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The Grim
10-11-2010, 05:55
The other day I was flanking a unit of a single rank knights with my guys and my opponent had set his champion on this very side so that he was the only model in contact with my flanking unit. He then said I had to direct All my attacks to the champion and could not target usual rank and file guys. Is this true?

T10
10-11-2010, 06:47
You cannot direct attacks against the non-champion rank-and-file because those models are not in base contact with your models.

-T10

Lord_Elric
10-11-2010, 11:55
Wrong the champion is still effectivly a RnF model he is NOT a character. the only limitation is that "unless" you direct attacks at the champion your opponent does not have to remove him until hes the last model in the unit.

if the model is question was a hero level character or grater then you would be forced to only target him.

It would be like saying you could only kill 5 model in a unit a at time cus those are the only models that your in base contact with

The Grim
10-11-2010, 13:11
Hm, now I'm confused.

T10
10-11-2010, 14:04
Hm, now I'm confused.

It helps if you disregard this.


Wrong the champion is still effectivly a RnF model he is NOT a character. the only limitation is that "unless" you direct attacks at the champion your opponent does not have to remove him until hes the last model in the unit.

if the model is question was a hero level character or grater then you would be forced to only target him.

It would be like saying you could only kill 5 model in a unit a at time cus those are the only models that your in base contact with

Let's just for a moment assume that the above is correct. This makes the assumption that you can always fight against rank-and-file models even if the only model you can contact is the champion. So how about a night goblin (WS 2) fighting a Giant Slayer champion (WS 5). Should he be allowed to work out his attack against a rank-and-file Troll Slayer (WS 4)?

Of course not. He needs to be in base contact with a Troll Slayer in order to do so. Imagine if the champion was the last model in the unit. Wouldn't it be sweet to just attack against the WS 4 of a regular rank-and-fil model (4+ to hit) instead of the champion (5+ to hit)?

If the champion model is the only model in base contact then any attacks you make are directed against this model.

-T10

Lord_Elric
10-11-2010, 15:10
It helps if you disregard this.



Let's just for a moment assume that the above is correct. This makes the assumption that you can always fight against rank-and-file models even if the only model you can contact is the champion. So how about a night goblin (WS 2) fighting a Giant Slayer champion (WS 5). Should he be allowed to work out his attack against a rank-and-file Troll Slayer (WS 4)?

Of course not. He needs to be in base contact with a Troll Slayer in order to do so. Imagine if the champion was the last model in the unit. Wouldn't it be sweet to just attack against the WS 4 of a regular rank-and-fil model (4+ to hit) instead of the champion (5+ to hit)?

If the champion model is the only model in base contact then any attacks you make are directed against this model.

-T10

Give me a page reference to this that explains that you cant hit RnF models because of a champion ???? "not a character as that is a different situation"

Hell ill quote it myself BRB page 93 "enemy models CAN direct attacks against a champion model if they WISH"

the champion is simply a command model it is not a character it just follows 1 or 2 of the same rules it is still consideredc a RnF model for all intents there is NO RAW too being forced to direct all attacks at a champion

Deacon Bane
10-11-2010, 15:23
The only reference I could find is page48, "Normally a warrior can only strike blows against an enemy model in base contact."

Lord_Elric
10-11-2010, 15:27
The only reference I could find is page48, "Normally a warrior can only strike blows against an enemy model in base contact."

And what seperates a champion from the other rank and file troops it says you can direct attacks at him not that you have to if only in base contact with him. it goes onto state that by directing attacks at a champion is the only way he can be removed before other rnf models..outside a challenge..

There is nothing that forces that if your only in base contact with a champion you "have" to direct all attack at him... though i belive there is something to that effect within the character rules.

AMWOOD co
10-11-2010, 16:59
There is nothing that forces that if your only in base contact with a champion you "have" to direct all attack at him... though i belive there is something to that effect within the character rules.

The character rules give a reminder that you can only attack models in base contact (p99 last paragraph). This would be referring back to page 48 as quoted above. Page 99 goes on about an example with a character.

