PDA

View Full Version : The Emperors deal with chaos



TrooperTino
07-11-2010, 19:17
My english isn't the best and the topic complicated, but I want to try and discuss this (or read other people discussing it :) )

It is often hinted without stating it as fact that the Emperor made a deal with the chaos gods for the creation of the Primarchs.

It is also hinted that the Primarchs and the Spacemarine Legions (made from the Primarchs "essence" or geneseed) were needed not only to conquer the galaxy, but to prevent humanity from extinction.

It is a fact that the Emperor, after thousand years of playing the puppetmaster from the background, stepped on the scene, conquered earth and united humanity in a very short timespan.



I think he rushed it in those last decades and took control himself, because his fareseeing powers showed him that there wasn't much time left and humanity faced extinction. I think that something unexpected happened, that forced the emperor to take matters into his own hands. Something he couldn't see before.

But he had to act. Now! With earth in its postapocalyptic state there is no way to conquer the galaxy. Even with Mars help and the Emperor as leader.

So he makes this deal: The chaos gods give him the "power" or "tools" to create 20 generals from whoms flesh his armies can than be sculpted. Armies able to conquer the galaxy in a few hundred years (!!!!!!!!!). But, and thats the payment, half of them will eventually become the generals of chaos.

A good deal: I give you the power to build something neither I or you could build alone, but 50% are mine after you build them.

The Emperor says yes because he has no other choice. He sees humanity dying out no matter what hes going to do so he accepts but at the same time wants to outsmart chaos.





SPOILERS FROM NOW ON

First heretik: The Gellar field was one way to keep the Primarchs out of chaos reach. It failed because chaos took the Primarchs from the Emperors custody with a (even for the chaos gods very complicated) mix of visions and time travel (I know time travel is a bad plot, but here it works and chaos gods aren't bound to "time").

The Primarchs are scattered and chaos is able to plant the first seeds into them with the charakteristikas of the worlds they land on and how they grow up there. This years are the most important and shaping time of their life without the Emperors guiding and influence.

The Primarchs are eventually all found and reunited with their legions, but the Emperor knows he has to keep watch. he doesn't know what the "half of them will become ours" exactly means, but he knows he has to be cautios.

Another Hint I want to throw in here is from thousand sons.... it reads like the space wolves are a SM legion destroyer legion, aka an anti space marine legion. Totaly loyal and with the canis helix, and the resultating limitation of possible recruits to this one world (fenris), the SW are relatively easy to keep in line (just wipe out fenris...kill all their recruits...no space wolfes anymore). Ok this is far stretched maybe.

The 2 missing legions are another thing.... we know they were united with their primarch and fought in the great crusade but than something happened and they were destroyed, all records of them cleansed....

Maybe the Emperor was a bit jumpy at first... he destroyed those legions because they did something suspicious, making the Emp believe chaos took the price for the primarchs creation, destroying the legions to prevent chaos this price.

he knew something bad would happen with the SM legions and chaos would cost him dearly but needed the legions and tried to outsmart chaos to get his Primarchs without paying for them...

For chaos the Heresy and a status quo with unlimited bloodshed till the end of time was the goal of course... but wouldnt it explain some weird things the emperor did to his primarchs if he couldn't trust them fully. Knowing some of them, but not all, would become a threat sometimes?

ok I typed to much allready and its possibly full of mistakes (typos and fluff mistakes) and keep in mind please its really difficult to tell what you think in another language :angel:

Eulenspiegel
08-11-2010, 08:18
So he makes this deal: The chaos gods give him the "power" or "tools" to create 20 generals from whoms flesh his armies can than be sculpted. Armies able to conquer the galaxy in a few hundred years (!!!!!!!!!). But, and thats the payment, half of them will eventually become the generals of chaos.

A good deal: I give you the power to build something neither I or you could build alone, but 50% are mine after you build them.

The Emperor says yes because he has no other choice. He sees humanity dying out no matter what hes going to do so he accepts but at the same time wants to outsmart chaos.

Interesting, but I wouldnīt subscribe to that theory.
The Emperor and the Chaos gods wouldnīt be able to look into at each other with a straight metaphysical face, fully knowing that each party inevitably will be trying to cheat in that deal:
Chaos would use the Primarchs to fight against the Imperium. They know that the Emperor knows that, so they also know the Emperor will try to find a loophole in the deal or flat out refuse payment. And the Emperor would know that they know (and so on ... ;) ).

Well now that I wrote that I have to agree that the Emperor must have promised Chaos something in that deal. Or was he really powerful enough to force himself unto them? (*snigger*)

mob16151
08-11-2010, 08:28
Another Hint I want to throw in here is from thousand sons.... it reads like the space wolves are a SM legion destroyer legion, aka an anti space marine legion. Totaly loyal and with the canis helix, and the resultating limitation of possible recruits to this one world (fenris), the SW are relatively easy to keep in line (just wipe out fenris...kill all their recruits...no space wolfes anymore). Ok this is far stretched maybe.


I believe the Space Wolves only recruiting from Fenris is more a tradition then any actual "official" limitation. IE theirs nothing stopping them from recruiting aspirants from wherever they have they yen to.

Eulenspiegel
08-11-2010, 08:45
I believe the Space Wolves only recruiting from Fenris is more a tradition then any actual "official" limitation. IE theirs nothing stopping them from recruiting aspirants from wherever they have they yen to.

