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Psygon
10-11-2010, 02:36
My thoughts on this matter were sparked by the current thread by Aaron Chapman somewhere in this forum, where he has posted a .pdf with statistical probabilites on several key factors of the Warhammer game. The table is great, I even printed out several copies for my gaming group, and did the same with (what I believe was) his Seventh Edition probability table.

However, would people consider using the Math-Hammer table while activiely playing the game cheating, in some form or another? I can see the problem arising somewhere in the world, maybe even in cases when you had offered to let your opponent use the table, but they refused, saying such a thing shouldn't be used in warhammer.

Thoughts?

P.S., It vaguely reminds me of a thread I read back in Seventh Edition, about using a calculator and the Pythagorean Theorem to "guess" ranges for warmachines.

Lord Inquisitor
10-11-2010, 02:51
This crops up from time to time and it always amuses me.

Is working out and knowing important dice probabilities in a game of dice cheating?

NO!

Using probability maths is called being smart. What's next? Is using tactics against the opponent cheating? :p

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
10-11-2010, 02:52
I can't see why such a sheet would be a cheating, it's not revealing some kind of hidden knowledge or something. Personally I wouldn't use it myself but that would be out of pride more than propriety.

papabearshane
10-11-2010, 02:57
I think pausing the game so you can look at your little sheat of paper and try to get the best possible units fighting the best possible foe is kinda lame, but its not cheating...............

For me, I just use my old noggin to do the quick calculations of dice chance in my head as my opponent sets up his units......................Tactics................ ......

But pulling out a little pieace of paper and saying that you should kill about 5.27 models and then wiff your attacks is just plain funny.......................

Make it a fun game and dont try so hard and youd be supprised with how much fun you have...............................

Psygon
10-11-2010, 02:58
This crops up from time to time and it always amuses me.

Is working out and knowing important dice probabilities in a game of dice cheating?

NO!

Using probability maths is called being smart. What's next? Is using tactics against the opponent cheating? :p

My point was more about the use of an aid (in this case, the .pdf), rather than calculating the probabilities out in your head, like all other normal people do.

Geep
10-11-2010, 03:03
I already know most dice probabilties off by heart (many years of wargaming+boring classes/lectures/bus trips). I wouldn't consider an opponent using a 'cheat sheet' against me as actually cheating, just helping to even things up.

The only thing I wouldn't like is if this seriously slows the game down. I've had experienced opponents who struggle with the 'to hit'/ 'to wound' tables (strange IMO they have to physically reference them at all)- I'd hate to see them struggle through dice probablities for every encounter.

Lord Inquisitor
10-11-2010, 03:06
My point was more about the use of an aid (in this case, the .pdf), rather than calculating the probabilities out in your head, like all other normal people do.
I have a similar sheet that I've worked out myself, I rarely use it but I have it for those dodgy situations. It doesn't take long to pull it out and work out the optimums... a lot quicker than me trying to work out multiple probability values in my head!

No, I don't think an "aid" is cheating either, whether you work it out yourself or not. It's just a set of probability tables. You need to take those numbers and come up with a way of turning that information into tactics.

For what it's worth, I don't regard using pythagoras as cheating either! Indeed I regard it as smart as long as you don't take too long about it. Indeed, I've done it myself... not to the point of busting out a calculator, but there are certain pythagorean patterns you can recognise and do in your head.

enyoss
10-11-2010, 03:13
I don't see it as cheating at all.

However, it would be slightly tedious to play against someone who keeps referring to a crib sheet when deciding whether to attack model A or model B. I suppose that, for me, part of the charm of the game is making spur of the moment decisions based on rough `in your head' calculations, and having look up tables kind of detracts from that. It's a bit like video replays in soccer... not against the rules, but probably against the elegance.

zuriel45
10-11-2010, 03:14
This crops up from time to time and it always amuses me.

Is working out and knowing important dice probabilities in a game of dice cheating?

NO!

Using probability maths is called being smart. What's next? Is using tactics against the opponent cheating? :p

To start with i'll answer the question of is it cheating? I'd say it really depends on the situation, but most likely no. However it does depend.

Knowing dice probabilities is different than having a cheat sheet. I'm in the midist of prepping for my physics GRE in 3 days and i'm spending time memorizing the formula's i'll need. It would be cheating if i brought them to the test.

