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thechosenone
10-11-2010, 00:33
So i've played forty K and fantasy a long time. Very interested in the Dark Eldar so i bought the dex and as i leaf through it i find myself baffled as to the list making.

There seems to be so much competition for choices that i don't know where to start? I get how to play them but now how to write the list, what's the general strategy here. What are you all doing for general purpose fun list. Not necessarily the tournament breaker type lists but those would help too.

Help me out, how do i list the Dark Eldar?

Bunnahabhain
10-11-2010, 00:40
Well, in a list full of reasonably good choices, you can go wild.

Pick units you like the look of, have the models for, etc, and then round it out with those to cover the gaps in you capacities.

Assuming you have half a brain, you should have a fun list that will be at least reasonable, and a solid base if you want to tweak it in other directions...

UberBeast
10-11-2010, 00:46
I'm pretty much putting in units I like and equiping them to my playstyle. Somehow I think it would be hard to make a terrible list so long as you are filling out your troop selections and making sure you buy a good mix of anti-tank and anti-infantry weapons.

Vaktathi
10-11-2010, 00:48
Well, your HS is obviously going to generally your tank/transport killers, so load up on AT guns there. Most of the choices will do although I'm partial to the Ravager.

The Troops section can vary a lot. Warriors are ok shooting units, Wyches and Wracks are great CC units, so depending on what you want your elites and FA to look like should dictate your choices there. If you want lots of scourges and trueborn, probably better to go with wyches and wracks for troops to balance it all out. If you have lots of Warriors, then either supplement it with more shooting with Trueborn, or add in lots of Hellions, Reavers, etc.

Incubi are generally almost a must take from what I've seen so far. Exceedingly good.

It's hard to go wrong as long as you don't overload on the CC and expensive units.

rcm2216
10-11-2010, 01:09
Well, your HS is obviously going to generally your tank/transport killers, so load up on AT guns there. Most of the choices will do although I'm partial to the Ravager.

The Troops section can vary a lot. Warriors are ok shooting units, Wyches and Wracks are great CC units, so depending on what you want your elites and FA to look like should dictate your choices there. If you want lots of scourges and trueborn, probably better to go with wyches and wracks for troops to balance it all out. If you have lots of Warriors, then either supplement it with more shooting with Trueborn, or add in lots of Hellions, Reavers, etc.

Incubi are generally almost a must take from what I've seen so far. Exceedingly good.

It's hard to go wrong as long as you don't overload on the CC and expensive units.

Can you break this down a little more and explain the synergy between the troop selections and the other elite and fast attack units. You seem to be on to something that I see, but still do not fully understand.

DarkCube
10-11-2010, 01:20
The entire book is solid and there's no clear choices. It's really whatever you want to play.

Want a undead theme, go with Haemonculi.
Want more durable units instead of killy Archons, go with Haemonculi and throw them into your units.
Want to go all Kabal units with Warriors and just shoot the heck outta your opponents? Go for it.
Want to take some footsloggers? Go for it. WWP makes it happen with big units of Warriors, Wracks and Wyches.

In my list, I use Kabal units and Wyches. I don't like the Haemonculi's looks and fluff so I play with what's given. Is it any stronger than Haemonculi? Not one bit. It's just another flavor.

Keep your elites like Trueborn specialized - anti-tank or anti-infantry, in a Raider or in a Venom, it doesn't matter.

Incubi are OK, they can put out a good number of attacks, but they're not super needed as long as you have decent CC in your army (like Wracks and Wyches w/ Archon).

Just make sure you have enough anti-tank in your army to bust things open and destroy units from the inside with Warriors (shooting), Wyches/Wracks (melee), or other crazy stuff.

thechosenone
10-11-2010, 01:21
Good thoughts so far and i'd like to hear more from Vaktathi too.

Just a few thoughts and questions?

Succubus, the throw away option?

Shredders no, disintagrators and Dark Lances yes?

Raiders over venoms except for maybe the Incubi?

