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View Full Version : Are Guardians the CWE's frontline soldiers? Are they in every skirmish?



SgtTaters
07-11-2010, 01:24
Wondering about the Eldar fluff, are guardians always present in conflict?

The idea that I had is "so they're conscripted when they need more manpower and there's not enough warriors"

Which makes me think that most of the time, It'd just be aspect warriors fighting, with guardians in Epic engagements.

In novels/fluff with eldar battles though, how often do guardians show up compared to aspect warriors?

Iracundus
07-11-2010, 01:31
If you look at all the heavier equipment, from support platforms to war walkers to tanks, they are all manned by Guardians. Even Biel-Tan with its focus on the Swordwind, still has its heavier equipment Guardian manned.

The Aspect Warriors are more akin to martial arts warriors and special ops than just basic line infantry, and it must be remembered that the Path of the Warrior is as much about personal development and dealing with inner destructive urges as it is about killing others. Towards that end, the Shrines all seem to be focused around personal small scale combat rather than large scale impersonal destruction, like a super heavy tank might inflict.

Cry of the Wind
07-11-2010, 01:38
With that in mind I don't see a reason for Guardians to be present in a 40k sized battle. My view though is besides special missions suited to a particular Aspect you would see Guardians in many conflicts. After all anytime there is a large battle worth risking Eldar lives for it is probably a pretty big deal. Under those circumstances bringing out the Guardians would probably be a good idea less whatever evil towards the Eldar race they are trying to prevent comes to pass.

Eumerin
07-11-2010, 01:49
With that in mind I don't see a reason for Guardians to be present in a 40k sized battle. My view though is besides special missions suited to a particular Aspect you would see Guardians in many conflicts. After all anytime there is a large battle worth risking Eldar lives for it is probably a pretty big deal. Under those circumstances bringing out the Guardians would probably be a good idea less whatever evil towards the Eldar race they are trying to prevent comes to pass.

It depends on the Craftworld, to a large extent. Ulthwe, for instance, doesn't have many aspect warriors. So they rely much more on their Guardian squads than other Craftworlds do.

So banning Guardian Squads from the battlefield isn't really appropriate.

Besides, Guardian Squads are pretty much the only way that the Eldar can get a number of weapons as part of an infantry unit. It's not as if Dire Avengers can load up on Bright Lances, Scatter Lasers, and Flamers.

Cry of the Wind
07-11-2010, 01:53
It depends on the Craftworld, to a large extent.

True, also I think there are more Aspects than GW lets on. I really can't see how they can have a Dire Avenger aka basic trooper Aspect and not have some version for the grav tanks and Vypers. Even if they have slightly different vehicles or weapon fits it seems to be the kind of role that would do well with a specialist. Almost anyone can be trained to be a grunt, the pilot of the VTOL that brings them into battle, now that is a trade that takes some skill and dedication to master (not that I'm biased or anything... :p).

Iracundus
07-11-2010, 01:09
True, also I think there are more Aspects than GW lets on. I really can't see how they can have a Dire Avenger aka basic trooper Aspect and not have some version for the grav tanks and Vypers. Even if they have slightly different vehicles or weapon fits it seems to be the kind of role that would do well with a specialist. Almost anyone can be trained to be a grunt, the pilot of the VTOL that brings them into battle, now that is a trade that takes some skill and dedication to master (not that I'm biased or anything... :p).

You are missing what I said in my earlier post. The Aspects seem to be like martial arts and the focus on personal development is a primary consideration. That is why for example you can find Fire Dragons meditating over their weapons while surrounded by flames (ref: Codex Imperialis, p. 68). Aspects aren't "just" specialists like in a modern army, and their general up close and personal small scale nature of combat appears to be designed round allowing a way for the Eldar psyche to vent and deal with its destructive and darker urges in a visceral and cathartic fashion. I don't think abstractly blowing things up on a targeting screen would quite fit such a psychological need as well.

As for the skills needed to fly the craft, the Eldar as depicted in art (such as the rulebook) and in novels (Path of the Warrior) do seem to have anti-grav craft in abundance. The basic skills of piloting may already be commonplace in the populace, much like how driving skills are today. Some additional training may be needed of course, but one could say the same about getting Guardians to learn how to fire a shuriken catapult or man a weapons platform. This training, however much it is, does not seem to require the single minded focus and determination that is codified in a Path.

Cry of the Wind
07-11-2010, 01:28
I don't disagree that the Aspects are about personal development and the focus and control over violent tendencies. Based on the information I have read and what is in the Codex they are presented as the main combat arm of the Eldar race. It states that the Guardians are called upon when the threat is too great for the Aspect Warriors to handle on their own. The threat that requires this would be based on Craftworld strengths of course.

The skills needed to fly an aircraft aren't much more than driving as it is these days (nor do you need much training to learn to fire a weapon, becoming a Dire Avenger is more than that of course). I just think it would be appropriate to have a Falcon Grav Tank Aspect much like how there are Aspects for the fighters and bombers of the Eldar armed forces.

Iracundus
07-11-2010, 01:31
I don't disagree that the Aspects are about personal development and the focus and control over violent tendencies. Based on the information I have read and what is in the Codex they are presented as the main combat arm of the Eldar race. It states that the Guardians are called upon when the threat is too great for the Aspect Warriors to handle on their own. The threat that requires this would be based on Craftworld strengths of course.

The skills needed to fly an aircraft aren't much more than driving as it is these days (nor do you need much training to learn to fire a weapon, becoming a Dire Avenger is more than that of course). I just think it would be appropriate to have a Falcon Grav Tank Aspect much like how there are Aspects for the fighters and bombers of the Eldar armed forces.

Eldar Nightwings fighters and Eldar Phoenix bombers are piloted by Guardians. The BS 4 doesn't mean they are Aspects any more than a Fire Prism's BS 4 means the gunner is an Aspect. It can be ascribed to targeting gear.

Cry of the Wind
07-11-2010, 01:43
I going off what I read in Imperial Armour, it mentions that Nightwing pilots are likely to younger and less likely to have traveled the more dangerous and violent close combat Aspects, that implies that they are an Aspect themselves. Also in a BFG novel it mentions the captain of a ship once being part of the bomber pilot Aspect.

Not saying there aren't Guardian versions but it makes sense that there would be an Aspect towards piloting military craft. Just like how Storm Guardians come more often from former Banshee and Scorpion path walkers.

Hellebore
07-11-2010, 02:19
Aspects are also not 'medium infantry killer units' etc either. There was no aspect of Khaine that reflected that. Their 'aspect' component is a very poetic metaphorical one and the equipment design and fighting ethos of the aspects are just one of several interpretations of Khaine.

The Dark Reapers are the aspect of Khaine the destroyer, so their combat style is developed around this concept. As the aspect covers all components of the fighting a warrior may do, this means that Dark Reapers immitate the 'destroyer' in melee as well. This may be using the missile launcher as a two handed club delivering massive blows into the enemy, in a manner reminiscent of their ranged attacks.

Similarly the Dire Avengers are imitating the aspect of Khaine as a noble warrior, which is extremely vague. They may attempt to duel the foe on an individual basis, or fight phalanx esque in melee with a brother on each side, everyone protecting the other.