Part of me says that part of stratagy is prep, which sometimes means memorizing probabilities. Another part of me(the one that brings a copy with me lol) says if i have time to do that i'll paint.

It really comes down to your oppenent. If you have the sheet than by pure decency you offer to share it with him as he/she needs it. If they don't like the sheet you put it away. Plain and simple. Make sure both sides have the opportunity to use it.

I'd consider it cheating if you used it and your opponent said not to, or you used it without offering (and esspecially once being asked) to share with him.

Torpedo Vegas
10-11-2010, 03:27
i have to agree with Lord Inquisitor. Using math-hammer is just being smart, and for some armies, it is essential to victory. With my Empire army for fantasy and Guard for 40k, I always have to mathhammer things up, simply to get the most effectiveness out of my weak but plentiful troops.

Lord Inquisitor
10-11-2010, 03:27
Knowing dice probabilities is different than having a cheat sheet. I'm in the midist of prepping for my physics GRE in 3 days and i'm spending time memorizing the formula's i'll need. It would be cheating if i brought them to the test.
Firstly, shouldn't you be revising instead of playing on Warseer? :p

That said, if you worked in a physics lab, you wouldn't be expected to memorise the formulae and if doing actual physics, you'd be encouraged to check your formulae rather than working from memory!

I get your point, but surely the next logical progression would be to deny your opponent from looking things up in his army book? I've memorised my army's rules, why shouldn't you have to?

R-Love
10-11-2010, 04:00
I fail to see how this could be a problem. If there is anything I have learned from playing this game, it is that the mere act of possessing such a reference, even if it is never referred to, would bring the Divine Wrath of the Dice Gods upon your head before you could blink. I will ignore your fancy-smancy "probabilities" and stick to my ritual sacrifice, thank you very much. I hope you enjoy those 1's :evilgrin:

Abaraxas
10-11-2010, 05:43
I fail to see how this could be a problem. If there is anything I have learned from playing this game, it is that the mere act of possessing such a reference, even if it is never referred to, would bring the Divine Wrath of the Dice Gods upon your head before you could blink. I will ignore your fancy-smancy "probabilities" and stick to my ritual sacrifice, thank you very much. I hope you enjoy those 1's :evilgrin:

This is spot on for me.

I play (when I do) mostly 2nd edition and keeping references and notes is pretty much essential there-but the game is played best without too much deliberation etc.

EDIT: sorry everybody I thought I was in the 40k section *facepalm*

zuriel45
10-11-2010, 06:04
Firstly, shouldn't you be revising instead of playing on Warseer? :p

That said, if you worked in a physics lab, you wouldn't be expected to memorise the formulae and if doing actual physics, you'd be encouraged to check your formulae rather than working from memory!

I get your point, but surely the next logical progression would be to deny your opponent from looking things up in his army book? I've memorised my army's rules, why shouldn't you have to?

haha you caught me. I've actually been studying all day (and night) and needed a break, what better way to break than to watch warseer drama unfold :D.

I agree with you actually in the end, just some people might not see it that way (i have a bad habit of playing devils advocate just for fun even if i don't agree). Also the difference between having them memorize their book comes down to the books are already a part of the game, but having a cheat sheet that isn't officially provided to every player does make the game "unfair".

Again, i'm of the opinion that you always share the sheet, and if they don't want it on the table (or within your visible range) you put it away for their sake, and just not mention how much of it you have stored in memory :D

R Man
10-11-2010, 06:07
I certainly can't see it as cheating. If it was couldn't we say that reading your army book's reference sheet is cheating.

Besides, it not like mathhammer actually predicts anything, or makes troops fight better. In most cases it will simply tell people what is already obvious, but in more detail. Its just a form of notation.

People throw the word 'cheating' around far too casually. Cheating is doing things like: Taking extra points, pretending your unit stats are higher than they are, rolling extra dice and so on.

Jind_Singh
10-11-2010, 06:30
nah - bring it on! Dice are dice, tables are tables - never confuse the 2!

Ironmonger
10-11-2010, 06:44
I fail to see how this could be a problem. If there is anything I have learned from playing this game, it is that the mere act of possessing such a reference, even if it is never referred to, would bring the Divine Wrath of the Dice Gods upon your head before you could blink. I will ignore your fancy-smancy "probabilities" and stick to my ritual sacrifice, thank you very much. I hope you enjoy those 1's :evilgrin:

No, I wouldn't call this cheating at all... in fact, I'd encourage any and everyone who wished to bring such a table with them to the game, just for the pleasure I'll derive from all the whining and tears when things don't go how they're 'supposed to.' :rolleyes:

Mathhammer? I dub thee FAILHAMMER.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
10-11-2010, 07:57
Ironmonger said it best.

