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Killingspree
10-11-2010, 04:07
Without going into painful details I essentially want to make a skaven list without using a doomwheel, WLC and preferably no magic. The army would be heavily converted with a Chinese massive army type feel (back banners, lots of guys, etc). But on the same hand I need the army to perform, aka I will be taking it to tournaments. As such, here is the following list i came up with for 2k. (Oh originally i had queek and svermin but found out that special k's aren't allowed at most tournies, a good thing in my mind but sad none the less, so the whole list got DRAMATICALLY changed.)

Feel free to tear it apart but please provide why you would do so. Bear in mind I do play orcs and Vamps so am quite familiar with horde style lists.

REVISED LIST
LORD [12.8%]
Warlord w/ Blade of Corruption, Charmed Shield,
Talisman of Preservation, Other Trickster's Shard
rides a Bonebreaker 255

HEROES [6%]
Chieftan BSB w/ Storm Banner 120

CORE [46.4%]
Slaves x80 w/ spears, champ 206
Slaves x80 w/ spears, champ 206
Clanrats x24 Std 104 <-----------BSB goes here.
-Poison Wind Mortar 65
Stormvermin x36 FC 277 <-------Warlord goes here.
-Warpfire Thrower 70

SPECIAL [22.2%]
Gutter Runners x10 w/ slings and Poison 180 <---May be split into two units.
Rat Ogres x6 Ogres, x3 Packmasters 264

RARE [11.8%]
Hell Pit Abomination 235
=1982

REVISED IDEA/CURRENT QUESTIONS (This is constantly updated):
Well guys this looks like what I will aim for and make changes as the losses rack up :p. Thanks for all the help!

K/S

vorthain
10-11-2010, 18:00
I guess I don't really understand what is going to do the damage in this army. If I faced this army, I would take out the rat ogres immediately and take my time picking my fights on the rest. Also, I think spears are generally considered less effective than shields+hand weapon - those clanrats probably won't be hurting much themselves. Perhaps some gutter runners as scouts would work. The lack of shooting, movement (all those big units are going nerf your maneuverability), magic, and little combat ability makes this an interesting looking list but I'm not sure how effective it will be in tourines.

Killingspree
10-11-2010, 21:48
I absolutely agree that aside from the chieftain and ogre units there isn't really any punch, but what units add punch to begin with? The rats aren't really known for combat prowess, but I definitely agree that the list needs more punch. Here is my thoughts:

Drop 3 Chiefs and one of the 36man clanrat units
Gives me 323 pts. (7 pts from leftover too, so 330)
Drop 1 Rat Ogre unit
Gives me 594 pts
Add 2 HPA's (Hell Pit Abomination)
Leaves me 124 pts
Add 10 Gutter Runners
Leaves me 4 pts

I'm kind of iffy about this though, are HPA's combat monsters? Do they actually do well? Oh and here is food for thought, if I drop 4 of the remaining 5 chiefs along with their clanrats, I can instead go with 49 stormvermin FC unit.

Vorthain - Only reason for spears on the clanrats is for an extra rank of attacks since the first rank is all char's. I definitely agree about HW+S tho, if they were stand alone that would be how they would be armed. Spears on slaves in horde is the way to go tho, if you ask me. Thank you for the response by the way!!!

I guess my question is, how do I add more punch to the list aside from rat ogres?

K/S

vorthain
11-11-2010, 15:34
Alright so the general rule is that 2 HPAs is cheesy. Also, I don't think you have have duplicate rares in non-grand armies (ie. <3000 pts). They are absolute monsters in combat though, so one should suffice. Given you don't want the doomwheel or warp lightning cannon, there is also the fourth rare choice to look at: the plagueclaw catapult. They are very accurate with the new stonethrower rules, plus a large template that ignores armor saves is nothing to scoff at for 100 pts. That, and they are about 1/3 the cost of a HPA to boot. Something to consider.

I would also consider using less Gutter Runners but add poison. They are pretty killer for sneaking up on enemy warmachines that will be targeting your huge blocks of rats. They add punch for sure.

TheDrugLordX
11-11-2010, 23:33
That, and they are about 1/3 the cost of a HPA to boot.