I'm interested in a list using True Born, Scourges, the fliers and Hamonculous type units. What's my list making strategy if i wanted a list heavy with fliers, shooting and monsters?

Squallish
10-11-2010, 01:23
I'm looking at running a Duke/Baron list with Wyches with Haywires and Hellions, backed up by Ravagers and a unit of Trueborn with Splinter gear to utilize the Baron's special rule.

Essentially just look at the following, and make sure you have a good number of units to deal with each:

- Deathstars (Nob Bikerz, ThundWCav, etc...)
- Heavy Tanks
- Tank Spam
- Monstrous Cratures
- Horde
- MEQ

If you cover those bases, usually you can cover any list. With DE, you have the benefit of most of the troops dealing very well with Deathstars and MCs by piling on wounds with Poison.. and almost every choice in the list being cost effective against MEQ. Really you can just take 4-5 Troops, 3 Ravagers, a couple more anti-tank choices.. and you're good to go with anything you want.

Vaktathi
10-11-2010, 01:26
Basically, DE have both powerful shooting and CC, no matter how tough something is they can kill it relatively easily. Their problem is often quantity (they can kill land raiders and Trygons all day long, rather they find a problem in units like the basic Guardsmen where there stuff is overkill for what it does). DE CC is astounding, but can't do everything, especially when it comes to vehicles. DE shooting is great but often rather easy to bring down. From what I've seen, DE can reasonably go with a decent mix of shooting and assault or all shooting, but not really all assault. I think your Troops choices will dictate what you take in other slots. If you are taking 4-5 units of Wracks/Wyches, and the almost auto-include Incubi unit, then you'll want to use your remaining points and slots for packing in as many Dark Lances, Blasters and Splintercannons as you can, primarily the first two. If you go primarily for Warriors as troops, you can still go full tilt shooting with the other slots as you can cover all needed bases with shooting but will be a bit easier to take out and much more one dimensional, or you can load the other slots with CC units to get a more balanced army as with going primarily CC troops but with your killing power in more specialized and expensive units.

Basically what I'm saying is that your Troops will have a great effect on how the rest of your list will look. If your Troops are primarily CC oriented, the rest of your list will probably be rather shooting heavy. If your troops are very shooty, then you have a bit more flexibility, but will be very one-dimensional if you choose to go all shooty.

This is just a personal observation, I could be wrong, but that's what I'm perceiving from this book so far.

DarkCube
10-11-2010, 07:57
Why do you think Incubi are "must-takes"?

Vaktathi
10-11-2010, 08:07
Why do you think Incubi are "must-takes"?

They hit like the fist of an angry god against anything that isn't an MC or a tank, and don't cost an arm and a leg. They are an extremely cost efficient, power-weapon wielding, high init, decent strength, WS 5 unit that can actually weather a bit of firepower without needing pain tokens (big deal). They are great at carving through many elite heavy infantry units (9 Incubi fighting 5 TH/SS termi's, 198pts to 200, will inflict about 60% greater casualties than they'll take, fighting LC termi's they'll outkill them by about 3.5-1 ) and can generally be counted on to simply annihilate anything less. They're also relatively cheap for powerweapon wielding units. They're cheap, resilient heavy hitters.

Granted you can probably build competitive lists without them, but they are, at least in my opinion, as close to a "must buy" unit as one can get with the DE codex after Raiders.

archie-d
10-11-2010, 08:15
welcome to 5th ed.

isnt it marvelous!? :D

similar boat here, this is my first new army since vanilla marines and im loving it.

oCoYoRoAoKo
10-11-2010, 08:40
I have built my DE list in the exact same way as any other. Namely looking at the army as a whole and deciding what exactly i want it to do. Then i pick the units that will perform that role.

For example, when going for my current list i decided that i want a primaraly ranged, mobile list with strong anti-infantry and anti-tank elements (oh and a unit of grotesques just because i love them). As i am taking grotesques, a few of my choices will be almost mandatory.

