of chaos. .

Define ''serious truths''. Ciaphas Cain appearantly knows about the Warp, that there are Gods, he knows about each of them, and he knows they have daemons and Traitor Marines exist.

I'm pretty sure a Primarch can handle what he knows.



You can't present them as just another xenos enemy to be conquered and destroyed.

You don't have to. Present them as the boogyman from beyond. Real life dictators use this tactic all the time. The North Koreans even now see the West and America as the devil waiting to attack.


They live in another dimension, a place humanity is not meant to go. You can't go after them. You can't take their territory. You can't fight them as you would any alien race. So what are you left with? .

As said before, be the boogyman that you unite people against.


Telling people that there is a malicious race out there that can strike from anywhere, which you have to tell them because otherwise they won't be sufficiently vigilant to fight back.

You overestimate the Daemons. Despite what the Daemons codex wants to tell you actual full-scale daemonic encursions are quite rare. The Gods need mortal followers first and foremost. Teach people the ''Armor of Contempt'' so to speak and deny them mortal followers.


This is a grimdark universe. Ignorance is the best possible situation for the people of the fledgling Imperium, and even for most of its highest officials. Keep them ignorant, keep them loyal, and keep them hopeful because without those characteristics, humanity is going to collapse in fear of what awaits them.

Not really, we've seen plenty of people don what Ravenor calls the Armor of Contempt and fight back and refuse the daemons.

If you are not going to tell the common folk then tell the Marines and Primarchs at least. Ciaphas Cain knew at least the basics of how the Warp functions and he is still loyal and sane. I think you drastically overestimate the Primarchs if the Emperor himself were to personally tell them in controlled conditions. Putting aside obvious nutjobs like Curze and Angron, I am confident they would have done well.

nagash66
07-11-2010, 14:30
Which is why it's best to keep him close on the most important project of humanity. Going by a Thousand Sons the Emperor already considered the Imperial Webway to be more important than the Great Crusade. And if they already have the webway completed there is no need for searching for more.


I can see why some would think this but i would argue against it, why you ask?
The Emperor spend the last 200 years leading the crusade,finding his lost sons and making sure everything was going as it should. He then apoints a second leader who has his full trust ( the Warmaster). Only after all this does he go back to Terra.

But wait he also makes sure that a new group of people are in place to make sure the Imperium is going to work as it is supose to and support the crusade logisticaly ( the hight Lords of Terra).

Only after all this does he go back to his palace to work on the webway.
So no i cant see how we can claim he "considered the Imperial Webway to be more important than the Great Crusade".

He made sure the first would progress as it was suposse to with everything in place to ensure this and then moved on to another project, so if anything he put the crusade before the webway project.

As for Magnus i have said all i am gonna say as it will just end up in a never ending argument, diferent point of views and all that, but hey there is no right or wrong here.


I'm afraid I'm equally confused as you are. A topic of which characters are tragic heroes necessarily involves consideration of the morality of their actions and the extent to which they "deserved" their fate.

It's undeniable that Magnus was disobeying an Imperial decree, and that there was a possibility of punishment for this. But that doesn't mean that he did the wrong thing. At risk of invoking Godwin's Law, consider the Nazi officer von Stauffenberg, who organised a plot to assassinate Hitler during WW2 (and was executed for it). Clearly illegal action, yet also clearly a morally correct one.



In fear of having this banished to P&R i cannot fully get into this here, i will only say that in the Imperium right and wrong are not ideas to be argued over, the Emperors word = Right everything else is wrong on the worst possible level.
You want to argue with the Emperor play chaos or heretics, blind faith is the basis of the Imperium as the Emperor cannot lie since his words are the only truth.

If he says that a square should be a triangle and we find one that isnt so, we make it so or failing that burn it for heresy. That is what it means to be Imperial, no in the post heresy 40k era this gets pretty hard to work as the Emperor isnt really there anymore, but pre Heresy ? No problemo.

Lord_Crull
07-11-2010, 14:33
But wait he also makes sure that a new group of people are in place to make sure the Imperium is going to work as it is supose to and support the crusade logisticaly ( the hight Lords of Terra).


Actually the Council of Terra. The High Lords were former later.


Only after all this does he go back to his palace to work on the webway.
So no i cant see how we can claim he "considered the Imperial Webway to be more important than the Great Crusade".


It's straight from the Emperor's own mind when Magnus and the Emperor meet and exchange their mind information briefly. Magnus realizes that to the Emperor not even Horus's rebellion was as major as the Webway. Magnus is described as learning everything the Emperor planned and the Emperor everything Magnus did for him.

In the end the Webway was more important than both the Heresy and the Great Crusade.



He made sure the first would progress as it was suposse to with everything in place to ensure this and then moved on to another project, so if anything he put the crusade before the webway project.

Actually no, we don't know when he discovered the webway or decided to start working on it. For all you know it could have been late in the Crusade.

Son of Sanguinius
07-11-2010, 16:14
No, Lorgar was an extreme example and handled very poorly.

Nine Primarchs, possibly ten, turned. Of those we know Lorgar, Horus, and Fulgrim were all upset with what they came to see as the lies of the Emperor.


In the original trilogy the Emperor alos handled them poorly as well.


Or maybe he did't think of the idea or he sucks as a parent.

Your argument is "the Emperor handled it poorly and should have told them the truth." You shouldn't use "the Emperor handled it poorly" as a point to support that argument.


if he can do that he sure as heck can study under the Emperor.

Please explain how you came to that conclusion.


Which is why it's best to keep him close on the most important project of humanity. Going by a Thousand Sons the Emperor already considered the Imperial Webway to be more important than the Great Crusade. And if they already have the webway completed there is no need for searching for more.

Again, why is the Emperor going to babysit a general who is supposed to be leading armies to conquer the galaxy? And completed the webway? Do you understand the scale of the webway?


No, at this point you are starting to bring in increasingly ludicrous scenerios that I'm going to have to point out.

This is why people get pissed when arguing with you, Crull. ;)

My points may very well be ludicrous, but your disagreement isn't the qualifying factor, so don't be rude.