In the case of a model that is only in base contact with a champion, the normal rank and file are not in contact with said model, so he must direct his attacks at the champion. I believe the 'if you wish' of the champion's rules assume that you will be in contact with another model.

a18no
10-11-2010, 17:01
Assuming that is true, a singe line of 5 slayer's champion has no purpose, since you can just attack the "unit".

That idea is cool, I'll check in deatil later, but seem like a good call

Lord_Elric
10-11-2010, 17:14
The character rules give a reminder that you can only attack models in base contact (p99 last paragraph). This would be referring back to page 48 as quoted above. Page 99 goes on about an example with a character.

In the case of a model that is only in base contact with a champion, the normal rank and file are not in contact with said model, so he must direct his attacks at the champion. I believe the 'if you wish' of the champion's rules assume that you will be in contact with another model.

A Champion is not a character however that it my piont
Champion are RnF command models that is all they share a number of rules with characters but ARE NOT characters.

They can accept challenges like characters
They can be targeted seperatly like characters
They benefit from LOS rolls Like characters that is it
and i Belive they can make way like characters???? EDIT Scratch that champions cant even use make way..

However the Champion is part of his unit not joining the unit in the same way as a character (a Champion left on his own after the rest of his unit has been destroyed cannot join another unit) he is not a seperate target from the unit as wounds from the unit always spill over onto the champion regardless of WS T or other wise they do not spill over onto characters am i not correct...

the champion is simply the last model removed from the combat unless attacks are puposefully directed against him...

If the quote "models can only attack what is in base contact with them" is absolute then youd only ever be able to kill 1 rank at a time...

If the rules for step up is used as an arguement against me then placeing the champion alone would only hinder you as the enemy is still in contact with the unit so after attacking and killing the champion the unit would kill the next model to step up...

Placing the champion so its the only model in contact with the enemy is NOT a RAW way of limiting casualtys in the first round to 1 model.....The champion is part of the unit and you are not Required to ever purposefully target him.. it is always an option...

Kalandros
10-11-2010, 19:11
You're ignoring the rules that you can only strike models in base contact with you.

Doing 2 wounds on the champion from 2 separate attacks does not kill 2 rank and file models. It kills the champion and the other wound is wasted.

So if you only contact the champion, only the champion can die, nothing else will.
There's nothing in what you say that allows you to kill more models than that - go by the rules as they are written, not by what you 'feel' is the rules.

Lex
10-11-2010, 19:26
There does seem to be a contradiction in that if you swing at RnF models, the champ is the last to die, but you can't attack RnF models if in contact with only the champion. :rolleyes:

AMWOOD co
10-11-2010, 19:55
Its kind of the same thing when facing a unit that is composed of more than one troop type of troop like Squig Herds or Skaven Giant Rats and Rat Ogres.

I don't own the Skaven book, but if you're fighting a Squig Herd and all your models are in contact with only Sqiugs, you cannot attack any night goblins until enough squigs die first to force a goblin to the front. Squigs and Goblins are both rank and file for that unit.

Are the Skaven units any different? I know they have champions among their beastmasters.

As with the squigs, the champion is simply the only option for said model to attack and so his attacks must be directed at the champion. The pg 99 reference I made earlier is a reminder, not a new rule for characters.

The idea of a limit on the first rank is covered on page 51, 2nd last paragraph. "The excess casualties are removed as normal from the unit as a whole..." so that arguement falls through (the champion has a limiting rule, however).

As for making the champion the only casualty in a round of combat, that would need a clip (not easy to do anymore) or a 1 rank or file unit. A 1 rank unit hit in the flank or a 1 file unit in the front will have only the champion in combat. I wouldn't wager on the rest of the unit doing well in the next round.

More often than not we will have a case of the champion being on the edge of the unit with one or two enemy models in contact with only himself. Another case is a larger base size and enveloping an enemy's base to base contact (Ogre Champ vs. dwarf for example).

