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SolkaTruesilver
15-11-2010, 00:47
I know the Imperium uses cameleonide cloak, but do they own or fabricate stealthsuits that procure the same kind of invisibility than the Tau's scout stealthsuit Shadowsun is wearing?

Son of Sanguinius
15-11-2010, 01:23
I'm sure it's possible in isolated instances, but there hasn't been anything to suggest that the Imperium could manufacture such equipment on a large scale.

One pre-heresy example that comes to mind are the cloaking fields used by the Custodian Guard.

Col. Tartleton
15-11-2010, 01:36
Marines should have them in theory, but they opt out due to that old "Get to ze Choppa!" thing they have going on. The thing that means they can catch bullets in their teeth and flex their pecs and stop rpgs.

Shinzui
15-11-2010, 01:40
The probably don't have the STC or its so rare and hard to produce it wouldn't be widespread.

Cry of the Wind
15-11-2010, 03:40
I'm sure they have the tech but it is so costly/rare that you would never see it in something like 40k. Maybe in Inquisitor as the focus of a story arc but not something you'll see very often.

carldooley
15-11-2010, 03:56
the vindicaire has something similar.

Polaria
15-11-2010, 05:34
According to the FFG stuff the Imperials have stealthsuits which are essentially highly-advanced forms of synskins used by Imperial assassins. The big catch is that in order for them to work you have to wear them next to skin and with as little other stuff on top of them as possible... Thus they are no good for marine or anyone else who expects to get shot at or needs to carry more than pistol, a sniper rifle and a knife.

Iuris
15-11-2010, 06:43
But then FFG also knows rules for applying a cameleoline outer layer to any armor...

AndrewGPaul
15-11-2010, 07:35
The Vindicare stealth suit is a good bit more adnvaced than Cameleoline, though. At least, it was last time I read the Assassins background material.

Askil the Undecided
15-11-2010, 11:27
The vindicare suit is Synthskin just like all the temple assassins use. It's not a stealth suit, it's a sprayed on rapidly setting rubberlike substance that releases a stimulant drug cocktail and seals the body against the environment.

The Imperium dosen't reall spend all the much time with stealth as a general rule. They'd rather hit you really really hard in the face than sneak up and stab you quietly in the back.

Shamana
15-11-2010, 11:37
Well, it provides more bang for your buck, so to speak. Still, between the assassins, marines, inquisition and various commando units in the regular army the Imperium has quite a bit to stab you in the back with.

Novrain
15-11-2010, 12:03
Isn't there something from necromunda, I think it is the Malcadon Spyrer or the Yeld that has a camo suit / thingy?

AndrewGPaul
15-11-2010, 12:15
The vindicare suit is Synthskin just like all the temple assassins use. It's not a stealth suit, it's a sprayed on rapidly setting rubberlike substance that releases a stimulant drug cocktail and seals the body against the environment.

The synskin does that, yes, but don't Vindicare Assassins also have some sort of high-tech "ghillie suit" affair as well/part of that?

ashendant
15-11-2010, 12:37
What about scouts from dawn of war 2 they can stealth

biggreengribbly
15-11-2010, 12:54
What about scouts from dawn of war 2 they can stealth

Abstracted Game Mechanics =/= Setting Lore.

Scalebug
15-11-2010, 13:00
Isn't there something from necromunda, I think it is the Malcadon Spyrer or the Yeld that has a camo suit / thingy?

Then again, those suits are contraband xenos tech, covertly bought from the Tau... although appearently further modified by human technicians before they are put to use by the Necromundan nobles, as they incorporate technology the Tau don't have, like power weapon disruption fields and bolt weaponry.

Cohinor
15-11-2010, 13:02
Deathwatch Kill Teams as from FFGs Deathwatch RPG, do have Stealth Suits, as written they captured them from the Tau. But they seem to be a rare thing to be used by them.

Page 165 of the Core Rulebook - Masking Screen

In a long history oc clashes with the Velk´Han Sept of the Alien Tau forces, the Deathwatch have captured a limited number of their prized Stealth field generators. While unable to produce a perfect reproduction of the vile Alien tech they came up with a not quite as potnet similiar device. It combines light refraction with noise dampeners to hide the subject from most senses, even at close range.

biggreengribbly
15-11-2010, 13:14
Deathwatch Kill Teams as from FFGs Deathwatch RPG, do have Stealth Suits, as written they captured them from the Tau. But they seem to be a rare thing to be used by them.

Page 165 of the Core Rulebook - Masking Screen

In a long history oc clashes with the Velk´Han Sept of the Alien Tau forces, the Deathwatch have captured a limited number of their prized Stealth field generators. While unable to produce a perfect reproduction of the vile Alien tech they came up with a not quite as potnet similiar device. It combines light refraction with noise dampeners to hide the subject from most senses, even at close range.

That sounds like they have reverse engineered the devices to try to create a similar effect from Holy Omnissiah-approved Imperial Tech rather than simply ripping off chunks of Stealth-suits and bolting them onto Power armour. :shifty: why does it seem all the most inventive tech-priests work for the Ordo-Xenos?

SolkaTruesilver
15-11-2010, 13:37
That sounds like they have reverse engineered the devices to try to create a similar effect from Holy Omnissiah-approved Imperial Tech rather than simply ripping off chunks of Stealth-suits and bolting them onto Power armour. :shifty: why does it seem all the most inventive tech-priests work for the Ordo-Xenos?

HA! So the Imperium DO try to technologically leverage the Tau's innovation!