People see the battlefield role of an aspect unit and make the assumption that that is all they are, which is not the case.

Afaik, all vehicles used by the craftworlds are piloted by Guardians. There was mention of a piloting aspect, but this was in relation to craft used in space.

Hellebore

Iracundus
07-11-2010, 02:22
I going off what I read in Imperial Armour, it mentions that Nightwing pilots are likely to younger and less likely to have traveled the more dangerous and violent close combat Aspects, that implies that they are an Aspect themselves.

Actually it doesn't imply that, and you sourced your quote incorrectly. The source is Aeronautica Imperialis and it says the pilots are often those that "have yet to travel the darker Aspect paths". Having said that they have yet to do something doesn't mean or imply they are necessarily doing something similar.

By analogy, one could say a person has yet to do the more physically intensive jobs. Does that mean or imply they are currently doing a physically intensive job? No, it doesn't.

eldargal
07-11-2010, 05:19
It does vary from Craftworld to Craftworld, as witnessed by Ulthwe (guardian heavy) and Biel-Tan (strongly implied to field more Aspects, not explicitly stated*). There are also many Aspects we do not know about, some present on only one Craftworld.
Incidentally Guardians themselves are on a Path, just not one of the Paths of War. So it is quite conceivable that a guardian could be on a 'Path of the Pilot' and ultimately end up on a 'Path of the Fighter Pilot', though obviously this is just speculation. (page 9 of the codex states Guardians are recruited from civilian paths, and that there are innumerable paths).


Some Aspects are unique to specific Craftworlds. Others are common to most...(lists codex Aspects)

Iracundus
07-11-2010, 05:29
It does vary from Craftworld to Craftworld, as witnessed by Ulthwe (guardian heavy) and Biel-Tan (strongly implied to field more Aspects, not explicitly stated*). There are also many Aspects we do not know about, some present on only one Craftworld.


Biel-Tan is explicitly stated to field more Aspects, not just implied.



One thing that makes Biel-Tan so uncommon is the sheer number of these shrines scattered throughout the craftworld. ALmost every Aspect is represented with a shrine, and many of them with more than one. This sets Biel-Tan apart from her sister craftworlds, since unlike them she can draw on literally dozens if not hundreds of shrines, rather than just a few, to provide Aspect Warriors when the craftworld goes to war. - The Swordwind, The Eldar of the Galactic South, Index Xenos, WD 302

eldargal
07-11-2010, 05:39
You know, I thought it was* but couldn't find it in the Codex so I assumed I had imagined it, thanks for quoting that Iracundus.:)


*I based my own Aspect-heavy, high-birth rate 'reclaiming the Eldar Empire' themed Craftworld on Biel-Tan afterall.

Hendarion
07-11-2010, 07:41
Well, Guardians are required. You need Pilots, you need support weapons, you need someone to backup the Aspects with things that the Aspects themselves can't use.
There might be 40k-battles that avoid Guardians and maybe even fluff-wise battles entirely without them, but then you will need special Aspects to fly the tanks, to fly the transports (and not only the serpents, also the ones that brings the force to the battle in general, such as space ships), basically to do everything that is done apart from what the Codex-Aspects do.

NightrawenII
07-11-2010, 08:14
Incidentally Guardians themselves are on a Path, just not one of the Paths of War. So it is quite conceivable that a guardian could be on a 'Path of the Pilot' and ultimately end up on a 'Path of the Fighter Pilot', though obviously this is just speculation. (page 9 of the codex states Guardians are recruited from civilian paths, and that there are innumerable paths).
My thoughts exactly.
If Path of Seer include a Way of Warlock, which is practically seer focusing his psychic powers on the destruction of his foes. Then it's not far fetched to think that Path of Pilot include Way of Warmachine-pilot.

Eumerin
07-11-2010, 10:08
'Path of the Warrior' mentions an aspect called 'Crystal Dragons'. There's no information provided other than the name, however.

Iuris
07-11-2010, 10:31
I would say the guardians see action only rarely.

Primarily, Eldar are supposed to manipulate foes, perform surgical strikes and similar. A task where I'd expect the aspect warriors to be sent out quite often. The professional army.

Guardians, however, are like draftees - you don't activate your civilian population for military purposes unless there's no other way.

For example:

A Farseer spots a dangerous cult, and divines that killing the cult leader would slow the cult down enough in growth for the Inquisition to spot it in time, and a force of Wraith spiders and Scorpions is sent out to assassinate the cult leader. The only guardian that might be activated would be the pilot of their transport.

However, if they fail, and the cult starts to open warp portals that will make the world a threat to the craftworld, a major military intervention will be needed. The aspect warriors are not going to be enough, so guardians must be called to arms.

AlexHolker
07-11-2010, 11:11
Guardian squads made more sense back in 2nd edition, IMO. They went from being armed with Storm Bolters to Shotguns, which isn't a very good way for the dying race to keep their reactivated retired soldiers alive.

Cry of the Wind
07-11-2010, 12:57
Actually it doesn't imply that, and you sourced your quote incorrectly. The source is Aeronautica Imperialis and it says the pilots are often those that "have yet to travel the darker Aspect paths". Having said that they have yet to do something doesn't mean or imply they are necessarily doing something similar.

By analogy, one could say a person has yet to do the more physically intensive jobs. Does that mean or imply they are currently doing a physically intensive job? No, it doesn't.

I'm pretty sure AI just cut and pasted an Imperial Armour entry though I didn't have either book handy at the time. Either way it also doesn't exclude the possibility either.

All Aspects are is a path to be traveled to the exclusion of all else while on that path. I like the idea that a path could diverge to a more militaristic one. You go from Aspect Civilian Delivery Boy to Aspect Engine of Vaul Driver.

Radium
07-11-2010, 13:58
All Aspects are is a path to be traveled to the exclusion of all else while on that path. I like the idea that a path could diverge to a more militaristic one. You go from Aspect Civilian Delivery Boy to Aspect Engine of Vaul Driver.

Yep, delivering pizzas is all that different from delivering death and destruction after all!
In all seriousness, this makes perfect sense, and is exactly what I would expect to be the case.



Primarily, Eldar are supposed to manipulate foes, perform surgical strikes and similar. A task where I'd expect the aspect warriors to be sent out quite often. The professional army.

Exactly. The Eldar try to avoid open conflict all the time, and mostly engage in precision attacks. That would mean lots of aspects (you know, the guys that really know what they're doing). Guardians would only be called on when the aspects aren't enough to handle the problem. So Guardians would mostly be present in larger conflicts and certainly not in every small skirmish.

Hellebore
07-11-2010, 13:58
It would be VERY odd for an eldar unit to be an aspect and not be named. A nightwing is a vehicle, an instrument of war. If it's piloted by a specific aspect then it should be named, eg the 'Sky Harbinger' aspect. They have names for aspects without rules or models so something that does exist but without a name is a little illogical.

EDIT:

All Aspects are is a path to be traveled to the exclusion of all else while on that path. I like the idea that a path could diverge to a more militaristic one. You go from Aspect Civilian Delivery Boy to Aspect Engine of Vaul Driver.

