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OllieC23
13-11-2010, 18:50
Hi guys,
Im new to Dark Eldar and love the whole Eldar aesthetic having a craftworld eldar army myself. Having read the new codex I cant figure out why DE dont use psykers in any shape or form.

Surely the pleasure seeking Eldar in M30 that became the DE would have had psykers and there must be even more ways to experience pleasure as a psyker over a standard DE.

Can anyone tell me why DE dont have psykers? (Or reference the page if this is really obvious and ive missed it)

Thanks,
ollie

spetswalshe
13-11-2010, 19:04
This (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263061) came up recently (naturally that was before the new codex came out).

I haven't read the new one but I imagine it's one of two things; either psychic power has died out, probably as a side-effect due to the predations of Slaanesh or the struggles of living in the webway - or, as was mentioned in the previous codex, a Dark Eldar psyker is considered an exceptionally pleasing plaything and as such is victimised immediately. No matter how mad your magic skills are, sooner or later someone is going to have you enslaved or tortured to death. And no self-respecting Archon is going to allow a Warrior into his kabal with psychic powers, for fear of having them used against himself. Much better to just sell him to the Haemonculi.

Lothlanathorian
13-11-2010, 19:09
The codex explains it. It is something along the lines of psykers are not allowed in the Dark City and, since they haven't used such abilities in so long, they've atrophied.

Hendarion
13-11-2010, 19:12
Well, even if they *would* use them, drawing energy from the warp is what I'd call at best dangerous, since Slaanesh is draining the soul constantly. Drawing warp-energy through the soul would end up probably in a very ugly possessed Dark Eldar or demon infestation. That's not something they would want to risk.

Son of Sanguinius
13-11-2010, 19:32
Hi guys,
Im new to Dark Eldar and love the whole Eldar aesthetic having a craftworld eldar army myself. Having read the new codex I cant figure out why DE dont use psykers in any shape or form.

Surely the pleasure seeking Eldar in M30 that became the DE would have had psykers and there must be even more ways to experience pleasure as a psyker over a standard DE.

Can anyone tell me why DE dont have psykers? (Or reference the page if this is really obvious and ive missed it)

Thanks,
ollie

I'm not sure you're asking the proper question. If you're asking what the background justification is for why Dark Eldar don't have units similar to Farseers and Warlocks, I think it is because the Dark Eldar were largely in the webway when Slaanesh was born, and while these saved them from an immediate soul-ripping death, it didn't cut off their link to She Who Thirsts entirely.

The Craftworld Eldar have soulstones to protect their souls from Slaanesh, and the Harlequins have some unexplained bond to Cegorach, which accomplishes the same thing. The Dark Eldar have no uniform method of protection, so their using of psychic powers has a much, much higher risk of attracting demonic predators. The Dark Eldar live almost exclusively in the webway as well, so drawing more demons to their cities is a risk to their entire civilization.

Remember that all Eldar are potential psykers. The only difference between having a strong, bright soul and being a psyker is the use of that soul to manipulate warp energies. Individuals can do this on a conscious and subconscious level, and the Dark Eldar seem to do the subconscious version, vampiricly consuming the energy of souls when said souls are at the height of emotion. Most creatures, through survival instinct, respond the most quickly and strongly to terror and pain, and causing terror and pain serves to assuage the Dark Eldar ego and need for dominance.

Lothlanathorian
13-11-2010, 20:18
Codex DEldar, pg. 5, paragraph 3, sentence 1:

"While countless generations of physical conflict have ensured the Dark Eldar have better reaction speed and greater physical strength than other elements of the Eldar race, the innate psychic abilities of their forebears have atrophied."

Hendarion
13-11-2010, 20:21
And why is that? Why don't they use psychic powers? ;) That has been the actual question.

