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View Full Version : What did Eldar armor look like during the fall?



Raibaru
06-11-2010, 16:38
What do you guys think Eldar armor looked like right before the fall? Do you think it resembled dark eldar armor? The guardian armor? Do you think they perhaps didn't really have armor because they were the undisputed rulers of the galaxy at that point?

Saunders
06-11-2010, 16:53
I'm sure there were hundreds of differing styles. Just think how IG regiments differ, and they're not exactly under a creative and expressive regime.

Idaan
06-11-2010, 17:07
They didn't use armour for fighting as there was no reason for them to fight. Their thinking machines did everything for them, including warfare if anyone was foolish enough to attack them. Now it's possible that they had fought as a leisure, either on blood arenas or in big game hunts involving intelligent species - in which case I'd say that the esthetics were similar to Dark Eldar.

Hellebore
07-11-2010, 02:00
At that point their technology probably would have allowed them to wear multiple overlapping energy fields making them virtually indestructible. Because they were fields and not physical armour they could have worn anything underneath, or gone completely naked.

Some of the more 'extreme sports' types might have actually joined the robot forces in fighting other armies, using weaponry that makes their current stuff look like children's toys (which they may have been back then :p). These kinds of forces may have looked a bit like a warmachine force with a 'warcaster' and their attendent 'warjacks', except of course that the eldar would have been immune to instant death and had a rerollable 2+ invulnerable save...

Hellebore

Kage2020
07-11-2010, 19:49
I've always been rather intrigued with the idea that the Eldar only really lost the most advanced "military" (and research) technologies. This makes it somewhat interesting to speculate at just what technology the Eldar have to hand. :D

Kage

Iracundus
07-11-2010, 21:27
At that point their technology probably would have allowed them to wear multiple overlapping energy fields making them virtually indestructible. Because they were fields and not physical armour they could have worn anything underneath, or gone completely naked.

Some of the more 'extreme sports' types might have actually joined the robot forces in fighting other armies, using weaponry that makes their current stuff look like children's toys (which they may have been back then :p). These kinds of forces may have looked a bit like a warmachine force with a 'warcaster' and their attendent 'warjacks', except of course that the eldar would have been immune to instant death and had a rerollable 2+ invulnerable save...

Hellebore

The interpretation of such extreme levels of technology may be jeopardized by the new Dark Eldar Codex. Now Comorragh is described to have existed since before the Fall, with the Eldar in it continuing on unchanged in their ways even during and after the Fall. So one might imagine their armor and weapons to be at least partially representative of pre-Fall trends.

Although I suppose one could make the argument their current stuff is not the "true" military stuff but rather hunting gear or other stuff adapted to be weapons in the way their Raiders are meant to be adapted from pleasure craft. However then one might raise the question of why a pre-Fall Eldar major port city doesn't have true Eldar military stuff.

Overall, I'm always a bit leery of the line of reasoning or justification of "Oh, that isn't the true stuff we could use but which we for whatever reason don't." A similar line of reasoning exists with the Necrons and how they are claimed to be not even using their real military stuff but just their harvesting equipment. Such justifications have a whiff of sour grapes fanboy reasoning of "I could have won if I had really wanted to..."

Kage2020
07-11-2010, 21:34
Alternately it just goes to show a serious lack of imagination on behalf of the game designers, or that people should just discard the idea that it is anything other than "Warhammer Fantasy in space."

It seems that the acorn has crept back to the tree...

Kage

Hellebore
07-11-2010, 22:29
Well Commorragh is described as decaying with new stuff built on top. It's also powered by the energy of captured stars. That kind of thing requires pretty advanced technology.\

The argument can also be given that the dark eldar need risk in their lives and deliberately wear light armour. The shadow field is an advanced piece of technology that is limited to the leaders of their society. Given the effectively post scarcity nature of the eldar empire, the shadowfield or an equivalent should be available to everyone, with none of the downsides.

Hellebore

Iracundus
07-11-2010, 23:01
Well Commorragh is described as decaying with new stuff built on top. It's also powered by the energy of captured stars. That kind of thing requires pretty advanced technology.\

The argument can also be given that the dark eldar need risk in their lives and deliberately wear light armour. The shadow field is an advanced piece of technology that is limited to the leaders of their society. Given the effectively post scarcity nature of the eldar empire, the shadowfield or an equivalent should be available to everyone, with none of the downsides.

Hellebore

Was the Eldar empire truly post scarcity? The existence of a port city and trade districts in the old pre-Fall Commorragh suggests not.

Remember that "post-scarcity" can be a relative term. From the perspective of an impoverished peasant in the ancient Bronze Age, modern life must surely seem post-scarcity with fabulous unheard of levels of convenience and comfort with nothing apparently lacking. Demands rise as more becomes available and possible.