Yes but he does have a point:
If the Emperor really bred the Space Wolves as a failsafe against other Legions, and if the Canis Helix did breed other "wolf/dog - like qualities" into the recipents than just durability and cold-resistance, like loyalty, then keeping Fenris the main / only recruiting world is indeed very important.

mob16151
08-11-2010, 08:48
Yes but he does have a point:
If the Emperor really bred the Space Wolves as a failsafe against other Legions, and if the Canis Helix did breed other "wolf/dog - like qualities" into the recipents than just durability and cold-resistance, like loyalty, then keeping Fenris the main / only recruiting world is indeed very important.

I actually think thats a bit backwards. In that if the Canis Helix does promote loyalty into the recipient, it would matter even less where the SW's recruit from, as all Astartes would have loyalty imbued into them on a genetic level.

Eulenspiegel
08-11-2010, 09:02
I might have that wrong, but I thought the newer background suggested that the Canis Helix wasnīt introduced into aspirants when they were chosen to join the ranks of the Space Wolves, but that itīs there from in every human on fenris from the start.

I have to re-read A Thousand Sons, but wasnīt it alluded that the early settlers on that world experimented with the Canis Helix to make them able to endure the harsh climate?
Spoiler from ATS:
... and that this treatment turned some of them into the "wolves" that now inhabit that world?

Itīs beside the OPīs point and a little off-topic, anyway. Sorry about that ;)

Jonny_N
08-11-2010, 09:03
I actually think thats a bit backwards. In that if the Canis Helix does promote loyalty into the recipient, it would matter even less where the SW's recruit from, as all Astartes would have loyalty imbued into them on a genetic level.

Space wolves have gone renegade before. Skyrars Dark wolves, and some of the companies that have 'walked to the 13th stone'.

mob16151
08-11-2010, 09:11
I might have that wrong, but I thought the newer background suggested that the Canis Helix wasnīt introduced into aspirants when they were chosen to join the ranks of the Space Wolves, but that itīs there from in every human on fenris from the start.

I have to re-read A Thousand Sons, but wasnīt it alluded that the early settlers on that world experimented with the Canis Helix to make them able to endure the harsh climate?
Spoiler from ATS:
... and that this treatment turned some of them into the "wolves" that now inhabit that world?

Itīs beside the OPīs point and a little off-topic, anyway. Sorry about that ;)

I believe it's said that they experimented with DNA but I didn't read that as that being the Canis Helix. But that's only my personal take. And I can see where your coming from on that.


Space wolves have gone renegade before. Skyrars Dark wolves, and some of the companies that have 'walked to the 13th stone'.

I am aware of that, it's just that the fluff suggests that for a Legion/Chapter that's been around for 10,000 years or so they've had remarkably few renegades. Now whether that's because of "genetically" enforced loyalty, or some other factor is up for debate.

Apologies to the OP for the thread jacking.

TrooperTino
08-11-2010, 18:36
Thanks for your replies!

The "failsafe" in the Space Wolfes is something debatable... but I am very sure I read somewhere that the Space Wolfes CAN only recruit from fenris because of the the canis helix.

To have a loyal legion that can destroy another legion is very plausible even if there was no deal with chaos.... but it shows that the Emperor has had the possibility of a whole legion betraying him in mind from the start. Now that I think about it how could he have known that Leman Russ will land on fenris? Maybe the Space Wolfes happened to be like we know them by coincidence and the Emperor just used them in the best way possible.


Chaos would use the Primarchs to fight against the Imperium. They know that the Emperor knows that, so they also know the Emperor will try to find a loophole in the deal or flat out refuse payment. And the Emperor would know that they know (and so on ... ).

Mindgames only the gods can play :cool:

That is exactly how I imagine it ;)

edit: really no apologies are needed but thank you for giving :)

Stonerhino
09-11-2010, 02:49
I don't think the SW were planned by the Emperor. I think he was like :wtf: and made the best he could with them. He may have even seen the canis helix's effects himself and deside then that Leman Russ' kin are the best at taking down the Thousand Sons.

Like the Chaos gods tell Magnus. Magnus, was their first choice and the Emperor would have known it.

Night Bearer
09-11-2010, 04:43
Crazy random theory: what if the Ruinous Powers foresaw the arrival of the Tyranids and the subsequent destruction of all biological life in the galaxy?

Humanity needs the power of Chaos to fight the Tyranid threat. Chaos needs to protect its prize food source.

Müller
09-11-2010, 07:02
I'm just goning to use two words as a reply to the OPs statement/theory:

Erhm......No.

Carlos
09-11-2010, 15:38
Crazy random theory: what if the Ruinous Powers foresaw the arrival of the Tyranids and the subsequent destruction of all biological life in the galaxy?

Humanity needs the power of Chaos to fight the Tyranid threat. Chaos needs to protect its prize food source.

One would assume the Chaos Gods have followers in other Galaxies beyond our own. They wouldn't cease to be if Mankind was extinct. The Great Crusade illustrates many alien cultures aligned with the powers of chaos, after all.

If anything the Chaos Gods knew Horus would fail and that humanity would stagnate. They show him a vision of a future with the statues of the emperor and the loyal primarchs but not his and his traitorous brethren. This is the current 40k present.

In Legion the Eldar want Horus to win so Chaos will burn itself out. It is likely Tzeentch would have forseen such events and instead wanted the current situation where a frightened, repressed humanity is ripe for the picking.

CrimsonTider
09-11-2010, 17:56
I like this thread, very interesting discussion. Having read most of the Horus heresy series, I think the whole plot is very complicated, and nothing is as it seems.