Lothlanathorian
13-11-2010, 20:23
Well, because, at this point, they actually can't. Although, yes, the next sentence does explain that using those powers, if they had them, would very much be a like a flare that would draw the attention of Slaanesh directly on the Dark City. :p

Comp
13-11-2010, 20:40
Psychic powers are very dangerous for the Eldar - or anyone! - to use without proper training: the Path of the Warlock is described as being very long and very dangerous. The DE don't like the Path system and so would be very vulnerable if they tried to go about psychic powers in the same way they go about everything else!

DantesInferno
13-11-2010, 20:46
Hi guys,
Im new to Dark Eldar and love the whole Eldar aesthetic having a craftworld eldar army myself. Having read the new codex I cant figure out why DE dont use psykers in any shape or form.

Surely the pleasure seeking Eldar in M30 that became the DE would have had psykers and there must be even more ways to experience pleasure as a psyker over a standard DE.

Can anyone tell me why DE dont have psykers? (Or reference the page if this is really obvious and ive missed it)

Thanks,
ollie

Depends what you mean by "psykers".

Suppose that you mean active psykers, in the sense of psykers consciously drawing on Warp energy to, for example, fire lightning from their fingertips, play with runes to divine the future and so forth. Then the answer is no, the Dark Eldar don't employ such individuals in their armies for a few reasons that other posters have adverted to:
1. Active psykers make excellent soul-food, so any Dark Eldar displaying active psychic talent is liable to be captured and tortured by his buddies;
2. There's a big risk of daemonic infestation when a psyker as powerful as an Eldar taps into the Warp (though since the Dark Eldar spend the vast proportion of their time in the Webway, not realspace, this factor is often exaggerated);
3. In light of 1 and 2, there's a massive cultural taboo against active psychic activity in Commoragh, which means that any offenders are exiled or tortured immediately; and
4. In light of 3, a Dark Eldar who wishes to become an active psyker has no way of learning how to channel their powers safely or efficiently, because there's no one to teach them.

When considering the quote from the Codex that Lothlanathorian helpfully posted, it's important to realise that the "atrophy" of psychic abilities must refer largely to the cultural pressures on the Dark Eldar which have seen the practice of active psychic activity dwindle to nothing. The time period is too close to the Fall for there to be much of a physical effect from evolutionary pressures - I would have thought that there would have been at most 100 Dark Eldar generations since the Fall. While there might have been some minor physical change, its simply too little time for evolution to have killed off all Dark Eldar psychic abilities (as I will discuss further below).

Suppose now that you mean latent psykers. Then the answer is yes, every Dark Eldar in the army is a latent psyker. They're not consciously using the power of the warp to fire lightning from their fingertips, but they are subconsciously tapping into the warp to draw power and sustenance from the Warp - specifically, from the psychic energy caused by the pain and suffering of those around them.

This latent ability is at the core of Dark Eldar society, so it would be very surprising indeed if we were to conclude that the Dark Eldar have no means of accessing the warp whatsoever. It's why the Wych arenas are set up - to provide public displays of suffering so that masses of people can draw sustenance at once. It's how the Haemonculi can ensure the rebirth of "dead" Dark Eldar - suspend their bodies in a sarcophagus directly over a vast torture chamber to allow their bodies to absorb all the psychic energy of the pain and suffering.

If Dark Eldar had lost their abilities to access the warp entirely, their society would collapse instantly. They're not active psykers, but they're still one of the 40k factions most dependent on accessing the warp.

Iracundus
13-11-2010, 21:40
Suppose now that you mean latent psykers. Then the answer is yes, every Dark Eldar in the army is a latent psyker. They're not consciously using the power of the warp to fire lightning from their fingertips, but they are subconsciously tapping into the warp to draw power and sustenance from the Warp - specifically, from the psychic energy caused by the pain and suffering of those around them.


It need not even be active if subconscious drawing of power. The Dark Eldar are described as having their souls withering within them, as they have it drawn out over time by Slaanesh. Their souls could be viewed as a desiccating sponge, and when exposed to an environment filled with pain and suffering and/or departing souls they could be refilling themselves as a sponge soaks up water passively.

