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Kirbinator
07-11-2010, 04:23
So there's this amazing manticore model (http://www.ragingheroes.com/blogs/news/2153242-whod-buy-a-manticore) being made by Raging Heroes and I'm going to get it; I demand it be in pretty much every list I field.

Unfortunately, as we know, the medium monstrous mount isn't the most competitive of choices. The local gamers around here don't invest too heavily in War Machines, so it's pretty much just pincushion firepower I need to worry about.

I was thinking of taking a Master with Ring of Darkness (halves BS of incoming ranged attacks) with Dragonhelm to help keep him alive. Alternatively, I also thought about the Ring of Hotek + Cloak of Hag Graef to help with wizard hunting. I can flank-charge a wizard's unit and put him in a miscast bubble while tearing through standard rank-and-file infantry.

How should I best use the Manticore for optimum killing ability and survivability? Obviously not by flying out in the middle of the field, but it seems like a great counter-charge or flanking unit.

sulla
07-11-2010, 06:16
Manticores can't win combats on their own vs much at all, so the key is to keep them alive long enough for the decisive charge. Use the terrain rules to your advantage, walls, forrests, buildings etc. Place the terrain to create multiple safe(r) zones for him.

What you want to do is combo charge him with a unit to cause enough wounds to remove steadfast and run down the unit. I like all out attack on him. I have used the dragon egg + sword of might for this reason. 2d6 s4 plus 7-9s5 and thunderstomps makes a mess of light infantry. Together with a unit of corsairs or witches, you should win and take away steadfast. Since survivability items don't do a lot for the manticore (even the ring), I usually focus on guile and positioning to protect him, rather than magical items.

If you want the ring of hotek and cloak of HG, those items combo much better with a dark pegasus or cold one/steed.

The other thing I have abandoned for him is the battle standard. The +1 CR is nice, but losing the entire model just because he loses combat is not worth the risk IMO.

Kalandros
07-11-2010, 06:38
Use it as a mountain chimera for the transformation spell of course!

JimmyFrank
07-11-2010, 06:53
You would also have to take into account the fact that a lot of the new miscast results are a template of S6 to S10 nastiness or the same to all models in base contact. So putting that wizard in a miscast bubble could also be the thing which kills your character

Gooner
07-11-2010, 07:11
Honestly I would reall like it if manticores where good but they just are not. Way too easy to kill and dont do enough damage to earn their points wurth.

Maybe if they could killing blow larger things but as they are its not good enough to warrent 200 points.

freddieyu
07-11-2010, 07:29
Use it as a mountain chimera for the transformation spell of course!

This is it!!!

Lord_Elric
07-11-2010, 10:47
Use it as a mountain chimera for the transformation spell of course!

Unfortuneatly hes playing darkelves so no lore of beasts

oldschoolmonk
07-11-2010, 12:25
My tactic for keeping the manticore safe used to always be taking a Dreadlord on a Dragon at the same time, and a hydra or two. They cannot shoot everything down, so even if your manticore ends up as a pincushion then it is doing its job. This would be one of those moves that encourages your opponents to load up on warmachines unfortunately, and may end up being a negative change for your club...

The Black Dragon Egg is definitely an item worth taking for this critter. You aren't going to survive shooting in normal situations, but you can play it safe and make them pay for one glorious turn. The Dragon Helm is a good support to the nobles HA/SDC/Shield/etc.

DeathlessDraich
07-11-2010, 15:19
Experimented with Manticores since 6th ed. Used it with all types of lists. Even used 2 Manticores once.
The only list that won a game was the Dragon/Manticore list but even that lost far more than won.

Verdict - Leave it well alone.:)

Veshnakar
07-11-2010, 15:59
I think the OP is going to use a manitcore regardless of the consensus on them is.

I have been using a dragon and/or a manticore since the beginning of 6th edition for dark elves.

