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Eldrad
08-11-2010, 20:30
After listening to the DE videos I began to realize that Chaos needs a restructuring from the bottom up of the whole thought process etc.

The fluff needs a good look through and be made sense of since there are alot of questions about how the Legions survive after 10000 years of basically fighting with each other. Im not saying get rid of anything but there are alot of head scratchers that could be smoothed over easily with some thinking and additional fluff.

The models also need a makeover. Not because they're bad but because 90% of the line is basically a slight deviation from a regular space marine. Skulls and chains a chaos warrior does not make. Perhaps use the Horus Heresy cards as inspiration and have the Chaos armor be based on older "Marks", such as ForgeWorld has done. And make the Chaos Terminators have the older set of Terminator Armor, something to set them apart because really there isnt much difference now. Then have a few Legion specific stuff to really spruce it up.

So what do you guys think? Does Chaos need a redesign or is it ok as is? And by redesign I mean more of what was described in the DE vids, where the designers asked themselves "why would they do that" and "what makes them want this" or "how do they make their armor" and then used those answers to help shape how they acted in fluff and looked and played on the table.

Souleater
08-11-2010, 21:03
Chaos really needs decent background. From that point they could rewrite the thing.

The problem at the moment is that the offical CSM makes them sound like whiney, spolit brats who decided to flip off daddy (who let them shoot guns, kill people and be way cool) in order to work for Dr Evul (who lets them shoot guns, kill people and er...still do what somebody tells them)

The Orange
08-11-2010, 21:04
Nope. Could they use better models? Yea, but so can everyone. Do they need new fluff? I don't think so.

As for your question about how they maintain their numbers. Well I guess GW failed with the last CSM codex to inform you that not all CSM are from the original Traitor legions. And there's also that new FW book something about a war in the Badaab system?

There's also the fact that time moves differently from the warp (said more times then I care to remember), as well as Fabious Bile being able to make more marines. I would be astonished if he was the only one with the know how to do that. I would think the original legions might have some inkling as to how to recruit new members, if not from fresh recruits then from the newer renegade chapters.

Col. Tartleton
08-11-2010, 21:20
If Jes, Juan, and Phil had the time ideally they'd be doing all the armies. Not because they're the only people who can write a decent codex or sculpt well, but because it would allow for a certain feel.

I think part of 40ks problem is its an amalgamation of decades of material as shaped by dozens of very creative people. Part of me wants a tabula rasa. I don't think it would hurt them to attempt to clean things up a bit.

It would be nice if every army could have their models redone to fit one man's imagination (preferably someone who knows what their theme is inside and out) in order to make the whole universe feel a bit more coherent. But that's not really possible.

There's a certain measure of blend between fantasy and science fiction that leans toward mythology and fairy tales. Ideally the entire game would be set at a certain fantasy ratio. 40k can't be a one man mission. Its too damn big and complicated. Take the models for what they are (nice) and the fluff as a guideline and write your own story.

MarshalFaust
08-11-2010, 21:41
i dont know if they need a re-work from the bottom up like DE did but they could certainly use some spring cleaning. there are a ton of cool characterful units and special characters that you just never see played and with our loss of daemons we really dont have anything unique anymore. i think for the most part our model range is fine, hopefully in the future we will see plastics for the cult legions maybe some daemon engines like FW blood slaughterers and blight drones becoming standard codex units.

Utred
08-11-2010, 21:41
Some really good points by Col. Tartleton.

Just to add to that the DE have been redesigned from more or less nothing more than a 3rd ed pamphlet codex. Part of the problems with the CSM is that there is a lot more background material.

If they re-write what's already written they will annoy just a few people. DE didn't have that background that they'd be countering.

Bunnahabhain
08-11-2010, 22:00
In my opinion, it needs a sub title.
Codex; Chaos Space marines.
Renegades, Heretics and Traitors

If the writers have it there in black and white, right from the start, that the book covers the original legions, more recent heretics, and those who are confused for non chaotic reasons, then it might just do so this time...

squeekenator
08-11-2010, 22:10
The fluff needs a good look through and be made sense of since there are alot of questions about how the Legions survive after 10000 years of basically fighting with each other. Im not saying get rid of anything but there are alot of head scratchers that could be smoothed over easily with some thinking and additional fluff.

This is one thing that they really need to talk about. The original Horus Heresy veterans are, for the most part, dead. Any Chaos Marine who has survived ten thousand years of constant war is going to be a Chaos Lord at least, and almost certainly a Daemon Prince by now. If they haven't reached either of those ranks, they'll have been turned into Chaos Spawn for sheer incompetence. The vast majority of Chaos Marines, even those who are in the legions, are new recruits, especially in the World Eaters, whose suicidal approach to tactics makes it laughable that any mortals other than Kharn have survived since the Heresy.

I've gone off on a bit of a tangent here, but my main point is that the next codex should have a lot less of the 'TEN THOUSAND YEARS OF WAR' nonsense, since it leads to a lot of players believing that every Marine in their army has been alive since the Heresy. Instead, put that 'TEN THOUSAND YEARS OF WAR' stuff in the entries for HQs, since some of them actually were alive since then.

Scribe of Khorne
08-11-2010, 22:13
Or, 10k years have passed, but not for those marines! Its not that hard to justify having original legion marines at all when you consider they spend a great deal of their time in the warp.

Perfect Organism
08-11-2010, 22:19
The major difference between Chaos and Dark Eldar is that Chaos already has a lot of good background and decent looking models. It doesn't need a radical redesign from the ground up, it just needs a lot of tweaking and polishing.

Basic CSM and Terminators are not going to get redesigned for the next chaos codex, or the one after that in all likelyhood. They are fairly recent models.

If they release newer models for the 'cult troops' or chosen, then we might see some older marks of armour being used as a base. As I recall, the plague marines already wear something which looks a lot Mk. III armour.

Personally, I'd much rather see chaos vehicle kits which aren't just loyalist ones with extra spiky bits. A chaos dreadnought in plastic seems likely and I think a land raider based on the Forge World pre-heresy one would be a nice option - the current one just seems a bit too loyalist to me.

Of course, what I would really like to see for chaos is cultists, mutants and other assorted mortal scum fighting alongside the marines. Most of the best chaos background has plenty of light infantry supporting the actual astares and I really like the recent forgeworld lists which mix guard-style troops with marines.

Born Again
08-11-2010, 22:20
Or, 10k years have passed, but not for those marines! Its not that hard to justify having original legion marines at all when you consider they spend a great deal of their time in the warp.

Same point, though, really: there may be many loyalist marines who are "older" than the Heresy veterans in the Traitor Legions.

No, Chaos don't need a "DE treatment". They could use some new models, same as everyone (except DE at this point :p) and are probably due for a new codex in another couple of years, but it doesn't need that much of an overhaul, not by a long shot.

Bunnahabhain
08-11-2010, 22:23
To be honest, there are enough people who want to be able to play the original legions, and the background can easily accommodate 40k sized forces of the original legions who've not been totally destroyed, mutated etc. They should be there to keep that significant proportion of players happy.

Time warps in the warp really are a very handy Deux ex machina

Raibaru
08-11-2010, 23:38
I don't think they need more fluff. The models are alright with their fair share of hits and misses much like every army has some (save DE so far). What they need are rules that are timeless. Chaos has gone from blatantly overpowered to damn near pathetic.

40k needs fleshed out cult lists 100 times more then it needs its 10th imperial codex.

Lord Inquisitor
08-11-2010, 23:48
I think there needs to be a step away from spikey marines. The last codex took the first steps for the cult marines - plague marines became a whole lot more than marines with +1 toughness. More daemon engines like the Defiler would really help. Adding a "generic cultist" option would also enhance the "freakshow" aspect of the army and I've no idea why this was considered a bad idea.

There's a wealth of background on the Chaos Marines - some of it is excellent and much of it is pretty awful. They don't need a background rewrite, they just need careful compilation.

Grimbad
08-11-2010, 23:56
Chaos should make less sense than it does, not more. It's the warp. Any given marine might have survived so long because there are five of the same marine wandering about in different parts of the galaxy, or when they die they just inexplicably show up later. They're living in unreality, they're making deals with gods. They shouldn't need logic.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
09-11-2010, 00:06
I don't think they need a radical re-write or a miniature range overhaul. Most of the models are awesome as is. Plastic Dreadnought, plastic Obliterators, plastic Raptors are really all that's needed. Plastic chosen would be a sweet bonus. What I'd like to see is the Chaos Codex shed some of the legion stuff. Heresy. I think the Chaos Codex ought to include characters from the Lesser know legions and other traitors. Abaddon, some word bearer, iron warrior, night lords, alpha legion characters. The characters need to affect the list the way other codexes work. It needs to be more like the current Space Marine list. Rumours have it that GW wants to do the big four chaos legions as separate books. Great in my opinion. The Vanilla Chaos list needs to appeal to those like myself who play the lesser legions. I play Black Legion and Iron Warriors. I want to see the list being better equipped to reflect these other legions.

A few grey box characters would be nice too. I'd like the Berzerkers, plague marines, noise marines and rubric marines to stay as the fluff already includes them outside their parent legions. The list really needs some more cool chaos only items. SM got the Veteran units the drop pod and thunderfire cannon among other things that the big five loyalist don't get. I'd like some units that the legion books won't have and the Space Marines don't already have. Would a Chaos Landraider variant or Predator Variant be too much to ask for. I'd also like my Vindicator to have a siege shield like my loyal counterparts.

Abaddon ought to get round the fact that my squads run away. Lets face it they are more scared of him than they are of saving their own skins so will stick around more. A night Lords Raptor Lord that gives Hit and Run back to the raptors in his army. A Warsmith that lets you count Obliterators as elites, a Word Bearer Dark Apostle that acts like a chaplain with litanies of hate or something similar. I could think of these ideas all day. A bike lord that changes bikes to troops. New recruits some thing akin to blood claws. They don't use scouts but must have new recruits that aren't as experienced yet (we know they steal gene seed,) Some more archaic weapons in the same vain as the conversion beamer........

It doesn't need a total re-write but it does need some work.

buried_alive
09-11-2010, 00:16
Chaos needs more Realms of Chaos and less spikey marines

Mannimarco
09-11-2010, 00:26
^ this

we need to move away from "marine + spikes - most of the options = Chaos". Move away from "hurr hurr I R SPIKEY AND EVIL hurr hurr". Give them somthing better than "Let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewarded".

hellharlequin
09-11-2010, 00:40
short answer : yes and no
Long answer:
I Would focus a little less on the Renegade warbands,
more on the Legions, their relations with each other and the warbands and the imperium
and blur the line beteween loyalist and traitor.
(TS helping the BA overcoming the Black Rage, Iron hands clashing with NL,
SW and WE "liberating" a planet from a socerer,
Black templars and WB battling over a planet. Just for example)

eyescrossed
09-11-2010, 00:59
^ this

we need to move away from "marine + spikes - most of the options = Chaos". Move away from "hurr hurr I R SPIKEY AND EVIL hurr hurr". Give them somthing better than "Let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewarded".

Completely agreed.

bishamon_o
09-11-2010, 01:02
I just want it to be more like the previous codex.
i started my chaos army because chaos could get the strongest single models in the game. the fact that all chaos worshippers were on a constant quest for more power, and this was reflected in theyre rules

i mean you could upgrade a unit of chosen to the point where they would be pretty much a unit of space marine captains, with better strength and toughness.
i mean yeah that single unit would cost almost a 1000 points, but i loved that the most about chaos. a single chosen could kill a unit, if it was properly upgraded.
and dont even get me started on chaos lords.

and the customisation options, OH the options.
you had 3+ pages of weapon upgrades and deamonic gifts, and thats not counting the god specific options.
you could upgrade youre chosen and characters in a million different ways, and they would all (most) be effective combinations. i mean the customisation options alone made me start many new chaos armies, because i wanted to make an army focussed on a tzeentch lord which could have all these cool abilities which my nurgle one could not for instance.

fast forward to the new codex.
a chaos lord is now exactly the same as a space marine captain, but with less powerfull weapon options ( possible exception being deamon weapon, but even that isnt that more powerfull).
chosen are just regular marines..... with infiltrate,...... and more special weapons.

customisation? what customisation?
there are no more deamonic gifts, and no really exciting weapon options.
there really are only a few weapon combinations you can give youre characters that work with each other ( and all of these are deamon weapon + jumppack/terminator armor)
the new codex is just a lame duck compared to the previous one, i wish they would still let me use the old one :(

AlphariusOmegon20
09-11-2010, 01:25
Same point, though, really: there may be many loyalist marines who are "older" than the Heresy veterans in the Traitor Legions.

No, Chaos don't need a "DE treatment". They could use some new models, same as everyone (except DE at this point :p) and are probably due for a new codex in another couple of years, but it doesn't need that much of an overhaul, not by a long shot.

Sorry no offense meant by this, but I call bull at your post.

I've been playing Chaos for almost 12 years now and I can tell you they need a MAJOR overhaul, fluff and game wise.

New models? Certainly. Especially since the Chaos dred is the same model that came out about 10 years ago. (I remember the exact same model with more options in the box from 2nd ed.)

But that's not the main issue. It IS the various codexes over the years.

2nd ed isn't the best codex ever written, but it''s historically the best of the Chaos bunch, fluff and game play wise.

3rd was horrible, as there was NO fluff at all in it.

4th (otherwise known as 3.5) was good from a gameplay and even fluff perspective, but was horribly laid out.

The current codex spit upon every previous piece of fluff about Chaos ever written in the span of 20 years. It is an abomination that did not deserve print on paper. That in itself is a massive task, as it's horrendous existence far outstrips even 3rd ed.'s. Why GW has allowed such a grossly inferior product, even by the lowest standards possible, to continue to exist is beyond me, especially considering how popular Chaos is.

Again, only a MASSIVE overhaul will save what is a very unique and fun army.

Born Again
09-11-2010, 02:03
Sorry no offense meant by this, but I call bull at your post.

I've been playing Chaos for almost 12 years now and I can tell you they need a MAJOR overhaul, fluff and game wise.

New models? Certainly. Especially since the Chaos dred is the same model that came out about 10 years ago. (I remember the exact same model with more options in the box from 2nd ed.)

But that's not the main issue. It IS the various codexes over the years.

2nd ed isn't the best codex ever written, but it''s historically the best of the Chaos bunch, fluff and game play wise.

3rd was horrible, as there was NO fluff at all in it.

4th (otherwise known as 3.5) was good from a gameplay and even fluff perspective, but was horribly laid out.

The current codex spit upon every previous piece of fluff about Chaos ever written in the span of 20 years. It is an abomination that did not deserve print on paper. That in itself is a massive task, as it's horrendous existence far outstrips even 3rd ed.'s. Why GW has allowed such a grossly inferior product, even by the lowest standards possible, to continue to exist is beyond me, especially considering how popular Chaos is.

Again, only a MASSIVE overhaul will save what is a very unique and fun army.

Ok, no offence, but I too have been playing Chaos for a long time: some 15 years. I'm not agreeing with a major overhaul though. I pretty much agree with your summary of the codeciis/ codexes/ whatever plural is in vogue this week, up until the current one. As far as your statements on that go, I simply say: "Why?" You seem to have not only a distaste for it, but some serious vitriol. However you haven't given any explanation apart from, basically, "it sucks". So what's your reasoning on it being so bad?

squeekenator
09-11-2010, 02:22
This is devolving into edition wars at a shocking rate...

Mannimarco
09-11-2010, 02:32
Such is the way of Chaos. Im sure Tzeentch is sitting there sayin "Exactly as planned" as we speak ;)

-Loki-
09-11-2010, 02:34
3rd was horrible, as there was NO fluff at all in it.

Every 3rd edition codex was like this.

eyescrossed
09-11-2010, 03:26
3.5 was the best, in my opinion... :(

Hellebore
09-11-2010, 03:58
Ok, no offence, but I too have been playing Chaos for a long time: some 15 years. I'm not agreeing with a major overhaul though. I pretty much agree with your summary of the codeciis/ codexes/ whatever plural is in vogue this week, up until the current one. As far as your statements on that go, I simply say: "Why?" You seem to have not only a distaste for it, but some serious vitriol. However you haven't given any explanation apart from, basically, "it sucks". So what's your reasoning on it being so bad?

I liked the design style it followed (along with the eldar and dark angel books) but they can't compete with the new style for excessive amounts of STUFF(TM) in them.

STUFF(TM) rules codicies these days. It makes people feel special that their unit X has 5 special rules cuz it makes them totally unique. It means the codex has an army list that takes up 15+ pages and 30+ pages just for the bestiary.

So the current chaos codex sucks becuase its STUFF(TM) quotient is dire.

Don't worry though, GW will rectify this soon enough. We'll have 15 different daemon weapons, 4 different armour variants, 6 new unit types and a whole raft of new kits to sell.

STUFF(TM) is GW's current design ethos and it seems they've finally decided to stick to one for a change as it has the best chance of making them more money.

Hellebore

Logan_uc
09-11-2010, 04:42
Ok, no offence, but I too have been playing Chaos for a long time: some 15 years. I'm not agreeing with a major overhaul though. I pretty much agree with your summary of the codeciis/ codexes/ whatever plural is in vogue this week, up until the current one. As far as your statements on that go, I simply say: "Why?" You seem to have not only a distaste for it, but some serious vitriol. However you haven't given any explanation apart from, basically, "it sucks". So what's your reasoning on it being so bad?

I'll give the explanation...:D

1)chaos codex had a lot of different things, but never gave more then a 2š role to renegades, and with good reason, because SM gone bad are just petty villains, and don't have all that hatred, self righteousness, superiority complex and a plan to conquer the galaxy for the dark gods.

2)"Let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewarded", this is a good example of spitting in the fluff, CSM are no more the guys that betrayed the Imperium and gave them selves to gain power to "save" humanity and got lost in the way and now are humanity's greatest enemy, they are the villains of a Disney movie.

3) chaos codex where about options (didn't touch 3rd though), so you could have something between a rooky and a guy which fought in every time and place possible, it was present in fluff and game the "Power at a cost" thing, and now it fell more like you turn to the chaos gods just for the pleasure of getting F in the A (IA vol. 9 is a great example where Huron was a more powerful guy when he didn't worship chaos)

now on topic CSM don't need the DE treatment, they have enough good fluff, they just need to bring the old one back changing thing like they did in 4th no thank you. although they could expand on how chaos deal with xenos more, we only no they are xeno scum for them and use nid ships, even that isnīt very explicit.

For models some thing need a revamp, and some new units would be good but nothing to drastic.

cuda1179
09-11-2010, 05:24
The 3.5, part E (there was 5 different prints of this book :wtf:) was my favorite as well. This book was just fun to play against and with.

I agree that the ability to create an army that "feels" unique was the best thing about it. That being said, the lay-out and over complicated manner of the rules made it a pain for most players. In that regard I prefer the current codex. It was also very easily abused by power gamers.

If they could find a happy middle-ground it would be perfect. Add more options for squads, mix up the stats a little, and add some more "freek show" factor into it.

I actually like the generic deamons, as it sets the Deamon codex apart. Some cultist might be nice though, ever if they were limited some how.

Born Again
09-11-2010, 05:39
I liked the design style it followed (along with the eldar and dark angel books) but they can't compete with the new style for excessive amounts of STUFF(TM) in them.

STUFF(TM) rules codicies these days. It makes people feel special that their unit X has 5 special rules cuz it makes them totally unique. It means the codex has an army list that takes up 15+ pages and 30+ pages just for the bestiary.

So the current chaos codex sucks becuase its STUFF(TM) quotient is dire.

Don't worry though, GW will rectify this soon enough. We'll have 15 different daemon weapons, 4 different armour variants, 6 new unit types and a whole raft of new kits to sell.

STUFF(TM) is GW's current design ethos and it seems they've finally decided to stick to one for a change as it has the best chance of making them more money.

Hellebore

Oh don't get me wrong, I like stuff. Not over the top: if it's replacing a USR that would do the job just as well then it's rather pointless. But if they want to throw in more daemon weapons and chaos gifts, I would welcome it. However, that's just design philosophy and not the DE-scale overhaul that the OP was talking about, so I still stand by my opinions there.


I'll give the explanation...:D

1)chaos codex had a lot of different things, but never gave more then a 2š role to renegades, and with good reason, because SM gone bad are just petty villains, and don't have all that hatred, self righteousness, superiority complex and a plan to conquer the galaxy for the dark gods.

2)"Let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewarded", this is a good example of spitting in the fluff, CSM are no more the guys that betrayed the Imperium and gave them selves to gain power to "save" humanity and got lost in the way and now are humanity's greatest enemy, they are the villains of a Disney movie.

3) chaos codex where about options (didn't touch 3rd though), so you could have something between a rooky and a guy which fought in every time and place possible, it was present in fluff and game the "Power at a cost" thing, and now it fell more like you turn to the chaos gods just for the pleasure of getting F in the A (IA vol. 9 is a great example where Huron was a more powerful guy when he didn't worship chaos)

now on topic CSM don't need the DE treatment, they have enough good fluff, they just need to bring the old one back changing thing like they did in 4th no thank you. although they could expand on how chaos deal with xenos more, we only no they are xeno scum for them and use nid ships, even that isnīt very explicit.

For models some thing need a revamp, and some new units would be good but nothing to drastic.

That infamous quote is bad, and we all know it. However, there is still plenty of the old feel in the fluff. Many seem to forget that the release of a codex does not supersede the old fluff: as far as the look and "feel" of an army goes, it's the result of everything published on them since RT, so that older outlook on Chaos is still there, it just depends which way you want to focus.

I am sure that Chaos still have all the hatred, self righteousness and superiority you mention, once again it all depends on which way you want to focus. People should stop thinking of this codex as a change in the fluff, and look at it as an expansion. Ok, yes some renegades are just SM's playing at being the bad boys, but the Traitor Legions and some Renegades are just the same as they always were. Both exist, you can choose to play whichever one you like.

In any case, the answer to the OP's question is still a no, I'm sure we all agree. :D

White_13oy
09-11-2010, 06:00
I want my World Eaters to be World Eater again, not Black Legion painted red. Why is it that the Khorne DP is the worst in melee? He has ONE flipping option, wings. I remember when a Daemon Prince was a feared HQ, now, he's just pathetic, merely a mobile lash dude. I hate psykers and don't use them, but having to buy every power when everyone else gets some for free and the upgrades are cheaper. My Chaos is shelved until a Legions book comes out so I can play my favorite army in the entire game again. I personally feel that GW spit in the face of it Chaos players who played the Legions. You may have fun with the emorines, but I don't. I'm a fluff and theme player and they took it all out for me. I did give it a try with making my own warband, but it just felt sad and boring when my only option is either a, b, or, c. the Chaos Lord doesn't even have a lot of options, the whole second half of his profile is the same previous weapons re-costed for terminator armor, and even then some are the same point cost.

Born Again
09-11-2010, 07:44
I want my World Eaters to be World Eater again, not Black Legion painted red. Why is it that the Khorne DP is the worst in melee? He has ONE flipping option, wings. I remember when a Daemon Prince was a feared HQ, now, he's just pathetic, merely a mobile lash dude. I hate psykers and don't use them, but having to buy every power when everyone else gets some for free and the upgrades are cheaper. My Chaos is shelved until a Legions book comes out so I can play my favorite army in the entire game again. I personally feel that GW spit in the face of it Chaos players who played the Legions. You may have fun with the emorines, but I don't. I'm a fluff and theme player and they took it all out for me. I did give it a try with making my own warband, but it just felt sad and boring when my only option is either a, b, or, c. the Chaos Lord doesn't even have a lot of options, the whole second half of his profile is the same previous weapons re-costed for terminator armor, and even then some are the same point cost.

Funny that. I'm a fluff and theme player too. I don't play "emorines" either, and similarly feel that the book is lacking in options. However, army theme means making a flavoursome list from what you have in the list as a whole, not being given a book that says "World Eater armies take this" in a cookie cutter fashion. It's highly likely you'll get your wishes in the next version of the codex, so just wait with some patience and you'll get your way.

HK-47
09-11-2010, 09:08
I really think that the chaos codex needs to be redone, especially in terms of fluff, the new codex focus too much on post-heresy chapters going renegade and the only legion describe in detail is the Black Legion. All of the legions should be given the same level of details and I really think they should be sections detailing life in the Eye of Terror. The focus should be moved away from just pissed off Ultramarine sergeants falling to Chaos to the Long War and having the Chaos Marines be not just some rebels or pirates, although that should sill be part of the fluff, but a true political and military force that's dedicated to the destruction of the Emperor, and the reforming of humanity into the servants of the Chaos Gods.


We fight the long war, not through vain notions of duty and honour, but through a far purer purpose: hatred. At the height of our glory we were betrayed and cast out by our kin. Guilliman, Dorn, Sanguinius - these are names I curse. Horus, Perturabo, Angron - these are names I revere, names I would follow to the very end. It is this hatred that has sustained me through the long millennia. I tend it with bitterness. I nurture it with the deaths of my former brothers. For I know that when the end is upon us and Horus is returned, then the false emperor shall be cast down from his sepulchral Golden Throne, and we shall take our rightful place at the side of Horus, the true Emperor of Mankind.

This is from the 3rd edition, and I think should be the main focus point of Chaos Marine fluff. It should be a mixture of H.P. Lovecraft, John Milton, and Dante. The unending armies of the Eldritch gods marching forth from hell, being lead by tragic figures that are so full of hate, and pride that they can't see that they lost their very humanity, seeking to destroy the thing they help build so that they can "free" humanity and usher in a new "golden age".

AlphariusOmegon20
09-11-2010, 15:46
Ok, no offence, but I too have been playing Chaos for a long time: some 15 years. I'm not agreeing with a major overhaul though. I pretty much agree with your summary of the codeciis/ codexes/ whatever plural is in vogue this week, up until the current one. As far as your statements on that go, I simply say: "Why?" You seem to have not only a distaste for it, but some serious vitriol. However you haven't given any explanation apart from, basically, "it sucks". So what's your reasoning on it being so bad?

It changed from being "Legion" based lists (though I agree that some "legions" would be no more than a small warband) to a total mess of warbands.


There are no FOC changes for using certain characters. Every list looks the same pretty much as there really isn't many builds in the current codex.


My vitrol towards the current codex is quite real, as I feel that Chaos has lost it's "flavor" with the current codex. I understand to a point why it was changed to focus more on the warbands aspect, however, in doing so, it makes it hard to have a serious "Legion" list, even one that is warband sized.

I have Iron Warriors. Where are my Bassies? And my Servo arms? They exist no longer and there is no adequate representation for those things in the current codex. What made my army unique was written out of the book and I see no reason why that it was. I also have an EC army. I miss having not only Noise Marine Havocs, but Noise Marine Termies and Vehicles, as it was quite fluffy. Would a sentence or two extra under the Noise Marine entry to allow for these things been that much of an inconvenience? I say no, it wouldn't have.

Granted I still have some recourse under the guise of Apoc for most of these things, but the uniqueness of Chaos in the basic game is sorely lacking with the current codex. I agree with those here that have stated that Chaos has become no more than "spiky marines". It is time to bring the flavor back to Chaos and to course correct appears to me that to do so, would mean Chaos is in need of a major overhaul.

loveless
09-11-2010, 15:54
If Chaos Marines get the Dark Eldar treatment, doesn't that mean that you guys won't see a new Chaos Marine Codex until about 2017 or so? :angel:

McLucien18
09-11-2010, 15:58
If Chaos Marines get the Dark Eldar treatment, doesn't that mean that you guys won't see a new Chaos Marine Codex until about 2017 or so? :angel:

Or rather 2019... :p

Lucien

Kaelarr
09-11-2010, 16:12
We all know the current codex is rubbish. Jervis was contradicting himself the whokle way through it. He put out official quotes saying it was a book about renegade space marines. So renegade marines who just so happened to leave a bunch of their stuff at home? I remember reading that and going "oh god this codex will be dire...."

And guess what?

The fluff just needs to be reeled back, and have the chaff cut out of it. Lets face it with the heresy novels have have literally tonnes of fluff which is good.

The codex just needs more thought. If it got the same thought into it as the DE then we would all be happy.

GW needs to end the renegade marine crap, just play a spikey marine list for that. Give us full blooded traitor legions.

Erwos
09-11-2010, 17:07
And, before we go down the road to hell again, let me remind the crowd that we did a warbands vs legions vs both poll. Legions won, both came in a respectable second, and warbands came in a distant third. The Legions are popular, even more so with the Horus Heresy books. Bringing them back to the forefront would be regarded as a good thing by most players.

The Chaos fluff is fine, when you remember the older stuff. The problem is our list, and I'm not going to lie: I thought that 3.5E was pretty much how it should be, excluding the obvious balance problems it had. The only addition I would make is adding a recent-renegades sublist with some more recent Imperial gear (Razorbacks, storm bolters, and more recent terminator weapons, perhaps in exchange for daemons or cult troops) and a good unaligned FA vehicle.

I am optimistic that we'll get treated well in 2012 or 2013, and given the recent SM and DE codexes, magical unlockable lists will probably be coming back to town.

AlphariusOmegon20
09-11-2010, 17:18
And, before we go down the road to hell again, let me remind the crowd that we did a warbands vs legions vs both poll. Legions won, both came in a respectable second, and warbands came in a distant third. The Legions are popular, even more so with the Horus Heresy books. Bringing them back to the forefront would be regarded as a good thing by most players.

The Chaos fluff is fine, when you remember the older stuff. The problem is our list, and I'm not going to lie: I thought that 3.5E was pretty much how it should be, excluding the obvious balance problems it had. The only addition I would make is adding a recent-renegades sublist with some more recent Imperial gear (Razorbacks, storm bolters, and more recent terminator weapons, perhaps in exchange for daemons or cult troops) and a good unaligned FA vehicle.

I am optimistic that we'll get treated well in 2012 or 2013, and given the recent SM and DE codexes, magical unlockable lists will probably be coming back to town.

Honestly I've never figured out how GW could justify that in 10K years, no one in Chaos has been smart enough to reverse engineer a Razorback turret or a variant of the Whirlwind.

It really wouldn't take a massive genius to do so. IW are supposedly always tinkering with things. You'd think they would have figured it out by now. They figured out the Vindi.

Mannimarco
09-11-2010, 17:33
It really just needs the range and diversity to make different Chaos armies. The new design philosphy of the time really did screw us over fortunately GW have realised that less is not more, less is actually less. The "you dont need rules to make the army, just paint them that way" wouldnt go down to well with others if it were continued today I dont think. Your space wolves dont "need" a codex, just paint your marines bluey grey! salamanders dont "need" fancy magical flamers and melta guns, just paint your army green and voila! salamanders! Sadly this is what Chaos players have to deal with. Want a Night Lords army? dark blue with lightning on them, Word Bearers? you dont "need" cultists and Dark Apostles, just paint your marines dark red and job done! To the person above who wanted Iron Warriors: You dont "need" rules for any of that stuff, just paint them silver with little black and yellow chevrons. Thats right Chaos fans, playing your favourite legion couldnt be any simpler!

As cookie cutter as some might say the previous versions of the dex were (suppose thats true as even with all those options it was mostly the same ones that were taken) I would have to argue that this dex is even more cookie cutter.

Ok to start my army I need a leader: Sorcerer? To expensive and powers are poor: skip him, Lord? ok now we're talking, it doesnt matter if he cant be used to represent a Legion lord and has little in the way of options now. Just by the time you have geared up a good lord you might as well take a prince for the same price who is actually better on the table and hey princes are so cheap and decent you might as well take 2. Doesnt matter if all their options have been stripped away to "wings or no wings" and whens the last time you saw a prince who didnt have wings? Cookie cutter stuff right there.

While it is said that ALL World Eaters are berserkers not all berserkers are World Eaters so although your lord can have the MOK he has none of the berserker abilites therefore we must reason he isnt a WE lord. All Death Guard are plague marines, a lord/sorc with the MON has no PM skills therefore he isnt from the DG.

Sadly most Chaos armies look very similar these days (especially the competitive ones) so I must reason that the new Chaos codex is in fact more cookie cutter than the previous one.

The thing about wanting the Legions back is they dont actually exist anymore! short of a considerable rewrite I fear we are doomed to see every cult marine being a merc and just hiring himself out to any passing spiky pirate warband. Your thousand Sons (like anybody actually takes them) will quite happily work alongside your plague marines. khorne berserkers will happily work with noise marines like the battle of Skalathrax never happened. All this will happen under the command of Spiky Bob the pirate.

AlphaLegionMarine
09-11-2010, 17:51
I'd like to not see a special character unlock options and they move more towards something like the following:

If a player wanted to play Word Bearers, they can take a Dark Apostle. It grants the nice weapon they get and allows Demons to hold objectives or something. (An example only)

An Alpha Legion Lord or Sorceror unlocks infiltrating Troop slot Marines and cultists as troops.

Etc...

This gets the game away from wow Alpharius is in every list I see from Alpha Legion players and counts as Alpha Legion homebrew chapters.