Except the Emperor already considers the Imperial webway to be more important than the Great Crusade.

That's an assumption on your part. For all we know, the Emperor may have decided that his sons could handle the conquering of the physical world and only he could conquer the "spiritual" world. This doesn't require the latter being more important.


and the principal is much the same. Keep your potential troublemakers close to you so you can watch out for them.

What about the butchers Russ and Angron? The terrorist Curze? The fanatic Lorgar? Is he to keep all of these troublemakers with him as well? He can't. They have a job to do.


But that's irrelevant. Magnus appearantly would have gladly been on the Golden Throne is he was offered it (Going by Thousand Sons and he realizes what the Emperor planned for him) Appearantly going by that he would have chosen the Golden Throne over webway searching.

What are you talking about? Magnus is presented with the vision of what the Emperor planned for him (presented by a demon, by the way) and doesn't want to believe it.

And it's not irrelevant. In this setting, the possibility of having to destroy and still loyalist Primarch is never an irrelevant thing.


Not really. The biggest I can think of in the last millenium is the Badab War, and even then that was started by secular interests. Mostly the so-called ''significant defections'' are really individual Marines and squads going rogue. Actual entire companies and chapters are quite rare. Chodex chaos mentions something like only fifty Chapters out of a thousand over the past ten millenia. That's about 5%. That's not much.

The point is that they are turning at all. Even from the first founding chapters. If you present them with an alternative, there is a chance they will turn. Downside to free will, as it were.


Define ''serious truths''. Ciaphas Cain appearantly knows about the Warp, that there are Gods, he knows about each of them, and he knows they have daemons and Traitor Marines exist.

I'm pretty sure a Primarch can handle what he knows.

The serious truths are the ones I explained at the end of my last post.

Again, nine or possibly ten Primarchs turned traitor. Obviously someone of them cannot handle the truth, so there is no guarantee that any of them can.


You don't have to. Present them as the boogyman from beyond. Real life dictators use this tactic all the time. The North Koreans even now see the West and America as the devil waiting to attack.

It's a little rude to make blanket statements about North Koreans hating another people. Moreover, even if that was true, "Americans" are still a people that can be killed and have a government that can be toppled. The United States of America is not immortal- in the Warhammer 40k setting, Chaos is.


As said before, be the boogyman that you unite people against.

Might as well start telling children that the boogyman is real and hidden in their room and then telling them to sleep tight. ;)


You overestimate the Daemons. Despite what the Daemons codex wants to tell you actual full-scale daemonic encursions are quite rare. The Gods need mortal followers first and foremost. Teach people the ''Armor of Contempt'' so to speak and deny them mortal followers.

Despite what the actual printed source material tells me, you're going to explain how it really is? Come on, man. Your opinion of the universe and how it should be is fine, but you can't use it to change the actual printed words. Unless your real name is Alan Merrett, I guess.


If you are not going to tell the common folk then tell the Marines and Primarchs at least. Ciaphas Cain knew at least the basics of how the Warp functions and he is still loyal and sane. I think you drastically overestimate the Primarchs if the Emperor himself were to personally tell them in controlled conditions.

One example of an incredibly strong willed human does not an argument make, and Space Marines and Primarchs are not more likely to remain loyal just by dint of being superhuman.


Putting aside obvious nutjobs like Curze and Angron, I am confident they would have done well.

I really don't understand how you can be confident when nine or ten of them turned. What you are suggesting is certainly a possibility, but the subsequent sequence of events dispute any assurity.

Lord_Crull
07-11-2010, 18:00
Nine Primarchs, possibly ten, turned. Of those we know Lorgar, Horus, and Fulgrim were all upset with what they came to see as the lies of the Emperor.


Only because the Emperor handled them in a rather poor manner. Plus they had addded external influences that would not normally happen.



Your argument is "the Emperor handled it poorly and should have told them the truth." You shouldn't use "the Emperor handled it poorly" as a point to support that argument.


Why not? He did so from my point of view.



Please explain how you came to that conclusion.


If the Emperor trusted Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne then I'm sure he would trust him to work on the Webway.



Again, why is the Emperor going to babysit a general who is supposed to be leading armies to conquer the galaxy?

Because he could be more useful with the Webway? A Thousand Sons already shows us that the Emperor considered the Webway to be of upmost importance.


And completed the webway? Do you understand the scale of the webway?


Yes I do, and so did the Emperor appearantly.



This is why people get pissed when arguing with you, Crull. ;)

My points may very well be ludicrous, but your disagreement isn't the qualifying factor, so don't be rude.


How am I rude?



That's an assumption on your part. For all we know, the Emperor may have decided that his sons could handle the conquering of the physical world and only he could conquer the "spiritual" world. This doesn't require the latter being more important.


Once again A Thousand Sons talks how the Emperor appearantly valued the Golden Throne and the Webway more than Horus's Heresy.



What about the butchers Russ and Angron? The terrorist Curze? The fanatic Lorgar? Is he to keep all of these troublemakers with him as well? He can't. They have a job to do.


Except they can't help him with the Webway, and at the moment they are more useful with their assigned tasks. (With the exception of Lorgar, who he was already taking care of.) Magnus was a different story altogether.



What are you talking about? Magnus is presented with the vision of what the Emperor planned for him (presented by a demon, by the way) and doesn't want to believe it.


Actually no. Pg. 447 of A Thousand Sons confirms it straight from the Emperor's mind. It describes ''unspoken understanding'' flowing between the two of them as their minds touch. Basically Magnus was going to be the Emperor's most powerful psychic tool for the Golden Throne and webway.



The point is that they are turning at all. Even from the first founding chapters. If you present them with an alternative, there is a chance they will turn. Downside to free will, as it were.


So in other words a very small faction of an otherwise vast loyalist bulk. That's not much of a threat or risk at all.



The serious truths are the ones I explained at the end of my last post.

Again, nine or possibly ten Primarchs turned traitor. Obviously someone of them cannot handle the truth, so there is no guarantee that any of them can.


