PDA

View Full Version : Skave Warpfire Thrower/Mortar vs Dark Elf Magic?



Poseidon_II_
09-11-2010, 20:40
Hi im new to warhammer and so is my friend (playing skaven). We hade our first match yesterday and now i got some rule questions. Skaven warpfire thrower (and the poison windmortar stuff) counts as a addition to the clan rat unit and can be placed at the same time as the clan rats in the deployment zone. So I thought that if I cast Chillwind on the clan rats it would prevent the mortar/warpfire thrower from shooting, the mortar team was really close to the clan rats. (rules on Chillwind: Magic missile. 24" range D6 S4 hits, any unit taking casualties cannot shoot in its next turn) or if I used Bladewind I could kill the mortar/warpfire thrower with the attack I direct against a specific model in a unit and the mortar/warpfire thrower counted as the same unit according to my friend (rules on bladewind: Target one unit visible within 24" range. The spell inflicts 3D6 WS4, S4 close combat attacksupon the target. One of these attacks can be allocated against each character and champion in the unit).

But my frind said that chillwind and bladewind diden't work that way on the mortar/warpfire thrower and he also stated that he diden't need a wizard to dispel spells (roll dispell dices). And both was very unsure if bladewind could direct the damage after all attacks where rolled or if you roll one "special dice" for the "extra" target you select for bladewind. And can poison wind mortar thingy shoot all over the gameboard? My firnd said it hade infinate range (wtf?).

Lord_Elric
09-11-2010, 20:58
I belive that the weapons teams are targeted seperatly to the unit if ever fired at though im not sure of the Exact rules, so going on what i know id say no unless the spell targeted the team then it wouldnt effect it

on your second piont no you do not need a wizard in order to dispel that is 100%

however i do not know about the range problem sounds iffy to me though

EDIT just ben told by a friend and "HELL NO its range is clearly stated in its army list entry as 6" to 24" inches".....those were his exact words

stripsteak
09-11-2010, 21:06
after deployment the weapon team counts as a normal unit for all purposes. It needs to be targeted separately from it's parent unit for any attacks, spells etc.

poisoned wind mortar has a range, i believe it's 24" not positive but i do know it does have a range.

Poseidon_II_
09-11-2010, 21:13
Thanks, always thought it was a little overpowered and strange that mortar could nuke me across the map with it's "infinate range". But was kinda a supise that you don't need a wizard to dispel spells (who is dispeling the spells?!).

Kevlar
09-11-2010, 21:14
Weapon teams are only attached to the unit for deployment. Afterward they are a separate unit and can do as they please. They do get bonuses from ranks and a look out sir if they stay near the unit, but are never a part of it.

stripsteak
09-11-2010, 21:19
Thanks, always thought it was a little overpowered and strange that mortar could nuke me across the map with it's "infinate range". But was kinda a supise that you don't need a wizard to dispel spells (who is dispeling the spells?!).

its the will of the army, or the ficklness of the winds of magic or something like that...the (probably) best army at dispelling, Dwarfs, can't even take wizards. just their innate distrust? hate? disbelief? in magic is enough to stop spells.

Poseidon_II_
09-11-2010, 22:11
I got another question. Can my friend stand and fire with a skaven warpfire thrower if i charge his unit of clan rats (skaven warpfire thrower is really close to them)?

Kevlar
09-11-2010, 22:21
I got another question. Can my friend stand and fire with a skaven warpfire thrower if i charge his unit of clan rats (skaven warpfire thrower is really close to them)?

Only if you are playing empire skaven with warpfire thrower detachments.

Korraz
09-11-2010, 22:21
No. They are separate units. Such things are stated in the entry of such units.

Poseidon_II_
09-11-2010, 22:38
Only if you are playing empire skaven with warpfire thrower detachments.

I have absolutly no clue what you are saying... This is what happened: 10 witch elf charge 20 clan rats and my friend says: stop! im gonna stand and fire with my warpfire thrower and then he shoot with his warpfire thrower and kills allot of my witch elfs and then i get to charge and melee his 20 clan rats.

Makrar
09-11-2010, 23:09
If the skaven player places his or hers weapon team so that to charge the parent unit you must also charge the weapons team then YES you can stand a shoot.

Poseidon_II_
09-11-2010, 23:15
But if I chage and I don't make base contact with the weapon team can he still "stand and fire"?

Lord_Elric
09-11-2010, 23:43
If the skaven player places his or hers weapon team so that to charge the parent unit you must also charge the weapons team then YES you can stand a shoot.

Um no because units that you are forced to engage because of clipping dont get charge reactions the only unit that makes a charge reaction is the unit that you declare a charge aginst...

Kevlar
10-11-2010, 00:56
I have absolutly no clue what you are saying... This is what happened: 10 witch elf charge 20 clan rats and my friend says: stop! im gonna stand and fire with my warpfire thrower and then he shoot with his warpfire thrower and kills allot of my witch elfs and then i get to charge and melee his 20 clan rats.

Its a joke. The only units that can stand and shoot when another unit gets charges are empire detachments.

Your friend is a cheater.