So its decided that im bringing Grotesques already and im usually not one to take small amounts so for me that means 8 of them. This not only gives a strong anti-infantry core to the army but also a unit that is good for contesting objectives.

Following that, we need 1 or 2 WWPs because otherwise the grotesques will be stuck walking halfway up the field every game. Witht eh characters for those and the grotesques, thats almost a third of the list which has pretty much written itself.

Our best anti-tank is in heavy support, so a ravager and a pair of void raven enter the fray there (the ravens because they are multi-purpose with the missiles). 7 Lances are still a little short for a DE list so in goes a unit of blaster trueborn (they are to be my land raider repellant, delivering both my WWP and cracking open a tank turn 1).

I still have no troops, and the anti-infantry is looking a little weak. As i have no wish to get into combat outside of the grotesques, that means warriors in raiders, shredder and splinter canon. Two of those wll fit the bill nicely. Add in unit upgrades and you are all set.

So based on the original idea that i want grotesques with decent ranged anti infantry/tank, the list has written itself (more or less):

2 Haems, 1 with WWP

8 Grotesques

4 Trueborn, Blasters, Venom

2 x 10 Warriors, Shredder, Splinter Canon, Raider

Ravager

2 x Voidraven, Shattershards

Anti-Tank:
4 Void lances
5 Dark lances
4 Blasters

Anti Infantry:
8 Shattershard Missiles
2 Void Mines
16 Splinter Rifles
4 Splinter Cannon
2 Shredders
3 Liquifiers

Grotesques:
8 Grotesques

With vehicle and unit upgrades this comes to 1500 points. The whole idea is to decide what you want the army to do and then pick the units for it. As long as each one of your units has a purpose, and is designed to carry that purpose out, it won't matter if the choices you take are sub-optimal.

Cy.

GCMandrake
10-11-2010, 14:44
Remember to keep a balance between anti-tank and anti-infantry. You can take a massive number of dark lances, but face an ork horde, and you're going to lose. There isn't really any close combat units in the dark eldar army that are any good at taking out vehicles in close combat, so often addressing this balance means anti-tank shooting, and anti-infantry close combat. Obviously it's a good idea to have some anti-infantry firepower too in case you come across a infantry unit you really don't want to get into combat with (generally enemy CC experts).

Second thing to keep in mind is your mission objectives. If you're playing the standard missions from the rulebook, 2/3 of the time you're fighting over objectives and need scoring units. This means Warriors, Wyches or possibly Wracks (the three Ws). Two options here; either take dedicated objective huggers who do nothing else, or multi-purpose units who can be proactive in combating the enemy and which can then sit on objectives at the end of the game. A mixture is good. I'm leaning towards Wracks as my sole troops unit - there are better CC units than Wyches (i.e. Incubi) and better units for shooting than Warriors (Trueborn, Scourges, etc) - but Wracks are good all rounders.

My current thinking is two 5-man Wrack units with a Liquifier for holding onto the nearby objectives and going to ground when someone sneezes at them (3+ Cover and FNP is not bad by any standards) and two units of 10 Wracks w/ 2 Liquifiers, Acothyst, Agoniser and a Raider w/Flickerfield for going after enemy units, and then camping objectives towards the end of the game. Wracks are decent in CC with 3 poisoned attacks on the charge though not Fleet, are FNP by standard so if they wipe a unit out they get Furious Charge to bolster their abilities. Liquifier guns are AP3 or better half the time, so make big holes in MEQ units, and Agonisers are generally good against most things. The raider's Dark Lance gives some minimal anti-tank threat after the unit has disembarked, and the mobility it offers allows for easy closing onto objectives. However, as game length is random, be sure that from turn 5 onwards, they're within range of objectives, even if it means not pursuing enemies; better to lose out on a turn's combat by what will by then be a depleted unit, than lose the game.