Regarding the Big E and chaos not forging an alliance simply based upon the fact that they all knew they would turn on each other eventually, it is entirely possible. After all, the chaos guys forge alliances with each other all the time, with all sides knowing that the others will turn on them sooner rather than later. If the Big E was as powerful as they hint, he might have been able to directly speak with the chaos powers themselves, or at least through chaos lords, brokering a deal, hoping that his strategy would enable him to overcome the eventual outcomes they had planned.

Look at Legion for an example. The Cabal, led by the Eldar, predicted that if Horus won, chaos would eventually burn itself out, horus would turn on chaos, and humanity would survive while chaos was greatly weakened. They also said if Big E won, mankind would flourish and then eventually chaos would reign supreme and mankind would be extinct.

CrimsonTider
09-11-2010, 17:58
The Cabal all seemd to indicate that it hinged upon the Alpha Legion to choose which side won... but since the Legion apparently chose chaos and horus, and then they lost, while the Big E apparently did not really win... what did they choose?

FlashGordon
09-11-2010, 18:01
Time travel does not work. That would mean we have at least two parallel universes out there one where the emperor "wins" and no primarches ever rebell and the one we call 40k. Yay...........................

CrimsonTider
09-11-2010, 18:07
Hmmm. if time travel worked, and it did indeed split off parallel universes, the home universe of the traveller would never feel the impact, so how would we know if it worked or not?

SolkaTruesilver
09-11-2010, 18:11
I'm just goning to use two words as a reply to the OPs statement/theory:

Erhm......No.

Thank you for your input. The way out is over there ---->

The guy wrote quite an interesting theory. You might disagree, you might agree. You might thinks it's brillant or stupid. But it's worth a reply of more than 2 stupid words.

Clockwork-Knight
09-11-2010, 19:10
One would assume the Chaos Gods have followers in other Galaxies beyond our own.With the fifth edition tyranid codex detailling about how the psychic thingy of the tyranid being retconned into never having used warp stuff in the first place, I'd actually postulate that the chaos gods are rather confined to the warp space of the milky way.

Idaan
09-11-2010, 19:54
Look at Legion for an example. The Cabal, led by the Eldar, predicted that if Horus won, chaos would eventually burn itself out, horus would turn on chaos, and humanity would survive while chaos was greatly weakened. They also said if Big E won, mankind would flourish and then eventually chaos would reign supreme and mankind would be extinct.
The Cabal wasn't led by the Eldar. It was actually opposed to them: Slau Dha was a traitor to his race and it is said that he broke "all the ancient edicts" by allowing the Cabal into the Black Library. The official Eldar affiliation was "against Horus, not for the Emperor" as the ancient quote put it and as Eldrad in "Fulgrim" reasons.


The Cabal all seemd to indicate that it hinged upon the Alpha Legion to choose which side won... but since the Legion apparently chose chaos and horus, and then they lost, while the Big E apparently did not really win... what did they choose?
They probably sided with Chaos because they saw that it would serve the Emperor's goals, but chose not to follow the Cabal's instructions exactly. That, or Cabal was mistaken.

nagash66
09-11-2010, 20:22
I would like to point out that only chaos sources have ever talked about any deal between the chaos gods and the Emperor.

At the end of the day it could just be yet another chaos statement that has no merit but was used to talk loyalists into going traitor.

Azrael'sFury
09-11-2010, 21:02
I agree with Nagash on this one. I think this is just the machinations of the great enemy.

Carlos
10-11-2010, 08:45
With the fifth edition tyranid codex detailling about how the psychic thingy of the tyranid being retconned into never having used warp stuff in the first place, I'd actually postulate that the chaos gods are rather confined to the warp space of the milky way.

One would assume the warp as a dimension to be infinite though. They must have used their warp shadow on other Galaxies in millennia passed and maybe they don't use Warp travel because its dangerous.

CrimsonTider
10-11-2010, 11:40
Well, of course the Emperor would not reveal it if he had made a deal with chaos... he would not appear as omnipotent and all powerful if he revealed it to his followers.

I am not saying he made a deal, but it not out opf the realm of possibilities. According to Thousand Sons, he was a regular visitor in the warp, apparently knew his way around, and was teaching Magnus a lot before Magnus went all rogue on him.

IF he had made a deal, he would have kept it a secret. Many powerful people have made deals with the devil, thinking they can outsmart old horn head and esacpe their just due. The Emperor would not be the first, nor the last. And I for one can see it happening. After all, he was not ignorant of the warp and chaos, he knew deamons existed, he knew of the existence and power of the chaos "gods", and he was not infallible (look at all the mistakes he has made).

ryng_sting
10-11-2010, 20:49
Making a deal with Chaos can mean almost anything, even when you're being told by someone who gives you the truth. Granted, it explains the sadness in the Emperor's voice when he tells Horus that no man can master Chaos, that he 'knew well the trap that had ensared' him. Erebus was a scumbag, but he had a point when he demanded to know 'why not a thousand Horuses...?'

RED9335
11-11-2010, 09:32
Great thought provoking thread! I seem to recall the genetic engineering on fenris to be about the actual wolves not the astartes ones. I may be blanking on some of it though. And why do allot of people get the space wolves are anti space marines idea? I think that would be neat but haven't read anything that said they would be any more suited to it than any other loyalist legions.

TheRedAngel
11-11-2010, 19:58
@RED9335:
That one originates from a BL-Interview with D.Abnett who asked "why the emperor would have allowed a so dangerous legion like the SW to exist if not to have a legion that could take destroy other legions".
This (of course) soon turned into SW are 'the legion killer legion'.

You can probably find it on the BL HP or on youtube.