Lord_Elric
10-11-2010, 21:28
Your treating a Champion as a seperate target though it is not a CHARACTER it is a RnF command model that is all he has certain special rules like a character however the targeting restriction is not one of them........

I agree on rat ogres and squigs as you are not in base contact with the targets the champion IS the SAME target as a rank and file model.....

It can issue and accept challenges LIKE a character but does not HAVE too
And can be targeted SEPERATLY but you do not have to....

READ page 99 of the BRB under the heading close combat the restriction is under CHARACTERS (which a CHAMPION is not) no restriction is stated under the normal combat rules or the champion rules he IS just a command model nothing more by being in contact with the champion you ARE in contact with RNF models

your over interpreting the phase "can normaly only strike models in base to base contact" if you over interpret that ruling then you can only kill what you started the round in base to base contact with wich we know is not how it is played.....

Kevlar
10-11-2010, 22:24
You don't have to roll all your attacks at once.

If someone wants to be a jerk wad and say the champion is going to absorb all your attacks then roll them one at a time. As soon as the champion dies roll the rest of your attacks on his unit since they have to fill in.

AMWOOD co
11-11-2010, 01:20
You don't have to roll all your attacks at once.

If someone wants to be a jerk wad and say the champion is going to absorb all your attacks then roll them one at a time. As soon as the champion dies roll the rest of your attacks on his unit since they have to fill in.

You don't have to roll them all at once, no, but they are all resolved at once for each initiative step. By my reasoning, the champian would be an impediment, albeit a minor one. By the by, I've never seen it happen outside a challenge.

To Lord_Elric: Going back to the Rat Ogres, let's say I have a unit of goblins 5 wide and Flank Charge a Rat Ogre unit (2 ranks, 1 of Rat Ogres, 1 of Beastmasters). My 5 wide formation will have all models in the front rank in contact. 2 of these will only be able to attack a Rat Ogre, 1 can only attack a beastmaster, 2 have a choice. Support attacking models have the same choices as the models directly in front of them. There are no characters involved.

How is this different from the case of a champion? What if the beastmaster I'm in contact with is a Master Moulder (or whatever they're called). What would I be able to attack other than the moulder with the model in contact with only him and why?

It doesn't matter that he's not a character, I don't have to touch that section. By p48, I will have to direct at least 1 attack (2 if I have a second rank) at that model, and thus he will be removed separately by his own rules if wounded either once or twice (though I can only score once for combat resolution).

Lord_Elric
11-11-2010, 04:16
Because neitherof your models are the same the beast master and rat rat ogres are entirly different models you dont "upgrade" a rat ogre to a beast master now do you"

AMWOOD co
11-11-2010, 07:42
Not the Rat Ogre or Moulder. What I mean is do you attack the Moulder or a beastmaster that in not in base to base contact with any enemies and how can you justify this.

T10
11-11-2010, 08:53
The only reference I could find is page48, "Normally a warrior can only strike blows against an enemy model in base contact."

There you go.

-T10

Lord_Elric
11-11-2010, 10:09
Not the Rat Ogre or Moulder. What I mean is do you attack the Moulder or a beastmaster that in not in base to base contact with any enemies and how can you justify this.

If a moulder is considered a champion/command model then yes you could still strike at the non rat ogre element of the unit without having to specificly target the moulder

Its simple the restriction that you must direct attacks at a the only model your in base contact with is only present in the character rules there is no such restriction under any command model or champion...they are still "just" command models nothing more and certainly not characters...

Also note to OP remember champions cant make way so if your opponent moved his champion into base contact during combat then it was being played wrong anyway

AMWOOD co
11-11-2010, 11:09
After reading the champion section again, I still fail to see how champions can be ignored if a model is in base contact with only the champion. Page 48 cannot simply be shrugged aside because it's inconvenient.

To continue with my example, if a moulder is rank and file, he should not be ignored for the 1 model in base contact with only him any more than the 2 models in contact with only the Rat Ogre should ignore that beasty. The two in contact with both can and may choose to strike the unit's champion (the moulder) if they wish, but may direct their attacks at the Rat Ogre instead.