The trick for me is to overload your opponent with threats. Take a couple of units of shades and dark riders, and advance and strike quickly. If you are nervous of shooting vulnerabilities perhaps you would like the ring of darkness on the rider as it benefits the rider and the manticore. Won't leave the rider with much protection unless he is a dreadlord but if the rides DOES die then the manticore only get's better as it automatically counts as rolling "RAARGH" on the monster reaction table. Ideally the manticore is fantastic at taking out war machines, flank support for your own rank units, taking out missle units, and pursuing fleeing enemies, and even character killing.

End the end, if you opponent has missle weapons, chances are he is going to use them on the largest targets in sight, but you have to give you opponent multiple threats so he doesn't know what to shoot first. Dark elves excel at this. If they are shooting at the manticore, they aren't shooting at something else.

Don't let people discourage you. Two manticores, or a manticore and a dragon are perfectly viable, and have done me very well. People would much rather see a manticore then a hydra, so give it a try!

Kirbinator
07-11-2010, 16:47
Thank you all for the responses! I am aware and agree the Manticore isn't the best thing for its points, but I love that model and will be using it regardless.

My current 2500 list has two hydras, two chariots, and two units of Shades. I'm hoping that will be enough target saturation to leave the manticore safe to be used as a counter charge or flank protection unit.

I had not even thought of the black dragon egg, but that item looks great for this purpose!

sulla
07-11-2010, 18:58
The other option is to use it as a Greater War Manticore (Counts as a Black Dragon). :):):)

NixonAsADaemonPrince
07-11-2010, 19:54
The other option is to use it as a Greater War Manticore (Counts as a Black Dragon). :):):)

I certainly wouldn't complain about that, in fact I wouldn't care what you used it as, it's such a good model I'd be happy whatever.

Kirbinator
07-11-2010, 20:20
The other option is to use it as a Greater War Manticore (Counts as a Black Dragon). :):):)

I've considered that exact thing! It's such a great model, and if anyone fusses they can kiss my foot. Seriously though, Black Dragon breath? Look at that scorpion stinger and tell me you couldn't see it shooting deadly poison on people, especially with a little hot water and gently pointing it more towards the enemy. 3+ armor? Scorpion plating! S6 T6? That thing is a beast!

It will probably bounce back and forth between Manticore + Master and Dragon + Dreadlord.

Of course, now I need to figure out how to properly equip a Dragonlord! :D

Draconian77
07-11-2010, 20:45
EDIT: Totally incorrect...

Using it as a Dragon is definately the better competitive choice though. ;)

Kirbinator
07-11-2010, 21:43
The Master and mount will put out 7+(9 if they fail their Uncontrollable check!) attacks with Killing Blow which you can use to remove Ogre-sized threats such as Trolls or Treekin.

Is that so? I am aware under Monstrous Infantry it says they generally follow standard Infantry rules, but isn't it because Killing Blow specifies Infantry, Cavalry, and Warbeasts that people said that we couldn't Killing Blow Mounstrous Cavalry? Couldn't the same thing be said for Monstrous Infantry, immune to all but Heroic Killing Blow?

Kevlar
07-11-2010, 21:46
Paint it up real nice and find a good place to display it. Keep it away from your army list though.

Draconian77
07-11-2010, 21:50
Is that so? I am aware under Monstrous Infantry it says they generally follow standard Infantry rules, but isn't it because Killing Blow specifies Infantry, Cavalry, and Warbeasts that people said that we couldn't Killing Blow Mounstrous Cavalry? Couldn't the same thing be said for Monstrous Infantry, immune to all but Heroic Killing Blow?

Now that you mention it I'm almost certainly getting that incorrect. :o I'll just stay in my corner... I'm still trying to figure out how to use a Manticore somewhat effectively then...

Lord_Elric
07-11-2010, 22:08
Paint it up real nice and find a good place to display it. Keep it away from your army list though.

Yup i second this tbh i generaly keep resin models away from the table top especialy gorgeous ones like that one

sulla
08-11-2010, 04:59
Of course, now I need to figure out how to properly equip a Dragonlord! :DPendant + crown of stubnborn + whatever the heck you want. Sadly, those 2 items are so good that they almost invalidate other choices for him. (Not saying you can't go with other choices, just that they are the no-brainers.)