DarthMcBob
11-11-2010, 20:07
I would like to point out that only chaos sources have ever talked about any deal between the chaos gods and the Emperor.

At the end of the day it could just be yet another chaos statement that has no merit but was used to talk loyalists into going traitor.

Agreed. Why would the Emperor want or need the help of the Chaos Gods? Why would they help him in the first place? Why would they all agree to help him, rather than fighting each other as usual? That daemon had every reason to make up crap and little reason not to.

Lord Fatwa
11-11-2010, 20:41
Agreed. Why would the Emperor want or need the help of the Chaos Gods? Why would they help him in the first place? Why would they all agree to help him, rather than fighting each other as usual? That daemon had every reason to make up crap and little reason not to.

There is no question in my mind that Emperor knew of the Chaos Gods, and that he knew exactly what they were. Deal or pact or nothing at all, Gods are Gods, and they want praise and worship from all who meet them. To know that you are known by someone who then builds an intergalactic empire founded on the idea that nothing like you has ever or will ever exist has got to be a slap in the face, especially for a God.

At the stage of the creating the Primarchs, the Emperor had already unified Terra into a secular society in what is generally considered to be a very short space of time. They would have to see that as a threat. So if he did come to them willing to trade something for the knowledge required to create the Primarchs, of course they would want to put themselves into an advantageous position. They would take that slap in the face and turn in back onto the one who struck first. They would take his 'sons', his ultimate work, and turn them against him.

Whether or not the words of the daemon are based on fact, it's master's desire for retribution, or nothing at all, the Emperor lied to humanity, and the Heresy is the reaping of the fruit of that lie.

DarthMcBob
11-11-2010, 22:52
There is no question in my mind that Emperor knew of the Chaos Gods, and that he knew exactly what they were. Deal or pact or nothing at all, Gods are Gods, and they want praise and worship from all who meet them. To know that you are known by someone who then builds an intergalactic empire founded on the idea that nothing like you has ever or will ever exist has got to be a slap in the face, especially for a God.

No they don't. They're made of emotion, and they want more of that. Worship of them is merely a means to that end. If there was an eternally bloody war, and yet no one involved in it knew about or cared about Khorne, he'd still be happy because of all the blood and anger. If you worship them but you are emotionless, it means nothing at all to them. You're utterly useless.


At the stage of the creating the Primarchs, the Emperor had already unified Terra into a secular society in what is generally considered to be a very short space of time. They would have to see that as a threat. So if he did come to them willing to trade something for the knowledge required to create the Primarchs, of course they would want to put themselves into an advantageous position. They would take that slap in the face and turn in back onto the one who struck first. They would take his 'sons', his ultimate work, and turn them against him.

For starters, why would they know or care whether or not his society is secular? They're concerned about emotion, not religion. What is there that they would feel threatened by? As long as emotion exists, so will they. And do remind what they would know that would be useful in creating anything that's not a freakish mutant ball of tentacles, eyeballs, and other random assorted crap. And just why would they unite? They hate each other more than anything else. It's in their nature.


Whether or not the words of the daemon are based on fact, it's master's desire for retribution, or nothing at all, the Emperor lied to humanity, and the Heresy is the reaping of the fruit of that lie.

The Chaos Gods are but reflections of humanity's own emotions, nothing more. They have their own beginning, caused by mortal beings. They are powerful beings from another dimension, not gods. Yes, their realm plays by different rules than ours does, but it still plays by rules. For example, the Eldar know that if you do X, Y, and Z with your mind you'll always get wraithbone, not a Bloodthirster. For that to work, the Warp must have consistent rules that other beings simply aren't aware of. Therefore, the Emperor wasn't lying.

CrimsonTider
12-11-2010, 11:35
Well, all the indications and what we "know" of the emperor indicates he could be lying, but he might not. Why would the demon lie? To cause dissent and trouble. Of course, if it is the truth, then telling the truth would also cause dissent and trouble. The Emperor has lied (simply telling his followers that chaos does not exist is a big one), and we know he made some choices that were questionable. The real problem is that the back story for the Emperor changes, but nothing has been written in detail about his thoughts and motivations. So we see the result of his choices without knowing why those choices were made.

Take MAgnus for example: We know why he made the choices he made... he was searching for a cure for his people. Unable to find it, he made a deal with the Chaos powers. I am certain he believed he would eventually discover the power/ability that would allow him to cure his legion and thus avoid the fate the chaos powers demanded as a price. However, in his arrogance, he was wrong. He lost.

The Emperor has shown his own apparent arrogance, lack of humility/humanity at times, and he very well could have made a similiar deal with chaos to create the primarchs.

TrooperTino
17-11-2010, 20:36
Thank you all for the great replies! I'm glad there is so much positiv feedback.

I can't contribute much more at the moment... sry

But the HorusHeresy and what followed is to me a "game" played by entities or "minds" like the Cabal, the Chaos gods (each with slightly different agendas), the Emperor and who knows what more... Eldar.... surviving old ones... C'tan.... everyone had his or its part and another goal in mind. There is more than the childish behaviour of the Primarchs we read about in the BL books that led to the HH. Its a story that, if told in its mindblowing entirety, would let the Lord of the Ring look like a goodnight story for children.

Night Bearer
18-11-2010, 00:31
There is no question in my mind that Emperor knew of the Chaos Gods, and that he knew exactly what they were. Deal or pact or nothing at all, Gods are Gods, and they want praise and worship from all who meet them.
I would say that the evidence is pretty strongly in favor of him knowing. IMO:

1. In Legion, John Grammaticus suspects that the Emperor is aware of Chaos. He even directly wonders why the Emperor has not exposed this knowledge to at least the Primarchs and Astartes.