Askil the Undecided
15-11-2010, 13:48
Then again, those suits are contraband xenos tech, covertly bought from the Tau... although appearently further modified by human technicians before they are put to use by the Necromundan nobles, as they incorporate technology the Tau don't have, like power weapon disruption fields and bolt weaponry.

This is patently untrue. Spyrer suits have existed for longer than the Tau have walked upright.

MagosHereticus
15-11-2010, 13:58
This is patently untrue. Spyrer suits have existed for longer than the Tau have walked upright.

what makes you say that?

biggreengribbly
15-11-2010, 14:01
what makes you say that?

Because this is 40k and it seems the majority of the time in mainstream publications the Imperium doesn't use ANY Technology that isn't older than the Tau. :shifty:

MagosHereticus
15-11-2010, 14:03
I know the Imperium uses cameleonide cloak, but do they own or fabricate stealthsuits that procure the same kind of invisibility than the Tau's scout stealthsuit Shadowsun is wearing?

the imperium has psykers, they can shroud whole tanks



Because this is 40k and it seems the majority of the time in mainstream publications the Imperium doesn't use ANY Technology that isn't older than the Tau. :shifty:

with the exception of xeno-tech, bought or stolen from filthy xenos

SolkaTruesilver
15-11-2010, 14:05
the imperium has psykers, they can shroud whole tanks

If I had the choice between having to trust Tau technology or having to trust a Psyker, I'd go with the Tau technology.

No offense, Lyle. (http://www.servantsoftheimperium.com/comic/about.html)

MagosHereticus
15-11-2010, 14:09
If I had the choice between having to trust Tau technology or having to trust a Psyker, I'd go with the Tau technology.

No offense, Lyle. (http://www.servantsoftheimperium.com/comic/about.html)

what's wrong with opening a doorway to hell?

SolkaTruesilver
15-11-2010, 14:22
what's wrong with opening a doorway to hell?

I hate doorways. I prefer gateways.

Novrain
15-11-2010, 14:27
Originally Posted by Askil the Undecided View Post
This is patently untrue. Spyrer suits have existed for longer than the Tau have walked upright.

I think he means because Necromunda, and the spyrer fluff was written before Tau existed.

Coudl be worng tho, I'm not really up on 40k

AndrewGPaul
15-11-2010, 14:36
This is patently untrue. Spyrer suits have existed for longer than the Tau have walked upright.


How old is the Spyrer tradition, anyway? And for how long have they been using those power-armour rigs? I don't recall Outlanders or the Fanatic Magazine article mentioning that, but I might have missed it.

Lord Damocles
15-11-2010, 14:43
The only reference that I'm aware of to the age of Spyrer rigs is, '...their world revolves around an arcane and immensely powerful battle suit whose origins are shrouded in the mists of time.' (Death Stalks The Underhive, pg.18); although this is an in-universe section of text.


EDIT: Actual text concerning Tau-Spyrer connection:

'More difficult to enforce is when such technology finds its way into the hands of those in positions of authority or are difficult to trace. One example is the hunting rig of the so called 'Spyre Hunter' gangs found in the Necromunda Hive Complexes (CF: Ordo Xenos File 4353/Alien Technology/B). These aristocratic ne'er-do-wells wear armoured battlesuits said to be self sustaining, self repairing and fully capable of recording the wearer's every action. The implications of this last facility are truly horrifying. Does this information return to the Tau? Have these aliens been using these technological abominations to spy on our cities for all these years? It is imperative that these gangs be made to hand over their hunting rigs lest the Tau garner even more information concerning the Imperium.'
Codex: Tau (3rd ed.), pg.63

O'res - Powerful
Mal'caor - Spider analogue
Y'eldi - Winged One
Ja'kara - Mirror
Codex: Tau (3rd ed.), pg.67

biggreengribbly
15-11-2010, 15:23
The only reference that I'm aware of to the age of Spyrer rigs is, '...their world revolves around an arcane and immensely powerful battle suit whose origins are shrouded in the mists of time.' (Death Stalks The Underhive, pg.18); although this is an in-universe section of text.


EDIT: Actual text concerning Tau-Spyrer connection:

'More difficult to enforce is when such technology finds its way into the hands of those in positions of authority or are difficult to trace. One example is the hunting rig of the so called 'Spyre Hunter' gangs found in the Necromunda Hive Complexes (CF: Ordo Xenos File 4353/Alien Technology/B). These aristocratic ne'er-do-wells wear armoured battlesuits said to be self sustaining, self repairing and fully capable of recording the wearer's every action. The implications of this last facility are truly horrifying. Does this information return to the Tau? Have these aliens been using these technological abominations to spy on our cities for all these years? It is imperative that these gangs be made to hand over their hunting rigs lest the Tau garner even more information concerning the Imperium.'
Codex: Tau (3rd ed.), pg.63

O'res - Powerful
Mal'caor - Spider analogue
Y'eldi - Winged One
Ja'kara - Mirror
Codex: Tau (3rd ed.), pg.67

Has it ever been implied that Tau Battlesuits are 'Self sustaining' or 'Self repairing'? You'd think that wouldn't be the kind of technology they would incorporate into export product but not into their military equipment...

Polaria
15-11-2010, 15:26
That sounds like they have reverse engineered the devices to try to create a similar effect from Holy Omnissiah-approved Imperial Tech rather than simply ripping off chunks of Stealth-suits and bolting them onto Power armour. :shifty: why does it seem all the most inventive tech-priests work for the Ordo-Xenos?