Really man? Go back to school, I don't want to be mean but that's just way of :D

As for your list, HPAs are the heaviest hitting thing you can get, and about the heaviest (most points effective) thing you can get in the warhammer world to beat infantry in combat. Most people say they are cheezy, but if you can't play with them correctly, and your opponent is familiar dealing with them, they tend to go down quick. 1 HPA is about the same points as 6 Rat Ogres, the HPA trumphs rat ogres every time.

One of your chieftains is equal to 7 stormvermin (almost anyway). If you want raw hitting power, I say 7 WS4 S4 attackrs trumph 3 WS5 S5 attacks. In addition you get 5 additional wounds. Sure they will not all strike (if in a big unit), but considering how easy your chieftains die neither will they.

I hope you're aware that you're running no magic? Skaven magic is devastating, I'd like to se a seer there.

A shame you don't like Doom Wheels, used correctly they're even nastier than HPAs.

vorthain
12-11-2010, 03:18
Really man? Go back to school, I don't want to be mean but that's just way of :D

My mistake - I was going off memory and was thinking they were 50 pts more, 65 pts more with spikes, making my math good, just my memory poor.

Also, killingspree said he preferred no magic - though I agree it is something of a shame given how great it is. However, another thing to think about in a magic-free force would be a warlock engineer with a death globe or doom rocket - those are nasty combos. Also, I just noticed there is a conspicuous lack of weapon teams - is that also on purpose?

ASTINOFF
12-11-2010, 05:05
you need some weapon teams, maybe a Poison wind mortar, it can move and fire!

Killingspree
12-11-2010, 07:07
REVISED IDEA/CURRENT QUESTIONS (This is constantly updated):
This list essentially was created after quite a few points you guys made.
1. HPA is awesome. I guess the random movement was just giving me a bad vibe but after you look at the sheer power, why wouldn't you take one?! (now I can't wait to try him out, a shame it will take months for me to sculpt and then paint the model but in all fairness the whole army has to be converted :p)
2. Gutter Runners pay a premium for poison but it is really worth it! Question though, scout or sneaky infiltrate?
3. Those chieftains were nice, would have looked cool but after a few mock dice roll battles.... Absolutely not worth it. Would have sure looked cool though.
4. Pretty much had a modeling idea for the ogres but it needed a character to join them. Love the new Monstrous Cav rules by the way. With the Bonebreaker the Warlord has four wounds and +1 save! So I have two questions though, Is this unit and character worth the points from what you have seen? Is the character set-up well?
5. I agree that Skaven magic is brutal but I am really trying to stay away from it at the 2000 point level. It's nice but I want to see if it's possible to do without. If the army repeatedly gets rocked over and over, the SEER button will be pressed.
6. My last point and question is about the weapon teams. I didn't put them in the list because they are rather expensive and my BSB carries the storm banner which could delegate them to useless. So my question is, in your experience, should I take them even though I have a storm banner on the BSB? I could always scrap the Mtd Warlord's gear and some Gutter Runners to add two weapon teams (albeit this would probably make the Mtd Warlord a moot point and not cost effective)

So I have revised the list essentially and have some new questions. I really really appreciate the feedback!! It is very helpful.

K/S

TheDrugLordX
12-11-2010, 09:29
My comments in green.


REVISED IDEA/CURRENT QUESTIONS (This is constantly updated):
This list essentially was created after quite a few points you guys made.
Glad to be of help!
1. HPA is awesome. I guess the random movement was just giving me a bad vibe but after you look at the sheer power, why wouldn't you take one?! (now I can't wait to try him out, a shame it will take months for me to sculpt and then paint the model but in all fairness the whole army has to be converted :p)
Well, GW is releasing a new model for him in january. My latest list has 3 of these beasts (one converted to something else) and I plan to wait and see how their sculpt comes out.
2. Gutter Runners pay a premium for poison but it is really worth it! Question though, scout or sneaky infiltrate?
They're powerful. I only play with 5 since, no matter how big they are, they're still kinda hit-or-miss. If you split yours into 3 groups of 5 you get more diversity (altough some more vulnerbility to panic), and that way you can choose to scout some and infiltrate the others :)
3. Those chieftains were nice, would have looked cool but after a few mock dice roll battles.... Absolutely not worth it. Would have sure looked cool though.
4. Pretty much had a modeling idea for the ogres but it needed a character to join them. Love the new Monstrous Cav rules by the way. With the Bonebreaker the Warlord has four wounds and +1 save! So I have two questions though, Is this unit and character worth the points from what you have seen? Is the character set-up well?
Rat Ogres actually do fine on their own, the ones needing a combat boost are your core infantry, so I'd rather put him there. Though, your conversion/diorama ideas comes first ofcourse! :)