2. In A Thousand Sons, he is said to have taken Magnus on his first trips through the Warp.

3. He is known to have an extremely strong psychic presence, and it seems oddly coincidental that his final push to unite Terra happens just in time for Slaanesh's birth to re-open the galaxy to unification with a united Terra. IE, I think he's aware that the Warp is about to become relatively calm back when he begins his campaign to unite Terra.

But here's the Q that puzzles me about the whole Chaos deal:

What specifically does Chaos have to offer that would be necessary for the Primarchs?

Are we talking something tech-related? Knowledge of biology or something else?

There's a passage in Legion where John Grammaticus remarks that the genetic engineering of the Geno Legions was interesting enough for the Emperor to not only let them live, but to study them as well. Are the Primarchs at a level so far advanced that the knowledge the Emperor must have gleaned from the Geno Legions and what must have been other similar current and past gene-modding programs wasn't enough, and as a result he needed the Gods to get that final insight or boost?

Or...did the gods provide the necessary technology? And if so, how? Produce it themselves? "Steal" it from the Eldar before their worlds were annihilated?

Wicksy
18-11-2010, 13:04
I would say that the evidence is pretty strongly in favor of him knowing. IMO:

1. In Legion, John Grammaticus suspects that the Emperor is aware of Chaos. He even directly wonders why the Emperor has not exposed this knowledge to at least the Primarchs and Astartes.

2. In A Thousand Sons, he is said to have taken Magnus on his first trips through the Warp.

3. He is known to have an extremely strong psychic presence, and it seems oddly coincidental that his final push to unite Terra happens just in time for Slaanesh's birth to re-open the galaxy to unification with a united Terra. IE, I think he's aware that the Warp is about to become relatively calm back when he begins his campaign to unite Terra.

But here's the Q that puzzles me about the whole Chaos deal:

What specifically does Chaos have to offer that would be necessary for the Primarchs?

Are we talking something tech-related? Knowledge of biology or something else?

There's a passage in Legion where John Grammaticus remarks that the genetic engineering of the Geno Legions was interesting enough for the Emperor to not only let them live, but to study them as well. Are the Primarchs at a level so far advanced that the knowledge the Emperor must have gleaned from the Geno Legions and what must have been other similar current and past gene-modding programs wasn't enough, and as a result he needed the Gods to get that final insight or boost?

Or...did the gods provide the necessary technology? And if so, how? Produce it themselves? "Steal" it from the Eldar before their worlds were annihilated?
I gather that the specualtion about the deals centres around the creation of the souls of the primarchs. Mighty, powerful souls were required to get the best out of them. Some believe that is the reason why Horus' clones were so unlucky. They possessed "normal" sould which didnt work in the bodies.

Kind of like having a pimped up Intel I7 with all the trimmings and running MS-DOS 3.1 and wondering why it doesnt work very well ;)

Night Bearer
18-11-2010, 14:01
I gather that the specualtion about the deals centres around the creation of the souls of the primarchs. Mighty, powerful souls were required to get the best out of them. Some believe that is the reason why Horus' clones were so unlucky. They possessed "normal" sould which didnt work in the bodies.

Kind of like having a pimped up Intel I7 with all the trimmings and running MS-DOS 3.1 and wondering why it doesnt work very well ;)
Haha, true, but wouldn't the Emperor be able to, for lack of a better term, "bleed" off some of his own potential into the Primarchs? In fact, I've always taken that as being implied, given the emphasis on how each Primarch reflects one element or another of the Emperor's "personality", as it were.

I guess, and not to sound too snarky about it, but if Chaos was not necessary to create the Emperor, why would it be necessary to create the Primarchs? "Mere" human shamans had the capability of creating the Emperor, I guess it just seems to me that the Emperor, with roughly 36,000 years to work on it, would have had the experience, knowledge, and personal psychic power to create the Primarchs without the need for the gods' help.

Here's a wild card: what if the "deal" wasn't with the Emperor, but the Emperor himself? What if it were the shamans who made a deal with Chaos, i.e. "instead of absorbing our souls into your own emotion-vortexes, allow them to merge together to create an even greater human being capable of mission X"???

Maybe the Gods' issue with the Emperor creating the Primarchs is that he was somehow trying to void/get around this original deal by building twenty replacements. IE, instead of humanity relying on this one being made through a shamanistic Chaos pact, they would get twenty super-humans created outside of the deal and thus no longer beholden to the Ruinous Powers.

Chem-Dog
18-11-2010, 17:21
I might have that wrong, but I thought the newer background suggested that the Canis Helix wasnīt introduced into aspirants when they were chosen to join the ranks of the Space Wolves, but that itīs there from in every human on fenris from the start.

I have to re-read A Thousand Sons, but wasnīt it alluded that the early settlers on that world experimented with the Canis Helix to make them able to endure the harsh climate?
Spoiler from ATS:
... and that this treatment turned some of them into the "wolves" that now inhabit that world?

Interesting. I took it that the "Wolves that are not wolves" were actually not dissimilar to the spirit guide things that accompanied the TS warriors.
But you're not wrong, the Canis Helix was present before Russ' arrival on Fenris.


I don't think the SW were planned by the Emperor. I think he was like :wtf: and made the best he could with them. He may have even seen the canis helix's effects himself and deside then that Leman Russ' kin are the best at taking down the Thousand Sons.