I think its because even touching xeno-tech is so heretical that you need to have the support of the highest echelon of Adeptus Mechanicus or the inquisitorial "Emperors-permission-for-everything" to back you up in case anyone ever finds out...

Scalebug
15-11-2010, 15:52
This is patently untrue. Spyrer suits have existed for longer than the Tau have walked upright.
:rolleyes:
Ehh... this is one of those cases where the term retcon actually applies, as opposed from how often it is thrown around on forums by people not getting how to use it...

The Necromunda supplement that introduced Spyrers came out in 1996, and told us the suit came imported from off-world, and while the Tau did not exist in the background them, probably not even as a post-it note on some design white board, when they got their codex in 2001(or 2?), it was revealed that the spyrer suits was of their manfacture.


Has it ever been implied that Tau Battlesuits are 'Self sustaining' or 'Self repairing'? You'd think that wouldn't be the kind of technology they would incorporate into export product but not into their military equipment...

Yeah, this always grated at me as not really meshing... the Spyrer suits had a lot of funky nano-technology that is not really present in the rest of the Tau tech-level.

Although, possible explainations could be:

1) The Tau can make it, but it is not really economically viable to use it on an military scale, investments not justified by returns and such, for the number of battle suits you deploy in an army, but for a very limited number of luxury products the humans are willing to pay massively for (as well as the suspected spyware gathering info, although how that would work I don't know, given the Tau's lack of astro telepathy and in general slow warp travel, what whit the distance between Empire and Necromunda...), it is worthwhile.

2) Again, the distance between the Tau Empire and Necromunda suggests there will not be a direct trade, human, or other, smugglers act as middle hands, and possible the suits are further modified by Imperial or other Xenos heretechs before ending up on Necromunda.

Lord Damocles
15-11-2010, 15:56
Has it ever been implied that Tau Battlesuits are 'Self sustaining' or 'Self repairing'? You'd think that wouldn't be the kind of technology they would incorporate into export product but not into their military equipment...
I can't claim to be an expert on Tau background, but I've never (to my knowledge) read anything which gives Tau battlesuits self-repairing, or self-sustaining abilities. Nor do I recall Tau technology featuring, 'built-in power boosters which activate as the wearer gradually masters the suit’s functions. These power boosters make each Spyrer evolve in a subtly different way, creating a diverse and powerful group of individuals in each hunt.' (Death Stalks The Underhive, pg.1).

In addition, Tau stealth technology seems to work differently to that employed by Yeld rigs - while the Yeld uses 'pinions of chameleonic metal' which 'mimic the hues surrounding its body' (Death Stalks The Underhive, pg.10), Tau stealthsuits 'incorporate a holographic disruption field' (Codex: Tau (3rd ed.), pg.16).

In fact, much of the Spyrer rigs' weaponry/gear is conspicuous by its' absence in [known] Tau technology - eg. 'living' crystaline swords (Jakara), web spinners (Malcadon), microscopic 'builder' machines and defence globes (dormant Spyrers)


There is also a problem with Zachary Santiago's suggestion that information recorded by the rigs returns to the Tau (Codex: Tau (3rd ed.), pg.63) - if the Tau lack faster than light communications, and Necromunda is in the Segmentum Solar (5th ed. Rulebook, pg.116), surely they wouldn't recieve the recorded information for *counts on fingers* ...ages?


The Tau words matching up with the names of the Spyrers/rigs is interesting. But how do we know that the names of the suits were given by the Tau? Could the words have come into the Tau language from elsewhere - from the origin(s) of the suits perhaps?

SolkaTruesilver
15-11-2010, 15:59
So I think we can accept the idea that Tau technology, at least when it comes to invisibility fields, is easier to procure and produce than whatever the Imperium has come up with with it's STC?

And it's powerful. I am still pondering how an IG army would fare with Tau pulse guns, railguns, Stealthsuits and Crisis Suits.

biggreengribbly
15-11-2010, 16:37
So I think we can accept the idea that Tau technology, at least when it comes to invisibility fields, is easier to procure and produce than whatever the Imperium has come up with with it's STC?

And it's powerful. I am still pondering how an IG army would fare with Tau pulse guns, railguns, Stealthsuits and Crisis Suits.

I disagree, based on my limited knowledge of the circumstances underpinning the Deathwatch RPG, I think we can suggest that it is easier for the supporting Tech-priests of the Special Forces arm of an Imperial Force on Crusade to reverse engineer captured alien technology than to try and get the STC information on stealth mechanisms from any nearby Forgeworld, if they even happen to have access to said information, let alone be willing to share it.

This is in no way a reflection on the relative ease of acquisition or production of Tau technology compared to that of the Imperium in any broader sense, or even soley in the field of adaptive camoflage technologies and should be considered purely a reflection of the specific situation in Jericho Reach.

On a lighter note, aside from any issues of training, familiarity with the equipment, maintenance, logistics and whatnot, the only Imperial Guardsmen recorded to have attempted to try and use a Crisis suit was cooked alive as soon as he got in it :shifty:

SolkaTruesilver
15-11-2010, 17:06
On a lighter note, aside from any issues of training, familiarity with the equipment, maintenance, logistics and whatnot, the only Imperial Guardsmen recorded to have attempted to try and use a Crisis suit was cooked alive as soon as he got in it :shifty:

Any man trying to get into a Tau Crisis suit and died fried because of it deserves his fate.

After all, a Tau Crisis suit is designed specifically for Tau. You don't plug a Tau into a Power Armor either.

