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MortalTurky
10-11-2010, 08:21
Hi all, I been thinking about one thing.
I know that orks use rather primitive simple "replacements", in a kind of copy of Imperial Bionics I assume.
But whaat about the Eldar, the Tau?
How do they replace lost limbs and stuff?

/ MortalTurky

Hendarion
10-11-2010, 08:24
Eldar? With regrown biologic equivalent parts as can be seen on re-grown fallen Dark Eldar.

Lord Damocles
10-11-2010, 08:27
The picture of an Eldar pirate from the 4th ed. Rulebook shows what appears to be a bionic arm.

Hendarion
10-11-2010, 08:34
Well, it probably depends on what they want. :p If they want flesh and bone, they probably can get flesh and bone. If they want something that is capable of more, they can get that too - as Scourges for example too.
I guess CWE will use more biologic arms than Corsairs would - at matter of aesthetics.

MortalTurky
10-11-2010, 08:35
So, Eldar use regrown boilogical replacements?
No fancy fists of wraithbone or something?

But Tau then?

Shamana
10-11-2010, 08:38
I think the Inquisitor game mentioned an eldar pirate with a bionic arm. They are certainly able to regrow or replace missing limbs. In general, assume that if it's possible to the Imperium, they have it.

The Tau... I'd probably go with cybernetics, but I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough of their abilities.

Malagate
10-11-2010, 08:54
For Tau I would imagine anyone that got maimed badly enough and survived would be shipped off the fronts lines, get a disability allowance and fight the war from a desk. They probably do cybernetics too but I've never seen Tau medical technology mentioned anywhere, then again I haven't even read the 4th edition Tau codex :D Maybe Tau are just so physically puny that a light maiming that would give you a cool metal hand in an Imperial army just kills a Tau dead?

The other xenos are easy though (Dark Eldar regrow, Tyranids either regenerate or get digested and respawned, Orks just bolt some scrap on the stump, Necrons are past bionics), although I think most xeno bionics really comes from the lesser races that are mostly background fluff.

Shinzui
10-11-2010, 08:57
Index xenos Tau say they use Cybernetics. Which considering Hard-wired systems are exactly that its not surprising.

MortalTurky
10-11-2010, 08:59
Okay, thx Shinzui. :D
Do they use Cybernetics to the same extent that Imperials do, like built-in weapon, magnificent strength and alike?

Shinzui
10-11-2010, 09:04
Only examples I've seen other than hard-wired systems is basic limb replacement.

Iuris
10-11-2010, 10:44
I believe one bionics replacement rule comment specifically mentioned that bionics quality will vary from race to race, and mentioned Eldar bionics as indistinguishable from the real organs.

Hellebore
10-11-2010, 10:53
I wonder if craftworld eldar don't regrow limbs due to a cultural bias? The dark eldar do it all the time, perhaps they don't simply to avoid association? Yet another thing for the dark eldar to gloat and cackle about.

Hellebore

Iuris
10-11-2010, 11:16
Maybe the reasons are not a matter of technical limitations? Remember how one of the most important Dark Angels characters has a crude bionic eye since he refuses to be fitted with a better one for reasons of honouring his fallen brothers?

Also, bionics don't need to be permanent. Maybe regrowing a limb takes time and a bionic is fitted for the mean time?

Also, possibly it's not always possible to fit bionics/regenerate a limb. Allergies, defects that prevent implantation and similar may be a consideration, just as wqith humans.

MagosHereticus
10-11-2010, 11:27
Mad Dok Grotsnik hasnt given you his sales pitch yet? he provides extensive bionics for his clients, who wouldnt want lungs that can breathe underwater or and exploding leg or two, and his master piece if of course the adamantium skull cavity prosthetics, especially good if you ever get shot in the head and lost too much brain

N0-1_H3r3
10-11-2010, 11:37
I wonder if craftworld eldar don't regrow limbs due to a cultural bias? The dark eldar do it all the time, perhaps they don't simply to avoid association? Yet another thing for the dark eldar to gloat and cackle about.

Hellebore
I think it might be a matter of technological philosophy; the Eldar traditionally have seen little difference between the creations of science and technology and those of the natural world, primarily due to their psychic ability to influence their surroundings - a psychoplastic arm or eye or leg will be functionally indistinguishable from the real thing for day-to-day purposes, and that's enough.

The Dark Eldar can't do that - they no longer possess the natural capabilities to produce devices that the Craftworlders take for granted, and must do things differently. Their flesh-craft is one such way of doing things, developed to its current extremes by the Dark Eldar in the centuries after the Fall... so the Craftworlders may never have developed that way of doing things, because the necessity that birthed that invention doesn't really exist for anyone but the Dark Eldar.

