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The Grim
09-11-2010, 08:41
After reading through the luminous thread of " Which army do you hate facing the most?" aka "How to set racial hatred in 3 steps", I read that a lot of people hated "gunlines" and more specifically dwarven ones. However I realised that the meaning of a gunline is extremely vague and I wanted to know how you would define it.

Vishok
09-11-2010, 09:09
A gunline is an army that is designed to fight in a certain way. Sitting on the edge of the table is usually only an option if there's no terrain on the table, or like 1 woods, a hill and a building. It's not predicated on artificial points levels, just how it works. You can do it with all kinds of stuff, and your gunline units may not be in the majority.

theunwantedbeing
09-11-2010, 09:49
Percentage of the army spent in ranged troops doesn't always represent what a gunline is.

An extreme example is a chaos army where every model has a ranged weapon, none are a hellcannon though. That's a very poor gunline, but has spent 100% of its points in troops with ranged weapons.

An opposite is an Empire Mortar line. 6 Mortars is a piddly 450pts, which is on a 3k list, your looking at less than 1/6th the points spent and yet he's got six 5" templates.

Swap those mortars for say...six elven bolt throwers and your not looking to be doing anything like the damage they will despite spending a full third again in points by comparison.

As Vishok stated quite correctly, a gunline is just the way the army fights.
You do't need to have spent all that many points in ranged firepower to have one either, provided you've spent them correctly and bought the cheapest options.

xxRavenxx
09-11-2010, 10:57
My mantra, is that if you/your opponent feels that they are not reaching you with enough men to actually stand a chance of fighting you and winning, you're a gunline.

Be it hellcannons, mortars, or a lot of dwarves.

WarmbloodedLizard
09-11-2010, 11:05
I'd say both more than 33% and how the army plays. of course there is much variation in BS/high strength/point efficiency which also plays into this. In addition to that, the range of the weapons is also quite important. if all shooting has a range of 12 or 18, I wouldn't call it a gunline even when 100% of the models can shoot.

e.g. Thunderers, Stone Throwers, or RxBs are much, much worse than HE Archers, bolthrowers, or skinks.

Snake1311
09-11-2010, 11:12
The 'sitting on the edge of the board' is a somewhat flawed arguement. If there are two chaos warriors armies facing each other, one of them has a hellcannon and the other doesn't, the one with the hellcannon will sit on their side and wait for the other one - and they are hardly a gunline.

theunwantedbeing
09-11-2010, 11:16
e.g. Thunderers, Stone Throwers, or RxBs are much, much worse than HE Archers, bolthrowers, or skinks.

I find RXB's tend to be much less effective than people claim them to be.
Hitting on a 5+ at 12-24" isn't overly amazing when a longbow can hit on a 4+ at 15-30" easily enough.
The armour piercing modifier is only really noticable against 2+ save cavalry.

Could just be my abysmal rolling of course....

Novrain
09-11-2010, 11:57
*Goes away and grumbles into his beard and ale about all these "combat-lines", "magic-lines" and "Oh-****-I'm-Woodelves-lines"*


Guys, every army, bar none, has a counter to gunlines. Just break out of your ruts and use some of them? Learn to adapt to the guy that runs an empire mortar 'n' cannon-fest, and stop bitching so bad.

PeG
09-11-2010, 12:10
I would say that a gunline is a list that is written with the purpose of shooting your enemy to death rather then facing them in hand to hand combat against them. If this can be achieved with 20% or 80% of your point limit isnt a factor.

If you have 1 shooting unit and your opponent 0 and you decide to sit back and shoot for a couple of turns it is hardly a gunline.

kyussinchains
09-11-2010, 12:43
I find RXB's tend to be much less effective than people claim them to be.
Hitting on a 5+ at 12-24" isn't overly amazing when a longbow can hit on a 4+ at 15-30" easily enough.
The armour piercing modifier is only really noticable against 2+ save cavalry.

Could just be my abysmal rolling of course....


although your argument about range is valid, RxB's have a higher chance of scoring a hit with multiple shots (2 dice, needing 5's to hit, gives a chance of at least one hitting of 5/9 which is better than 1/2)... and sometimes you get lucky and get two hits.....

the main power I feel with RxB (in 7th edition anyway) came from units of shades, lots of BS5 troops hidden in a wood near your army was quite nasty.... I certainly had a lot of success with them used that way, and the armour piercing helps out a great deal against 5+ save troops, all of a sudden you double your kill rate....