Kalandros
08-11-2010, 06:42
Monstrous Cavalry cannot be KB'd but Monstrous Cavalry HEROES that are, before Mount option, Infantry, can be KB'd as per the FAQ.

So a Herald of Khorne on Jugger will be affected by Killing Blow where Bloodcrushers won't be.

Kirbinator
08-11-2010, 14:18
I understand Kalandros, but I think the point in question was Monstrous Infantry. Killing Blow rules specify Infantry, Cavalry, and Beasts. Monstrous Infantry rules say they follow nearly all of the same rules as Infantry but with the three addons with no mention of ignoring Killing Blow. One line of logic could be that Monstrous Infantry follow the same rules as Infantry and are susceptible to Killing Blow. More likely, though, is that because it's not specified under the standard Killing Blow rules, Monstrous Infantry are only susceptible to Heroic Killing Blow.


Pendant + crown of stubborn + whatever the heck you want.
Do you feel the Dragonlord being Stubborn is necessary? I don't really intend to charge things I could lose combat with and that's a slew of attacks coming down for pretty hefty active combat resolution.

sulla
09-11-2010, 03:23
Do you feel the Dragonlord being Stubborn is necessary? I don't really intend to charge things I could lose combat with and that's a slew of attacks coming down for pretty hefty active combat resolution.Charge a unit of infantry, the champion challenges... your lord kills him, doing most likely 1 or 2 wounds.... Now your dragon can't attack because nothing is alive in his initiative steps so your lord on a dragon loses by 1 to 3 CR.

If you're going to always combo charge, or stay well away from ranked units that's fine and you don't need it, but since he's already pretty good with just a halberd or GW or lance, mundane armour and the pendant, the crown is a luxury most other races monster riders can't afford. They have to spend most of their points on protection; we have just about the best personal protection in the game in pendant and our naturally good armour save from the s.d. cloak. (There's nothing wrong with buying him the giant blade and pendant, for example, but you can easily afford the crimson death or deathpiercer for similar results and still afford the crown.)

Kayosiv
09-11-2010, 10:26
Charge a unit of infantry, the champion challenges... your lord kills him, doing most likely 1 or 2 wounds.... Now your dragon can't attack because nothing is alive in his initiative steps so your lord on a dragon loses by 1 to 3 CR.


This is why monstrous mounts fail in this edition.

For the Manticore, I would suggest putting it in the box and hoping 9th edition or the 8th edition Dark Elf book makes it more playable.

If you are determined to play it and don't want to proxy it for a dragon, the Ring of Darkness or some Null Talismans (depending on what you think you're facing) are a good idea to protect it from ranged attacks.

theunwantedbeing
09-11-2010, 10:39
Go for a flank and minimise attacks on it if possible.
Flank, Charged, Extra damage you'll be doing. You can often win combats easily enough, you'll just need a boatload of ranks to help out with negating that annoying steadfast.

Sadly this means throwing squishy elves in the way of them, even at 5 wide you can be sure to take a fair few casualties from whoever your facing.

Your best bet is to just keep it out of any fire arcs where possible and pray for a big scatter on anything firing at you indirectly as you can't do a thing against those.
Same as last edition mostly, the lack of a save really hurts it.

I do agree that the dragon is a much better bet, largely for it's save.
Also it's tougher, has more wounds, strength, attacks and weaponskill making it much better at dealing with opposing elites that would otherwise make a mess of your own troops.

But have a go with the manticore, it can be made to work, you just have to be careful with it.
The Ring of Darkness is handy to avoid being shot at too much, although against bs3 stuff it's only an extra -1 to hit but it's of some help.
Magic is a much better bet of course, as you can more noticably lower ballistic skills on enemies, but at that point your better off either buffing the manticore with spells or just attempting to remove enemy models.