Hellebore
10-11-2010, 11:43
It seems more aesthetically pleasing to be 'whole' again though. No matter the perfection of a prosthetic, it's still a prosthetic. I would have thought most eldar prefer to be whole.

Some sophisticated Biomancy can easily regrow limbs so there isn't any technological lack the eldar have. A fleshsinger/doctor could grow an arm back using nothing but psychic power, something the dark eldar lack.

Hellebore

N0-1_H3r3
10-11-2010, 12:56
It seems more aesthetically pleasing to be 'whole' again though. No matter the perfection of a prosthetic, it's still a prosthetic. I would have thought most eldar prefer to be whole.

Some sophisticated Biomancy can easily regrow limbs so there isn't any technological lack the eldar have. A fleshsinger/doctor could grow an arm back using nothing but psychic power, something the dark eldar lack.

Hellebore
This is true, but while we know that they do use bionics... that doesn't mean they don't also create biological replacements. We don't know the whole story anyway; it may just end up coming down to personal preference on the part of the individual Eldar. The Craftworlders demonstrably have the means and inclination to create bionics at least some of the time (because a properly regrown limb wouldn't be noticeable as such, so we can't tell who has had it done and who hasn't), while the technology involved means that the Dark Eldar would have a much harder time of this, but do invest much more time, effort and attention in biological augmentation.

At the end of the day, that's all that can really be said about the two factions.

MarcoSkoll
10-11-2010, 13:57
It seems more aesthetically pleasing to be 'whole' again though. No matter the perfection of a prosthetic, it's still a prosthetic.
But to develop on your last sentence there, perhaps they look upon even a cloned/regrown limb as... well, a flesh prosthetic. Perfect, in a sense, but still not the original.
Maybe it's just that they really do look upon all replacements for a limb - no matter how close in appearance, function, or even materials - to be a prosthetic, and thus have no reason to prefer a "real" one.

Let's say for example, there are two identical twins, a perfect genetic match.
One (Twin A) generally abuses his body so later in his life, he needs a heart transplant. At the same time, his perfectly healthy twin B has some accident where he suffers major brain damage that makes any hope of recovery impossible. The decision is made to switch off Twin B's life support and use his heart, a flawless genetic match that would need no immunosuppressants to be accepted, for Twin A's heart transplant.

How do you look upon that (outside of the emotional difficulties of the situation)? It's a perfect genetic match and will be accepted completely... but just because it's exactly the same as the original doesn't make it not a replacement.
Maybe the Eldar look upon it that way.

Or perhaps there's some kind of cultural taboo against doing things like that (it's wrong, somehow, perhaps validly), something the Dark Eldar just don't care about. One thing that comes to mind (although I've not read the Dark Eldar codex yet, so you'll have to forgive me going by just what I've picked up from Warseer) is that the Eldar spirit can linger in body parts, and that's why the Dark Eldar can "clone" their dead, drawing the spirit back to a physical form.

Perhaps with the CWE, after the physical form of the lost limb has died, the "resurrection" of that limb is looked upon much as they do the Wraithguard... a tragic sin against nature, not leaving the spirit of the dead to rest.