Again that was in exenuating circumstances. I'm talking about the Emperor himself giving the truth to them, not some daemon.



It's a little rude to make blanket statements about North Koreans hating another people. .

So my Political Studies Professor was wrong then? No offense, but I trust him more than I do you.


Moreover, even if that was true, "Americans" are still a people that can be killed and have a government that can be toppled. The United States of America is not immortal- in the Warhammer 40k setting, Chaos is.


That however is not the point. They are still an external enemy.



Might as well start telling children that the boogyman is real and hidden in their room and then telling them to sleep tight. ;)


Why not? In the context it's a valid tactic.



One example of an incredibly strong willed human does not an argument make, and Space Marines and Primarchs are not more likely to remain loyal just by dint of being superhuman.


No, I disagree. If Cain can do it certainly the Primarchs can. The Emperor made the Primarchs to be superhuman, mentally as well as physcially.

And I would hardly put Cain as incredibly strong willed. Ravenor, yes. Eisenhorn, yes. Gaunt, yes. Cain? No.

I've already explained how the Emperor himself could explain it all. Half of the Marines and Primarchs only fell because they had daemons or other traitors twisting them.



I really don't understand how you can be confident when nine or ten of them turned. What you are suggesting is certainly a possibility, but the subsequent sequence of events dispute any assurity.

Except, as again most, if not all those primarchs were turned when daemons and traitors told lies into them. Instead I'm suggesting the Emperor personally and carefully explain the truth to each of them.

nagash66
07-11-2010, 18:20
Actually the Council of Terra. The High Lords were former later.

Quite right my mistake.




It's straight from the Emperor's own mind when Magnus and the Emperor meet and exchange their mind information briefly. Magnus realizes that to the Emperor not even Horus's rebellion was as major as the Webway. Magnus is described as learning everything the Emperor planned and the Emperor everything Magnus did for him.


By that point yes, but this is quite late in the crusade.



Actually no, we don't know when he discovered the webway or decided to start working on it. For all you know it could have been late in the Crusade.

You do have a point on this, however i would place my money on him knowing about it way before the crusade. My reasons?

The Emperor has been on Terra for 40k+ years he found the Dragon and played so much import in human history i find it against logic to assume he dint find/sense the webway before this.


And if he found it late crusade perhaps this was the reason he went back to Terra, he still made sure evrything was in place to go on without him in any case, if the webway was SO important he would not have taken the time/care to set up things like the council of terra.

Lord_Crull
07-11-2010, 18:24
The Emperor has been on Terra for 40k+ years he found the Dragon and played so much import in human history i find it against logic to assume he dint find/sense the webway before this.


Why not? The Emperor is not all-knowing or all powerful, depsite what some may say. In fact there exist Chaos cults on Terra itself in Nemesis (Going by the implications of the Slaaneshi icon with that noble's house) If that can exit under the Emperor's nose why not the webway?



And if he found it late crusade perhaps this was the reason he went back to Terra, he still made sure evrything was in place to go on without him in any case, if the webway was SO important he would not have taken the time/care to set up things like the council of terra.

How much time does it take to set up things like that? It can't be much, given the Emperor's charisma and organizational skills.

nagash66
07-11-2010, 18:33
Why not? The Emperor is not all-knowing or all powerful, depsite what some may say. In fact there exist Chaos cults on Terra itself in Nemesis (Going by the implications of the Slaaneshi icon with that noble's house) If that can exit under the Emperor's nose why not the webway?


Come now i dont for a moment think you cant see the diference between a group of wanabe chaos cultists ( and slaanesh at that probably just nobles looking for a reasons to go crazy), and a webway portal.

Its like saying why can we see a house but not a pin.



How much time does it take to set up things like that? It can't be much, given the Emperor's charisma and organizational skills.

Well given that plans were underway since before Ullanor ( the invitations for certain of his sons, etc) i would estimate at least a decade to get the cogs in place, but thats just my estimate.

Lord_Crull
07-11-2010, 18:36
Come now i dont for a moment think you cant see the diference between a group of wanabe chaos cultists ( and slaanesh at that probably just nobles looking for a reasons to go crazy), and a webway portal.

Its like saying why can we see a house but not a pin.


Why not? My point still stands. Things can slip under the Emperor's nose.



Well given that plans were underway since before Ullanor ( the invitations for certain of his sons, etc) i would estimate at least a decade to get the cogs in place, but thats just my estimate.

How would it be a decade? If the Emperor can see the future to a limited extent and going by his miltiary skills then he could be planning for that even in mid-campaign.

Son of Sanguinius
07-11-2010, 18:39
Only because the Emperor handled them in a rather poor manner. Plus they had addded external influences that would not normally happen.

"Would not normally happen"? Please explain that.


Why not? He did from my point of view. If I choose to argue it then I shall do so.

You've created a logical loop. You can't say A is true because A is true and expect to sound logical or coherent. I guess you can keep arguing that, but no serious person is going to take that argument seriously.


If the Emperor trusted Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne then I'm sure he would trust him to work on the Webway.

I still don't follow you logic here. Sitting on the Golden Throne is not tinkering on the webway. We don't even know how either actually function.


Because he could be more useful with the Webway? A Thousand Sons already shows us that the Emperor considered the Webway to be of upmost importance.

Can you give me a reference for that?


Yes I do, and so did the Emperor appearantly.

That is too much of a logical leap. Just because the Emperor has opened a single gate (hell, we don't know if he's the one that opened it), doesn't mean he knows what he's doing. For all we know, he's exploring. You're assuming too much and then using those baseless assumptions to support your argument.

You: "A is true because of B."
Me: "How do we know B is true?"
You: "Because B is true."


How am I rude?

Ludicrous means foolish to the point of amusing. It's rude to assume that you are in a position to judge my points as ludicrous.


Once again A Thousand Sons talks how the Emperor appearantly valued the Golden Throne and the Webway more than Horus's Heresy.

I'm willing to believe this, but I need a reference.


Except they can't help him with the Webway, and at the moment they are more useful with their assigned tasks. (With the exception of Lorgar, who he was already taking care of.) Magnus was a different story altogether.

