View Full Version : Just how much magic is too much magic?

09-11-2010, 21:59
Now, back in 7th, each caster brought his own pool of dice with him to the party.

No more!

With a max of 12 + channelled power dice, there really must be a top end to effective spell casting!

Now I'm playing with a Lv4 and a Lv2 @2000pts and I usually only just get off all my spells with an above average roll for winds of magic. I can appreciate that my Lv4 is throwing less dice to cast spells and I'm toying with the idea of running twin Lv4's.

What I'm interested to hear is whether anyone has brought too many spells to the knife fight and what peoples opinion is on the maximum effective magic phase, eg. how many of what level in what combo?

so lets hear it bumders! :D

09-11-2010, 22:12
I run a Level 4 and a level 1, shadow and metal respectively. This is for my Dark Elf army, where I can load a scroll on the metal caster who always takes the signature spell (which I can throw 10 dice at if need be). The Shadow caster is not reliant on good power dice rolls between the sacrificial dagger and the +4 to cast. I get 2 chances to channel, my level 4 has provided excellent defense, and I feel like I always come out ahead with the magic phase - having more levels won't let me get off any more spells as useful as Mindrazor, which I WILL throw 12 dice at if it will break the game.

My Empire runs a level 4, a level 2, a Lector and a WP. Heavens is the lore I choose for both my casters and mainly because I like the imagery of it. I run the Seal of destruction and the rod of power, but no other items. Its good to have a cheap magic phase that is guarenteed to let you drop comets and chain lightning with your level 4. The rod of power works in tandem with the +3 dispel dice, and I've again dominated the magic phase. Sure, some spells go off but not easily, and I always try to burn out their biggest magic spell with the seal. I've never seen so much destruction as hitting a chaos army with 4 comets in one game. Lucky, but being able to cast on 3 dice (when you average over 9) is worth attempting every phase.

I would not take two level 4s, unless I had a huge amount of power dice to generate, like that of a Slann.

09-11-2010, 22:15
Depending on the army or lores involved, I'd say a level 4 and a level 2 sounds about right (at 2K my Ogres will take one or the other, Butcher or Slaughtermaster).

I've seen someone bring too much to a table - a daemon army containing two Tzeentch Heralds and two 40-strong Horror units. This was early in 8th, before the player realised the true fickle nature of the Winds of Magic (and rolled no higher than 4 on three consecutive magic phases during a tournament game)...

The limit's higher than you think, though you've confused it a little (channelling can't increase the initial power dice pool past 12 dice) - take a caster with a lot of Death magic spells and watch the power dice pour back in for your next caster.

09-11-2010, 22:25
Most of the time I'd say Power Level 6 is a good guideline. 1 LV4, 1LV2, 1 LV4, 2LV1, 3LV2...You could try to run one Level 4 and two Level 2, depending on the lores and mages. If the level 4 is a death mage, for instance, then two Level 2s could be worthwile.
However, sometimes I find it quite hard to have enough dice to support one caster.

09-11-2010, 22:29
Depends on what lores you are bringing to the table.

For most stuff, a lv4 and a lv2 will drink all your dice. On low rolls, you will also end up with a lot of uncasted magic. I would say thats about the maximum you should bring unless you have a way to generate more power dice.

In the case of some lores, even a lv4 and a lv2 might be too much. Life comes to mind, as the casting values are a bit high. My HE usually bring a lv4 and a lv2, but im seriously considering downgrading one of them. I dont want to take only 1 because of the versatility 2 lores provide, but on some games i become really strapped for power dice.

Torpedo Vegas
09-11-2010, 23:32
I field only a lvl4. But, as an Empire player, I also field several Warrior Priests, each which has their own bound magic and contribute a +1 to dispell dice. As such, I almost always run Light or Life to support my troops, and my Priests help with negating magic as a whole. I do however tend to field a Lvl1 if I can, with LoS, so I can switch him with my LVL4 if the lvl4 is ever in danger.

Awilla the Hun
10-11-2010, 18:27
I run a level 1/2 damsel and rely on armour, weight of numbers, revolutionary fervour, and high leadership (if the Commissars are nearby) to hold off everything else.

Da GoBBo
10-11-2010, 18:39
I think most armies can support up to 6 casterlevels. I wouldn't hesitate though, to bring bring more casterlevels in order to have a better chance of getting all the needed spells among several lores.

10-11-2010, 19:21
For me it is more about how many arcane items i want to have in my list. Normally a lvl4 does all the casting, the lvl2 or 1's are just for arcane support.

10-11-2010, 19:24
Most competitive is one lvl 4 and one support mage. That could be a lvl 1 or 2, but it's real purpose is to give you more spells to pick from (usually targetting the signature spell of a certain lore) and being there to fill in when the lord mage fails.

Note that you can still pull off spamming with several low level mages, plus there is the synergy with generating more dice, but there is the obvious cost.

10-11-2010, 19:54
If I was playing empire or maybe even High elves I might just try running 3 light mages for that magic missile spell.

Generally though a LV4 as the main caster and a lv1-2 as a backup/dispel scroll carrier works fine.

That said it depends on the race, Vamps and especially deamons can get a full lore really cheaply.