The Slayer Thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282477)summarizes the position nicely while using units that have more than 1 champion.

Kevlar
11-11-2010, 11:45
You don't have to roll them all at once, no, but they are all resolved at once for each initiative step. By my reasoning, the champian would be an impediment, albeit a minor one. By the by, I've never seen it happen outside a challenge.


Initiative has no bearing on models filling in. As soon as the champion dies another model takes his place, you don't wait until the following initiative step. And there is no rule that all attacks at the same initiative have to target the same model. You are able to split attacks up and roll them individually.

a18no
11-11-2010, 14:01
I must say that i can see how both interpretation could be good:

The version about "can attack only model in base contact" seem good because it's the way we always played it. Not a good argument, but seem the anchor on what many are arguing in many topic (even if they don't say so).

But like others said, since champion are no longer character but ARE rank and file troop with different profil (generally one more attack), are they consider in the rule that force you to strike who you are in contact with? Are they different from other rank and file, or are consider in the same boat??

Both rules seem right to my thought, and that need a consensus with your own opponent.

Good games!

T10
11-11-2010, 14:32
Initiative has no bearing on models filling in. As soon as the champion dies another model takes his place, you don't wait until the following initiative step. And there is no rule that all attacks at the same initiative have to target the same model. You are able to split attacks up and roll them individually.

Yes, models step up as they are slain. Of course, once a unit drops to a certain size initiative is very important since it affects who gets to fight, and if the width of the unit starts shrinking then models that started the combat round in base contact may find that they have no enemy to attack when it's their turn to strike.

At the point where the champion/character is slain and removed, all attacks on that initiative count have already been allocated. So if the model is replaced by another champion/character stepping up it's too late to change the allocation of attacks for the current initiative count.

It is indeed true that all of a models attacks do not have to be allocated to the same model. And it is practical to individually resolve attacks split among different models. However, you don't get to first kill the champion and then attack what-ever steps up to take his place. At least not in the same initiative count.

-T10

Kalandros
12-11-2010, 09:52
champions weren't characters in 7th edition either...
They counted as characters for certain things, just like they are like characters for certain things in 8th edition.

Barely anything has changed for champions between editions.

a18no
12-11-2010, 14:16
champions weren't characters in 7th edition either...
They counted as characters for certain things, just like they are like characters for certain things in 8th edition.

Barely anything has changed for champions between editions.

Actually, they were characters back in 7th. Except that they wasn't able to leave their unit.

TMATK
12-11-2010, 15:04
Actually, they were characters back in 7th. Except that they wasn't able to leave their unit.

No, they weren't. P 81 of the 7ed book, 4th paragraph in the Champion section.

Kevlar
12-11-2010, 15:28
At the point where the champion/character is slain and removed, all attacks on that initiative count have already been allocated. So if the model is replaced by another champion/character stepping up it's too late to change the allocation of attacks for the current initiative count.

It is indeed true that all of a models attacks do not have to be allocated to the same model. And it is practical to individually resolve attacks split among different models. However, you don't get to first kill the champion and then attack what-ever steps up to take his place. At least not in the same initiative count.

-T10

Please show me where this rule is located. Nothing in the close combat section of the rule book states that all attacks must be allocated before wounds and saves are made. You are making this up.

TMATK
12-11-2010, 16:59
Please show me where this rule is located. Nothing in the close combat section of the rule book states that all attacks must be allocated before wounds and saves are made. You are making this up.

p 48, Dividing attacks.

Kevlar
12-11-2010, 17:19
p 48, Dividing attacks.

Wrong, the only reason you have to decide before you roll in that section is because the models have different characteristics. You can't roll then get a 3 and say you were swinging at the rank and file which you can hit on a 3, instead of the hero which you could only hit on a 4.

All that is saying is you have to declare who you are attacking before you start rolling dice for that particular combat, not that all models who can attack have to declare before any attacks are resolved. Otherwise you would have to declare attacks for every unit in close combat before you resolved attacks for any of them.