For anti-tank, I'm liking the look of Ravagers. 3 Dark Lance shots for 105 points is good value, even if it is on a fairly vulnerable platform. Be sure to take a flickerfield for an extra bit of survivability. Use these to reduce enemy mobility, then use your own mobility to take on part of the enemy at a time; don't spread thinly.

For higher AV targets - Leman Russes, Land Raiders etc - a 3-man Reaver unit with a Heat Lance is cheap, and effective. You must be in 9" range for a Heat Lance to work properly, meaning if you blow a transport, the angry contents will end up charging and killing you. For Scourges, this is a deal breaker, but Reavers get the extra movement in the Assault Phase to move backwards, away from the angry but now distant enemy (well, assuming you have perfect distance approximation). Turbo boost them first turn to close the range and keep them alive, then start melting enemy tanks, with preference to high-AV targets that threaten your Raiders/Ravagers, ideally not transports to the Reavers alive.

Anti-Infantry means massive splinter fire, or close combat capabilities. Trueborn in Raiders/Venoms with various high-volume splinter weapons do the former nicely. Incubi do the latter. Incubi work best in small units; too large is expensive and overkill, and ideally you want the combat to last two turns so you don't get shot. Here's my choice; Haemonculus w/ Liquifier, 4 Incubi w/ Klavex upgrade and Demiklaives, Venom w/ Splintercannon upgrade. It's reasonably expensive, but you get an enormous amount of anti-infantry capability for the cost. Here's what you do:

Stick the Haemy and Incubi in the Venom. If you have first turn, start as far forward as possible, and hope the enemy doesn't seize initiative. If you're second, start in reserve and hope the enemy gets closer to you. Whichever happens, hug cover and advance. Incubi (despite the 3+ save) are fleet, so they can charge a long way out the Venom. Crucially though, the Haemonculus is not fleet. So when the Incubi jump out to go cut something to pieces, the Haemonculus stays in the Venom. The incubi take the pain token with them for FNP, and charge something with a good armour save, and preferably take 2 turns to kill them. 3+/FNP should protect you from regular attacks, but anything powered will hurt, so be careful. While your incubi are busy, the Venom remains a huge threat. Being able to fire 12 Splinter shots AND a liquifier into a unit will put the hurt on anything.

Spirit
10-11-2010, 14:57
Good thoughts so far and i'd like to hear more from Vaktathi too.

Just a few thoughts and questions?

Succubus, the throw away option?

Shredders no, disintagrators and Dark Lances yes?

Raiders over venoms except for maybe the Incubi?

I'm interested in a list using True Born, Scourges, the fliers and Hamonculous type units. What's my list making strategy if i wanted a list heavy with fliers, shooting and monsters?

Succubus: In my opinion only oes what the restof your army already does, which is kill troops.

The archon is where its at in my opinion, a shadow field and your choice of power weapon (usually huskblade + soul trap or agoniser) makes him beastly at taking down just about anything.

For troops, it really depends what you want, but generally, whatever you have in your raiders, put the opposite in the webways.

20 warriors coming out of a webway with 2 splinter cannons, a blaster and a hemonculus for feel no pain causes so much hurt its unreal.

If you have a haemonculus, remember that wracks become troops, and wracks are nasty, 3 attacks with poison 4+, 2 flame templates (usually one formt he wraks and one from a haemonculus) that can kill half a squad of marines with one lucky roll. And with the hemo they instantly get furious charge, meaning they re roll to wound vs T4. Very usefull unit indeed.

Wyches are a tarpit. Expect them to do almost nothing while the squad leader kills 1-2 per turn. Their dodge save, combined with shard nets, means they can really easily lock down a really nasty unit.

I usually put my archon with a squad of 9 wyches in a raider, its a really nice bodyguard for the cost i always think.

Reaver jetbikes are where its at. They can reach the enemy board edge turn 1, have a 3+ toughness save and kill units in droves just by moving over them.

