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LAV-Kitsune-
16-11-2010, 20:41
Fear reduces opponents Ws to 1 and Transmutation of the lead lowers opponent Ws by 1. Does this combination result opponent with Ws0? Every other stat reducing debuff specifies that it reduces stats to minimum of 1, but Transmutation doesnt. Both effects are on different phases, but Transmutation lasts untill the next magic phase so it should work even in close combat and reduce Ws even further.

ColShaw
16-11-2010, 20:47
I would read this as being the same as having a -1 and a natural 6 needed; natural number is taken after all other modifiers. Thus, you'd apply the -1 and then reduce it to 1 from the Fear.

Chiungalla
16-11-2010, 20:52
No matter when the spell is cast, the fear takes effect later.
So the spell will reduce the WS from 2 to 1 (for example), and fear will not take it further down since fear brings it to 1.

There is no situation where the spell comes into effect while fear is active.

Bac5665
16-11-2010, 20:54
I would read this as being the same as having a -1 and a natural 6 needed; natural number is taken after all other modifiers. Thus, you'd apply the -1 and then reduce it to 1 from the Fear.

Well that's clearly wrong.

Think about order of operations.

Transmutation of Lead (ToL) must be cast before fear comes into play. So ToL gives you -1 WS. Then, after failing fear, you replace that WS value with 1.

So basically your question is completely impossible, unless I'm missing something, which is always possible (and if it were morning, would be almost a certainty. Glad I mostly stopped doing that...)

EDMM
16-11-2010, 21:04
Transmutation of Lead (ToL) must be cast before fear comes into play. So ToL gives you -1 WS. Then, after failing fear, you replace that WS value with 1.

So basically your question is completely impossible, unless I'm missing something, which is always possible (and if it were morning, would be almost a certainty. Glad I mostly stopped doing that...

What you have missed is that Transmutation of Lead lasts "until the start of the caster's next Magic phase."

So whatever value the target has, it is then reduced by -1 due to the spell. I think it's exactly the same as the Mark of Nurgle effect - and that's a kettle of worms.

decker_cky
16-11-2010, 21:10
Yet Augments and Hexes can't reduce stats below 1 or raise them over 10, so no, you're stuck at WS1.

Also...when you're WS1 and you're reduced to WS1, there's no change in WS so there isn't an additional -1 thrown on at the end.

Kevlar
16-11-2010, 21:12
Yet Augments and Hexes can't reduce stats below 1 or raise them over 10, so no, you're stuck at WS1.

Also...when you're WS1 and you're reduced to WS1, there's no change in WS so there isn't an additional -1 thrown on at the end.

What about gutter runner snare nets + fear? Auto hit goodness and no attacks back?

Lord_Elric
16-11-2010, 21:14
I agree with the above posters that spells effect happen the instant they are cast and last until they are stated with the order in which certain things are cast/happen is uneffected therefore fear reducing wepon skill to 1 happens after the spells effect has been applied regardless as to when it lasts as the effect is not reapplied in any way....

Hehe however word of pain is a different story hehehe

and the main problem with the Mon is "When" is its effect applied if it state model in base contact are at -1ws then they are already in base contact at start of combat "before" fear tests are taken...

I am with the crowd that says certain spells can reduce stats to 0 though many in the army books specificly state they can "all" of the other hex spells in the brb except a Couple have the limit "to a minimum of 1" so this has been purposefully left out of the particular spell effects for a reason...

decker_cky
16-11-2010, 21:15
No...Mark of Nurgle can. It's not a hex spell. Hex spells have a specific limitation on them.

Not sure on the snare nets. I'd have to look at them. You running gutter runners with snare nets and a fear causing assassin or something? :P

EDMM
16-11-2010, 21:16
The rule (if italicized things count as rules) on page 31 says "normally."

Does "normally" really belong in a rulebook without any sort of elaboration whatsoever?

All the other hexes specifically state that they reduce things to a minimum of 1, is that sufficient to count as "normally" and Transmutation of Lead counts as an exception?

Korraz
16-11-2010, 21:19
Yet Augments and Hexes can't reduce stats below 1 or raise them over 10, so no, you're stuck at WS1.

Also...when you're WS1 and you're reduced to WS1, there's no change in WS so there isn't an additional -1 thrown on at the end.

AFAIK, that's not quote correct. The spells that can't have it stated specifically in their entry.

Bac5665
16-11-2010, 21:20
What you have missed is that Transmutation of Lead lasts "until the start of the caster's next Magic phase."

So whatever value the target has, it is then reduced by -1 due to the spell. I think it's exactly the same as the Mark of Nurgle effect - and that's a kettle of worms.

Your argument makes no sense at all.