I think this would allow you to add the weapon options you wanted to personally tailor your Legion Commander instead of getting the same wargear every time.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
09-11-2010, 17:52
The only addition I would make is adding a recent-renegades sublist with some more recent Imperial gear (Razorbacks, storm bolters, and more recent terminator weapons, perhaps in exchange for daemons or cult troops) and a good unaligned FA vehicle.


You know what would work really well for a recent renegade list? Codex: Space Marines. I mean it has all the space marine units in it already! Fancy that. :)

Aside from the neutering of options, Chaos also suffered from the loss of the different varieties of Daemon. Initially Daemons were a significant unique aspect of chaos, but by splitting them into their own book Chaos was left with nothing of their own. To fill the gap GW needs to seriously step up the Daemonic engine presence in the book.

Yes they could just fill out the list with reverse engineered razorbacks and whirlwinds, but the list will be poorer for it. Let's get something NEW for Chaos, not just a copy and paste of loyalist garbage.

Baragash
09-11-2010, 17:54
Really what they should do is revert CSM Codex to Legions, as per the designer notes in the 3.5 Ed Codex that say words to the effect of "Legions is what players want".

Throw in some Daemon Engine stuff a la Forge World for distinctiveness, and character FoC fun and you're almost there.

I do prefer the Daemon/CSM split though, so I would rather see Daemons in the CSM Codex God-differentiated by a simple Mark and kept around the edges as they are now.

As for Renegades, all they need to do is add a CSM special character to the next loyalist marine dex that allows the current CSM generic daemons and voila, instant theming.

Draconis
09-11-2010, 17:56
Couldnt agree more.

Erwos
09-11-2010, 18:11
Yes they could just fill out the list with reverse engineered razorbacks and whirlwinds, but the list will be poorer for it. Let's get something NEW for Chaos, not just a copy and paste of loyalist garbage.
My own opinion is that more options never hurt anyone. A recent renegade sublist that provided access to these in return for something meaningful would not hurt the codex. Once you've been traitor for a thousand years, your force org changes... a lot. But it's not like you toss out all your old gear. The old 2E codex had rules for this, and there's no reason a 5E/6E codex couldn't.

I agree that, ultimately, making daemons into generic ones was a good plan, but they need to slide back a little and give us marks and fast daemons. Similarly, while I think I'd support units of cultists and rogue IG platoons in the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion sublists, I just feel like LatD deserve better than what they'd get in a CSM codex.

Lord Inquisitor
09-11-2010, 18:12
We all know the current codex is rubbish. Jervis was contradicting himself the whokle way through it. He put out official quotes saying it was a book about renegade space marines. So renegade marines who just so happened to leave a bunch of their stuff at home? I remember reading that and going "oh god this codex will be dire...."
Gav and Alessio (who wrote it) were saying that there would be merely be more of a focus on other renegades beyond the legions. I think they achieved that.

I don't think the codex was rubbish. Modelwise, we saw some great new kits like the possessed and terminators. The rules were generally pretty well made, some exceptions but I prefer it to the previous rules and it's vastly superior to my mind that the horrible messes of the 5th edition codecies. They were simple and while I wouldn't mind a few more options particularly for cult troops, it was a well designed codex. The fluff was passable, can't think of much that annoyed me. Compared with Codex Ultramarines-are-the-bestest-evah and Codex Everything-needs-the-word-Blood-in-it? Actually not that bad.

I regard a putative new codex with trepidation. There are certainly ways it could be improved, don't get me wrong. But I would hate to see a codex in the vein of many here seem to want.


My own opinion is that more options never hurt anyone. A recent renegade sublist that provided access to these in return for something meaningful would not hurt the codex.

Codex Craftworlds produced many of the most broken lists in 3rd/4th. Similarly, in WFB, the Storm of Chaos produced many very lopsided or wacky lists.

More lists = more problems, unless they're playtested properly. Which GW don't seem to be doing a lot of these days for their main lists.

Logan_uc
09-11-2010, 18:27
Really what they should do is revert CSM Codex to Legions, as per the designer notes in the 3.5 Ed Codex that say words to the effect of "Legions is what players want".

Throw in some Daemon Engine stuff a la Forge World for distinctiveness, and character FoC fun and you're almost there.

I do prefer the Daemon/CSM split though, so I would rather see Daemons in the CSM Codex God-differentiated by a simple Mark and kept around the edges as they are now.

As for Renegades, all they need to do is add a CSM special character to the next loyalist marine dex that allows the current CSM generic daemons and voila, instant theming.

yep on the daemon part, having different daemons from daemon codex is a god thing if you have options to make them more linked to a specific god, it represents the fact that daemons have a lot of variety, and that CSM may make pacts that aren't with the gods them selves but other powerful entity's that may have other tastes.

has for renegades they don't really need something special, depending on who far they have fallen they can use SM or CSM codex to represent them, huron is enough.

As for some changes adding mutants/cultists/traitors to the list would be a good change to make them stand more away form SM, and it fits the fluff because the organisation of the legions didn't change like the SM did and gives a greater fell the difference in power level in the armies of chaos, but it will never happen:cries:

x-esiv-4c
09-11-2010, 18:27
Ok so they did an excellent "renegades" book. So since I play Deathguard should I use 4th ed codex since I don't actually play renegades? Why do plaguemarines in the Renegade book have different stats then in the chaos book?

Ulrig
09-11-2010, 18:31
I would say yes, in respects to models, layout of book and fluff.

I would love to see a complete overhaul on the chaos space marine models. No more funky looking power back packs and helmets. Less spikey also. I think the armour should be kept to older mk versions, with some chaos customizing to them, such as chaos emblems, "random" spikes and trophies attached to armour. Make it look like they have been wearing this armour forever, or salvaged it from past battles. Mutations would be ok of course, determining on what chaos god they are devoted to. Hell they might not be dedicated to any chaos god at all.

I would also love to see cultist and renegades. Completely viable builds with hoards of squishy humans. The book to be formed around build types much like the ork codex.

Lots of good fluff, there is a ton of rich history and story here, we do not want the cliff notes.

Tarrisvaal
09-11-2010, 18:43
Model wise, I actually like the OPs idea of having older marks of armour as the 'standard' for chaos marine models - particularly the terminators.

Not only does this also open the way for convertors to attack them to make heresy era loyalists, but helps to really make them distinctly different visually from classic space marines. Having a few 'newer' mark models scattered about as well would also help to keep the 'renegade' option open.

As for the codices and the rules in them, as much as I'd like to see specific legion books, it won't happen, and Im not sure it should - how often does warseer complain about new loyalist marine books coming out without adding even more MEQ codex releases into the mix?

A Chaos marine book with some legion specific characters unlocking or fiddling the force org chart (ala codex space marines) and a seperate lost and the damned book would be fine. Doesn't even really need allies rules, as you could argue that, that would work best in Apocalypse anyway (which of course doesnt care about such trivial matters like what unit came from what book)

Logan_uc
09-11-2010, 19:04
Gav and Alessio (who wrote it) were saying that there would be merely be more of a focus on other renegades beyond the legions. I think they achieved that.

I don't think the codex was rubbish. Modelwise, we saw some great new kits like the possessed and terminators. The rules were generally pretty well made, some exceptions but I prefer it to the previous rules and it's vastly superior to my mind that the horrible messes of the 5th edition codecies. They were simple and while I wouldn't mind a few more options particularly for cult troops, it was a well designed codex. The fluff was passable, can't think of much that annoyed me. Compared with Codex Ultramarines-are-the-bestest-evah and Codex Everything-needs-the-word-Blood-in-it? Actually not that bad.

I regard a putative new codex with trepidation. There are certainly ways it could be improved, don't get me wrong. But I would hate to see a codex in the vein of many here seem to want.



Codex Craftworlds produced many of the most broken lists in 3rd/4th. Similarly, in WFB, the Storm of Chaos produced many very lopsided or wacky lists.

More lists = more problems, unless they're playtested properly. Which GW don't seem to be doing a lot of these days for their main lists.

I completely disagree with you except with the part "more list = more problems"

The codex didn't focus more on renegades it did it to the point where the legions where put in a tertiary place (word bearers didn't even get a illustration)

For models you got a redo in CSM got some good plastic termis and possessed, a awful chaos spawn and a vindicator that came with chaos bits instead of imperial bits (the dozer blade has imperial motif), considering that we had a lot of models that needed a remake, it wasn't bad but it wasn't great.

Codex chaos was all about options if you simplify to much it takes its soul away, less some times is more but not in this case, you had space used in unnecessary things that didn't bring nothing to the fluff or the table, the codex wasn't simple its bland.

And who can you say the rules where well made, I really don't remember a codex with less internal balance, and as far as rules that make a good representation of the fluff it failed, I'm a death guard player and the new plague marines are just uber tough marines, The plague part in there name isn't there, and there is nothing to link them to death guard which as almost exclusiveness on plague marines.

Col. Tartleton
09-11-2010, 19:28
Yeah if there's one thing that bothers me its the chaos models. They don't look like the Horus Heresy guys 10,000 years later. They look like bad guy fodder. They should look like heresy era marines covered in a thick layer of insanity. The regular marines look way more serious. That's not good.

Grim Dark. If there's going to be grimdark its with chaos. I want your basic marine wearing a garland of infant skulls around his neck or a with a civilian impaled on his back banner... these are eight foot tall half ton killing machines with a lot of time on their hands. The fluff is full of descriptions of enemies laying half alive disemboweled on racks they strap to their vehicles. How about a noise marine having a cage strapped to their back with a little girl in it.

Charistoph
09-11-2010, 20:15
Should they get a full revamp? No, no need.

Are they unplayable? No, they're very playable.

Are they bland and boring? Only when not compared to Necrons.

The current codex is like walking into Baskin Robbins and the only ice cream they have is vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry, and no cones, only cups. Sure, you get good ice cream, but you're missing all the options you go to Baskin Robbins for.

Badger[Fr]
09-11-2010, 20:22
The 5th edition Chaos Codex is hands down one of the worst Codices ever designed. I, fore one, do not care much about Legions, as I play a custom chapter. I don't mind streamlining either.

But the rules are so badly written it's hardly believable. The internal balance is laughable. From a competitive point of view, it's an utter disaster, considering the sheer lack of versatility and synergies of CSM. It almost looks like units were designed and thrown together at random with next to no attention given to the viability and the coherence of the army as a whole.

The more streamlined a Codex is, the better its internal balance should be: considering the limited unit choices CSM players have, you'd expect at least a majority of these to be viable.

Charistoph
09-11-2010, 20:35
Is now a bad time to point out that there is no 5th Edition CSM codex, anymore than a 5th Eldar or Dark Angels?

Unless they revert back to that point, the 5th Edition CSM codex will be looking at a Tyranid-level of expansion at minimum, and a Blood Angels at maximum.

Erwos
09-11-2010, 20:37
Are they unplayable? No, they're very playable.
They're at the point where they're running at a serious cost disadvantage versus newer codexes, and the new Dark Eldar codex didn't do them any favors. I'd say that outside of the usual power lists, Chaos is starting to become marginal. If you're willing to go the DP/PM/Oblit route, I'd call them acceptable, no more. Chaos isn't alone in that boat (the Tau came along for the ride), but it's not one you want to go sailing in anyways.

Logan_uc
09-11-2010, 20:46
Should they get a full revamp? No, no need.

Are they unplayable? No, they're very playable.

Are they bland and boring? Only when not compared to Necrons.

The current codex is like walking into Baskin Robbins and the only ice cream they have is vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry, and no cones, only cups. Sure, you get good ice cream, but you're missing all the options you go to Baskin Robbins for.

Wrong wrong wrong, you get the ice cream they sell in carnivals or flea markets that no one knows where it came from, it seems to have a lot of flavours (it as red blue green, if there's a colour you will find it there) it doesn't taste like nothing, and 90% of the times you will spend the next day at the toilet.

Should they get a full revamp? No just forget that 4th ed ever existed and go back to the old fluff.

Are they unplayable? if you don't use lash obliterator list you may win a game vs necrons or tau, so yes its possible to play with them but expect to be the under dog 95% of the times.

Are they bland and boring? if you look in a dictionary under bland and boring you will see codex: CSM in bold, even necrons have better fluff and more diverse lists (taking in to account there power level of course)

loveless
09-11-2010, 20:56
Is now a bad time to point out that there is no 5th Edition CSM codex, anymore than a 5th Eldar or Dark Angels?


You know, you think people would realize that, but they don't :p

It seems some people are referring to "Chaos 3.5" as "Chaos 4", making the real "Chaos 4" their "Chaos 5"? Still with me? Good.

Chaos Marines haven't been updated for 5th edition yet. They'll get a spiffy new Codex, but frankly, they're not at the top of the list. We need to get rid of the remaind 3rd Edition codices first, then we can worry about updating the 4th Edition books.

They didn't start making 5th Edition books until Orks (roughly - that was arguably a hybrid edition, as was Daemons) - wherein some rules simply didn't make sense under 4th, though it was still playable.

I've got counts in my sig - Chaos Marines are in the second group.

Lord Inquisitor
09-11-2010, 20:57
;5108256']But the rules are so badly written it's hardly believable. The internal balance is laughable. From a competitive point of view, it's an utter disaster, considering the sheer lack of versatility and synergies of CSM.

Compared with what? Seems to me that compared with Imperial Guard or Tyranids the internal balance is not bad (Plague Marines and Lash are a bit good, spawn, lords and possessed poor) but most units in the army are usable. Guard and 'Nids have far worse internal balance to my mind. Both are massively more complex from a rules perspective - the Chaos Codex is cleanly written, unlike the morass of special rules that are the later codecies.

I certainly see no evidence whatsoever that balance has been improved upon in the 5th ed codecies. I have literally never seen a 5e Space Wolf army without Logan Grimnar, a bunch of Wolf Guard and Long Fangs. Yeah, Space Wolves have more options - great, I just love facing Lone Wolves and Thunderwolves with stormshields and thunderhammers. Funny how "more options" results in less variability as one of those options ends up being optimal. What I don't see is Space Wolf armies with Grey Hunters and Blood Claws (not a single Blood Claw!). Yet I see Plague Marines, Bezerkers, Noise Marines, Lesser Daemons - even Thousand Sons on the tables as well as basic CSM on occasion. Most of the Chaos FOC gets used - Fast Attack is the only area they're truly weak on.

Charistoph
09-11-2010, 22:10
Wrong wrong wrong, you get the ice cream they sell in carnivals or flea markets that no one knows where it came from, it seems to have a lot of flavours (it as red blue green, if there's a colour you will find it there) it doesn't taste like nothing, and 90% of the times you will spend the next day at the toilet.

Should they get a full revamp? No just forget that 4th ed ever existed and go back to the old fluff.

Are they unplayable? if you don't use lash obliterator list you may win a game vs necrons or tau, so yes its possible to play with them but expect to be the under dog 95% of the times.

Are they bland and boring? if you look in a dictionary under bland and boring you will see codex: CSM in bold, even necrons have better fluff and more diverse lists (taking in to account there power level of course)

I am not wrong, I am just approaching it from a different perspective. You complain about fielding Space Marines and being unplayable. My Kroot and Fire Warriors can only hold an objective if they are in Woods or in a Tank, and that's it for Troops. You complain about a "useless" Sorceror, when the Tau have a T3 no save model that when he easily dies has a good chance of having anything not mounted running for the hills! Necrons have only ONE Troop unit that has two options, size and krak grenades.

I get that CSM were really powerful in the previous codex, and that the current codex is an amatuer playing Mozart, but they are still Mozart compared to the Barney songs that those of us that are stuck with previous codecies are forced to use.

Logan_uc
09-11-2010, 22:15
Compared with what? Seems to me that compared with Imperial Guard or Tyranids the internal balance is not bad (Plague Marines and Lash are a bit good, spawn, lords and possessed poor) but most units in the army are usable. Guard and 'Nids have far worse internal balance to my mind. Both are massively more complex from a rules perspective - the Chaos Codex is cleanly written, unlike the morass of special rules that are the later codecies.

I certainly see no evidence whatsoever that balance has been improved upon in the 5th ed codecies. I have literally never seen a 5e Space Wolf army without Logan Grimnar, a bunch of Wolf Guard and Long Fangs. Yeah, Space Wolves have more options - great, I just love facing Lone Wolves and Thunderwolves with stormshields and thunderhammers. Funny how "more options" results in less variability as one of those options ends up being optimal. What I don't see is Space Wolf armies with Grey Hunters and Blood Claws (not a single Blood Claw!). Yet I see Plague Marines, Bezerkers, Noise Marines, Lesser Daemons - even Thousand Sons on the tables as well as basic CSM on occasion. Most of the Chaos FOC gets used - Fast Attack is the only area they're truly weak on.

Try and look at the percentage of sub-par units in codex csm and the Nid and guard codex and things change, and a lot of useless units of those codex are usable like those in csm

As for your SW comment, I've seen almost all units in there codex in use, and with success in games, and if you are saying that CSM codex has better internal balance then SW I will assume that you are here just for the "fun" of trolling sir:)

Logan_uc
09-11-2010, 22:27
I am not wrong, I am just approaching it from a different perspective. You complain about fielding Space Marines and being unplayable. My Kroot and Fire Warriors can only hold an objective if they are in Woods or in a Tank, and that's it for Troops. You complain about a "useless" Sorceror, when the Tau have a T3 no save model that when he easily dies has a good chance of having anything not mounted running for the hills! Necrons have only ONE Troop unit that has two options, size and krak grenades.

I get that CSM were really powerful in the previous codex, and that the current codex is an amatuer playing Mozart, but they are still Mozart compared to the Barney songs that those of us that are stuck with previous codecies are forced to use.

I'm not saying that there aren't codex out there that are worst (tau ice cream is just ice, and the necron one is ice made with sewage water), but saying that because there are worst codex doesn't mean that csm is any good.

But there is a thing that tau and necrons have better than csm and that a army with character that reflects there back ground, csm doesn't have that.

I for one use the old codex when I can, its probably worst game wise but it gives me a much more enjoyable game.

Lord Inquisitor
09-11-2010, 22:41
Try and look at the percentage of sub-par units in codex csm and the Nid and guard codex and things change, and a lot of useless units of those codex are usable like those in csm

As for your SW comment, I've seen almost all units in there codex in use, and with success in games, and if you are saying that CSM codex has better internal balance then SW I will assume that you are here just for the "fun" of trolling sir:)

Maybe you have but I've not seen any Space Wolf armies without Grimnar at a wide variety of tournaments. I don't play Space Wolves, I can only go by what I see against me in tournaments. Maybe grey hunters, blood claws, bikers and soforth are fantastically balanced, but I don't see 'em. Because Grimnar is borked and screws the whole army up. An army where none of the players I know take any Troops choices at all is not one with good internal balance.

As for Guard and Nids... they're just not internally balanced - certainly not anymore than Chaos. Looking at IG: Primaris, Lord Commissars, Priests, Techpriests, Penal Legionnaires, Conscripts, Ogryns, Ratlings, Storm Troopers, pretty much everything in the Elite section, Sentinels, rough riders, swathes of tanks like the Punisher or Devil Dog or Basilisk. Half the units in the book at least don't get used! At the opposite end of the spectrum, veterans in chimera, valkyries and vendettas, manticores... all bit too good and form the basis of the leafblower which is all I really see on the tables.

There's no way you can convince me that the IG have good internal balance or even better than the Chaos Space Marines. I feel I have a lot more choice in competitive units when playing my Chaos than my IG. I like my IG army - but I like penal legionnaires, stormtroopers, ogryns and psykers (since it's a chaos-themed IG I like the freakshow stuff). And I do play it. But not at tournaments.

Seismic
09-11-2010, 23:15
Chaos doesn't need the Dark Eldar treatment.

In fact chaos , is far better played as a "count-as" army using Space marine books. To that end chaos ought to be scrapped to make way for even more Space marine variants; Everyone of those books ought to include a section on a renegade foundings or Chapters looked upon with suspicion.

Moreover, Space marine releases tend to mesh well one another and the continuous cycle of releases makes them far more apt to adequately represent a play style: Mass Tank gun line from the Ba , for example, to match the IW (Because Ba just screams 6 preds). Or A Terminator heavy list from the Sw to represent Rubric terminators with multiple psyker to boot. It makes no sense to build an entire "new" power armour army if they'd already cover most (if not all) play style.

Quite frankly ,The recent Dark Eldars are a blip. Gw usually doesn't spend this much effort on a non-imperial release (Even though they should since they don't update them frequently) And it will be an other 10 years before they get updated again, while we might end up seeing a dozen or more Marine books before then.

If anything GW should release a "Synaptic Marine" chapter , and like a "Green skin Marine" chapter and just stick them in their rotation and scrap the Orks & Nids as well.

There , problem solved.

Logan_uc
10-11-2010, 00:31
Maybe you have but I've not seen any Space Wolf armies without Grimnar at a wide variety of tournaments. I don't play Space Wolves, I can only go by what I see against me in tournaments. Maybe grey hunters, blood claws, bikers and soforth are fantastically balanced, but I don't see 'em. Because Grimnar is borked and screws the whole army up. An army where none of the players I know take any Troops choices at all is not one with good internal balance.

As for Guard and Nids... they're just not internally balanced - certainly not anymore than Chaos. Looking at IG: Primaris, Lord Commissars, Priests, Techpriests, Penal Legionnaires, Conscripts, Ogryns, Ratlings, Storm Troopers, pretty much everything in the Elite section, Sentinels, rough riders, swathes of tanks like the Punisher or Devil Dog or Basilisk. Half the units in the book at least don't get used! At the opposite end of the spectrum, veterans in chimera, valkyries and vendettas, manticores... all bit too good and form the basis of the leafblower which is all I really see on the tables.

There's no way you can convince me that the IG have good internal balance or even better than the Chaos Space Marines. I feel I have a lot more choice in competitive units when playing my Chaos than my IG. I like my IG army - but I like penal legionnaires, stormtroopers, ogryns and psykers (since it's a chaos-themed IG I like the freakshow stuff). And I do play it. But not at tournaments.

I'm not saying they have a good internal balance, most of the units you say aren't worst that most csm units, and if we are talking competitive for chaos you use Daemon prince, plague marines in rhinos and obliterators, you may see a prince from nurgle and zerks from time to time but that's it 4 units in a codex at most, and an army of IG using those sub par units would give a run for the money to the lash/obliterator list.

Using tournaments as a example isn't a good thing, there is always a unit combination that is slightly better and you will see it over and over again, doesn't mean that other builds aren't competitive is just they aren't as good.

P.S: a good example of this is my change from iron warrior to death guard, I started with IW, but as every one and there dog started playing them, I picked up some green stuff an my IW and made them in to death guard, it wasn't as powerful as IW but it was close and still won almost as many times as with iron warriors, oh and Alfa legion was also a very nice surprise when no one was expecting.

Lord Inquisitor
10-11-2010, 00:53
For chaos units units I use and see used are: daemon princes, sorcerers, greater daemons, terminators, chosen, plague
marines, bezerkers, noise marines, lesser daemons, oblits, vindicator, defilers, land raiders. Dual lashprince, plagues and oblitspam is good but far from the only viable lists and very, very predictable.

Born Again
10-11-2010, 03:06
It changed from being "Legion" based lists (though I agree that some "legions" would be no more than a small warband) to a total mess of warbands.

I feel obliged to, once again, point out that warbands have been around since 2nd edition. There was no magic change in the current book, as far as this was concerned.

TheLaughingGod
10-11-2010, 03:19
I think what people don't understand, is that there ARE no true Legions anymore. There are Chaos marines who have survived and become Lords or Princes and essentially lead warbands around with the armor and heraldry of their original Legion.

There are no 10,000 year old legion vets who are not Lords.
Sorry.

Mannimarco
10-11-2010, 03:34
^ I hope this was a joke.

There is no such thing as a Word Bearer lord either cos there aint no Dark Apostles (who are actually chaplains but I digress)

There aint no Death Guard lords (except Typhus) cos hes the only DG HQ which is a plague marine.

There aint no WE lords cos apart from Kharn there are no berserker lords.

There aint no Night Lord lords cos there aint no talon masters.

There aint no such thing as an Emperors Children lord (Lucius excluded) cos theres no noise marine type lords

Actually you might be right, the legions dont exist anymore except as a bunch of happy go lucky mercs all selling themselves out to spiky bob and his merry bunch of pirates.....except the fractured World Eater legion who still managed to pull together somthing like 50k troops for the Reign of Blood or whatever it was called.

Lord Inquisitor
10-11-2010, 03:53
Which immediately begs the question - are these things necessary?

Do you NEED a "Word Bearers Chaos Lord" option that's just like a Chaos Lord only with a Cursed Crozius? Do we really need a "Thousand Sons Sorcerer Lord" as well as Arhiman, when Arhiman is an archetypal Thousand Sons Sorcerer Lord?

I'm fine with my only option for an Emperor's Children Lord being Lucius. It's necessary for limiting the options to a managable level to my mind.

Sure, I think we could do with a few more options, as the 'dex is a little barren. The option to give Cult troops options like Terminator armour or, where appropriate, bikes, extra heavy weapons, etc at the cost of moving to the appropriate FOC slot would be nice. A few extra wargear items for the characters - combat drugs for slaanesh, servo-arms for iron warriors, etc, available would be nice without needing to bring back the whole insanity of the 3.5 wargear list.

Charistoph
10-11-2010, 04:33
Which immediately begs the question - are these things necessary?

Do you NEED a "Word Bearers Chaos Lord" option that's just like a Chaos Lord only with a Cursed Crozius? Do we really need a "Thousand Sons Sorcerer Lord" as well as Arhiman, when Arhiman is an archetypal Thousand Sons Sorcerer Lord?

I'm fine with my only option for an Emperor's Children Lord being Lucius. It's necessary for limiting the options to a managable level to my mind.

Sure, I think we could do with a few more options, as the 'dex is a little barren. The option to give Cult troops options like Terminator armour or, where appropriate, bikes, extra heavy weapons, etc at the cost of moving to the appropriate FOC slot would be nice. A few extra wargear items for the characters - combat drugs for slaanesh, servo-arms for iron warriors, etc, available would be nice without needing to bring back the whole insanity of the 3.5 wargear list.

Which conversely asks the question, is there any reason NOT to have them available as an option? Current Codex Design Philosophy would tend to disagree with you. I love the amount of options available in all the new codecies, though quite a few are indeed over the top.

The 3.5 Codex was hardly insane with wargear and gifts, especially when you compare it to other 3.5/early 4th codecies such as Witch Hunters, Daemonhunters, and Black Templar.

What made 3.5 overpowered was a certain build that basically allowed a player to take the equivalent of a current 7 Heavy Support slots. The 4th Edition Codex was created to temper it down, but not only did they throw out the baby with the bath, but the rest of the bathroom along with it.

The 3.5 codex was a joy to read, and I had a habit of reading entire codecies. I still have yet to make it through all of 4th, even after have gone through most of the others.

So I restate my stance earlier. The 4th Edition Codex is a workable codex, but the soul has been ripped out of it and left in the gutter.

Draconis
10-11-2010, 04:36
No wolf armies without Grimnar? I hardly ever see them with. you have grimnar armies with missile launchers. You have razorback spam with units of greyhunters. You have wolf riders and then you have thunderwolf lords with wolf pets that basically give extra wounds. I can think of at least 4 different SW armies off the top of my head right now that are popular.

As for internal balance, you can't compare IG. The only reason they have a bad percentage is because they have like 40 entries in their codex.

Draconis
10-11-2010, 04:39
As for legions, if they didnt exist, then why do we keep getting novels from the black library that use them? I have 3 right now that deal with Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers. Funny how they shouldnt exist at all.... Not too mention they all have Black Legion listed somewhere in the novel.

Lord Inquisitor
10-11-2010, 04:53
Which conversely asks the question, is there any reason NOT to have them available as an option? Current Codex Design Philosophy would tend to disagree with you. I love the amount of options available in all the new codecies, though quite a few are indeed over the top.
Current design philosophy is a train wreck. Codex Creep is rampant, armies have excessive, pointless special rules. My favourite example is Gargolyes - they have (for no apparent reason, it's never been in the fluff) developed poisoned attacks. But instead of using the poisoned weapons rule from the rulebook, they have their own, unique poison rule! Army list design usually centers around the characters that unlock certain extreme builds. It's such a mess it's putting me off the game altogether.


The 3.5 Codex was hardly insane with wargear and gifts, especially when you compare it to other 3.5/early 4th codecies such as Witch Hunters, Daemonhunters, and Black Templar.
Witch Hunters didn't have a wargear list, a daemonic gift list, a veteran skill list and four god-specific lists. No other list has ever had anything approaching the number of individual combos Chaos had.


So I restate my stance earlier. The 4th Edition Codex is a workable codex, but the soul has been ripped out of it and left in the gutter.
I want a playable Codex. Even now, Codex Imperial Guard annoys me to play with. Too many fiddly, pointless special rules, too many great and iconic units like Stormtroopers obviously unplaytested.

I have an Emperor's Children army. It's a sexy, themed list done with the current codex. Giving my troops "infiltrate" (in their hot pink armour), or the ability to shoot frikkin' daemonic laser beams out their eyes is not something that I needed for the feel of the army.


No wolf armies without Grimnar? I hardly ever see them with. you have grimnar armies with missile launchers. You have razorback spam with units of greyhunters. You have wolf riders and then you have thunderwolf lords with wolf pets that basically give extra wounds. I can think of at least 4 different SW armies off the top of my head right now that are popular.
*Shrug* I can only comment on what I've seen. There's no doubt that Grimnar is popular to say the least in SW competitive lists. Sure, there are variations between mechanised wolf guard, wolf guard terminators in drop pods and all-foot-slogging wolf guard. Certainly the list is flexible and that's a good thing but that doesn't mean the internal balanced isn't borked, or at least no better than older codecies.


As for internal balance, you can't compare IG. The only reason they have a bad percentage is because they have like 40 entries in their codex.
Surely the percentage should be the same? It's obvious that half the entries in the IG book were never playtested, certainly not sufficiently. Making a codex with that many entries if you can't playtest them all also doesn't strike me as a well made codex.

Born Again
10-11-2010, 05:03
Actually you might be right, the legions dont exist anymore except as a bunch of happy go lucky mercs all selling themselves out to spiky bob and his merry bunch of pirates.....except the fractured World Eater legion who still managed to pull together somthing like 50k troops for the Reign of Blood or whatever it was called.

Actually, that is how it works. The Legions, all of them, are splintered. Some of these, dare I say it, "warbands" are a single squad, others are thousands strong. When the time comes for a Black Crusade or other large-scale invasion, they will all gather under a Lord of more power, similar to an Ork WAAAGH!

Look at it this way: each member of the Death Guard is free to do their own thing... after all, if they wanted to be told what to do, they could've stayed loyal to the Imperium. For most, however, it's beneficial to be part of a group, under a ruling champion. The champion makes the decisions on where they will go, who they will fight, addressing his own needs and goals, but any member of the group who is at odds with this is free to leave or kill him and take over. Barring this, however, the group led by their champion will continue to follow his lead. Eventually his personal aspirations and goals may make it beneficial for him to submit to a stronger, more powerful champion and become part of a larger, conglomerate warband, which may or may not be made up of fellow Death Guard members. Maybe a raid is organised to spread Nurgle's blessings, or maybe they ally with some Night Lords for mutual benefit. On occasion, a particularly high ranking and powerful Lord, or even Mortarion himself, will gather forces for a massive assault. On times like this, you will have tens of thousands of Death Guard all together, attacking in force... but other times, there's nothing to stop them doing whatever they want. It's quite simple, and standard for several other races as well.


[COLOR="Magenta"]Which immediately begs the question - are these things necessary?

Do you NEED a "Word Bearers Chaos Lord" option that's just like a Chaos Lord only with a Cursed Crozius? Do we really need a "Thousand Sons Sorcerer Lord" as well as Arhiman, when Arhiman is an archetypal Thousand Sons Sorcerer Lord?


Weeeeell... in some ways, no, not really. That's what Gav seemed to think when he wrote the book... but look at all the threads that has caused. The idea was "get a dark apostle with cursed crozius, use him as chaos lord with daemon weapon", but no, that's not good enough for some people. In some ways they're right and some ways they're wrong. If ALL books were like that there would be no issue... but then BA happened with over 9000 kinds of equipment with "blood" in the title.

Voss
10-11-2010, 05:26
They're at the point where they're running at a serious cost disadvantage versus newer codexes, and the new Dark Eldar codex didn't do them any favors.

Cost-wise, the new DE codex didn't affect them in any way at all. While some things when down in cost a bit (wyches, incubi, reavers and hellions- though hellions want some pretty expensive options on their helliarch), others went up (raiders, warriors- and the blasters and dark lances went up quite a bit). Other things like the talos, mandrakes and ravager didn't really change cost wise, but the talos and archon have options that can raise the price significantly. Grotesques and wracks are essentially new units that bear little relation to the old version.

