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Shazzam6
11-11-2010, 11:22
Hello Warseer,

A quick question for you guys. Recently I played a game with a Bretonnian Lord on a horse. My damsel managed to pull of a savage beasts spell on him, granting the MODEL +3S & +3A. Now that is just gravy, but after thoughtful consideration my game group came to the conclusion that the mount would also get the buff as its part of the model and it would do its 4 S7 (!!!) horse attacks.
Are we correct to think that this is the case? If so, that spell just might make me tip the scales to put another damsel in my list. Thank you!

Chiungalla
11-11-2010, 11:28
Your interpretation would be right, if the spell would target models or units. But it targets the character and the character only. So no, no strength 6 horse with 4 attacks... and more important no strength 10 star dragons with 9 attacks.

Shazzam6
11-11-2010, 11:47
It targets the character yes, but with a combined profile (read, the mount has a combined profile with its rider or in other words, cannot be struck on its own, does not make its own tests and is slain with its rider) is not the combination of rider and mount considered as a single model? The spell targets the character, and the character is the combination of character+mount thus giving the mount the buff. Following that, the combined profile of Pegasus Paladins would mean that the pegasus would get 6 S8 attacks with a S8 Stomp to top it all.
If someone can find a quote of why this would not be the case with combined profiles I would very much appreciate it.

sssk
11-11-2010, 11:55
I won't get involved in the actual discussion here, as I don't have a rulebook in front of me blah blah.

However, as stated about a buzzillion times elsewhere in this very forum, Stomp and thunder stomp are not affected by any additional rules etc. hence no strength 8 stomp.

Chiungalla
11-11-2010, 14:23
Actually, after rechecking... you are right.

On page 104 the rules say, that if a character is riding a horse, the entire model follows the rules for cavalry and characters. So RAW you are right.

Same is true for monstrous cavalry mounts, chariot mounts and ridden monsters.

So characters on chariots are very nasty if they get off those strength 8 impact hits... and don't forget about the skink chief with the war spear on an ancient stegadon delivering 2D6+1 impact hits with strengh 9...

But I'am sure thats not the way it supposed to work.

Lex
11-11-2010, 14:28
What about the rule where the mount doesn't benefit from things that affect the rider, i.e. frenzy, hatred, etc.?

antihelten
11-11-2010, 14:33
On page 104 the rules say, that if a character is riding a horse, the entire model follows the rules for cavalry and characters. So RAW you are right.


Question is if following all the rules for characters is the same as counting as a character

Or in other words does the fact that the mount follows all the rules for characters, make it a character.

Chiungalla
11-11-2010, 14:42
Question is if following all the rules for characters is the same as counting as a character

The question should be, if you follow all rules for characters, do you need to count as one too, to be affected by the spell.

mishari26
12-11-2010, 04:00
The p.104 text is actually more explicit than this.

"A character and his mount are treated as a single character model for all rules purposes, except as noted below."

then when you go on under each sub-section of "cavalry, monstrous cavalry, chariot mount and lastly ridden monsters", they all end up defining the whole model as "follows the rules for characters.."

So there's nothing that leads us to differentiate between the rider and his mount when being targetted by a spell that targets a "character". as far as the BRB is concerned, the whole model of a hero on his mount IS "a character".

So even though I don't particularly like it, and in my playgroup we might have to house rule this (thanks for bringing it up to our attention!), but seems the RAW of it is that both character and mount benefit from +3S, +3A for all instances of such stats on the model's profile.

AMWOOD co
12-11-2010, 06:11
So even though I don't particularly like it, and in my playgroup we might have to house rule this (thanks for bringing it up to our attention!), but seems the RAW of it is that both character and mount benefit from +3S, +3A for all instances of such stats on the model's profile.

High elf, chariot riding, Beast Mages, here I come!

mishari26
12-11-2010, 08:31
High elf, chariot riding, Beast Mages, here I come!

haha exactly.. it's crazy. but keep in mind the ASF rule only applies to the elves, not the horses ;P

and this exception is thankfully due to the High Elves Armybook p.43 which excludes any mounts from benefiting from Speed of Asuryan.

whew..

AMWOOD co
12-11-2010, 08:36
You realize I'm refering to the possibility of having a total of 16 S6 or better attacks plus D6 S8 Impact hits on one model, right? It seems a little much...

Then again, keeping a High Elf mage alive on a T4, 5+ save chariot is a bit much too.

Edit: Man... Stegadons... the horror...

decker_cky
12-11-2010, 16:51
Question is if following all the rules for characters is the same as counting as a character

Or in other words does the fact that the mount follows all the rules for characters, make it a character.

This. You have to be a character to count as a character still. Following the rules for a character is not the same thing. The character is a character and the mount is a mount.

EDMM
12-11-2010, 17:02
It's not just that it follows the rules for characters, but is "treated as" a character for "all rules purposes."

Is the spell a rule? Yes.
Does the spell effect characters? Yes.
Is the mount treated as a character for the spell? Yes.

To look at it another way:
How are characters treated by this Beast of Horros? They get +3A and +3S.
How should the mount be treated? As a character.
Therefore the mount should get +3A and +3S.

DeathlessDraich
13-11-2010, 10:47
It's not just that it follows the rules for characters, but is "treated as" a character for "all rules purposes."

Is the spell a rule? Yes.
Does the spell effect characters? Yes.
Is the mount treated as a character for the spell? Yes.

To look at it another way:
How are characters treated by this Beast of Horros? They get +3A and +3S.
How should the mount be treated? As a character.
Therefore the mount should get +3A and +3S.

If the mount is also a character then it also benefits from at least some of the magic items the character carries.
Do you really want to interpret it this way?:)


Hello Warseer,

A quick question for you guys. Recently I played a game with a Bretonnian Lord on a horse. My damsel managed to pull of a savage beasts spell on him, granting the MODEL +3S & +3A. Now that is just gravy, but after thoughtful consideration my game group came to the conclusion that the mount would also get the buff as its part of the model and it would do its 4 S7 (!!!) horse attacks.
Are we correct to think that this is the case?

This is part of a much larger debate involving the term 'model'.

The question is:
For multi component models, is it always implicit that when the term 'model' is used it refers to every component of the model (i.e. replace the term 'model' with 'every component of the model')
or
Does it sometimes refer to only a component?


The fact is, most players necessarily use both representations and the solution is a matter of waiting for an FAQ or mutual agreement.

For Savage Beast - since the spell targets the character, I tend to lean towards giving the spell's benefit only to the character.

If you choose to confer a spell's benefits to the whole model then it is important to apply that interpretation consistently throughout the rules.

You then have to replace the word 'model' with 'all components of the model' elsewhere in the rules which leads to situations (and there are many), players find unacceptable