WarmbloodedLizard
09-11-2010, 12:48
I find RXB's tend to be much less effective than people claim them to be.
Hitting on a 5+ at 12-24" isn't overly amazing when a longbow can hit on a 4+ at 15-30" easily enough.
The armour piercing modifier is only really noticable against 2+ save cavalry.


yeah, but while you get 20 shots with AP, the longbow has 10 without AP. That gives you about twice the efficiency at slightly lower cost. they are very cost efficient.

Tregar
09-11-2010, 13:43
Also there's the superficial side to it- sitting through someone rolling 100+ dice for their RXB shooting attacks every turn might not destroy your army- but it can bore the hell out of you.

GuyLeCheval
09-11-2010, 13:46
*Goes away and grumbles into his beard and ale about all these "combat-lines", "magic-lines" and "Oh-****-I'm-Woodelves-lines"*


Guys, every army, bar none, has a counter to gunlines. Just break out of your ruts and use some of them? Learn to adapt to the guy that runs an empire mortar 'n' cannon-fest, and stop bitching so bad.

You don't understand the point. Yes, I am sure you can win, but it's about the fun if seemingly being the only one on the table who tries, while the other player just uses point-n-click and once you arrive, flank charges you.

theorox
09-11-2010, 13:56
I define it as an army that has no to very few combattroops and lots of shooting, and wich is static and tries to win through blasting the crap out of the enemy and denying the enemy victorypoints.

If all those can be used to descibe the army, it's a gunline. :)

Theo

Nuada
09-11-2010, 15:32
I've faced a few gunlines over the years. My dwarf opponent took a maxed organ gun, lots of xbows, thunderers, 4 bolt throwers and Thorek for the first two years i played against him.

They're ok for a change of pace, but they can become predictable to play against. I think most peoples gripe with them is they seem to require very few tactics to use ....apart from .."who do i shoot at first?"

Novrain
09-11-2010, 15:43
few tactics to use ....apart from .."who do i shoot at first?"

You mean like all the tactics combat focused armies use? Oh, apart from "who do I charge first?"

theunwantedbeing
09-11-2010, 16:25
You mean like all the tactics combat focused armies use? Oh, apart from "who do I charge first?"

In fairness, combat armies need to think about whether or not they'll win the ensuing combat, where they will end out if they do win, and so forth.
Similarly, how best to not get shot up and if they also have no magic how they're going to incorporate another phase into the game to quell the boredom they undoubtedly suffer from by taking a combat army :P

Gunlines don't have that secondary issue.

Malorian
09-11-2010, 17:57
At first I was going to say more than 50%, but I think it goes higher than that because if I saw an empire army with 60% shooting and 40% combat I would still call that mixed.

Once you get to 75% though you are a gunline player for sure.

Novrain
09-11-2010, 18:10
In fairness, combat armies need to think about whether or not they'll win the ensuing combat, where they will end out if they do win, and so forth.
Similarly, how best to not get shot up and if they also have no magic how they're going to incorporate another phase into the game to quell the boredom they undoubtedly suffer from by taking a combat army :P

Gunlines don't have that secondary issue.

Dont gunlines have to consider whether they will be in range of the target, to pick the best target for the models weapon choice, evaluate the target-priority of the enemy army, figure out how best to try and survive the enevitable combats, where the enemy units will go once they beat the gunline in combat / panic off from shooting.

Similarily gunlines have to figure out a way to stop all the whining that occurs when combat orientated armies get shot at by non-combat orientated ones.

AMWOOD co
09-11-2010, 18:28
I would say it's about style of play. I've fielded what I call the goblin gunline. Units of night goblins, most points are thrown into combat units (spears or not, but definately shields) with large numbers, nets, full command and the Black Orc characters that accompany them.

The catch is that I will field a dozen fanatics and 7 or more artillery pieces at only 2000 pts. Add a Lvl 4 shaman and the 'Itty Ring and I'm content to get close enough for the fanatics to deal damage then wait for you to try to charge through them.

I win by shooting up my enemy's combat units with Rock Lobbas and Spear Chukkas, make them not want to charge with a buttload of fanatics, and finish off what's left with Goblins and Black Orc Big Bosses. If that isn't a gunline, what is?

