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View Full Version : True Kin? What claims?



bignbadbum
13-11-2010, 22:42
So, the Dark Eldar refer to themselves as the "True Kin" yes? I had a discussion with my friend the other day about what claims or rights do they have to calling themselves as such? Overwhelming Dark Eldar arrogance aside of course.

We looked at most the groups and thought, they either all have some sort of claim to that title, or none at all.

We thought, perhaps the DE claim as such because they haven't changed their ways from what their empire was before the Fall. Then the fact that Commoragh was outside of the jurisdiction of said empire came up. They can't claim to be remnants of the old empire and those "original(if you will)" Eldar if their Capital wasn't part of the pre-fall Empire to begin with and that the DE rose from the ashes of the old empire.

Next we thought, perhaps the Chaos Eldar should be the ones called "True Kin". They are the ones who remained in the heart of their empire and still inhabit it after the Fall.

Craftworlders well.. we couldn't think of a reason why they would consider themselves as such and in the new DE codex it even has an Eldar mention how she believed in their lifestyle they were less then Eldar which, to me, negated their claim.

Then we thought the Exodites might be the best candidates, they still maintain their technology from the pre-fall empire, and were colonies of it during that time period and represented the empire best before the cults collapsed society.

With all that said I would like to hear from others and perhaps some Eldar experts why the DE see themselves as such or what claims do that have to do so.

Shinzui
13-11-2010, 23:00
I think you mistaking for Trueborn which is a Dark Eldar which is born normally and not in a testube or other artificial mean. A Trueborn is considered higher socially and treated as such.

Hellebore
13-11-2010, 23:59
Well they'd probably claim to be the true kin of the 'real' eldar - those that caused the fall.

The Dark Eldar have been living as their forebears did and so to avoid cognitive disonnance probably claim to be the true kin as a justification for their actions. Otherwise they'd look at their way of life and realise what a stupid descision it was.

Hellebore

Cry of the Wind
14-11-2010, 00:29
I figure when you are as arrogant as they are of course you are leading the right and "true" Eldar life. They are right to the point they are living as the Eldar did just prior to the fall but I'm pretty sure the soul eating to stay alive part can because of Slannesh not because of any cultural heritage thing. Long story short don't argue with a Dark Eldar unless you have it cornered with several guns on it/already firing and possibly already restrained. They believe they are right and assuming they have the might in their favour will prove it to you anyway they see fit...

Clockwork-Knight
14-11-2010, 02:43
I think that whole notion of "true kin" is only fanmade, unless it's been written into the new dark eldar codex.

Brother Cronos1
14-11-2010, 03:17
Now I don't have the codex right next to me atm, so i may be a little off on actual details, but IIRC, Commorragh was port city for the Eldar Empire before the fall, but since it was outside of the rule of the council, this is were a lot of the "Nobles" went to have their fun. Secondly, a lot of the Archons in the DE society claim that they have been around since the Fall. Lastly, the DE have not steered from their ways since the Fall.... which gives the members of the DE society the "belief" that they are "True Kin" of the Fallen empire over all other Eldar who have denounced the old ways....

Iracundus
14-11-2010, 03:21
The Craftworlders, like Biel-Tan, who lay claim to being inheritors of the Eldar Empire would link themselves to traditional Eldar virtues and ideals, from the Empire at its height before it became decadent.

The Dark Eldar, probably more the noble houses rather than the modern Kabals, would be doing so on the basis the others were cowards and left the Empire. It even says in the Dark Eldar Codex that they view all others as either cowards (i.e. likely other Eldar), or prey.

DantesInferno
14-11-2010, 08:28
A representative explanation is provided by a passage on p 33 of the 3rd ed Dark Eldar Codex, showing the competing views of Koradhil, an Exarch of the Striking Scorpions, and Araqir, a Haemonculus.

Craftworld perspective:

Why could they not accept the fate the Gods had dealt them? Why did they continue this pointless, futile battle against a destiny preordained many millennia ago? Why did so much blood, from Eldar and from others, have to be spilt for them to continue their depraved, unworthy lives?