So yeah, I wouldn't claim that CSM are a new cost disadvantage compared to the new dark eldar codex. The old staples went up in price, and a lot changed- so much that a great many dark eldar lists aren't going to be recognizable when compared to what came before. I know my list has roughly half the dark lances it once had, and a hell of lot more close combat units and template weapons. Especially the template weapons. Yum, yum.


@born again- Space Wolves were just as bad, if not worse.

HK-47
10-11-2010, 05:46
Current design philosophy is a train wreck. Codex Creep is rampant, armies have excessive, pointless special rules. My favourite example is Gargolyes - they have (for no apparent reason, it's never been in the fluff) developed poisoned attacks. But instead of using the poisoned weapons rule from the rulebook, they have their own, unique poison rule! Army list design usually centers around the characters that unlock certain extreme builds. It's such a mess it's putting me off the game altogether.


Witch Hunters didn't have a wargear list, a daemonic gift list, a veteran skill list and four god-specific lists. No other list has ever had anything approaching the number of individual combos Chaos had.


I want a playable Codex. Even now, Codex Imperial Guard annoys me to play with. Too many fiddly, pointless special rules, too many great and iconic units like Stormtroopers obviously unplaytested.

I have an Emperor's Children army. It's a sexy, themed list done with the current codex. Giving my troops "infiltrate" (in their hot pink armour), or the ability to shoot frikkin' daemonic laser beams out their eyes is not something that I needed for the feel of the army.


*Shrug* I can only comment on what I've seen. There's no doubt that Grimnar is popular to say the least in SW competitive lists. Sure, there are variations between mechanised wolf guard, wolf guard terminators in drop pods and all-foot-slogging wolf guard. Certainly the list is flexible and that's a good thing but that doesn't mean the internal balanced isn't borked, or at least no better than older codecies.


Surely the percentage should be the same? It's obvious that half the entries in the IG book were never playtested, certainly not sufficiently. Making a codex with that many entries if you can't playtest them all also doesn't strike me as a well made codex.

You see, this is your opinion, not everyone shares it, I love options I love the ability to be as versatile and as restrictive as I want to be and not be forced to have to take special characters to unlock them, or some other silliness.

I want to be able to play Death Guard without having to take Typhus to represent a plague marine lord, I want a Nurgle daemon prince that can take more opinions then just wings or no wings and have more Nurgle powers then just Nurgle's rot, more daemon weapons then just the Plague Bringer. I want Blight Drones, I want chem. cannons, and I want plague zombies. I want to be able to play a Nurgle war band and have it consist more than just a daemon prince and a handful of Plague Marines. I want an army of Nurgle! An army of undead monstrosities that spread diseases and despair, that refuse to die, that ooze Nihilism, Misanthropy, and Depression (both manic and major).

I don't care about competitiveness, I just want to be able to pick a theme and not be forced only to take one unit, take a special character to unlock more options, or have to resort to "count-as". I want to be able to take all of the crazy things we read about in the fluff and put it on the table and have it be playable, and not have to resort to all of this silliness. I want to be able to take a theme, and really make it something that's yours, so it can be a Nurgle army, but it doesn't have to be just X amount of plague marines.

Sorry, for the rambling and the argumentative tone.

Imperialis_Dominatus
10-11-2010, 05:51
I think part of 40ks problem is its an amalgamation of decades of material as shaped by dozens of very creative people.


They don't need a background rewrite, they just need careful compilation.

Man, if they would hire me for this job, I'd love to just sit around, read 40k background (all of it, ever), compile it, categorize it, edit it for consistency (or alter it for inconsistency when it makes sense, a la the Iron Cage or Alpha Legion), and release background sourcebooks for every army with all the up-to-date revised fluff. Along with continuously patched PDF Codices.

This will never happen though.


The original Horus Heresy veterans are, for the most part, dead. Any Chaos Marine who has survived ten thousand years of constant war is going to be a Chaos Lord at least, and almost certainly a Daemon Prince by now... Instead, put that 'TEN THOUSAND YEARS OF WAR' stuff in the entries for HQs, since some of them actually were alive since then.

I'm okay with this. Though I'd extend the possibility to Chosen and Terminator Chosen.


Abaddon ought to get round the fact that my squads run away. Lets face it they are more scared of him than they are of saving their own skins so will stick around more. A night Lords Raptor Lord that gives Hit and Run back to the raptors in his army. A Warsmith that lets you count Obliterators as elites, a Word Bearer Dark Apostle that acts like a chaplain with litanies of hate or something similar. I could think of these ideas all day. A bike lord that changes bikes to troops.

No, no, no. I am sick of alternate lists being relegated to special characters. It would work so much less restrictively a la Sagas that you can buy for your HQs that affect your army rather than that character.


This is devolving into edition wars at a shocking rate...

Was anything else expected? It's essentially a thread about the 'new' Chaos Codex. Which will likely be called that until the 5th edition Codex comes out.


STUFF(TM) is GW's current design ethos and it seems they've finally decided to stick to one for a change as it has the best chance of making them more money.

This is all I want really. I want to see GW stick to one design philosophy for a whole edition's range of rules and Codices. It's like watching a crack addict trying to quit. I don't think it can be done, and I want to be proven wrong.


This is from the 3rd edition, and I think should be the main focus point of Chaos Marine fluff. It should be a mixture of H.P. Lovecraft, John Milton, and Dante. The unending armies of the Eldritch gods marching forth from hell, being lead by tragic figures that are so full of hate, and pride that they can't see that they lost their very humanity, seeking to destroy the thing they help build so that they can "free" humanity and usher in a new "golden age".

I agree completely.


You know what would work really well for a recent renegade list? Codex: Space Marines. I mean it has all the space marine units in it already! Fancy that.

And also seconded.

Moving on to my own thoughts.

No, Chaos Space Marines don't need a complete overhaul. I do think that both the 3.5 and 4th edition Codices have good and bad points, it's just that one of them has far more good points for me.

Rules wise, neither are particularly balanced internally, either within units themselves, within the Force Organization Chart slot, or within the whole scope of the army. Dreads and Possessed have obvious sticking points that would be easy fixes. Fast Attack has literally no good choice (Raptors come close at mediocre). The idea that Cults only apply to bog-standard Chaos Space Marines drives me batty- this isn't Eldar, our Lords aren't Autarchs, some of them are fanatically devoted to one thing- just like their underlings. Some rules are also frankly patently ridiculous when applied to the enemy- Lash blows my mind every time I read it. It's not that it can't be worked around, it's the principle. Daemon Weapon rules feel slapped together. Spawn, while characterful, are terrible in-game.

The rules also don't seem too characterful compared to recent Codices. A warrior dedicated to the god of bloodshed, hate, and rage... gets another Attack. The other Marks are lackluster. I'd have current effects be the domain of Icons (if I kept them at all) and have Marks give a more Cult feel to whatever unit they were applied to. And the Tzeentchian Mark effect is just lame- not nearly enough deceit or psychic talent or trickiness. It's unsubtle and I dislike it. Bikes, other than being horrendously expensive, Terminators, Lords, Sorcerers, and Raptors just feel like their Loyalist counterparts sans ATSKNF. Daemon Princes could use options, especially Khornate ones. I feel that Thousand Sons are too heavily penalized as Rubrics, that Inferno Bolts are unimaginative, and that the Mark of Tzeentch as applied to them (4+ Invuln) is just as lame as when applied to any other unit. Noise Marines are a tough unit to figure out- should they be shooty or choppy or versatile? Defilers are cool but we need more Daemon Engines anyway. Tanks are all spiky Loyalist tanks, and our Land Raiders are especially lame. Daemons have no flavor, and there's no false dichotomy between Codex: Chaos Daemons Daemons and Codex: Chaos Space Marine Daemons. It does not have to be one or the other.

In terms of models the new Codex has interesting ideas and paint schemes but I think there were more conversions and showcases in the last Codex, which is really what I look for. New models are fantastic and all but it's what you do with them as studio members to really show them off that counts.

Artwork had some good concepts but execution in the new Codex was lackluster. The new stuff was grainy and unfinished, and the pieces that shone for me were what I had seen before in 3.5. The stuff in the Blood Angels and Space Wolves books blew me away in terms of how gothic, evocative, and detailed it was, and that's what I look for in 40k art.

And now for my big bugbear. The fluff. I like some of the philosophy on what it is to be a Chaos Space Marine and the dichotomy between them and Loyalists. I like the presentation of the path a Chaos Space Marine has before him: death, damnation, or Daemonhood. The Horus Heresy was the same old rehash- I'd like to see some spin from the Chaos side. The descriptions of the Gods were not as thought-provoking as in the last Codex, very one dimensional even for them. The Legions should be the focus- I think that the story of Constantinus was interesting and all but giving some Legions a blurb is insulting. Some of the new Warbands are similarly dire- Bleak Brotherhood? Please.

Also, view the descriptions of Chosen:


The most experienced and dedicated Chaos Space Marines are the Chosen, and other Chaos Space Marines see them as being particularly favored by the Ruinous Powers. Chosen are even more hard-bitten, callous and deadly than other Chaos Space Marines and think nothing of sacrificing the lives of their comrades to increase their own standing with the gods.

Squads of Chosen Chaos Space Marines have many decades, often centuries, of combat experience and have learnt how to make best the use of cover to survive the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. These highly experienced and ferocious warriors are typically in the vanguard of any attack, fighting from the front where they can earn the most glory and take the greatest spoils. Sometimes the Chosen will use their battle skills to infiltrate enemy lines and set up ambushes, or outflank an enemy army to launch surprise attacks on the opposition's strongpoints.

Ye Gods, it's like reading a battle report. So they're Vets with spikes. Who cares, I almost fell asleep.


The Chosen are the elite of a Chaos Space Marine army. Drawn from the most experienced and capable warriors of the Traitor Legions, they have literally thousands of years of experience. These men have ruled planets, led armies, and destroyed civilizations; they are the Chosen of the Chaos Gods and the bane of all that lives.

A little more evocative, no? Barring the gaffe of calling them the elite of a Chaos Space Marine army (in the Elites section? You don't say!), there's a little parallel with the new entry and then that last line. What a line it is.

Throw in a couple lines about destroying for the sake of destroying, rewarding evil deeds, and so on and you can see that the flat matte black evil of today's Chaos Space Marine is not nearly as cool as the Lovecraftian-horror-meets-Paradise-Lost-meets-insane-antihero/tragic hero-gone-horrifically-over-the-edge in the old days (i.e. less than a decade ago, which is really not that old at all).

EDIT: Haha totally forgot to plug the Chaos Space Marine thing I'm working on in my sig. Have at it, y'all. It's long though.

Lord Asgul
10-11-2010, 12:46
The thing is when they realised the new codex, they pissed a lot of people off. Not just the powergamers whose ridiciously over-pointed lord was no longer a viable option but the people who lovingly converted their lords, sorcerors, champions and their entire army to fit in with what they had spent points on. Like the death guard plague marine armies, world eaters armies, thousand sons armies, actually all the legions had specific things that made what you had created actually have legal rules. Like my Chaos Lord (at the time) had a power fist and a bolter because I had converted the model to be like that. I had even spent the better part of a day converting it to have Daemon Armour, Daemonic Aura, Daemonic Resilience and Daemonic Strength. Just before the latest codex came out I was planning on building an Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion army which had the whole siege engines and cultist troops thing going on but wait! New Codex arrives. Now I can't use this in game. I prefer to use the 3.5 codex over 4th edition any day because I feel it actually represents Chaos better than the current edition. I hope they go to that sort of feel to it.

Currently I feel that the current codex portrays Chaos Space Marines as the whole moustache twidling villians that always get foiled by the "good guys". I would portray them as the dark, cold-hearted, superhuman villians that they should be. They were Humanity's best to offer, now they are Humanity's greatest threat. Twisted by the dark powers, gifted with their power, they are evil incarnate. They would slaughter the entire population of a solar system just to gain a little more power. They not just raid a world, they would kill and enslave it's entire population and sacrifice them to leave terror in their wake. They are evil. But currently they are just pirates with evil tendencies.

Erwos
10-11-2010, 12:50
So yeah, I wouldn't claim that CSM are a new cost disadvantage compared to the new dark eldar codex.
Try comparing them to SMs, SWs, or BAs and get back to me. Seriously: if you tried to assemble a CSM squad that's roughly identical to any of those, you're running at 10-20% deficiency for the effective choices (eg, PF on a sarge).

Grimtuff
10-11-2010, 13:06
I certainly see no evidence whatsoever that balance has been improved upon in the 5th ed codecies. I have literally never seen a 5e Space Wolf army without Logan Grimnar, a bunch of Wolf Guard and Long Fangs. Yeah, Space Wolves have more options - great, I just love facing Lone Wolves and Thunderwolves with stormshields and thunderhammers.

So the 4 Rune Priest JOTWW spam list that EVERY SW player supposedly uses is a product of the Internet Hyperbole Machine? :eyebrows:

Weird.

slave
10-11-2010, 13:32
Chaos was just fine until 5th edition.

They where the best in the Black List and in Second Edition.

The Black List as well as Second had rules for cultists, demons, Marines, vehicles.

In Second we had al of that, plus pillaged Imperial stuff for 50% more than the base cost.

3rd just sucked, forget it.

4th was way better than the crap we are forced to use is 5th, but not nearly as good.

Chaos needs (IMO):

Put havok launchers back on dreadnaughts, where they originated.
Rhinos, Land Raiders, Predators.
Veteran Skills back on Chosen, 2 per squad
Put noise marine havoks back
Put sacred numbers back
Put cultists back
possessed
mutants
traitor gaurd
CULTISTS
demon engines, at least one per the 4 major
Abbadon a new model for chrissakes
marked demons with real rules again
greater demons with real rules again
maybe even one veteran skill per squad again
get rid of the stupid icon crap, just mark them

The rules are easy, just forget that boring crap codex from 5th edition ever existed.

Lord Inquisitor
10-11-2010, 16:10
So the 4 Rune Priest JOTWW spam list that EVERY SW player supposedly uses is a product of the Internet Hyperbole Machine? :eyebrows:

Weird.
Never seen it. 2-3 Rune Priests and Logan, yeah :rolleyes:.


Put havok launchers back on dreadnaughts, where they originated.
Well, the originated on titans, but yeah. Plus make Dreadnoughts either less random or more dangerous that the randomness is wort risking.

Veteran Skills back on Chosen, 2 per squad
Well, Chosen really should have access to some form of rule that befits them as veterans. I think Chosen and Terminators should have WS5 too.

Put noise marine havoks back
Yep. As I said, a simple system that you could for example give Noise Marines bikes for +X points (but become Fast Attack), up to 4 blastmasters (but become heavy support), Terminator armour for +Y points (but become elites) would work well.

Put sacred numbers back
Why? Much as I like a random reward for fielding my units 6-strong, it really is an artificial constraint isn't it?

Put cultists back
Yes.

possessed
Yes, just need a powerboost - they need to be significantly better than Bezerkers or noone will take them.

mutants
traitor gaurd
I would rather these were saved for a proper LatD codex. Which I doubt will happen, but we can dream. Certainly guard in the CSM codex isn't appropriate.

CULTISTS
YES

demon engines, at least one per the 4 major
Agreed, an important step towards making the CSM more than spikey marines.

marked demons with real rules again
greater demons with real rules again
Na. Summoned daemons work just fine, Codex Daemons should be the home of the "real" daemons. I hated summoned daemons when the book came out but I really see why it was done and they're fine. Maybe give them the option for a mark.

maybe even one veteran skill per squad again
get rid of the stupid icon crap, just mark them
Veteran skills for basic squads would be a bad idea (it was a train-wreck in 3.5) and the icons work fine, just don't lose the bonus if the icon bearer dies.

Draconis
10-11-2010, 16:38
I agree with most of this, though my biggest qualm is that everything Chaos has, Imperial has it, better and in most cases cheaper. I'd love a bigger fleshed out codex with more options. Say, the size of Codex: Space Marines. And face it, we lost marked and greater daemons because they wanted to sell the chaos daemons army. I'd rather have them back to one complete codex again.

AlphaLegionMarine
10-11-2010, 17:09
It certainly would be nice if Johnny Chaos Marine was smart enough to pick up the flag after Bobby Chaos Marine dropped it.

Mannimarco
10-11-2010, 17:27
Unlikely we will get daemons back again.

Id just be happy to get the ability to take a cult legion army again as its impossible to field anything like that in the current dex.

As has been said many times before icon does not = mark so unless I take one of the special character lords then I have no cult HQ. There are no cult elites in the book so I cannot have plague marines in terminator armour or chosen berserkers. The cult legions dont have terminator armour anymore? There are no cult fast attack choices nor are there any cult heavy support.

If sombody wants to play pure Death Guard (im sure theres more than a couple who do) then in order to remain true to that your army must contain Typhus and nothing but plague marines. Emperors Children: Lucius and nothing but noise marines. World Eaters: Kharn and nothing but berserkers. Thousand Sons: Ahriman and nothing but rubric marines.

The codex is also woefully inadequate at representing non cultist legions as well, heres a brief breakdown of the M.O of some.

Iron Warriors: unparalleled siege masters, heavy use of siege weapons. when they attack they build large supporting fortifications each capable of supporting the ones at either side of it. Attack with the ferocity of the World Eaters or Blood Angels when a breach is made but only for as long as necessary.
Ok so on the table I can take obliterators/vindicators (so can everybody else) and khorne berserkers to represent the breach assault. I cannot take any form of fortification, I cannot fortify a terrain piece. There is nothing unique to the Iron Warriors, they play exactly the same as..........

The Alpha Legion: cunning and devious, known to disguise themselves as loyalists to gain the element of surprise. widespread use of sleeper cells and cultists.
So how to I go about representing the Alpha Legion on the table: I take chosen as they can infiltrate (so can every chaos army, theres nothing unique to the Alpha Legion). I cannot take any form of cultist and there is no way I can increase my chances of getting the first strike to represent their element of surprise attacks.

The Word Bearers: Master orators and demagogues well versed in countering everything in the imperial dogma. large scale sacrifices, widespread use of daemons and daemonic pacts. cultists used as meatshields.
so how do I play as them: ok so you cant represent your dark apostle, you can take summoned daemons but cant represent your cultist meatshields so you have nothing that sets you apart from any other Chaos army apart from your cool paint scheme.

The Night Lords: Terror tactic specialists. Cold and ruthless. The long drawn out terrorising and slaughter of your opponent with a heavy reliance on psychological warfare.
How do I do that on the table? well theres nothing in the book that lets me force morale checks representing their terror attacks so I could just use codex: Blood Angels.

The Black Legion: The big bad, they can do a little bit of everything. So how do they fight? Theres a few ways, their tactic of sever the head and the body will die, often spearheaded by elite troops such as terminators. They also use a tactic of diversionary attacks all across the enemy lines with a decreasing time period in between each attack.
How do I do this on the table: A Chaos deathwing army would be perfect for this, shame you cant do it and there is nothing unique to the Black Legion that sets them apart from any other Chaos army.

Now compared to the newer loyalist books your basic Chaos force is becoming more expensive for an inferior troop. Your special characters (whilst more killy than their loyalist counterparts and even then this is debatable now) have no real synergy with the rest of the army. Why doesnt taking Abaddon unlock a deathwing type termy list? Why doesnt taking Typhus allow plague zombies? Why doesnt Kharn.......well actually he porbably doesnt have much synergy with the rest of the army anyway, just point him at what you want dead and send him off. There is justification for sombody such as Abaddon allowing terminators as troops to represent his "sever the head" tactic than there is allowing Vulkan to give his entire army magical flamers and melta weapons.

How to make a new Chaos dex work:

Pick your commander and give him one of the marks from page X, after you do this you can build your army from the list on page Y. Different mark on the lord unlocks a different list of options to build the army. Mark of Nurgle (plague marine at lord level) gives you a bunch of Nurgle rules to build into your army. Its not that hard to say "a plague marine squad may purchase terminator armour for X points and become an elites choice" You bought the MOK for your lord? turn the page and see the points costs for Khorne berserkers to purchase all this stuff.

Obviously needs fleshing out to incorporate the non cult legions but IMHO its still a hell of a lot better than "the legions only exist at troop level, there are no cult terminators, nor are there cult chosen and theres no such thing as a khorne berserker on a bike."

Shards of Basalt
10-11-2010, 17:31
I'd rather the Chaos armies of 40k and WFB be divided by Gods rather than by Mortal/Daemon.
I'm just not sure how feasible it is.

DuskRaider
10-11-2010, 17:34
Chaos really is showing it's age these days. The current codex was supposed to be the future of 40K codices going forward from that point, but once they received negative criticism, GW decided that instead of less being more, they'd go back to more being more. So codices like Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, and Dark Angels got the short end of the stick truthfully.
Here's the thing... we don't need a million options like we had in 3.5 edition. I myself am still a big fan of that codex, but I can understand where people could get lost in all of the various options, rules, and restrictions.
I want my Death Guard Legion army back. Yes, my warriors are 10,000 years old. No, there's not a damn thing that "Benny the Internet Troll" can say that will change that. Don't like it? Too bad. My army is led by a Deathshroud. Can I represent this powerful Lord with the current codex? I suppose, but not too well. Toughness 5, thanks. Where's the FNP? Blight Grenades? I'll take the Initiative whack, I don't care.
My army is based on a Plague Wing scheme, ie very Terminator heavy. My Terminators have to carry a stupid Icon to get their benefits. Terminators, those who are supposed to be the cream of the crop in their respective Legions. Where's THEIR FNP or Blight Grenades?
I'm not asking for much. I want a fluffy Death Guard HQ, and Typhus doesn't work since he's not even Death Guard anymore. Give me Blight Grenades, FNP army wide, make Nurgle's Rot an option that's NOT a psychic power, give me the option to give my troops 4+ Poison Plague Knives or 2+ Poison Power Swords. Give me options that the Daemons codex has. I don't even care about using Daemons. Give me Plague Zombies or the option to make a Sorcerer a Necromancer.
And since you're at it, why don't you give all of my fellow Chaos loving brethren their Legions back as well? Since we WANT to play Legions and WE say our warriors are 10,000 years old (much to the chargin of some trolls on here), then let's have our rules. Give my Khorne brethren their Legions, give my Undivided brethren their actual Legions in general.
If GW was smart, they'd be working on a new Chaos codex right now. They were what, the third most popular army behind Space Marines (all 1,000,000 codices they have now) and Orks. Now they're probably only slightly above Necron and / or Tau.

Erwos
10-11-2010, 17:56
I'd like to congratulate Mannimarco for getting to page 5 of this thread without mentioning Blight Drones once.

Anyways, Herald of Nurgle has a (somewhat unbalanced) fandex up on scribd that does a wonderful job of showing what a Legion-oriented codex might look like, and I heartily encourage GW to steal it whole.

Logan_uc
10-11-2010, 17:57
Which immediately begs the question - are these things necessary?

Do you NEED a "Word Bearers Chaos Lord" option that's just like a Chaos Lord only with a Cursed Crozius? Do we really need a "Thousand Sons Sorcerer Lord" as well as Arhiman, when Arhiman is an archetypal Thousand Sons Sorcerer Lord?

I'm fine with my only option for an Emperor's Children Lord being Lucius. It's necessary for limiting the options to a managable level to my mind.

Sure, I think we could do with a few more options, as the 'dex is a little barren. The option to give Cult troops options like Terminator armour or, where appropriate, bikes, extra heavy weapons, etc at the cost of moving to the appropriate FOC slot would be nice. A few extra wargear items for the characters - combat drugs for slaanesh, servo-arms for iron warriors, etc, available would be nice without needing to bring back the whole insanity of the 3.5 wargear list.

Is there the necessity of making a codex dedicated to a chapter just because there farts smell different? Is there a necessity to trample through established fluff so the new marine army can have a new shiny toy? Is it necessary to make obnoxious rules so that marine player can say they are the greatest?

The answer is NO, but GW is a company and wants to make money so they do it.

Now CSM players that in general don't give a damn about renegades or warbands and love there legions (with them you could even make warbands and and renegades), and only want to have some options, that are in the fluff to represent better there beloved legions, and some upgrades (daemon gifts to show the power of chaos and the motive for csm to worship chaos are out of order?

every one got new toy we lost them, other where made super and we are now the disney villains, this isn't good for sales to, you have to give at least a bit so they buy the product.

even codex 3.5 already took away from the uniqueness and depth of what the legions are, so you could get them in one codex (just read index astartes), we don't have some toy just because others have them, the truth is that most of us just want some scraps and you say we don't even have the right to that.

Mannimarco
10-11-2010, 18:03
@ERWOS:................er thank you?

I only really get into stuff like that when we get into (yet another) Chaos wishlist thread where people start screaming for more daemon engines and special characters like that stuff doesnt already exist.

Logan_uc
10-11-2010, 18:09
I think what people don't understand, is that there ARE no true Legions anymore. There are Chaos marines who have survived and become Lords or Princes and essentially lead warbands around with the armor and heraldry of their original Legion.

There are no 10,000 year old legion vets who are not Lords.
Sorry.

And you base this on what?

Considering your profile i assume its because only eldar are great, and they deserver it more cus they are great and should be even greater, and as I play eldar I now every thing... just kidding:D

Read storm of iron and the old codex and you find things pointing in the opposite direction, you are just assuming something that was never even hinted (to my knowledge).

Mannimarco
10-11-2010, 18:21
Yes the Legions do still exist, the Iron Warriors (whilst occasionally fighting amongst themselves) are still mostly unified.

Typhus plague fleet still has a sizeable part of the Death Guard legion. There are still a lot of Death Guard with Mortarion on his daemon world.

The Black Legion are still more or less unified under Abaddon

The Word Bearers are unified (both in the Maelstrom under Kor Phaeron and their little daemon world where the other half of the legion hang out)

Even the fractured World Eaters still managed to bring together 50k marines for the Reign of Blood

Erwos
10-11-2010, 19:05
Yes the Legions do still exist, the Iron Warriors (whilst occasionally fighting amongst themselves) are still mostly unified.

Typhus plague fleet still has a sizeable part of the Death Guard legion. There are still a lot of Death Guard with Mortarion on his daemon world.

The Black Legion are still more or less unified under Abaddon

The Word Bearers are unified (both in the Maelstrom under Kor Phaeron and their little daemon world where the other half of the legion hang out)

Even the fractured World Eaters still managed to bring together 50k marines for the Reign of Blood
THANK YOU. This whole "no more Legions" thing is based on a misunderstanding of what happened in the fluff.

Just as importantly, people need to remember that a fair few of the splinter groups are essentially what loyalists would call chapters. It's not like a bunch of Night Lords who decide to do their own thing forget how to be Night Lords.

Logan_uc
10-11-2010, 20:20
Just as importantly, people need to remember that a fair few of the splinter groups are essentially what loyalists would call chapters. It's not like a bunch of Night Lords who decide to do their own thing forget how to be Night Lords.

This is clearly stated on Imperial armour in siege of varks, almost every warband was a sub group from the legions.

Starchild
10-11-2010, 20:48
As for your question about how they maintain their numbers. Well I guess GW failed with the last CSM codex to inform you that not all CSM are from the original Traitor legions. And there's also that new FW book something about a war in the Badaab system?Sorry to pull up a post from the first page, and my apologies if this has already been addressed.

Realm of Chaos says the Traitor Legions have their own initiation rites, using geneseed in a way similar to the Loyalist Chapters.

Spyral
10-11-2010, 20:57
TBH you're better off for the most part using vanilla marine codex instead of the ChSM one. More options!

Although ideas akin to above would be good :

Chapter Tactics -

Iron Warriors -
Can spend an eilte slot on Oblitorators
Have some sort of 'master of the forge' type that can fortify buildings. Limited demons, cultits

Alpha Legion - no demons but allowed to have infiltrating cultists and sieze initiative on 5+

Word Bearers - a 'Dark Apothicary (like a chaplian) giving re-roll to hit, fearless etc, limited mark-troops

Night Lords - Can take Raptors as troops (or scoring units), night vision, no cultists

Black Legion - 'standard'

Also legion based armies too.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
10-11-2010, 22:02
Now that I think about it, why don't the chaos legions have chaos Techmarines? Chaos Master of the Forge? That would be one way to satisfy Iron Warrior players like myself. I actually don't care about servo arms on all my aspiring champions or heavy support units moving around the FOC chart. I actually think that was a way to give flavour when they wrote the Index Astartes books. I am sure Phil Kelly or Robin Cruddace (both writers I like,) or whoever gets the job, could construct the codex to give all the armies a unique legion flavour that would not necessarily be the same as the Index Astartes books.

On another note.

I like the idea of Cultists but I'd rather have Chaos Guard. But and its a big but if they were included in the codex then they would make the list so that your army would only be at its most effective and flexible if you used them. So if you didn't want to use cultists you'd find your army wouldn't quite synergise as well as when you did.

Squads of Neophytes like the Blood Claws is something that is also missing as far as the fluff goes. They use gene-seed so what? They arrive fully battle experienced? I don't want scouts but some sort of new recruit is needed. I guess that's just me wish-listing though.

Logan_uc
10-11-2010, 22:17
I like the idea of Cultists but I'd rather have Chaos Guard. But and its a big but if they were included in the codex then they would make the list so that your army would only be at its most effective and flexible if you used them. So if you didn't want to use cultists you'd find your army wouldn't quite synergise as well as when you did.

Squads of Neophytes like the Blood Claws is something that is also missing as far as the fluff goes. They use gene-seed so what? They arrive fully battle experienced? I don't want scouts but some sort of new recruit is needed. I guess that's just me wish-listing though.

as for the part of cultists, traitor guard and mutants, I agree, we need to get as far as possible from SM and have a more unique army.

as for neophytes, donīt even touch that, csm make marines and put them in power armour, as for combat experience think like this:look at what SM recruits pass, csm are even worst and don't tolerate any weakness, further more they will probably recruit from daemon worlds, those guy have seen things that would make a SM crap in their pants and survived to tell the story.

oh and remember the words of fabius bile if 1 in 1000 survives we aren't doing things right.

DuskRaider
10-11-2010, 22:18
Technically, most Legions DO have Techmarines... and Apothecarions... etc. etc.

Lord Inquisitor
10-11-2010, 22:39
even codex 3.5 already took away from the uniqueness and depth of what the legions are, so you could get them in one codex (just read index astartes), we don't have some toy just because others have them, the truth is that most of us just want some scraps and you say we don't even have the right to that.

I'm saying the current codex is a well designed list. I don't want a nerfed chaos list nor do I think that it couldn't be improved upon. I expect any new 'dex to be in line with the current codecies. But people saying that the current list is badly designed or poorly balanced - well, I don't agree.

I wish that all codecies were like the Daemon, CSM, Eldar and Ork books.

DeeKay
10-11-2010, 23:29
Rules-wise, its more a case of Codex:CSM showing its age and the apparent flaws have already been discussed to death. People have had plenty of time to find the so-called optimal builds and people have had plenty of time to counter said lists. When (if?) a new Chaos Codex comes out, I'm sure you will find that there are some brand new unit choices, or that Chaos Bikers can upgrade their bikes for daemonic steeds (I love this idea personally) or whatever. It will simply be a case of wiating for your turn as the bet army and let's face it, during 3.5 were they not one of the most complained about 40k army books?

Fluff is my greaest bugbear since Chaos had some really awesome fluff from 1st and 2nd Ed. 3rd Ed was as a pamphlet designed to play the game, but they all were back then. 3.5 explored the Legions in detail and built up on the idea of the gods being essentially self-sustained manifestations of extreme emotion. Now GW has gone down the path of some sort of pseudo-Greek pantheon type of structure for the Chaos Gods, which I find disappointing since they already had their idea of what the Chaos Gods were. I rarely say this but I think there needs to be a retcon with regards to this.

With regards,
Dan.

Lord Asgul
11-11-2010, 00:34
Fluff-wise and rules-wise the current codex centres on RENEGADES. GW said they wanted more renegade armies. All they had to do was to put some good short stories into the book to inspire the people to create their own renegade warbands. Not wipe the slate clean of all personalisation. We don't have any wargear compared to, say, Codex: Space Marines. If we go by the fluff, Chaos Warlords and Champions have lots of trinkets, gadgets and wargear because they have customised, upgraded, scavenged, found, lost, found again, killed for, been gifted half a metric ton of it. We now get generic daemons (outside of apocalypse) and, for some unknown reason, pictures of weapons we can't use (hand-held plasma cannons and meltagun on the armoury pages WTF). The fourth edition codex is badly thought out in my opinion.

I feel like I should declare a black crusade against Thorpe and Cavatore

Mannimarco
11-11-2010, 00:56
In Gavs defence he did admit the Chaos dex took streamlining to far.

Not that it does us much good but at least the mistake has been acknowledged and (hopefully) wont happen again although I fear by the time the new Chaos dex come around it will be right about the time for a new edition and a new design philosophy. We can only hope everybody has to use the new design philosophy and we arnt just used as a guinea pig then they go the opposite direction for everybody else.