The example of Baron Sathonyx also shows the Dark Eldar still have the potential to develop their powers, and there would be no need to forbid use of psychic powers if the Dark Eldar were genuinely unable to develop their latent abilities. However lacking formal training, and a safe way to channel their powers, any Dark Eldar attempting to do so would put themselves and others at risk. The Baron seems to get around this by using his Farseer bones as an intermediary, almost like a Farseer using runes.

DantesInferno
13-11-2010, 22:42
It need not even be active if subconscious drawing of power. The Dark Eldar are described as having their souls withering within them, as they have it drawn out over time by Slaanesh. Their souls could be viewed as a desiccating sponge, and when exposed to an environment filled with pain and suffering and/or departing souls they could be refilling themselves as a sponge soaks up water passively.

Not quite sure I understand the distinction you're drawing here between "active" subconscious psychic activity and "passive" subconscious psychic activity. Mind expanding on this?

Iracundus
13-11-2010, 23:03
Not quite sure I understand the distinction you're drawing here between "active" subconscious psychic activity and "passive" subconscious psychic activity. Mind expanding on this?

A Dark Eldar reduced to a hand by enemy weapons on a raid as described in the Dark Eldar videos, is still described as able to absorb energy and regenerate. This is despite the complete lack of anything approaching a central nervous system, so it is not a conscious act, nor can it even be said to be subconscious.

DantesInferno
13-11-2010, 23:18
A Dark Eldar reduced to a hand by enemy weapons on a raid as described in the Dark Eldar videos, is still described as able to absorb energy and regenerate. This is despite the complete lack of anything approaching a central nervous system, so it is not a conscious act, nor can it even be said to be subconscious.

This gets back into the issue of exactly where, as far as the 40k universe is concerned, consciousness resides. Presumably the Dark Eldar reduced to a hand still had some element of its warp presence ("soul") which was feeding off the nearby suffering in the warp and channelling that energy back into realspace so that the Dark Eldar's physical form could be reconstituted.

And as we've seen (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282221&page=4), it's a live debate as to whether warp presences themselves carry some element of consciousness with them, or whether it's only when the Dark Eldar's physical form is reconstituted that consciousness returns. My preferred view is the latter though there are some problems with it.

EDIT: I suspect this debate could have been avoided if I'd used the word "unconscious" instead of "subconscious" when referring to the Dark Eldar's latent psychic power. I'm happy to adopt the modification to circumvent the cases where latent psychic power is used but the Dark Eldar isn't conscious at all.

Hellebore
13-11-2010, 23:54
Well the soul seems to be selfsupporting once created, at least for the eldar. Human souls just disintigrate back into the warp, indicating that whatever or however they're created, they aren't capable of independent action.

Thus a dark eldar soul, once the body that made it is broken will live on. What i'm not sure makes sense is how in realspace that soul is still protected from Slannesh when attached to a dead body. The risks of the warp only really become apparent to a soul when its realspace counterpart dies, otherwise eldar would be getting their souls consumed by slannesh at the moment of birth.

So how does a dark eldar's soul avoid these problems for long enough to get a new body? Somehow they seem to be keeping their soul linked to their corpse after death and thus retaining whatever protection that link provides. Perhaps this is simply sheer force of will? After so long debauching themselves their soul's control of itself is higher than a normal eldar's? That ironically they'd be more capable within a wraithguard than a craftworlder because their soul can keep its **** together better.

That or, like a physical clone, they create a soulclone by regenerating. Perhaps that is then fed upon by the original soul.

It would seem easier to use the former. Their souls cling to their corpses after death, using that realspace link as a shield against depredation. Then as the body is regrown, the soul is reinvigorated and it then 'backscans' the consciousness of the dark eldar into the newly formed mind.

Basically using the warp as a personality storage device instead of a machine and then implanting it into the new body.

Hellebore

Iracundus
14-11-2010, 03:18
That or, like a physical clone, they create a soulclone by regenerating. Perhaps that is then fed upon by the original soul.