TMATK
12-11-2010, 17:46
Wrong, the only reason you have to decide before you roll in that section is because the models have different characteristics. You can't roll then get a 3 and say you were swinging at the rank and file which you can hit on a 3, instead of the hero which you could only hit on a 4.

All that is saying is you have to declare who you are attacking before you start rolling dice for that particular combat, not that all models who can attack have to declare before any attacks are resolved. Otherwise you would have to declare attacks for every unit in close combat before you resolved attacks for any of them.

The section clearly covers dividing attacks attacks in general. It mentions the example of different characteristics, as well as a few others.

Kevlar
12-11-2010, 17:58
The section clearly covers dividing attacks attacks in general. It mentions the example of different characteristics, as well as a few others.

I think you need to re-read that entire close combat section. There is nothing in there saying you can't resolve attacks individually. The only thing the dividing attacks section says is that you have to declare who you are attacking before making an individual attack roll. It says nothing about resolving the attacks, which can be done as the attacking player chooses.

stripsteak
12-11-2010, 18:01
I think you need to re-read that entire close combat section. There is nothing in there saying you can't resolve attacks individually. The only thing the dividing attacks section says is that you have to declare who you are attacking before making an individual attack roll. It says nothing about resolving the attacks, which can be done as the attacking player chooses.

you have to declare for a model when it 'its turn to strike' all models with the same I strike at the same time. You have to declare all I10 models together, then I9 models together, etc. The order you roll the dice in doesn't really matter because they are technically happening at the same time.

also no it doesn't say be 'before making an individual attack roll' it says 'before any dice are rolled' these could be dice for that model or a different model

Kevlar
12-11-2010, 18:30
also no it doesn't say be 'before making an individual attack roll' it says 'before any dice are rolled' these could be dice for that model or a different model

No, it says that only when you are attacking two models with two different profiles. Obviously you have to declare which model you are attacking if you need different results for models with different weapon skill or toughness.

Nowhere in any part of the close combat section does it say all models with the same initiative must roll all their attacks at the same time. It just says they have to be resolved in initiative order. You can roll every attack on the table individually and resolve it before making the next attack roll if you want.

Lord_Elric
12-11-2010, 19:07
No, it says that only when you are attacking two models with two different profiles. Obviously you have to declare which model you are attacking if you need different results for models with different weapon skill or toughness.

Nowhere in any part of the close combat section does it say all models with the same initiative must roll all their attacks at the same time. It just says they have to be resolved in initiative order. You can roll every attack on the table individually and resolve it before making the next attack roll if you want.

Then you are essential rolling your attacks as per the rules for drawn intiatives meaning "each attack is resolved as though no others had caused any casualtys" therefore your not gaining anythin by doing it what so ever as you would be required to declare whos attacking who before rolling the dice

and if for example a character was stopping you from hitting the rest of the unit all your other attacks after killing the character would have to be resolved as though the character hadnt been killed..

this however has no bearing on the effect of the position of a champion attempting to block attacks in the OP original situation...

A champion is not a character you do not "have to" direct attacks in order to hit him, you have the "option" of targeting him seperatly in order to remove him early. there are differences...

for example

Character A is in unit 1 which in total consists of 9 warriors and 1 Character

Example X

Enemy attacks unit 1 with out alocating attacks against Character A suffering 15 casualtys, killing 9 warriors however the 6 extra wounds DoNot carry over the the character "EVEN if their stat lines are IDENTICAL"

Example Y

Enemy attacks unit one deciding to allocate 6 attacks against character A causing 3 wounds killing Character A however the additional wound does not carry over to the unit because it was previously declared...

Now...

Champion A is in unit 1 which in total consists of 9 warriors and 1 Champion

Example XX

Enemy attacks unit 1 with out alocating attacks against Champion A suffering 15 casualtys, killing the entire unit "REGARDLESS of the statlines of the champion" (this included any magical equipment he might be carrying)


Now there is nothing saying that a Champion with a Ward save item for example even gets to take it if hes killed as a result of casualties directed against his unit (though many players inc myself would allow it)

A champion even in the example of a unit of Troll slayers with a few giant slayers in the unit the giant slayers are still hit and killed by attacks caused on the unit regardless of the scores required to-hit or to-wound...