This doesn't necessarily mean that I think that the CWE wouldn't use regrown limbs. I'm just suggesting reasons why they might default to "bionics".

~~~~~

One last thing that I don't think has been said yet and seems to have been overlooked.
Bionics are not the Imperium's only option for replacing missing bits, and they use cloned body parts in some cases, but usually only the wealthy and powerful can enjoy such a privilege.

Of course, this makes a bit of a difficult argument for why you'd get bionics on well connected and powerful characters at all when you can get perfect biological replacements.
Aside from the answer of "They prefer bionics" (often overused, and usually better reserved for characters with AdMech connections/obsessions) my preferred explanation for that one is it's hard to re-replace bionics, with extensive connections and mountings that make a mess of what was there before.
If you need that replacement part now, you'll need the quicker to source and fit bionics (a bionic can fit anyone of the right size, but your cloned arm needs to be made specially for you), but you'll probably never be able to have a flesh and blood arm again.

Ratmamahatma
10-11-2010, 20:44
The Fell-Ra eldar do use wraithbone prosthetic for they face the truth directly and the truth is that they were scarred in the fight. They are not hiding behid no masks and they prefer Yannead of dead flesh before the Khaine of false promises or Haemonculi of flesh without soul.

Sorry to interupt with my personal fluff but I guess the game is as much about personal fluff as it is about canon ;)

Hellebore
10-11-2010, 21:24
But to develop on your last sentence there, perhaps they look upon even a cloned/regrown limb as... well, a flesh prosthetic. Perfect, in a sense, but still not the original.
Maybe it's just that they really do look upon all replacements for a limb - no matter how close in appearance, function, or even materials - to be a prosthetic, and thus have no reason to prefer a "real" one.


This is a good point. The biomancy solution actually regrows the limb from the stump, like a lizard regenerating a limb. In this one case I could perhaps see them taking it as 'original' as it came from the body, rather than a cloned and attached limb which does have connotations of a prosthetic. But yes, the point is well founded.

Hellebore

spetswalshe
10-11-2010, 21:33
I believe one bionics replacement rule comment specifically mentioned that bionics quality will vary from race to race, and mentioned Eldar bionics as indistinguishable from the real organs.

I remember reading this too. Ultimately I think the reason we don't see much in the way of Tau or Eldar bionics is simply because we don't see much of Tau or Eldar. Certainly the 'frailty' of Tau isn't going to come into it; if they don't have the technology in place (which is difficult to imagine) they'd likely just be retired to a more appropriate role.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that Eldar medical technology probably means bionic replacements are very rarely required. Most bionics would be a result of a medically necessary amputation, rather than the more adolescent-reader-friendly it-got-ripped-right-off-mid-battle excuse; the Eldar might well be able to stop a gangrene-analogue in its tracks, or repair a limb considered irreparably damaged by human medical services.

Conversely, of course, what with superior technology, a higher value of life and the Eldar ability to deal with trauma (slowing bleeding by meditation or whatever), they're less likely to just die on the spot after a traumatic amputation in the field and so more likely to make it back home to receive their transplant/prosthetic/stem-cell limb. However actual traumatic amputations are pretty tricky to actually pick up, even when you are fighting giants with chainswords.

Col. Tartleton
10-11-2010, 22:21
From what I recall of the Tau they do use bionics, but sparingly to suit their utilitarian philosophy. Many prefer to adapt to their new condition. After all, if you're a Battlesuit pilot an arm or leg is of very little use to you. Your purpose is to pilot a vehicle which only requires a keen mind and a nerve feed. They'd make do with a spartan cane or crutch. A Fire Warrior marksman would need that leg though, and he would get one.

The Tau have behind all that tech a savage warrior vibe. I'm sure that they wear their scars proudly as service paid to the Empire. We know they do blood rituals it wouldn't be a leap of faith to presume they practice ritual scarring. They wore/wear war paint. It's on their armor. Heraldry is after all just another form of warpaint. The fire caste at least isn't afraid to be the ugliest mother in their unit. Their beauty is probably tied to their genetics and their contributions to the Empire. A scarred up one eyed warrior is probably among the most dashing members of the Empire after the Ethereals.

SgtTaters
10-11-2010, 22:21
Here's some freaky John Blanche Eldar with bionic augmentation.

I figure Pirates would want to look cool and scary, while craftworlders will have something realistic or regrown parts.

Vaulkhar
10-11-2010, 22:42
...an exploding leg or two...

Dat's all well and good Doc, but it woz me arm wot needed fixin'!

Hellebore
10-11-2010, 22:48
The Tau have behind all that tech a savage warrior vibe. I'm sure that they wear their scars proudly as service paid to the Empire. We know they do blood rituals it wouldn't be a leap of faith to presume they practice ritual scarring. They wore/wear war paint. It's on their armor. Heraldry is after all just another form of warpaint. The fire caste at least isn't afraid to be the ugliest mother in their unit. Their beauty is probably tied to their genetics and their contributions to the Empire. A scarred up one eyed warrior is probably among the most dashing members of the Empire after the Ethereals.

They do practice ritual scaring. There was a story in the 1st tau codex of a group of battlesuit pilots becoming bonded with a Ta'lissera and cutting their chests in the shape of the Vior'la sept symbol.

Hellebore

Idaan
11-11-2010, 10:55
Here's some freaky John Blanche Eldar with bionic augmentation.

I figure Pirates would want to look cool and scary, while craftworlders will have something realistic or regrown parts.

Actually only the middle one has obvious bionics. The others could be just equipment worn over their faces and limbs - much like Prince Yriel's Eye of Wrath (stated to be worn over the eye) or Rangers' gunsight-feeds. And I think that the middle one is either just an Imperial depiction of a Corsair, or a Corsair who's channeling the cosmic archetype of a Pirate - you know, how every single pirate model made by GW, from Yriel to Huron and Badrukk has to have a pegleg, hook for an arm and a parrot.

Iuris
11-11-2010, 11:18
AAAARGH! Not Blanche again! Why oh why did GW have to give HIM the Harlequins to illustrate...

Poseidal
11-11-2010, 11:27
There's another Blanche of an Eldar with (what looks like) bionic fingers in the 2nd ed codex, if I recall correctly.

Hendarion
11-11-2010, 11:54
Yes, on page 86. Looks a bit like a Mandiblaster with gemstones, but some cables seam to vanish somewhere in the skin. Hard to tell if that is really bionics or just a glove.