It would seem easier to use the former. Their souls cling to their corpses after death, using that realspace link as a shield against depredation. Then as the body is regrown, the soul is reinvigorated and it then 'backscans' the consciousness of the dark eldar into the newly formed mind.


The DE videos describe how the Dark Eldar strive to get back within a day after a raid. This suggests there is some time limit to how long the soul may be able to anchored to the body, or alternatively a limit to how long before the soul fragment can no longer be attached to the body.

The problem is there is no real reason stated why the Dark Eldar soul should linger whereas a Craftworlder soul is discharged immediately either into the warp or into a soul stone.

As before, there is the question of whether the regenerated soul from the soul fragment is really the same individual or the equivalent of a "clone" in being functionally identical but really just a copy of the original individual, whose original soul was dumped into the warp.

DantesInferno
14-11-2010, 06:15
The DE videos describe how the Dark Eldar strive to get back within a day after a raid. This suggests there is some time limit to how long the soul may be able to anchored to the body, or alternatively a limit to how long before the soul fragment can no longer be attached to the body.

The problem is there is no real reason stated why the Dark Eldar soul should linger whereas a Craftworlder soul is discharged immediately either into the warp or into a soul stone.

One possible explanation might be the following:
Suppose that a Craftworld Eldar dies and her soulstone has been damaged and does not capture her soul/consciousness on her death. The standard view (and that of the Craftworlders themselves) is that the soul is immediately sucked up by Slaanesh. However, that's not necessarily exactly what happens - our Craftworld Eldar's soul might also linger around in the Warp, anchored to her dead body for a small period of time before it is devoured by daemons. Given that the Craftworlders haven't developed their latent psychic talents to feed off the suffering of others as the Dark Eldar have, they don't have any way of sustaining a soul while the body is rebuilt, nor of reconnecting a soul with the rebuilt body. As far as the Craftworlders are concerned, this means that the soul is damned immediately.

This would also explain why the Craftworlders don't have any of the same rejuvenation technology as the Dark Eldar - there wouldn't be any point in them developing it since they couldn't use the technology anyway.

An alternative might be the one Hellebore suggested earlier - the Dark Eldar, by virtue of their lifestyle and culture, are simply better able at keeping their soul coherent for a short time in the warp after death.


As before, there is the question of whether the regenerated soul from the soul fragment is really the same individual or the equivalent of a "clone" in being functionally identical but really just a copy of the original individual, whose original soul was dumped into the warp.

And the further related question of whether there's a relevant difference between the two positions...

Iracundus
14-11-2010, 07:17
And the further related question of whether there's a relevant difference between the two positions...

For the individual concerned, it could make a great difference as it means whether or not they are truly being saved from being devoured by Slaanesh. For outside observers, they may not notice any difference either way.

It would be ironic if the Dark Eldar think they have found a way to cheat death, only for the reality to be different, and all they are really doing is creating "clones" of the original individual, while the individual still gets damned.

RBLFunk
14-11-2010, 07:19
If I recall the video correctly, a whole Eldar can be regrown from a finger, and I think Jes mentioned that an Eldar might keep a finger bone somewhere safe back in Commoragh as insurance to dieing on an outing and being irretrievable.
The 'soul lingering with the body for a while after death' isn't sounding like a very strong hypothesis.

Could you grow several copies of the same Eldar from several body fragments which would then be host to several copied souls?

The 'atrophied psychic powers' thing seems like a lazy explanation that doesn't appear justified by everything else established about Eldar.
And the regrowing/regenerating/cloning dead warriors thing, which I really like, seems poorly thought out so far.

Iracundus
14-11-2010, 07:34
Another possibility is the soul fragment left with the Haemonculi "calls" to the original soul dumped into the warp, and the two re-integrate over time. This would explain why you don't have 2 fragments and produce 2 of the same individual. Of course the problem is how do you guarantee the soul hasn't been torn to pieces by daemons within the day.

