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Metzler123
07-11-2010, 13:54
Hey guys,

So here's the scenario. Flying cavalry charge an enemy that they can see through a piece of woods terrain because of true line of sight rules, and the flying cavalry flies over/through the woods to complete the charge. The unit being charged elects to stand and shoot. Does the flying cavalry get the -1 soft cover to hit modifier for the woods? Thanks!

JonnyTHM
07-11-2010, 15:14
Stand and shoot follows a very strict setup (and in my opinion is one of the tightest rules in 8th). You execute the shot immediately, if a unit is outside of range you treat them as being at the maximum range (this doesn't mean you move the unit, you simply pretend that your tape measure said the maximum range of the weapon).

So, to answer your question: yes, they count as having cover.

theorox
07-11-2010, 15:34
why would they not get cover? :)

Theo

DeathlessDraich
07-11-2010, 16:25
why would they not get cover? :)

Theo

Because the rules for LOS are impractical. :) - see below


Hey guys,

So here's the scenario. Flying cavalry charge an enemy that they can see through a piece of woods terrain because of true line of sight rules, and the flying cavalry flies over/through the woods to complete the charge. The unit being charged elects to stand and shoot. Does the flying cavalry get the -1 soft cover to hit modifier for the woods? Thanks!

This question involves LOS and therefore there cannot be a general answer. :)
The practical way to sort out untraceable LOS is through mutual agreement especially if it involves woods/forests - there is a thread I started on this.

So, the short answer:
Try to determine LOS to the flying model's body from the shooters and then use the cover rules below. If this fails then mutual agreement is needed or dice off.


My explanation:

Cover - involves ascertaining whether the "majority of models are obscured". - pg 41.

To do this LOS is needed.

LOS - determined "from the eyes to the model's body" - impossible to do with precision unless you fix lasers to the every model's eyes.

Assume you use the common give or take approximation, then in this case it is the simple(?) matter of trying to determine whether, for each shooting model, the majority of the chargers is obscured or not - this is 3 dimensional!!.

If you use flyers, keep their stems short!:)

N.B. - As Jonny THM (Hello!:)) said, S&S occurs before Move chargers and therefore flyers are not in mid-air when being shot at.

AMWOOD co
07-11-2010, 17:32
Actually, terrain is one of the few things (maybe the only thing) we may use a strict ruling for. See page 119, Forests and Shooting.

2ndCompanyVeterans
07-11-2010, 18:22
Well if he is charging you in the from and he can see you you can see him. So if there is cover he gets it. Obviously if he is rear-ending you that would be different.

Havock
08-11-2010, 01:25
Could get a bit murkier if you all have pistols and the woods are just outside pistol range.

Metzler123
08-11-2010, 01:42
Thanks for the answers, but one thing that is bugging me that has not been addressed is that the flying creatures are considered to fly over the obstacle, i.e. they don't have to take a dangerous terrain test to charge through it, because they are going over it. So why would they get the -1 if they are not in the woods but actually over it? Does this line of reasoning hold any water?

H33D
08-11-2010, 03:53
If the woods are outside of the maximum range of your shortest ranged weapon, they would not get a cover save. The rules under standing and shooting under charge reactions states that you assume the shots are made this way. If there are forests anywhere from your maximum range or the chargers location (whichever is closer) up to your models that are standing and shooting they would get a cover save.

Chipacabra
08-11-2010, 18:57
That's not right, H33D. The rules for S&S say that you resolve the shots where the chargers stand, AS IF that spot was in maximum range.
Remember, the shots for S&S are resolved before you even touch the chargers to move them. At this point, you don't even know for sure what path the chargers will take, or if they will even be able to complete the charge at all! The rules all work out if you keep that in mind.

DeathlessDraich
08-11-2010, 19:16
Thanks for the answers, but one thing that is bugging me that has not been addressed is that the flying creatures are considered to fly over the obstacle, i.e. they don't have to take a dangerous terrain test to charge through it, because they are going over it. So why would they get the -1 if they are not in the woods but actually over it? Does this line of reasoning hold any water?

1) Yes, they do not test for Dangerous terrain when flying or making a flying charge over such terrain.

2) They are not flying or in mid air during the S&S phase. They are on the ground.
S&S is resolved before Moving chargers, therefore LOS is simply drawn in the usual way to determine whether they benefit from any Cover.

In fact except for Drop rocks and Slashing attack (I can't think of anything else), everything pertaining to Flyers happen while they're on the ground

AMWOOD co
08-11-2010, 20:32
Thanks for the answers, but one thing that is bugging me that has not been addressed is that the flying creatures are considered to fly over the obstacle, i.e. they don't have to take a dangerous terrain test to charge through it, because they are going over it. So why would they get the -1 if they are not in the woods but actually over it? Does this line of reasoning hold any water?

Don't confuse reality with the game mechanics. The game is written the way it is to make things easy (and it only took them 150 pages of words and pictures).

Yes, I'm being cheeky. Seriously, the game mechanic says to resolve it one way and if you go to a tournament, that's how things will be pointed out in the book. If you want to house rule it to match reality, go right ahead.

On the other hand, consider the possibility that a unit of flyers may fly just above the tree-tops, still gaining cover from the measly man-sized archers on the ground below. This may lead to situational rules (on a hill or in a tower) that are fun to houserule, but be prepared to throw the pages out in a competition.

H33D
09-11-2010, 01:59
Sorry, I was wrong. You only shoot as if they are at maximum range and no longer wait until they are actually at maximum range like in 7th edition. Thanks to others for clearing this up.