This is untrue. Whilst there are many Paths and within those paths many directions or ways, the aspects are restricted to the Path of the Warrior. This is a case of all mackerel are fish but not all fish are mackerel. All 'ways' on a path are LIKE aspects, but they aren't aspects.

To be an aspect you specifically have to be an aspect of Khaine. That's why they're called Aspect Warriors - Warriors that emulate an Aspect of their war god. And all Aspects are on the Path of the Warrior. Thus you cannot be on the path of the courier and diverge into a militant 'way' of that Path. ALL militant paths are on the Path of the Warrior and all of them are Aspects.

A guardian isn't on a military Path when they go to war. They just happen to have training in equipment required to fight and are employed that way.

Hellebore

Cry of the Wind
07-11-2010, 14:17
Ok fair enough I'm miss using the word Aspect but as far as I can tell really its just another fancy name for Path. Of course I'm not up to speed on the latest Eldar stuff (nor the oldest) so maybe you could explain any other differences between them.

I still have trouble understanding why there wouldn't be an Aspect for a Nightwing equivalent. A Shining Spear is a super Guardian Jetbike, why not have a dedicated Nightwing style Aspect. Of course the probably is one but the GW writing has never mentioned it before, heck maybe the Slicing Orbs use them :p. Another example of unknown Aspects is the new FW ones.

I still think that Aspects should be the primary form of Eldar combat and the Guardians only show up when it really hits the fan. You don't help your dying race out any by sending in the militia to every battle. Yes I'm a pilot but that doesn't mean that I'm going to be sent over to Afghanistan to fly JTF2 commandos around, they have their own specially trained pilots for that.

Hellebore
07-11-2010, 14:34
In Shadow Point it is mentioned that there are 'Eagle Pilot' aspects that fly the eagle bomber. In the Index Xenos Biel Tann apparently it mentions the Star Eagle aspect (someone will have to verify this as I can't find mine).

A shining spear has a bit of a different role to a guardian biker though. Guardians aren't supposed to be charging their enemies, whilst the most powerful attack the shining spears can use requires exactly that.

As for the differences, I gave those in the previous post. Aspect warriors represent a specific aspect of Khaine and are therefore all on the path of the warrior. Being on the path of the seer and choosing to follow the way of the bonesinger isn't an aspect of khaine so it cannot produce and aspect 'warrior'.

Hellebore

Cry of the Wind
07-11-2010, 14:39
Just wanted to confirm that Aspect Warrior Paths are just special in that they are representing the war aspects of Khaine. Other Paths may in fact be grouped together under a word different from Aspect (perhaps all Bonesingers have a name but within that there are distinct seperate Paths). The problem being the GW stuff tends to deal more with the war and battle side of things and really isn't too concerned about the exarches of sculpting crystal or anything like that.

Thanks for the clarification. Did Path of the Warrior go into any detail of civilian Eldar? I didn't read that one.

Iracundus
07-11-2010, 19:22
In Shadow Point it is mentioned that there are 'Eagle Pilot' aspects that fly the eagle bomber. In the Index Xenos Biel Tann apparently it mentions the Star Eagle aspect (someone will have to verify this as I can't find mine).


It is not in there. I think you're misremembering a different source.

Idaan
07-11-2010, 20:16
Huh? Dunno which you mean, but it's in both.

The Imperium has encountered and catalogued dozens of different Warrior Aspects such as the Warp Spiders, Star Eagles and Shining Spears.


In times past, Lileathon had taken on the aspect warrior path of Amon Harakht, of Eagle pilot. That part of her which would always be of that aspect could well remember the surge of exultant pleasure which must now be filling the minds of the bomber pilots as they heard the over-excited, screaming crescendo of their craft’s infinity circuits and saw the bulky shape of their doomed target looming ever larger through the crystal-glass canopies of their cockpits. She watched the last few moments on the pict-skin screen, marvelling at the skill and artistry of the bomber pilots. She had seen this final killing stroke performed a thousand times, had performed it herself a thousand times more, but still the pleasure never left her.

Iracundus
07-11-2010, 21:12
Huh? Dunno which you mean, but it's in both.

My mistake, my tired eyes must have skipped over it while skimming.

However one thing that must be elucidated carefully is whether the BFG and Index Xenos are actually referring to the same thing. An "Eagle" is the name of an Eldar space bomber in BFG. This may or may not be the same as "Star Eagles" the Aspect. GW has had issues at times with re-using similar or even identical names. See Eldar and Tau "Pathfinders" for an example.

FarseerMatt
07-11-2010, 21:46
Thanks for the clarification. Did Path of the Warrior go into any detail of civilian Eldar? I didn't read that one.

It does indeed. Pretty much the first third of the book is all about Eldar civilian life.

One thing I wonder about Guardians is do they have to learn the same mind-dissociation techniques as the Aspects? They face most of the same psychological stresses on the battlefield.

spetswalshe
07-11-2010, 21:48
It would be VERY odd for an eldar unit to be an aspect and not be named. A nightwing is a vehicle, an instrument of war. If it's piloted by a specific aspect then it should be named, eg the 'Sky Harbinger' aspect. They have names for aspects without rules or models so something that does exist but without a name is a little illogical.

I don't think so. The background is more than flexible enough to allow exceptions - plenty of Craftworlds will no doubt have a Cold Rain Aspect to operate Support Weapons, or whatever - but also there simply isn't much written about the non-Aspect warriors to make such a statement. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see, with the new Eldar BL books coming out, vehicle operators (or some of them at least) turn out to follow Aspects that simply haven't been mentioned before. It certainly wouldn't even come close to some of the changes/clarifications made in the background previously.


One thing I wonder about Guardians is do they have to learn the same mind-dissociation techniques as the Aspects? They face most of the same psychological stresses on the battlefield.

Maybe they have an 'emergency' variant? Where a Seer leads them all in a dissociative battle singsong on the dropship down there. 'Onward Craftworld Soldiers', kind of thing.

Iracundus
07-11-2010, 21:49
It does indeed. Pretty much the first third of the book is all about Eldar civilian life.

One thing I wonder about Guardians is do they have to learn the same mind-dissociation techniques as the Aspects? They face most of the same psychological stresses on the battlefield.

In the 2nd edition Eldar Codex, a short story about Guardian jetbike riders seems to imply through showing that they do. One of the Eldar in the squad was a gentle gardener who was described as moving the insects off his plants instead of hurting them, yet once in war his personality shifted and he could not slay enough of the enemy.

N0-1_H3r3
08-11-2010, 05:23
Maybe they have an 'emergency' variant? Where a Seer leads them all in a dissociative battle singsong on the dropship down there. 'Onward Craftworld Soldiers', kind of thing.
As Iracundus has mentioned, there are examples to suggest that Guardians go through at least some psychological change in preparation for battle.

Personally, I imagine that this is the main reason why Warlocks so frequently lead Guardian squads - the Warlock, being a former Aspect Warrior, is trained in the rituals needed to harness what I tend to refer to as "the Warsong", and part of his training as a Warlock is focussed on how to lead others through some variation of that process and (more importantly) lead them back to their normal state afterwards.