DantesInferno
14-11-2010, 08:00
For the individual concerned, it could make a great difference as it means whether or not they are truly being saved from being devoured by Slaanesh. For outside observers, they may not notice any difference either way.

It would be ironic if the Dark Eldar think they have found a way to cheat death, only for the reality to be different, and all they are really doing is creating "clones" of the original individual, while the individual still gets damned.

Not sure if you've seen the movie The Prestige, but it's got a fairly similar theme. Good movie too.

Which is the individual and which the clone? If neither of them have any way of knowing, does it matter?


If I recall the video correctly, a whole Eldar can be regrown from a finger, and I think Jes mentioned that an Eldar might keep a finger bone somewhere safe back in Commoragh as insurance to dieing on an outing and being irretrievable.
The 'soul lingering with the body for a while after death' isn't sounding like a very strong hypothesis.

While there are some weaknesses with the theory, I'm at a loss to come up with an alternative consistent with the existing picture of the Warp/realspace interaction.

A possibility, but one that I'm loathe to suggest, is that a Dark Eldar is able to separate bits of his soul as insurance, in a way similar to Horocruxes in Harry Potter. It just seems hopelessly hokey to me, so I'd prefer any alternative, even if it's got some flaws.


Could you grow several copies of the same Eldar from several body fragments which would then be host to several copied souls?

The possibility of growing multiple copies of the same Eldar was discussed in depth in the previous thread to which I provided a link above.

My view is that there wouldn't necessarily be a problem with it in theory. If "souls" are a by-product of sentience and effect on the warp, then multiple copies of a single Dark Eldar should produce multiple "souls".

However, it must be kept in mind though that humanity's attempts at cloning do not appear to have been a success on that from (looking at you, Afriel Strain).

Though on the other hand, Fabius Bile's clones have never, as far as I'm aware, been described as having the same "soullessness" from which the Afriel Strain suffer. Given Fabius Bile's apparent stint in Commorragh, this could be a possible explanation for the superiority of his techniques over that of the Imperium... Food for thought, anyway.

Iracundus
14-11-2010, 08:22
A possibility, but one that I'm loathe to suggest, is that a Dark Eldar is able to separate bits of his soul as insurance, in a way similar to Horocruxes in Harry Potter. It just seems hopelessly hokey to me, so I'd prefer any alternative, even if it's got some flaws.


It is exactly what happens as stated in the Dark Eldar Codex, quoted below. The question that we've been discussing though is how a fragment allows for survival of the individual as a whole.



The pact states that the Haemonculi will regenerate the warrior's body should he die, and in exchange, the seeker will leave the Haemonculi a permanent portion of his soul. p. 12, Dark Eldar Codex



Which is the individual and which the clone? If neither of them have any way of knowing, does it matter?

It may not matter for others observing the two. But for the individuals involved it could matter greatly because their experiences could theoretically diverge. Functionally the same is not the same as truly being the same individual.

It matters in the same way that individual identical twins matter and are separate individuals. Despite being identical genetically, they can have different experiences, (even if nothing else, they do not occupy the same position so their viewpoint of the same event will still differ). Even if you kept them together throughout their entire lives, their experiences would be slightly different. Even if they hypothetically thought the same and had the same experiences, killing one of them off would mean the extinguishing of that individual. From the perspective of the others, they may still have someone who thinks the same and acts the same, but from the perspective of the one killed off things are entirely different because they would be dead.

DantesInferno
14-11-2010, 08:47
It is exactly what happens as stated in the Dark Eldar Codex, quoted below. The question that we've been discussing though is how a fragment allows for survival of the individual as a whole.

Yep. It's the mechanism by which the survival occurs that is up for debate. Something is clearly needed to keep at least some part of the Dark Eldar's soul anchored to its realspace body.


It may not matter for others observing the two. But for the individuals involved it could matter greatly because their experiences could theoretically diverge. Functionally the same is not the same as truly being the same individual.

