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kurisawa
06-11-2010, 00:02
Hello guys,

Someone I know says he can't win Watchtower with his brets, no matter what list he takes. Any tactical advice I can give him?

K.

Grey Mage
06-11-2010, 00:35
A Grail Reliquae would be ideal to hold a building, of all the units in the brettonian army.

Of course, theres always the idea that the best defense is a good offense.

decker_cky
06-11-2010, 00:49
Does the Grail Reliquae fight as a single model in a building?

Korraz
06-11-2010, 01:42
It is a single model, it just had a higher unit strength, but it is a single infantry model.

russellmoo
06-11-2010, 05:01
If you start with the tower-

place a 20 model unit of bowman or M@A inside- place your BSB directly behind the tower within 12"- This unit will now hold the tower for 2 turns- long enough to switch it out with a larger 50 M@A horde unit- which with a stubborn re-rollable LD 9 should be able to hold out for 3 more turns- long enough to win the game- meanwhile your blocks of knight do what they usually do- flank and multiple unit charge to destroy the rest of your opponents army and or prevent nasty units like chaos warriors from assaulting the building-

If you don't start with the tower-

This is where the scenario becomes very difficult to win with Brets- attempt dwellers or any other magic missile on whatever unit is in the tower, plus fire on it with your archers (who brought braziers) in spite of the negative to hit- you do get to re-roll your to wound rolls- try and force a panic test every turn- you might get them to fail and run out- after whittling down the unit as much as possible (the goal is to get them below 10 models) charge with your grail knights- while they don't get lances, or horses they still are at Str 4 with 2 attacks each- ideally your Lord will be with them for this assault giving you a few extra attacks-

You could also try taking the Green knight- as long as the enemy unit doesn't have magical attacks you will be free to assault the building with him every turn slowly cutting down whatever is inside-

These weak and unreliable solutions are all I can offer, maybe someone else has something-

snottlebocket
06-11-2010, 11:42
If you don't start with the tower-

This is where the scenario becomes very difficult to win with Brets-

You get cheap catapults and no more guessing. Just destroy the tower and the rest of the game is lances and charging as usual.

Flash Felix
06-11-2010, 12:49
If you don't start with the tower-

This is where the scenario becomes very difficult to win with Brets- attempt dwellers or any other magic missile on whatever unit is in the tower, plus fire on it with your archers (who brought braziers) in spite of the negative to hit- you do get to re-roll your to wound rolls- try and force a panic test every turn- you might get them to fail and run out- after whittling down the unit as much as possible (the goal is to get them below 10 models) charge with your grail knights- while they don't get lances, or horses they still are at Str 4 with 2 attacks each- ideally your Lord will be with them for this assault giving you a few extra attacks-

You could also try taking the Green knight- as long as the enemy unit doesn't have magical attacks you will be free to assault the building with him every turn slowly cutting down whatever is inside-

These weak and unreliable solutions are all I can offer, maybe someone else has something-

Meanwhile, your lances should be looking to dominate the approaches to the Tower. If you can prevent the enemy replacing the 20 man unit, you have a chance of attriting them to the point where an assault might win. Your lances should charge any unit getting close enough to move into the Tower, even if this means that in the long run, your lance will be destroyed. Fortunately, you can easily get flank or corner to corner charges in, which will reduce the attacks back, and if nothing else, draw the combat, prolonging it, and preventing the enemy moving in.

Questing knights might be useful for the tower assault, depending on who is in there.

Finally, keep the enemy general and BSB away from the tower at all costs. Not easily done, but again, sacrifice knights to do it if necessary. Steadfast core infantry aren't so good if their general and BSB are dead or fleeing (unless they're Dwarves). This makes an assault much more likely to succeed.

Again, this may not be much, but it's a start. This is a hard scenario for Bretonnians, but that's the face of 8th Edition. Hopefully there are easier scenarios for you to play (I'm thinking Meeting Engagement).

Korraz
06-11-2010, 14:38
You get cheap catapults and no more guessing. Just destroy the tower and the rest of the game is lances and charging as usual.

You can't destroy the tower unless you are a giant rat on two feet and maybe a bell.