All of that is your opinion, not facts to support an opinion. When I say Magnus' purpose was to lead a Legion, I'm restating published GW statements.


Actually no. Pg. 447 of A Thousand Sons confirms it straight from the Emperor's mind. It describes ''unspoken understanding'' flowing between the two of them as their minds touch. Basically Magnus was going to be the Emperor's most powerful psychic tool for the Golden Throne and webway.

Thank you for the reference. I agree with you on that now.


That's not much of a threat or risk at all.

Again, your opinion. A few in the current timeline is not the same as a few in the past.


Again that was in exenuating circumstances. I'm talking about the Emperor himself giving the truth to them, not some daemon.

The truth for a particular context doesn't change simply through the person relaying it.


So my Political Studies Professor was wrong then? No offense, but I trust him more than I do you.

That's your professor's opinion, and it is always rude to make generalizations about groups of people you don't know.


That however is not the point. They are still an external enemy.

How is that not the point? They are immortal. You don't go into battle telling your army that the enemy is immortal.


Why not? In the context it's a valid tactic.

Because the child has a considerable chance of suffering psychological issues if you tell him or her that the horrors of his imagination are actually real and seeking to prey upon him or her.

Which...wait for it...is exactly what happened to a great many of the Emperor's servants, children, and allies.


No, I disagree. If Cain can do it certainly the Primarchs can. The Emperor made the Primarchs to be superhuman, mentally as well as physcially.

And I would hardly put Cain as incredibly strong willed. Ravenor, yes. Eisenhorn, yes. Gaunt, yes. Cain? No.

I haven't read most of the Cain series, but did Cain turn traitor? Because nine or possibly ten Primarchs did.


I've already explained how the Emperor himself could explain it all. Half of the Marines and Primarchs only fell because they had daemons or other traitors twisting them.

Not only is that wrong, but it would be really bad writing. The Primarchs and Space Marines were perfectly capable of falling because of their own flaws.


Except, as again most, if not all those primarchs were turned when daemons and traitors told lies into them.

That's just incorrect. I can explain why each of them turned, but I don't have the motivation to unless you want me to.

nagash66
07-11-2010, 18:42
How would it be a decade? If the Emperor can see the future to a limited extent and going by his miltiary skills then he could be planning for that even in mid-campaign.

Yes but he still needs to wait for the rest of the Imperium to play catch up afterwards.

Ok say he wants to build a factory on planet A,B,C and D.
He sends a message to Terra ( other command hub) that this needs to be done, this could take 1 min could take 1 year thats the warp.
Terra then looks at what resources this will need where they are, how to move them, manpower issues etc etc.
Orders are sent out que more astropathic fun.
Resources are gathered as per orders and everything gets together.
Factorys are done, word of this is sent back to Terra.

How long would it take to do this normally? 1 years, how long thanks to what the Imperium has to deal with? 3 years.

Look at the first Heretic and lorgars fleet, even tho he want crazy with the speed, he lost ships he took the fastest routes, it still took him MONTHS to just get to a planet he wanted.

This is 40 k( 30k) things take time. Even if they are ordered by the Emperor himself.

Logistics 101 you are only as fast as youre slowest link.

Lord_Crull
07-11-2010, 18:54
"Would not normally happen"? Please explain that.


Daemons and traitors don't normally try to subvert your military forces Pre-Heresy. The Emperor might have not expected that. After all it's never happened before like that.



You've created a logical loop. You can't say A is true because A is true and expect to sound logical or coherent. I guess you can keep arguing that, but no serious person is going to take that argument seriously.


I'm not quite sure what you are saying, but at this point I'm not quite sure I care about that point.



I still don't follow you logic here. Sitting on the Golden Throne is not tinkering on the webway. We don't even know how either actually function.


It's not a question of skill entirely but also of trust. If Magnus can be trusted to sit on the Golden Throne he can be trusted to work on the Webway.



Can you give me a reference for that?


Pg. 446 and 447 of a Thousand Sons. The message of Horus's betrayal is described as basically being ignored by the Emperor (Or at least that's how I interpreted it.)



That is too much of a logical leap. Just because the Emperor has opened a single gate (hell, we don't know if he's the one that opened it), doesn't mean he knows what he's doing. For all we know, he's exploring. You're assuming too much and then using those baseless assumptions to support your argument.

You: "A is true because of B."
Me: "How do we know B is true?"
You: "Because B is true."


Why not? Collected Visions tells us he intended to use the Webway to transport troops across the galaxy and elimininate Humanity's reliance on warp travel. I don't see how that's too much of a logical leap.



Ludicrous means foolish to the point of amusing. It's rude to assume that you are in a position to judge my points as ludicrous.


I fail to see how that is considered rude.



I'm willing to believe this, but I need a reference.


See 446-447.



All of that is your opinion, not facts to support an opinion. When I say Magnus' purpose was to lead a Legion, I'm restating published GW statements.


I'm not arguing that Magnus was not meant to be a general. I am arguing he could have been used for a general or he could have been used as a psychic battery or engineer.



Again, your opinion. A few in the current timeline is not the same as a few in the past.


Why not? Remember, the Emperor himself is still around to inspect each Legion if needed. I would argue even less would turn if the Emperor would launch regular monitering of them.



The truth for a particular context doesn't change simply through the person relaying it.


Yes it does. Obviously the daemons are going to twist the truth to suit them. While the Emperor would obviously twist it to make him sound better.



That's your professor's opinion, and it is always rude to make generalizations about groups of people you don't know.


Again, I trust him more than I do you.



How is that not the point? They are immortal. You don't go into battle telling your army that the enemy is immortal.


Which is why you tell them that you banish them. Marines are susposedly fearless rememeber? (Heck, Russ would probably celebrate at facing an enemy he can kill over and over again)



Because the child has a considerable chance of suffering psychological issues if you tell him or her that the horrors of his imagination are actually real and seeking to prey upon him or her.

Which...wait for it...is exactly what happened to a great many of the Emperor's servants, children, and allies.