DuskRaider
11-11-2010, 03:08
The sad truth of the matter is, I don't think we'll be seeing a new Chaos Codex for a while. Worst part is, when 3rd Edition was blasted for being a piece of crap, GW scrambled and put out 3.5 Edition to appease the fans. Now they went and more or less copied 3.0 with the 4th Edition, yet again it's being slammed for being such a piece of crap, yet GW won't make good with it.

Sparowl
11-11-2010, 04:05
Not that it does us much good but at least the mistake has been acknowledged and (hopefully) wont happen again although I fear by the time the new Chaos dex come around it will be right about the time for a new edition and a new design philosophy. We can only hope everybody has to use the new design philosophy and we arnt just used as a guinea pig then they go the opposite direction for everybody else.

By the time a new chaos dex comes around, GW will have an entire new group of designers, none who have been around long enough to understand how to write balanced codecies. Just hope Mr. Ward doesn't write it, otherwise Ahriman will be learning from Tigerius, and Abaddon will really just be trying to prove himself to Marneus (who punched a Bloodthirster this time), so that he is able to join the Ultramarines.

In my opinion, the current dex doesn't do the founding legions justice. Of course, neither does the current "Codex: Ultramarines!", but let's move past that for now. The Chaos Marines Codex needs to be about the 9 legions who broke apart and are as iconic in their style as the 9 loyalist chapters were supposed to be.

However, in all fairness, no codex has done them justice in that regard. The previous codex had several pages each devoted to the World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children and Death Guard, but only one page for legions like the Night Lords, Word Bearers, etc.

So who decides which legions get the first rate treatment, and which ones get pushed aside? Frankly, I think the Word Bearers and Night Lords are more interesting then the World Eaters. "Burn! Maim! Kill!" only has so much fluff potential, after all.

On the other hand, a codex with all 9 legions getting attention, while cool, would be too big and probably wouldn't get published. GW certainly isn't going to put that much time on anything that isn't their star seller, the blue/red/grey boys.

Lord Inquisitor
11-11-2010, 04:12
In Gavs defence he did admit the Chaos dex took streamlining to far.

And that's all it was. A little too much streamlining.

If the codex had:

- Chaos Cultists
- Options for the Cult troops to be upgrade to terminators, etc.
- Cult upgrades for Lords, Sorcerers and Daemon Princes
- A piece of wargear appropriate for each legion (e.g. servo-arm, combat drugs, cursed crozius, etc) available to HQ units

... would there have been such a general bad feeling? But this is just a small number of options!

These few simple additions along with some points tweaks is all the codex really needs.

Charistoph
11-11-2010, 04:21
I wish that all codecies were like the Daemon, CSM, Eldar and Ork books.

You do realize that the Ork codex was the first codex built with the current paradigm? That's why it still does so well.

Eldar still do rather well due to the fact that the design paradigm that ripped the current Chaos Marines codex to shreds first set its sites on them, then it picked up speed with the Dark Angels, hitting its culmination with the current Chaos Marines Dex. Daemons are excusable as they are so brand-spanking-fresh-new and more a conversion of the Fantasy book than containing any real design process (much like what 40K started out being in the first place). The reaction to CSM was so nasty and intense, that they back-pedaled in time to work Orks into its current iteration.

As for the Cultists/Guard debate, it wouldn't take much to make them either/or. The only real difference would generally be how big the units are and how they are constructed, are they just one huge squad, or multiple small squads, etc. Base equipment would be the same, even most of their weapon upgrades would pretty much match. I don't think we'll be seeing Chaos Storm Troopers, or Plague Russes, as those are best left for the LatD.

Born Again
11-11-2010, 04:31
It certainly would be nice if Johnny Chaos Marine was smart enough to pick up the flag after Bobby Chaos Marine dropped it.

Then doesn't the same go for special and heavy weapons within squads? "Oh, Bob dropped the missile launcher, but I'm quite happy with my bolter, thanks".

Lord Inquisitor
11-11-2010, 04:34
You do realize that the Ork codex was the first codex built with the current paradigm? That's why it still does so well.
Disagree. It is cleanly designed. Most unique units are resolved using Universal Special Rules rather than unique rules, while there's plenty of fun wacky stuff it doesn't take over the game. Most weapons and wargear are delineated by a unique profile without special rules. Sure, there's a trend towards 5th ed proliferation of special characters with unique rules, but it's firmly in the 4th ed camp.


As for the Cultists/Guard debate, it wouldn't take much to make them either/or. The only real difference would generally be how big the units are and how they are constructed, are they just one huge squad, or multiple small squads, etc. Base equipment would be the same, even most of their weapon upgrades would pretty much match. I don't think we'll be seeing Chaos Storm Troopers, or Plague Russes, as those are best left for the LatD.
Well, a cultist unit with access to some guard hardware would be fine in my book, but anything more than a "generic cultist/guard squad" unit would be too much in a CSM book.

destroyerlord
11-11-2010, 07:02
And that's all it was. A little too much streamlining.

If the codex had:

- Chaos Cultists
- Options for the Cult troops to be upgrade to terminators, etc.
- Cult upgrades for Lords, Sorcerers and Daemon Princes
- A piece of wargear appropriate for each legion (e.g. servo-arm, combat drugs, cursed crozius, etc) available to HQ units

... would there have been such a general bad feeling? But this is just a small number of options!

These few simple additions along with some points tweaks is all the codex really needs.

I mostly agree with this sentiment, although it still leaves a little to be desired. New chaotic fast attack options, such as FWs hellblade/blight drones, and giving daemons the same icon options as chaos marines would help to give the army less of the 'bland' feel it has now. These few changes, along with what you wrote above, would make the army list much more fun to build an army with and play games.

The other problem is with the fluff. While it may be true to some extent that parts of the Legions have broken up into warbands, it is also true that Legion Marines have strong feelings of pride in their Primarchs, and deep seated loathing for those marines that are renegades, or who were raised from stolen geneseed (See Storm of Iron). They don't just go around hiring out their services to Johnny Pirate, like some are saying here. Honestly I think the piracy role that came about from Huron's inclusion in the latest codex was overplayed, and should really be limited to him and his friends in the maelstrom.

For those who like to take the fluff in the newest codex as an 'expansion' of what came before, sure, that does make sense. However, for anyone who is new to the hobby/never read anything about that particular army before, all they have to go by is the current 'dex. Since that is the case, the codex fluff ought to represent the overall feelings and views of that particular faction. When it comes to Chaos Marines, that means the Legions. These guys are the big players here, with the most experience, the most equipment, and the most friends.

In conclusion, I don't believe that the chaos range needs a complete overhaul in the same way as the Dark Eldar, although any future iterations of the boxed sets should at least include some options for older marks of power armour. The fluff is generally good, especially if you read older books such as the realms of chaos volumes, but in the newest 'dex they just sort of threw it away and come up with something new, that most people seemingly didn't like as much. The army list is ok, but what should by all rights be the most varied, customisable list in the game has ended up the most restrictive and least variable list available.

Draconis
11-11-2010, 08:12
To be honest, I'd absolutely love if they did each legion seperate like they do loyalist marines. Maybe have a codex for Undivided legions, then do one for Marked Legions. Make them like a fair sized Compendium of Chaos. If you can write a whole book about Space Wolves, why not do one of Night Lords?

Born Again
11-11-2010, 08:15
The other problem is with the fluff. While it may be true to some extent that parts of the Legions have broken up into warbands, it is also true that Legion Marines have strong feelings of pride in their Primarchs, and deep seated loathing for those marines that are renegades, or who were raised from stolen geneseed (See Storm of Iron). They don't just go around hiring out their services to Johnny Pirate, like some are saying here. Honestly I think the piracy role that came about from Huron's inclusion in the latest codex was overplayed, and should really be limited to him and his friends in the maelstrom.

For those who like to take the fluff in the newest codex as an 'expansion' of what came before, sure, that does make sense. However, for anyone who is new to the hobby/never read anything about that particular army before, all they have to go by is the current 'dex. Since that is the case, the codex fluff ought to represent the overall feelings and views of that particular faction. When it comes to Chaos Marines, that means the Legions. These guys are the big players here, with the most experience, the most equipment, and the most friends.


You know, I'm going to go ahead and agree with you there. I don't want people seeing my avatar/ sig and thinking I'm just all about the Red Corsairs and Legions be damned. That's not it at all.

I was thinking about this last night. In a new book, how would they present the fluff? I think they need to spend some time concentrating not on the Legions or Renegades, but on the psyche of a CSM...

Think about it. I don't care what anyone says, to assume every single marine in a Chaos force is a 10,000 year old vet is lunacy. Any marine who fought in the Heresy is either a daemon prince, Lord (or at least powerful Chosen/ Terminator), or reduced to Spawn. If not, they must have been stuck in a time pocket so slow that, to them, the Heresy was only a few years ago and they wouldn't be that much more experienced.

Anyway, the point is this: you mention the Traitor Legion's contempt for marines born from stolen or mixed geneseed, but how does this affect the marines view of the Imperium? To those who witnessed the Heresy, they would be very bitter, aching for revenge for perceived wrongs against them. For those that are cloned bodies/ recruited from slave stock or whatever, things would be different. They have no memory of the Heresy, the Imperium is just the "bad guy". For a real world example, think of something like the Israelis and Palestinians. Generations past, they hated each other for a reason. Years later, their grandkids often hate each other just because they've been raised that way.

So I'd like that explored... in some ways newer recruits (I'm talking about within the legions here, not renegades) would be manufactured hate-machines serving the bitter revenge of the older Heresy vets.

We also don't need masses of info on the Horus Heresy... most people know the deal, there's a whole series of novels on it... they could just give the basic lowdown and spend more time exploring the long war, the CSM's viewpoints and psychology, their organisation and the Legions themselves: their methods of war and recruitment, individual outlook, and different factions within (ie; the Word Bearers within the Maelstrom).

Then have a page describing the Badab War, with Huron as a Special Character, and even as a Red Corsairs player that's all the info I need as far as that's concerned, thanks. Finish the whole fluff section up with a little bit on other post-Heresy renegades, just so there's some fluff in the book for people wanting to invent their own colour schemes, and I'd be a very happy man with that.

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-11-2010, 08:50
in some ways newer recruits (I'm talking about within the legions here, not renegades) would be manufactured hate-machines serving the bitter revenge of the older Heresy vets.

So you're saying that new, fresh-faced, heavily indoctrinated generations should be manipulated and sacrificed in body and soul by the older, jaded generations in order to achieve the latter's bitter and selfish agendas.

Perhaps the agendas of the older generations and their effects on the playing field as a whole little resemble the dreams they had as callow youths and indeed are twisted lies purporting to be what they never will be.

Or maybe I'm reading too much social commentary in it... ;)

Born Again
11-11-2010, 10:49
So you're saying that new, fresh-faced, heavily indoctrinated generations should be manipulated and sacrificed in body and soul by the older, jaded generations in order to achieve the latter's bitter and selfish agendas.

Perhaps the agendas of the older generations and their effects on the playing field as a whole little resemble the dreams they had as callow youths and indeed are twisted lies purporting to be what they never will be.

Or maybe I'm reading too much social commentary in it... ;)

Well... yes, I guess so. But not so sure we're both still talking about Chaos Marines here :shifty: :p

Bunnahabhain
11-11-2010, 11:26
To be honest, I'd absolutely love if they did each legion seperate like they do loyalist marines. Maybe have a codex for Undivided legions, then do one for Marked Legions. Make them like a fair sized Compendium of Chaos. If you can write a whole book about Space Wolves, why not do one of Night Lords?

As we could quite do without 9 CSM books, and 1000 Loyalist ones. If people want nothing but marines vs other flavour of the marines all the time, fair enough, but don't call it 40K. It is a widely held opinion that there are too many marine books already...

There is no reason a decent chaos book can't cover every chaos marine based army, including those with some cultist and daemonic elements, perfectly well.

Perfect Organism
11-11-2010, 13:18
Well, a cultist unit with access to some guard hardware would be fine in my book, but anything more than a "generic cultist/guard squad" unit would be too much in a CSM book.
That's assuming that the next chaos codex is going to be Codex: Chaos Space Marines rather than Codex: Chaos or [i]Codex: [insert specific chaos faction here].

To be honest, I'd absolutely love if they did each legion seperate like they do loyalist marines. Maybe have a codex for Undivided legions, then do one for Marked Legions. Make them like a fair sized Compendium of Chaos. If you can write a whole book about Space Wolves, why not do one of Night Lords?
I'd rather they split them according to the chaos powers and included stuff other than marines. Then you would only need five books (including a generic mixed/undivided one) and would be able to do a lot of chaos forces which aren't based around the original traitor legions, like the Blood Pact.

I really think that Forge World had the right idea with it's chaos lists and my great hope is that they were something of a testbed for some ideas GW wanted to experiment with.

DuskRaider
11-11-2010, 13:48
...I don't care what anyone says, to assume every single marine in a Chaos force is a 10,000 year old vet is lunacy. Any marine who fought in the Heresy is either a daemon prince, Lord (or at least powerful Chosen/ Terminator), or reduced to Spawn....

Why don't you try picking up a book? Such as, I don't know, "Soul Hunter", "Lord of the Night", the entire Dark Apostle series, or "Storm of Iron". The majority of those who align with the Legions are in fact the very same who crusaded for the Emperor and fought in the Horus Heresy. I would also say that most Heresy Vets in the Legions, whilst feeling that they've been in the warp for a few centuries, would still have more experience than their Loyalist counterparts. For one, they participated in the Great Crusade, were mentored by their Primarch, and when it came to the Heresy, fought against LEGIONS. Not a Chapter or a 'Guard regiment, but entire Legions. Not only this, but they also battled Primarchs. And half of the Imperium. Oh, and assaulted Terra. And they survived.

AlexHolker
11-11-2010, 15:53
If the codex had:

- Chaos Cultists
- Options for the Cult troops to be upgrade to terminators, etc.
- Cult upgrades for Lords, Sorcerers and Daemon Princes
- A piece of wargear appropriate for each legion (e.g. servo-arm, combat drugs, cursed crozius, etc) available to HQ units

... would there have been such a general bad feeling? But this is just a small number of options!
Yes. Even if you're one of those people that like the modern, armoury-less codexes, daemons have still been reduced to a shadow of their former selves, and Daemon Princes are still WHFB rejects instead of being the ascended Space Marines they are supposed to be. At the least, you'd need to give the daemons their identity back and give the Daemon Prince the ability to wield guns and other weapons.

Draconis
11-11-2010, 16:12
As we could quite do without 9 CSM books, and 1000 Loyalist ones. If people want nothing but marines vs other flavour of the marines all the time, fair enough, but don't call it 40K. It is a widely held opinion that there are too many marine books already...

There is no reason a decent chaos book can't cover every chaos marine based army, including those with some cultist and daemonic elements, perfectly well.

While I totally agree with you, and I think there should be a Loyalist compendium, all 300 pages of it : ) and there should be a Traitor compendium as well, we both know they won't reduce the number of Space Marines books, so I was opting instead for balance and fairness, which in this case is equal dedication to each army. Just because player a: plays chaos doesn't mean he loves his army, puts as much dedication into it as player b who plays Blood angels any less. Each army should be treated equal and so should their codex.

Logan_uc
11-11-2010, 16:19
I'm saying the current codex is a well designed list. I don't want a nerfed chaos list nor do I think that it couldn't be improved upon. I expect any new 'dex to be in line with the current codecies. But people saying that the current list is badly designed or poorly balanced - well, I don't agree.

I wish that all codecies were like the Daemon, CSM, Eldar and Ork books.

I agree with the part that all codex should be like the codex orks, for the other only eldar have a decent codex (fluff/game representation) although they also have problems with internal balance, daemons are a different thing they where never taken seriously, they lack consistency, and the tea party with the gods was never well received, for csm we already discussed it.

We have to agree to disagree it seems, I really like more codex that is rich in options even if it is very complex, you seem to like simplicity, and its a good thing because we are probably both wrong and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Jofus
11-11-2010, 16:35
I hope that when CSM gets updated that it is similar to the 3.5 codex. As far as new models my list would be: plastic power armor lord, plastic chosen, all cult troops done in new plastics (beserkers included), legion upgrade sprues like the loyalist are getting, plastic dread.

Col. Tartleton
11-11-2010, 17:53
I'd like to see new CSM being done as the next generation of Marines (model wise). Bigger (If not "True Scale" a bit more in that direction), more detailed, perhaps with revised design. Look what they've done with Blood Angels. The Space Hulk Terminators and Death Company are some of the best models ever produced by GW (Sanguinary Guard would join them but they're a bit wonky looking). I'd be happy with five piece marines and terminators. Arm and gun, Arm, Body and legs, backpack head. The current models are so naked and bland. They don't look like the art which is all Gothic with all the parchments and chains and relics. I don't know why they're a million parts if they're not dynamic anyway. Look at tactical or CSM models. They're all one pose. They may as well be one piece. At least they would look better. Realistically they waste a ton of space on the sprues by having separate shoulders and arms when the shoulder only fits on one way. You don't need two arms, two shoulders, a head, two torsos, backpack, legs, gun, accessories. That's a just ten part model which assembles in one pose... The Space Hulk models are like one piece and are way more dynamic.

Lord Inquisitor
11-11-2010, 18:26
So you're saying that new, fresh-faced, heavily indoctrinated generations should be manipulated and sacrificed in body and soul by the older, jaded generations in order to achieve the latter's bitter and selfish agendas.
This is good! And some background sources (e.g. Black Sky Dead Sun) do seem to portray the Chaos Marines something like this but it could certainly be emphasised more.

"Storm of Iron". The majority of those who align with the Legions are in fact the very same who crusaded for the Emperor and fought in the Horus Heresy.
Wait, wait, wait... Storm of Iron where the main character is a half-breed newcomer? Where the entire point of the battle is the resources to build new Space Marines? Furthermore in Dead Sky Black Sun, new Chaos Marines are made at a ferocious rate by the daemonculaba to fuel the hideous casualties suffered in battle. The command echelons and maybe elite corps are maybe Heresy-era veterans but I would expect very little of the actual Legions. In 40K terms, HQs and elites - chosen, terminators - but that's about it.

It also serves to illustrate another point - the legions aren't unified. Dead Sky Black Sun shows no less than three Iron Warrior factions at war with one-another.


Yes. Even if you're one of those people that like the modern, armoury-less codexes, daemons have still been reduced to a shadow of their former selves, and Daemon Princes are still WHFB rejects instead of being the ascended Space Marines they are supposed to be. At the least, you'd need to give the daemons their identity back and give the Daemon Prince the ability to wield guns and other weapons.
I thought the daemon change sucked when the codex came out - I was actually one of the most vocal critics - and given that I play pure Emperor's Children I miss having actual Daemonettes and Keepers in my army. But you know what? It really doesn't matter. Daemons are ancillary to the army, a chaff unit to throw at the enemy. I don't think we need 9 units when 2 will do the job, particularly when those units are not actually in any way a core component of the army. Indeed, I think that not giving them any differentiation suggests to me that these are warp-filth that the CSM just summon and throw at the enemy rather than individualistic beings that a deal need be brokered with like the "proper" daemons.

I'd much rather if we're going to add 7 units to the army list, we saw daemon engines, siege engines, cultist or mutant rabble, dark mechanicus or insane CSM apothecary surgeons, bioengineered abominations, aircraft or new and peverse Chaos Space Marine units than just divide the daemons back into flavours.


We have to agree to disagree it seems, I really like more codex that is rich in options even if it is very complex, you seem to like simplicity, and its a good thing because we are probably both wrong and the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Simplicity is a good thing for game balance and good, tactical play. Special rules and multiple options add "flavour". Obviously there is a medium between the two - but if flavour can be achieved with minimum complexity, then that is the best game design. People may prefer more options and "fun" special rules to good game design and that's fine - it's a preference and neither is necessarily better than the other. Unless we're talking about game design and balance, in which case less options is necessarily easier to balance.

Chaos Daemons is a great example. Now, internally balanced it is not, because in terms of models, it's a Fantasy army in space. But given that set of models the codex is superb. Simple army-wide rules - but make the army very unique. The units are oozing character - daemonettes are very different from plaguebearers from bloodletters, etc... but done with very few unique rules at all. Their statlines and gifts based on USRs differentiate them well. The proof in the pudding? The book was balanced even when it came out - people have won some big tournies with them, but they're certainly not overpowered. The FAQ is what, less than a page? It's a terrifically designed book. And actually, I loved the background in that book. It took the stupid "chaos god tea party" idea and made it really cool. Jeremy Vetock should be forced to write the Chaos Daemon codex out ten times before he writes another codex.

Where Codex Chaos could be improved upon would be to reintroduce the "flavour" lacking - cult terminators, options for daemon princes and lords including some legion specific pieces, cultists, etc - without drowning it in heaps of IG or tyranid levels of pointless options, unnecessary special rules.

DuskRaider
11-11-2010, 18:39
I'd like to see new CSM being done as the next generation of Marines (model wise). Bigger (If not "True Scale" a bit more in that direction), more detailed, perhaps with revised design. Look what they've done with Blood Angels. The Space Hulk Terminators and Death Company are some of the best models ever produced by GW (Sanguinary Guard would join them but they're a bit wonky looking). I'd be happy with five piece marines and terminators. Arm and gun, Arm, Body and legs, backpack head. The current models are so naked and bland. They don't look like the art which is all Gothic with all the parchments and chains and relics. I don't know why they're a million parts if they're not dynamic anyway. Look at tactical or CSM models. They're all one pose. They may as well be one piece. At least they would look better. Realistically they waste a ton of space on the sprues by having separate shoulders and arms when the shoulder only fits on one way. You don't need two arms, two shoulders, a head, two torsos, backpack, legs, gun, accessories. That's a just ten part model which assembles in one pose... The Space Hulk models are like one piece and are way more dynamic.

I'd hate to say it, but I have a feeling that the really detailed kits for Chaos are only going to come out of Forge World, which I'm fine with! I have an entire FW Death Guard army totaling almost 10,000 points. The World Eater kits are top notch, and I'm positive once FW releases the Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children kits they'll be just as exquisite.

At this point I'm thinking that perhaps GW should take the leash off of Forge World and give them the green light to produce Legions codices, as GW doesn't seem to have the time, energy, resources, or motivation to give Legions the attention they need and deserve. Let FW make actual rules, give us our Daemon Engines, special characters, Pre-Heresy Pattern vehicles, and the beautiful models they've always done.


Wait, wait, wait... Storm of Iron where the main character is a half-breed newcomer? Where the entire point of the battle is the resources to build new Space Marines? Furthermore in Dead Sky Black Sun, new Chaos Marines are made at a ferocious rate by the daemonculaba to fuel the hideous casualties suffered in battle. The command echelons and maybe elite corps are maybe Heresy-era veterans but I would expect very little of the actual Legions. In 40K terms, HQs and elites - chosen, terminators - but that's about it.

It also serves to illustrate another point - the legions aren't unified. Dead Sky Black Sun shows no less than three Iron Warrior factions at war with one-another.

Perhaps the Storm of Iron example wasn't the best example, but if you remember, even squad commanders were HH veterans. I also don't doubt that some Legions do, in fact, have fratricidal wars to determine who should command a company or whatnot. Death Guard is split in half with those who side with Mortarion and those who align with Typhus, we all know Magnus has an immense hatred for Ahriman, Night Lords warbands settle their differences with bolter and chainswords, and don't even start me on Black Legion...

Also, I believe "newcomer" is a relative term when describing Honsou. I don't exactly remember how long he'd been an Iron Warrior, but I believe he was indoctrinated was during The Scouring.

But we all know that if a Legion is in danger, each warband or company will put aside their differences and fight for the good of their Legion and gene father (perhaps with the exception of Typhus, but he's a ****** anyhow).

Dingull
11-11-2010, 19:19
I think it worth mentioning that the Legions were many times the size of the SM chapters, so even splintered a faction or warband of a legion can be the size of a loyalist chapter.

Badger[Fr]
11-11-2010, 20:34
Compared with what? Seems to me that compared with Imperial Guard or Tyranids the internal balance is not bad (Plague Marines and Lash are a bit good, spawn, lords and possessed poor) but most units in the army are usable.
Some units may look usable when taken in a vacuum, but the army as a whole has so many flaws it's not even funny. Where do I even begin?

The most obvious flaw is probably the lack of reliable, efficient ranged anti-vehicle weapons. Chaos has almost no choice but to rush the opponent and pray that his Meltagun-toting units reach their target unharmed. Not that you could sacrifice them anyway, given how expensive all Chaos choices are. As a consequence, most players have no choice but to spam Obliterators and shoehorn them in an anti-vehicle role they were not designed for in the first place.

Chaos also has plenty of CC-dedicated units, but not a single reliable delivery system. Rhinos do not suit CC units, and Chaos Land Raider are so bad it's not even funny. Not that it matters, because Chaos cannot do armour saturation properly anyway, so your Rhinos are likely to be dead on turn one.

Did I also mention the worthlessness of the entire Fast Attack slot? Or the outrageous point cost of many units? CSM have a single competitive build, and it's not even that good to begin with. This is as bad as internal balance can get. Even the Eldar, Daemons and Ork books are better, and these do not qualify as good in the first place.

Meanwhile, Space Marines, Dark Eldar or the Imperial Guard have tens of fluffy, fun, and competitive builds available. I'd rather have any 5th Edition Codex (even the Tyranid one) than the joke most 4th Edition books were. Sorry if I'm pragmatic and favour actual variety and balance over streamlining.


I certainly see no evidence whatsoever that balance has been improved upon in the 5th ed codecies. I have literally never seen a 5e Space Wolf army without Logan Grimnar, a bunch of Wolf Guard and Long Fangs. Yeah, Space Wolves have more options - great, I just love facing Lone Wolves and Thunderwolves with stormshields and thunderhammers.
Yeah, it's not like Space Wolves have many other viable and equally good units - be it Runepriests, Iron Priests, Grey Hunters, Wolf Scouts, Fenrisian Wolves, as well as many Special Characters and the usual Space Marines vehicles. The only poor units in the SW book tend to be the WS3 / BS3 ones.


Funny how "more options" results in less variability as one of those options ends up being optimal. What I don't see is Space Wolf armies with Grey Hunters and Blood Claws (not a single Blood Claw!). Yet I see Plague Marines, Bezerkers, Noise Marines, Lesser Daemons - even Thousand Sons on the tables as well as basic CSM on occasion. Most of the Chaos FOC gets used - Fast Attack is the only area they're truly weak on.
Noise Marines? Berzerkers? Vanilla CSM? I mean, really? Vanilla CSM and Noise Marines may be decent but are so overpriced it hurts, and Berzerkers pretend to be actual melee specialists when they are no match for Assault Terminators, Nobs, Incubis, or any actual CC unit.

Charistoph
11-11-2010, 21:44
Disagree. It is cleanly designed. Most unique units are resolved using Universal Special Rules rather than unique rules, while there's plenty of fun wacky stuff it doesn't take over the game. Most weapons and wargear are delineated by a unique profile without special rules. Sure, there's a trend towards 5th ed proliferation of special characters with unique rules, but it's firmly in the 4th ed camp.


If the Orks saw the same design paradigm (paradigm/concept, not layout) that hit Chaos Marines, then there would only be Warbosses and Wierd Boys in HQ, Elites would only have Nobs, Kommandos, and Flash Gits/Lootas/Tank Huntas (all in one), Troops would be only Boyz and Grots with no FOC shifting, Fast Attack would be War Truks, Storm Boyz, and Bikers, and Heavy Support would be the walkers, Looted Wagon, and Artillery Grots.

What they got was hardly the treatment the Spikey Boyz got, but the first broad steps in what became in the Spaz Marine codecies and Guard.

Ammendment: The layout and large use of USRs is hardly a definition of 4th Edition Codecies, if anything, it is a definition of 5th Edition concepts first tested with the Eldar and Dark Angels. Imperial Guard 5th is where we start seeing Unique Rules on almost every unit.

Grand Master Raziel
11-11-2010, 22:22
I hope that when CSM gets updated that it is similar to the 3.5 codex. As far as new models my list would be: plastic power armor lord, plastic chosen, all cult troops done in new plastics (beserkers included), legion upgrade sprues like the loyalist are getting, plastic dread.

Regarding the codex, I hope exactly the opposite. 3.5 was an overpowered abomination I was quite happy to see go. Model wise, I'm with you. As someone with a passing interest in putting together a Chaos army, I'd like to have a plastic Lord kit, and some of the cult kits are starting to show their age.


. Look at tactical or CSM models. They're all one pose. They may as well be one piece. At least they would look better. Realistically they waste a ton of space on the sprues by having separate shoulders and arms when the shoulder only fits on one way. You don't need two arms, two shoulders, a head, two torsos, backpack, legs, gun, accessories. That's a just ten part model which assembles in one pose... The Space Hulk models are like one piece and are way more dynamic.

Well, the thing about the plastic SM kits is they're all compatable with each other. So yeah, it's tough to make interesting looking Tac Marines with just the contents of the Tac Marine box set. However, if you're willing to dip into other boxes, you can get some more interesting poses.

Here's (http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii130/Grand_Master_Raziel/Oct%202010%20Tactical%20images/?action=view&current=DSC00770-1.jpg&newest=1) a photo of a Tac Squad with a bunch of converted guys. I sort of cherry-picked some of my favorite recent figures for this one.
Here's (http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii130/Grand_Master_Raziel/Oct%202010%20Tactical%20images/?action=view&current=DSC00764-1.jpg&newest=1) a picture of guys I did to be DA-successor Company Vets/Sternguard, showing some more of the results I get mixing-and-matching the bitz. The Assault Squad kits are a godsend for someone looking to make cooler looking Marines. You can cut the pistols off the bolt pistol arms, and then glue a bolter into place quite easily. Plus, the running legs let you make running on-foot Marines. Maybe Chaos players could use SM Assault Squad kits for bitz-raiding. Raptors, I know, are pewter, and their design doesn't lend them to cross-bitz usage so readily.


I'd much rather if we're going to add 7 units to the army list, we saw daemon engines, siege engines, cultist or mutant rabble, dark mechanicus or insane CSM apothecary surgeons, bioengineered abominations, aircraft or new and peverse Chaos Space Marine units than just divide the daemons back into flavours.


Oh yeah! I'd much rather build a LatD style army than a Chaos Marine army, I'm just not very comfortable doing it without some rules to support it. Give me an army where I can have traitors and mutants and cultists, and I'd be a happy guy.


;5112953']The most obvious flaw is probably the lack of reliable, efficient ranged anti-vehicle weapons.

Really? Obliterators and autocannon Havocs and ACLC Preds aren't enough for you? Loyalist players are largely making do with ACLC Preds, and you don't hear us complaining about our Heavy Support choices.


;5112953'] Chaos also has plenty of CC-dedicated units, but not a single reliable delivery system. Rhinos do not suit CC units, and Chaos Land Raider are so bad it's not even funny.

Except maybe for the part where Chaos players can buy an upgrade for their LRs making them completely immune to Shaken and Stunned results? Sure, it drops them to BS3, but with all the LR's weaponry being twin-linked, that's not much of a factor. As for Rhinos, there's nothing wrong with using them as a CC-unit delivery system, they just require thinking about a turn or so in advance. Beats the hell out of footslogging.


;5112953']Noise Marines? Berzerkers? Vanilla CSM? I mean, really? Vanilla CSM and Noise Marines may be decent but are so overpriced it hurts, and Berzerkers pretend to be actual melee specialists when they are no match for Assault Terminators, Nobs, Incubis, or any actual CC unit.

Noise Marines are overpriced, I'll give you that. They should get sonic blasters for base price. All the other cult units get a stat boost and a USR for around the same price, but Noise Marines just get the stat boost. I don't think one can seriously claim vanilla CSM to be overpriced unless you're comparing them to Grey Hunters, and in that comparison I think it'd be more accurate to state that GHs are a bit underpriced. As for Berserkers not being actual melee specialists, I don't think you're giving them enough credit. You may not want to pitch them against Assault Terminators, Nobs, or Incubi, but those units are pretty much designed to take on smaller units of elite infantry just like Berserkers. Zerks, on the other hand, are phenomenal at laying the smackdown on large units in horde armies, and aren't so bad at taking on elite infantry units that aren't assault specialists. A mob of 30 Ork Boyz will tie down a unit of thunder hammer Termies for a long time, whereas a squad of 10 Khorne Berserkers will polish them off in one turn, assuming they can get the charge. That doesn't suck, not even a little bit.

Lord Inquisitor
11-11-2010, 22:40
Perhaps the Storm of Iron example wasn't the best example, but if you remember, even squad commanders were HH veterans. I also don't doubt that some Legions do, in fact, have fratricidal wars to determine who should command a company or whatnot. Death Guard is split in half with those who side with Mortarion and those who align with Typhus, we all know Magnus has an immense hatred for Ahriman, Night Lords warbands settle their differences with bolter and chainswords, and don't even start me on Black Legion...