The Space Wolves were sent to collect Magnus for a reckoning, not to destroy them, it was Horus who stoked Russ' ire by telling him of witchcraft, to hear of the Thousand Sons disobeying the Nikea Edict so soon after witnessing the changing, nearly coming to blows with Magnus and given Russ' temperament, it's hardly surprising what happened next.



Look at Legion for an example. The Cabal.... predicted that if Horus won, chaos would eventually burn itself out, horus would turn on chaos, and humanity would survive while chaos was greatly weakened.

No, the Cabal gave two outcomes, Emperor winning and mankind facing a gradual descent into enslavement or Horus winning, subjugating humanity and then destroying it in a blaze of Pathos.
The choices they offer Alpharius and Omegron is a slow lingering demise or a quick clean death.


The Cabal all seemd to indicate that it hinged upon the Alpha Legion to choose which side won... but since the Legion apparently chose chaos and horus, and then they lost, while the Big E apparently did not really win... what did they choose?

They chose for the Emperor.


I would like to point out that only chaos sources have ever talked about any deal between the chaos gods and the Emperor.

At the end of the day it could just be yet another chaos statement that has no merit but was used to talk loyalists into going traitor.

What's more convincing? A well constructed lie or a revealed secret truth? The Emperor went to great lengths to deny his own divinity and to expunge religion from humanity, it's not such a leap to think he did these things to deny the Chaos gods their fuel. To admit one had had dealings with these gods and that they had granted him the ability to craft the Primarchs would fly in the face of his own edicts by admitting to dealing with (at worst) Gods and (at best) Extra planar Xenos.


Agreed. Why would the Emperor want or need the help of the Chaos Gods? Why would they help him in the first place? Why would they all agree to help him, rather than fighting each other as usual?

The chaos gods see humanity as the tastiest morsel in the galaxy, a race that's on the cusp of an apotheosis into a fully psychic race, with the Eldar all but lost as a source of power this is the next best thing.


If there was an eternally bloody war, and yet no one involved in it knew about or cared about Khorne, he'd still be happy because of all the blood and anger. If you worship them but you are emotionless, it means nothing at all to them. You're utterly useless.

Remember that the Gods are vying amongst themselves for dominancy, if EVEYONE that's fighting those who dedicate to a God are more valuable to that god than those who are undedicated.


For starters, why would they know or care whether or not his society is secular? They're concerned about emotion, not religion. What is there that they would feel threatened by?

Religion bypasses all other laws humans will happily break secular laws to serve their religious obligations, faith allows the gods to gain a greater control of the potential that their followers have to generate emotion.
Religion allows societal limitations to be placed upon people by metrit of birth and allows people to rise to power regardless of relative merit.
Secularism is about a dispassionate evaluation of facts, you're less likely to get all hot and bothered about things if you do not have concepts such as salvation and damnation.


As long as emotion exists, so will they.

There is a significant difference between existing and gorging, the gods want to gorge.


And just why would they unite? They hate each other more than anything else. It's in their nature.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The Emperor was a significant potential threat.

The Chaos Gods are but reflections of humanity's own emotions,[/quote]

An assertion that's flawed simply by the fact that the Chaos Gods existed before humanity.



2. In A Thousand Sons, he is said to have taken Magnus on his first trips through the Warp.

The warp is known, the nature of it's denizens doesn't necessarily follow.


3. He is known to have an extremely strong psychic presence, and it seems oddly coincidental that his final push to unite Terra happens just in time for Slaanesh's birth to re-open the galaxy to unification with a united Terra. IE, I think he's aware that the Warp is about to become relatively calm back when he begins his campaign to unite Terra.

I believe it's stated implicitly in various places that the Emperor knew of the imminent cessation of the warpstorms of "Old Night" and that his mobilisation towards unification were based on this knowledge.
This doesn't necessarily mean he IS aware of the chaos gods but doesn't suggest that he doesn't.


What specifically does Chaos have to offer that would be necessary for the Primarchs?

It's only described as power. Knowledge is power, so it could be knowledge.
It's quite a prejorative term and can mean anything you want it to, from litterally sending billions of warp generated volts of energy through a machine to handing the Emperor a coppy of "The Dummy's guide to making Primarchs".



There's a passage in Legion where John Grammaticus remarks that the genetic engineering of the Geno Legions was interesting enough for the Emperor to not only let them live, but to study them as well. Are the Primarchs at a level so far advanced that the knowledge the Emperor must have gleaned from the Geno Legions and what must have been other similar current and past gene-modding programs wasn't enough, and as a result he needed the Gods to get that final insight or boost?

Or simply the missing component whatever it might be. It's largely irellevant, suffice to say that, in this version of events (unproven as it might be) the Chaos gods facilitated the genesis of the primarchs.

For my part, I think they had no actual role in the physical creation itself, as they would have been able to go all order 66 on the primarchs.
That is, of course, if you belive the chaos gods didn't want a fractured and constantly infighting Imperium as the end result.

TrooperTino
18-11-2010, 19:59
But here's the Q that puzzles me about the whole Chaos deal:

What specifically does Chaos have to offer that would be necessary for the Primarchs?

Are we talking something tech-related? Knowledge of biology or something else?

I don't think it would be something like a stolen or chaos-manufactured technology, but that's a possibility of course.

I had something more "magic" in mind... maybe a seed of every chaos god... some essence of them. The Emperor was allready a master of the genetics, a scientist with knowledge that made the Admach believe him to be the Omnissiah, but to create soldiers like the Spacemarines, in their turn made from beings (the Primarchs) who were demigods like in greek mythologie, for that task simple science or genetic engineering wasn't enough.

