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Chapel
14-11-2010, 23:56
Anyone got some suggestions on how I can not get my helmet handed to me?
I've been playing some 1500pts games against my friends lizardmen and getting stomped every game.

I've been running two blocks of warriors with shields, hand weapons, and mark of Tzeench, a chaos lord, a sorcerer with Death magic and dispel scroll, hell cannon, and chariot of khorne.

His slann is just to overwhelming and I can't stand up to his temple guard or spearmen.

Any suggestions would seriously help!

Narcissus
15-11-2010, 02:33
I wonder the same thing myself! I have only played 1 game against Lizardmen but the blocks of Saurus buffed by a Slann seem pretty hard. Hard to break with cold blooded too. I would be interested to hear how to survive a magic phase against a Slann (not blowing up, negating some of the buffs).

papabearshane
15-11-2010, 02:50
Drop death magic for Shadow for the debuffs. Works wonders when hes easyer to wound.

Other then this try a Sorcerer Lord instead of a Killy Lord and try to out deploy him if you can run some 5 strong units of dogs for your first few deployments.

meneroth
15-11-2010, 04:07
the thing that the lore of light spells don't do is benefit strength or toughness at all, so if you can put shadow on them and drop thier T or S by even just one it will force the lizards to rethink just charging in. no amount of attacks will worry your chaos warriors if they are only get hit at strength 2.

Also, i wouldnt run a chaos lord at 1500 points, just use an exalted hero. or just a sorcerer really, it will save you the points to pick up some other stuff that will make it easier on you. chaos lords are rediculously expensive, not worth it till the points get higher.

Grey Mage
15-11-2010, 05:09
Take a few 'spare' units- Marauder Horseman, with throwing spears, would be excellent. At 70pts for 5 models theyre a good deal, and will let you hunt down some salamanders... your opponent is bringing sallies, right?

The Banner of Rage and the common banner that gives you the armor peircing rule would also be good investments if your looking to make your warrior blocks killier. Chaos Warriors are better than saurus base, and these might help push you over the edge.

And of course, you could always try beating him at his own game- Sorceror Lord with Third Eye of Tzeentch would make a good investment.

Rajhald
15-11-2010, 06:30
first off, take warriors marked with Khorne and halberds. Don't worry about stopping his slann just get in combat, he has so many points tied up in that slann unit with TG at 1500 it is unbelievable. Take a lvl 2, with the puppet. My guess is that he is taking the know all spells and extra dice per spell.

Just those 2 blocks of warriors should destroy him in combat, also a dirty trick is that characters don't have to be in base to base to accept a challenge. Roll into his temple guard and challenge, cut the champ out then challenge the slann and eventually cut him down.

It is a tough match up for lizards when ran this way, I have a hard time beating chaos even with the slann.

Vsurma
15-11-2010, 06:40
The slann can of course refuse the challenge and lose the 1 S3 attack that it is contributing to the combat.

Khorne warriors with halberds, run into saurus blocks and win.

Course the problem is if he runs chamo skink units or even normal skink units you might just find your khorne warriors running off in the wrong direction since you have to persue.

Congaline of skinks charges rear 1 wide 6-8 deep.

You get 2 warriors to attack with 6 attacks in total, he loses combat, runs, you follow.
It will take you another turn to turn around, you get to move 4" if you make your swift reform.

At the very worst it slows you down 1 turn, most likely 2, every time he does this.

Definately make sure you have a tzeentzch mage to kill the skinks.

BaSe
15-11-2010, 06:47
At a lower point game as this I'd loose the lord, run 2 lvl 2s and with the saved points add a unit of marauders. That would give you 3units for him to consider. Out of interest how big are the warrior units? As far as magic with lvl 2s goes personally I go tzeentch and nurgle (I don't seem to do well with death).

ROCKY
15-11-2010, 13:44
another problem your army has is that its TOOO expensive for such a small game. I would ditch the hellcannon. in these small games you need to make everything count. take a lvl2 wizard with the lore of shadows or (in my preference) tzeentch, and a bsb (make him MOT, with talisma of preservation, and a halberd). as for your units, you need a marauder block 40 of them with fc and mok are only 250pts. take a big unit of warriors with mok and halberds. take a chariot, and with the remaining points i would suggest taking some trolls. have fun and kick his gecko wannabe butt.

Tzeentch Lover
15-11-2010, 14:15
The local LM players have come to really hate Wulfrik.

"Like hell you're refusing my challenge, you fat amphibian!" :p

I second taking a Sorc Lord with Shadow though(Hero Sorcerers can only take Death or Fire). Such a nice lore.