However, give a few Power Armors to the Earth Cast so they get to understand what's needed for a human power armor. Have them create a new brand of Crisis suit/Fire Warrior basic armor using some of the basic designs of the Power Armor.

Mass produce.

Equip.

Give Railguns to the HWT.

= Fun! :D

SgtTaters
15-11-2010, 18:26
If anything, it's more like Eldar technology...

Regerating crystal blades? Dark Eldar hydra gauntlets
web spinners? Death Spinners, Shredders, etc.
Wings that fly by vibration? Swooping Hawks

The tau connection was crudely done, like the "Necrons did it!" for everything bad to happen to Eldar


Have them create a new brand of Crisis suit/Fire Warrior basic armor using some of the basic designs of the Power Armor.
There's already the old style stealth suit. take off the expensive stealth generator and you have a 3+ sv jump jet infantryman

SolkaTruesilver
15-11-2010, 18:35
There's already the old style stealth suit. take off the expensive stealth generator and you have a 3+ sv jump jet infantryman

Give that to Stormtroopers, along with their hellfire rifles or a pulse rifle (which is better?), and you have some very interesting and mobile elite forces on the field.

Askil the Undecided
15-11-2010, 21:18
:rolleyes:
Ehh... this is one of those cases where the term retcon actually applies, as opposed from how often it is thrown around on forums by people not getting how to use it...

The Necromunda supplement that introduced Spyrers came out in 1996, and told us the suit came imported from off-world, and while the Tau did not exist in the background them, probably not even as a post-it note on some design white board, when they got their codex in 2001(or 2?), it was revealed that the spyrer suits was of their manfacture.

Yeah, this always grated at me as not really meshing... the Spyrer suits had a lot of funky nano-technology that is not really present in the rest of the Tau tech-level.

Although, possible explainations could be:

1) The Tau can make it, but it is not really economically viable to use it on an military scale, investments not justified by returns and such, for the number of battle suits you deploy in an army, but for a very limited number of luxury products the humans are willing to pay massively for (as well as the suspected spyware gathering info, although how that would work I don't know, given the Tau's lack of astro telepathy and in general slow warp travel, what whit the distance between Empire and Necromunda...), it is worthwhile.

2) Again, the distance between the Tau Empire and Necromunda suggests there will not be a direct trade, human, or other, smugglers act as middle hands, and possible the suits are further modified by Imperial or other Xenos heretechs before ending up on Necromunda.

You are aware that the in-universe source ot the Tau-syrer connection quote is a deranged Ordo Xenos inquisitor?

The problem remains the nobles of Necromunda have been spyrers (rigs and all) for longer than the five thousand years since the Tau mastered simple tools. How long do you think it takes for something to become a tradition in the Imperium?

The Tau are more than half a galaxy away from Necromunda, the Tau don't possess the technology to create the self-upgrading nanotech in the suits, also the Tau don't use comparable technology on their own troops and the suits in question are armed not only with weapons that are imperial and have no Tau version (bolt launchers & web spinners of example) but many are designed for aspects of combat the Tau are so loathe to attempt that they hire mecenaries to fulfil them.

Armours available to the scions of the Imperium can work protective wonders beyond the ken of even the mightiest Space Marines.

AndrewGPaul
15-11-2010, 21:28
You are aware that the in-universe source ot the Tau-syrer connection quote is a deranged Ordo Xenos inquisitor?

The problem remains the nobles of Necromunda have been spyrers (rigs and all) for longer than the five thousand years since the Tau mastered simple tools. How long do you think it takes for something to become a tradition in the Imperium?

Same time it takes for it now. A generation or two will do it.

You're right, the only connection is ... not conclusive (and the linguistic connections could go the opposite way), but there's still no actual evidence that the Spyrer rigs are that old an invention. Or that they're not, granted.

The Orange
15-11-2010, 22:00
designed for aspects of combat the Tau are so loathe to attempt that they hire mecenaries to fulfil them.


There's always the possibility that the Tau just provide the armor, not the weapons. Hate to pull a pop culture reference but similar to how in Ironman II Warmachine was up-gunned by the army (by bolting on a bunch of guns). Though I agree that it's unlikely that the Tau are the source of these suits, it's entirely possible that they've become another source of similar suits used by these Noble Gangs.

IvanTih
15-11-2010, 22:04
I'm not sure has anyone mention this as I haven't read the whole thread,but in the Deathwatch RPG they reverse engineer Tau personal cloaking device.
For the trivia in Kill Team they cloak five metre shuttle(Note:this is human not Tau technology).

Sir_Turalyon
15-11-2010, 22:06
The only reference that I'm aware of to the age of Spyrer rigs is, '...their world revolves around an arcane and immensely powerful battle suit whose origins are shrouded in the mists of time.' (Death Stalks The Underhive, pg.18); although this is an in-universe section of text.


EDIT: Actual text concerning Tau-Spyrer connection:

'More difficult to enforce is when such technology finds its way into the hands of those in positions of authority or are difficult to trace. One example is the hunting rig of the so called 'Spyre Hunter' gangs found in the Necromunda Hive Complexes (CF: Ordo Xenos File 4353/Alien Technology/B). These aristocratic ne'er-do-wells wear armoured battlesuits said to be self sustaining, self repairing and fully capable of recording the wearer's every action. The implications of this last facility are truly horrifying. Does this information return to the Tau? Have these aliens been using these technological abominations to spy on our cities for all these years? It is imperative that these gangs be made to hand over their hunting rigs lest the Tau garner even more information concerning the Imperium.'
Codex: Tau (3rd ed.), pg.63

O'res - Powerful
Mal'caor - Spider analogue
Y'eldi - Winged One
Ja'kara - Mirror
Codex: Tau (3rd ed.), pg.67


Which, given that Necromunda is located in Segmentum Solar, half the galaxy away from Easter Fringe and any influence of Tau, is patently absurd. The espionage part, given that Tau have no FTL communication other then messager crafts, and Tau FTL travel is painfully slow, makes it clearly work of ignorance and paranoia of some adept.