Gaargod
09-11-2010, 18:57
Dont gunlines have to consider whether they will be in range of the target

Not any more. Pre-measuring means its point and click.




to pick the best target for the models weapon choice

To be fair, that's not exactly difficult. Its mostly a case of 'Is it over/underkill? If not, go ahead


evaluate the target-priority of the enemy army

Again, hardly scientific genius required here. Figure out which units will actually cause you a problem (i.e. very weak combat units like redircters probably aren't worth your time. That unit of 40 marauders... that's getting shot.


figure out how best to try and survive the enevitable combats

Done in army building/deployment mostly. Decent dwarf gunlines for example usually cart a couple of chunky units to cover the main approaches, meaning you don't actually even need to do that much with shooting. Super gunlines of death wouldn't even see combat.


where the enemy units will go once they beat the gunline in combat / panic off from shooting.


Wait what? Apart from being very basic tactics, every player in the game has to do this. That's like saying you have to choose whether or not to have a general...


Gunlines are an unimaginative style of gaming. There's very little that you have to do except choose targets, and roll dice. You might well get your ass handed to you, but its probably nothing you did right or wrong.

Novrain
09-11-2010, 19:46
Pre-measuring means its point and click.

Not strictly true, ranged weapons still have set ranges, and if the enemy is 1/2" out when you measure then they are out.


To be fair, that's not exactly difficult. Its mostly a case of 'Is it over/underkill? If not, go ahead

Exactly the same with combat blocks surely?


Again, hardly scientific genius required here. Figure out which units will actually cause you a problem (i.e. very weak combat units like redircters probably aren't worth your time. That unit of 40 marauders... that's getting shot.

The same for combat heavy armies... which units to engage with th available resources.


Gunlines are an unimaginative style of gaming. There's very little that you have to do except choose targets, and roll dice. You might well get your ass handed to you, but its probably nothing you did right or wrong.

Combat armies are a boring style of army to play, magic armies are a boring style of army to play etc etc...

The only unimaginative part of the game against an army with shooting, is in the opponents list writing, where they chose not to include something to deal with gunlines.

1 dimensional armies of all types, be they dwarf/empire gunlines, WoC lists of only combat units, or bret all kinght lists, are fundamentally boring, btoh to play and to play against.

I don't get why gunlines get all the hate and whining, when "combat-lines" or "magic-lines" are just as bad.

Nuada
09-11-2010, 19:46
a dozen fanatics and 7 or more artillery pieces at only 2000 pts.
I've had a go at a similar list to that as well in 7th. I had a 3k list led by Skarsnik with his zappy prodder, and some NG shamans (lvl4, and three lvl2's) 2 Rock Lobbers, 6 Spear Chukkas 3 Doom Divers and 19 fanatics.

I won, but it wasn't a very good game. Not really my cup of tea. :p

LAV-Kitsune-
09-11-2010, 21:20
I sometimes play a daemon "gunline" that has 12 flamers, 9 screamers in units of 3 and good magical offensive. Most of my army is melee troops, but the tactic is just sitting in the corner and moving fast units like fiends and greater daemons to opponents rear. I consider it as a gunline as it can throw devastating spells and deal major damage outside melee, still it has under 50% points in shooting. Army like that really takes alot less skill to play than say, full force melee as it is like others said more like point and click.

Playing against gunlines is pretty easy for me, as I almost always pick lore of light and have lots of really fast troops on my list. Unfortunately not all armies have fast units and access to lore of light, so I reallu do understand their grief. If you really dont have anything to counter gunline it is -really- boring to play against. For example full nurgle themed daemon army that just takes the hits and walks forward. That was one of the most boring games I ever played even though I won in the end.

Tae
09-11-2010, 21:21
I don't get why gunlines get all the hate and whining, when "combat-lines" or "magic-lines" are just as bad.

Because gun lines (especially Thorek ones) can end up being one player games. Moreso than combat lists, playing against a gun line involves one player playing a full game of fantasy and the other walking forward each turn, rolling saves, removing casualties and just about sod all else.

Combat lists/magic lists at least involve some form of choice and interaction for the opponent. Against a gun line you get none of this. This is why they are hated moreso than combat lists. Not because of the damage but because of the out and out boredom that ensues for the opponent.

Kevlar
09-11-2010, 22:39
Gun lines can also be magical. Skaven warlock engineers for instance. Level one, default spell to warp lightning. Cheaper than a bolt thrower, but just as effective. Back in the older rules they were affectionately known as "the triplets". Well now you can field a lot more than three.

mistrmoon
10-11-2010, 00:43
Percentage of the army spent in ranged troops doesn't always represent what a gunline is.