No it's not, putting aside the fact that the Astartes and Primarchs are not immature children, in this case it would be the parents telling the child. In the actual Heresy it was more like the mosnter creeping out from under the bed to chat with the child.



I haven't read most of the Cain series, but did Cain turn traitor? Because nine or possibly ten Primarchs did.


While in extenating circumstances. If the Emperor had been the one to carefully do it I doubt they would be turned traitor.



Not only is that wrong, but it would be really bad writing. The Primarchs and Space Marines were perfectly capable of falling because of their own flaws.


That is your opinion.



That's just incorrect. I can explain why each of them turned, but I don't have the motivation to unless you want me to.

Again, I disagree.

To be blunt I don't really care if you explain or not. I don't even care much about this subject actually. I only really responded to Nagash66 and then I made a rather minor add on post. At this point I'm only responding to your posts in order to defend myself. I disagree with you of course, but it's not that important to me. (At this point I have alot of things I would much rather be doing right now, than arguing with you in something that goes around and around. I'm sure you feel the same way)

Son of Sanguinius
07-11-2010, 19:00
Well, if you're not interested in the conversation anymore, I won't try to prolong it. :D

Thanatos_elNyx
08-11-2010, 11:16
I do believe the Thousand Sons are the most tragic Legion.
It is the main reason I play them. Just look at my sig ;)

That is not to say that other Legions are close runners; Angron, Lion/Luthur, etc are all up there.

One thing that does annoy me though is when people say the Space Wolves are the goodyiest Legion evar! They equally broke an Order from the Emperor; but are never called on it! But I shall hold off on that argument until after Prospero Burns (they may retcon the fluff again).

DarthMcBob
08-11-2010, 13:28
As to the OP, I do believe that the Thousand Sons are the most tragic. They turned traitor because of a loyalist misled and lied to by the same traitor they ended up joining. I always wondered what might have happened if they knew that Horus, not the Emperor, was the one who ordered their deaths. The Emperor just told Russ to arrest Magnus, not kill him or his Legion.

MEcorp
08-11-2010, 16:38
I especially like how the Rune-priest argues against using psykic powers in the Council of Niktea (sp?). Its like "Warpcraft is witchcraft and is therefore bad. But the Great Storm isn't the warp, it's my own private realm of awesome and not even remotely dangerous." Stupid.

shadowhawk2008
08-11-2010, 16:45
I especially like how the Rune-priest argues against using psykic powers in the Council of Niktea (sp?). Its like "Warpcraft is witchcraft and is therefore bad. But the Great Storm isn't the warp, it's my own private realm of awesome and not even remotely dangerous." Stupid.

I interpret it as more of him arguing that the methods used by Magnus' Legion to manipulate and harness the warp are despicable. They use creatures of the warp as familiars of sorts in battle and this is revolting to him. Plus Magnus and his sons are obsessed with "dominating" the warp and gaining whatever knowledge they can. That just adds more fuel to the fire.

Night Bearer
08-11-2010, 18:44
Personally I don't think Magnus is terribly tragic. Tragedy is typically based on the unwittingly terrible result of a mistaken decision, rather than a knowing mistake or personal flaw.

Most of Magnus' decisions seem to be done knowingly, even if he's occasionally misled, and most these decisions are driven by his "flaw" - being psychic in an Imperium under an Emperor that strictly forbids it.

Magnus, IMO, is less a victim of a tragic downfall than the victim of his own hubris.

Lorgar seems actually closer to tragedy, in that he pursues the "Old Faith" in the belief that mankind needs gods, only to discover that the Ruinous Powers are gods unworthy of devotion (at least, this is Argel Tal's POV and Lorgar seems to accept it at the end of The First Heretic).

Beyond the primarchs, as far as the legions themselves go, I don't know if any of them are truly tragic. The World Eaters (psycho-surgery) and Night Lords (their training and conditioning seem to ultimately be viewed by Night Haunter as having made them villains) seem close, but again, these aren't decisions by the legions rather than what was put upon them by their Primarchs.

The main thread through the HH novels seems to be that the legions which fell did so out of arrogance and rivalry, which seem to be rather universal among all the legions. The main difference between who stayed and who fell is that, with the latter, their Primarchs are either the ones cursed (or corrupted) by flaws that the Emperor is intolerant of, the ones wronged (or who perceive themselves wronged) by the Emperor, or who are the ones turned by Horus after his fall.

I would in fact say that, at this point, the only real tragic character in the Heresy is the Emperor himself. Mostly because it seems that, especially in A Thousand Sons and The First Heretic, the Emperor's attempts to cull dangerous Astartes behavior (witchcraft and religion) backfires horrendously by helping to push two legions into Heresy, causing two of his biggest setbacks (Magnus' accidental destruction of the Golden Throne and the Word Bearers seeding the beginning of the Horus Heresy).

In those two books, it feels like the Emperor - knowing the true nature of Chaos - acts the way he does in an attempt to suppress these practices without exposing either Primarch to the true nature of the Warp. But because of this, his actions come off as unjustified which in turns drive both legions into pursuing "unsanctioned" activities.

Askari
08-11-2010, 22:48
I would in fact say that, at this point, the only real tragic character in the Heresy is the Emperor himself. Mostly because it seems that, especially in A Thousand Sons and The First Heretic, the Emperor's attempts to cull dangerous Astartes behavior (witchcraft and religion) backfires horrendously by helping to push two legions into Heresy, causing two of his biggest setbacks (Magnus' accidental destruction of the Golden Throne and the Word Bearers seeding the beginning of the Horus Heresy).


No, the Emperor was a fool who thought he could rein in humanity's curiosity - anyone with an inkling of human behaviour knows if you tell someone "Don't do it, because I say so and that's that" the person you're talking to will rebel.

He thought himself perfect, a flaw which the Chaos Gods capitalise on - he was as arrogant as any of the Primarchs who fell.


I interpret it as more of him arguing that the methods used by Magnus' Legion to manipulate and harness the warp are despicable.