As of age of Spyrer tradition, it's likely to be as part as most of hive culture - older than Imperium, which is twice as old as Tau walking upright.

Askil the Undecided
15-11-2010, 22:27
Okay here's the skinny, Tau are a five thousand year old race that was isolated by a six thousand year warp storm after their discovery as a xeno breed just having mastered simple tools by a Mechanicus explorator group in M35.

Spyre hunters are likely older than 5000 years old seeing as how they are a tradition on a hive world older than the Imperium but failing this they are definately more than a thousand years old as the suits are described as ancient.

MagosHereticus
15-11-2010, 22:39
You are aware that the in-universe source ot the Tau-syrer connection quote is a deranged Ordo Xenos inquisitor?

The problem remains the nobles of Necromunda have been spyrers (rigs and all) for longer than the five thousand years since the Tau mastered simple tools. How long do you think it takes for something to become a tradition in the Imperium?

The Tau are more than half a galaxy away from Necromunda, the Tau don't possess the technology to create the self-upgrading nanotech in the suits, also the Tau don't use comparable technology on their own troops and the suits in question are armed not only with weapons that are imperial and have no Tau version (bolt launchers & web spinners of example) but many are designed for aspects of combat the Tau are so loathe to attempt that they hire mecenaries to fulfil them.

Armours available to the scions of the Imperium can work protective wonders beyond the ken of even the mightiest Space Marines.

were does this bit of information come from?

Askil the Undecided
16-11-2010, 00:11
The main focus was how long do you think it take for a tradition to form in the Imperium?

Answer: longer than the few hundred years the Tau worlds have been accessable.

Vikingkingq
16-11-2010, 01:17
In Malleus, Witchfinder Tantalid owns something called a mirror shield that allows him to hide himself as a "heat haze blur" that allows him to get the drop on Eisenhorn.

madd0ct0r
16-11-2010, 07:03
Given that Spyrer stuff cannot be Tau, but shares some strange links all the same.

Given that other technology in the Spyrer rigs seems rather more Eldar or Imperial

Given that the Spyrer's spying element is useless to a race without fast communications

Given the potential Eldar-Tau connections...

Could the Spyrer rigs be an Eldar plot to watch the Hive leaders?
Similar, simplified (de-physicked) technology may have been drip fed to the Tau to accelerate their ability to absorb threats to the Eldar?

Scalebug
16-11-2010, 10:08
Askil is letting peoples sycophancy over his supposed fluff knowledge awesomeness get to his head...

The spyrer suits are of Tau manufacture, it says so in black and white. Sure, the spyrer may well have been hunting people down hive for longer than than the Tau have been around, but they could have done so with other equipment before the last centuries they could have in contact with the Tau.

Put it down to someone getting an idea and thinking "wouldn't it be cool if we tied in this earlier information with the new race we are developing?", and not considering all factors in it.

A bit like the Kraken Leman Russ fished up out of the Fenris ocean nearly 10.000 years before the Tyranids entered the galaxy, which remained a grave bit of fluff logic until it was somewhat explained with "the Warp did it" in the lost hive fleets article.

Lord Damocles
16-11-2010, 10:15
The spyrer suits are of Tau manufacture...
According to an in-universe - and therefore fallible - source.

Scalebug
16-11-2010, 10:32
According to an in-universe - and therefore fallible - source.

It doesn't work that way...

There is an assumption that the reader is smart enough to see where the in-universe description is supposed to be "true" and not. A lot of forum goers fail that test. Both ways, I'm not pointing fingers, some people take the deliberately uncertain sources at face value, and some people think that "Oh, it is not certain, so that must mean that my own theory must be true!"

Askil the Undecided
16-11-2010, 12:39
A single source points to the tau in their codex, and over a decade of necromunda fluff points at a offworld manufacture for the suits, one of which features a weapon that the Tau (almost uniquely in the universe) have not understanding of, namely the bolter.

Not to mention that the soruce in question is an Inquisitor one of the only individuals paranoid enough to think similar words for advanced technology on two worlds separated by 70,000 LY is an alien conspiricy.

x-esiv-4c
16-11-2010, 12:46
I wouldn't be surprised if we saw marines with stealth capabilities in the next codex...Stealth-Marines if you will.

MagosHereticus
16-11-2010, 12:49
A single source points to the tau in their codex, and over a decade of necromunda fluff points at a offworld manufacture for the suits, one of which features a weapon that the Tau (almost uniquely in the universe) have not understanding of, namely the bolter.

Not to mention that the soruce in question is an Inquisitor one of the only individuals paranoid enough to think similar words for advanced technology on two worlds separated by 70,000 LY is an alien conspiricy.

in 40k everything is a fake moon landing or a grassy knoll

Askil the Undecided
16-11-2010, 12:59
No it isn't, most of it's just lazy writing leaving loose ends.