Dark Eldar perspective:

They resist us because they are foolish ... They resist us, just as they resist their true selves. They are blinded to the truth. They have seen the vile, ugly beasts that run ruinous across our kingdoms and they have bowed their heads to them. They lock themselves in that soulless prison they call their home and deny themselves the pleasures and pains that are their rightful heritage. They have lost the right to rule, yet in their jealousy they cannot allow themselves to stand aside while we take what is ours.

spetswalshe
14-11-2010, 20:11
I think it's pretty certain that every Eldar faction considers themselves the only 'true' Eldar, much like every politician considers himself or his own party the only one capable of leadership, and every voter considers his opinion to be the only sane one.

I do think the Dark Eldar have the best claim to it, though. Exodites were feral primitives on the fringes of the Empire even before the Fall, Craftworlders have turned into nomadic monks, Corsairs are a mix between other three types - but the Dark Eldar are likely the ones most pre-Fall Eldar would align themselves with. They were so debauched that they actually created Slaanesh out of nothing, after all; a typical slaughterparty in Commorragh is probably tame by comparison.

Askil the Undecided
14-11-2010, 23:15
It must be recalled that Craftworlders are remnants of a faction of pre-fall society that left on the craftworlds and the exodites have lived in the same way for quite some time longer.

So if one ponders who would the pre-fall Eldar be most likely to team up with? Well it depends if they are a pre-fall Exodite, Craftworlder, Noble of Commorragh or homeworld debaunched sadomasochistic hedonist slaanesh parent

Iracundus
14-11-2010, 23:26
It really depends on what you perceive as the "true" Eldar.

The Exodites are emulating a perhaps idealized image of Eldar before they became the dominant galactic power.

The Craftworlders are emulating the uncorrupt Eldar Empire at its height. From their perspective, the subsequent decadence and Dark Eldar are a departure from what Eldar are.

The Dark Eldar are a snapshot of the decadent Eldar immediately pre-Fall, and their claim is based on immediate continuation of the Eldar Empire as it was just prior to the Fall.


In a way, one can use a Lord of the Rings comparison, at least between the Craftworlders and Dark Eldar. They can be compared to Numenoreans. The Dark Eldar are like the Black Numenoreans, ones that became prideful and corrupted. The Craftworlders are those that stayed true to the older ideals and fled before the storm and sinking of Numenor. After the Fall, they exist much as Gondor and the Black Numenoreans in their enclaves further south.

Paul Nexus
15-11-2010, 00:57
The Craftworlders and Exodites have to forcefully impose their way of life, thus are lying to themselves. I doesn't matter what the Eldar were doing X years before the fall, that's not the natural direction the bulk of the race took.

Dark Eldar pretty much keep doing what most of the race was doing naturally, albeit with the added soul consumption. Closer to the race as a whole.

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-11-2010, 08:54
but the Dark Eldar are likely the ones most pre-Fall Eldar would align themselves with.

Not sure that's true. It's what the Dark Eldars would like to believe but the impression I got was that they are the remnants of the most extreme pleasure cultists, many of whom took to live in pockets in the webway to better indulge in there favourite hedonistic pursuits. I don't think any of the surviving Eldars really resemble the days of the Eldar Empire, each of them being a smaller and rather extreme subgroup from those days.

That the other subgroups was created in response to the Dark Eldars (so to speak) seems to be the case but that doesn't mean the Dark Eldars are the "real" inheritors of the Eldar Empire.

Stilton
15-11-2010, 14:28
Well they'd probably claim to be the true kin of the 'real' eldar - those that caused the fall.

The Dark Eldar have been living as their forebears did and so to avoid cognitive disonnance probably claim to be the true kin as a justification for their actions.

Justification schmuschtification. It is merely their perspective.

Even if you were to take as truth the much biased ramblings of Spiritseer Iyanna Arienal, on p7 of the Codex, where she claims that many Dark Eldar realise that the dire nature of their state of being is what drives them to such heights of cruelty, yet maintain that they act only upon their own desires, it says nothing whatsoever about their perspective on the matter at hand.


Otherwise they'd look at their way of life and realise what a stupid descision it was.

That phrasing trivialises the matter and makes it sound as if the majority of the ancient Eldar simply, on a whim one day, decided to go all decadent and spend all day long having freak sex and committing murder. ;)

It is common knowledge that the unrestrained Eldar mind is a capricious and prodigal beast, which in consideration reveals the inevitability of The Fall, and how the Dark Eldar are the only ones that are, infact, true to themselves and others about what they truly are.