Character are not.... meaning that in order to wound them you MUST direct attacks at them... as i have proved champions do not share this distinction..rather their status among the RnF makes them an easy target during combat...

Kalandros
12-11-2010, 20:35
Anyway, the rules are clear, if there's only the champion in base contact, only the champion can die.

Lord_Elric
12-11-2010, 20:45
Anyway, the rules are clear, if there's only the champion in base contact, only the champion can die.

:rolleyes:....just WoW....:rolleyes:

wicked im going to tell my opponent from now on he can only kill 1 rank of models at a time now then as "there the only ones in base contact"

even better im gonna take an all my cavalry deployed in single file with champs nice way of bogging down any unit in the game for a round

please Fgs read the rules

Kevlar
12-11-2010, 20:57
Then you are essential rolling your attacks as per the rules for drawn intiatives meaning "each attack is resolved as though no others had caused any casualtys" therefore your not gaining anythin by doing it what so ever as you would be required to declare whos attacking who before rolling the dice

and if for example a character was stopping you from hitting the rest of the unit all your other attacks after killing the character would have to be resolved as though the character hadnt been killed..


Wrong. The character would not block any attacks. Replace the champion in this situation with a hero and the same thing applies. You can roll single attacks until the hero is dead, then his unit has to fill in. Initiative has no bearing on that. The only thing drawn initiative will allow the enemy character to do is to make his own attacks back before he dies. The rest of your attacks can be made against the rank and file filling in, there is no "wasted attacks".

DeathlessDraich
12-11-2010, 21:31
Another long discussion over an issue which players who have played through several editions would have resolved one way only. :)

The rule quoted on pg 48 has no use - "Normally a warrior can only strike blows against and enemy model in base contact"

The word 'normally' precludes its use in all circumstances i.e. it cannot be used in abnormal situations i.e there are exceptions to this rule.
In fact one of the exceptions is mentioned immediately in the next sentence - Support attacks (more on that later). **

What then are the other exceptions? Ans: Unknown but they exist! The rule above becomes useless.



However another rule is more important for this situation.
or rather the logical converse of this rule.

pg 48 - "If an enemy is touching enemies with different characteristic profiles, it can choose which one to attack before any rolls"

Champions and characters have a different char. profile from RnF and therefore qualify.

Taking this rule in converse ... - I'll leave that to you but the logical deduction that follows is: :)

- that in the OP case only the champion can be attacked



**Support Attacks - again in this case, the support attacks have to be directed against the champion.

It took me quite sometime to find how and where in the rules support this contention, when resolving Sup.Atacks in a question in a game I watched ... so I'll leave searching the rules to whoever wishes to do so! :)

jaxom
12-11-2010, 21:34
If a character gains Look Out, Sir when there are 5 R&F models in the unit, why is the Champion specifically exempted from counting? There are certainly situations where I would like to count the Champion as a R&F model. I can't. Like hell if I am letting you because it suits you better.

Lord_Elric
12-11-2010, 22:17
Wrong. The character would not block any attacks. Replace the champion in this situation with a hero and the same thing applies. You can roll single attacks until the hero is dead, then his unit has to fill in. Initiative has no bearing on that. The only thing drawn initiative will allow the enemy character to do is to make his own attacks back before he dies. The rest of your attacks can be made against the rank and file filling in, there is no "wasted attacks".

For a start Drawn intiative doesnt only effect you and your enemy striking together but also your own troops striking at the same time though im against the idea of being forced to direct attacks at a Champion, the idea of being able to roll them one by one is stupid and completly against the rules in every sense there is no written supporting arguement for it on any page of the BRB

All attacks that strike at the same intiative are resolved as though NO other attack at the same intiative (friend or foe) has caused any casualtys/wounds that is as clear cut as it gets,,,all of your units attack weather you roll them all at the same time or one by one are all striking simultaneously with each other...