AndrewGPaul
08-11-2010, 07:46
I'm sure it mentions that (some/most) Guardians have already walked the Path of the Warrior - as the saying goes, some things are like riding a bicycle. :)

Hendarion
08-11-2010, 08:06
I'm sure it mentions that (some/most) Guardians have already walked the Path of the Warrior - as the saying goes, some things are like riding a bicycle. :)
... some ... more isn't said.

MEcorp
08-11-2010, 17:34
So if Aspects are sort of sub-branches off the Path of the Warrior what are you when you just walk that path? I mean you must get some sort of military training before you decide that you really like blowing up tanks or something, so what do they call that stage? And why is it never on the battlefield?

Eumerin
08-11-2010, 18:09
So if Aspects are sort of sub-branches off the Path of the Warrior what are you when you just walk that path? I mean you must get some sort of military training before you decide that you really like blowing up tanks or something,

Nope. They don't. A craftworld citizen decides that he or she wants or needs to follow an aspect path and petitions the exarch leading the shrine. If the petition is accepted, then the eldar becomes a member of that shrine. It is quite possible and even likely that this then represents the first military training that the eldar has ever received.

Keep in mind that Craftworlds are big places and tend to avoid major engagements (i.e. the preference for surgical strikes with huge repercussions a decade later). It's likely that the number of aspect warriors who see combat in any given year is relatively miniscule. Given that, there should be more than enough time to train new aspect warriors before they get their first taste of combat.


Reasons for joining an aspect shrine will be quite varied. It's possible, as you suggested, that an eldar may decide that he or she really wants to blow up tanks. Or the eldar may be possessed by an incredible rage against the opponents of the craftworld and wish to learn how to channel it properly. It is possible that the eldar in question seeks to balance his or her personality with the teachings learned at one of the shrines. Or it is entirely possible that the eldar was bored and decided that joining a shrine was the only way to deal with this boredom.

In short, there are numberless reasons why an eldar may decide to don the mask of an aspect warrior.

FarseerMatt
08-11-2010, 19:50
What Eumerin said. It depends upon the mindset of the Eldar in question and what has brought on their particular desire to fight.

If you fear for your loved ones and want to protect them from harm, then you'll most likely become an Avenger.

If you feel your soul is out of balance and want to stabilise it by learning to mix rage with patience, then you'll become a Scorpion.

If you want to master your fear of death by becoming it, then you'd join the Reapers.

If someone has wronged you and you want to channel your desire for revenge into something useful rather than let it consume you, you become a Hawk.

If you want to confront death through a greater understanding of the infinity circuit, you join the Spiders.

If you want to see every last trace of alien filth removed from your Craftworld's territory, then you'll most likely be drawn to the Dragons.

If you want to purge the dark shadow of bloodlust from your soul with the light of ritual combat, you become a Spear.

etc

spetswalshe
08-11-2010, 20:00
If you really like the song 'Ride of the Valkyries' then you'll become a Shining Spear.

Idaan
08-11-2010, 20:29
... some ... more isn't said.


Guardian Storm Squads are formed from Eldar who were once warriors from one of the close combat Aspect Shrines such as Striking Scorpions.

Which is one of the four reasons why Ulthwe using "standing garrisons" of Guardians in absence of enough Aspect Warriors is retarded. The others are:
a) the fact that their other main fighting force, Warlocks, are also ex-Aspect Warriors meaning that if there are very few Aspect Warriors at any given time, there will be even fewer Warlocks at some point in the future - Warlocks train as Warlocks only for some time and not all Aspect Warriors go on to become Warlocks. It might influence the number of Exarchs as most Warriors move on to the Witch Path, but "Path of the Warrior" shows that there's no limit of students per one Exarch other than self-imposed.
b) Preponderance of the Witch Path over other Paths doesn't hamper the Warrior Path in any way - it is taken as one of the last paths in the life of an Eldar, requiring lots of amassed knowledge. On the other hand the Warrior Path is often taken as the first path by the young Eldar.
c) the whole point of using Guardians is that outside of the emergency, they are free to pursue their normal Paths, contributing to Craftworld's production and society. If Black Guardians are a standing army, then by definition Guardianship is the only thing they do. Not to mention the effect of prolonged warfare on unshielded Eldar psyche - the very reason the Warrior Path was created.


In short, there are numberless reasons why an eldar may decide to don the mask of an aspect warrior. You didn't mention being dumped by a girlfriend, which is also a pretty valid reason as seen in "Path of the Warrior" ;) In all seriousness, I'd imagine that a big proportion would be like this: frustration from interpersonal relations, unresolved conflicts with family, lack of inspiration, trouble with adaptating to new environment, hitting a dead end in a Path, general weltschmerz or getting drunk. In general, all the reasons that make humans pick fights or go to a shooting range make the Eldar daub their faces in blood and develop a murderous second personality.

Eumerin
08-11-2010, 21:20
You didn't mention being dumped by a girlfriend, which is also a pretty valid reason as seen in "Path of the Warrior".

Technically, it was unresolved anger issues - in part because she refused to become his girlfriend.

;)

And it apparently didn't work too well, either, given his tendency to get angry whenever she turns up later. :p

I think the real problem is that the main character was a bit of a self-centered twit, and the anger from his failed relationship was more of a self-justifying temper tantrum than anything else.

My understanding is that the next novel covers the path of the Seer, which suggests that she's going to be the subject of interest. I'm eagerly looking forward to her take on things...

And I actually made a conscious decision to avoid that specific one rationale for joining an Aspect shrine, given that the book still isn't all that old.



As for Ulthwe...

I think it's safe to say that Ulthwe simply doesn't do things the way that other Craftworlds do. For whatever reason - be it proximity to the Eye of Terror or some other reason - Ulthwe's Eldar tend to be more psychicly talented than the Eldar of other craftworlds. The upshot of this is that apparently Ulthwe's population feels a need to embark on the Path of the Seer much, much earlier than the population of other craftworlds. This then likely affects two things -

1.) The pull to join the Path of the Seer means that those who are on the Path of the Warrior feel compelled to leave before staying too long, and
2.) The tendency to leave the Path of the Warrior after just a short stay also means that fewer Eldar get trapped within the path, resulting in fewer Exarchs, which means that there are fewer shrines in which to train those who *are* interested in following the Aspect Paths.

So as a result, you have fewer exarchs - needed to train the Aspect Warriors - and shorter stays by those who are currently in the Aspect paths. Both work to decrease the overall Aspect Warrior population.

Col. Tartleton
08-11-2010, 22:07
In the BL story with the Deathwatch their main aspect are Reapers with very little else. There apparently was a Shining Spear aspect but it died out. The inner circle of Seers seemed to be encouraging it. They saw the Reapers as more useful and it appears to be a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts. The more reapers there are the more Eldar join the temple to the exclusion of the other temples.

As of the story (which appears to be post 13th crusade) there was only one Shining Spear left as opposed to what I read to be thousands of dark reapers.Which I'll be honest I'm quite alright with as the Dark Reapers are my favorite aspect and they fit with Ulthwe best.