MagosHereticus
16-11-2010, 13:41
No it isn't, most of it's just lazy writing leaving loose ends.

have you forgotten about the enemy within? every stone has a chaos cult or genestealer cult festering underneath it, or an eldar ploy

at least the orks arent scheming

Lord Damocles
16-11-2010, 17:07
Just a note: Santiago isn't listed as being an Inquisitor. The report on page 63 of Codex: Tau (3rd ed.) gives the author's title as 'Genetor Secondus Zachary Santiago', which would make him a member of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

MEcorp
16-11-2010, 17:37
'...their world revolves around an arcane and immensely powerful battle suit whose origins are shrouded in the mists of time.' (Death Stalks The Underhive, pg.18); although this is an in-universe section of text.

Although its debatable how long it takes fro something to become a tradition I don't think anyone can seriously suggest that nobles (not the Imperium or Administratum) could forget where they got something only a few centuries ago. I mean noble families can often trace their families back to the Great Crusade (I believe the rulers of Necromunda are such a family though I may be mistaken).

It seems likely that there is some sort of connection between Spyder suits and the Tau empire. My personal suggestion would be that the Demiurg (or a similar race) invented them, sold them to humans on or near Necromunda than continued traveling, winding up in Tau space it time to influence certain Tau words. This is of course based on my understanding that the Demiurg are technologically advanced, nomadic and old, which could be mistaken.

Arbedark
16-11-2010, 17:55
RE the people saying that the Spyrer Suits cannot be Tau in Origin I have two-words for you:

Warp Storms

In a Universe where Traitors from the Heresy (10,000 years ago) are less than 1,000 years old, a little bit of time travel isn't too much of a stretch.

Tau develop FTL communications and incorporate more advanced technology such as Monomolecular Blades etc, develop these high-tech suits to "spy" on the Imperium, send them back in time via a Warp Storm so that when they DO develop FTL communications they pick up the transmissions from the suits and gather centuries of information that give them inside information from the middle of the Imperium, helping them in their mission "for the Greater Good".

SolkaTruesilver
16-11-2010, 17:58
Although its debatable how long it takes fro something to become a tradition I don't think anyone can seriously suggest that nobles (not the Imperium or Administratum) could forget where they got something only a few centuries ago. I mean noble families can often trace their families back to the Great Crusade (I believe the rulers of Necromunda are such a family though I may be mistaken).


Except, you know, if it's Xeno-techn. Then they'll do their every best to make sure they forget, and their descendant never remembers.

MagosHereticus
17-11-2010, 01:27
Except, you know, if it's Xeno-techn. Then they'll do their every best to make sure they forget, and their descendant never remembers.

this is the point i was going to make, knowledge can be lost in a single generation if it is not conserved and passed on, ask a kid (or engineering student) today what a slide rule is, you'll probably get a blank stare, in a single generation a crucial technology pre-electronics age has disappeared

biggreengribbly
17-11-2010, 02:52
this is the point i was going to make, knowledge can be lost in a single generation if it is not conserved and passed on, ask a kid (or engineering student) today what a slide rule is, you'll probably get a blank stare, in a single generation a crucial technology pre-electronics age has disappeared

Isn't the 'slide rule' "Never use on a sunny day while not wearing pants" :shifty:

Shards of Basalt
17-11-2010, 05:56
I wouldn't be surprised if we saw marines with stealth capabilities in the next codex...Stealth-Marines if you will.
With the battle cry of "Distroy All Evil?"

carldooley
17-11-2010, 18:36
RE the people saying that the Spyrer Suits cannot be Tau in Origin I have two-words for you:

Warp Storms

In a Universe where Traitors from the Heresy (10,000 years ago) are less than 1,000 years old, a little bit of time travel isn't too much of a stretch.

remember that even though the tau don't use warp travel for FTL, Rogue Traders do. it isn't beyond the ken to believe that RTs would purchase tau stealthsuits, go back in time and sell them to imperial noble houses.

x-esiv-4c
17-11-2010, 18:37
Shards of Basalt, no other warcry would do :]

SolkaTruesilver
17-11-2010, 18:52
remember that even though the tau don't use warp travel for FTL, Rogue Traders do. it isn't beyond the ken to believe that RTs would purchase tau stealthsuits, go back in time and sell them to imperial noble houses.

You could even speculate that the Tau technology these noble house own are actually Future Tau techs, more advanced versions of what they can produce. would explain the self-repairing and self-maintenance.

With a low manufacturing capacity like the Tau, make sense they want to make their stuff durable and reliable.

Brotheroracle
17-11-2010, 20:22
Magic did it.

SolkaTruesilver
17-11-2010, 20:35
Magic did it.

Is it that unlikely, in the W40K verse?

Son of Sanguinius
17-11-2010, 20:52
The Warp did it.

The Deceiver did it.

The Eldrad did it.

The Alpharius did it.

Take your pick. ;)

Arbedark
17-11-2010, 21:01
remember that even though the tau don't use warp travel for FTL, Rogue Traders do. it isn't beyond the ken to believe that RTs would purchase tau stealthsuits, go back in time and sell them to imperial noble houses.

Pretty much what I was trying to get at.

Or some Human / Alien Race indoctrinated into the Greater Good that DOES use Warp Travel is sent through the Warp to trade with Noble Houses in the Imperium etc etc.

Quite a good plot point IMO if it's done correctly. Could help account for the rather fast development rate of the Tau if they send things back in time to help them develop.

SolkaTruesilver
17-11-2010, 21:02
The Warp did it.

The Deceiver did it.

The Eldrad did it.

The Alpharius did it.