You really just need to be able to do some rough maths in your head, dice will quite often surprise you anyway :)

LAV-Kitsune-
10-11-2010, 09:07
Not cheating but definately tedious if your opponent looks the paper all the time and spends lots of time pondering where he should assault and how badly would his outnumbered troops do. Instead of referring something like this people should just learn to calculate odds in their head. With 6-sided die it is actually really easy, as most of the time its only half of your attacks hit/wound or third of your attacks hit/miss. It really isnt any rocked science.

Scythe
10-11-2010, 09:15
I already know most dice probabilties off by heart (many years of wargaming+boring classes/lectures/bus trips). I wouldn't consider an opponent using a 'cheat sheet' against me as actually cheating, just helping to even things up.

The only thing I wouldn't like is if this seriously slows the game down. I've had experienced opponents who struggle with the 'to hit'/ 'to wound' tables (strange IMO they have to physically reference them at all)- I'd hate to see them struggle through dice probablities for every encounter.

This, basically. Such reference cannot be called cheating, but it could get annoying for the opponent if someone spend half an hour per battle studying the sheet and considering what to do best. It possibly drags the game, which shouldn't be the goal.

Skalfgrimm
10-11-2010, 09:24
Ironmonger said it best.

You really just need to be able to do some rough maths in your head, dice will quite often surprise you anyway :)

How can a d6 surprise me? If it rolls a 7, maybe...

But I agree with the spirit of the post, knowing the probabilities will not change them.
Although it allows for better planning in certain situations.

I would never bring such a sheet to a game. I would be too embarassed to play with it. I work out propabilites in my head, its not like some d6- rolls require that much calculation anyway.

But is it cheating? No, unless my opponent would spend entirely too much time with the sheet and slows down the game Id have no problem at all.

zeebie
10-11-2010, 10:32
talk about sucking the fun out of a game, I don't think it cheating, but I know I wouldn't do it, as that just isn't fun. What's next a phone app, where you put in models types and locations and phone tells you which models to attack based on probability of charge success and combat outcome. The scariest thing about that, is that app would actually be rather easy to make.

Urgat
10-11-2010, 10:32
It's not cheating, because most of the time the dice results fly in the face of probabilities anyway. You're still giong to fluff your attacks wether you match fights based on this sheet :p
ALmways makes me laugh when the dude charges his khorne knights in my gobs, claims "you're now owned", and proceeds to roll six 1 and five 2 to hit :D
It would be cheating if it used its mutant superpowers to force the dies to roll whatever it thinks they should roll.
My own sheet table is as follows: consider that fight, and suppose the worst result possible, and then build from there >>

theunwantedbeing
10-11-2010, 11:03
P.S., It vaguely reminds me of a thread I read back in Seventh Edition, about using a calculator and the Pythagorean Theorem to "guess" ranges for warmachines.

That's not cheating either.
Although it is rather unsporting as you are effectively, but not actually "measuring" the range for a guess when your supposed to be guessing.

Nothing wrong with doing it in your head of course, but getting a calcuator out and working it out that way is rather iffy, although using an abacus or similar wouldn't be. Presumably because warhammer doesn't have electronic calculators, but they presumably do have abacus'.

DaemonReign
10-11-2010, 11:36
I don't think this is cheating at all.

I am personally too stupid to wager these probabilities though so I just go "all in" for the submerged fluff-fun experience of it all.

Losing can be as interesting as winning if it happens by ways that are "statistically unlikely" enough!

Chris_
10-11-2010, 12:00
I wouldn't mind, I do this all the time in my head. Why shouldn't someone who is not as familiar with maths get the same chance? If it was seriously slowing down the game however...

AMWOOD co
10-11-2010, 12:17
Cheating to use a cheat sheet? Heck no!

As for slowing the game with probabilities, you can ask my buddies and they'll say that I slow the game down at times, sitting there asking myself if I should take the 30% gamble that will win me the game or the 100% method that will only get me a little closer. All this without a cheat sheet.

Expand your mind, play MathHammer!