The Rune Priest actually believes he isn't using the Warp when using his own powers, which Ahriman finds hilarious.

Night Bearer
09-11-2010, 04:39
No, the Emperor was a fool who thought he could rein in humanity's curiosity - anyone with an inkling of human behaviour knows if you tell someone "Don't do it, because I say so and that's that" the person you're talking to will rebel.
But neither the Primarchs nor the Marines are human - the former possibly (probably?) never were, and the latter are supposed to have undergone enough psycho/physical re-engineering to effectively no longer be human (e.g. lack of fear, lack of sexual drive).

Thanatos_elNyx
09-11-2010, 08:15
Primarchs and Marines may be Super-Human but are still prone to many human failings.

Johnnyfrej
09-11-2010, 17:45
Alapharus, well.... Alpharus is complicated


I love this quote.

Lupe
09-11-2010, 17:50
No, the Emperor was a fool who thought he could rein in humanity's curiosity - anyone with an inkling of human behaviour knows if you tell someone "Don't do it, because I say so and that's that" the person you're talking to will rebel.


The Emperor was a flaming idiot. What the hell is the point of creating twenty superhuman beings to conquer the galaxy for you if you aren't going to be honest with them? And it's not like he's giving them the basics in "where babies come from" The primarchs were eventually going to face Chaos, and the Emperor sent them in blind. That's even dumber than not having an inkling of human behaviour.

FlashGordon
09-11-2010, 17:57
The problem is that we do not know what the emperor thought. Wait and the HH series will (hopefully..) answer some questions.

It seems like it is being/will be discussed how the HH series so far have made the emperor look like an idiot and how to change that.

Night Bearer
09-11-2010, 18:15
Primarchs and Marines may be Super-Human but are still prone to many human failings.
Yeah, but they all seem to be warrior-related failings - i.e. pride, honor, the capacity to go beyond the pale in fulfilling their duties (be it with psychics or over-the-top brutality).

IE, even their "human" failings are more a product of their genetic-engineering than from true human emotion.


The Emperor was a flaming idiot. What the hell is the point of creating twenty superhuman beings to conquer the galaxy for you if you aren't going to be honest with them? And it's not like he's giving them the basics in "where babies come from" The primarchs were eventually going to face Chaos, and the Emperor sent them in blind. That's even dumber than not having an inkling of human behaviour.
This may be going way off-topic, but if I can be indulged a slight bit...

Speculating at the Emperor's motives, based almost solely on established Heresy background and the novels, I often feel reminded me of something I came across when I was reading a critical essay on the novel "The Portage to San Cristobal of A.H.". It's a controversial book, and a lot of the controversy deals with remembering the Holocaust. There's the well-known school of thought that evil is fought by "never forgetting", but there's another school of thought that actually champions forgetting, on the basis that retaining such knowledge only serves to inspire future generations to follow in its footsteps. In addition to real-life examples, the piece even used the examples of the movie Wizards (with the evil side discovering sealed-off Nazi propaganda) and the episode of Star Trek TOS where a Federation official tries to use Nazi Germany as a political model to bring order to a chaotic world, as examples in fiction of how "remembering" the Nazis often ends up continuing their evils.

Mind you, I'm not advocating that approach, only trying to explain that there is this argument out there that

My point being, I feel like the Emperor is treating Chaos as being so dangerous that the only or best defense against it is to limit its knowledge. This also seems to tie in with the original 40k background, where encounters with Chaos led to Inquisitors learning more, Marines being mind-scrubbed, and pretty much everyone else liquidated to ensure absolute minimal exposure and knowledge of Chaos amongst humanity.

MEcorp
09-11-2010, 18:17
Why should they change it? It's a better story this way. No ones right or perfect and everyone has flaws that eventually prove to be the undoing of everything.

I also hope that the HH books don't get any further into what the Emperor was thinking. I really enjoy the fact that he is just there and we (like the primarchs) have to try and decipher meaning from his actions.

Also although marines aren't human they seem to have been far more human during the Crusade and Heresy than they are now. And as for the primarchs, they certainly aren't human but that's not really any reason to assume they wouldn't have a similar nature to humans. The Emperor seems to have designed them that way, likely so that they can interact with the people of the galaxy and persuade them to the Imperial cause and not just have to kill everything.

FlashGordon
09-11-2010, 18:49
@mecorp i guess you answered me?

Problem is that what we are getting is a picture of the Emperor using doublethink and acts randomly and stupidly. One thing if he has a reason to do it, but we don't know, so now hes just an ultrapsyker who is completely out of touch with reality.
Not really what GW intended for him i think.

Lord-Caerolion
09-11-2010, 23:28
Why should they change it? It's a better story this way. No ones right or perfect and everyone has flaws that eventually prove to be the undoing of everything.

I also hope that the HH books don't get any further into what the Emperor was thinking. I really enjoy the fact that he is just there and we (like the primarchs) have to try and decipher meaning from his actions.


The problem is that we're not getting the image of someone who simply has flaws, we're getting the image of someone who cannot decide which way he wants to tackle vital issues, completely reversing his ideas on a whim. This is the person to whom an untrained psyker is seen as the most dangerous thing in the galaxy, and implements a galaxy-wide program to search out and train the untrained psykers, yet decides that Marine psykers should be left untrained and deliberately ignorant of their power and danger, and left unmarked within their Legion.
This is the person who screws over his meeting of Angron, unwilling to deploy troops to save the gladiatorial army below, and therefore all but guaranteeing the hostility, and eventual rebellion, of Angron, yet deploys troops straight away to save the troops of Corax, all but guaranteeing Corax's loyalty.

This isn't just character flaws on the part of the Emperor, it's just downright stupidity. One minute something is the most important thing ever, the next it's heresy to do it (but is still the most important thing ever if your name isn't Magnus, or any of the other Primarchs), and is back to not being heresy after his Ascension. One minute he can be bothered to actually do something to help his son, the next he can't be bothered whatsoever, and it's someone else who has to deal (and die) with it.

newbee
10-11-2010, 08:34
i know they're not a traitor legion but don't you think the legion of the damed is the most tragic? they are so tragic, they don't even have an ending yet.