I'm saying the following the the sequence of events:

1. I have WS 3.

2. ToL is cast, making my WS 2.

3. In combat, I'm subject to fear and my WS becomes 1.

4. Combat ends, my WS goes back to 2.

5. Next Combat phase, WS goes to 1.

6. Combat ends, WS goes to 2.

7. Spell ends, WS goes to 3.

The fact that the scenario repeats doesn't change the fact that you never go to 0.

Now, the second, unrelated argument you sort of make might have merrit, at least if it weren't for Decker_City's post.

ALSO,

"normally" means "unless something specifically says otherwise." Yes, it's mostly redundant, except that it reminds you to keep an eye out for those exceptions.

Kevlar
16-11-2010, 21:27
No...Mark of Nurgle can. It's not a hex spell. Hex spells have a specific limitation on them.

Not sure on the snare nets. I'd have to look at them. You running gutter runners with snare nets and a fear causing assassin or something? :P

No assassin, waste of points. But I could charge them in to support the doomwheel or hell pit! Nets are free, but cut their melee attacks in half.

decker_cky
16-11-2010, 21:28
The rule (if italicized things count as rules) on page 31 says "normally."

Does "normally" really belong in a rulebook without any sort of elaboration whatsoever?

All the other hexes specifically state that they reduce things to a minimum of 1, is that sufficient to count as "normally" and Transmutation of Lead counts as an exception?

No. Normally would be the normal state, and would require specification for it to be otherwise (see Wither in the Skaven book for example).


AFAIK, that's not quote correct. The spells that can't have it stated specifically in their entry.

A few spells do. Can't think of any augments that have it. GW isn't consistent - surprise surprise.

One of the rules for spells is that they normally can't drop stats below 1 or raise them above 10. You need a stated exception to get around that.

edit: Ninja'd by Bac5665.

Bac5665
16-11-2010, 21:29
1. I have WS 3.

2. ToL is cast, making my WS 2.

3. In combat, I'm subject to fear and my WS becomes 1. 1-1 = 0 because the spell is still in effect

4. Combat ends, my WS goes back to 2.

5. Next Combat phase, WS goes to 1 from Fear, and 0 from the spell.

6. Combat ends, WS goes to 2.

7. Spell ends, WS goes to 3.

Right. Except for the qualification pointed out by Decker_City.

And the argument that the -1 is only gets applied once, with that application lasting until the spell ends, vs. what you argue where the spell gets re-applied whenever something else changes WS. Don't know which is correct, but as I've said Decker_City's comment makes that question irrelevant here.

EDIT: Wait, where did your post go?

LAV-Kitsune-
17-11-2010, 07:07
The thing that confuses me is that on p.31 it tells that normally hex cannot lower stat to 0, but every stat reducing spell also explains that minumum is 1, except ToL that just says its -1.

Another thing with ToL is that I think it (and all other stat boosters/reducers) as an permanent effect as long as spell is in play. So if some other source reduces it too it is still there. For example with fear, fear comes in effect and reduses Ws to 1, but ToL is still in effect and reduces it to 0. Fear doesnt replace ToL or ignore its -1Ws effect. On examples above fear just ignores whole -1 thing and claims that effect is over when we are on close combat phase and fear steps in. Spell description tells that effect lasts untill the start of casters next magic phase, and so effect wont dissapear with fear around.

Another example of same problem would be with spells. Miasma of pestilence reduces most stats to 1 and ToL would give -1 stat reduce. Both happen in magic phase so Ws should be effectively reduced to 0.

Chiungalla
17-11-2010, 07:22
The thing that confuses me is that on p.31 it tells that normally hex cannot lower stat to 0, but every stat reducing spell also explains that minumum is 1, except ToL that just says its -1.

And you conclude from that fact, that ToL would reduce it to 0?
There is a rule that says it does not do it, and you assume that it does, because it isn't spelled out again later (as it is by other spells)?
Thats an argument I can't agree with at all.

Lord_Elric
17-11-2010, 09:44
And you conclude from that fact, that ToL would reduce it to 0?
There is a rule that says it does not do it, and you assume that it does, because it isn't spelled out again later (as it is by other spells)?
Thats an argument I can't agree with at all.

Not just not spelled out by other spells but the fact it IS spelled out by EVERY other spell in the BRB

i donot agree thatall effect are applied together however there is a reason you have to choose which spells to cast and in what order effects dont stack randomly they stack in the order they are applied.....therefore ToL -1 would be rendered useless by fears ws=1

Korraz
17-11-2010, 10:36
One of the rules for spells is that they normally can't drop stats below 1 or raise them above 10. You need a stated exception to get around that.


Where is this stated? Neither the Nurgle-Spell, nur Wither has this stated. They just say what happens if one of the characteristics fall below 1. But if there indeed is a rule, that you need a specific exception...