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Demrak
12-11-2010, 07:26
Had a game last night with a good friend of mine.. both of us are grizzled old veterans well into our 40's but we ar both pretty new to 8th edition..

Situation was I had a unit of Flamers of Tzeetch which were charged head on by a hero on a wolf and a seperate unit of wolf riders..

Now as I understand it the charge determination is made for both units at the same time...

But with the stand and shoot response what is response.. do you shoot at all units that charge you from a frontal assualt ? Can you only fire at a single unit that charges you and then are set to a hold response.. if so do you pick who you shoot at.. or if you dont shoot at the first charging unit you lose the option to shoot..

In the given scenario, the hero had a ward save of 2+ V fire, obviously he charged first, now knowing I can handle a single lowbie goblin hero in close combat if given an option it would be prudent to shoot at the wolf rider unit.. then the discussion took place..

Had a good look at the rules and its somewhat open in my mind, if you have missles you can make a stand and shoot response, I dont see any limitations on who or what you can fire at or if there is a rule that is overlooked..

Advice and opinions please oh wise ones.. :)

narrativium
12-11-2010, 07:33
Situation was I had a unit of Flamers of Tzeetch which were charged head on by a hero on a wolf and a seperate unit of wolf riders..

Now as I understand it the charge determination is made for both units at the same time... This is incorrect. The goblin player declares the charges separately, and each charge is followed by a separate charge reaction. You'll therefore only stand and shoot at one charging unit.

Demrak
12-11-2010, 07:36
Page 23 of Main rule book says otherwise, multiple units charging a single unit..

Demrak
12-11-2010, 08:07
Just found under there's too many of them on P18 which gives the answer..

Satan
12-11-2010, 08:16
Which is what? I interpreted the rules just like narrativium. One charge, one reaction, allowing a stand & shoot at first, followed by FLEE!

Demrak
12-11-2010, 08:24
Multiple units charge, attacker selects which unit , defender may choose to hold, fire or flee.. may select hold at this point, next unit charges defender may then elect to fire .. third unit charges but cannot chose shoot as only one shot allowed, could elect to hold or flee if not immune to psycology..

AMWOOD co
12-11-2010, 08:30
By pages 16 and 17, charges are declared one at a time and the charged unit makes its charge reaction right after a given charge is declared. The hero or wolf riders would declare first, you pick your reaction and resolve it before the next charge is declared. The charges won't be resolved until all charges are declared and each reaction resolved.

Page 18 specifies that only 1 Stand and Shoot reaction may be made per turn.

Page 23 says that multiple units charging a single enemy are resolved at the same time. That's about rolling 2D6 (or 3D6 pick 2) and seeing if you successfully charged, not the charge reactions. Charge reactions should already be done at this point.

I hope that clarifies things.

Frosty_TK
12-11-2010, 08:31
Which is indeed correct.

I've made a flowchart for myself to get a grips of the situation. The short version would be:

1. Declare a charge for one unit
2. Opponent selects his charge reaction against this unit.
3a. If the target fled, the charger may once redeclare his charge once (morale check)
3b. If you have more charges, repeat steps one and two.

5. Determine charge distance and move the attackers.

*EDIT AMWOOD was faster, sort of.

Satan
12-11-2010, 08:46
Which is indeed correct.

I've made a flowchart for myself to get a grips of the situation. The short version would be:

1. Declare a charge for one unit
2. Opponent selects his charge reaction against this unit.
3a. If the target fled, the charger may once redeclare his charge once (morale check)
3b. If you have more charges, repeat steps one and two.

5. Determine charge distance and move the attackers.

*EDIT AMWOOD was faster, sort of.

Soooo, this would mean that we no longer get stuck with those clipping charges that I've played with until now in 8th? Both units should maximize the number of models in Base-to-base-contact?

I and my opponents assumed that One unit would more often than not end up eclipsing the other, so to speak.

AMWOOD co
12-11-2010, 08:47
1. Declare a charge for one unit
2. Opponent selects his charge reaction against this unit.
3a. If the target fled, the charger may once redeclare his charge once (morale check)
3b. If you have more charges, repeat steps one and two.

5. Determine charge distance and move the attackers.

*EDIT AMWOOD was faster, sort of.

Maybe faster, but yours is nicer. May I change it a bit?