Also, let Throne of Vines go off. You can dispell it later. You can even let re-growth go if you are short on DD. For the love of Tzeentch though, DON'T LET FLESH TO STONE GO OFF! T6/8 lizards is BAAAAAD!:skull:

SilasOfTheLambs
15-11-2010, 14:43
Let me put in a plug for a really big marauder horde in this list. It's one of the few units that will give saurus warriors as good as it gets.

Alternatively, as previously stated, halberd warriors> Sword and Board warriors in this case. Rage Banner or MoK will help. You can overwhelm saurus point for point.

Narcissus
15-11-2010, 17:24
Is it cube of darkness that passes miscasts on to you? That is pretty nasty. I guess the puppet may be key to avoiding terrible miscasts.

ROCKY
15-11-2010, 18:18
Is it cube of darkness that passes miscasts on to you? That is pretty nasty. I guess the puppet may be key to avoiding terrible miscasts.

ummm no bro. that would be cupped hands of the old geezers. the cube basically shuts down a magic phase.

Defender of Ulthuan
15-11-2010, 18:42
Why would your opponent fear Wulfrik? Most LM players I know make their slann immune to all but magic attacks, and Wulfrik literally has no dice in this instance.

In the words of admiral Nelson (though my movie-oriented source may not be the best): "Just go straight at 'em."

Break his unit and he will die.

*eidt: Temple Guard 'aint shiz.

Chapel
15-11-2010, 19:11
I thought you were only able to challange once per combat. If I charge in with a character and a champion, I'll only be able to challange one. Odds are his slann will refuse and the unit champion steps up.

Also, can you use halberds with shields?

Glen_Savet
15-11-2010, 19:57
You cannot use halberds and shields simultaneously during close combat. If you have both however, the shield still provides armor against shooting.

Tzeentch Lover
15-11-2010, 20:11
I thought you were only able to challange once per combat. If I charge in with a character and a champion, I'll only be able to challange one. Odds are his slann will refuse and the unit champion steps up.

Wulfrik forces characters to accept.


Why would your opponent fear Wulfrik? Most LM players I know make their slann immune to all but magic attacks, and Wulfrik literally has no dice in this instance.
They normally don't do that around here.

anglacon
15-11-2010, 20:41
Only 1 challenge per combat at one time. when the champ dies, re challenge and the slaan will refuse- then he cannot use his BSB ability or LD.
Not great against cold blooded, but better than nothing!

Vsurma
15-11-2010, 20:59
A life slann might just take that challenge, it has a 4+ ward and if it can heal the following turn it might just be ok.

Jormi_Boced
15-11-2010, 21:14
Only 1 challenge per combat at one time. when the champ dies, re challenge and the slaan will refuse- then he cannot use his BSB ability or LD.
Not great against cold blooded, but better than nothing!

I believe it doesn't affect the BSB ability at all in 8th, just makes it so he can't attack or use his leadership. It also allows a couple more TG to attack.

WarmbloodedLizard
15-11-2010, 22:05
I think the slann can never leave the second rank, ever. therefore he auto-declines challenges and moves to the... 2nd rank, right, because he can't move. the unit loses his leadership, the end. the difference between re-rollable coldblooded Ld10 and L9 is very close to zero.

so challenging a slann does absolutely nothing.

Enigmatik1
16-11-2010, 04:39
I think WBL is right.

For my part, I'd break continuity and run Slaanesh and Nurgle Sorcerers, one level 4 and the other 2. Give the level 2 the Spell Familiar (and the Third Eye of Tzeentch to give his Life cheese right back). Give the level 4 the Puppet (and Conjoined Homunculus for key spells) to try to protect from miscasts and try to manipulate the LM player into bad situations, while hopefully limiting his power dice pool in the process.

-Cast RiP spells like Hysterical Frenzy, Titilating Delusions, Fleshy Abundance and Curse of the Leper to hopefully force the Big Toad to have to burn PD during his turn to dispel.
*Frenzy can be used to bait his units into bad/risky charges (from which you can flee) or give your Warriors/Chosen/Knights Frenzy with marginal risk (who needs MoKhorne?)
*Delusions can be used to isolate his units to deny BSB re-rolls, get them out of the Watchtower or just take them out of the fight if not dispelled.
*Warriors/Chosen/Knights with Regen AND Frenzy? Yes please!
*Reducing the S/T of Saurus and Temple Guard via Curse? Where do I sign? Follow up with Seizures for yucks!