Take your pick. ;)

Pretty much! Seriously, there ain't an explanation that is too far-stretched for this 'verse.

(I am still trying to make a Men of Iron army, located deep within Neptune. They are all about 3-4 feet tall, wear green, and are led by a big, kinda-round leader wearing red and white.)

Sir_Turalyon
18-11-2010, 02:15
remember that even though the tau don't use warp travel for FTL, Rogue Traders do. it isn't beyond the ken to believe that RTs would purchase tau stealthsuits, go back in time and sell them to imperial noble houses.

Rogue Traders selling Tau stuff to Imperial nobles I have no problem with. Rogue Tradeers hauling said stuff all the way from Easten Fringe to Necromunda in Segmentum Solar - not so much. It's about the longest journey one can make through the galaxy; taking a year if done in single warp jump (according to Gav's Last Chancers books). There have to be better profits to be made in shorter range, or hive worlds in Eastern Fringe where the suits can be sold with the same profit. Given the proliftaton of the suits among the Spyrers, Rogue Traders would have to be making regular dedicated courses between Necromunda and Eastern Fringe with suits clogging their cargo holds - there is little profit in that.

madd0ct0r
18-11-2010, 03:57
Unless one trader is selling a few million suits to another, who sells a 100 and sells the rest on to another trader, moving ever closer to necromunda.

There's a limited market of idiotic nobels in each area after all, and for decent recon that Tau / others would want to cover as many hives as possible.

Tarian
18-11-2010, 04:23
... so the Tau, with no current knowledge of the warp, survive until a point where they can send a set of suits through a warp storm through *time*, knowing it will end up on Necromunda, just so they can gather information from the past, as they will develop FTL transmissions sometime between now and whenever the message gets back to halfway across the galaxy... Occam's Razor says, this theory is waaaaay too convoluted. Obviously, Eldrad tricked Creed into outflanking the suits onto Necromunda by the suggestion of the Alpha Legion, who were manipulated by the Sensei, who learned about the possibility from Russ while running around the Eye of Terror, who was tricked by the Deceiver that it was the Emperor who told him about the suits, while the Deceiver was being manipulated by Tzeentch, but Tzeentch was under duress because Marbo was "BEHIND HIM!"

or... the suits didn't come from the Tau.

FabricatorGeneralMike
18-11-2010, 04:47
This is patently untrue. Spyrer suits have existed for longer than the Tau have walked upright.

Thank you, I was going to say the same thing. :)

I would say they have been around longer then the Tau race period. There mightbe some kind of Xeno tech in there, but its not Tau.

Poseidal
18-11-2010, 09:03
One of my main problems is they employ technology not common with Tau forces (laser, monofilament) and have a compactness that the Tau aren't capable of (as they would give their own more advanced and better gear if they had it).

Tau battlesuits and stealthsuits, actually even Firewarrior armour is bulkier than the Spyrer suits.

From the sort of technology involved, it looks like Eldar and Human mixed engineered. Considering that humans were around during the Eldar height, it's likely that some of their own technology would be influenced by it and last through (so Las tech is based on a common Eldar tech).

I would more align the suits to pre-crusade technology made by human hands 'inspired' by alien (one of which is heavily Eldar) benefactors. Basically, the nobles of the time get the best tech they can from aliens (not limited to Eldar) and had the suits made for their own form.

Hellebore
18-11-2010, 09:51
Just a note: Santiago isn't listed as being an Inquisitor. The report on page 63 of Codex: Tau (3rd ed.) gives the author's title as 'Genetor Secondus Zachary Santiago', which would make him a member of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Which should indicate that he knows when a technology is imperial and when it isn't. He certainly believes it to be tau, giving it as an example of tau technology being used by imperial citizens in passing. The context is pretty unequivocable. The only argument against it is that he is wrong. Which would make a lot the whole article suspect.

The Ethereals appeared at the 'close of the 37th millennium'. The tau then expanded in the next 'thousand years'. So, by the time the tau were travelling through space it was the 'close' of the 38th millennium.

The Tau had been dealing with human settlements far before the Damocles Crusade started.

It's entirely possible that black market tau equipment was appearing in imperial space in the 39th millennium. Imperial nobles have a habit of collecting rare artifacts, their value often heightened by their illegality. Rogue Traders also trade with aliens beyond human space and keep quiet about it in order to turn more profit.

During these early times tau technology would have been very rare and so more valuable as a commodity.

So the spyrer hunting rigs could have been introduced to the Necromunda Nobility over 2000 years before the present time. Even 1000 years is plenty to produce a 'tradition'.

Although personally I prefer them to just be old DAoT that the nobility hordes for their own benefit, the circumstances and background are certainly in favour of them being Tau.

Hellebore

SolkaTruesilver
18-11-2010, 11:27
... so the Tau, with no current knowledge of the warp, survive until a point where they can send a set of suits through a warp storm through *time*, knowing it will end up on Necromunda, just so they can gather information from the past, as they will develop FTL transmissions sometime between now and whenever the message gets back to halfway across the galaxy...


No, that's way too complex theory.

Just that Tau in the future have developped hightechs surpassing what is today. They managed to trade it with Warp-capable specie. That specie accidently went back in time because of the Warp, and they ended up with high Tau tech that the Tau hadn't developped yet. They sold it to the highest bidder, went to take a tan 'til the end of their lives on Squatworld, and got eaten by the 'Nids.

There, is it that far-stretched? Nah. It's the Warp, there were no intent of Temporal-boosted tech development on the part of the Tau.