The skaven warlord on bonebreaker is an extremely powerful fighter, and always worth his points. I like your build, but he's a bit vulnerable to cannon fire (remember you get no LOS roll). Here's what I usually run with when running him:

Warlord w/ Bonebreaker
Blade of Corruption, Charmed Shield, Talisman of Preservation, The Other Trickster Shard

He pretty much laughs at cannons (especially with the storm banner) whilst maybe even increasing combat power? This guy is so tough I trust him to be my general, and he's yet to die once.
5. I agree that Skaven magic is brutal but I am really trying to stay away from it at the 2000 point level. It's nice but I want to see if it's possible to do without. If the army repeatedly gets rocked over and over, the SEER button will be pressed.
Okay, too bad for you:p
6. My last point and question is about the weapon teams. I didn't put them in the list because they are rather expensive and my BSB carries the storm banner which could delegate them to useless. So my question is, in your experience, should I take them even though I have a storm banner on the BSB? I could always scrap the Mtd Warlord's gear and some Gutter Runners to add two weapon teams (albeit this would probably make the Mtd Warlord a moot point and not cost effective)
The Storm Banner is usually activated on the first turn, and since skaven weapon teams don't get to shoot untill turn 2 or 3 anyways (except for the poison wind mortar) they don't loose that much really. You could always run the Doom Flayer (which is a beast) if u're afraid of loosing your teams capability through the banner.

K/S

Cheers

vorthain
12-11-2010, 18:49
The doom flayer is a beast

I have been on the fence lately about fielding the doom flayer - it seems incredibly vulnerable to missile fire and its low Initiative means that it will likely get struck first in melee. That one wound making it through its 3+ save costs 55 pts. Have you had good luck with it?

Also, given how situational and dangerous to the user the Blade of Corruption is, I would suggest a halberd or Weeping Blade. After all, the weeping blade is just slightly weaker but can multiply into more wounds (if you plan on putting your warlord against multi-wound enemies), ends up with the same armor modifier, and doesn't have the potential to hurt the bearer.

Finally, I think for 2000 pts, one HPA is enough for friendly matches, especially to start with while building your force. Everything else DrugLord said sounds good.

Killingspree
13-11-2010, 01:48
The new list is at the top with only two questions. I agree with you vorthain, for 55 pts the doomflayer seems awfully pricey for how vulnerable it is.

The blade of corruption is gonna be a trial run. I am both for and against it but for the price tag I feel its a steal.

Thank you guys!!!

K/S

vorthain
13-11-2010, 04:58
1. As for the lord, I really like the set up (although as Vorthain said, roll two one's and the lord isn't going to be happy anymore) but I am confused about the shard. Won't the shard cause the warlord to have to reroll his own ward save?
2. Is the warpfire throwers the way to go? They seemed the most nasty to me, with the PWM coming in a close second.


The Other Trickster's Shard only applies to models in base to base contact. Your warlord seems to be tooled up to fight enemy characters or big beasties (ward save, ignoring wards, multiplied wound weapon), but frankly he's going to get shot up before he gets there in some cases. This is especially because (if I remember correctly) the Bonebreaker is a different category than regular rogres. With that in mind, maybe the Ironcurse Icon would protect the unit better from enemy fire? Its up to you, but if I was fighting this army, the six rat ogres with bonbreaker-mounted warlord and the HPA will be drawing the most fire - and taking out the warlord's leadership is killer against rats.

Warpfire Thrower is generally the way to go. It is strong, causes panic, and if you're close enough to use it, there is a fair chance it can still harm enemies if you get the run-then-explode misfire result. The only downside is it can't move and shoot. The Poison Wind Mortar is next best, if only because it can move and shoot - and do so from the relative safety of behind friendly units. It is best in big battles against big enemy blocks. After that, it drops off to the fragile, situational doom-flayer and the limited use ratling gun. I've heard success stories with the doom-flayer (and I'm on the fence on whether to field one myself), but it has a low initiative fighting in melee, allowing one spear or sword to get a lucky hit first and cost you 55 pts.