W40k is a Universe where numbers or symbols can carry power, a genetic code could be altered in the same way to include something that makes more out of it than simple "more musclues, faster reflexes, etc etc" alterations used on regiments like in legion. That would make the uberness of the Spacemarines plausible, too if they have a splinter of the gods written into their genetic code.

These "splinter" could be essence of the E himself of course, but we have Primarchs like Angron, Magnus, Russ, Fulgrim.... I smell Khorne, Tzeentch, Slanesh... at least bits of them... a bit Emp-essence into the mix as a counterweight... and a good portion "simple" material-worl-science of course and voila... 20 Superhumangodlike Generals to conquer the Galaxy.




Here's a wild card: what if the "deal" wasn't with the Emperor, but the Emperor himself? What if it were the shamans who made a deal with Chaos, i.e. "instead of absorbing our souls into your own emotion-vortexes, allow them to merge together to create an even greater human being capable of mission X"???

Maybe the Gods' issue with the Emperor creating the Primarchs is that he was somehow trying to void/get around this original deal by building twenty replacements. IE, instead of humanity relying on this one being made through a shamanistic Chaos pact, they would get twenty super-humans created outside of the deal and thus no longer beholden to the Ruinous Powers.

I really like this.... the only issue I have with it is the behaviour of some Primarchs but they could have been spoiled by the Chaos gods when they "kidnapped" them and threw them on some more or less random planets. Or these strong charackter traits were different aspects of the Emperor that showed themselfe differently strong in the individual Primarchs.

TrooperTino
18-11-2010, 20:50
The Space Wolves were sent to collect Magnus for a reckoning, not to destroy them, it was Horus who stoked Russ' ire by telling him of witchcraft, to hear of the Thousand Sons disobeying the Nikea Edict so soon after witnessing the changing, nearly coming to blows with Magnus and given Russ' temperament, it's hardly surprising what happened next.

I think the simple fact that LemanRuss and his legion is tasked with that is more than a show of force or humilation for Magnus by the Emperor. But this is wild speculation.




The chaos gods see humanity as the tastiest morsel in the galaxy, a race that's on the cusp of an apotheosis into a fully psychic race, with the Eldar all but lost as a source of power this is the next best thing.

Humanity in its current state at the end of the 40millenium has to be a gala-dinner for them.




It's only described as power. Knowledge is power, so it could be knowledge.
It's quite a prejorative term and can mean anything you want it to, from litterally sending billions of warp generated volts of energy through a machine to handing the Emperor a coppy of "The Dummy's guide to making Primarchs".

:p




For my part, I think they had no actual role in the physical creation itself, as they would have been able to go all order 66 on the primarchs.
That is, of course, if you belive the chaos gods didn't want a fractured and constantly infighting Imperium as the end result.

I don't know if "order 66" means order 66 Primarchs instead of 20 or has more meaning to it... in german you can say 08/15 for something so normal that its boring for example :)

I don't imagine the chaos gods interacting in the creation in any active way, either. Teaching knowledge seems the most fitting, but pumping raw warp energy into the growing clones might have been it, too.


And I see the Chaos gods and the Emperor as eternal enemies from the start of their existance. That makes them dealing with each other a bit unbelievable but from the PoV of chaos the actul situation in 40k is perfekt.... they "won" in the end. It's the Emperor who was doomed from the start but fought against his and humanitys destiny to serve as soul-food till the end of time with all he had. But he saw even in all his might he could not change destiny, so this last gamble: The deal with the devil that you know will doom you but doomed you are anyway so why not try to trick the devil. Better try than die!
The Emperor story is such a tragic one. Good intentions... the best requirements for his mission, but bound to fail and seeing this future all along, fighting against it with the result to be bound on the golden throne to suffer for eternity and see his darkest visions comming true, impotent to do something against them hearing his enemys laughing at him while his race he tried to protect is eaten and perverted by them.

TheRedAngel
18-11-2010, 22:00
I don't know if "order 66" means order 66 Primarchs instead of 20 or has more meaning to it... in german you can say 08/15 for something so normal that its boring for example :)
It's a Star Wars reference: Emperor Palpatine (sp?) order to eradicate the Jedi.

Goosey_J
18-11-2010, 22:07
I don't know if "order 66" means order 66 Primarchs instead of 20 or has more meaning to it... in german you can say 08/15 for something so normal that its boring for example :)

'Order 66' is the name of the code that Emperor Palpatine or 'Darth Sidious' sends out to all the Clone Troopers in Starwars: Revenge of the Sith which causes them to open fire on and kill the majority of the Jedi knights that they had previously been loyal to. As it was Palpatine who originally commissioned the creation of the Clone Troopers, he made sure that when he needed their loyalty, it would ultimately be guaranteed.

I believe what the previous poster was saying is that if the Chaos Gods had had a hand in the Primarch's creation, then surely they would have some sort of similar power to flip their loyalties at any given time, rather than go to great lengths to slowly corrupt and subvert them in a generally time consuming and sneaky manner.

Chem-Dog
18-11-2010, 23:39
I think the simple fact that LemanRuss and his legion is tasked with that is more than a show of force or humilation for Magnus by the Emperor. But this is wild speculation.

I'd be inclined to believe that if it wasn't for the fact that Magnus, in his instantaneous mind communication with the Emperor as he bursts through the webway, is fully informed of the damage he has wrought and the terrible mistake he has made. Magnus would have gone willingly had another Primarch who was perhaps a little less hot tempered been sent to retrieve him.


Humanity in its current state at the end of the 40millenium has to be a gala-dinner for them.

Indeed, much tastier now than if the Emperor's secular Imperium had been allowed to flourish.