Lord_Elric
12-11-2010, 22:19
If a character gains Look Out, Sir when there are 5 R&F models in the unit, why is the Champion specifically exempted from counting? There are certainly situations where I would like to count the Champion as a R&F model. I can't. Like hell if I am letting you because it suits you better.

Find it in the rules where the same rule stated for characters that they "have to be targeted seperatly" also applys to champions and ill concede.......

AMWOOD co
12-11-2010, 22:23
- "Normally a warrior can only strike blows against and enemy model in base contact"

However another rule is more important for this situation.
or rather the logical converse of this rule.

pg 48 - "If an enemy is touching enemies with different characteristic profiles, it can choose which one to attack before any rolls"

Champions and characters have a different char. profile from RnF and therefore qualify.

Taking this rule in converse ... - I'll leave that to you but the logical deduction that follows is: :)

If A then B:
A = a model is touching enemies with different characteristic profiles
B = it can choose which one to attack when its turn to stike comes...

That's pretty much right out of the second paragraph of Dividing Attack on p48.

Converse: If B then A.
If a model can choose which enemy to attack when its turn comes then a model is touching enemies with different characteristic profiles.

Inverse: If not A then not B
If a model is not touching enemies with different profiles then it cannot choose which one to attack.

Contrapositive: If not B then not A
If a model cannot choose which one to attack then it isn't in contact with enemies with different profiles.

It's the inverse we want to determine and are debating over. The interesting thing is that we agree that the case is true for units that have more than one type of basic rank and file (Squig Herds and Rat Ogres for example). We also agree that the case for the inverse is true when characters are involved. Why are champions special?

The only exception of this that I know of is the following: Challenges where the two combatants cannot be in base contact. This is a specific example given and the only one I can find, but the two models are considered in base contact with eachother even if not physically so. It becomes a grey area at best.

Champion, Standard Bearers and Musicians being removed as casualties on the unit: this is not a result of attacks being directed, but of wounds being resolved. The attacks were directed before any attacks were made and each model had to direct its attacks against a rank and file soldier to achieve this. Therefore, the rules for removing champions as the last model of a unit do not help with directing attacks.

Now, many have said that the Who Can Strike? rule isn't absolute, but the dividing attacks rule appears to be. Even in the case of supporting attacks, the rules for Supporting Attacks tell you that you must divide attacks based on the models that the model in the front rank of that file can attack.

Questions?

Lord_Elric
12-11-2010, 22:31
If your only in base contact with the champion then i agree you have to resolve your attacks against him because hes all your in contact with however that does not force you to limit casualtys to just the champion because you are not chooseing which attacks go where your just rolling them against a target (hence they are not being split or specificly directed)

therefore you rolls against the champions WS T Sv Wsv......Yes however Casualtys are not limited to just the Champion as your attacks are not Directed........ you can kill a champion with being in base contact with him "correct"

If your not stopped from killing the champion because you rolled all attacks againt his RnF.....for what reason would the inverse be true

AMWOOD co
12-11-2010, 22:39
Find it in the rules where the same rule stated for characters that they "have to be targeted seperatly" also applys to champions and ill concede.......

This will take a moment and a few quotes that have been made before. I'll make them all once more to save you scrolling time since I intend to reference them all.

...enemy models in base contact can direct attacks against the champion if they wish.

Normally, a warrior can only strike blows against an enemy model in base contact.

If a model is touching enemies with different characteristic profiles, it can choose which one to attack...

Supporting attacks are made against models in base contact with the front rank model that is being fought 'through'.

Now, enemies may choose to attack champions if they wish.

'If they wish' what? Obviously, to attack the champion.

When may they attack the champion? They may attack the champion if they are in base contact with him (or supporting a model in contact him).

When may they choose otherwise? When they are in contact with the champion and a model with a different profile.

When may they not choose? When they aren't in contact with only champions.