Hellebore
07-11-2010, 23:28
Well the argument was that the eldar need do nothing in order to live in their empire so they fell into decadence. Where they literally only had entertainments to do. That sounds pretty post scarcity.

The trade system need not be indicative of needing trade to survive. It could have been in and of itself a pasttime that some eldar partook in. Or it could have been exclusively trade in exotic things that they couldn't reproduce, but non essential exotic things.

Like the gases of the Shadow Nebula that change colours based on the mood of the owner (the most lavish and expensive 'mood ring' ever devised) and so on. Their robot servants may have used the trade routes to move produce from garden worlds and so on.

If every eldar could live their life without ever doing anything except personal entertainments, that seems like a post scarcity world to me. That they had trade or indeed that things were moved around wouldn't change this fact. You could live in a society where everything is done by lobotomised slaves and still maintain the same level of indolence the eldar have. The slaves would move and procure items in trade for their masters' consumption.

The inferrence from the fall is that the eldar were so powerful they could spend their entire lives doing nothing but indulging their whims. Those that didn't do this became exodites and/or were ship crew that weren't exposed to this. This would indicate that people could choose to 'work' or not to work. That in itself could be seen as a lifestyle choice.

Hellebore

Iracundus
08-11-2010, 03:48
Well the argument was that the eldar need do nothing in order to live in their empire so they fell into decadence. Where they literally only had entertainments to do. That sounds pretty post scarcity.

The trade system need not be indicative of needing trade to survive. It could have been in and of itself a pasttime that some eldar partook in. Or it could have been exclusively trade in exotic things that they couldn't reproduce, but non essential exotic things.

...

If every eldar could live their life without ever doing anything except personal entertainments, that seems like a post scarcity world to me. That they had trade or indeed that things were moved around wouldn't change this fact. You could live in a society where everything is done by lobotomised slaves and still maintain the same level of indolence the eldar have. The slaves would move and procure items in trade for their masters' consumption.


I think we're having different views of what it means to be "post-scarcity". Post-scarcity doesn't have to just mean lacking in the basic necessities of life. Also as per my previous post, what is viewed as a necessity can vary depending on the time period. From the perspective of ancient peoples, the modern world can seem like a post-scarcity society. Many people don't work and have an existence on welfare. Their basic needs are met at a certain level. They would still have access to entertainments and services undreamt of to ancient peoples and still might appear indolent and rich by their standards, though not necessarily so by modern society standards.

The existence of trade networks shows there are still supply and demand issues since not everything can be procured or manufactured locally. Sure by human standards some of these things may seem like luxury items or even frivolous items, but that doesn't mean the pre-Fall Eldar viewed them as such, or that their absence might not be seen as some scarcity however minor.

Also, in the Dark Eldar Codex it says the decadence first began in those with power and the most ability to indulge in excesses (ie the nobles). This means even the pre-Fall Eldar had stratification and hierarchy, with some Eldar having more than others. By the standards of humanity, all pre-Fall Eldar may have been rich and indolent but it seems some were definitely "more rich than others". By some of the pre-Fall Eldar, perhaps some qualified as poor due to their lack of access to all the available entertainments or not being able to access them as frequently as the nobles.

Hellebore
08-11-2010, 04:04
Well they had limitless energy re the psychic engines. Limitless energy is afaik the prerequisite for a 'true' scifi post scarcity society. There is enough energy to produce anything. I mean, they captured stars to power Commorragh, the energy required to do that would be silly. They also had robotic slaves to do all the work.

I dunno, these things seem to suggest that the average eldar never needed to work and had everything they wanted at their finger tips. A noble eldar would probably then be a guy that could claim descent from an ancient eldar house. They probably have more stuff simply by dint of history.

The nobles were probably able to exert more influence over others than the average decadent eldar, due to the ancestral control of more resources.

But then, would the average eldar go to war during this time? Or would the 6 shadowfield wearing eldar just be a spoilt noble's son wasting his inheritence? A bit like the spyrers in necromunda.

When you get to unlimited energy and star capturing capacity, being 'more rich than others' is a pretty miniscule difference. It's objectively true, but because everyone else has access to pretty much everything, the fact that you can have 1001 stars in your garden vs the plebian's 1000 isn't really much of a deal breaker.

Hellebore

Iracundus
08-11-2010, 07:47
Well they had limitless energy re the psychic engines. Limitless energy is afaik the prerequisite for a 'true' scifi post scarcity society. There is enough energy to produce anything. I mean, they captured stars to power Commorragh, the energy required to do that would be silly. They also had robotic slaves to do all the work.