-Hellshriek to potentially scare off those annoying Skink skirmishers with Poisoned shots

-Lash to deny him the ability to march. Especially useful for the aforementioned Skinks and Terradons.

-Lizardmen hate Cloying Quagmire and no one likes taking an Ecstatic Seizures or Rot, Glorious Rot in the piece.

Basically mess with his mind and his all important magic phase and hope for the best. It may not be Infernal Gateway or Pandaemonium, but it would be a thing of beauty if it works and best of all, he can't cry cheese.

frapermax
16-11-2010, 09:45
Another possible answer to the slann is using multiple units. It worked pretty well for my DE who have little magic defense. It forces his Slann to spread his magic buffs too thin and dwellers can only get half a small unit at a time.
Run a screen of Immune to panic stuff, followed by multiple Khorne hard hitters of 7 Warriors or 14 Marauders. Just make sure you hit first, which should only be a problem against a light slann. You will lose some units, but his saurus will melt away. It also has the upside of having more stuff to deal with the skinks and that is key if you run frenzy troops.
Having a lot of units to outdeploy and limit magic effects is a good way to give the slann some headaches.
just my 2 cents
fpm

Xzazzarai
16-11-2010, 10:53
Khorne Marauders with Great Weapon will dispatch of those saurus warriors - for half the preice, they can go toe to toe!

ROCKY
16-11-2010, 12:54
Khorne Marauders with Great Weapon will dispatch of those saurus warriors - for half the preice, they can go toe to toe!

i think flails would be better for one reason bro, that reason is that if u take gw the lizard men hit first, if fighting with spears that (assuming 6 wide) 25 S4 attacks, which would kill loads of marauders, however with flails you hit them first, so say go 7 wide: 22S5 attacks first. unless of course your taking 50-60 marauders.

N810
16-11-2010, 13:12
What if he takes the lore of metal instead...?

ROCKY
16-11-2010, 13:44
What if he takes the lore of metal instead...?

tbh the lore of metal on newer chaos armies are not going to do as much damage as you think, people dont use knights as much, and a chaos lord on a jugger WILL usually have the dragon gem/helm, so yeah not that useful. and lastly if he is taking no shields and marauder hordes, the lore of metal cannot hurt the marauders, and will only wound warriors on 4+. so yeah. the most dangerous slaans use shadow, life, and sometimes heaven or fire.

Hashulaman
17-11-2010, 01:05
[QUOTE=Enigmatik1;5122774]I think WBL is right.

For my part, I'd break continuity and run Slaanesh and Nurgle Sorcerers, one level 4 and the other 2. Give the level 2 the Spell Familiar (and the Third Eye of Tzeentch to give his Life cheese right back).
QUOTE]

There has been a discussion, Eye cannont use Lore of Life since it restores wounds and the RaW says you cannot use it for spells that bring back wounds of summon models. Apparently attributes count as spells now

Chapel
17-11-2010, 03:17
Practically a useless item now, because 9 out of 10 opponents will use the lore of Life. Most perturbatory...

Xzazzarai
17-11-2010, 10:27
i think flails would be better for one reason bro, that reason is that if u take gw the lizard men hit first, if fighting with spears that (assuming 6 wide) 25 S4 attacks, which would kill loads of marauders, however with flails you hit them first, so say go 7 wide: 22S5 attacks first. unless of course your taking 50-60 marauders.

If you take a block (or two... or three...) of marauders, they should be pretty big and thus able to take some hits back.

With the flails you strike first, but will only kill anything in the first round - and if you don't breake the saurus (which you won't) you'll be str 3 for the rest of the combat and get chopped to bits!
If you go for great wepons, you'll get chopped to bits every round as well - while doing the same thing to him at half the cost! Which Greatly increases the chance of keeping your frenzy.
2 str 5 in later rounds or 1 str 3... It's not a hard choice.

Great Weapons is the way to go, no doubt.

Trodger87
18-11-2010, 00:20
New FAQ out
Q: Can a model with the Third Eye of Tzeentch cast any spells from
the Lore of Life as the lore attribute allows him to recover Wounds
lost earlier in the battle? (p111)
A: Yes, apart from Regrowth. The lore attribute’s effect is not
part of the spell itself

No more discussions ;D So a useful item now especially against the toads

Hashulaman
18-11-2010, 08:46
Yes, I am glad I'm wrong, it doesnt say if you get the wound back from the attribute, the FAQ says the attribute is seperate from the spell and RaW for the 3rd eye say the spells that restore wound cannot be used.