Warpfire thrower can not stand and shoot at something attacking another unit, even if it is the unit that allowed the warpfire thrower to be fielded.

stripsteak
10-11-2010, 01:42
Um no because units that you are forced to engage because of clipping dont get charge reactions the only unit that makes a charge reaction is the unit that you declare a charge aginst...

pg 22 'under no circumstances can a unit use its charge move to move into contact with an enemy it has not declared a charge against' also see page 18 chargeing more than one unit.

Makrar
10-11-2010, 04:41
Um no because units that you are forced to engage because of clipping dont get charge reactions the only unit that makes a charge reaction is the unit that you declare a charge aginst...

Um, Very very Wrong.


A unit can normally only charge one unit, however, if there is no way at all of completing the charge against an emey unit without touching them (sometimes known as clipping) then the charging unit must also declare a charge against the other unit(s).

Page 18, Charging more than one unit.

Korraz
10-11-2010, 09:05
Yeah, but setting the conditions up to allow such a charge is quite difficult and not worth the hassle. Especially not for WFT, since it's standing and shooting sucks and it will then killed in the CC.

Poseidon_II_
10-11-2010, 11:25
just to clear things out it can't stand and fire if I don't charge it (or charge it at the same time im chargeing the clan rats, which means I have to make base contact with it, right?)?

Cjwee
10-11-2010, 11:40
So i'm just gonna summarise

fire thrower and poisonwind mortars are deployed WITH their parent unit initially, but afterwards for all intents and purposes are seperate units meaining that you HAVE to target them seperately.

The mortar's range is 6-24 NOT unlimited

as for the stand and shoot only the warpfire and the ratling gun can do it, and they can't fire if u charge only the parent unit, however what some people do is put their fire thrower and ratling gun right beside their parent unit so that when u charge the parent unit, you MUST charge the weapons team as well because you will be clipping them (and thus engagin in close combat)

hope this helps

with regards

bert n ernie
10-11-2010, 12:19
That last one sounds like he made a mistake, as when I first read the rules I thought I could stand and fire with my WFT. However before my first game I realised that it must be charged. As others said, if it is right next to his unit and they are close together, then yes. However I'm not sure if he is allowed to do that, as usually units must be 1" apart.

If he places it slightly forward of the parent unit then there's a good chance you'd have to charge it first though.

Lord_Elric
10-11-2010, 14:06
That last one sounds like he made a mistake, as when I first read the rules I thought I could stand and fire with my WFT. However before my first game I realised that it must be charged. As others said, if it is right next to his unit and they are close together, then yes. However I'm not sure if he is allowed to do that, as usually units must be 1" apart.

If he places it slightly forward of the parent unit then there's a good chance you'd have to charge it first though.

Not quite that simple really as the brb states that charging is the only time a unit can be within 1 inch of another unit so hed have to be forced to make phsyical contact with WFT inorder for it tobe considered and in order to be forced to make a charge declaration you must be unable to complete the charge without making contact with the fire thrower also it is very difficult to do and really a waste of brain power trying to work it out

Makrar
10-11-2010, 15:59
Against similar width units then yeah its hard to pull off, against wider units? works like a charm. But most times its not really needed as the team will die. but it has its uses

Lord_Elric
10-11-2010, 16:20
Against similar width units then yeah its hard to pull off, against wider units? works like a charm. But most times its not really needed as the team will die. but it has its uses

Well given the fact you can wheel as much as you like when charging its easy to avoid as you must be "unable" to charge just the single unit meaning youd need 1 either side of the unit or something obstructing the chargers on the opposing side of the unit possible but by no means easy to a forward thinking opponent

Makrar
10-11-2010, 22:29
Even if the opponent wheels to avoid it, its great to protect a character who is on the edge of the unit. It also slightly redirects there unit and increases the the survival rate of your own unit.

Its win win either way

bert n ernie
11-11-2010, 07:23
Not quite that simple really as the brb states that charging is the only time a unit can be within 1 inch of another unit so hed have to be forced to make phsyical contact with WFT inorder for it tobe considered and in order to be forced to make a charge declaration you must be unable to complete the charge without making contact with the fire thrower also it is very difficult to do and really a waste of brain power trying to work it out

I think perhaps you didn't understand in what way I was talking about the 1" rule.
You can not have the warpfire thrower and the skaven unit in base to base contact. There must be 1" between then too!
What that means is that if the unit charging the skaven unit is of equal width they should not have to touch the base of the warpfire thrower to charge, unless they are coming from a very skewed angle, or the warpfire thrower is directly in front of the unit.

Even if you have 1 either side, you would still need a wider charging unit to guarantee that it hits them, unless they are placed forward of the unit.

Korraz
11-11-2010, 09:09
Well given the fact you can wheel as much as you like when charging its easy to avoid as you must be "unable" to charge just the single unit meaning youd need 1 either side of the unit or something obstructing the chargers on the opposing side of the unit possible but by no means easy to a forward thinking opponent

I might be missing something in this post, but you are only allowed to wheel a single time when charging. And then, in contact, you have to "close the door."