This is not quite as uncontroversial as you might think. Some of the leading theories of personal identity and minds in modern philosophy are functionalist ones.

I'm not saying they're definitely right but it's an issue which is open for debate. For a technical look at the topic, see <here> (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-personal/).


It matters in the same way that individual identical twins matter and are separate individuals. Despite being identical genetically, they can have different experiences, (even if nothing else, they do not occupy the same position so their viewpoint of the same event will still differ). Even if you kept them together throughout their entire lives, their experiences would be slightly different. Even if they hypothetically thought the same and had the same experiences, killing one of them off would mean the extinguishing of that individual. From the perspective of the others, they may still have someone who thinks the same and acts the same, but from the perspective of the one killed off things are entirely different because they would be dead.

I'm not denying that identical twins matter, nor that they're not separate individuals. First there are two of them; second (as you point out) they have different experiences, different cultural exposure etc, so they are not functionally identical.

Even if they were completely functionally identical, there are clearly two distinct consciousnesses involved. The reason I raised the issue, though, is that if there were two functionally identical individuals, it would be pointless to ask which was the original and which was the clone. They're both equally as "original" and equally as "clone".

To get back to the topic somewhat, I would imagine that the problematic issues discussed here concerning the possibility of cloning multiple Dark Eldar to maturity from the same piece of dead tissue would be acknowledged in Dark Eldar society, and would lead to a very strong cultural prohibition against the practice...

The Haemonculi aren't likely to encourage a practice of allowing yourself to be cloned on your death if you've got no way of knowing whether it's really you coming back, or for that matter that there are going to be multiple copies of you when you do revive.

Iracundus
14-11-2010, 09:17
This is not quite as uncontroversial as you might think. Some of the leading theories of personal identity and minds in modern philosophy are functionalist ones.


I am not speaking from just the philisophical point of view but a biology based one. Two individuals even if functionally identical initially, would rapidly start to diverge because their experiences cannot be identical once they start functioning. The atoms they consume, the individual likelihood of developing a disease, all those probabilistic events that occur may have different outcomes for the two individuals.



Even if they were completely functionally identical, there are clearly two distinct consciousnesses involved. The reason I raised the issue, though, is that if there were two functionally identical individuals, it would be pointless to ask which was the original and which was the clone. They're both equally as "original" and equally as "clone".

Only from perspective of outsiders or those unaware of the chronology of which came first. For the individuals themselves, they woudl be aware and from the perspective of the original it is a matter of critical importance as it is the issue of whether it truly is him surviving or just the replacement of him.



To get back to the topic somewhat, I would imagine that the problematic issues discussed here concerning the possibility of cloning multiple Dark Eldar to maturity from the same piece of dead tissue would be acknowledged in Dark Eldar society, and would lead to a very strong cultural prohibition against the practice...


Either that or the mechanism precludes the creation of multiple versions. If it is the original soul that is for example re-attached or drawn back, then it would be the first regrown body that gets it.



The Homunculi aren't likely to encourage a practice of allowing yourself to be cloned on your death if you've got no way of knowing whether it's really you coming back, or for that matter that there are going to be multiple copies of you when you do revive.

The Haemonculi may not know, or be so mad they don't care. It could also be a cover-up. After all if the regrown individual is functionally identical, outsiders wouldn't be able to tell.

DantesInferno
14-11-2010, 09:40
I am not speaking from just the philisophical point of view but a biology based one. Two individuals even if functionally identical initially, would rapidly start to diverge because their experiences cannot be identical once they start functioning. The atoms they consume, the individual likelihood of developing a disease, all those probabilistic events that occur may have different outcomes for the two individuals.

I agree that once the two individuals start to diverge (and they will inevitably do so almost instantaneously), it makes sense to talk about them separately.

But at the point at which they are still functionally identical?


Only from perspective of outsiders or those unaware of the chronology of which came first. For the individuals themselves, they woudl be aware and from the perspective of the original it is a matter of critical importance as it is the issue of whether it truly is him surviving or just the replacement of him.