MagosHereticus
18-11-2010, 13:07
Thank you, I was going to say the same thing. :)

I would say they have been around longer then the Tau race period. There mightbe some kind of Xeno tech in there, but its not Tau.

either A, you're talking about retro active continuity, in which case you point is meaningless as we are all aware necromunda as a game has existed for longer than the tau have existed as a playable army, which is why the continuity has been backfilled thus making your point essentially meaningless

or B you are talking about in universe time, which we have explored as there being no definite dates attributed to the length of time the suits have existed for, meaning that no comparative chronology can be constructed

that is were we are up to in the discussion




So the spyrer hunting rigs could have been introduced to the Necromunda Nobility over 2000 years before the present time. Even 1000 years is plenty to produce a 'tradition'.

Hellebore

looking at real cultures and civilisations it takes mere decades for traditions to form

SgtTaters
18-11-2010, 21:46
They don't look Tau, they don't have anything Tau in them, In Universe they were created before the tau started walking upright, they were written before Tau existed.

but the 3e fluff says it's tau. I'd just say it's badly written fluff that brings little to making Necromunda, Spyrers, or the Tau more interesting.

It's a neat idea they should execute on a hive world and in a time period that would make sense... though it's really hard to make selling cutting edge technology (that your army doesn't even possess) to the enemy who wishes to see your race exterminated just so you can observe what rich kids do on weekends a good idea lol

But if they truly are of Tau origin, the Orrus was obviously made in homage to Marneus Calgar and his mighty Ultramarines, who the Fire Warriors now see as their Spiritual liege. Alas, though they may be blue in pigmentation, they will never be Ultramarines.

Triszin The Wrath God
18-11-2010, 22:38
i hope they either retcon the suits altogether or give them a more believable background.
for example; necron could have made them to watch how/when they become tasty. (self repairing armor sounds alot like living metal) hell it could've been them testing humans in preparation for the pariahs. or maybe an uber secert DAoT suit, that allowed the big E/ Terra to watch what the nobles do without them knowing.

Hellebore
19-11-2010, 00:51
They don't look Tau, they don't have anything Tau in them, In Universe they were created before the tau started walking upright, they were written before Tau existed.


There is no evidence that, inworld, they were created before the tau 'walked upright' (which would have been prior to M35). But yes they were written before tau existed.

As for not looking tau, of all the races in 40k the tau IMO are the most likely to want to build equipment to different design principles. It's not like they couldn't put skulls on a stick to make an imperial feel at home. If it helps integrate people into the greater good they'd build bondage gear with spikes and severed heads...



but the 3e fluff says it's tau. I'd just say it's badly written fluff that brings little to making Necromunda, Spyrers, or the Tau more interesting.


It's in the same vein although not magnitude of the c'tan being the Yngir from the Eldar War in Heaven. A sort of sideways retcon to insert some credibility into a new faction. Make it feel like it's been there for ages rather than only just appearing.




But if they truly are of Tau origin, the Orrus was obviously made in homage to Marneus Calgar and his mighty Ultramarines, who the Fire Warriors now see as their Spiritual liege. Alas, though they may be blue in pigmentation, they will never be Ultramarines.

Oh dear. Matt Ward really will never live this down will he?:p

The next crisis suits will come with 'blue fists' - special weapons that get +5 against Avatars...


Hellebore

Triszin The Wrath God
19-11-2010, 02:09
Oh dear. Matt Ward really will never live this down will he?:p

The next crisis suits will come with 'blue fists' - special weapons that get +5 against Avatars...


Hellebore

and his name will be commander Fars' murf!!

MagosHereticus
19-11-2010, 02:24
They don't look Tau, they don't have anything Tau in them, In Universe they were created before the tau started walking upright, they were written before Tau existed.

there is zero evidence for this, we dont even know when tau began walking upright let alone when spyrer rigs were created and you cant know if they have anything tau in them or not


but the 3e fluff says it's tau. I'd just say it's badly written fluff that brings little to making Necromunda, Spyrers, or the Tau more interesting.

It's a neat idea they should execute on a hive world and in a time period that would make sense... though it's really hard to make selling cutting edge technology (that your army doesn't even possess) to the enemy who wishes to see your race exterminated just so you can observe what rich kids do on weekends a good idea lol

But if they truly are of Tau origin, the Orrus was obviously made in homage to Marneus Calgar and his mighty Ultramarines, who the Fire Warriors now see as their Spiritual liege. Alas, though they may be blue in pigmentation, they will never be Ultramarines.

it doesnt matter whether you like a piece of fluff or not

Triszin The Wrath God
19-11-2010, 02:54
there is zero evidence for this, we dont even know when tau began walking upright let alone when spyrer rigs were created and you cant know if they have anything tau in them or not



it doesnt matter whether you like a piece of fluff or not

it was written before the actually existed. in reality not in game fluff.


in a real life time line spryer suits come before tau. then are later mentioned by a in universe narrative.

MagosHereticus
19-11-2010, 04:00
it was written before the actually existed. in reality not in game fluff.

which is irrelevant, it is called retroactive continuity, the origin of the spyrer suits were left ambiguous such that these sort of links could be explored in the future as the game development progressed (to me it looks like the design elements mimic eldar tech because at the time necromunda was written, eldar were the penultimate technologically advanced race)



in a real life time line spryer suits come before tau. then are later mentioned by a in universe narrative.

so? the fluff gets revised, deal with it

Triszin The Wrath God
19-11-2010, 23:08
miss read the previous post, lul.