An extreme example is a chaos army where every model has a ranged weapon, none are a hellcannon though. That's a very poor gunline, but has spent 100% of its points in troops with ranged weapons.



I think at this point we need to discern between 'ranged troops' and 'troops with ranged weapons' because i feel these are 2 very different things.

Marauder horsemen with throwing axes are NOT ranged troops although they have the ability to shoot their primary goal is to be mobile and fight when a good opportunity presents itself. They CAN shoot but are there to fight.

On the other end lets take empire hand gunners. One look at their statline and equipment will tell you these are clearly not combat troops, the only reason they exist is so you have some dudes on the board to pull the triggers of all those rifles you bought. They CAN fight but they are there to shoot.

Charistoph
10-11-2010, 20:18
I think at this point we need to discern between 'ranged troops' and 'troops with ranged weapons' because i feel these are 2 very different things.

Marauder horsemen with throwing axes are NOT ranged troops although they have the ability to shoot their primary goal is to be mobile and fight when a good opportunity presents itself. They CAN shoot but are there to fight.

On the other end lets take empire hand gunners. One look at their statline and equipment will tell you these are clearly not combat troops, the only reason they exist is so you have some dudes on the board to pull the triggers of all those rifles you bought. They CAN fight but they are there to shoot.

And when the core of your army is based on them with everything else purchased only to support and protect them, then you have a gunline army.

KronusDaSneaky
10-11-2010, 22:00
Gun lines can also be magical. Skaven warlock engineers for instance. Level one, default spell to warp lightning. Cheaper than a bolt thrower, but just as effective. Back in the older rules they were affectionately known as "the triplets". Well now you can field a lot more than three.

I agree magelines can be akin to gun lines but 8th largely did away with them. With a limited randomly generated PD pool there's simply not enough dice to give every wizard you take. Technically you could take more then 3 warlock engineers with wizarding levels given the new % based system, you could easily take 6+ but in practise your scrapping the barrel power dice wise to use any of them effectively, especially if you have a Grey Seer (which is now the norm at 2000+) on your list gobbling them up like a pd addict. Many skaven armies ran the triplet warp lighting warlocks in 7th but in 8th there only taken in limited numbers as wizards and largely only to back up the grey seer or to access things like the doomrocket.

Charistoph
10-11-2010, 22:11
Ah, but Warplocks can take guns, can they not?

Haravikk
10-11-2010, 22:25
It's kind of dependant on the army; if you're playing as Dwarfs and happen to favour Thunderers then it's very easy to spend half of your points on ranged units. It'd certainly give you a lot of ranged clout, but could easily leave you with a mixed army.

Swap those Thunderers for Quarrellers with Great Weapons and Shields (same points cost) and you have an army that's almost certainly going to carve up the enemy rather than try to shoot them the whole game, though you can bet the shooting they do get will still hurt.

I'd say that in general it's all about an army that lacks hard-hitting combat troops in favour of shooting the crap out of you while less capable combat units clean up whatever's left. High numbers of war machines are typical but not necessary so long as the army has the capacity to turn most close combats into a one-sided bloodbath for a comparatively small group of combat units.

Psygon
10-11-2010, 22:38
1 dimensional armies of all types, be they dwarf/empire gunlines, WoC lists of only combat units, or bret all kinght lists, are fundamentally boring, btoh to play and to play against.



As a Bretonnian player (with a combat heavy WoC player as my most common opponent) I have to take offense at that. I have had some of my greatest warhammer games with all knight lists vs combat heavy WoC lists, largely because the amount of damage we dish out to each other is absurd, and the game usually ends in a hard fought, extremely bloody draw where the (fighty) generals have disemboweled each other in a challenge.

Plus, I would consider the game a lot less fun if both him and I were to max out our trebuchet and hellcannon allowance and attempt to smash each other to bits at range rather than actually fight it out in close combat.

Novrain
11-11-2010, 11:06
Honestly Psygon I can see your point, but I feel that mixed army lists (perhaps with a tactical slant towards combat / magic / shooting) give the best battles in the end.

People b*tch and moan about gunlines, but seriously, alot of armies struggle to match up in the combat phase and so have to rely on magic or artillery to survive. (For example I would rather not try an empire combat list with no artillery vs. a WoC Khorne marauder blender, possible perhaps with outstanding luck, but not really realistic)

However I think that when that reliance goes too far, either towards combat / magic / shooting then the turns and games become one dimensional. It works if you both have the same focus (so brets and WoC) but if only one of you does it then it becomes boring.