Idaan
08-11-2010, 22:44
That. Story. Was. By. C. S. Goto.

And Eldrad had a pact with Slaanesh in it.

Cry of the Wind
08-11-2010, 22:54
Wow, I know Goto is bad but that is worse than most of the things I've heard about his writing. I'm not even an Eldar fan and I find that offensive...

FarseerMatt
08-11-2010, 23:25
And the other end of the deal was being held up by Lelith Hesperax.

That's the thing with Goto, some of his ideas and imagery are actually very cool, while others seem a bit too extreme. For example, with Eldar Prophesy you can tell that he wanted to write an Eldar character study, about the Fall and the psychology that led up to it, rather than about a typical craftworld. It leads to a degree of square pegs and round holes.

But that's another topic.

TheLaughingGod
08-11-2010, 23:46
Misconceptions about Guardians and Warlocks.
Okay, here's the thing: that 3rd ed blurb about storm guardians being former aspect warriors? Only appears in 3rd ed and is contradicted by every other publication. Former aspect warriors become squad leaders or warlocks. Even the current edition of the codex has not one mention of Storm Guardians being former aspects.

Warlocks are not "Guardian Leaders" they are essentially a different kind of Guardian. They have seer powers and warrior training and they can make use of these in battle, they are not "squad leaders" they fight alongside Guardians, but fluff-wise do not lead them. This is badly reflected in game because they are bought as upgrades rather than being parcelled out from Warlock Bodyguard groups

Guardians who were former aspect warriors traditionally lead Guardian squads.

Guardians are placed in roles suited to their current Path. Engineers and technicians are Support Weapon gunners, pilots and drivers become tank crews, etc.

Hendarion
09-11-2010, 06:12
Guardian Storm Squads are formed from Eldar who were once warriors from one of the close combat Aspect Shrines such as Striking Scorpions.
I agree, although that isn't mentioned anywhere else, it also isn't contradicted directly anywhere either. I wasn't thinking about Storm Guardians though, but about Defenders, Pilots, etc, etc.


It is quite possible and even likely that this then represents the first military training that the eldar has ever received.
It is not likely at all, unless that is the *first* Path in his life ever. Why? Because each (!) Eldar is said to have basic military training. So either he must be damn young (at which age do Eldar follow their first path btw?) to not have military training, which also probably means he is too young to follow a Path of a Warrior, or he is going another Path and will receive basic military training.

AndrewGPaul
09-11-2010, 08:25
So if Aspects are sort of sub-branches off the Path of the Warrior what are you when you just walk that path? I mean you must get some sort of military training before you decide that you really like blowing up tanks or something, so what do they call that stage? And why is it never on the battlefield?

As I understand it, you can't walk the Path of the Warrior without choosing an Aspect.

Of course, there's nothing stopping anyone coming back later for another go, in a different Aspect.

Poseidal
09-11-2010, 08:39
Guardian crew likely will suffice with their related path (e.g. driver, engineer for bikes, vehicle and weapon crews etc.).

I have an impression that Eldar are naturally adept to combat in a way more than many other races (not as much as Orks but...) so Guardians adapt quickly with a bit of training.

The thing about Defender and especially Storm Guardians is their role seems too visceral compared with the vehicle drivers (where it's much more detached in general) which seems to tread on the Aspects toes a little.

Defenders wouldn't be so much like that if they had a longer range gun as standard issue though...

Eumerin
09-11-2010, 16:43
It is not likely at all, unless that is the *first* Path in his life ever. Why? Because each (!) Eldar is said to have basic military training. So either he must be damn young (at which age do Eldar follow their first path btw?) to not have military training, which also probably means he is too young to follow a Path of a Warrior, or he is going another Path and will receive basic military training.

I would imagine that's going to vary from craftworld to craftworld. 'Path of the Warrior' actually gives us a couple of dedicated Eldar pacifists, who look at anything involving weapons with horror and have contempt for those "warmongers" who follow the various aspect paths. Think the contempt that a peace-nik professor holds for those "babykillers" and "warmongers" in the armed forces.

Ironically, of course, one of them is the main character, and we all know how that turns out... (also, at the start of the story a couple of his friends are Dark Reapers, and he's got a massive crush on a former Dire Avenger) The other character is a former mentor of his who is mentioned briefly, though I don't remember if he ever actually turns up. But the important thing is that this suggests that the protagonist has not, in fact, had any serious military training at the start of the book.



Of course, there's nothing stopping anyone coming back later for another go, in a different Aspect.

This is actually a requirement for the Path of Command (i.e. the path followed by Autarchs).

Hendarion
09-11-2010, 17:32
Well, yea, there will be refusals as in every society. But mainly all Eldar (the Codices actually *do* say "all") have a basic training, even if they have never visited a Path of War.

Azrael'sFury
09-11-2010, 22:04
I'm not an Eldar fan myself, but I pity you who are. It must REALLY suck having Goto as your main fluff author as opposed to McNeill, Abnett, or ADB.

Eumerin
09-11-2010, 23:07
I'm not an Eldar fan myself, but I pity you who are. It must REALLY suck having Goto as your main fluff author as opposed to McNeill, Abnett, or ADB.

We've got Gav Thorpe now.

:P

'Path of the Warrior' is a pretty good book that quite literally focuses exclusively on how the Aspect Paths work, and he's got a couple more in the pipe dealing with supporting characters in the first book who took different paths.

Carlos
10-11-2010, 08:34
In UK armed forces Id liken them to the Territorial Army (US Reserves) which are civilians with part-time combat training sent to war zones as a kind of rear-line troop to support the front line conflicts. They only get called in when the UK is directly at war with another nation as opposed to being part of a combined force. Thus the TA were never in Afganistan or Iraq (UN forces combined) but played a larger role in the Falklands conflict.

Guardians are supposed to be civilians that get called upon as a reserve line in larger conflicts. In your standard battle Aspects do all the fighting.
Tank crews are merely an engineering or pilot path and not pooled from the standard militia.

eldargal
10-11-2010, 12:00
That is how I field my guardians, jsut in vehicles or support weapons except in large Apocalypse games.


In UK armed forces Id liken them to the Territorial Army (US Reserves) which are civilians with part-time combat training sent to war zones as a kind of rear-line troop to support the front line conflicts. They only get called in when the UK is directly at war with another nation as opposed to being part of a combined force. Thus the TA were never in Afganistan or Iraq (UN forces combined) but played a larger role in the Falklands conflict.

Guardians are supposed to be civilians that get called upon as a reserve line in larger conflicts. In your standard battle Aspects do all the fighting.
Tank crews are merely an engineering or pilot path and not pooled from the standard militia.