Hellions, i havent tried these, but i think they are going to be pretty solid, 170 points for a basic 10 man unit with champ, that gives 20 poisoned shots per turn, 28 S4 attacks and 4 Poison(2+) attacks (champ gets a free venom blade for some reason! bonus)

One reasonably nasty trick for hellions/reavers is to start them with a hemoculus in the unit (giving the whole unit feel no pain) then turn one simply leave the hemonculus behind, "sharing the pain" so that the pain token stays with the hellions/reavers, this gives you an instant Feel no pain.

Not to mention rolling a 6 for a wych based army makes your entire army power up with a pain token lol.




Overall , i would say 2-3 hemoculi are key to a strong army, especially for a beginner. Dont underestimate the splinter weapons, they are awesome, and they fast stuff is VERY hard hitting, if fragile (much like the rest of the army.)

Ravenous
10-11-2010, 15:00
For me I wouldnt waste the points on Haemonculi unless you have units that would actually benefit from them i.e Wracks, Grotesques, Wyches, and Incubi.

Ive done a few lists and rolled them out and I keep going back to MSU style of 9 Venoms with 6 5 man squads of warriors with a blaster, 2 3 man Trueborn squads with 2 lances each, 1 4 man trueborn with 4 blasters and finally an Archon with blaster, huskblade, shadowfield, soultrap. Essentially using the tactic of kill your transports and then smash face at a distance. At 1850 the Archon becomes Vect although Im going to test him more to see if he is really worth it.

Other then the things I listed above that go well with the haemy I just dont see dark eldar as having a turn 4+ survivability, they have zero defense and 100% offense, so stay the hell out of combat unless you know you can win.

Orangecoke
10-11-2010, 15:54
Hey guys can you have more than 1 wwp? If you have 1 archon for example do you buy it twice? Can you have two in play at the same time?

Shards of Basalt
10-11-2010, 16:17
I'm thinking of getting at least one Haemonculus for the Hex Rifle.
A 36" range sniper rifle that you can fire on the move has... potential.

Ravenous
10-11-2010, 16:21
Hey guys can you have more than 1 wwp? If you have 1 archon for example do you buy it twice? Can you have two in play at the same time?

Buy the codex

Orangecoke
10-11-2010, 16:28
I have it - I should read it :)

fall3nang3l
10-11-2010, 20:32
I'm in the same boat. There are so many options to choose from I can't make a decision! I know I want a mounted raider list so WWP are probably out. I had no idea wracks were so useful but seeing as they have no models yet they're probably out until then. I'm pretty sure my heavies/AT are going to be 2 Ravagers and a razorwing (or voidraven) with 4 neurotoxin(or shatterfield) missiles.

As for troops I'm still on the fence. I'm leaning toward 2-3 warrior squads and maybe 1 wych squad.

Then probably an Archon with some incubi

but what I am at a loss for is what else to flesh out my army with. I can't decide between trueborn w/ shardcarbine in venom vs scourges, and hellions vs reavers as my fast-support.

I like them all too much.

thoughts on razorwing vs voidraven? neurotoxin vs shatterfield? archon with incubi or 2 squads of incubi with haemonculi?

Dio´Ra
10-11-2010, 22:37
The only problem I have is with picking HQ so far, so many fun options (some of them are overcosted) that it's hard to choose which two I want to include :cries:

The most easiest choice at the moment is heavy support, just spam 3 ravagers as the rest doesn't have models yet...

Wanted to do a whych army at first with Lelith/baron, but then again the baron is only in there so tha I can have more reaver and hellion units at the same time with the beast masters, yet the duke seems to be a better overall choice to help out a whych army...decisions...

The only unit in the whole codex which I'm going to avoid is going to be the mandrakes, cool concept, great new looks, but the rules are lacking compared to other elite choices and with only 3 poses of metal minis, thats a big pass for me.

Daklathen
11-11-2010, 00:03
I guess I could reiterate what others have said: Treat it like any other list. The sheer number of upgrades you can take to each unit/model is befuddling for most 40k players that didn't play in Rogue Trader days. I found that Warhammer Fantasy list building helped me with my choices.