1. Declare a charge for one unit
2. Opponent selects his charge reaction against this unit.
3a. If the target fled, the charger may once redeclare his charge once (Ld test)
3b. Only one stand and shoot reaction made be made by each unit per turn.
4. If you have more charges, go to step one.
5. Determine charge distance and move the attackers.

Changes are - move 3b to 4. Make the new 3b and change the 40k reference to Fantasy terms. Yeah, the last one isn't necessary but my models hurl magic, not proton grenades.

Frosty_TK
12-11-2010, 10:09
A good Call, AMWOOD. Thank you =)

Satan, for your question I'd have to look into the rulebook. Maybe at lunch break.

Tae
12-11-2010, 19:21
Soooo, this would mean that we no longer get stuck with those clipping charges that I've played with until now in 8th? Both units should maximize the number of models in Base-to-base-contact?

I and my opponents assumed that One unit would more often than not end up eclipsing the other, so to speak.

Indeed this is the case. Which can cause a lot of 'corner clipping' with monsters charging alongside ranked up units as the ranked up unit taking up most of the enemy's frontage would result in more models being in combat so as long as the monster is touching at least one model it's quite easy to bump it to the end of the line.

Also worth noting that if you multi charge and don't have sufficient frontage for all your charging units the charger gets to decide which units complete the charge. e.g. if you charged 2 units of spearmen and a unit of swordmasters at single goblin obviously all 3 units cannot make contact so you would get to chose which two did - the other would make a failed charge. Useful for 'back up' charging if you think your primary charging unit might fluff it's charge and not make it.

Otavius
12-11-2010, 23:28
hey, since im new here i couldnt make a new post about it so ill just ask here since its about stand and shoot as well.

I was playing a match not long ago where a charging unit bashed into a regiment and annihiliated them in the charge, in the overrun they pursuited into a fresh unit of archers. heres the question i then stumbled over:

in the rulebook it says: A stand and shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing units maximum range -

Does that mean that if for an example a unit of archers armed with a bow that shoots 16 inches or 24 or what they now do, if you are closer to that number because you were pursuring then they are not allowed to stand and shoot?

thanks in advance and sorry if the question is confusing :)

AMWOOD co
12-11-2010, 23:37
Does that mean that if for an example a unit of archers armed with a bow that shoots 16 inches or 24 or what they now do, if you are closer to that number because you were pursuring then they are not allowed to stand and shoot?

thanks in advance and sorry if the question is confusing :)

Actually, a unit that is pursued/overrun into cannot make any charge reaction other than Hold. (p58 - Pursuit Into A New Enemy - end of 3rd paragraph)

Your welcome, and welcome to Warseer.

Tae
13-11-2010, 10:01
Actually, a unit that is pursued/overrun into cannot make any charge reaction other than Hold. (p58 - Pursuit Into A New Enemy - end of 3rd paragraph)

Your welcome, and welcome to Warseer.

Although I think (too lazy to find the BRB under the mess in my living room) being techincal that now hold isn't a charge reaction - only stand and shoot and flee are the reactions. Units can now simply chose to not make any reaction - or in the previously mentioned case of overrun, are not allowed to make a reaction.

In game terms it's the same thing but nothing like being pedantic first thing in the morning.

DeathlessDraich
13-11-2010, 10:56
Soooo, this would mean that we no longer get stuck with those clipping charges that I've played with until now in 8th? Both units should maximize the number of models in Base-to-base-contact?

I and my opponents assumed that One unit would more often than not end up eclipsing the other, so to speak.

Have a look at this for clipping that is unavoidable

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280089

Apologies Demrak - off topic - just trying to be helpful.

Otavius
13-11-2010, 19:36
ooh I see, thanks well either way i killed em all ;) but thanks for clearing it up :)

Geep
14-11-2010, 00:51
in the rulebook it says: A stand and shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing units maximum range -

Does that mean that if for an example a unit of archers armed with a bow that shoots 16 inches or 24 or what they now do, if you are closer to that number because you were pursuring then they are not allowed to stand and shoot?

Ignoring the part about the pursuit which prevented standing and shooting, the above rulebook sentence is not saying that you must start outside the full range of a weapon in order to be a 'stand and shoot' target. I'm pretty sure the intent of this sentence is to say that you can't avoid the 'stand and shoot' reaction by starting the charge further from the enemy than their maximum missile range. The enemy will wait until you are close enough to be shot.
I'm not sure if that needed clarifying, but oh well...