Also on p7: "We of the Craftworlds deny all such urges, and in doing so become less than ourselves..."

DantesInferno, spetswalshe and Paul Nexus, among others, have it right. :D

Polaria
15-11-2010, 15:35
We thought, perhaps the DE claim as such because they haven't changed their ways from what their empire was before the Fall. Then the fact that Commoragh was outside of the jurisdiction of said empire came up. They can't claim to be remnants of the old empire and those "original(if you will)" Eldar if their Capital wasn't part of the pre-fall Empire to begin with and that the DE rose from the ashes of the old empire.

Codex Dark Eldar explains that many ancient eldar noble-houses and pleasure-cults maintained their own subrealms in webway. These are the origins of many current day Dark Eldar and they were very much part of empire.

Commorragh was, quoting codex verbatim: "...too valuable to Eldar as a whole to belong to any single aspect of their empire. Precisely because of this autonomy, and the fact that it existed outside the jurisdictions of the greatest Eldar councils of the time..."

That doesn't mean Commorragh was a sovereign state outside Eldar empire. It means it was autonomous part of the the Eldar empire.

Askil the Undecided
16-11-2010, 13:32
The Craftworlders and Exodites have to forcefully impose their way of life, thus are lying to themselves. I doesn't matter what the Eldar were doing X years before the fall, that's not the natural direction the bulk of the race took.

Dark Eldar pretty much keep doing what most of the race was doing naturally, albeit with the added soul consumption. Closer to the race as a whole.

All cutures forcefully impose a way of life. A shared way of life is part of how one defines a culture without some force it's isn't an imposition it's a suggestion.

Phoebus
17-11-2010, 17:42
The Craftworlders are emulating the uncorrupt Eldar Empire at its height. From their perspective, the subsequent decadence and Dark Eldar are a departure from what Eldar are.
I don't know... Weren't the Paths as a new creation of the part of the Craftworld Eldar?

SgtTaters
17-11-2010, 18:03
I don't know... Weren't the Paths as a new creation of the part of the Craftworld Eldar?

Yes, they're a reaction to the decadence of the Empire.

In an interview Jes or Phil said of the Eldar factions that each is but a fragment of the old Empire

Dark Eldar have the physical strength and bloodthirst of the old Eldar warriors, but they have lost their psychic powers.
Craftworld Eldar have retained the psychic mastery but live in strictly controlled conditions

Another way it was up is...
Exodites, responding to the corruption, looked to the past, or what they think the past was and emulate that lifestyle. They escape Slaanesh by going back to a time before its existence.

Craftworlders are frozen in time, neither looking past nor forward and separating themselves from the present. They want to preserve what culture they have left with the Path. They escape Slaanesh by locking their emotions away from excess.

Dark Eldar live in the present. The Fall happened, they don't care. What is their future? They don't care, they live for the Now. They escape Slaanesh by simply refusing to die.

Harlequins though, acknowledge their past, learn from the present, and look to the future. They elude Slaanesh but plan on completely freeing their people frim the grip of Chaos.


None of them are the Empire Eldar.

Formerly Wu
17-11-2010, 22:03
Craftworlders are frozen in time, neither looking past nor forward and separating themselves from the present. They want to preserve what culture they have left with the Path. They escape Slaanesh by locking their emotions away from excess.


Wouldn't the Craftworlders represent the Future in this rubric? The stereotypical Eldar motivation is, after all, an attempt by a Farseer to prevent or mitigate some foretold catastrophe. From Biel-tan's view of the Maiden Worlds as future homes of the Eldar to Eldrad's morbid pronunciations of the birth of Ynnead, the Craftworlders seem unusually concerned with shepherding their particular vision of the Eldar race safely into the future, or at least to the End Times.

Meanwhile, they flee and cower from Slaanesh, refusing to face their own creation; and spend their present repressing their true nature via the Paths.

Eumerin
17-11-2010, 23:53
The way that I see it is something along these lines -

The Exodites are the Amish - admittedly Amish riding laser-equipped dinosaurs and using knight mini-phantoms, but Amish nonetheless.