Assuming, as I thought we were, that the "individual" and the "clone" are functionally identical at the time of rebirth, there's no way of knowing which is the individual and which the clone either from the perspective of others or from the perspectives of the "individual" or the "clone".

Each has the same continuity of memories - a continuity stretching back to before their rebirth. It's not like the "individual" can remember past events but that the clone is just a blank.


Either that or the mechanism precludes the creation of multiple versions. If it is the original soul that is for example re-attached or drawn back, then it would be the first regrown body that gets it.

This could end up with cloning which has the same problems as the Imperials' technique - you can produce multiple self-conscious beings but they end up soulless.

However, as I noted before, Fabius Bile seems to have solved this problem. And he has had some contact with the Haemonculi, so it's possible that either Fabius or the Haemonculi have come up with a way of cloning which ensures that the clones have souls, and then have taught the other party this technique.


The Haemonculi may not know, or be so mad they don't care. It could also be a cover-up. After all if the regrown individual is functionally identical, outsiders wouldn't be able to tell.

Yep. My point was merely that it would be bad for business to allow uncertainty about the continuity of identity for the regrown individual - and allowing multiple cloning would be a great way to cause such uncertainty.

Iracundus
14-11-2010, 10:19
Could you quote the claim regarding Fabius Bile and the difference from the Afriel Strain? For that matter, could you please quote the section on the Afriel Strain's problem?

DantesInferno
14-11-2010, 22:31
Could you quote the claim regarding Fabius Bile and the difference from the Afriel Strain? For that matter, could you please quote the section on the Afriel Strain's problem?

Relevant bits of the Afriel Strain background (Aus WD 303):
"For no reason that their creators can ascertain, the Afriels appear to attract the animosity of other warriors, and suffer from the most appalling bad luck."
"Afriels are identifiable by the fact that they are universally albino ... This only adds to the air that they have about them that 'something just isn't right' with these warriors."
"These warriors inspire a particular loathing in other beings, and so all enemies count them as Preferred Enemy."

While this obviously doesn't explicitly say that they're soulless, their aura of loathing is precisely that which you would expect from Untouchables or weak Pariahs. To quote Inquisitor:


Untouchables are psychic blanks, with little or no registering presence in warpspace, rendering them virtually immune to psychic powers. But similarly they are soulless individuals whose presence gives those nearby a disturbed feeling. The most extreme Untouchables are the Pariahs, who have a negative presence in the warp, absorbing psychic energy. They cause fear and revulsion in all who meet them and are used by the Culexus Temple of the Officio Assassinorum to annihilate enemy psykers.

On the other hand, Fabius Bile's creations don't seem to have this problem. The 2nd ed Chaos Codex (and feel free to check more recent sources, I don't have them to hand) says that Fabius uses the black technology of cloning to create thousands of "perfect warriors" within a matter of months. It goes on to say that the New Men are Fabius' proudest creations and have spread throughout the galaxy, but "are almost impossible to locate until their incipient psychosis sends them on a manic killing spree". There's no mention of any aura of revulsion (which would make them easier to locate), nor any psychic abnormality (which would also make them easier to locate).

Finally, I haven't read Black Tide by James Swallow, but internet spoilers indicate that:
the Blood Angels are sent to kill Fabius Bile and recover a vial of their Primarch's blood. They think they have succeeded, but it turns out that Fabius has cloned himself multiple times. None of the spoilers seem to indicate that there's any aura of unpleasantness to differentiate Fabius' clones.

Perhaps someone who's read Black Tide could throw some light on this?

OllieC23
15-11-2010, 11:14
Ok Thanks for all of your answers,

seems that DE dont have farseer/ warlock type psykers as they have been bred out of the DE genepool. Mainly as (initially) Archons would like to torture them to death, but since the fall it essentially invited Slaanesh into Commoragh.

Think thats about it, cheers