Tzeentzth sorcerer with master of sorcery is awsome. Full lore really cheaply. Heck for the cost of most races lv4 they can take 2 master of sorcery casters. (though they only really have 1 option to protect them, a horror block)

10-11-2010, 22:13
Depends on the dice you have available. Without extra dice, 3 spells is about all you'll usually be able to cast. So 3 + situational coverage is 4-5 levels. If you have extra dice, you can have extra wizards. I'm currently running beastmen with a L3 and 3 L1's around the herdstone shard, spamming miasma (all with +1 to cast). With that setup, I'm getting +4 dice with 4 chances to channel, and can dependably cast 5-6 spells so it's worth it.

10-11-2010, 22:49
I think a lot of it can also come down to access to Loremaster or the like.

If theres a specific spell or 2 your after (Lore of Life is a classic example of requiring Throne of Vines for full potential) you need some form of redundancy if you have no Loremaster option.

My approach tends to vary between armies:

Vampire Counts I have a Lord with Loremaster and 1-2 low level support casters. Here I'm guaranteed to get the spells I want, and can cast what I need fairly reliably with a bit of redundancy.

Warriors of Chaos I have a lvl 4 and a single support caster due to their expense (support caster is ofter a BSB with Book of Secrets). So I choose a lore where with a good broad selection rather than 1 or 2 spells I must have.

Beastmen I spam low level casters with solely signature spells similarly to Decker (though normally Beasts due to my preference of buffs over de-buffs), and occasionally a Great Brey for Shadowy goodness!

I guess what I'm saying is I like to be able to guarantee I get the spells I plan to, and anything else is just gravy!

Grey Mage
10-11-2010, 23:49
Depends on your Lores aswell- Lore of Deaths ability to recharge the power pool is very helpful if your running several casters, and syngerises well with other magics.

And of course, the other ways you gain power dice after the initial pool total- Slanns extra casting dice, DE sacrifices and starter spell...

11-11-2010, 00:19
I like taking 6 lvl 1 warlock engineers all with warp lightning. (plus two warp lightning cannons, and 2 doomwheels)

11-11-2010, 02:41
I like taking 6 lvl 1 warlock engineers all with warp lightning. (plus two warp lightning cannons, and 2 doomwheels)

How does that work out for you?

Torpedo Vegas
11-11-2010, 04:14
How does that work out for you?
You cheesy cheesy magnificent rat bastard. I want to read your list.

11-11-2010, 06:37
I seem to have a long and illustrious history of getting less than 5 power dice every turn (and I think throughout the whole time I've been playing 8th, I've managed to channel about twice), therefore I just take a level 4 (whether playing with wood elves or goblins), because the extra caster would mostly be wasted (and costs a similar number of points to a whole extra unit).

The level 4 lets me cast spells quite successfully, gives me reasonable magic defense, and doesn't cost tons of points (well....it does, but not as much as a level 4 and a smaller wizard). Obviously with only one wizard I have to be a bit careful of miscasts, but that's only really a problem for the elves. With goblins a miscast is pretty much expected, and let's face it, the image of a goblin shaman exploding is so good that it's worth the loss.

11-11-2010, 06:43
@3k, I run 2 Level 4 Archmages. Then again, I play HE, and get +d3 Dice from a banner, and +1 from an item which helps get more dice out.

11-11-2010, 07:24
How much magic is too much magic? Well run Teclis and a banner of sorcery. Then add a lvl2 for Annulian Crystal and he is almost forced to get irresistable force to get anything off.

11-11-2010, 10:55
I've been running a Lv 4 and 2 like it seems alot of people are doing and im quite happy with it. sure i don't get every spell off but i tend to get the ones im looking for so all is good, now if only Empire has access to a Loremaster ability i'd be sorted :D

12-11-2010, 08:11
I had a Lvl 4, and three Lvl 1's in a Bret list and felt strapped for power dice- one high lvl caster and one low lvl caster is about the limit-

I think whoever mentioned earlier to shoot for a combined lvl of 6 was probably right as far as where the limit is for most armies-

Dark elves and Lizzardmen, maybe Skaven if you take enough warpstone can do more-

Lord 0
12-11-2010, 08:36
Too much magic is when the game isn't fun any more. This number will vary from person to person.

12-11-2010, 19:41
Too much magic is when the game isn't fun any more. This number will vary from person to person.

amen, but harder to achieve thiss edition thankfully

I've run the lvl 4 +lvl 2 a bit and the level 2 has in general not been worth it. Will probably settle for a lvl 4 in most of my armies (except 1-2 lvl 2 loremasters in demons)

13-11-2010, 01:54
Considering the hard cap of 12 power dice there really can never be too much magic. If you don't have enough dice to power your spells your wizards are just wasted points.

Now war machines are the shiznit!

13-11-2010, 07:06
I prefer a good fighting lord to a lvl 4 and so go with 2 lvl 2s. I tend to get 2 spells off a turn and don't feel I've wasted points if they blow up. Ok defines it slightly harder but u can't have it all ;)

13-11-2010, 07:12
It depends if you need to get spells of for you plan to work then you need to take a lvl 4 and lvl2 to generate some dice. If magic is just a side tactic, then you only need a lower level caster to help dispel and get a few spells off.

13-11-2010, 16:09
I have run morathi and 3 lvl 2s to quite an impressive effect in 2500pts it went quite well as my covenant army though usualy i run a lvl4 on its own or lvl3 and 2 lvl2's power of darkness and sacrificail dagger help out alot though

how ever running a dreadlord on pegasus and 2 lvl2 shadow mages also on pegs can make for some great teleporty fun