Also, I believe "newcomer" is a relative term when describing Honsou. I don't exactly remember how long he'd been an Iron Warrior, but I believe he was indoctrinated was during The Scouring.

But we all know that if a Legion is in danger, each warband or company will put aside their differences and fight for the good of their Legion and gene father (perhaps with the exception of Typhus, but he's a ****** anyhow).
Do we? Maybe they'll kill each other after they've dealt with a common foe, but more likely they'll try to slit each others' throats.

The point of all this is that the Legions aren't happy-clappy families that operate as a single entity. They're fractured, individual armies.

And while command may be ancient veterans, there's no reason to assume the basic rank and file are.


;5112953']Some units may look usable when taken in a vacuum, but the army as a whole has so many flaws it's not even funny. Where do I even begin?
It's certainly showing it's age, but it's still placing in tournaments and not just DP/PM/Oblit spam either.

Sure, it could do with an overhaul. I just don't think it is nearly as unbalanced as you make out and I certainly don't think the 5th ed codecies are more balanced, just more bloated.


Noise Marines? Berzerkers? Vanilla CSM? I mean, really? Vanilla CSM and Noise Marines may be decent but are so overpriced it hurts, and Berzerkers pretend to be actual melee specialists when they are no match for Assault Terminators, Nobs, Incubis, or any actual CC unit.
They weren't overpriced when the codex was made. And Plague Marines were just undercosted. They were totally viable, the fact that codex creep has left them behind doesn't make it bad design.


If the Orks saw the same design paradigm (paradigm/concept, not layout) that hit Chaos Marines, then there would only be Warbosses and Wierd Boys in HQ, Elites would only have Nobs, Kommandos, and Flash Gits/Lootas/Tank Huntas (all in one), Troops would be only Boyz and Grots with no FOC shifting, Fast Attack would be War Truks, Storm Boyz, and Bikers, and Heavy Support would be the walkers, Looted Wagon, and Artillery Grots.
Fine let's look at the "lack" of variety in Codex: CSM and compare it to the Orks. And lets throw in Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Imperial Guard for good measure as two 5th ed books.

Special Characters
Chaos: 7
Orks: 6
Space Marines: 11
Imperial Guard: 12

HQ
Chaos: 4
Orks: 3
Space Marines: 7
Imperial Guard: 5

Elites:
Chaos: 4
Orks: 6
Space Marines: 9
Imperial Guard: 4

Troops (including transports)
Chaos: 7
Orks: 3
Space Marines: 5
Imperial Guard: 8

Fast attack
Chaos: 3
Orks: 4
Space Marines: 7
Imperial Guard: 8

Heavy Support
Chaos: 6
Orks: 6
Space Marines: 8
Imperial Guard: 14

Total:
Chaos: 31
Orks: 28
Space Marines: 47
Imperial Guard: 51

In terms of unit diversity Orks has less than Chaos Space Marines and there's a clear divide between them and the 5th ed codecies, that have 50% more units.


Ammendment: The layout and large use of USRs is hardly a definition of 4th Edition Codecies, if anything, it is a definition of 5th Edition concepts first tested with the Eldar and Dark Angels. Imperial Guard 5th is where we start seeing Unique Rules on almost every unit.
I don't know, 5th ed Space Marines were the first codex to start special rules for the sake of special rules on every unit. From Combat Tactics, through the HQ units (Orbital Bombardment, Honour or Death, Bolster Defences), Troops (hellfire shells on scouts? locator beacons, teleport homers), Elites (special ammo, venerable dreads, ironclads) Fast attack (Heroic Intervention, bikes that crap minefields and unique weapons, land speeders with stun cannons and jamming beacons), Heavy Support (thunderfire unique rules, siege shield). Not to mention the dozens and dozens of unique special rules provided by special characters and unit upgrades, and that's not even talking about all the unique special rules I think are reasonable (e.g. techmarine repair ability, or land raider power of the machine spirit).

Orks is definitely a 4th ed design paradigm and Space Marines is certainly a 5th ed design. The explosion of special characters didn't really happen until SM and the massive proliferation of unique special rules surely started with them too.

Logan_uc
12-11-2010, 00:36
[COLOR="magenta"]Simplicity is a good thing for game balance and good, tactical play. Special rules and multiple options add "flavour". Obviously there is a medium between the two - but if flavour can be achieved with minimum complexity, then that is the best game design. People may prefer more options and "fun" special rules to good game design and that's fine - it's a preference and neither is necessarily better than the other. Unless we're talking about game design and balance, in which case less options is necessarily easier to balance.

Chaos Daemons is a great example. Now, internally balanced it is not, because in terms of models, it's a Fantasy army in space. But given that set of models the codex is superb. Simple army-wide rules - but make the army very unique. The units are oozing character - daemonettes are very different from plaguebearers from bloodletters, etc... but done with very few unique rules at all. Their statlines and gifts based on USRs differentiate them well. The proof in the pudding? The book was balanced even when it came out - people have won some big tournies with them, but they're certainly not overpowered. The FAQ is what, less than a page? It's a terrifically designed book. And actually, I loved the background in that book. It took the stupid "chaos god tea party" idea and made it really cool. Jeremy Vetock should be forced to write the Chaos Daemon codex out ten times before he writes another codex.

Where Codex Chaos could be improved upon would be to reintroduce the "flavour" lacking - cult terminators, options for daemon princes and lords including some legion specific pieces, cultists, etc - without drowning it in heaps of IG or tyranid levels of pointless options, unnecessary special rules.

Simplicity doesn't mean a better balance and tactics, it means less things and a more "clean" codex, Balance is achieved through work, just because you only ave meet and rice doesn't mean its god, you need a good cook, it simply doesn't give as much work to the cook as a more complex dish would.

special rules can be used to balance a unit or give it a place in the army(ex: havocs in 3.5ed), some units that are rather simple are hard to get the cost right, some units that have special rules to fill a niche in the army so the price may not be a big problem as long as it is not absurd.

And who is that having less option makes for a more tactical game, you have less ways to approach the problem and less unit combinations so you have less tactics to employ in a game, look at csm very simple, very few viable tactics.

there are more complex codex that have better balance then csm and although they have a uber list or two, you can still make other lists that are competitive. its all about the work of the writer, if he is good enough to make a balance simple codex they can make a balanced complex codex.

PS: in the above post you have chaos wins on special chars that are never used they don't bring nothing to the game, unlike ork special chars, and also is a good example of who "simplifying" can be used to make things a lot more complex, csm 3.5 had 3 core and had options.

Jofus
12-11-2010, 02:25
Regarding the codex, I hope exactly the opposite. 3.5 was an overpowered abomination I was quite happy to see go. Model wise, I'm with you.

When I said like the 3.5 codex I did not mean overpowered but rather the options available. Sure some of them can be slimmed down or rebalanced but it was nice to give aspiring champions things like twin lightning claws when it would help out with the squads purpose, like berserkers.

Born Again
12-11-2010, 02:29
Why don't you try picking up a book? Such as, I don't know, "Soul Hunter", "Lord of the Night", the entire Dark Apostle series, or "Storm of Iron". The majority of those who align with the Legions are in fact the very same who crusaded for the Emperor and fought in the Horus Heresy. I would also say that most Heresy Vets in the Legions, whilst feeling that they've been in the warp for a few centuries, would still have more experience than their Loyalist counterparts. For one, they participated in the Great Crusade, were mentored by their Primarch, and when it came to the Heresy, fought against LEGIONS. Not a Chapter or a 'Guard regiment, but entire Legions. Not only this, but they also battled Primarchs. And half of the Imperium. Oh, and assaulted Terra. And they survived.

Well it looks like Lord Inquisitor did my work for me :p I know you have a different opinion, but I can't accept that a warrior that old and that experienced has the same profile as a newly indocrinated Tactical Marine. Anyone with that much experience is surely a Champion of some sort.



Perhaps the Storm of Iron example wasn't the best example, but if you remember, even squad commanders were HH veterans. I also don't doubt that some Legions do, in fact, have fratricidal wars to determine who should command a company or whatnot. Death Guard is split in half with those who side with Mortarion and those who align with Typhus, we all know Magnus has an immense hatred for Ahriman, Night Lords warbands settle their differences with bolter and chainswords, and don't even start me on Black Legion...

Also, I believe "newcomer" is a relative term when describing Honsou. I don't exactly remember how long he'd been an Iron Warrior, but I believe he was indoctrinated was during The Scouring.

But we all know that if a Legion is in danger, each warband or company will put aside their differences and fight for the good of their Legion and gene father (perhaps with the exception of Typhus, but he's a ****** anyhow).

And that's all I'm talking about really. They will always unite against a common foe, but this is Chaos and they're out to help themselves. When there's not a common enemy, they'll take their beefs out on their rivals within the Legion for sure... if they didn't, frankly Chaos would be a whole lot more boring for me.

Lord Inquisitor
12-11-2010, 02:44
Simplicity doesn't mean a better balance and tactics, it means less things and a more "clean" codex, Balance is achieved through work,
Right. But, the more units and options there are, the more playtesting and proofreading needs to be done. The number of possible army builds increases exponentially with more options.

Given that the designers and playtesters work on a schedule, there is a finite amount of time that can be spent (unlike, say, the fan-driven Epic lists, where years of playtesting has gone into those things). Therefore, the fewer units, options and unique special rules in a list, the more thoroughly it will be tested.

Again, game balance is not everything in a wargame or we'd still be playing chess. Obviously we all accept a certain amount of imbalance in the game and even a list like Chaos Daemons that is comparatively tight still has more options and combinations than could ever actually be fully tested. Therefore it is a matter of opinion. I just don't like the 5th ed codecies. They're overbloated and unbalanced. Instead of taking the 4th ed codecies and getting them right, they went crazy and reinvented the wheel - often trying to fix core mechanics issues with special rules.

One of my favourite examples is Lumbering Behemoth. The problem was that ordinance really didn't ever need to be restricted to "ordinance or other weapons". It's been an issue with ordinance tanks since 3rd. 5th ed rolled around and... the ordinance rules were left the same, but the main army with ordinance got a special rule that overruled the core rules. So we have a rulebook rule that is excepted by the main army that uses the rule. :wtf:

You could just remove the restriction on ordinance from the rulebook and Lumbering Behemoth. The rulebook is a little lighter and we remove a needless special rule that causes confusion - I know the INAT FAQ has a FAQ on this rule, I think the GW FAQ does as well. Plus it would resolve well with other ordinance tanks like Defilers (you might actually buy ranged weapons for the thing!). Win-win situation all round with reduced rules and reduced potential for confusion.


And who is that having less option makes for a more tactical game, you have less ways to approach the problem and less unit combinations so you have less tactics to employ in a game, look at csm very simple, very few viable tactics.
More options doesn't make more tactical. Chess and Go are complex games, despite having extremely simple rules.

Chaos has many builds and a few points tweaks here and there would open a wealth more. Options and special rules are required for flavour not "tactics." And sure, C:CSM could do with a bit more of that.


PS: in the above post you have chaos wins on special chars that are never used they don't bring nothing to the game, unlike ork special chars, and also is a good example of who "simplifying" can be used to make things a lot more complex, csm 3.5 had 3 core and had options.
You mean - shock horror - none of the chaos special characters are overpowered no-brainers? Eldrad, Ghazkull, Vulkan, Creed, Grimnar, Mephiston... The Chaos Codex actually has balanced special characters to the point that, while all certainly usable and I've personally seen every special character apart from Bile used in tournament lists, none of them are default choices over the generic characters? And that's a bad thing? :wtf:

Logan_uc
12-11-2010, 02:52
of topic, but where did people read that the time in the warp is slower, i really don't now where it is, I still only now the older fluff on that matter that says that the warp works both ways, 1 second in the warp can be 1000 years or a 1000 years can be 1 second.

Lord Inquisitor
12-11-2010, 03:02
Yeah, it's usually just "time flows differently there" but it certainly seems that there is some form of stasis or we'd be having a lot of Chaos Champions that die suddenly of old age in a second!

DuskRaider
12-11-2010, 03:08
Well it looks like Lord Inquisitor did my work for me :p I know you have a different opinion, but I can't accept that a warrior that old and that experienced has the same profile as a newly indocrinated Tactical Marine. Anyone with that much experience is surely a Champion of some sort.

The fact that a new Tactical Marine and a HH Vet have the same profile is more due to the inefficiency of the codex than it is a rendition of the fluff. Lord Inquisitor merely pointed out that Storm of Iron had indoctrinated Astartes from other Chapters, but did nothing to disprove my point at all. As I said, read Soul Hunter or Lord of the Night, or even the Dark Apostle series. You'll see HH Vets are alive and well, and in cases are still just rank and file. They may be over 10,000 years old in real time, but they've only had around a century or two pass by since the siege of Terra. And as I said, with the events before, leading up to, and beyond the Heresy, not to mention chillin' in the Warp for so long, I think they have a lot more experience then their watered down Loyalist counterparts. And by watered down, I mean "we're 10,000 years separated from our Gene Father and therefore our Geneseed isn't what it used to be". They're not as pure as the HH Vets would be, they're probably weaker as well.


And that's all I'm talking about really. They will always unite against a common foe, but this is Chaos and they're out to help themselves. When there's not a common enemy, they'll take their beefs out on their rivals within the Legion for sure... if they didn't, frankly Chaos would be a whole lot more boring for me.

Oh, well definitely. The Legionnaires aren't bound by the same codes and laws that Loyalists are. They live in a cutthroat society day to day, they've adapted well and in the end are really only have concern for their own well being. Although I'm positive you'll still find bonds, brotherhood, and loyalty amongst the Legionnaires.

Logan_uc
12-11-2010, 03:21
Right. But, the more units and options there are, the more playtesting and proofreading needs to be done. The number of possible army builds increases exponentially with more options.

Given that the designers and playtesters work on a schedule, there is a finite amount of time that can be spent (unlike, say, the fan-driven Epic lists, where years of playtesting has gone into those things). Therefore, the fewer units, options and unique special rules in a list, the more thoroughly it will be tested.

Again, game balance is not everything in a wargame or we'd still be playing chess. Obviously we all accept a certain amount of imbalance in the game and even a list like Chaos Daemons that is comparatively tight still has more options and combinations than could ever actually be fully tested. Therefore it is a matter of opinion. I just don't like the 5th ed codecies. They're overbloated and unbalanced. Instead of taking the 4th ed codecies and getting them right, they went crazy and reinvented the wheel - often trying to fix core mechanics issues with special rules.

One of my favourite examples is Lumbering Behemoth. The problem was that ordinance really didn't ever need to be restricted to "ordinance or other weapons". It's been an issue with ordinance tanks since 3rd. 5th ed rolled around and... the ordinance rules were left the same, but the main army with ordinance got a special rule that overruled the core rules. So we have a rulebook rule that is excepted by the main army that uses the rule. :wtf:

You could just remove the restriction on ordinance from the rulebook and Lumbering Behemoth. The rulebook is a little lighter and we remove a needless special rule that causes confusion - I know the INAT FAQ has a FAQ on this rule, I think the GW FAQ does as well. Plus it would resolve well with other ordinance tanks like Defilers (you might actually buy ranged weapons for the thing!). Win-win situation all round with reduced rules and reduced potential for confusion.


More options doesn't make more tactical. Chess and Go are complex games, despite having extremely simple rules.

Chaos has many builds and a few points tweaks here and there would open a wealth more. Options and special rules are required for flavour not "tactics." And sure, C:CSM could do with a bit more of that.


You mean - shock horror - none of the chaos special characters are overpowered no-brainers? Eldrad, Ghazkull, Vulkan, Creed, Grimnar, Mephiston... The Chaos Codex actually has balanced special characters to the point that, while all certainly usable and I've personally seen every special character apart from Bile used in tournament lists, none of them are default choices over the generic characters? And that's a bad thing? :wtf:

so you say that less lists make a better game (hell way not have only space marines that would be great), but also criticise seeing the same list over and over again.

you say that simplicity is good for balance, and then say that balance isn't all important.

chess may be tactical but you also can memorise every action possible in response to a move, you are rely trying to compare the incomparable.

(considering this I'm starting to feel the smell of trolling... hope I'm wrong)

As for your lumbering behemoth comment, I completely disagree, every thing doesn't need to be the same, guard has a unique style, and they took it away from the rules because it was probably to powerful, and gave it to a army where they could contain better its power, another case of simplifying doesn't mean balance.

For the characters you proved my point, the only one that brings any thing new to gameplay is the one no one plays, Fabius Bile, the others are just turbo charged, under priced and unupgradable lords unlike orks that taking them normally give an advantage to the army and so changes gameplay, and the point is that I don't count them as normal option because they don't bring any new strategies.

Vaktathi
12-11-2010, 03:24
I don't think CSM's need a fluff reboot, rather a refocus. CSM's have some great fluff. The problem is that currently they read like angry little brats or stereotypical throw-away evil overlords.

What CSM's lost was their inherent feeling of being dangerous even reading about, the dread enemy that lurked in the corners of space that mankind wishes to forget, borne from the Imperium's own failings and excesses at it's creation, something that remains mostly a distant bogeyman, but that will, on very rare and world ending occaisions, make itself known in terrifying displays of galaxy spanning aggression, violence, depravity, suffering and holocaust at the hands of those whose toil and blood built the Imperium and who now seek only to tear it down and erase it from existence.

The Traitor Legions are no longer bitter traitors who fight the Long War purely out of a sense of unquenchable hate and an deep feeling of betrayal, near gods who feel it was *they* who were betrayed and turned on, but rather they are simply those who either simply got carried away or ******** that they can't do what they want which seems to be an attempt to more unify the Dread Legions with the more recent "Renegades".

If this is fixed, and the Traitor Legions (of which some are still Heresy vets) are portrayed in their proper light and geared/organized as the Heresy era Space Marine Legions coupled with the experience and power that comes with being a veteran of 10,000 years of unholy, unending war (or underlings who fight under such dark heroes) and pacts with the powers of Chaos and freedom from the restrictions of the eternally self-bound Imperium, in addition to the more recent "chapter" heretics handled properly with equipment and organization far more like that of Codex:Space Marines, then all will be well.

Personally I feel Huron and his forces, and those like it, would best be served by a PDF/WD release as an "expansion" to Codex:Space Marines, giving them Marks, Daemons, some Daemon Engines, and more enhanced psychic powers and character wargear along with a couple SC's like Huron, but keeping the equipment, organization and statlines mostly the same from C:SM, removing of course certain obvious things one wouldn't find in a CSM army like Rosarius's and the like. It would not only fit the fluff better, but would then allow Codex: Chaos Space Marines to better portray what the army has historically been about, the Legions.

Logan_uc
12-11-2010, 03:28
Yeah, it's usually just "time flows differently there" but it certainly seems that there is some form of stasis or we'd be having a lot of Chaos Champions that die suddenly of old age in a second!

Not true, at least from the old fluff, time doesn't "pass" per say you only feel like it passed so you may not get old in the warp, and have always the "they where resurrected by daemons" like in codex orks etc... and the power of the god flowing through them thing. ( I know it doesn't make a lot of sense even if you mix string theory with it but what would you expect from a thing written by GW:evilgrin:)

DuskRaider
12-11-2010, 03:43
Yeah, it's usually just "time flows differently there" but it certainly seems that there is some form of stasis or we'd be having a lot of Chaos Champions that die suddenly of old age in a second!

:wtf:

Except that time doesn't flow the same way for them when they're in the Warp... their bodies don't suddenly go "Holy crap, I'm actually 10,000 years old! I have to die now!". And as far as we know, Astartes don't die of old age. At least from what I've read. Especially, as I've said in an earlier post, those with more pure genetics. I mean heck, there are still Fallen who have lived OUTSIDE of the Warp for 10,000 years, mingling as best they can into the general populace, and they still live.

Lord Inquisitor
12-11-2010, 03:58
so you say that less lists make a better game (hell way not have only space marines that would be great), but also criticise seeing the same list over and over again.

you say that simplicity is good for balance, and then say that balance isn't all important.

chess may be tactical but you also can memorise every action possible in response to a move, you are rely trying to compare the incomparable.

(considering this I'm starting to feel the smell of trolling... hope I'm wrong)
Saying that I like a balanced codex means I'm trolling? :eyebrows:

I think there is such a thing as "too bland" in the search for balance, and "too many variables" in the search for "flavour." GW in general errs far too far in the "flavour" side of things, always have.

What I'm saying is that it is possible to build a list that is flexible with many effective builds without a bazillion pointless upgrades, no-brainer special characters or endless special rules.


As for your lumbering behemoth comment, I completely disagree, every thing doesn't need to be the same, guard has a unique style, and they took it away from the rules because it was probably to powerful, and gave it to a army where they could contain better its power, another case of simplifying doesn't mean balance.
That makes no sense. There are very few other tanks that can carry ordinance. It's ALWAYS been an issue that it's just not worth taking extra weapons on tanks. Leman Russes prior to 5th typically didn't bother with sponsons, Defilers always swap their guns for additional CCWs, Vindicators don't buy additional weapons like stormbolters. Clearly there's an issue when noone ever uses the ranged weapon upgrades on defilers. This has been a clear issue with guard tanks in particular as they're the main ordinance tanks that carry additional weaponry.

It's a very clear case of papering over a deficiency in the rules. It doesn't add "flavour" it just renders a core rulebook rule entirely pointless.


For the characters you proved my point, the only one that brings any thing new to gameplay is the one no one plays, Fabius Bile, the others are just turbo charged, under priced and unupgradable lords unlike orks that taking them normally give an advantage to the army and so changes gameplay, and the point is that I don't count them as normal option because they don't bring any new strategies.
Special Characters don't need to change the force organisation chart to be interesting. Each of the 4 cult SCs represents the only way to get a cult lord, each of them brings something different to the table.

Conversely, Logan Grimnar brings something "new" - he's undercosted and more-or-less breaks the Space Wolf army. He's used to circumvent basic weaknesses in the list (e.g. move-and-fire or tank-hunting long fangs) and renders the basic troops useless. He's a total no-brainer - and consequently a badly designed character.

Col. Tartleton
12-11-2010, 04:03
Well, the thing about the plastic SM kits is they're all compatable with each other. So yeah, it's tough to make interesting looking Tac Marines with just the contents of the Tac Marine box set. However, if you're willing to dip into other boxes, you can get some more interesting poses.

Here's (http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii130/Grand_Master_Raziel/Oct%202010%20Tactical%20images/?action=view&current=DSC00770-1.jpg&newest=1) a photo of a Tac Squad with a bunch of converted guys. I sort of cherry-picked some of my favorite recent figures for this one.
Here's (http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii130/Grand_Master_Raziel/Oct%202010%20Tactical%20images/?action=view&current=DSC00764-1.jpg&newest=1) a picture of guys I did to be DA-successor Company Vets/Sternguard, showing some more of the results I get mixing-and-matching the bitz. The Assault Squad kits are a godsend for someone looking to make cooler looking Marines. You can cut the pistols off the bolt pistol arms, and then glue a bolter into place quite easily. Plus, the running legs let you make running on-foot Marines. Maybe Chaos players could use SM Assault Squad kits for bitz-raiding. Raptors, I know, are pewter, and their design doesn't lend them to cross-bitz usage so readily.

Yes, but as a five piece model you could still have all of that. You'd end up using like half the sprue space which actually means more options in the box. The body and legs don't need to be three parts which inevitably end up in basically the same pose. Shoulders don't need to be separate from arms if they end up fitting over them. Arm, Leg, Arm, Head, Backpack. And then you can have like twice as many options. You could have several marks of armor available, several leg and torso style configurations in different poses, and a ton of different arms with all types of stuff. Or there'd probably be room to include all the special and heavy weapons and wargear *shudders*

I'm just saying they could (or should) do it differently.

DuskRaider
12-11-2010, 04:20
Special Characters don't need to change the force organisation chart to be interesting. Each of the 4 cult SCs represents the only way to get a cult lord, each of them brings something different to the table.

Conversely, Logan Grimnar brings something "new" - he's undercosted and more-or-less breaks the Space Wolf army. He's used to circumvent basic weaknesses in the list (e.g. move-and-fire or tank-hunting long fangs) and renders the basic troops useless. He's a total no-brainer - and consequently a badly designed character.

Except that the Chaos Special Characters are uninspiring, for the most part they're not even representatives of their Legions anymore, and with the exception of Abby, not a single one has Eternal Warrior... you know, that thing that Champions of Chaos who, even BEFORE their alliance to the Dark Gods, were the cream of the crop, who have survived a legitimate 10,000 years, don't have but simple Loyalists do? Come on, man...

Lord Inquisitor
12-11-2010, 05:18
Except that the Chaos Special Characters are uninspiring, for the most part they're not even representatives of their Legions anymore, and with the exception of Abby, not a single one has Eternal Warrior... you know, that thing that Champions of Chaos who, even BEFORE their alliance to the Dark Gods, were the cream of the crop, who have survived a legitimate 10,000 years, don't have but simple Loyalists do? Come on, man...

Define "inspiring"...

I use Lucius the Eternal in my Emperor's Children. Not the most min-maxed option I could take but not terrible, allows for a nice little double-doom-siren attack that's just about competitive for his points and he fits my theme perfectly (although I do think that Lucy's rules could fit his fluff better). I've seen and played against thousand sons with arhiman, death guard with typhus and kharn is the epitome of a bezerker. How much more "inspiring" does Kharn need to be?

Mostly I see the chaos special characters taken for fluff or theme reasons but they're largely not so uncompetitive you'd be handicapping yourself. I think that's exactly what special characters should be!

But no, they're not "inspiring" because they don't have eternal warrior. Never mind the complaints that special characters in other armies are overpowered and eternal warrior is overused they get it so we should!

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-11-2010, 05:54
"Benny the Internet Troll"


much to the chargin of some trolls on here


I will assume that you are here just for the "fun" of trolling sir


considering this I'm starting to feel the smell of trolling

Seeing as all these are thinly veiled (if at all) attempts to implicate Lord Inquisitor in trolling I have to point out that in many circles, unjustified use of the insult 'troll' can be seen itself as trolling behavior. The definition of 'troll' is not 'disagrees with me.'

Logan_uc
12-11-2010, 06:19
Lord Inquisitor, I say you might be trolling because you contradict your self.

I never said that I like SC that change force organisation, i don't like it at all, SC shouldn't be a way to make a different army, but just being hq on steroids with some special equipment, isnīt also a good thing they should bring something to the army as a whole.

there is too bland in search of balance as there is going over the top for flavour.
and go figure it out, some of us give a damn about flavour. What, the poor writers can't be bothered to put some extra effort in there work to satisfy the costumer (you are clearly the minority).

The many variables you speak of are a part of the game, making a simple codex doesn't make them disappear, look at the "simple" codex they aren't any more balanced than the more complex, so way can't we have more? no it would be better to have only one list in the game so it could be balanced, just call it chaotic imperial xeno marines and the world would be wonderful.

the trough is that in practice simple codex aren't more balanced and are less fun, and yes some of us play the game for fun, who would imagine.
If the problem is seeing the same list over and over how does simplifying help it?

if you really like simple balanced games you are better playing chess, tic-tac-toe or other table top games that are more balanced, because 40k will never be balanced, and simplifying wont help as it was more then proved, it only takes away the flavour, and 40k greatest strength is its flavour.

DuskRaider
12-11-2010, 06:28
Seeing as all these are thinly veiled (if at all) attempts to implicate Lord Inquisitor in trolling I have to point out that in many circles, unjustified use of the insult 'troll' can be seen itself as trolling behavior. The definition of 'troll' is not 'disagrees with me.'

Actually, I wasn't talking about Lord Inq at all, but the handful of people that said CSMs can't be HH vets. I didn't name anyone in particular.

Logan_uc
12-11-2010, 06:29
Seeing as all these are thinly veiled (if at all) attempts to implicate Lord Inquisitor in trolling I have to point out that in many circles, unjustified use of the insult 'troll' can be seen itself as trolling behavior. The definition of 'troll' is not 'disagrees with me.'

I didn't call I'm troll, I just said that I was getting suspicious.

if you look at my earlier comments I didn't have any problem with Lord inquisitor disagreeing with me, i even gave merit to him, simply the contradictions in his posts and, saying the same thing over and over again without admitting any flaw in is argument (that is against the opinion of 99% of the posters), made me question is motives, may be I'm just paranoid.

Born Again
12-11-2010, 08:22
Let's try and stop this devolving in to a case of trolls trolling the trolls, lest we attract the Inquisition.


The fact that a new Tactical Marine and a HH Vet have the same profile is more due to the inefficiency of the codex than it is a rendition of the fluff. Lord Inquisitor merely pointed out that Storm of Iron had indoctrinated Astartes from other Chapters, but did nothing to disprove my point at all. As I said, read Soul Hunter or Lord of the Night, or even the Dark Apostle series. You'll see HH Vets are alive and well, and in cases are still just rank and file. They may be over 10,000 years old in real time, but they've only had around a century or two pass by since the siege of Terra. And as I said, with the events before, leading up to, and beyond the Heresy, not to mention chillin' in the Warp for so long, I think they have a lot more experience then their watered down Loyalist counterparts. And by watered down, I mean "we're 10,000 years separated from our Gene Father and therefore our Geneseed isn't what it used to be". They're not as pure as the HH Vets would be, they're probably weaker as well.

Well that's what I'm getting at. They may well be Heresy veterans... but they must have been in a time pocket that means only a century or so has gone by for them. So they haven't accrued the experience that others may have done. There are plenty of loyalist Marines over a century old, so I don't see it as making them that special, regardless of the wars they have been involved in.

You do raise the interesting point though of their genetics... they WOULD be more pure, closer to their Primarch and the Emperor's original blueprint for the marines. With that, of course, would surely come a superiority complex.

I don't know if we can blame things on Codex shortcomings, however, that seems a little unfair. I'd say it has more to do with the limits of a 10-point characteristic system. Orks are routinely shown to be stronger than a human, yet they are both strength 3... the gap between 3 and 4 would be, in real life, a significant one, so 3 is more like a band within itself than a set level. Without making stats out of 100 or something, they can't really show smaller differences. Therefore a warrior with 100 years experience in War A is much the same as someone with 100 years experience in War B. I don't have a real solution for this, personally it's something I'm happy to accept, but I think that's more the problem than the codex itself (unless you would like to see a very, very small model count army of ultra-elite warriors).



Personally I feel Huron and his forces, and those like it, would best be served by a PDF/WD release as an "expansion" to Codex:Space Marines, giving them Marks, Daemons, some Daemon Engines, and more enhanced psychic powers and character wargear along with a couple SC's like Huron, but keeping the equipment, organization and statlines mostly the same from C:SM, removing of course certain obvious things one wouldn't find in a CSM army like Rosarius's and the like. It would not only fit the fluff better, but would then allow Codex: Chaos Space Marines to better portray what the army has historically been about, the Legions.

As I said earlier, just a single page describing the Badab War, with Huron as a SC wouldn't be too much to ask for in the book, and would give some insight in to Post -Heresy Renegades. Relegating them to a PDF would cause me to become just as vocal as all the criers of "give me back my Legions" with "Give me my Corsairs in the codex!" It would cause all sorts of problems with tournies and so on, and is an unnecessary cut.

Now, on to SC's. I feel that some SC's in the Chaos book are rather lacking... Typhus' main attribute, indeed his title as "Host of the Destroyer Hive", is reduced to counting as grenades. Although the rules make him rather beastly, I don't like the summing up of Abaddon's Talon of Horus and his daemon sword in to a single attack. They are two separate weapons, and should be treated as such. Huron is dismally lacking in flavour as far as rules are concerned, his extensive bionics giving him no more than a 5++, which all the other characters have anyway. How about Feel No Pain? And a rule to show his force's more modern nature, and lesser use of daemons, like he had in 2nd edition?

Also, giving us back Cypher (upgrade character for some Chosen?) and someone like Honsou or Kor Phaeron.

Spell_of_Destruction
12-11-2010, 09:28
Model wise, I'd like to see them move a bit further away from being regular Space Marines as the OP has suggested. Something a bit closer to the old Rogue Trader Chaos Renegades:-

http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2108chaosrenegades.htm

Fluff wise they also need a bit of work. The problem is that 40k has been getting so 'grim dark' from 3rd ed onwards that the distinction between the 'good guys' and 'bad guys' has been over simplified into what is basically a Holywood blockbuster.

I'd like to see the moral lines blurred again.

The whole point of 40k is that the Imperium is an oppressive dystopian regime with medieval European morals and the "good guys" are not really good in a modern tree hugging sense at all.

Rather than making Chaos marines a collection of bitter and mindless maniacs, play on the moral ambiguity of the 40k universe. They have chosen not to blindly follow the Emperor but instead to follow the true powers of the universe - the Chaos gods, who are essentially unfiltered reality, free of the meaningless moral assertions of man.