I dunno, these things seem to suggest that the average eldar never needed to work and had everything they wanted at their finger tips. A noble eldar would probably then be a guy that could claim descent from an ancient eldar house. They probably have more stuff simply by dint of history.

The nobles were probably able to exert more influence over others than the average decadent eldar, due to the ancestral control of more resources.

But then, would the average eldar go to war during this time? Or would the 6 shadowfield wearing eldar just be a spoilt noble's son wasting his inheritence? A bit like the spyrers in necromunda.

When you get to unlimited energy and star capturing capacity, being 'more rich than others' is a pretty miniscule difference. It's objectively true, but because everyone else has access to pretty much everything, the fact that you can have 1001 stars in your garden vs the plebian's 1000 isn't really much of a deal breaker.

Hellebore

Vast energy is not the same as unlimited energy. Modern society wields vast energies compared to ancient societies yet we do not have unlimited energy. Once again the scale can be relative. We can harness a sun's energy, but that doesn't mean we have unlimited energy. In 40K, the Craftworld Eldar draw power from the wraithbone core of their Craftworlds and in Path of the Warrior also by harnessing the radiant energy of a star. Neither of these options provide endless limitless energy. They are still constrained either by the rate at which the wraithbone core generates energy or by the star's output. In the latter case, in Path of the Warrior the star's output did not provide enough energy quickly enough for the craftworld to avoid human attack.

The existence of trade means there are supply and demand issues. There is no need to trade or ship things around if everything can be produced locally. Whether it is trade of collectibles, luxuries, or basic items, the existence of trade means there are local surpluses and local deficits. People trade things when they want what others have and when producing their own is either not possible or too inefficient.

The creation as documented in the DE Codex of Webway sub-realms is described as something done by the most decadent and powerful individuals (ie the nobles). Not every Eldar had his own personal Webway realm which indicates there were still vast discrepancies in the amount of resources one could command.

The "capturing stars" bit was also described as being done to power these realms. These were the endeavors again of the powerful, not that of the average Eldar. In particular, the Dark Eldar timeline describes how the "privilege and status" of the old noble houses was replaced by the Kabals. This means the old noble houses did have privileges above and beyond that of the average Eldar, and that these were significant differences if it meant they were at the top of the hierarchy.

Idaan
08-11-2010, 19:39
The existence of trade networks shows there are still supply and demand issues since not everything can be procured or manufactured locally. Sure by human standards some of these things may seem like luxury items or even frivolous items, but that doesn't mean the pre-Fall Eldar viewed them as such, or that their absence might not be seen as some scarcity however minor.

We know that the Craftworlds returned to the homeworlds only once in a millennium or even rarer. This indicates that they weren't trading in stuff that was first need articles.

With that in mind, I'd argue that they weren't so much post-scarcity, as post-singularity - their advances in technology have effectively made their needs and demands so different to ours that we can't apply modern market economics to them. Pretty much like the Culture from Iain M. Banks' series - while all-powerful and having all their needs instantly fulfilled in our and other races' terms, they still had to trade and wage wars.

Lord Inquisitor
08-11-2010, 19:45
Going back to the original question, I don't think just-prior-to-Fall Eldar wore much in the way of armour. Or clothes for that matter. They were busy engaging in the sort of activities that would give birth to an evil god of lust...

Col. Tartleton
08-11-2010, 22:09
I'd post some images but then I'd get banned. Two words: Latex

Sephiroth
09-11-2010, 02:11
The interpretation of such extreme levels of technology may be jeopardized by the new Dark Eldar Codex.

Hasn't "Supreme Overlord" Vect proscribed the digging up of the ancient Eldar worlds for their lost technology, though? That would suggest to me anyway that they're in the same boat as the Craftworlders' (figuratively).

mob16151
09-11-2010, 02:19
Hasn't "Supreme Overlord" Vect proscribed the digging up of the ancient Eldar worlds for their lost technology, though? That would suggest to me anyway that they're in the same boat as the Craftworlders' (figuratively).

Archon for life?

carlisimo
12-11-2010, 01:55
I would guess Craftworld Eldar armor better represents pre-fall styles. The Phoenix Lords wear it, and the craftworld culture is far more conservative (i.e. more likely to preserve old stuff).

Plus there's the fact that the Dark Eldar no longer grow wraithbone and have to manufacture all their stuff. I'd guess they developed segmented armor to make up for that loss.

massey
12-11-2010, 02:10
During the fall? I think that during the fall, Eldar armor would look like its inhabitant just had his soul sucked out. :)

TheLaughingGod
12-11-2010, 07:13
Archon for life?