Hellebore
10-11-2010, 09:09
The problem is that we're not getting the image of someone who simply has flaws, we're getting the image of someone who cannot decide which way he wants to tackle vital issues, completely reversing his ideas on a whim. This is the person to whom an untrained psyker is seen as the most dangerous thing in the galaxy, and implements a galaxy-wide program to search out and train the untrained psykers, yet decides that Marine psykers should be left untrained and deliberately ignorant of their power and danger, and left unmarked within their Legion.
This is the person who screws over his meeting of Angron, unwilling to deploy troops to save the gladiatorial army below, and therefore all but guaranteeing the hostility, and eventual rebellion, of Angron, yet deploys troops straight away to save the troops of Corax, all but guaranteeing Corax's loyalty.

This isn't just character flaws on the part of the Emperor, it's just downright stupidity. One minute something is the most important thing ever, the next it's heresy to do it (but is still the most important thing ever if your name isn't Magnus, or any of the other Primarchs), and is back to not being heresy after his Ascension. One minute he can be bothered to actually do something to help his son, the next he can't be bothered whatsoever, and it's someone else who has to deal (and die) with it.

You know, as much of a cop out it is (and will perhaps anger emperor fanbois as well ironically), perhaps all this is perfectly in keeping with the emperor.

As I see him, he's a conglomerate of thousands of souls and he's at the end of his rope. He spent the last 38,000 years in the background, manipulating from the shadows. Humanity almost succeeded countless times and yet they always failed. So he's finally had enough and decides to smash humanity into shape.

So the Crusade is completely out of character and he's never done it before. He's not used to working this quickly. He's also tired (38,000 years is a long time to fail at something). So perhaps different shaman personalities rise to the top of the pile when he's not focused and he almost appears to have split personality disorder. Because, really, he does.

And thus, the emperor, at the end of his rope, pushed beyond endurance and falling apart from the terrible strain of millennia of striving, cracks under the pressure.

Perhaps he isn't as all knowing and has a plan for everything, like Creed does. Perhaps what we are seeing really is just his unconscious breakdown...

Hellebore

MagosHereticus
10-11-2010, 12:24
You know, as much of a cop out it is (and will perhaps anger emperor fanbois as well ironically), perhaps all this is perfectly in keeping with the emperor.

As I see him, he's a conglomerate of thousands of souls and he's at the end of his rope. He spent the last 38,000 years in the background, manipulating from the shadows. Humanity almost succeeded countless times and yet they always failed. So he's finally had enough and decides to smash humanity into shape.

So the Crusade is completely out of character and he's never done it before. He's not used to working this quickly. He's also tired (38,000 years is a long time to fail at something). So perhaps different shaman personalities rise to the top of the pile when he's not focused and he almost appears to have split personality disorder. Because, really, he does.

And thus, the emperor, at the end of his rope, pushed beyond endurance and falling apart from the terrible strain of millennia of striving, cracks under the pressure.

Perhaps he isn't as all knowing and has a plan for everything, like Creed does. Perhaps what we are seeing really is just his unconscious breakdown...

Hellebore

i think it's the more generic problem of a bunch of different writers trying to write about the motives and actions of a character who is suppose to be much smarter than the authors

the only really way to avoid that pitfall is to keep such supposedly powerful and all knowing characters at arms length

oh wait, we suppose to be doing in game explanations aye? :shifty:

FlashGordon
10-11-2010, 15:56
As I see him, he's a conglomerate of thousands of souls
HelleboreStop

Where does it say this? According to the sources i have read he is a Man born of regular parents(malcador is rumored to be his father) who later discovered his psychic potential.

FlashGordon
10-11-2010, 15:59
i think it's the more generic problem of a bunch of different writers trying to write about the motives and actions of a character who is suppose to be much smarter than the authors

the only really way to avoid that pitfall is to keep such supposedly powerful and all knowing characters at arms length

oh wait, we suppose to be doing in game explanations aye? :shifty:

Problem is that the heresy series starts out having the emperor as the most goodie guy ever who wants the best for his people(Emperor of Dune style). But for every book coming out he seems to act in a way that will lead to mankinds destruction.

HK-47
10-11-2010, 18:32
Stop

Where does it say this? According to the sources i have read he is a Man born of regular parents(malcador is rumored to be his father) who later discovered his psychic potential.

Wait? Where did you get this? The Emperor was born of normal parents, but his soul is a conglomerate of the most powerful pyskers that lived before him, Malcador was not his father, the Emperor is also a couple thousand years old.

This is from the Realms of Chaos books.

FlashGordon
10-11-2010, 19:16
Wait? Where did you get this? The Emperor was born of normal parents, but his soul is a conglomerate of the most powerful pyskers that lived before him, Malcador was not his father, the Emperor is also a couple thousand years old.

This is from the Realms of Chaos books.

Collected visions states that the emperor is a mutant (pg10 age of strife) not a conglomerate of powerful psykers(good riddance to that theory).
Collected vision states that malcador the siggilite are rumoured to be (distantly, may refer to time)related to the emperor and was "blessed" with unnatural long life and we know he is a powerful psyker himself(pg15 malcador the sigillite).

I knew he was old, so is malcador. :p

Edit: I have realms of chaos(both) and happily watch the new fluff retcon that crap (imho).

nagash66
10-11-2010, 19:22
Edit: I have realms of chaos(both) and happily watch the new fluff retcon that crap (imho).

1) You speak HERESY
2)As collected visions is nothing more then a collection of artwork of a card game with some text thrown in i will stick to more valid and respectable cannon.
3) Reals of chaos are some of the finest books GW ever produced ( and since i am always right that ends the talks on the books right here :p).

Thanatos_elNyx
10-11-2010, 19:48
I'm with Nagash66.

The Collected Visions books were absolute tripe (but with some pretty pictures).
They were the first source of the retcon to the Council of Nikea where the Emperor banned Sorcery AND Psykers; as opposed to just Sorcery and allowing Psykers.