This is a great quote from the 2nd ed Chaos codex:-

"I would rather die having glimpsed eternity than never to have stirred from the cold furrow of mortal life. I embrace death without regret as I embraced life without fear"

I had always associated Chaos with the values espoused by early Death Metal acts such as Morbid Angel and Obituary (basically before DM became a boring, burping gorefest) - the idea of discarding established human morality in order to determine the true meaning behind life.

Vaktathi
12-11-2010, 11:03
As I said earlier, just a single page describing the Badab War, with Huron as a SC wouldn't be too much to ask for in the book, and would give some insight in to Post -Heresy Renegades. Relegating them to a PDF would cause me to become just as vocal as all the criers of "give me back my Legions" with "Give me my Corsairs in the codex!" It would cause all sorts of problems with tournies and so on, and is an unnecessary cut.

If GW stamped an "official" stamp on it like they did the Nightspinner and BA's, it shouldn't be an issue for tourneys. The big thing to me is that trying to combine Heresy era Legions and more recent renegades in one book leads to a lot of conflict in terms of what units/wargear/weapons should be in the book. Huron's forces for example would be far more accurately modeled on a modified C:SM, rather than hamfisted into a book where the wargear and organization is primarily that of the original Legions. Huron's forces are not going to be running around with Reaper Autocannons instead of Assault cannons or TL Bolters instead of Stormbolters, just as World Eaters aren't going to be sporting Thunderfire Cannons or TH/SS termi's.

Don't get me wrong, I can see where problems could arise and acknowledge that. If a few pages in the back contained the info on modifying C:SM to suit more recent renegades and included SC's like Huron and the like that were separate from the Legion entries, I'd be fine with that as well, I just think trying to portray both within the same list leads to neither being done well. Recent renegades feel, at least to me from my understanding of the background, like they really would for the most part still play like a C:SM army, with maybe some access to Marks and a couple cool extra chaos-ey wargear items for IC's.

MvS
12-11-2010, 11:17
I'm of the belief that a tabula rasa would be the ideal approach for all factions - indeed for the entire 40K imagery.

All the bits and bobs that have evolved over the last 25 years or so can be weighed for quality then either discarded or melded together, with creases ironed out, fudged ambiguity re-worked into some genuine mystery and an even more consistent storyline and theme for each of the factions.

I also agree with the 'less spikey, more characterisation' approach to Chaos. Let the horror of being physically warped by Chaos speak for itself.

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-11-2010, 11:24
I agree with Vaktathi in principle. Huron's boys aren't really suited to either list, and nor would either list be suited to them and still do their main focus justice. However, another Codex isn't really an option with the way GW does Codices (slow and timed with model releases) and the overload of power armored Codices as it is. I think in general Renegade players are going to have to just pick a Codex and find justification where they can. Or play Apocalypse if they want the best of both worlds.

A PDF Codex won't be well received (at least, until all the Codices are PDFs... muahahahahah (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7edeOEuXdMU)).

Born Again
12-11-2010, 11:58
If GW stamped an "official" stamp on it like they did the Nightspinner and BA's, it shouldn't be an issue for tourneys. The big thing to me is that trying to combine Heresy era Legions and more recent renegades in one book leads to a lot of conflict in terms of what units/wargear/weapons should be in the book. Huron's forces for example would be far more accurately modeled on a modified C:SM, rather than hamfisted into a book where the wargear and organization is primarily that of the original Legions. Huron's forces are not going to be running around with Reaper Autocannons instead of Assault cannons or TL Bolters instead of Stormbolters, just as World Eaters aren't going to be sporting Thunderfire Cannons or TH/SS termi's.

Don't get me wrong, I can see where problems could arise and acknowledge that. If a few pages in the back contained the info on modifying C:SM to suit more recent renegades and included SC's like Huron and the like that were separate from the Legion entries, I'd be fine with that as well, I just think trying to portray both within the same list leads to neither being done well. Recent renegades feel, at least to me from my understanding of the background, like they really would for the most part still play like a C:SM army, with maybe some access to Marks and a couple cool extra chaos-ey wargear items for IC's.

Well, it's the principle of the thing too. I don't want to see any faction be relegated to a PDF-- I just don't think it's a good way of treating them. Make the doable with an existing book, or make them a new book unto themselves (which in this instance I am NOT in favour of: enough MEQ's as is).

But I really liked the way the Red Corsairs were handled in 2nd edition. Daemons were harder to summon, and they could take Ultramarines stuff at extra cost. Of course that would be harder to do now as they don't want stuff crossing books.

Although they originated as a more modern force, they no longer have the maintenance resources to keep everything up to speed. For instance, assault cannon barrels need regular replacement... they'd either have to use Reapers, or constantly be raiding for new barrels. If they had the ability to be making and maintaining assault cannons, razorbacks, whirlwinds etc, then why isn't Huron making a nice little fortune selling it to the Legions? :p We know they do mix with the Legions being in the Maelstrom, due to the Skull Harvest and Honsou, we would presume they've run in to the Word Bearers at some point too.

For that reason I think it's better to have something in a Chaos book with rules to "modernise" them, than rules in a Imperial book with rules to "spikify" them.

Badger[Fr]
12-11-2010, 14:10
Really? Obliterators and autocannon Havocs and ACLC Preds aren't enough for you? Loyalist players are largely making do with ACLC Preds, and you don't hear us complaining about our Heavy Support choices.
Loyalists also have TL-AC Dreads, Razorbacks, Sternguard Veterans (cheaper than Havocs or Devastators), Terminators with a CML, Typhoon Land Speeders, Heavy Weapons in Tactical squads, and the ability to stick HK missiles on each and every vehicle in their army. There is no shortage of reliable ranged firepower in the Vanilla book.


Except maybe for the part where Chaos players can buy an upgrade for their LRs making them completely immune to Shaken and Stunned results? Sure, it drops them to BS3, but with all the LR's weaponry being twin-linked, that's not much of a factor.
Chaos Land Raiders are no match for their loyalist counterparts. A Land Raider Crusader can fire no less than 4 different weapons on the move, and the Extra Armour + PotMS combination is by far better than Daemonic Possession. It is also worth mentioning than Assault Terminators beat basically any Chaos CC unit in terms of sheer efficiency.


As for Rhinos, there's nothing wrong with using them as a CC-unit delivery system, they just require thinking about a turn or so in advance. Beats the hell out of footslogging.
Granted, I'd rather in a Rhino than walk on foot... But in order to assault out of your closed-topped transport, you need to spend an entire turn within 12' of your intended target. Chances are your transport will get blown by a Meltagun and the passengers counter-charged or shot to pieces.


Noise Marines are overpriced, I'll give you that. They should get sonic blasters for base price. All the other cult units get a stat boost and a USR for around the same price, but Noise Marines just get the stat boost. I don't think one can seriously claim vanilla CSM to be overpriced unless you're comparing them to Grey Hunters, and in that comparison I think it'd be more accurate to state that GHs are a bit underpriced.
Tactical Marines may be expensive, but their heavy weapon allow them to engage the foe from afar. Meanwhile, in order to survive the close-ranged firefights they're designed for, Chaos Space Marines need several upgrades (dual Meltaguns, icons, aspiring champions with PW or PF...) which can quickly add up.


s for Berserkers not being actual melee specialists, I don't think you're giving them enough credit. You may not want to pitch them against Assault Terminators, Nobs, or Incubi, but those units are pretty much designed to take on smaller units of elite infantry just like Berserkers. Zerks, on the other hand, are phenomenal at laying the smackdown on large units in horde armies, and aren't so bad at taking on elite infantry units that aren't assault specialists. A mob of 30 Ork Boyz will tie down a unit of thunder hammer Termies for a long time, whereas a squad of 10 Khorne Berserkers will polish them off in one turn, assuming they can get the charge. That doesn't suck, not even a little bit.
Berserkers may be decent assault units, but they bring very little other units in the army could not do in the first place. A ten man Berserker squad can wipe out an Ork mob... But so do a Chosen squad with enough flamers, or a Vanilla CSM squad with dual flamers and a combi-flamer. Plus, Berserkers need to get the charge in order to be effective, and the lack of adequate transport vehicles hurts in that regard. Had Chaos the ability to field a relatively cheap, open-topped transport, Berserkers would be a far more competitive choice.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
12-11-2010, 14:48
Technically, most Legions DO have Techmarines... and Apothecarions... etc. etc.

Yeah. But what I was getting at is that they are not in the list and haven't had a presence for three codexes.

Kalishnikov-47
12-11-2010, 15:09
;5114659']Berserkers may be decent assault units, but they bring very little other units in the army could not do in the first place. A ten man Berserker squad can wipe out an Ork mob... But so do a Chosen squad with enough flamers, or a Vanilla CSM squad with dual flamers and a combi-flamer. Plus, Berserkers need to get the charge in order to be effective, and the lack of adequate transport vehicles hurts in that regard. Had Chaos the ability to field a relatively cheap, open-topped transport, Berserkers would be a far more competitive choice.

Giving them an open topped transport is a little OP. I think they should run about 19-20 pts. Considering Death Company are only 20 have the same stats, access to more weaponry and they have FnP.

Using Rhinos you can pull off very effective assaults. You just have to get around the inhibition of not being able to assault from any of the transports.

Am I the only one that wants DreadClaws and another transport. It could even be a daemon engine based transport. I just want another option is all. Abaddon could have an awesome deployment rule with Dreadclaws.

Just something to think about.

Lord Inquisitor
12-11-2010, 15:10
Lord Inquisitor, I say you might be trolling because you contradict your self.
Saying there is a give-and-take between balance and flavour, saying that there is a continuum between the two and saying there's such a thing as too much emphasis on either and therefore conceeding some weight to the opponent's argument is not contradicting myself.

Or should I be saying THERE IS ONLY GAME BALANCE ALL OTHER FACTORS SHOULD BE IGNORED? :eyebrows:

Thing is, you can achieve great fun, fluffy units without lots of special rules. In Epic, Space Marines fight like Space Marines and Imperial Guard fight very, very differently. But the Space Marine army list has one unit with a unique special rule and the Imperial Guard have two units with unique rules (three if you count titans). That's it! Yet with much fewer rules, Epic has more options for units to do and a vastly greater tactical depth. But I don't think anyone would say that the IG or the SM or the Eldar are remotely similar in gameplay.


I never said that I like SC that change force organisation, i don't like it at all, SC shouldn't be a way to make a different army, but just being hq on steroids with some special equipment, isnīt also a good thing they should bring something to the army as a whole.
And they do. Abby brings the Supreme High Commander Chosen of all the Gods badass guy, Lucy, Kharn, Typus and Arhiman each represent a cult lord and each epitomise their legion/cult, Huron... yeah, he's a bit dull, Fabius is a great and characterful little guy. Indeed, they "bring something" more than most SCs, given that the four cult guys fill a distinct niche in the list.


there is too bland in search of balance as there is going over the top for flavour.
You're contradicting yourself here, right? :p


and go figure it out, some of us give a damn about flavour. What, the poor writers can't be bothered to put some extra effort in there work to satisfy the costumer (you are clearly the minority).
"To disagree with three-fourths of the British public is one of the first requisites of sanity." :p

As you say, there is a give-and-take. So there needs to be a trade off between balance and flavour. We want maximum balance for maximum flavour. I think the 4th ed codecies were much closer to that.

I mean, what is "flavour"? What do, say, Space Marine Scouts need in terms of "flavour"? Well, they're scouts. So move-through-cover, infiltrate, scouts and maybe stealth for the cloaks. With a profile, job done, perfectly fitting their fluff. What do they have? All this, plus a special character, hellfire ammunition, bikes with unique grenade launchers (because regular grenade launchers wouldn't do) and crap minefields, speeders that have stun guns and teleport jammers, etc.

What about techmarines? What do they actually need? Well, they repair vehicles (which really ought to be a universal special rule by now as many armies have mechanics) and have servo arms and servitors. What the heck is with bolster defences? Surely the theme of the Space Marines is lightning attack? Sure they could bolster defences, but then so could Imperial Guard, Tau and everyone else really. Indeed it would be far more in character for Imperial Guard techpriests, wouldn't it? Bolster defences and minefields are entirely against the flavour of the army. Possibly for an Imperial Fist special character but it's not just "not adding to the flavour" its actually detracting from the theme of the army.

Hey, I may be in the minority. If people like a less balanced, less tactical game then knock yourselves out, but I still love this game and I love my Chaos army and this new direction just pisses me off.



the trough is that in practice simple codex aren't more balanced and are less fun, and yes some of us play the game for fun, who would imagine.
The truth is that a simple codex is less difficult to balance, creates far less confusion and streamlines gameplay. And some of us actually find playing a streamlined, tactical game fun. I don't find the 5e codecies fun. I find trying to keep up with all the "fun" rules in the Tyranid codex just exhausting and the special rules just take over the gameplay with all the mawlocs and tervigons and guns that don't need line of sight and soforth. Playing Space Wolves with no Troops and who have lone wolves and thunderwolves all decked out with stormshields and Logan and Njal in every army...

"Fun"? Yeah, if you say so.


If the problem is seeing the same list over and over how does simplifying help it?
Simplify the rules and the pointless options, not the army list itself. Taking the Chaos list and balancing it internally with some points tweaks would open a wealth of list options. Instead I fear an Imperial Guard type treatment where a heap of new unbalanced units are added and stormtroopers and ogryns are still not balanced and many old favourites like the basalisk are inexplicably nerfed.


if you really like simple balanced games you are better playing chess, tic-tac-toe or other table top games that are more balanced, because 40k will never be balanced, and simplifying wont help as it was more then proved, it only takes away the flavour, and 40k greatest strength is its flavour.
We can have flavour and still have a hell of a lot more balance than we have now.

Erazmus_M_Wattle
12-11-2010, 15:51
Giving them an open topped transport is a little OP. I think they should run about 19-20 pts. Considering Death Company are only 20 have the same stats, access to more weaponry and they have FnP.

Using Rhinos you can pull off very effective assaults. You just have to get around the inhibition of not being able to assault from any of the transports.

Am I the only one that wants DreadClaws and another transport. It could even be a daemon engine based transport. I just want another option is all. Abaddon could have an awesome deployment rule with Dreadclaws.

Just something to think about.

Actually I think they should have dread claws. I had been thinking that it would detract from the imperial marines uniqueness but Nids have drop pods of a sort to so the precedent is already set. Since chaos used drop pods before the Heresy it makes sense they'd still use the tactic.

I would hope to see plastic Dreadclaws but I would want them to re envisage them the way they did with the drop pod. I am unsure whether I like the detailing of the forgeworld version.

They could also create a Chaos Landraider variant with an increased capacity of twenty but some kind of draw back because Chaos Marines are insane and have less concern for their followers safety.

Badger[Fr]
12-11-2010, 16:19
In a perfect world, Codices would be both streamlined, balanced, varied, and characterful. At the moment, 40k players have:
-5th Edition Codices who, despite internal balance issues and unnecessary special rules, still feature enough good units to allow for varied competitive builds.
-4th "streamlined" (not exactly true, because the Eldar and the Orks still have their fair share of silly rules) Codices whose internal balance is every bit as bad as their 5th Edition counterparts, but is only made worse by a smaller choice of units and army-wide issues (be it the overall mediocrity of Eldar Aspect Warriors or the lack of decent Ork anti-vehicle weapons).

I, for one, favour the former choice. Of course, I wish 5th Edition Codices were more streamlined, but, truth to be told, I don't really care as long as the book is competitive and varied enough. The end justifies the means.

gorgon
12-11-2010, 16:24
To the OP, it depends on what you mean by "DE treatment." Chaos doesn't necessarily need a new look and miniatures line. But it badly needs some reconcepting -- at least around the different levels of Chaos and how the codices should be structured, IMO.

I think Chaos can be roughly lumped into three conceptual buckets, which then become the following three codices:


1) Codex: Chaos -- covers "undivided" Legions and renegades. Powerful CSMs leading more mishmash armies with some gribblies and Traitors. Bit of a piratical feel. More of an old-school Realm of Chaos approach.

2) Codex: Ruinous Powers -- covers WE, DG, EC and TS, as well as aligned DIY legions/chapters. Delves deeper into the "big 4." More CSM focus. True Chaos zealots. Aligned wargear and a few aligned daemons.

3) Codex: Daemonworlds -- Full array of daemons plus mutants. More daemon engines. Supplemental and optional rules for fighting on daemonworlds.


So only one additional book compared to what we currently have, and I think Chaos in 40K would be far more interesting as a result. The Ruinous Powers book would be the most challenging one to pull off, but throw Phil Kelly at the job and he'd find a way to make it work.

FWIW, I tend to think some significant shakeups will happen to Chaos once they get it on the schedule.

Draconis
12-11-2010, 16:36
In a perfect world, GW would make all their codexii online as a pdf and would offer updates constantly for $20-$25 a year membership. Sort of like what Wizards did with 4th ed d&D.

And GW would make a fortune and be happy, and then that would trickle down to us and we'd be happy.

massey
12-11-2010, 16:54
Sigh. Not this again.

There are two problems with the current Chaos codex. First, it focused on a part of the background that didn't interest most Chaos players. It works pretty well for representing the warband of some random Chaos lord, but we now know that most players didn't want that. Second, the book came out during a streamlining phase (along with the Dark Angels), and so it seems kinda bland next to the newer books. It holds up pretty well in power level, but it's boring.

Okay, now let's move on.

The first thing Chaos players need to just accept is that Khorne Berzerkers and Plague Marines have never been this good. If the current book had come out, and didn't have any cult troops listed at all, just "for +20 points you can have a banner of khorne, and your guys will be khorne berzerkers and get +1 attack", nobody would have blinked. Ironically, by making cult troops better than just regular guys with a mark, GW pissed everyone off. Part of the trade off for not being able to take a generic Chaos Lord with FNP or an electric guitar is that you get some pretty rockin' troops selections (probably still the best in the game).

Now, a future Chaos codex will undoubtedly be different. Judging by the last half dozen codexes, a new Chaos book will include lots and lots of options. There will be a lot of new units. Just don't be surprised if some of the bread and butter selections from the current book turn out to not be as good. I really am not interested in hearing a host of complaints if Plague Marines no longer have FNP in the new book.

AlphariusOmegon20
12-11-2010, 17:03
In a perfect world, GW would make all their codexii online as a pdf and would offer updates constantly for $20-$25 a year membership. Sort of like what Wizards did with 4th ed d&D.

And GW would make a fortune and be happy, and then that would trickle down to us and we'd be happy.


LOL and I'd not pay a penny for it. 4th ed D&D is a horrible ruleset. D&D died a horrible screaming death after they took away 2nd ed.


WOTC killed D&D.

Kalishnikov-47
12-11-2010, 17:18
Actually I think they should have dread claws. I had been thinking that it would detract from the imperial marines uniqueness but Nids have drop pods of a sort to so the precedent is already set. Since chaos used drop pods before the Heresy it makes sense they'd still use the tactic.

I would hope to see plastic Dreadclaws but I would want them to re envisage them the way they did with the drop pod. I am unsure whether I like the detailing of the forgeworld version.

They could also create a Chaos Landraider variant with an increased capacity of twenty but some kind of draw back because Chaos Marines are insane and have less concern for their followers safety.

To that extent I had also thought that alot of the chaos units should be able to teleport in such as Thousand Sons and the like since most of the time in the fluff they are always walking through a portal into battle. So I was thinking you get DoA style deep strike rules from Blood Angels and then the drawback if you roll a 1 for the distance you take D3 armour saves or something.

But I certainly do approve of having more options for transports. I mean we are Chaos, we certainly get around in more ways than enjoying our golf cart APC's we call Rhinos.

EDIT-
To the OP, it depends on what you mean by "DE treatment." Chaos doesn't necessarily need a new look and miniatures line. But it badly needs some reconcepting -- at least around the different levels of Chaos and how the codices should be structured, IMO.

I think Chaos can be roughly lumped into three conceptual buckets, which then become the following three codices:


1) Codex: Chaos -- covers "undivided" Legions and renegades. Powerful CSMs leading more mishmash armies with some gribblies and Traitors. Bit of a piratical feel. More of an old-school Realm of Chaos approach.

2) Codex: Ruinous Powers -- covers WE, DG, EC and TS, as well as aligned DIY legions/chapters. Delves deeper into the "big 4." More CSM focus. True Chaos zealots. Aligned wargear and a few aligned daemons.

3) Codex: Daemonworlds -- Full array of daemons plus mutants. More daemon engines. Supplemental and optional rules for fighting on daemonworlds.


So only one additional book compared to what we currently have, and I think Chaos in 40K would be far more interesting as a result. The Ruinous Powers book would be the most challenging one to pull off, but throw Phil Kelly at the job and he'd find a way to make it work.

FWIW, I tend to think some significant shakeups will happen to Chaos once they get it on the schedule.

I had an idea for this,but I used different names haha.

Codex Chaos Space Marines (Legionnaires), Codex Chaos Renegades (Guard and Marines), Chaos Daemons (duh!). nice set up and justification as well :)

Lord Inquisitor
12-11-2010, 17:55
;5114910']In a perfect world, Codices would be both streamlined, balanced, varied, and characterful. At the moment, 40k players have:
-5th Edition Codices who, despite internal balance issues and unnecessary special rules, still feature enough good units to allow for varied competitive builds.
-4th "streamlined" (not exactly true, because the Eldar and the Orks still have their fair share of silly rules) Codices whose internal balance is every bit as bad as their 5th Edition counterparts, but is only made worse by a smaller choice of units and army-wide issues (be it the overall mediocrity of Eldar Aspect Warriors or the lack of decent Ork anti-vehicle weapons).

I, for one, favour the former choice. Of course, I wish 5th Edition Codices were more streamlined, but, truth to be told, I don't really care as long as the book is competitive and varied enough. The end justifies the means.
My question is why can't they take those 4th ed codecies and get them right?

Thing about the Eldar and Ork codecies is that while they have some silly rules, they're typically warranted. The Shokk Attack Gun is supremely silly, but it requires special rues. Whereas with most of the 5th ed codecies, often it feels like special rules for the sake of. Why do Gargoyles need poison? Why does a flying gaunt need to be "special"? And if it does, why does it need a unique rule for this rather than using the Poisoned Weapons rule from the rulebook?


I think Chaos can be roughly lumped into three conceptual buckets, which then become the following three codices:


1) Codex: Chaos -- covers "undivided" Legions and renegades. Powerful CSMs leading more mishmash armies with some gribblies and Traitors. Bit of a piratical feel. More of an old-school Realm of Chaos approach.

2) Codex: Ruinous Powers -- covers WE, DG, EC and TS, as well as aligned DIY legions/chapters. Delves deeper into the "big 4." More CSM focus. True Chaos zealots. Aligned wargear and a few aligned daemons.

3) Codex: Daemonworlds -- Full array of daemons plus mutants. More daemon engines. Supplemental and optional rules for fighting on daemonworlds.

I think I like the sounds of this, although CSM seem to fall in all of your brackets. Your first one includes traitor Guard, right?

I think that it's not likely, though. Since the codecies are updated sequentially.

I would think a more likely scenario would be as follows:

Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Big focus on the legions, limited daemon engine, daemon or cultist support.

Codex: Lost and the Damned. Total freakshow mashup with guard, mutant, renegade CSM and many daemonic engine elements.

Codex: Daemons. Many more "unbound" daemon engines as variants of the "bound" varieties in the above.

Warp-Juicer
12-11-2010, 18:06
Wow this post is booming.

I'd like to say that if they DO hack into the fluff, they need to keep the nature of the legions and the relationship between the gods and their followers the same, or atleast how they had it in the 3.5 book. Do not give us another beastmen book where the Chaos Gods are none existant for the most part(aside from some ackward chaos gifts, chaos spawn, and chaos giants.).

Draconis
12-11-2010, 18:59
I like those ideas for the codexii, however, I'd love to be able to take all 3 and mash them together to make an army as I own both CSM and Daemons. Maybe if they just made some of them the same, like for instance, the Daemon Prince in Chaos Daemons. They should be the same for all chaos codexii. The lesser daemons like Bloodletters should be a staple in all 3 but without the individual characters or Heralds except in Chaos Daemons. These should be the cornerstones of the 3 codexii.

For example, all 3 of them should have the lesser daemons and the same options if they have the same daemons in their codex. All 3 should be able to take the greater daemons like the bloodthirster and keeper of secrets and the rest. But only chaos daemons should be able to take the Masque and Skulltaker. And only CSM should be able to take Predaters.

Damn, now I'm wanting to make a codex like this.

gorgon
12-11-2010, 19:00
I had an idea for this,but I used different names haha.

Great minds think alike. ;)

Although I think it has to be said that it's generally obvious that they could parse out the elements of Chaos better than they are currently -- assuming 3 books to work with instead of 2. So I dunno that we're *that* smart. :P

And while I don't like the extremely stripped-down approach in the CSM book from that time of 4th edition, it should probably be said that had they done a Legions book(s) as they originally planned, we might view the current CSM book a little differently. Okay, probably not overwhelmingly positively, but better, at least.

Again, I really do think GW will fix Chaos in the next go-around. Too much potential there that they're falling short of, and they have to know it.


@Draconis -- I dunno that I agree with you on your specific points, but I agree keeping certain key elements in common -- which is also good for sales, I might add -- is a good approach, as long as the armies also have clear differentiation. And that goes back to concepting out all the books at the same time and properly identifying how each fits into the whole of Chaos in 40K.

GW may have done this with the last go-around, they just never did anything about the Legions component.



I think I like the sounds of this, although CSM seem to fall in all of your brackets. Your first one includes traitor Guard, right?

I think that it's not likely, though. Since the codecies are updated sequentially.

Yep, Traitor IG in #1. No CSM in #3, though. Just daemons, daemon engines and mutants. Mutants make it for both gameplay reasons -- to provide some alternative play styles -- and fluffilogical reasons -- because daemonworlds are supposed to be teeming with mutants, and someone has to be crewing/maintaining/etc. all those daemon engines.

It actually could be done without upsetting things much. What you do is release #2 *first.* That gives Legions players their home. Then you release #1, which supplants the current CSM book and gives renegade players their home. Then you release #3 down the road. Voila...no one really gets disenfranchised.

Kalishnikov-47
12-11-2010, 19:07
Great minds think alike. ;)

Of course mate. :)

As long as GW is smart enough to learn from their mistakes and figure out how to seperate and combine the armies of Chaos I will be fine.

Traitor Legionnaires, Renegades and Guardsmen, and Daemons I think would fit the bill correctly, and since they have 1/3 of it done so far they just need to fix that heap that is the 4th Edition Chaos Space Marines Codex.

Draconis
12-11-2010, 19:17
Well, lets look at it this way. Each of the 3 codexii would have the following in common. And this is just off the top of my head.

Bloodletters
Plaguebearers
Daemonettes
Pink Horrors

Bloodthirster
Keeper of Secrets
Lord of Change
Great Unclean one

Those 8 entries should be a staple in any chaos army as lets face it, they are daemonic forces. Whether you believe you work for the greater powers or not, or if fluff dictates you don't like Daemons *cough* Nightlords *cough* The gods might see it differently.

Now, the following would only be in Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons
Daemon Prince. They should both be identical, even if they are in different FOC slots. HQ for CSM and Heavy for Daemons. But they should have the same upgrades and such.

Anything to do with power armor should stay in the CSM and any Daemon with an identity such as the "bigger" greater daemons, the heralds and the unique heralds should stay in the Daemons army.

Daemon Machines should mostly stay where they are, Defilers in CSM and Grinders in Daemons. Though certain legions could possibly mix the two, like Word Bearers could get a rule allowing Soul Grinders.

Col. Tartleton
12-11-2010, 19:26
In short, rather than telling you how evil space marines are, weave a mythos of utter madness, destruction, and brutality and if people don't get it, give them an injection of the art.



"They don't seem that bad to me. I just looked at the Marine book and they seem like a bunch of Zealot Nazis."

100623

"Oh. Yep, that's a bad guy."

Draconis
12-11-2010, 19:28
Lol, nice. No thats a pervert.

If peeps ever want to know how mad, psychotic and angry CSM can be, I highly suggest you read Lord of the Night by Simon Spurrier. This dude is a try psychotic. Another good series is the Dark Apostle. That ones pretty damned amazing.

Lord Inquisitor
12-11-2010, 19:29
I don't think the daemons should form the core of the CSM at all. It also steals much of the Daemon book's thunder. In terms of focus it suggests that the CSM operate at the whims of the daemons which isn't the case. A generic "daemonic filth" entry does the job. Adding 4 HQ and 4 Troops choices to the CSM book takes a huge part of the emphasis away from the spikey marines.

What I would like to see would be much more in the way of daemon engines. I think the CSM's relationship with daemons should be more that they abuse the daemons, trap them and release them on the enemy, either bound in a vehicle host or unbound.

Vaktathi
12-11-2010, 19:33
What I would like to see would be much more in the way of daemon engines. I think the CSM's relationship with daemons should be more that they abuse the daemons, trap them and release them on the enemy, either bound in a vehicle host or unbound.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Daemons are something to be used and discarded as quickly as possible, certainly not something that forms the bulk of CSM forces or that most of them continually engage with on a consistent basis.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
12-11-2010, 19:42
I don't think the daemons should form the core of the CSM at all. It also steals much of the Daemon book's thunder. In terms of focus it suggests that the CSM operate at the whims of the daemons which isn't the case. A generic "daemonic filth" entry does the job. Adding 4 HQ and 4 Troops choices to the CSM book takes a huge part of the emphasis away from the spikey marines.


I agree, but I think it would be nice to have the option to mark the Daemons for some minor benefit. It would be nice to be able to take Daemons that compliment mono-god lists, even if it doesn't drastically change the way the Daemons operate.

Blackwolf
12-11-2010, 19:48
I think if Daemons (marked) were added to the CSM book they should be elite. I do think that even in a CSM book there should be a conscript troop entry but they should have to have a number of CSM in the squad something like gretchin,and boyz. I think giving them a greater Daemon would be ok but lower stats than a Greater Daemon from codex Daemons ie the big guys don't get used so easily, and you can only take one if you take a sorcerrer lord. Mabey even take it as a spell that costs a bunch of points and can only be used once per game.

gorgon
12-11-2010, 19:55
I agree, but I think it would be nice to have the option to mark the Daemons for some minor benefit. It would be nice to be able to take Daemons that compliment mono-god lists, even if it doesn't drastically change the way the Daemons operate.

It's still surprising to me that they didn't do this in the last go-around. Figure +1A for Khorne, +1T for Nurgle, etc. It's really not hard to balance and still provides a very stripped-down entry. But then I guess they really wanted to clear out that much design "space" for the Daemons book. I remember wondering if generic daemons were actually a late addition after removing all daemon options from the book in earlier drafts. *shrug*

@Col. Tartleton -- that looks like your standard renegade Space Marine to me. :p

DuskRaider
12-11-2010, 20:16
Seriously, I'd be perfectly fine if they took 4th Ed. Chaos Codex, gave the troops the same options that the Daemons have (give my Champion a 2+ Poison Power Sword), make my Daemon Prince as customizable as theirs (maybe a bit more powerful since it's an HQ), and change those crappy Pyschic Powers into regular ones like they used to be. Just allow us to give our Plague Marines or Berserkers or Noise Marines TDA or make them Chosen, and I think we'd be fine. I would LOVE some new Daemon Engines (Blight Drones and Blood Slaughterers are great, and could yuo imagine taking a Defiler, a Soul Grinder, AND a Plague Hulk in one list?!).
The biggest problem with the 4th Edition Chaos codex, besides the lack of options and horrible internal balance, is we were given NOTHING new. Every single option in the codex was accessible to at the very least one list build in the 3rd Edition! So we got an update with nothing new (although my Death Guard army became known as "cheesy" from there on out).

Draconis
12-11-2010, 20:26
I didnt say dameons should form the base for CSM armies, only that the option is there to take. Though i do like the ideas of them being elites instead of troops. As for the big guys, they've always had them. They have them in every game. Its kinda an icon. And yes, there does need to be a sacrifice. Shouldnt have to be a sorc though, should be like it is, any champ, lord or sorc.

Not to mention having the real lesser daemons ties the armies together as one faction. I think I'm going to put some heart into this and make a codex just to see how it turns out. Lol, who knows, maybe GW will get lazy and steal it for their own. Not that I'd complain.

Chem-Dog
12-11-2010, 20:58
I think the CSM should be given a massive overhaul.
It's not the sort of thing that happened with the Dark Eldar though, it's fluff stuff mainly. The Horus Heresy books have altered the perception of anyone who has read them regarding the heresy AND the traitor Legions, this needs to be rolled into a single thread of continuous storytelling.

In an ideal world the CSM's would be dealt with in separate books, it's not a case of me saying "Loyalists get Moar codexes, so should Chaos" (although I can understand the sentiment) but it's a case of me saying that the CSM have as rich a tapestry of background as the loyalist legions/chapters that deserves to be covered AND represented in the rules.