For me, it is just as boring to play against a no-magic, no-hellcannon Woc army as a Dwarf gunline. Gunlines choose targets and roll dice and kill stuff, combat-lines go forward as fast as possible, roll dice and kill stuff...

It might be fun if you have brought a combat orientated list too, but I honestly think mixed army lists that try to compete and do something in all phases of the game are the best bet for giving both youself and your opponent an interesting game.

DeathlessDraich
11-11-2010, 14:14
5 or more shooting units.

Gunlines are easy to play with or against.

PurpleSun
11-11-2010, 14:46
Gunlines remind me of that scene from Indiana Jones, where the arab guy with the sword does this impressive show of skill by swinging his sword all over the place in an attempt to intimidate Indy, and then Indy just pops out his sidearm and shoots the guy down in one shot. The one with the gun comes out on top, but there is nothing glorious or honorable about the victory.

ROCKY
11-11-2010, 17:59
Gunlines remind me of that scene from Indiana Jones, where the arab guy with the sword does this impressive show of skill by swinging his sword all over the place in an attempt to intimidate Indy, and then Indy just pops out his sidearm and shoots the guy down in one shot. The one with the gun comes out on top, but there is nothing glorious or honorable about the victory.

To be fair i doubt a bunch of empire soldier would think about "honor" when seeing a horde of chaos follower charging them. theres a difference between honor and stupidity. I dont like gunlines, but in a lot of my armies i do use lots of guns (but they are about 1/4th of my points).

and a skaven player will basically say: HONOR?! you can take that term, dust it off, and stick it where the sun dont shine cuz i wanna live!.

to be fair dwarves have moved alot towards combat now so you will not always see massive dwarf gunlines anymore. being that these dwarves can no run 10 miles hehehe.

Lastly while gunlines have been hated before, they are alot easier to get to now, 2d6 plus ur movement in charges and 3d6 pick the highes plus your movement for the faster units/cav insures you WILL get to combat. plus there are lots of ways to protect your self, screening, magic, and ward saves.

Loopstah
11-11-2010, 18:04
I tried building a High Elves gunline. Core of Archers, a bunch of bolt throwers and a ton of Shadow warriors and Reavers. Every single model except the mages had a ranged weapon.

It was rubbish.

TheFirstSpaceMarine
11-11-2010, 18:28
Don't know why there's all the hate. I've got an Empire gunline with a couple of steam tanks and win most games using it.

Nuada
11-11-2010, 18:46
Maybe the answer is to try and make a scenario for your gunlines?

An example... i had a game against dwarfs that didn't move much, they were defending their underground realm with orcs running from each tunnel. http://www.astronomican.com/showthread.php?17707-The-Silver-Road-Wars.-Battle-for-Mount-Silverspear


-You could have the gunline in the middle of the table (last stand type scenario)

-Maybe a scenario where the combat orientated force has a higher points value, but to compensate the defenders (gunline army) has the terrain advantage .... controlling the river crossing, they've set traps etc.

..and other similar ideas.
If you have every game where you run straight forward at a gunline it would become tedious.

RanaldLoec
11-11-2010, 20:40
My mantra, is that if you/your opponent feels that they are not reaching you with enough men to actually stand a chance of fighting you and winning, you're a gunline.

Be it hellcannons, mortars, or a lot of dwarves.

A gunline is a valid tactic as is a refused flank, oblique line, or a blood soaked khorne inspired head long charge into combat.

Some armys have very poor close combat troops their missle troops and warmachines are the counter balance to this.

And Dwarfs are just small chubby alcoholics who would rather let you come to them don't hold it against them alcoholism is a deeply debilitating condition.

AMWOOD co
12-11-2010, 02:47
I think at this point we need to discern between 'ranged troops' and 'troops with ranged weapons' because i feel these are 2 very different things.

Marauder horsemen with throwing axes are NOT ranged troops although they have the ability to shoot their primary goal is to be mobile and fight when a good opportunity presents itself. They CAN shoot but are there to fight.

On the other end lets take empire hand gunners. One look at their statline and equipment will tell you these are clearly not combat troops, the only reason they exist is so you have some dudes on the board to pull the triggers of all those rifles you bought. They CAN fight but they are there to shoot.