Flame Boy
11-11-2010, 11:46
That's the angle I took with my Ulthwe army, there are a lot of guardians, but they are manning the War Walkers, Jetbikes and support weapons rather than milling around in crowds waiting for a battlecannon shell to land on them. :p

Retribution
11-11-2010, 15:35
That's the angle I took with my Ulthwe army, there are a lot of guardians, but they are manning the War Walkers, Jetbikes and support weapons rather than milling around in crowds waiting for a battlecannon shell to land on them. :p
But Guardians are the standing army of Ulthwe, they aren't akin to militia as on other Craftworlds

spetswalshe
11-11-2010, 17:40
I'm not convinced an Eldar actually needs formal military training. As long as he is fit (mental and physical fitness probably being a regular part of any Path) and capable with the technology and aware of tactics and suchlike then he's good to go. A quick hypnotherapy session can probably cover those, and the controlled environment of the Craftworld could easily see armour interface and weapons training disguised as entertainment. They don't need shouting at during bayonet training like we do; when you factor in HUDs, recoilless weaponry and personal targeting software an Eldar is probably already on par with a human soldier.


In UK armed forces Id liken them to the Territorial Army (US Reserves) which are civilians with part-time combat training sent to war zones as a kind of rear-line troop to support the front line conflicts. They only get called in when the UK is directly at war with another nation as opposed to being part of a combined force. Thus the TA were never in Afganistan or Iraq (UN forces combined) but played a larger role in the Falklands conflict.

I agree with your post except to point out that the TA have and still do serve in Afghanistan (unless you mean during the actual first invasion period, in which case I'm not sure).


(at which age do Eldar follow their first path btw?)

The Path of the Baby begins at 0800 hours. Aspect Babies may skip crying classes and go straight to the spitting up.

Sir_Turalyon
12-11-2010, 00:07
There is no Eldar path for basic tactical grunt, i.e. guy who does whatever he's told to, whenever he's told to, rather than constraining himself to role dictated by his specialisation. Even with heavy reliance on specialised Aspect Warriors, Eldar armies need some number of non-specialists doing odds and ends that Aspect warriors won't do or do only if the aspect is right. The pilots of combat vehicles and transports are good example, while gunner aspect is concievable an aspect of Khaine as taxi drver is less than likely. For each aspect there is a thing they won't do because it falls outside mindset determined by their aspect - maning heavy weapons (or diging latrines) for dire avengers, siting in cover with medium and heavy weapons for scorpions / banshees, going into assault for reapers etc. Having a tactical squad able to fill any niche or plug any gap as it presents itself is a neccessity; it's far more practical to keep one reserve Guardian squad that can do anything than to hold three or four different aspect squad in case one of their specialities may be needed.

The Farseer knows by divination that the flank is going to be attacked by squad of Guardsmen in Chimera and he has to fend them off, then assault other squad on their weakened position, capture and hold it. He can send some Dark Reapers to deal with transport, Dire Avengers to fend off passagers and hold objective and Scorpions to assault the objectve. Or he can send one squad of 20 militiamen with catapults, granades and bright lance, quite adequate for all of these tasks, and keep aspects on man theatre where Space Marines are to make an apperance.

Motsognir
12-11-2010, 17:00
You have to keep in mind, that eldar life realy realy long. during their live they go several Paths. Most of the Eldar going the Path of the Warrior leave it sooner or later and choose civillian ones.

The idea that the militia is formed from those former aspect warriors sounds logical to me.

massey
12-11-2010, 19:08
There is no Eldar path for basic tactical grunt, i.e. guy who does whatever he's told to, whenever he's told to, rather than constraining himself to role dictated by his specialisation. Even with heavy reliance on specialised Aspect Warriors, Eldar armies need some number of non-specialists doing odds and ends that Aspect warriors won't do or do only if the aspect is right. The pilots of combat vehicles and transports are good example, while gunner aspect is concievable an aspect of Khaine as taxi drver is less than likely. For each aspect there is a thing they won't do because it falls outside mindset determined by their aspect - maning heavy weapons (or diging latrines) for dire avengers, siting in cover with medium and heavy weapons for scorpions / banshees, going into assault for reapers etc. Having a tactical squad able to fill any niche or plug any gap as it presents itself is a neccessity; it's far more practical to keep one reserve Guardian squad that can do anything than to hold three or four different aspect squad in case one of their specialities may be needed.

The Farseer knows by divination that the flank is going to be attacked by squad of Guardsmen in Chimera and he has to fend them off, then assault other squad on their weakened position, capture and hold it. He can send some Dark Reapers to deal with transport, Dire Avengers to fend off passagers and hold objective and Scorpions to assault the objectve. Or he can send one squad of 20 militiamen with catapults, granades and bright lance, quite adequate for all of these tasks, and keep aspects on man theatre where Space Marines are to make an apperance.

Best point in the thread.

There are a lot of things that you have to do in the military that aren't glamorous. They don't have an Aspect Warrior for "unpack all these boxes" or "dig this trench". Sometimes you just need some guys to guard the munitions factory or gun down those civilians. Aspect Warriors use ritual weaponry and enter a near-psychotic state of mind when they go to battle. You don't have them do mundane tasks. You don't see Batman sitting there by the side of the road in his costume fixing a flat tire on the Batmobile.

spetswalshe
12-11-2010, 20:10
I don't know if that really sits well with the Eldar way of war, though; only the Guardians themselves would do anything so crude as stand in a trench. I'd also expect the Eldar to have eliminated the need for combat latrines by now. Essentially, they use an extremely fast, limited and precise engagement style; the only conflicts I could see that would result in latrine-digging and box-unpacking would be the massive ones where Guardians are already mobilised. In fact, I imagine it'd be only the Guardians who need such tasks done.

I'm not too hot on the path system, but surely it isn't so restrictive as to disallow Dire Avengers (who I had assumed were exactly the kind of tactical stand-in an Aspect army might need) from manning a heavy gun when it is absolutely necessary? Or to stop a Howling Banshee from cutting out the Howling for a few minutes in order to sneak up on an enemy (instead of having to call in the Scorpions)? I know that the Dark Reaper's credo involves death from afar, but Maugan Ra quite obviously does not allow that to stop him handing everything it's own face in close combat. You don't need eight Aspect squads to do the work of one Guardian squad; pretty much any Aspect should handle most combat as well as a Guardian, and one aspect much better.

I mean, sure, they all know what they're best at - but if a munitions depot needs guarding, they can all do it to some degree without needing to conscript Guardians down. Dire Avengers would defend it much as a Guardian squad might; Scorpions would hide out in the ruins surrounding it and wait for the enemy to stumble past; Dark Reapers would stand on the rooftops and scream for them to bring it on.

True, you don't see Batman fixing a flat on his 'mobile; but then again, do you really expect him to call Alfred to come and fix it for him while he leans on the hood and smokes a pipe?

Col. Tartleton
12-11-2010, 20:23
Look at it this way, a first time Eldar Guardian is going to be twice the soldier a seasoned run of the mill guardsman will ever be.

By far, better gear, superhuman athleticism, and not least of all being in the finest outfit/racket in the galaxy. The *Insert Craftworld* Volunteer Marine Reserve Service Corps...

Okay Mr brilliant human strategist, predict a formation of shuriken cannon armed jetbikes emerging at 160 miles an hour, guns a blazing, from that webway gate right beneath you... no, you can't.