Eldrad
12-11-2010, 21:02
Realistically they can make the Renegade Players and the Legion players happy with just one dex.

A simple "Saga" system for the Lords where by paying x amount of points your army gains x rule. Would take maybe 2 pages to list all 9 legions. Or go all out and give each legion 2 or 3 rules per "Saga". Needn't be anything extravagant either just for x points upgrade your Lord to a NightLord following units gain x but lose y, and A unit moves to B in FoC. And make it so you cant mix and match. Same for renegades.

Demon engines would be nice. Silver Towers for TSons, Plague Drones for Nurgle etc..


Realistically though all they needed to do with the old codex to shut up 85% of the people complaining about it was to allow Cult HQ, Terminators ,and Dreads. Had they done that I think most chaos players would be satisfied. And I feel its inevitable that the next Chaos Dex will give you those options.

I still feel however that like the DE, Chaos does need a more striking visual feel to differentiate itself from loyalist marines. Not that Chaos looks bad now, just that if you were to paint them like Ultra Marines how many people would really notice the difference?

Kalishnikov-47
12-11-2010, 21:11
Realistically though all they needed to do with the old codex to shut up 85% of the people complaining about it was to allow Cult HQ, Terminators ,and Dreads. Had they done that I think most chaos players would be satisfied. And I feel its inevitable that the next Chaos Dex will give you those options.

I still feel however that like the DE, Chaos does need a more striking visual feel to differentiate itself from loyalist marines. Not that Chaos looks bad now, just that if you were to paint them like Ultra Marines how many people would really notice the difference?

This. I have to agree with these points wholeheartedly, it made every Chaos player scratch his head when cult troops only wore power armour, none could take TDA which is one of the most iconic things that would really separate them as true cult troops.

Instead we got the Swiss Army knife Terminators which are great, they really are, but I wanna say it cost the army it's soul. I have been looking back into the 1st and 2nd Ed rulebooks and have found nothing on cult troops in TDA, but I still think they exist in the 40k universe.

AlexHolker
12-11-2010, 21:41
I have been looking back into the 1st and 2nd Ed rulebooks and have found nothing on cult troops in TDA, but I still think they exist in the 40k universe.
They were in the 2nd edition codex, but not the Black List that came with the core rules. Whether they existed in RT I cannot say.

Kalishnikov-47
12-11-2010, 21:55
Nice find. :) I just wish we had the power we were meant to have, it really felt like Gav put Chaos on a diet when he made the codex. Which he subsequently also forgot to feed as well.

Culgore
12-11-2010, 23:29
I guess I will weigh in as I usually do on this subject.

I love the Deathguard. Outstanding story... Typhus pretty cool dude. Rules-wise he is less than good(this applies to the rest of the Chaos SC's, save for Abbadon). He's been around since the heresy? and doesn't have EW? Good thing no one has thought of firing a krak missile at him, or a stray basilisk round. But Deathguard has become terribly boring, and I have started purchasing Dark Eldar(Well played GW).

Anyway this most recent codex is a bust(apparently acknowledged by GW) It was already easy enough in the 3.5 book to make a renegade list. This book forced it on the player. Plague marines are tough, but hit them with a dedicated assault unit and you will find they are not that tough (I3 plague marines is another stupid feature in this codex)

So here is how you fix it. Give Chaos a few unique choices in their army list. Make traitor guard/cultists available. Make terminators cultable. Give them some *********** gear..."Really?!? in 10,000 years the killiest thing I was able to find was this powersword?!? Woopdeedo" -Chaos Lord. Tweak some stat lines/pt values.( take away the ridiculous "shoot your own guys because you are so chaos" rule from the dreadnought)

Do they need to redo the line of models? No not all of them. I would like to see updated chaos marine kit. (apparently being a chaos marine means you spend at least 40% of your time killing cows for their horns). Update the stupidass dreadnought model, doesn't have to be done FW makes ridiculous good ones.(to be fair they are expensive... more so than GW plastic already is). Maybe a better vehicle upgrade sprue.

And finally stop arguing about how old the chaos space marines are. Yes, some of them are 10,000 years old, these are the oldest. Now since we can assume there have been Space Marines falling to chaos in that 10,000 year span until the "present" so we can assume there are Chaos Space Marines from 20ish-10,000 years old. Please for the love of the Chaos Gods stop arguing this.

"But how do they live that long?"-you cry

"It's *********** Chaos"

Blackwolf
12-11-2010, 23:35
I didnt say dameons should form the base for CSM armies, only that the option is there to take. Though i do like the ideas of them being elites instead of troops. As for the big guys, they've always had them. They have them in every game. Its kinda an icon. And yes, there does need to be a sacrifice. Shouldnt have to be a sorc though, should be like it is, any champ, lord or sorc.

Not to mention having the real lesser daemons ties the armies together as one faction. I think I'm going to put some heart into this and make a codex just to see how it turns out. Lol, who knows, maybe GW will get lazy and steal it for their own. Not that I'd complain.

I was not saying sacrifice the sorc just that he has to be in the list to perform the summoning ritual. There are all different power levels of the greater daemons so a slightly less powerful one than in the daemon codex would still be cool and powerful but leave the best of them for their unique codex.

Draconis
12-11-2010, 23:56
You could also look at it as the daemoned isn't summoned in sorcerous ways. After all, a lord can have an icon too. Hes just gifted with a daemonic pressence that decides after all to possess him. Happened to Honsou in Storm of Iron. As for surviving for 10k years, all marines are pretty much immortal age wise. Their suits sustain their every need. There are quite a few loyalist marines that are quite old, but imo they fight alot more and are exposed to more danger throughout their career.

Grand Master Raziel
13-11-2010, 04:45
Yes, but as a five piece model you could still have all of that. You'd end up using like half the sprue space which actually means more options in the box. The body and legs don't need to be three parts which inevitably end up in basically the same pose. Shoulders don't need to be separate from arms if they end up fitting over them. Arm, Leg, Arm, Head, Backpack. And then you can have like twice as many options. You could have several marks of armor available, several leg and torso style configurations in different poses, and a ton of different arms with all types of stuff. Or there'd probably be room to include all the special and heavy weapons and wargear *shudders*


I'm going to disagree with you on several of these points. The relationship of torso to legs actually matters a great deal to the appearance of a mini. Gluing on the torso with it pivoted off center in relation to the legs changes the pose quite a bit. Also, if the torso+legs were all one piece, it'd be impossible to swap out the standard legs with the running legs (or the kneeling legs one can get now). Once-piece torsos may make sense, but the shoulder pads being seperate also allows for quite a bit more customization, due to the wide variety of shoulder pads available. Chapter-specific pads, terminator honors pads, pads with the little bar or ribbon, the one with the eagle-thingy...lots of customization options there.


A PDF Codex won't be well received (at least, until all the Codices are PDFs... muahahahahah (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7edeOEuXdMU)).

Speak for yourself, ID! I know if GW had given Dark Angels the PDF treatment when Codex: Blood Angels came out, updating them the same way they updated the BAs when the DAs came out, I'd have been ecstatic.


;5114659']Loyalists also have TL-AC Dreads, Razorbacks, Sternguard Veterans (cheaper than Havocs or Devastators), Terminators with a CML, Typhoon Land Speeders, Heavy Weapons in Tactical squads, and the ability to stick HK missiles on each and every vehicle in their army. There is no shortage of reliable ranged firepower in the Vanilla book.

I'll give you the TL-AC Dreads (though you could take TLLC Dreads that are cheaper than ours) and the Typhoons. Razorbacks are generally stupid, HK missiles are 1-shot wastes of points, Sternies with heavies are a waste of good Sternies, Chaos can take cheaper Termies with reaper autocannons, and Chaos can also have heavy weapons in their tactical CSM squads, but twin special weapons are generally seen as a more advantageous configuration. The Chaos squad can't take a multimelta, but given the extreme short optimal range of that weapon, being able to take an autocannon instead is a better option. It's a little bit hypocritical to bring up Tac heavies in this regard while ignoring the CSM heavies you could be taking but don't.



;5114659']Chaos Land Raiders are no match for their loyalist counterparts. A Land Raider Crusader can fire no less than 4 different weapons on the move, and the Extra Armour + PotMS combination is by far better than Daemonic Possession. It is also worth mentioning than Assault Terminators beat basically any Chaos CC unit in terms of sheer efficiency.

The LRC makes a nice assault boat, sure, but if you're firing all those weapons, you're not really getting your embarked squad where you want it to go any faster than they could get there on foot - possibly slower in fact, because the squad on foot could run. Instead of using the LRC, you could just have the squad hoof it, buy two dakka Preds to cover them, and pay less points in the process. As for EA+PotMS being better than DP - it's arguable. The EA+PotMS allows the firing of 1 weapon when shaken. DP makes it impossible to shake the vehicle, so you can fire all weapons sitting still or 1+defensive at combat speed - not all that worse than PotMS, and situationally better. Either is just as good for keeping the LR moving and delivering cargo. The Chaos LR with DP, however, is 15pts cheaper than the loyalist LR with EA. Getting to pay less points for similar effect is unarguably better.


;5114659']Granted, I'd rather in a Rhino than walk on foot... But in order to assault out of your closed-topped transport, you need to spend an entire turn within 12' of your intended target. Chances are your transport will get blown by a Meltagun and the passengers counter-charged or shot to pieces.

And yet, players manage to pull it off. Yes, something bad might happen to the Rhino and the embarked squad. Opponents tend to like to stop transports before the transports can deliver their units, and like to bust up squads before the squads can hurt them. They're funny that way. Them trying to do that and you trying to prevent it from happening while doing it to your stuff is where tactics come in.


;5114659']Tactical Marines may be expensive, but their heavy weapon allow them to engage the foe from afar. Meanwhile, in order to survive the close-ranged firefights they're designed for, Chaos Space Marines need several upgrades (dual Meltaguns, icons, aspiring champions with PW or PF...) which can quickly add up.

Seriously, it's hypocritical to bring up the Tac heavy as a big advantage loyalist players have when CSM players can do exactly the same thing, but don't because twin specials is generally regarded as a better build, particularly in mech armies. As far as price comparisons, a CSM squad with IoCG+flamer+ML+Aspiring Champ+PF costs 20pts more than an identically equipped loyalist squad, but gets the additional benefit of having bolter+bp+ccw all around - well worth 2pts per model, I think. Granted, it's smarter to use CSMs in close range firefights, as you say, but if you really think being able to potshot with a heavy from afar is so much cooler, you've got the option of doing it. Us loyalist players don't have the option of taking a second special weapon in our Tac Squads, and you can bet your boots we would if we could.


;5114659']Berserkers may be decent assault units, but they bring very little other units in the army could not do in the first place. A ten man Berserker squad can wipe out an Ork mob... But so do a Chosen squad with enough flamers, or a Vanilla CSM squad with dual flamers and a combi-flamer. Plus, Berserkers need to get the charge in order to be effective, and the lack of adequate transport vehicles hurts in that regard. Had Chaos the ability to field a relatively cheap, open-topped transport, Berserkers would be a far more competitive choice.

Now you're not even comparing assault units to assault units. That's like me saying Assault Terminators are are good, but they can't do anything Vindicators can't do. Your counter-examples don't make much sense. Also, saying Berserkers need to charge in order to be effective is kind of like saying your counter-examples need to shoot in order to be effective. Of course it's true, and if an opponent manages to deny the charge to Zerks, they're much less dangerous than they would be - but on the other hand if an opponent locks up your Chosen or flamer-toting CSMs in assault, their flamers aren't doing them any good, either. Even not charging, Zerks have 3 attacks standing still at WS5. That does not suck, not even a little bit. Standing still, they can do more damage than an equivalent-sized SM Assault Squad. Charging, they'll eat an equivalent sized SM Assault Squad for breakfast.

As for a cheap, open topped transport...I was about to write "Loyalists don't even have one of those", then I remembered Storms. Storms, however, can only carry Scouts, and take a FOC slot besides. It's not like we can throw whatever the heck we want in them.


Giving them an open topped transport is a little OP. I think they should run about 19-20 pts. Considering Death Company are only 20 have the same stats, access to more weaponry and they have FnP.

But don't score. Don't forget that. DC are amazing, but can't claim an objective. Zerks can. That is a major consideration.

Kalishnikov-47
13-11-2010, 05:47
But don't score. Don't forget that. DC are amazing, but can't claim an objective. Zerks can. That is a major consideration.

DC also have access to more transports and better equipment. So they are one the whole, more mobile then Khorne Berzerkers. Plus if I table you, I do not need to score.

I agree, the main drawback of DC is their inability to score and the fact that once they are out of the transport, they are utter maniacs, which requires you to screen them from the enemy with a transport, or let them run frothing mad.

However, for all of their inherent downfalls I still prefer them over Khorne Berzerkers.

Charistoph
13-11-2010, 05:51
What about a Rhino with a Land Raider's Assault Ramp? Dreadclaws with Assault Ramps? Bah, that's wishlisting.

If the other 5th Edition Codecies are any indication, though, the next Chaos Codex will be 3 ways broken and over-powered as they overcompensate for all the complaints registered from the last attempt.

Hmm... I'd better get started on my Legion of the Setting Eye, then, so I'm not seen as a band-wagoner...

Draconis
13-11-2010, 05:52
Sure, our dreads might be cheaper, we also can't take venerable and have a 1/3 chance of doing something we dont want them to do. Every turn.

Imperialis_Dominatus
13-11-2010, 05:57
I'm of the belief that a tabula rasa would be the ideal approach for all factions - indeed for the entire 40K imagery.

All the bits and bobs that have evolved over the last 25 years or so can be weighed for quality then either discarded or melded together, with creases ironed out, fudged ambiguity re-worked into some genuine mystery and an even more consistent storyline and theme for each of the factions.

Yeah dude. If they'd pay me and a select team of fluff-goose-steppers to go through it I'd totally be down. Hell, if they'd give me food I'd do it. Food and a copier, scissors, and paste. And a red pen.

...

Of doom.


Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Big focus on the legions, limited daemon engine, daemon or cultist support.

Codex: Lost and the Damned. Total freakshow mashup with guard, mutant, renegade CSM and many daemonic engine elements.

Codex: Daemons. Many more "unbound" daemon engines as variants of the "bound" varieties in the above.

Same.


A simple "Saga" system for the Lords where by paying x amount of points your army gains x rule. Would take maybe 2 pages to list all 9 legions. Or go all out and give each legion 2 or 3 rules per "Saga".

Yeah, more or less the tack I took.


Speak for yourself, ID! I know if GW had given Dark Angels the PDF treatment when Codex: Blood Angels came out, updating them the same way they updated the BAs when the DAs came out, I'd have been ecstatic.

I'm not speaking for myself. I'm speaking in speculation of how the community would react to PDF Codices. I'd be psyked, dude. However, I can smell the fire in the streets and hear the terrible scream of the mob, is all.

Setesh
13-11-2010, 14:50
I've been playing chaos since 2nd ed. 2010 was the year where I gave up struggling to play a list that was fluffy while not boring and completely useless. Since the current afterbirth codex I've tried the following:

World Eaters list: Painted beautifully, but sod all options so turned out as just berzerkers in rhinos and nothing else. Berzerkers are also now no longer scary in assault compared to other armies' assault troops. THAT is heresy. Utterly boring. Necrons have more variance.

Thousand Sons: Despite supposedly being the masters of sorcery their psykers are now laughable compared to even standard librarians. Their enchanted bolters are pointless with the cover rules.

Death Guard: Remember when blight grenades remained on the board like spore mines? I remember when CSM had interesting and fun rules. I got on the best with these guys because they still play okay and just about hold on to what their original abilities were supposed to be with FnP

Renegades: There is no need for any emphasis on these in the book. If people want to make their own renegades all they need is the standard chaos marine statline and a paragraph about renegades, not a whole book. The whole point is that you're supposed to make it up yourself if you want to go that route, why nerf the legions for the sake of this?

I play Tyranids now because I feel I can represent them in a fun and fluffy way since their new codex. Swarm lists are finally viable again, and there are some fun options to be had in customisation. Despite my love of chaos I won't be running khorne berzerkers inexplicably holding hands with emperors children or a khorne list that has a lash sorcerer in it only because its effective.
I die a little inside when I see this, or a daemon army with every single power present. Might as well forget all the individual powers and just have one chaos god for all the sense the daemon & CSM codices make right now.

I think in general the necrons NEED a codex overhaul the most simply because they were never really developed enough originally and suffer from ageing rules, but to be fair, guys.. I thought CSM was the second most popular product line after regular space marines? Surely this alone should mean they should get a bit more attention from the developers?

/rant over

Badger[Fr]
13-11-2010, 22:29
I'll give you the TL-AC Dreads (though you could take TLLC Dreads that are cheaper than ours) and the Typhoons. Razorbacks are generally stupid, HK missiles are 1-shot wastes of points, Sternies with heavies are a waste of good Sternies, Chaos can take cheaper Termies with reaper autocannons, and Chaos can also have heavy weapons in their tactical CSM squads, but twin special weapons are generally seen as a more advantageous configuration. The Chaos squad can't take a multimelta, but given the extreme short optimal range of that weapon, being able to take an autocannon instead is a better option. It's a little bit hypocritical to bring up Tac heavies in this regard while ignoring the CSM heavies you could be taking but don't.
Razorbacks are... stupid? It's a joke, right? The ability to field the most heavily armed dedicated transport in the entire game is a significant advantage, and a staple of many competitive SM builds. Two PG+CL Razorbacks are nearly as expensive as a 5 man Havoc squad with 3 ML or two Obliterators, but nonetheless superior in terms of sheer fire power and durability. They also do not even take a FoC slot, and can be used as transports as well.

HK missiles are also a fine upgrade, as they increase the already strong alpha-strike potential of an SM army. Lascannon-toting Sternies may be expensive, but still, the ability to field two additional heavy weapons out of the HS slot may be useful.

The Reaper Autocannon is pathetic. I really fail to see how a twin-linked AC can compare to a Cyclone Missile Launcher that is S8 and has twice the range, yet is barely more expensive. And I'd rather have a MM (whose range is not an issue, as Tactical Marines are meant to control the mid-field anyway) than a single AC.

Oh, and let's not mention the several fast, Meltagun-toting units available in the FA slot. By then, it should be quite obvious that if there is something loyalist marines do not lack, it is ranged, reliable, anti-vehicle fire power.


The LRC makes a nice assault boat, sure, but if you're firing all those weapons, you're not really getting your embarked squad where you want it to go any faster than they could get there on foot - possibly slower in fact, because the squad on foot could run.
But the Land Raider passengers won't spend the entire game inside. While Chaos and SM Land Raiders are roughly similar in terms of transport abilities (the additional passenger capacity provided by the loyalist version is situational), the later by far outperforms the former as a mobile gunboat. I'd take a BS 4, TL, Assault Cannon, a BS4 MM, and 6 Bolters over a single BS3 TL Lascannon anytime.


Seriously, it's hypocritical to bring up the Tac heavy as a big advantage loyalist players have when CSM players can do exactly the same thing, but don't because twin specials is generally regarded as a better build, particularly in mech armies. As far as price comparisons, a CSM squad with IoCG+flamer+ML+Aspiring Champ+PF costs 20pts more than an identically equipped loyalist squad, but gets the additional benefit of having bolter+bp+ccw all around - well worth 2pts per model, I think. Granted, it's smarter to use CSMs in close range firefights, as you say, but if you really think being able to potshot with a heavy from afar is so much cooler, you've got the option of doing it. Us loyalist players don't have the option of taking a second special weapon in our Tac Squads, and you can bet your boots we would if we could.
Twin special weapons are overrated. Rhino rushing MEQ squads in rapid fire and counter charge range of an entire army is never a good idea. I, for one, enjoy the versatility the reliable MM provides. While Tactical Marines do have flaws, their mandatory heavy weapon certainly isn't one of them.


Now you're not even comparing assault units to assault units. That's like me saying Assault Terminators are are good, but they can't do anything Vindicators can't do. Your counter-examples don't make much sense. Also, saying Berserkers need to charge in order to be effective is kind of like saying your counter-examples need to shoot in order to be effective. Of course it's true, and if an opponent manages to deny the charge to Zerks, they're much less dangerous than they would be - but on the other hand if an opponent locks up your Chosen or flamer-toting CSMs in assault, their flamers aren't doing them any good, either. Even not charging, Zerks have 3 attacks standing still at WS5. That does not suck, not even a little bit. Standing still, they can do more damage than an equivalent-sized SM Assault Squad. Charging, they'll eat an equivalent sized SM Assault Squad for breakfast.
You can't deny it's much easier to shoot an enemy from afar than to make one's way through the battlefield unharmed and charge an opponent. The Berzerkers lack the sheer manoeuvrability needed to avoid being delayed by movement blocking, screening, and the wide spread use of transports. They're not bad per se, but they do very little to mitigate the Chaos army's gaping flaws.



As for a cheap, open topped transport...I was about to write "Loyalists don't even have one of those", then I remembered Storms. Storms, however, can only carry Scouts, and take a FOC slot besides. It's not like we can throw whatever the heck we want in them.
Loyalist Marines do not, however, rely on short ranged fire fights and CC.

Grand Master Raziel
14-11-2010, 04:00
;5117497']Razorbacks are... stupid? It's a joke, right? The ability to field the most heavily armed dedicated transport in the entire game is a significant advantage, and a staple of many competitive SM builds. Two PG+CL Razorbacks are nearly as expensive as a 5 man Havoc squad with 3 ML or two Obliterators, but nonetheless superior in terms of sheer fire power and durability. They also do not even take a FoC slot, and can be used as transports as well.

Razorbacks are only attractive on paper. Actually taking them in army lists is committing you to either taking small units that are going to be easy to destroy, or combat-squadding, which is little more than taking a full sized unit that's reasonably durable and breaking it up into small units that are easy to destroy. You're also giving up the Rhino's fire point, which I'd rather have than an overpriced heavy weapon turret that's going to make my transports an even higher-priority target than they already are. I like to try and draw my opponents into shooting at things other than my transports, which isn't served by hanging big "Shoot Me!" signs on them. Plus, who cares if something does or does not take FoC slots if it's costing me points? I haven't come close to filling an FOC in one reasonably-sized list since I stopped playing 3rd edition SM gunlines. Those Razorbacks you're so impressed with cost more than double the points and don't do an adequate job of transporting the units I'd be wanting them to transport. Hence "stupid". I actually thing Chaos players are better off with the Havoc Launcher they can slap on their Rhinos. Not an anti-vehicle weapon to be true, but it gives them a respectable amount of anti-infantry firepower, and they're not giving up transport space or the firing point to get it.


;5117497']HK missiles are also a fine upgrade, as they increase the already strong alpha-strike potential of an SM army. Lascannon-toting Sternies may be expensive, but still, the ability to field two additional heavy weapons out of the HS slot may be useful.

Why? As a loyalist player, what the hell else am I going to field in the HS slot? Devs suffer from being overly expensive (they might be worthwhile with autocannons, but not with what they currently pack), Vindicators suffer from being subject to being totally neutered with one Weapon Destroyed result, Land Raiders of all types are Lance bait (and Lances seem to be slowly proliferating through the system), and Thunderfires are thematically inappropriate and too easy to take out. As I see it, Preds are about the only investment that stand any chance of being worth the points I put into them. If I were going to put points into lascannons in the Elite slot, I'd have Dreads carry them - Dreads help with armor saturation and can at least move and fire the things


;5117497']The Reaper Autocannon is pathetic. I really fail to see how a twin-linked AC can compare to a Cyclone Missile Launcher that is S8 and has twice the range, yet is barely more expensive. And I'd rather have a MM (whose range is not an issue, as Tactical Marines are meant to control the mid-field anyway) than a single AC.

First of all, the Cyclone is not "twice the range" of the Reaper - it has a foot more range. Respectable, but the Reaper is hardly a short-ranged weapon. Second, the Cyclone's shots might be more likely to glance/pen than the Reaper's, but the Reaper's shots are more likely to hit. You can run the numbers if you want, but I'm sure the difference in performance against anything short of AV13 isn't likely to be significant. Third, Chaos Terminators can be had in squads of 3 as opposed to loyalist squads of 5, so Chaos players can get that Reaper for 115pts as opposed to 230 for the Loyalist squad with the CML. The loyalist squad is actually twice as many points as the Chaos squad! That to you qualifies as "barely more expensive"? Okay, equivalent sized squads, you're talking the Chaos squad being 55pts cheaper. Throw in a couple power fists to cover your bases drops it down to 35pts. That's still pretty significant savings - a Rhino for one of your squads, at least.



;5117497']Oh, and let's not mention the several fast, Meltagun-toting units available in the FA slot. By then, it should be quite obvious that if there is something loyalist marines do not lack, it is ranged, reliable, anti-vehicle fire power.

I never said they did. I simply objected to the assertion you made that Chaos players lacked good long-range anti-tank firepower when the fact is Chaos players have some excellent options, including what I think many would consider the single best Heavy Support unit in the game. Also, while loyalist Marines do have some good MM platforms (Tac Squads not being one of them), Chaos players are absolutely spoiled for choice for good short-ranged anti-tank platforms (Chosen, CSM Squads, Plague Marine squads, Havocs, Raptors). A lot of loyalist players (myself included) would be quite keen to have Troops choices that could tote paired meltaguns, much less Heavies that could carry four or Elites that could carry five! However, we don't go around pretending we're hard-done-by just because we don't have them and Chaos does.


;5117497'] But the Land Raider passengers won't spend the entire game inside. While Chaos and SM Land Raiders are roughly similar in terms of transport abilities (the additional passenger capacity provided by the loyalist version is situational), the later by far outperforms the former as a mobile gunboat. I'd take a BS 4, TL, Assault Cannon, a BS4 MM, and 6 Bolters over a single BS3 TL Lascannon anytime.

What if the target is more than 30" away? What if the opponent manages to get a shaken result against the LRC? The Chaos LR can hit that further-off target without having to move, and doesn't have to sweat the shaken result.


;5117497']Twin special weapons are overrated. Rhino rushing MEQ squads in rapid fire and counter charge range of an entire army is never a good idea. I, for one, enjoy the versatility the reliable MM provides. While Tactical Marines do have flaws, their mandatory heavy weapon certainly isn't one of them.

So, what the heck do you think is going to happen to those MM-toting Tac Squads while they're hanging around in midfield? I think the opponent is going to come out and try and murder them. I, for one, would rather try to preemptively murder my opponent's stuff rather than sitting midfield and waiting for my opponent to come to me. By not having to be saddled with a heavy, the CSM Squad can stay mobile and maintain the intiative, with the unholy weapon trinity has a lot more murdering capacity than a Tac Squad, and has less need of specialized counter-charge units to babysit them. And it's still hypocritical to wax rhapsodic about the Tac Squad heavy when CSM squads are just as capable of taking heavies.


;5117497']You can't deny it's much easier to shoot an enemy from afar than to make one's way through the battlefield unharmed and charge an opponent. The Berzerkers lack the sheer manoeuvrability needed to avoid being delayed by movement blocking, screening, and the wide spread use of transports. They're not bad per se, but they do very little to mitigate the Chaos army's gaping flaws.

I would hardly call running up and dropping flame templates on a target "shooting it from afar". If you're close enough to be getting enough enemy models under the template to make the whole exercise worthwhile, you'd probably be close enough to charge the unit anyway - or only an inch or two away from being able to do so, at least. That being the case, the burnination route is fraught with exactly the same tactical difficulties as getting an assault unit in place, thus your argument is moot. Furthermore, there's a couple payoffs to getting that assault unit stuck in instead of dealing with the matter with some sort of shooting. The first is that once the assault unit is stuck in, it's completely immune to being shot at for as long as it's stuck in, whereas your hypthetical flamer-toting units are leaving themselves right up the nose of their opponent's whole army with their keisters exposed to the zephyr. The second is that the stuck-in assault unit can damage its opposing unit on its opponent's turn, as opposed to only on its player's turn, as is the case with a shooting unit. Therefore, you a return on the turns invested in getting that unit stuck in.


;5117497']Loyalist Marines do not, however, rely on short ranged fire fights and CC.

Say what? Did you not, just above, state that Loyalist Tac Squads spend all their time hanging out midfield? You don't think short-ranged firefights and assaults are going to happen in midfield? Do all of your opponents refuse to come out of their deployment zones or something? :rolleyes:

Seismic
14-11-2010, 05:18
I don't want to get involved in this battle of "The wall of text".

However if i could interject; Debating individual units/weapons/special rules is futile and no ground for productive discussion. Comparing them to one another isn't either considering all the variable involved.

That being said, where Chaos falls an others (Even DA) succeed is in its mode of organization.

Take for example loyalists Bikes; Alone ,they occupy the FA slot. You can equip them for Horde or Tank hunting. Add a Captain on Bike , and they become troops. Liberating a FA slot, and now capable of capturing objectives. Add Khan, and they can now outflank along with all you other forces.

This huge, with the addition of one HQ , bikes changes in deployment and utility. Nowhere in the Chaos book can you do this.

Changing force organisation and deployment can alter drastically tactics and strategies. Moreover it becomes accessible to a broader number of players who may not be comfortable with a specific kind of game play.

Any reboot of Chaos , if it is to be considered successful, will have to include this; Whether it is a Renegade or Legion centred release.

DuskRaider
14-11-2010, 06:50
You know, I've been thinking of something that would spruce a new Chaos Codex up some. What about Malcador Tank variants (Regular, Defender, Annihilator, Minotaur, and of course Valdor)? Take away their second SP, give them +1 Armor, and reduce their cost a bit. Keep their movement penalties for drive damage to show their age and inferior build compared to more recent STCs. It would be a great way to show Chaos uses the more ancient and archaic machines and would do great for a mixed Traitor Guard / CSM list.

Grand Master Raziel
14-11-2010, 20:35
Take for example loyalists Bikes; Alone ,they occupy the FA slot. You can equip them for Horde or Tank hunting. Add a Captain on Bike , and they become troops. Liberating a FA slot, and now capable of capturing objectives. Add Khan, and they can now outflank along with all you other forces.

This huge, with the addition of one HQ , bikes changes in deployment and utility. Nowhere in the Chaos book can you do this.


That's true. The flipside, however, is that Codex: Space Marines only has two unconditional Troops - Tacs and Scouts. Codex: Dark Angels, which you specifically mentioned, has but one - Tacs. Codex: CSM has five. I'd argue that puts CSM less in need of FOC-bending than the loyalist dexes. That said, I'd be kind of surprised if the next iteration didn't let CSMs to the bike armies, nor will I bat an eye if/when it comes to pass.

Draconis
14-11-2010, 22:06
6 Actually. But half of them you'd not use unless your playing for fluff.

blooddragon
20-11-2010, 21:34
Chaos just need a hell of a lot more options and a big, BIG step away from the loyalist structure for an army. Throw in a whole pile of unique options that are inherently CHAOS.


Two levels of Chaos Lord

A retinue for the Lord (like the Dark Eldar one) full of weird, fun mis-fits:
- A champion for each God (different wargear/stats)
- Apostle (chaos priest)
- Heretic officer (similar to Master of the Fleet from Imperial Guard codex)
- Daemonhost (random fun!)
- Machinist (servo-arm)
- Blank (negates psychic powers)

Two levels of Chaos Sorceror

Sorceror's Choir:
- 5 - 10 guard-stat models, acting as one psycher.
- Can create a cover save, act as an icon, summon daemons, cast a psychic power, amplify the sorceror's abilities etc.
- Wounds lost through perils of the warp test result in a spawn controlled by the opposing player
- Become an objective if alive at the end of the game?


Chaos Renegades (Platoon structure is a little much I think - just one large squad with heavy weapons)

Mutants (effectively a disposable speed bump with combat ability)

Fodder:
- un-armed, T2 blob unit for the sheer giggles.
- Typhus gives them FNP and slow and purposeful to be zombies


Chaos Monstrosity
- Great big spawn monstrous creature that can explode. Yes I said it. EXPLODE.




Chaos Vehicles:

Moloch:
- A bit like a razorback - small transport capacity, with a warp-fuelled cannon (plasma cannon with 6 + D3 strength, AP3). When stationary acts as an icon for summoning daemons.

Daemon Possessed Land Raider (Niberius?)

- Side-sponsons warp-fuelled cannons (as above)
- Front - warp-flamer (Strength 7 AP -)
- Mutated hull - some way of random behaviour
- Can summon daemons from any point of its hull

dragonet111
20-11-2010, 21:42
IMO every armies need the DE traitment. :D
Not all armies really need it but when you see the result of the new DE you want every armies to have it.

Nice minis
+
Nice codex
=
Happy players:D

Setesh
20-11-2010, 22:40
We should be careful about distancing them from loyalists *Too* much. Part of the appeal for some people is that they are simply 'evil' space marines. There should be unique models, but there should still be shared ones like rhinos/predators that aren't possessed/armed with warp weaponry by default. These should be upgrades.