But that being said, none of your quotes contradicts the original fluff.
The Emperor was born like 50k years ago in Anatolia. He is the product of a line of powerful Shamen who worked together to be reborn in a single body.
Being a psyker means being a mutant. The Emperor is known to have fathered many children; so no reason that Malcador is decended from one of those.

Hellebore
10-11-2010, 21:28
Collected visions states that the emperor is a mutant (pg10 age of strife) not a conglomerate of powerful psykers(good riddance to that theory).


It says he is a mutant. It does not say 'he is specifically not what we wrote him to be 20 years ago'.

A psyker is a mutant. The emperor is a psyker. Having a soul gestalt does not change that he is a mutant.

In one of the heresy novels Horus mentions that the emperor grew up in Anatolia, which is where the realms of chaos books place him.



Collected vision states that malcador the siggilite are rumoured to be (distantly, may refer to time)related to the emperor and was "blessed" with unnatural long life and we know he is a powerful psyker himself(pg15 malcador the sigillite).


Sounds like a Sensei to me. They live for thousands of years and have amazing warp based powers.

Hellebore

Son of Sanguinius
10-11-2010, 22:03
1) You speak HERESY
2)As collected visions is nothing more then a collection of artwork of a card game with some text thrown in i will stick to more valid and respectable cannon.
3) Reals of chaos are some of the finest books GW ever produced ( and since i am always right that ends the talks on the books right here :p).

I didn't like a lot of the stuff in Collected Visions either, but as far as I know Alan Merrett had direct control over that stuff, so it has to be considered source material.

nagash66
10-11-2010, 22:14
I didn't like a lot of the stuff in Collected Visions either, but as far as I know Alan Merrett had direct control over that stuff, so it has to be considered source material.

But why?? It is a Artbook for a card game, since it is based on 40k and FFG ( it was there game right) put allot of money in to it they got a GW big dog to help out.

Why this makes it source material over book MADE for the purpose of 40 backround doesnt make any sense to me.

Thanatos_elNyx
11-11-2010, 08:15
Who is this Alan Merrett anyway.

He isn't exactly Gav Thorpe/Rick Priestley/Jervis/ etc.

Aiwass
11-11-2010, 10:13
To me collected visions is a great visual resource. BTW is canon. Is well knowed that canon tends to contradict itself, so what's the problem? Take the fluff that more you like and stop proselytism :p

Lord-Caerolion
11-11-2010, 11:22
To me collected visions is a great visual resource. BTW is canon. Is well knowed that canon tends to contradict itself, so what's the problem? Take the fluff that more you like and stop proselytism :p

There's contradictions in canon, and then there's "See people, that city exploding is exactly why we need to seek out and train each and every single psyker in the Imperium, so that stuff like this can't happen... Wait! What are you Legions doing? Training psykers?!? What the hell is wrong with you?!? You should never, ever, EVER train psykers, it's dangerous! Russ, go smash up Magnus' homeworld! That should teach him for doing what I said five minutes ago!"

This isn't two different sources contradicting each other, it's the same damn source. On one hand, the Scholastica Psykana is founded because "there's nothing more dangerous than an untrained psyker", and then the Emperor destroys Magnus for training psykers, while keeping the Scholastica Psykana active. Which is it, Merret? Does the Emperor think that every single psyker should be trained, or is recognising their abilities deserving of death? If it's the first, then why was Nikaea rewritten, and if it's the second, why did the Psykana get to continue, even though they were doing exactly what you blamed Magnus for?

Son of Sanguinius
11-11-2010, 16:35
Why this makes it source material over book MADE for the purpose of 40 backround doesnt make any sense to me.

No disrespect intended, but what does that mean?


Who is this Alan Merrett anyway.

He isn't exactly Gav Thorpe/Rick Priestley/Jervis/ etc.

Yeah, he's just the Overlord of GW's intellectual property. ;)

Lord_Crull
11-11-2010, 19:18
Who is this Alan Merrett anyway.

He isn't exactly Gav Thorpe/Rick Priestley/Jervis/ etc.

The Lord of GW's IP. Essentially he's the current GW fluff-master at the moment. To make any changes with the fluff you have to pass it through him first.

Correct me If i'm wrong but all the Codex writers and BL authors answer to him don't they?

Thanatos_elNyx
11-11-2010, 19:33
Thanks for the info.
How long has he held that position?

Aiwass
11-11-2010, 20:39
@ Lord-Caerolion, I think Lord_Crull explained that stuff in this thread just a few posts before...

MEcorp
11-11-2010, 21:46
There's contradictions in canon, and then there's "See people, that city exploding is exactly why we need to seek out and train each and every single psyker in the Imperium, so that stuff like this can't happen... Wait! What are you Legions doing? Training psykers?!? What the hell is wrong with you?!? You should never, ever, EVER train psykers, it's dangerous! Russ, go smash up Magnus' homeworld! That should teach him for doing what I said five minutes ago!"

Really it's more weird to me that the Emperor would create the incredibly powerful Magnus then not expect him to use his powers. Why make the greatest psyker ever if your not going to use his psykic powers?


Emperor destroys Magnus for training psykers,

The Emperor order Magnus punished for destroying the webway gate on Terra not for training psykers, though that obviously played a role.


while keeping the Scholastica Psykana active.

Did the Scholstica get founded before the end of the HH? I thought it, like most of the Imperial institutions, was founded latter. This would explain why it doesn't follow the Emperors vision as many things set up latter (the Ecclesiarchy(sp) anyone?) didn't.

Lord_Crull
11-11-2010, 21:51
Thanks for the info.
How long has he held that position?

I think since 2003 if my memory serves me correctly, but I'm not sure.

Son of Medusa
14-11-2010, 01:16
Iron Hands. The elite of the elite amongst their chapter, and their Primarch, are slain fighting heretical filth. Betrayed, and murdered by Fulgrim, his closest "brother" at that.

I pity the Thousand Sons, definitely; but I feel a real sadness when I think of what happened to the Iron Hands. Take that for what it's worth though, I play an Iron Hands successor.