Killingspree
13-11-2010, 16:36
The Other Trickster's Shard only applies to models in base to base contact. Your warlord seems to be tooled up to fight enemy characters or big beasties (ward save, ignoring wards, multiplied wound weapon), but frankly he's going to get shot up before he gets there in some cases. This is especially because (if I remember correctly) the Bonebreaker is a different category than regular rogres. With that in mind, maybe the Ironcurse Icon would protect the unit better from enemy fire? Its up to you, but if I was fighting this army, the six rat ogres with bonbreaker-mounted warlord and the HPA will be drawing the most fire - and taking out the warlord's leadership is killer against rats.


I'm sorry about the confusion, the Warlord should be with the stormvermin not the rat ogres. And you are absolutely correct about the Bonebreaker. The bonebreaker is a warbeast so if a warlord rides one it becomes Monstrous Cavalry (there is no other monstrous cavalry in skaven so the Bonebreaker can never get a LOS roll). However, the Warlord does gain a wound because Monstrous Cavalry is treated as one model using the highest wounds characteristic of either the mount or rider. (I wish you could use the bonebreaker's toughness!!)
Do think that I should bring in another warlord that just sits in the back as the general, just in case?
Vorthain, your ideas about the warpfire and PWM mirrored my own but still leaves me in the debate over whether or not, for this points level and list, should I take one or the other. I'm thinking about taking one of each and seeing how it goes to be quite honest.

As always I really appreciate the replies!

K/S

vorthain
13-11-2010, 18:57
I don't think its necessary to bring a second warlord, you just have to be careful with him.

I take one of each (WFT & PWM) in my 1250 list. I would definitely take one of each in this large list too. The main drawback of the WFT is that it cannot move and shoot, which aggravates its short (2-10 inch) range. Essentially you have to move it into a good position, then wait for the enemy to do his turn without shooting it up or moving into a bad position.

The mortar is great, however, because it has a good range and relative safety in the back of the army using its parent unit's line of sight. It can also move and shoot, which should keep it alive longer. Auto-wounding on 5+ and ignoring armor saves is huge against high toughness, high armor units like Chaos Warriors and Dwarfs, though it really shines when there are multiple big units of those where it can scatter and still off quite a few enemies.

Killingspree
13-11-2010, 20:52
LORD [12.8%]
Warlord w/ Blade of Corruption, Charmed Shield,
Talisman of Preservation, Other Trickster's Shard
rides a Bonebreaker 255

HEROES [6%]
Chieftan BSB w/ Storm Banner 120

CORE [46.4%]
Slaves x80 w/ spears, champ 206
Slaves x80 w/ spears, champ 206
Clanrats x24 Std 104 <-----------BSB goes here.
-Poison Wind Mortar 65
Stormvermin x36 FC 277 <-------Warlord goes here.
-Warpfire Thrower 70

SPECIAL [22.2%]
Gutter Runners x10 w/ slings and Poison 180 <---May be split into two units.
Rat Ogres x6 Ogres, x3 Packmasters 264

RARE [11.8%]
Hell Pit Abomination 235
=1982


Looks like this will be the list I am going to go for. Might end making some changes, like dropping some slaves or changing to hand weapons on them but for now, this is going to the target goal. Thanks for all the feedback guys, really appreciate it!

K/S

vorthain
13-11-2010, 21:26
Looks strong. The only thing I would recommend - and I think its the consensus - is that clanrats and skavenslaves should be armed with hand weapons and shields, not spears. It is very unlikely that 16 clanrat attacks will do noticeably more damage than 11 (spears vs. hand weapons), but a 6+ ward from parrying with hand weapons when they get struck means more will survive, keeping that unit large enough to keep tarpitting enemies until the HPA or rat ogres can get to their flanks.

Killingspree
13-11-2010, 23:32
Hmmmm, what I might do is drop the unit sizes and switch to hw+s. Extra points can go to another rat ogre unit for additional punch. Will keep this in mind. Thanks a ton!

K/S