I don't know if "order 66" means order 66 Primarchs instead of 20 or has more meaning to it... in german you can say 08/15 for something so normal that its boring for example :)

I don't imagine the chaos gods interacting in the creation in any active way, either. Teaching knowledge seems the most fitting, but pumping raw warp energy into the growing clones might have been it, too.

You missed the reference but yes, had the Chaos gods actively been involved in the creation of the Primarchs, we would have seen a much more significant shift of traitor primarchs. Which must mean they helped by supplying raw material (either litterally or metaphorically).



The deal with the devil that you know will doom you but doomed you are anyway so why not try to trick the devil. Better try than die!

The same rationale could be applied to the chaos gods. If you're playing the long game how better to bring down a mighty enemy than to have been secretly gnawing away at his foundations from the start?


'Order 66' is the name of the code that Emperor Palpatine or 'Darth Sidious' sends out to all the Clone Troopers in Starwars: Revenge of the Sith which causes them to open fire on and kill the majority of the Jedi knights that they had previously been loyal to. As it was Palpatine who originally commissioned the creation of the Clone Troopers, he made sure that when he needed their loyalty, it would ultimately be guaranteed.

I believe what the previous poster was saying is that if the Chaos Gods had had a hand in the Primarch's creation, then surely they would have some sort of similar power to flip their loyalties at any given time, rather than go to great lengths to slowly corrupt and subvert them in a generally time consuming and sneaky manner.

Pretty much what I meant, yeah.

DarthMcBob
19-11-2010, 00:51
You missed the reference but yes, had the Chaos gods actively been involved in the creation of the Primarchs, we would have seen a much more significant shift of traitor primarchs. Which must mean they helped by supplying raw material (either litterally or metaphorically).


Wait... why are we assuming that that daemon was telling the truth now? The only source for this alleged deal is a daemon who was actively attempting to convert the Word Bearers to Chaos at the time. Daemons are not known for their honesty at the best of times, much less when they're trying to corrupt someone. Remember the daemon in Fulgrim? Remember how it fed him a pack of lies to get him to eventually kill Ferrus Manus, only to then reveal that it had been making stuff up and that Fulgrim had just killed his best friend who had been trying to save him the whole time? Remember how it talked him out of suicide with promises of oblivion, only to immediately posses his body when he let it out and force him to the back of his own mind, sentencing him to watch a daemon running around in his body forever? Why should Lorgar's daemon have been any more honest than Fulgrim's?

bluemage
19-11-2010, 11:48
I don't think the Chaos Gods did anything to help create the primarchs. As someone pointed out earlier, Chaos had nothing to do with the creation of the Emperor and he's a heck of a lot more complicated than the primarchs.

As for the Alpha legion, the vision they watched showed if Horus won, chaos would be destroyed, not weakened.

TheRedAngel
20-11-2010, 16:01
I always (well, since those accusations came up) imagined it as a bit of truth at the core turned and twisted till it could become the accusations chaos needed to throw them at certain primarchs (and their legions).
I'm quite fond of the idea that the emperor would need some warp energy to create/enhance/fuel the primarchs. After all, all of them were quite powerful psykers built from scratch, according to old lore, which TFH seems to confirm as still valid.
So in my head to build these powerful beings you would need lots and lots of warp energy, to create their souls etc (just like every human/eldar has his connection to the warp and his soul/mirror image on the other side, which of course implies that naturally born beings with their natural warp connection 'create' their own soul upon birth and/or mature it during growing up).

So the emperor "borrowed" some warp energy during the creation of the primarchs, or rather just took and used it. Why ask the chaos gods if you could just take some of the warp? It's like catching air in a bag, it's there, it's free and it's got nobody's name written on it.
Except the chaos gods see the matter in a completely different light. It's their home/domain/whatever, so of course it's stealing.
Bit like when you have a neighbours apple tree whose branches are reaching over the fence into your garden. At some point the apples drop onto your lawn and you collect them to make some apple pie. And at this point your neighbour appears screaming that you stole his apples.
(Maybe the allegory fits a bit better if you had plucked the apples from the branches on your side rather than just picking them up, but in the end both claim ownership ["my tree" vs "in my garden"] and both are right and wrong at the same time in a moral sense [deliberately disregarding local laws in your country at this point])

So did the emperor steal from the chaos gods and they just reclaimed what's justifiably theirs when they abducted the embryo-primarchs?
Or did the emperor just take a bucket of water from the infinite ocean and now the fish are accusing him of stealing?
It's like asking a couple that is going trough an ugly divorce - you can't get a objective answer.
And I like the ambiguity.

PS Sorry for the bad English

Hashulaman
22-11-2010, 22:42
I rather like this theory, making The Emporer to be perfect then these skeletons in his closet pop up. He may be the ultimate human, but still a human. Being so attuned to the Warp, only a fool would think he did not feel the Fall of the Eldar and the creation of a new Chaos god. The Emporer realizeses(sp) that he has to unite mankind now or they may suffer the same fate.


The Warp storms are starting to subside now, perfect opportunity, he tries creating the Primarchs yet something is missing, a sould perhaps. So somhow he gets ahold of some of the Warp, raw material if you would, and using it creates the Primarchs. Chaos finds out, is not pleased and decides to reposess their property which would be the Primarchs now that their property is part of these new super humans.


They abduct the Primarchs, knowing the Emporer would come looking for them, hurl them arcross the galaxy so they would have time to courrpt them. For whatever reason not all of them are Corrupted, maybe the Emporers DNA combats it and for some it works, others it doesn't.