Edit: Saw your last post:
If your not stopped from killing the champion because you rolled all attacks againt his RnF.....for what reason would the inverse be true
Because page 93 says its true. Greenskin, Chaos and High Elf players in 6th argued that certain chapions with higher WS or unique Armour/Ward Saves wouldn't die from every attack directed at the unit, so they wanted him treated as a character. 7th introduced the rule saying champions die as result of rank and file dying. 8th refined it with a specific order.

Lord_Elric
12-11-2010, 22:48
"Because page 93 says its true. Greenskin, Chaos and High Elf players in 6th argued that certain chapions with higher WS or unique Armour/Ward Saves wouldn't die from every attack directed at the unit, so they wanted him treated as a character. 7th introduced the rule saying champions die as result of rank and file dying. 8th refined it with a specific order. "

What? alls you stated here was that champions can die from killing RnF and that players in 6Th didnt like it ????

Your only told that excess wounds are lost when you "choose" to direct attacks at the champion If you not in base contact with multiplestatlines then your not chooseing your still hitting the same unit so wounds would carry over from the champion...but as i said you would have to roll tohit towound and saves against him and any extra equipment,,,,They are Still not Characters

AMWOOD co
12-11-2010, 22:58
What? alls you stated here was that champions can die from killing RnF and that players in 6Th didnt like it ????

That's why the rule came into being. I remember the talks on the Warhammer official forum before it was taken down (I was actually in favour of the side that ultimately lost with the 7th release).

Think of what it was like if the rule of removing champions wasn't there and you had a unit of Orc Boyz with a Boss (+1WS, +1S, +1A). It is conceivable that an attack directed at unit from a WS 4 foe would not have hit said Boss (specifically, 25% of all the hits). Why should I remove the champion when you may not have actually hurt him? High Elves were also able to give Elite units magic items thus giving them better saves and making them less likely to die. Why shouldn't I get my 5+ ward save?

In comes 7th and a rule specifically stating that the champion is removed if enough wounds were inflicted on the Rank and File to kill the total number of models including the champion. Back then, however, the strict order didn't exist, so my group allowed command models to be removed in whatever order you wanted (standards were usually last to die). Now, champions are last to die, specifically.

That's the history of removing the champion as the last model. Champions were characters in 5th, and 6th had a conflict when some had a little more power.

Mind you, none of this actually helps the original questoin. Allocating wounds is not the same as directing attacks.

jaxom
15-11-2010, 19:09
Find it in the rules where the same rule stated for characters that they "have to be targeted seperatly" also applys to champions and ill concede.......

First, a model can only direct attacks at models he is in base contact with. He can always choose not to attack so he is *choosing* to attack the model in base contact with him. Nothing dictates that a model must roll, ever, so this is, indeed a choice.

Second, p. 93 is explicit and uses a single sentence. "Note that any extra wounds inflicted on a champion do not carry over onto the rest of the unit - Once the champion is slain, excess wounds are lost."

There are no qualifiers on that sentence.

None.

It stands alone.

You are told how to direct attacks and then you're told what happens when you wound the champion model. There is nothing there about "unless he's the only model available to direct attacks against" or anything.

stripsteak
15-11-2010, 19:50
First, a model can only direct attacks at models he is in base contact with. He can always choose not to attack so he is *choosing* to attack the model in base contact with him. Nothing dictates that a model must roll, ever, so this is, indeed a choice.
just to note pg 48 'Models cannot elect not to strike, nor can they normally be prevented from doing so'

jaxom
15-11-2010, 20:59
Interesting. There was no rule to that effect in 7th was there?

Rather than change the post above orphaning stripsteak's comment, I will add here that the logic still applies.

Targetting is still specified. Per the rules you still inflict wounds on the champion model. Arguing that your attacks are not directed at the champion is equivalent to arguing that they *are* directed somewhere else and in this case that would be a violation of the rules on p. 48 stating that you can only attack models with whom you are in base contact.

T10
15-11-2010, 21:13
Interesting. There was no rule to that effect in 7th was there?


There was. 7th ed. rule book, p 32, last sentence.

-T10