EnternalVoid
08-11-2010, 05:53
This is not a perfect solution in any regard but if you are planning to have Grail Knights or Questing Knights try to take the tower there is one thing you can do to boost their chances, give them the Banner of Eternal Flames. When assaulting buildings the flaming attacks will help alot being able to reroll to wound. With Grail Knights you would have 2 WS5 S4 attacks that can reroll their to wounds from each of them. Sure it is not as bad as some other armies can produce but at least it is something. If you soften up the unit first with artillery, magic, and even the random arrow you might be able to push them out, or at the very least make them take a break test. Lore of Life is good for trying to get them out with Dwellers as it will hit the entire unit, but you can also try throwing that cloak of thorns on the assaulting unit for some extra damage before fighting. Beast also would not be bad as you can give your Grail Knights +1 S and T, making them more survivalable and more likely to wound what ever is inside.

Aliarzathanil
08-11-2010, 18:22
Against any but the most hapless players, the Bretonnian player will lose the watchtower scenario.

Chiron
08-11-2010, 18:43
You can't destroy the tower unless you are a giant rat on two feet and maybe a bell.

Unless your playing with someone who isnt a dick and you discuss the possibility of destroying the tower before the game starts.

But I suppose discussing things calmly also cant happen if your a warhammer player.

Korraz
08-11-2010, 18:52
Houserules, and sadly this is a houserule (Good Job there, whoever wrote the scenario), are always a matter of your opponents and their tolerance.

enygma7
08-11-2010, 20:27
I'm thinking of collecting a bretonnian army and have been giving a lot of thought to this one. I think you really need to take the watchtower scenario into account when building your army, just like wood elves really need to keep blood and glory in mind when building theirs. Thanks to the people who mentioned flaming attacks, I didn't know that rule!

You need to stop the enemy getting a sizable unit into the tower. If they get a large unit or, lady forbid, chaos warriors into the tower you're probably finished. To that end you need to surround and isolate the tower from enemy forces with your army whilst a dedicated unit either takes the tower or assaults it. Your army should also aim to take out the enemy general and battle standard bearer to improve the chances of driving the enemy out of the tower.

If the tower has a unit or any size or combat ability in the tower your only method is attrition. I'd suggest taking 2 trebuchets and a prophetess with heavans magic to bombard the tower (comet is an ideal spell for killing off the tower garrison and thunderbolt works well too). Whilst grail knights and questing knights can be an ok assault force, they lose 2 points off their armour save for riding a barded warhorse so they aren't well suited to attrition. Plus they can't occupy the tower if they win. I think a large unit of men at arms is best and just try and grind the enemy down. This will be a lot easier if you can get some buffs on the unit like wyssans wildform, flesh to stone or shield of thorns.

If you can manage it, using transformation of kadon to turn a damsel into a mountain chimera will clear the tower pretty quickly :)

Once you have a unit inside the tower keep the general and BSB nearby at all times (or a unit of knights if not possible) to help keep them there.

Its not just brets that struggle with this scenario, of all the scenarios this one most benefits/nurfs certain army books. If your group is happy to house rule it using the building destruction rules on page 399 and the faq ruling on what happens if the building is destroyed might even things up.

envy
09-11-2010, 00:52
I'd never take the Brets to the tabletop without 2 Trebuchets, especially because of this scenario. If you don't start out with it, just fight to control the area around the tower. Your opponent will likely dedicate one of their most dangerous units to protect it, so you should be free to control the area around it.

Just drop rocks, arrows, and spells on the unit in the tower and let it sit there while you deal with the rest of the army. Once it gets to the last turn, then you hit it with your best unit.

russellmoo
09-11-2010, 03:16
I think "envy" has it right- wipe out the rest of his army- then on turn 5 throw six dice at dwellers then charge in with something hard hitting- if there is a turn 6 repeat-

It's also not about anything but a hapless opponent will win this scenario against the Brets- other armies also suck at this scenario albeit not a badly-

Skaven for one- if they can't destroy the tower- they struggle keeping a unit inside of it- given that at best they end up testing on a re-rollable 8- if you destroy the general and BSB then you might have units testing on steadfast 5-

Elf armies also struggle a little with this scenario as they tend to lack large units to hold the tower- making them vulnerable to losing the tower through attrition-

The real problem is that some armies- (in descending order) WoC, Lizzardmen, VC(how do you get a unit out of a tower that is stubborn on high LD and can regrow its losses), Dwarfs- are exceptional at this mission-

scruffyryan
09-11-2010, 05:50
Its part of the balancing factor of the scenarios, each scenario benefits or hoses one army type more than others, in theory its to push for balanced lists since you dont know what scenario you're fighting.

Throw a 10 point flaming banner on some unit and take the watchtower with it.