The only problem with this is you have a few units there to do both or neither. Ogre Leadbelchers come to mind right away. Shoot and charge is their game.

Also, units like my small goblin archer units. I have shortbows on them but there are only 20 with a musician. Their job is not to shoot or to fight but to act as the delivery system for 3 fanatics. These specialized units are there for tactical means. If they happen to kill something, all the better.

To Novrain: I know what you mean. I had a regular opponent who used Empire while I was using Greenskins and Chaos Warriors. Any time he built a combat heavy army, only his knights did well, and not well enough to make up my massacering the rest of his infantry. He had to resort to either heavy knight or heavy artillery or both to stand a chance.

The fun was that his army was so flexible in the end with him having 20 knights, pistoliers, and a butt load of handgunners and artillery. He did have spearmen, swordsmen, and greatswords, a steam tank (which he always blew up himself...) and often proxied flaggelants, but the thing to come ready for was knights and artillery.

Being ready for those, however, took a lot out of my army's freedom. Then, just to jerk my chain, he would take no artillery and only knights, or a solid gunline, or a fully mixed army. Eventually we realized that simply playing the game and realizing that sometimes someone wants to play the "I get to roll all these dice!" style is just the nature of the game.

Sorry, I'm playing .hack G.U. and Gabbi saying "That too is the way of The World" is still ringing in my ears. Still, something to realize. Sometimes you just want to enjoy that one sided fight at your opponent's expense. Just be ready to suck it up when he does it to you (and learn how to smash it when you find someone doing it too often).

mistrmoon
12-11-2010, 07:20
5 or more shooting units.

Gunlines are easy to play with or against.

That is incredibly arbitrary, '5 units'? really so in a dwarf army a naked bolt thrower is the equal of a runed of grudge thrower? Not even close.


Gunlines remind me of that scene from Indiana Jones, where the arab guy with the sword does this impressive show of skill by swinging his sword all over the place in an attempt to intimidate Indy, and then Indy just pops out his sidearm and shoots the guy down in one shot. The one with the gun comes out on top, but there is nothing glorious or honorable about the victory.

Fun story time:
I heard this 3-4th hand so take it with a grain of salt but apparently Harrison Ford had a bad case of diarrhea and needed to get off set quickly so he just shoots the dude. There was apparently supposed to be an epic fight scene, oh well, sorry crazy sword weilding guy, your 15 minutes of fame was cut short by to many tacos....


The only problem with this is you have a few units there to do both or neither. Ogre Leadbelchers come to mind right away. Shoot and charge is their game.

Also, units like my small goblin archer units. I have shortbows on them but there are only 20 with a musician. Their job is not to shoot or to fight but to act as the delivery system for 3 fanatics. These specialized units are there for tactical means. If they happen to kill something, all the better.


This is true and i didn't say those were the only two roles (there are also redirecting troops, disruption troops and in the case of horrors magic troops) just that considering an army of throwing axes a gunline is silly and you're right there is definitely some grey area.

lisaundead
12-11-2010, 07:56
*Goes away and grumbles into his beard and ale about all these "combat-lines", "magic-lines" and "Oh-****-I'm-Woodelves-lines"*


Guys, every army, bar none, has a counter to gunlines. Just break out of your ruts and use some of them? Learn to adapt to the guy that runs an empire mortar 'n' cannon-fest, and stop bitching so bad.

Totally agree, most of my armies have no shooting units and are predominantly cc orientated and I find it a challenge when i come up against a gunline...there are ALWAYS ways around the static gunline...just gotta find it and hey presto....

Jind_Singh
12-11-2010, 19:20
It's all down to style of play - faced a Dwarf the other day who had, for shooting,

2 bolt throwers
1 grudge thrower
1 organ gun
2 units of crossbows (10 strong and 15 strong)
Gyrocopter

Which is a lot of stuff, but no where near excessive. But since he didn't move AT ALL the style of play made it a gunline army.

Empire - played a guy, lots of times, who took:

2 Cannons
20 crossbows
7 outriders

And again the fact that he didn't advance made it a gunline.

Gunline is a concept - when you have to spend turn after turn advancing towards an enemy who refuses to engage and keeps shooting you, it's a gunline!

The only time the army list makes it a gunline is when (for fun) I took ALL shooting troops for my core, handgunners, crossbows, archers, all warmachines for my specials, and rocket battery with steamtank for rare (back in 7th) against a VC who took his maximum power die build - I died horribly but it was an arranged game were we wanted to just play to one theme - shooting phase for me, magic phase for him.