And that's why you needn't rely on Aspect Warriors for anything short of a Squad of Ultramarines... :p

Retribution
12-11-2010, 21:52
Look at it this way, a first time Eldar Guardian is going to be twice the soldier a seasoned run of the mill guardsman will ever be.

By far, better gear, superhuman athleticism, and not least of all being in the finest outfit/racket in the galaxy. The *Insert Craftworld* Volunteer Marine Reserve Service Corps...

Okay Mr brilliant human strategist, predict a formation of shuriken cannon armed jetbikes emerging at 160 miles an hour, guns a blazing, from that webway gate right beneath you... no, you can't.

And that's why you needn't rely on Aspect Warriors for anything short of a Squad of Ultramarines... :p

With their wife-beater teeshirts and their shotguns all shall fear the mighty guardian :P

Sir_Turalyon
13-11-2010, 13:11
I don't know if that really sits well with the Eldar way of war, though; only the Guardians themselves would do anything so crude as stand in a trench. I'd also expect the Eldar to have eliminated the need for combat latrines by now. Essentially, they use an extremely fast, limited and precise engagement style; the only conflicts I could see that would result in latrine-digging and box-unpacking would be the massive ones where Guardians are already mobilised. In fact, I imagine it'd be only the Guardians who need such tasks done.

I'm not too hot on the path system, but surely it isn't so restrictive as to disallow Dire Avengers (who I had assumed were exactly the kind of tactical stand-in an Aspect army might need) from manning a heavy gun when it is absolutely necessary? Or to stop a Howling Banshee from cutting out the Howling for a few minutes in order to sneak up on an enemy (instead of having to call in the Scorpions)? I know that the Dark Reaper's credo involves death from afar, but Maugan Ra quite obviously does not allow that to stop him handing everything it's own face in close combat. You don't need eight Aspect squads to do the work of one Guardian squad; pretty much any Aspect should handle most combat as well as a Guardian, and one aspect much better.

I mean, sure, they all know what they're best at - but if a munitions depot needs guarding, they can all do it to some degree without needing to conscript Guardians down. Dire Avengers would defend it much as a Guardian squad might; Scorpions would hide out in the ruins surrounding it and wait for the enemy to stumble past; Dark Reapers would stand on the rooftops and scream for them to bring it on.



Of course, just like menagers and office workers can be used to move heavy boxes and man the reception; it still does not mean company does not need a cadre of physical workers :P.

Yes, they can do that, but all these units are better used fighting on the front. Instead of siting for few months next to ammunition depot that may never be attacked they may go to make difference on frontline, and leave guarding depot to guardians who'll do it just as well.

There are things that only Aspect Warriors can do, like fighting toe-to-to with Space Marines. Then there are things every Eldar can do, like standing next to depot for a month doing nothing, or firing a general-purpose starcannon. It's always better use of resources to leave mundane tasks to non-specialists while keeping specialists for things they excell at. Even if you have plenty of specialists like Biel-Tan, it's better to have them all do what they do best rather than have them man scatter lasers.

boogaloo
13-11-2010, 19:34
It would be VERY odd for an eldar unit to be an aspect and not be named. A nightwing is a vehicle, an instrument of war. If it's piloted by a specific aspect then it should be named, eg the 'Sky Harbinger' aspect. They have names for aspects without rules or models so something that does exist but without a name is a little illogical.

EDIT:


This is untrue. Whilst there are many Paths and within those paths many directions or ways, the aspects are restricted to the Path of the Warrior. This is a case of all mackerel are fish but not all fish are mackerel. All 'ways' on a path are LIKE aspects, but they aren't aspects.

To be an aspect you specifically have to be an aspect of Khaine. That's why they're called Aspect Warriors - Warriors that emulate an Aspect of their war god. And all Aspects are on the Path of the Warrior. Thus you cannot be on the path of the courier and diverge into a militant 'way' of that Path. ALL militant paths are on the Path of the Warrior and all of them are Aspects.

A guardian isn't on a military Path when they go to war. They just happen to have training in equipment required to fight and are employed that way.

Hellebore


Perhaps all aspect WARRIORS are aspects of khaine... I imagine a healer could be an aspect of Isha?

Son of Sanguinius
13-11-2010, 19:39
Perhaps all aspect WARRIORS are aspects of khaine... I imagine a healer could be an aspect of Isha?

That's entirely possible, but to my knowledge there hasn't been anything to suggest that the other Eldar deities had aspects. In Khaine's case, the literature describes his ventures (however symbolic they may be) to procure new aspects for himself from other sources. The story of the Banshees is the first that comes to mind.

Hendarion
13-11-2010, 19:40
boogaloo, the name "Aspect" is used in the Codex only to reference Aspects of Khaine aka Aspect Warriors. A Path that is defined as an aspect of Isha isn't unfluffy at all. I'd say that is very much possible.

Lothlanathorian
13-11-2010, 19:55
Isha the pediatrician, Isha the neurologist, Isha the chirpractor, et cetera ad infinitum ad nauseum?

Hendarion
13-11-2010, 20:16
Isha the pediatrician, Isha the neurologist, Isha the chirpractor, et cetera ad infinitum ad nauseum?
Hehe. Isha the healer, Isha the mother, Isha the lover, ...

Hellebore
14-11-2010, 00:03
Now I can see a Craftworld Karma Sutra using aspects of the gods to describe sexual positions/relations. Are you going to play Isha the lover or Lileath the Innocent today dear? I'm thinking Alean Steed of Khaine is a good position for me, my back's a bit out... :shifty:

Hellebore

Hendarion
14-11-2010, 08:08
I've actually *never* before thought of Eldar sex, but I doubt that CWE will do it... erm... with too much joy or pleasure. You know, that's dark stuff :p And it probably requires some... preparations and mental training for it to happen. Weird stuff, when you start to think of it, no?

TheLaughingGod
14-11-2010, 08:27
I've actually *never* before thought of Eldar sex, but I doubt that CWE will do it... erm... with too much joy or pleasure. You know, that's dark stuff :p And it probably requires some... preparations and mental training for it to happen. Weird stuff, when you start to think of it, no?

Possibly. The general discipline they maintain in interpersonal relationships might cover that though. I doubt they need a specific path just to perform intercourse.... though, there may be a path who's purpose it is to guide other Eldar in "safe sex"

Idaan
14-11-2010, 13:25
I've actually *never* before thought of Eldar sex, but I doubt that CWE will do it... erm... with too much joy or pleasure. You know, that's dark stuff :p And it probably requires some... preparations and mental training for it to happen. Weird stuff, when you start to think of it, no?

"Path of the Warrior" proves you wrong. One character even considers dating old-fashioned and prefers to cut to the chase right away. When you think about it, it doesn't make sense for them to be prude: we know that they can still feel pleasure without any danger of corruption - it's explicitly stated in most sources. And how is having pleasure from sex any different than having pleasure from creating art, reading books, eating fine food and bifurcating your enemies with their guts splattering on your face-mask?

FarseerMatt
14-11-2010, 13:58
Given the fact that Eldar apparently experience everything more intensely than humans, I find the idea of Eldar sex being boring...unlikely. :p

Idaan's right - the Eldar don't deny their emotions, because they know that it would be futile. Instead they focus on one thing at a time so they can still experience it to the full without being overwhelmed/corrupted. It's the seeking of sensation without boundaries that grabs the attention of Slaanesh, not sensation in general.