I like flamers so I brought liquifier guns.

I like scratch building models and sculpting, so I chose wracks and grotesques.

I like biomechanical things, so I chose parasite and pain engines.

I wanted a heavy CC list, so I brought Wracks.

Really, it boils down to what you think is conceptually cool. This is such a well rounded codex, you actually don't have to worry about min/maxing and can just focus on how cool the army is.

fall3nang3l
11-11-2010, 00:38
I guess I could reiterate what others have said: Treat it like any other list. The sheer number of upgrades you can take to each unit/model is befuddling for most 40k players that didn't play in Rogue Trader days. I found that Warhammer Fantasy list building helped me with my choices.

I like flamers so I brought liquifier guns.

I like scratch building models and sculpting, so I chose wracks and grotesques.

I like biomechanical things, so I chose parasite and pain engines.

I wanted a heavy CC list, so I brought Wracks.

Really, it boils down to what you think is conceptually cool. This is such a well rounded codex, you actually don't have to worry about min/maxing and can just focus on how cool the army is.

but what if everything is cool1?!?!?

thechosenone
11-11-2010, 02:08
A thought occurs to me while i build some Wytches. Razor Flails are a bit wasted on regular wytches who might benefit more from net and impaler. With Bloodbrides however now your purchasing more rerollable hit/wounds. I think Hydra gauntlets are better on wytches to give more attacks and nets to keep them alive. Razorflail and net on bloodbrides to get more out of your extra attacks and keep them alive.

That's my thought so far

UberBeast
11-11-2010, 02:44
A thought occurs to me while i build some Wytches. Razor Flails are a bit wasted on regular wytches who might benefit more from net and impaler. With Bloodbrides however now your purchasing more rerollable hit/wounds. I think Hydra gauntlets are better on wytches to give more attacks and nets to keep them alive. Razorflail and net on bloodbrides to get more out of your extra attacks and keep them alive.

That's my thought so far

I've come to the same conclusion you have. I'm saving my razor flails for my next box of wyches which will be Bloodbrides. S&I, and Hydra gauntlets give you pretty close to the same benefit for regular wyches as for BBs, while razor flails are actually getting you more bang for the buck in the hands of the brides thanks to the extra profile attacks.

thechosenone
11-11-2010, 14:34
So am i wrong or is there nothing forcing the Court of the Acheron to actually be attached to the acheron?

Hashmal
11-11-2010, 16:08
So am i wrong or is there nothing forcing the Court of the Acheron to actually be attached to the acheron?

Nothing whatsoever that I've seen. There is no mandate he deploys with them.

I'm not enthused by them as a unit, which is fine by me: this Codex has so many good choices that having one or two less-than-stellar units treats me perfectly.

I'll just echo what everyone else has said: buy things you like and field them. Try for some synergy. Make sure your standard bases are covered:

-Can you deal with Monstrous Cre- oh wait, Poisoned Weapons. :evilgrin:
-Can you deal with Mech? How much Mech do you normally face?
-Do you have the throughput to clear a horde?
-Can you deal with a death star?
-Can you reliably claim objectives?

The Codex has several answers to the above questions, which are what I ask myself every time I put together a list. For DE, here are my personal answers:

1. Poisoned Weapons. lol.
2. Yes. Blasters where I can find them. Haywire Grenades on some Wyches. I tend to face a fair amount of mech, especially of the Guard variety, so I need to go heavier here. Heavy Support to taste; I also prefer Ravagers because I go more model-heavy.
3. Kind of. I favor Splinter Cannons, but that's it. Hordes are rarer around these parts, so I shift the balance away from horde clear.
4. Absolutely. Love my Incubi. I disagree that they are a must-buy, but they are *really* darned good.
5. Yes. I do not run with fewer than 5 Troops choices of 10 models each. If you eliminate them all, you'll beat me. Good luck with that.