AMWOOD co
13-11-2010, 02:30
I suppose one of the reasons I always argue in favour of using any style of play is that I am used to massive games. A few years ago, our regular games (weekly) were 2 vs 2 at 3000 pts per army or 6000 pts per side. Even just 1 on 1, 3000 pts is hard to maintain an army that is a one trick pony, especially once terrain is added.

Every time I formed or was teamed up with a gunline, it ended up being a Hammer and Anvil tactic, as the non-gunline units all engaged one flank and the gunline tried to maintain the other. Gunlines rarely worked in the end (Gorgers, multiple flying monsters, skaven tunnel teams, heavy knights, chariots, opposing 'gunlines' ie. wood elves, the Hammer reaching the supposed anvil...). At the point-level of play I'm used to, a gunline just didn't do enough.

Oh, and when my lizardman foe uses an army consisting of a Slaan, 2 units of Saurus, 4 Kroxigors, a Carnosaur, and some skinks and moves forward a total of 4", I'm tempted to call it a gunline. At least I would if I weren't always facing those scaly scallywags with a Chaos Warrior armies and so staying back and casting spells at me is his best option.

logan054
13-11-2010, 02:37
I really dislike playing against armies that sit on the table edge, a few times I have had the joy of the opponent giving up after I reach combat, essentially the game has been me removing models and because they hasn't managed to remove enough in time they don't want to play anymore.

AMWOOD co
13-11-2010, 02:57
I had a battle against a Skaven army where that was his plan and he ended up removing more of his models than mine by the time I made it to combat. I barely finished my second turn before the match was a foregone conclusion.

sulla
13-11-2010, 10:49
In all honesty, I couldn't say what constitutes a gunline in this edition. I'm tempted to say 'anything with 2 s5 templates.' I don't really know why stone throwers aren't capped at s4. Being able to remove about 17 models from a t3 block with each hit is ridiculous.

Gotrek
13-11-2010, 14:40
hello there, my name is Sutr and i'm a gunlinehololic.

i play dwarfs with 3 runes GTs, 2 cannons and a organ gun but in my defense i have 2*30 warriors and 20 hammerers, 20 rangers and a couple nakid dragonslayers.

it makes me sad not playing the way you want to but when you bring 2 abominations, bell, hydras, ward save 3+ characters that fly, have 59234759324759374 attacks with rerolls to everything and whatnot and my way of stoping it is putting my face in front of it with my expensive units, booklets that make my natural and paid for magic resistance nonexistant and whatnot, vampires that flank purplesun you on IF on the 1st turn i sudently feel a little brighter about my condition.

on the overall i as much as power gamer as the next guy and since the army i chose, love and have everything of is a natural gunline i think i'll stick to it untill we have a pregame agreement on what to take and whatnot to

WarmbloodedLizard
13-11-2010, 17:47
It's all down to style of play - faced a Dwarf the other day who had, for shooting,

2 bolt throwers
1 grudge thrower
1 organ gun
2 units of crossbows (10 strong and 15 strong)
Gyrocopter

Which is a lot of stuff, but no where near excessive. But since he didn't move AT ALL the style of play made it a gunline army.

Empire - played a guy, lots of times, who took:

2 Cannons
20 crossbows
7 outriders

And again the fact that he didn't advance made it a gunline.

Gunline is a concept - when you have to spend turn after turn advancing towards an enemy who refuses to engage and keeps shooting you, it's a gunline!


The dwarf player is bordering gunline because of playing style. but the empire list can never be considered a gunline (assuming 2k+ pts). just not possible. even if he just hangs back and shoots at you, his killing power is just not high enough.

I strongly disagree with the idea that Gunline is just a playing style. you NEED strong shooting first, it's the primary condition. only when you actually have strong shooting does the secondary condition of playingstyle start to matter.

EDIT: e.g. The Dwarf army you mentioned has a pretty average amount of shooting (for a dwarf army). It is strong shooting. combined with the style of hanging back, it becomes a gunline.

The Grim
15-11-2010, 02:16
In all honesty, I couldn't say what constitutes a gunline in this edition. I'm tempted to say 'anything with 2 s5 templates.' I don't really know why stone throwers aren't capped at s4. Being able to remove about 17 models from a t3 block with each hit is ridiculous.

I cannot believe you are still whining about those :p

Anyway, thanks all for the insight!