The way the Dark Eldar political system works, all Archons are "For life" :D




I would guess Craftworld Eldar armor better represents pre-fall styles. The Phoenix Lords wear it, and the craftworld culture is far more conservative (i.e. more likely to preserve old stuff).
Technically, Phoenix Lords are post-fall. All of their fighting styles and weapons were invented/developed by the Phoenix Lords.

Interestingly, the Dark Eldar have lower tech than the Craftworlders in general. Consider their basic weapon: The Splinter rifle is electromagnetically accelerated, however the Shuriken Catapult is gravitationally accelerated. That's a HUGE difference for a weapon that everyone owns. Their ability to develop gravity control to such a fine point they can make pistols that use gravity fields to launch projectiles is significantly more advanced than that of a society that used electromagnetic launchers. The shredder is an example of a monowire weapon, however the CWE have larger versions that are even more dangerous (Nightspinner)

There's even a bit in the blurb about Raiders that says that they are capable of even keeping up with the Eldar skimmer tanks, which suggests that CWE Skimmer tech allows for heavier/larger objects to be moved faster than the Dark Eldar can. Even with their Aethersails Raiders have a hard time keeping up with a CWE Grav tank with Star engines. Holofields are arguably (at least in game terms) vastly superior to Flickerfields and CWE personal forcefield tech outdoes anything the Dark Eldar have (which the limited exception of the Shadowfield)

Direblades, Wraithlords, Wraithguard, Infinity Circuits and Wraithblades along with Spiritstones suggest an advanced understanding of soultech, but it's difficult to say if it's rivaling the Dark Eldar or merely in a different path of development. (Willing souls versus unwilling?)

Personal armour seems better as well, even Kabalite Elite Trueborn can only afford Kabalite armour, which although light and unrestrictive is pretty much ineffective protection, even against splinter weapons. Most CWE warriors wear a durable armor which also bolsters their strength and endurance as well as not hampering their movements or speed.

This all said, Incubi warsuits are one of the best pieces of personal protection technology you can get. They're all wearing Exarch armor.

Hendarion
12-11-2010, 07:15
I would guess Craftworld Eldar armor better represents pre-fall styles. The Phoenix Lords wear it, and the craftworld culture is far more conservative (i.e. more likely to preserve old stuff).
Drazhar actually doesn't look that much like a Craftworld Eldar, but won't have changed his suit since then even a single time. And Maugan Rha is also not a really friendly looking fellow.

TheLaughingGod
12-11-2010, 07:26
Drazhar actually doesn't look that much like a Craftworld Eldar, but won't have changed his suit since then even a single time.

I'll bet Chaos did it.

azimaith
12-11-2010, 07:39
The interpretation of such extreme levels of technology may be jeopardized by the new Dark Eldar Codex. Now Comorragh is described to have existed since before the Fall, with the Eldar in it continuing on unchanged in their ways even during and after the Fall. So one might imagine their armor and weapons to be at least partially representative of pre-Fall trends.

Although I suppose one could make the argument their current stuff is not the "true" military stuff but rather hunting gear or other stuff adapted to be weapons in the way their Raiders are meant to be adapted from pleasure craft. However then one might raise the question of why a pre-Fall Eldar major port city doesn't have true Eldar military stuff.

I was under the impression post War in Heaven and Pre-Fall the Eldar didn't really have equals to fight against. IE they just held orbital superiority and thus didn't need to invade with actual Eldar. I can't imagine them, especially in a universe ravaged by the Enslavers, ever really finding anyone who would invade them. The Necrons were all sleeping.

Actually, scratch that, the Orks would, of course, invade.

Anyhow, the Eldar could move stars around and the like, I don't imagine most of their fights even left orbit.


Overall, I'm always a bit leery of the line of reasoning or justification of "Oh, that isn't the true stuff we could use but which we for whatever reason don't." A similar line of reasoning exists with the Necrons and how they are claimed to be not even using their real military stuff but just their harvesting equipment. Such justifications have a whiff of sour grapes fanboy reasoning of "I could have won if I had really wanted to..."
Lol, that was from Phil Kelly if I recall. :) Who I suppose could also be dismissed by pigeon holing him as a "fanboy."

In any case, with a race as technologically advanced as necrons, whose to say their farmers aren't as "good" as their warriors. What do the necron "farmers" do, they kill things to feed their god. In the mean time they get their ass shot up/chopped up/whatever. What do "warriors" do? They kill stuff and don't feed their god. They still get shot up/chopped up/whatever.

The farmer and warrior do different things, I figure the warrior would just carry a more killy gun because it wasn't tasked with feeding its C'tan.

Then again, they could be referring to actual big systems in the War in Heaven, possibly referring back to the whole "Entire star systems swallowed by black holes..." ect. IE the necron answer to the Black Stone sized weapons.