Culgore
20-11-2010, 22:44
Fodder:
- un-armed, T2 blob unit for the sheer giggles.
- Typhus gives them FNP and slow and purposeful to be zombies

see this is the problem that I see most often. I play deathguard and would love to see plague zombies (There was a White Dwarf when the Defiler model and Typhus came out that featured cool plague zombies, if they got a hold of a unit they could return models killed to fight on as zombies) but they always end up dumb and not worth taking, at T2 with FNP they would be insta-killed by bolters. So most armies would be entirely unaffected by this unit.

Setesh
20-11-2010, 23:49
I heard there are plague zombies in imperial armour - although I don't play apocalypse so can't confirm

beeblicon
20-11-2010, 23:58
come on, it would be just mean to make chaos wait 10 years for a big nerf!

Mannimarco
21-11-2010, 00:01
I heard there are plague zombies in imperial armour - although I don't play apocalypse so can't confirm

Ill field this one folks! :D

There are plague zombies found in The Siege of Vraks part 3, they are ok rules wise and change from the "Romero type" zombie to the "28 days later" type if you take the special character "Necrosius".

They are NOT only for apocalypse, this is a very common misconception that all FW is only allowed in games of apocalypse. This is simply wrong. Ill not get into it here as that will lead us very much off topic however there are plenty of topics on this matter. Do a search for "The F Word" and "Forgeworld and tournament legality" both by me.

The Orange
21-11-2010, 00:48
Throw in a whole pile of unique options that are inherently CHAOS.
Careful what you wish for, to GW CHAOS = random = "D6 everything". Next thing you'll know you'll be rolling to see if your units even show up for battle or just give the commander the finger and walks off to the local pub. :p

The Obdurate Bureaucrat
21-11-2010, 02:36
The flipside, however, is that Codex: Space Marines only has two unconditional Troops - Tacs and Scouts. Codex: Dark Angels, which you specifically mentioned, has but one - Tacs. Codex: CSM has five. I'd argue that puts CSM less in need of FOC-bending than the loyalist dexes.

Those five Troops choices could quite easily be condensed to one - Chaos Space Marines. An interesting idea (precedent?) has appeared in Imperial Armour 9 - the Astral Claws Space Marine Cohorts in the Tyrant's Legion army list. They are fielded between 10 and 20 strong, and for every 5 Marines in the unit, one may be equipped with a special or heavy weapon, subject to certain restrictions (namely no lascannons, autocannons or plasma cannons). The background mentions specifically that Lugft Huron deliberately organised these units along the lines of the old Legions rather than the modern Chapters. The units retain the standard loyalist Marine USRs.

This could quite easily be applied to CSMs. They'd lose ATSKNF and Combat Tactics, but instead they could be Marked and have altered weapon options depending on type:
-Khorne: no Heavy Weapons, but get options for power weapons/powergloves instead.
-Slaanesh: may replace boltguns/special weapon slots with Sonic weaponry.
-Nurgle: as standard CSM choices
-Tzeentch: Inferno Bolts as normal, and may only upgrade to Heavy Bolters (also firing Inferno Bolts).
Make the Heavy Weapon choices Suspensor-equipped, and they become suitably flexible. Every 'type' of unit can be a valid choice for narrative and practical purposes. And by condensing the existing Troops choices, you make room for other, different units in Troops.

Charistoph
21-11-2010, 03:03
I think it's interesting that Noise Marines are all Slaanesh has for main Slaanesh troops. But when you look at the Daemons, their Icon/Mark, and CSM Special Character, they tend to be fast or unusual assault attributes.

While Noise Marines are cool (don't get me wrong), the cultists of Slaanesh should also have an alternative option that represents speed and elegance in combat, and pain.

Aiwass
21-11-2010, 14:23
I'm starting to get bored of reading Khorne=No heavy weapons... :rolleyes:

Mannimarco
21-11-2010, 16:24
Im more bored....nay shocked reading "theres no such thing as a khorne berserker in terminator armour or on a bike, all khorne berserkers only wear power armour all the time"

Eldrad
21-11-2010, 16:36
I like Obdurates idea, but feel it should be used more to flesh out the non cult marines. One thing I do agree with the old codex is there should be an option to make a lower tier "cult" troop. You dont say "I love Nurgle" and automatically become a Plague Marine, it takes time.

The rules should allow you to represent this and the IA9 approach seems the best. I don't feel they should be mini cults. Tzeentch could have the option of a squad psychic power or be led by an aspiring sorceror. Khorne needn't be only CC, let the Berserkers represent the pinnacle of Khorne where they can't restrain themselves except to throw themselves into CC. Use the regular CSM to further accentuate the fact that Cult marines are as deep as you can go short of becoming a DP. This also keeps the Renegade players happy as they can build an "almost damned" force.

Then simply have an individual entry for each Cult whereby adding x points puts them in Term armor,bikes etc ala WolfGuard.

Seismic
21-11-2010, 16:39
That's true. The flipside, however, is that Codex: Space Marines only has two unconditional Troops - Tacs and Scouts. Codex: Dark Angels, which you specifically mentioned, has but one - Tacs. Codex: CSM has five. I'd argue that puts CSM less in need of FOC-bending than the loyalist dexes. That said, I'd be kind of surprised if the next iteration didn't let CSMs to the bike armies, nor will I bat an eye if/when it comes to pass.


I was under the impression that DA could use Terminators & Bikes as troops with the help of Belial and ... That other guy. To be honest I haven't seen a DA list in ages, but you're missing the point: Its not about innate troop selection, its about deployment and force organization outside of troop selection.

Whether Chaos has 1 or 11 troop choice really doesn't matter if they're deployed in more or less the same fashion. Moreover other selection in the rest of force organization is more constricted if they have to sync with your troop options.

What impairs chaos lists from deviating from the nauseating -2prince ,combi-plasma Terms , Plagues/Zerkers , Oblits and/or defilers- Is that your deployment is confined to being field directly or through deep strikes , And point for points some options stand out more in particular Force organization which renders others redundant.

Because you're building your list from a default 2 troops in rhino (or on foot i guess), and because they won't have access to Alpha strikes ,Outflanks , Scout movement and so on , you're basic strategy will revolved around a narrow play style. And since Units have to compete for utility in a single FoC and only under a limited play style, some will inevitably overshadow others.

How different would it be if , for instance, Chosen or Possessed would be scoring or troops even. What if Dreadnoughts could be taken in FA ? And I'll go a step further and say that similar problem in other *cough Nids cough* codices could have been avoided in the much the same fashion.

Setesh
21-11-2010, 18:40
I want to see teeth of khorne devastators but I'm pretty confident the developers will never let us have them again.

Aiwass
21-11-2010, 20:02
@Mannimarco, no I'm more bored! :shifty:


nay shocked reading "theres no such thing as a khorne berserker in terminator armour or on a bike, all khorne berserkers only wear power armour all the time"
^QFT


I like Obdurates idea, but feel it should be used more to flesh out the non cult marines. One thing I do agree with the old codex is there should be an option to make a lower tier "cult" troop. You dont say "I love Nurgle" and automatically become a Plague Marine, it takes time.

The rules should allow you to represent this and the IA9 approach seems the best. I don't feel they should be mini cults. Tzeentch could have the option of a squad psychic power or be led by an aspiring sorceror. Khorne needn't be only CC, let the Berserkers represent the pinnacle of Khorne where they can't restrain themselves except to throw themselves into CC. Use the regular CSM to further accentuate the fact that Cult marines are as deep as you can go short of becoming a DP. This also keeps the Renegade players happy as they can build an "almost damned" force.

Then simply have an individual entry for each Cult whereby adding x points puts them in Term armor,bikes etc ala WolfGuard.

Completely agreed.

@Setesh, sadly... But also we can dream and, like we say in my country "hope is the last thing you lose"... (also we say "hope is a green dressed whore" btw).

daemonicemission
22-11-2010, 05:17
After listening to the DE videos I began to realize that Chaos needs a restructuring from the bottom up of the whole thought process etc.

Yes. This. In general.

Logan_uc
22-11-2010, 11:55
they only need to forget that 4th ever existed, if they do the work taking 3.5ed as the last chaos codex things should work fine (3.5 wasn't a example of balance but had great flavour)

If you add phil kelly as a writer and get a restraint order for mat ward it would be great.

also never forget that our codex has to be enjoyable for others to, so I hope they don't go over the top with it.

Aiwass
22-11-2010, 12:31
Yeah, but... I want Cult bikers, termies and so on, also the Teeth of Khorne, dreadclaws, Bloodslaughterers, Blight drones... And for good sake, reliable dreads!

Also I want daemons out of our codex! I happily switch the daemons for an ancient pattern landspeeder or LR :)

EDIT: Also techmarines, chaplains and apothecaries, because the CSM actually have those guys and they need to be avaiable in our armies.

Logan_uc
22-11-2010, 13:17
Yeah, but... I want Cult bikers, termies and so on, also the Teeth of Khorne, dreadclaws, Bloodslaughterers, Blight drones... And for good sake, reliable dreads!

Also I want daemons out of our codex! I happily switch the daemons for an ancient pattern landspeeder or LR :)

EDIT: Also techmarines, chaplains and apothecaries, because the CSM actually have those guys and they need to be avaiable in our armies.

so you want spiky marines with more options:eyebrows:

I want Marks back to, but I also want a unique army that goes even further away from normal marines, we lose some things and gain others, as long as we don't lose flavour we can pass some thing for the sake of not having a obnoxious codex.

only WB have chaplains, and even loyal marines have normally few apothecaries and techmarines, Chaos marine make use of non marine personnel to do does jobs so I imagine that seeing one in would be very very uncommon.

Lord Inquisitor
22-11-2010, 13:38
How different would it be if , for instance, Chosen or Possessed would be scoring or troops even. What if Dreadnoughts could be taken in FA ? And I'll go a step further and say that similar problem in other *cough Nids cough* codices could have been avoided in the much the same fashion.

Chaos already have more Troops choices than most armies and I don't know it'd help to throw more in there. Chosen and Possessed should remain elites.

Chosen and Possessed need a power up to stand out as elites in an army of superb and specialised Troops. Chosen need at a minimum 2 attacks each, WS5 (maybe 6!). They should have access to a variety of veteran skills. They should be a unit that really do feel like a unit of 10,000-year old veterans, each like a mini hero. Possessed need off-the-wall combat power, the randomness is fine but you need to ensure whatever you roll they are different and superior to the Khorne Bezerkers in combat. I suspect these will come to pass (WFB has WS6 chosen with a free EotG roll) and indeed I wouldn't be surprised if some form of EotG made its way into C:CSM. The question is whether this will be reasonably costed - Stormtroopers and Ogryns both got a significant boost in power and then were so horrifically overcosted that noone actually uses them.

Likewise, I don't know any Chaos players that actually fill all their Elite slots (often they use none). I don't think making Dreadnoughts FA is going to be any more attractive. Besides, the FA choices themselves should be made more attractive (and there is certainly space there for some new choices like some fast daemon engines).

Aiwass
22-11-2010, 13:40
I actually don't have (even want) spiky marines :p

Sureshot05
22-11-2010, 14:04
Why all this get the daemons out of CSMs?

Personally it is one of the best bits of the force to me. Summoning daemons and the image of the champion rising and a bloodthirster coming forth are among the few things that make them distinctive from Marines. If these were taken out, it reduces CSM to another divergent chapter in effect (possessed take the spot of sanguinus guard, defiler is the unique dread).

Really, it is more in need of the the figure line being redone, a few new options being added to the codex and a much better sense of balance being done about the whole affair.

As to the original point, CSM cannot be done as a DE. There is too much established mythos. The Dark Eldar were a huge blank canvas that were reworked from the ground up and now look stunning because of this development. CSM need a redo, but not in the sense of the DE version.

ashc
22-11-2010, 15:48
I want more daemonic things. I don't think it should be pure daemonic though, thats for the Chaos Daemons book. I want to see more daemonically-fused nightmare engines and weaponry such as the Kai gun.

Draconis
22-11-2010, 16:05
Exactly. Imagine playing Word Bearers but then not having daemons to call upon....wouldn't make much sense would it? There needs to be a distinct difference between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines. And thats pretty simple, we are trading the new tech for daemonic influences and magic. Thats the way it should stay.

Havarel
22-11-2010, 17:31
Likewise, I don't know any Chaos players that actually fill all their Elite slots (often they use none).

Really? I never leave home without Chaos Terminators. Icon network + deepstriking with combi-weapons = pain. I think they are great units; far better than loyalist termies anyway.

Lord Inquisitor
22-11-2010, 18:21
I want more daemonic things. I don't think it should be pure daemonic though, thats for the Chaos Daemons book. I want to see more daemonically-fused nightmare engines and weaponry such as the Kai gun.
I agree - I don't think unbound daemons should be a big part of the CSM book. The Chaos Marines should trap, bind and abuse the daemons for their own ends. The daemons are not allies or partners they are vicious entities, forces of unnature to use against the enemies of the Chaos Lords. They should be tortured and enslaved ... and vengeful. I'd like to see far more of this. Much more focus on possessed, daemon weapons and most of all daemon engines - daemon engines really let you push the boat out and get away from space marine vehicles with spikes on them, they represent the painfully bound daemons better and you could even add a little something to represent their desire to wreak vengeance if freed from their metal prisons. THAT'S what it should be about. And lesser daemons should still be there, but faceless generic lesser daemons actually works better as warp-filth summoned by the CSM as disposable shock troops than marking each "flavour" of daemon like they have character or the CSM care about them.


Really? I never leave home without Chaos Terminators. Icon network + deepstriking with combi-weapons = pain. I think they are great units; far better than loyalist termies anyway.
Oh, I don't disagree, and especially in big games I do fill my own elite choices (2 deep-striking terminator units and 1 chosen) and I never roll out without at least one unit of terminators but this is not something I see in the tournament lists of others.

In any case, the absence of Dreadnoughts on the table has nothing to do with the slot they're in. If they weren't a total liability then they'd easily find a space in the Elite choices. At 1850 I usually use only 1-2 of my Elites ... if Dreadnoughts rocked or even weren't so homicidal to my own side that given a choice of a free Dreadnought I'd probably decline, then you'd see them in the army.

ashc
22-11-2010, 20:14
There needs to be a distinct difference between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines. And thats pretty simple, we are trading the new tech for daemonic influences and magic. Thats the way it should stay.

Precisely. This is what Chaos Marines need to distance themselves from spiked marine syndrome.


I agree - I don't think unbound daemons should be a big part of the CSM book. The Chaos Marines should trap, bind and abuse the daemons for their own ends. The daemons are not allies or partners they are vicious entities, forces of unnature to use against the enemies of the Chaos Lords. They should be tortured and enslaved ... and vengeful. I'd like to see far more of this. Much more focus on possessed, daemon weapons and most of all daemon engines - daemon engines really let you push the boat out and get away from space marine vehicles with spikes on them, they represent the painfully bound daemons better and you could even add a little something to represent their desire to wreak vengeance if freed from their metal prisons. THAT'S what it should be about. And lesser daemons should still be there, but faceless generic lesser daemons actually works better as warp-filth summoned by the CSM as disposable shock troops than marking each "flavour" of daemon like they have character or the CSM care about them.


It's nice to see others agree with my view, and I am not the only one out there... :)

Seismic
22-11-2010, 21:42
Chaos already have more Troops choices than most armies and I don't know it'd help to throw more in there. Chosen and Possessed should remain elites.

Again , and I don't know why this is so hard to understand, the number of troops is irrelevant insofar as they're deployed in more or less the same fashion. With , for example , chosen as troops , it becomes far easier to build a "fluff' Alpha legion (Or splinter group) list. Moreover it plays differently, same as a bike list or a terminator list and so on, and that's what's important

The point is not to have more "troop" options , but more deployment and FoC option. Its the only way (I think) to develop a proper codex. Its blatantly clear from the recently releases, that this seems to be how players judge failed or successful codices.


Likewise, I don't know any Chaos players that actually fill all their Elite slots (often they use none). I don't think making Dreadnoughts FA is going to be any more attractive. Besides, the FA choices themselves should be made more attractive (and there is certainly space there for some new choices like some fast daemon engines).

I see landraider spam list with 3 Terms + a dedicated Landraider as the only alternative to the 2 prince + Plagues in my neck of the woods. And to me the idea of fielding 6 dreads for 600 points is actually interesting :seeing how you can equip them to minimise the damage to Armour and keep them at close distance of one an other. With the rest of the points in Cc defilers and troops , you end up with a decent daemon engine list in my opinion.

As side note , i find it fascinating that you seem to both praise and lament the codex. Its both the best but no one uses Elites , Fast attack isn't interesting , HQ is limited. With only a bloated Troop and Heavy support to build upon.

boogle
22-11-2010, 23:23
for me, the key things are:
Do they want the Codex to focus on Renegades or Legions? if it's Renegades, then do away with the marks and cult forces in this codex with the exception of maybe the Lord/Sorcerer having a mark and the elites section (Termies or Chosen taking marks), note these would be marks and not Icons give 'Marks Lite' as we have currently, the renegade would also cover Black Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, keep all other units, add cultists and maybe beastmen as choices somewhere, and maybe a couple of generic Daemon Engines.

for me the Codex could look something like this:
HQ:
Abbaddon - could make Chosen or Termies troops (the speartip)
Huron - not sure what he could add to the FOC in terms of changes
Fabius - make him make his army more monsterous
Warsmith SC - ala the Master of the Forge, maybe allow Olits to be Troops
Raptor Lord (represents Night Lords) - Allows Raptors as Troops
Daemon Prince - make him a Souped up Lord, give him plenty of options and viable ones, possibly have a Special Character Prince
Lord - Generic, ala Captain/Chapter Master (if Chapter Master, then maybe some form of Retinue), and also the option to make a Demagogue for the Word Bearers)
Sorcerer Lord - make all psychic powers viable, and interesting

Elites
Terminators (with the option of taking post Heresy options, but it would cost more and perhaps marks)
Chosen (something along the lines of a pseudo Sternguard choice, allow them a choice of USRs to represent their skills over the millennia, plus potentially Marks)
Obliterators - not sure what to do to make them less of a no-brainerm, maybe have an Oblit SC there
Dreadnought - THIS is the unit that needs the most significant overhaul both in terms of model (it's at least 14-15 years old now) and in game rules, as currently it's a poor choice, not sure if getting rid of Fire frenzy is the ultimate answer, maybe taking units of them might make them more desirable with the right tweaking.
Mutants - something ala the Grotesques from DE (adds to the LOTD aspect of the army)


Troops
CSM Squads - the large squad sizes are fine, allow them to carry up to 4 Special or Heavy Weapons if they max out at squad size 20
Cultists - cannon fodder units, would fit well with Word Bearers and Alpha Legion Armies
Daemons - don't know whether generic Daemons should stay or whether the cult Daemons should be allowed, also keep them outside the FOC

Fast Attack
Bikers
Raptors, maybe make them more like Vanguard and less like Tactical Jump Packers, possibly a NL upgrade Character
Beastmen - a moderate fodder unit, give them Fleet to make them a bit faster, maybe some minor mutations (Scaly skin to up their armour save, something along the lines of the bits in the EOT codex)
Spawn - allow them the option to actually upgrade to have armour saves, that way their toughess will count for something
Daemonic Beasts - do they fit?
Minor Daemon Engine Squadron - something that's a bit less than a Dread, like a better version of a Killa Kan)

Heavy Support
Predator
Vindicator
Land Raider, possibly a totally Deamon Infested version as well (maybe a special character Vehicle), that sacrifices it's Transport capacity for some boosts
Havocs - not sure how to deal with these to differentiate them from SM Devastators, or Chosen (in terms of Special Weapon/ Heavy Weapon Options)
Daemon Arty - this is for those Iron Warriors, similar to the Thunderfire in premise, but maybe more Daemonic shells and possibly a sentience (thinking something like the WFB Chaos Hellcannon)

then the legions are pretty simple, 2 powers per book, 2 lists per book, more god specific choices in each list, the actual god specific daemons in there, variants of the Defiler in there, some more interesting special characters in there to flesh things out.

what do people think?

Not sure where possessed would fit , so feel free to add them wherever appropriate

Garven Dreis
23-11-2010, 00:38
Warsmith SC - ala the Master of the Forge, maybe allow Olits to be Troops


No, no, never again. I am not going back to the whole "You play Iron Warriors, therefore you must spam obliterators." This would allow an ungodly amount of Obliterators that would be decent against everything AND also count as scoring.

Although, the thought of an Obliteratorwing is actually quite tempting. This would make a killer Apocalypse formation, thats for sure.

Mannimarco
23-11-2010, 01:20
^ Agreed

What we need to try and do is play to the IWs existing fluff. Please note that Iron Warrior and Obliterator arnt interchangeable! Theres more to them than oblits or rather there should be.

Although we should move away from "marine + spikes - most of the options = Chaos" there is more justification for an IW warsmith being able to fortify terrain than a loyalist techmarine. I know GW aint gonna take anything away from the golden goose and give it to the guys who should actually have it but there it is.

AlexHolker
23-11-2010, 02:05
Although we should move away from "marine + spikes - most of the options = Chaos" there is more justification for an IW warsmith being able to fortify terrain than a loyalist techmarine. I know GW aint gonna take anything away from the golden goose and give it to the guys who should actually have it but there it is.
How about letting Iron Warriors take bunkers in Fast Attack slots? It would let you build a defensive army without letting them turn into a leafblower. You could represent them with specialised engineering vehicles designed to be deployed and dug in for this purpose.

Charistoph
23-11-2010, 03:59
Crazy idea, but what if Possessed were FA Beasts instead of Elite Infantry? Mark them Nurgle and there you go, Astartes Plague Zombies!

Lord Inquisitor
23-11-2010, 04:46
Again , and I don't know why this is so hard to understand, the number of troops is irrelevant insofar as they're deployed in more or less the same fashion. With , for example , chosen as troops , it becomes far easier to build a "fluff' Alpha legion (Or splinter group) list. Moreover it plays differently, same as a bike list or a terminator list and so on, and that's what's important

The point is not to have more "troop" options , but more deployment and FoC option. Its the only way (I think) to develop a proper codex. Its blatantly clear from the recently releases, that this seems to be how players judge failed or successful codices.
I see what you mean. Yes, I agree. Eldar, for example, were nicely made in that you could make any of the craftworlds pretty convincingly.

That said, it is very, very easy to screw this up. Nob bikers are a prime example - trying to open up new playstyles brought one of the most broken units into the game. There's no reason an Ork Nob unit need be a Troops unit. If they stayed Elites that would be fine - how many Ork players need more than three units of Nob bikers anyway? And for Speed Freak armies really Nob Bikers are STILL elites - the regular bikers should be troops, right? Yet that requires a special character. Weird.

Similarly, I've ranted about it enough but Logan Grimnar broke the Space Wolf book in that the only Troops I really see are Wolf Guard. Similarly, something that was meant to be a "fluffy" little FOC change and allow "Wolfwing" armies turned out to be a no-brainer. I have literally never played a new Space Wolf codex player without Logan and I've played dozens of different SW players. I always see wolf guard troops, rarely see grey hunters and never blood claws. When a "neat variant option" becomes the staple of the army it becomes a problem.

So yeah, an Alpha Legion special character that allowed you to take Chosen as Troops would indeed be a very cool, very fluffy way of allowing an "alpha legion doctrine". But it needs to be done carefully, particularly if we also see a huge power-up of the Chosen.


I see landraider spam list with 3 Terms + a dedicated Landraider as the only alternative to the 2 prince + Plagues in my neck of the woods.
Yeah not seen anyone else play that - I tried something similar and there's just too much melta around to make Land Raiders let alone Chaos ones worthwhile.


And to me the idea of fielding 6 dreads for 600 points is actually interesting :seeing how you can equip them to minimise the damage to Armour and keep them at close distance of one an other. With the rest of the points in Cc defilers and troops , you end up with a decent daemon engine list in my opinion.
To be honest, even with the current 'dex, 3x CC dreadnoughts, 3x Defiler and 2x Daemon Prince is a pretty fun daemonenginezilla list even as is.


As side note , i find it fascinating that you seem to both praise and lament the codex. Its both the best but no one uses Elites , Fast attack isn't interesting , HQ is limited. With only a bloated Troop and Heavy support to build upon.
Heh. Well there are several things here. I don't think it's the best codex ever, indeed, when it came out I was disappointed in several areas. I don't think it's a paragon of balance either. I do, however, think the design ethos behind it is excellent and what it needs is just tweaking and it could be a great codex. For all its flaws and warts, I think it's a better 'dex than any of the 5th ed codecies that are all unbalanced or overbloated in one manner or another. I don't like excessive special rules but that's not to say the C:CSM couldn't do with some more options and units - particularly daemon engines (as I mentioned above) and things like cult terminators and the like.

Problem is, when the usual "whining about C:CSM" thread pops up every two weeks the opinion seems to be so universally bad that I end up defending it. I'd love to have a new 'dex and there's so much I'd like to see in it... but I'm nervous - a new Cruddace job with 25 new variant units each with two unique special rules that add nothing to the actual tactics of the game would, in my opinion, be worse than what we have now.

So yeah, I both praise what this codex got right and lament what could be better - but I've a feeling we'll be seeing one step forward and one step firmly back.

Culgore
23-11-2010, 05:54
The daemons are not allies or partners they are vicious entities, forces of unnature to use against the enemies of the Chaos Lords. They should be tortured and enslaved ... and vengeful. I'd like to see far more of this. Much more focus on possessed, daemon weapons and most of all daemon engines - daemon engines really let you push the boat out and get away from space marine vehicles with spikes on them, they represent the painfully bound daemons better and you could even add a little something to represent their desire to wreak vengeance if freed from their metal prisons. THAT'S what it should be about. And lesser daemons should still be there, but faceless generic lesser daemons actually works better as warp-filth summoned by the CSM as disposable shock troops than marking each "flavour" of daemon like they have character or the CSM care about them.




So I disagree with this. I think with at least the 4 major Legions(DG,TS,EC,WE) There is no reason to think the big 4 gods have not lent their "children" to assist their favored legions. It's tough to understand that you are summoning things that are a great deal weaker than the summoners... I mean why go through the trouble. The Word Bearers love the warp, they ain't torturing warp entities, they are asking for assistance from the gods.

I know that there is the Chaos Daemon Book (I don't understand the allure, save for the unique deployment scheme) and we are supposed to "save" some flavor for that book, but there is no reason to keep the unique daemons out of a chaos SM book. Hell if you want generic ones... take furies.

avatarofportent
23-11-2010, 05:57
they need alot of new plastic models. havocs, raptors, obliterators, dreadnaught etc etc. and new berserkers and plague marines as well. maybe a new land raider variant or a stalk tank of some kind would be good. wait there is the defiler. duh.

chromedog
23-11-2010, 06:27
Yes, they need the DE treatment.

Pushed into a corner and be virtually ignored for 12 years.
No new models, no new rules, nothing but the fading hopes and dreams of the disillusioned.

Then they can be dropped from the game and the Pisceans brought back.

Codex: Fishmen. You know you want it.

Kalishnikov-47
23-11-2010, 06:33
No, no, never again. I am not going back to the whole "You play Iron Warriors, therefore you must spam obliterators." This would allow an ungodly amount of Obliterators that would be decent against everything AND also count as scoring.

Although, the thought of an Obliteratorwing is actually quite tempting. This would make a killer Apocalypse formation, thats for sure.

Would it be wrong if you chose a Warsmith and all of your units trade "The Will of Chaos" special rule for Tank Hunters?

By making a rule called "The Will of Chaos" we give something similar to combat tactics in that most infantry units will have this ability and make it easier to swap out abilities.

Iron Warriors- Tank Hunters
Alpha Legion- Scout, Move through Cover, Stealth
Night Lords- Infiltrate, some pinning aura?
Word Bearers- Stubborn

Just spitballing. It would allow us to not be forced to take Special Characters and not have to take a Chaos Lord. Basically you pay for the Legion you want. The FOC could have minor changes to reflect which Legion you choose. Ie, if you choose Word Bearers,Daemons Packs could be moved to Troops from Fast Attack. Similar to Wracks?

EDIT
I think Black Legion could have Preferred Enemy. It is not too powerful and represents how long they have been around. Otherwise, I could not think of anything for them that gave a fluffy, worthwhile bonus. I feel like the Black Legion has faced more opponents and being led by the Despoiler himself would reveal their martial perfection and since only the best warriors would be able to stay alive long enough to make it in his warband.

Baragash
23-11-2010, 09:55
^This is very close to an idea I'm homebrewing myself.

Oh, and there is an Obliteratorwing Apoc formation, I think it's in the Apoc Reloaded book.

Seismic
23-11-2010, 10:33
it needs to be done carefully, particularly if we also see a huge power-up of the Chosen.



I'm of the opinion that no matter how much you try , some build will always be held as superior to others. Whether its Nob bikerz , Vulcan or heck , even Lash + Plagues . However power listing is limited to a few people/events and , in my opinion, isn't a good point of reference for evaluating codices.

A great deal of people might forfeit some power ups in favour of Play style and aesthetics as long as its a within some reasonable bound. This is why you still see Killer Kan , Green tide list , Biker lists and Crimson fist forces with Nobz and Vulcan around.


but I'm nervous - a new Cruddace job with 25 new variant units each with two unique special rules that add nothing to the actual tactics of the game would, in my opinion, be worse than what we have now.


I totally agree. While i do prefer the 5th edition codices, its not without concern about current trends of redundant, over complicated and down right silly rules: I.E. Different rages/poison or transport capacity when default rulings would have done just fine.

Born Again
23-11-2010, 10:54
Huron - not sure what he could add to the FOC in terms of changes
Terminators (with the option of taking post Heresy options, but it would cost more and perhaps marks)


You had the answer for Huron right there in your own post. Taking him means Post-Heresy options do not cost any extra. That was one of his main drawcards in 2nd edition, anyway.

Lord Inquisitor
23-11-2010, 14:36
I'm of the opinion that no matter how much you try , some build will always be held as superior to others. Whether its Nob bikerz , Vulcan or heck , even Lash + Plagues . However power listing is limited to a few people/events and , in my opinion, isn't a good point of reference for evaluating codices.
Meh, maybe it's because I don't get many games of 40K these days outside of tournaments. But I firmly believe that if you're designing a codex it should be designed so that it is balanced enough that the hardcore powerlisters can't break it (easily). After all, you can play fluffy games with a balanced list but you can't really play competitive games with an unbalanced list.

Draconis
23-11-2010, 16:20
I'd like to see the new dex on par with the other 5th edition ones, but with the diversity of the Space Wolves dex. Which is in my opinion the best one yet. Its very diverse and has many good build possibilities.

AlphariusOmegon20
23-11-2010, 16:23
Would it be wrong if you chose a Warsmith and all of your units trade "The Will of Chaos" special rule for Tank Hunters?

By making a rule called "The Will of Chaos" we give something similar to combat tactics in that most infantry units will have this ability and make it easier to swap out abilities.

Iron Warriors- Tank Hunters
Alpha Legion- Scout, Move through Cover, Stealth
Night Lords- Infiltrate, some pinning aura?
Word Bearers- Stubborn

Just spitballing. It would allow us to not be forced to take Special Characters and not have to take a Chaos Lord. Basically you pay for the Legion you want. The FOC could have minor changes to reflect which Legion you choose. Ie, if you choose Word Bearers,Daemons Packs could be moved to Troops from Fast Attack. Similar to Wracks?

EDIT
I think Black Legion could have Preferred Enemy. It is not too powerful and represents how long they have been around. Otherwise, I could not think of anything for them that gave a fluffy, worthwhile bonus. I feel like the Black Legion has faced more opponents and being led by the Despoiler himself would reveal their martial perfection and since only the best warriors would be able to stay alive long enough to make it in his warband.

Good idea, but Alpha Legion should have Infiltrate, not the Night Lords.

Draconis
23-11-2010, 16:40
Doesnt scout confer infiltrate and outflanking?

Kalishnikov-47
23-11-2010, 16:53
Good idea, but Alpha Legion should have Infiltrate, not the Night Lords.

The reason I gave Infiltrate to Night Lords is that to me Scout is a better USR to have for the Alpha Legion. The reasoning behind it being you can outflank, and you get a free move at the beginning of the game as you spring your trap. Infiltrate never seems to be beneficiary unless you outflank. If you were to have your whole army be 18" on the start of the game I am sure that would be good. Until then I think Scout is better for what you want. A free 12" move with a Rhino is better than having to be out of a transport 18" away from the enemy.

Not to mention how fluffy does that sound? I mean the Alpha Legion are notorious for stealing, re purposing, and repainting the enemies vehicles. So the Scout move would just be like the enemy realizing you for what you are and then the game begins.

Otherwise if you would rather have Infiltrate, I could give that too you :)

Draconis
23-11-2010, 18:02
Omg! That just gave me a great idea. I'm going to paint up a chaos rhino like my opponents Black Templar chapter as camo. Then when they disgorge chaos space marines, the trap is sprung.