Also, relationships seem to exist outside of the Path system (which kind of makes sense - the Path is a journey of the self; a relationship by definition involves another) with the possible exception of the "Path of Maternity".

Hendarion
14-11-2010, 17:19
"Path of the Warrior" proves you wrong. One character even considers dating old-fashioned and prefers to cut to the chase right away. When you think about it, it doesn't make sense for them to be prude: we know that they can still feel pleasure without any danger of corruption - it's explicitly stated in most sources. And how is having pleasure from sex any different than having pleasure from creating art, reading books, eating fine food and bifurcating your enemies with their guts splattering on your face-mask?
Well, I'm not saying they shouldn't feel pleasure. But they surely have to control themselves with how much or in what way.
About the splattering we do know, that they need preparation and kind of change to be someone else to be able to bear combat without falling apart mentally.

Son of Sanguinius
14-11-2010, 17:21
And how is having pleasure from sex any different than having pleasure from creating art, reading books, eating fine food and bifurcating your enemies with their guts splattering on your face-mask?

My signature area is too full. Someone do the honors and sig this. :D

N0-1_H3r3
14-11-2010, 18:07
Well, I'm not saying they shouldn't feel pleasure. But they surely have to control themselves with how much or in what way.
About the splattering we do know, that they need preparation and kind of change to be someone else to be able to bear combat without falling apart mentally.
It's not about "falling apart mentally". It's about ensuring that the emotions and inclinations that are useful, even crucial, during battle, are kept restrained and locked away outside of conflict.

With the potency of Eldar emotion, you don't want a bloodthirsty, cruel and merciless individual wandering around the Craftworld, because he may kill at the slightest provocation... the Warrior Path, then, exists as a prison for feelings of intense hate and genocidal rage, a means to contain those dangerous feelings while keeping the key in a convenient place ready to unleash them in times of war.

By comparison, an amorous Eldar is much less dangerous to everyone around him, no matter how inhumanly strong those feelings may be.

Other Paths, as demonstrated in Path of the Warrior, don't serve to contain emotions, but rather to experience and express them in a considered and healthy manner. Only the destructive emotions necessary for war must be controlled and prepared for in such a way.

Hendarion
14-11-2010, 19:37
N0-1_H3r3, "an Eldar filled with bloodthirst, cruel and merciless, wandering around the Craftworld" is kinda what I would call "mentally fallen apart".

An amorous Eldar might be less dangerous for his fellows (although it is not, as we know the story of the Craftworld that got torn apart by Slaanesh after having abused the love of a female Eldar), he is still dangerous for himself, putting him in danger of losing himself.

Retribution
14-11-2010, 20:56
An amorous Eldar might be less dangerous for his fellows (although it is not, as we know the story of the Craftworld that got torn apart by Slaanesh after having abused the love of a female Eldar), he is still dangerous for himself, putting him in danger of losing himself.
Man, that is still one of the dumbest pieces of fluff i've ever heard about...just...c'mon

Col. Tartleton
14-11-2010, 23:08
Well, I'm not saying they shouldn't feel pleasure. But they surely have to control themselves with how much or in what way.
About the splattering we do know, that they need preparation and kind of change to be someone else to be able to bear combat without falling apart mentally.

I'm not sure how they'd approach sex. I would imagine role playing would be required. The way I see it is the Eldar try to hide behind masks. There is the war mask thing which is basically how they detach themselves from their core. Murdering things is like their favorite thing ever. However to prevent themselves from going insane they fragment their personalities into something akin to a set of personae they act out.

The Eldar on the paths hold themselves back. They wear one mask well, but they know when to take it off. An Eldar warrior is a well honed killing machine but when the battle is over he takes off the mask and he is no longer a well honed killing machine. He's a devoted family man type. But you endanger his family (the craftworld) he's got his war face on so quickly you die without knowing he killed you.

Then you have Exarchs who can't take the mask off. As such they're pretty much stuck (by self imposed isolation) in solitude at their temple when not training themselves and students or on the hunt. The Eldar are afraid of Exarchs but in awe of them. They're the epitome of soldiers. Glorified like the Gladiators of old, trapped in a heightened sense of awareness bordering on the supernatural. You can literally smell the stink of blood when they walk by. You look into their eyes and you see nothing. They smile at your jests and you shiver because you aren't sure if they're smiling at your humor or thinking of ways to kill you.


Family Forum Spoilers :angel:
So I'm sure the Eldar have sex, incredible weeks long binges of sex. But they I'm sure they'd keep lovemaking as just another mask. Something they'd perfect utterly but perform rarely. Eldar strike me as having sex for a month straight every few decades. They're only fertile once in a great span of time if I recall and its a complex process. But they'd be blowing our minds in bed. Maintaining a climax for days on end. Something stupid to explain how superior they are.

Lothlanathorian
14-11-2010, 23:14
Whole world ships teeming with schizophrenic sociopaths who live for millenia and can kill you with their mind if they chose to learn how. Awesome.

Son of Sanguinius
15-11-2010, 01:20
Whole world ships teeming with schizophrenic sociopaths who live for millenia and can kill you with their mind if they chose to learn how. Awesome.

And they fall within the good guy spectrum of this deliciously grimdark setting.

eldargal
15-11-2010, 02:55
It isn't quite as bad as Hendarion makes it sound, though still perfectly awful.


Man, that is still one of the dumbest pieces of fluff i've ever heard about...just...c'mon

Speaking of Eldar fertility, the WFB High Elf female menstrual cycle is ten years, with an assumed 2-3 years of fertility in the decade. If this could be applied to Eldar, it gives some idea as to how often teh Eldar might be able to bear children. Couple it with that bit of DE fluff about gestation lasting some years. Of course there could quite easily be a Path of the Mother or some such which regiments and structures it all to maximise the breeding potential of the populace (part of my Craftworld fluff). From memory the human system is 6 women to each male and one baby each every 15 months ceasing after 6 children, o as not to impact on the womens health overmuch. Can't cite that though.

Hendarion
15-11-2010, 06:15
Man, that is still one of the dumbest pieces of fluff i've ever heard about...just...c'mon
What exactly? The part about the devoured craftworld or the problem that Eldar might need preparation in order to have sex and not losing themselves?
If it's about that lost Craftworld... maybe, but it's canon.
If it's about preparations for sex... surely awful, but it's still something that could fit Craftworld Eldar pretty well, after all the life of a CWE is entirely awful anyway, always holding themselves back, training to tame their darkness within, living a life of great denial just to control their extreme emotions.

Drasanil
15-11-2010, 18:09
Speaking of Eldar fertility, the WFB High Elf female menstrual cycle is ten years, with an assumed 2-3 years of fertility in the decade.

IIRC all it say it that the Everqueen has to use her "moonblood" in a ritual every ten years to keep Morrslieb from crashing into the world. It say nothing about the frequencies of her special time or it's duration. You really can't draw anything from a throw away line like that.