The Craftworlds are like idealized 1950s US suburbs - a culture with strong moral guidelines that - when loosened - end up resulting in the sudden changes and crazyness that was the '60s (the latter in this case loosely representing the spread of decadence that resulted in the Fall). Everyone looks happy, but at the same time it's a really, really, REALLY bad idea to get caught violating the societal mores... (which, in Craftworld society, represent a real threat to the rest of the population)

The Dark Eldar are your post-apocalyptic gang. Society's collapsed, and the only thing keeping the gang together is the sheer willpower of the person at the top. And the only hard and fast rule is to avoid upsetting the guy above you in the pecking order. Outsiders, of course, aren't in the pecking order...

As for Harlequins... unfortunately not enough about them has been revealed to really draw a comparison along the lines of the above.

ashendant
18-11-2010, 00:15
The way that I see it is something along these lines -

The Exodites are the Amish - admittedly Amish riding laser-equipped dinosaurs and using knight mini-phantoms, but Amish nonetheless.

The Craftworlds are like idealized 1950s US suburbs - a culture with strong moral guidelines that - when loosened - end up resulting in the sudden changes and crazyness that was the '60s (the latter in this case loosely representing the spread of decadence that resulted in the Fall). Everyone looks happy, but at the same time it's a really, really, REALLY bad idea to get caught violating the societal mores... (which, in Craftworld society, represent a real threat to the rest of the population)

The Dark Eldar are your post-apocalyptic gang. Society's collapsed, and the only thing keeping the gang together is the sheer willpower of the person at the top. And the only hard and fast rule is to avoid upsetting the guy above you in the pecking order. Outsiders, of course, aren't in the pecking order...

As for Harlequins... unfortunately not enough about them has been revealed to really draw a comparison along the lines of the above.

Harlequins are based on the modern fundamentalist of the 21st century

Hellebore
18-11-2010, 00:20
Justification schmuschtification. It is merely their perspective.


Er, a justification is simply a perspective you hold to be correct. Few people do things they think on a personal level are wrong, that's what cognitive disonnance is.



Even if you were to take as truth the much biased ramblings of Spiritseer Iyanna Arienal, on p7 of the Codex, where she claims that many Dark Eldar realise that the dire nature of their state of being is what drives them to such heights of cruelty, yet maintain that they act only upon their own desires, it says nothing whatsoever about their perspective on the matter at hand.


It says in the codex that they revel in what they do and pity the craftworlders for not claiming their birthright. So yes, it does show their perspective on it. And their perspective is 'what we do is our right'.



That phrasing trivialises the matter and makes it sound as if the majority of the ancient Eldar simply, on a whim one day, decided to go all decadent and spend all day long having freak sex and committing murder. ;)


A stupid decision for the Dark Eldar, not the old empire. They were given the most graphic demonstration of what their wantoness caused and suffer continually for it via Slannesh's leeching of their soul. Yet they still continue to perform those actions they've already been shown to be flawed and a BAD CHOICE.

It was a stupid decision to continue with the old way of life. They didn't learn anything from the fall.



It is common knowledge that the unrestrained Eldar mind is a capricious and prodigal beast, which in consideration reveals the inevitability of The Fall, and how the Dark Eldar are the only ones that are, infact, true to themselves and others about what they truly are.

Also on p7: "We of the Craftworlds deny all such urges, and in doing so become less than ourselves..."


No, it is common knowledge that the eldar feel emotions much more keenly than anyone else. That's got nothing to do with being capricious.

Eldar have existed for 60 million years. Of those 60,000,000 years, approximately 5000 of them were spent in this state of hedonistic excess. That's approximately 0.0083r% of the entire existence of the eldar species.

So no, it's not their 'true' state in the slightest. If it was then they would have spent a far larger proportion of their existence in that state as it would be one they'd naturally gravitate toward. Of the 4 sections of eldar society in existence today, THREE of them do not follow the old empire's hedonistic ways, having rejected them.

The dark eldar are in the minority both chronologically and sociologically.


Hellebore

ashendant
18-11-2010, 00:26
The dark eldar are in the minority both chronologically and sociologically.

Hellebore
But apparently not a minority in the eldar total population