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View Full Version : Black Orcs and choosing the right weapon.



Dribble Joy
17-11-2010, 09:28
I've been playing a few more games of fantasy now, and the value of Armed to Da Teef is seemingly becoming less and less, as is any point of buying my Black Orcs shields.

Against anything weak, there's little point going with a single choppa and shield (especially since a choppa is a special weapon and so you don't get a parry save with it), better to rely on the T4, fewer attacks and stepping up and go with twin choppas and gut their unit.

Against things like Chaos Knights I'm striking last, my save is rather pathetic even with a shield, why not simply go with twin choppas and try to kill as many as possible, it's the only way that I can see to get the combat res up.

Against cavalry, they'll ignore my armour regardless and why go with 1 attack at -3 save when you can go for 2 attacks at -2?

I hope I am wrong about this, I want to be, but from what I have experienced there seems little point in using anything but twin choppas unless in very special circumstances.

theorox
17-11-2010, 09:42
You do get a parry save, a choppa is a handweapon with the added effect of giving a str bonus in the first round of combat. Whenever the rules say "hand weapon" you can replace it with "choppa". :)

Also, GW's are always better than 2 choppas except against light infantry. GW's should always be the standard weaponchoice for BO's, except if you think the combat will only last one round.

Theo

Morkash
17-11-2010, 10:11
And if in doubt, kick out the Black Orcs and get another Mob of normal Boyz. Cost the half and are quite nice, too... In 8th edi I see them doing less every time I field them. One time they get chewed up by a Treeman, next time they get templated by some nasty pit/sun because they are so easy points...I came to the conclusion that I better field some more Boyz. A piy for the beautiful BO models, though...

sssk
17-11-2010, 11:22
One thing you have forgotten to take into account is that great weapons also give you plus 2 strength, so you are wounding things a lot easier. Against lightly armoured low toughness troops, 2 choppas is probably optimum. If you are using your unit as an anvil (with a chariot or trolls or something ready for a counter charge), it makes sense to use shields to limit casualties. Mostly, against toughness 4 and/or heavily armoured troops it's better to go with great weapons.

I have to say, I don't use orcs (I'm all about pure goblins), but whenever I play against them, black orcs rank up there with boar boys as my first target as they're so expensive and relatively easy to kill.

As Morkash suggested, I haven't seen a situation yet where a unit of black orcs is better than a unit of normal boys which is twice the size. That being said, they are cool models, so if in doubt, use them anyway (or mix them in with normal boys to make a unit of big uns), because cool units always win....

Djekar
17-11-2010, 11:58
First of all - I too have given up on shields. I'm a miser, what can I say? It really comes down to me being too stingy to find 25-30 points in my list, which is sad when I write it out like that.

Second, Great Weapons are better against anything that isn't incredibly weak and unarmored. The additional save modifier (which takes care of most infantry these days and still puts a nice dent in cavalry) as well as the ease of wounding is amazing. Dual choppas are great, but against heavily armored foes they have 3 problems: A) they don't have the same save modifier, B) They don't wound as easily and C) in subsequent rounds they get even worse. All for +1 Attack with the first rank? Not usually worth it in my mind.

With 8th being the edition of (mostly) prolonged combats, dual choppas often get left in the dust. And to be honest if your black orcs can beat an enemy with dual choppas, maybe da Boyz should have been handling it in the first place.

friendsofrhomb
17-11-2010, 13:16
I usually play against DE and WoC, so shields are usually taken, as the 4+ save against shooting makes sure most of the Boyz make it to combat alive to hack down those haughty elf bastards.

I often find that the duel choppas are sufficient to do the job against basic troops. Whilst choppas and shields are used to take down the more elite troops, such as chaos warriors.

I know GW would take them down faster, but I only field a small unit of Black orcs so I have to make sure I have enough troops to fight back with ( which means survivability is key ) Im only playing 750 point battles atm because my opponents dont have enough miniatures,

Malorian
17-11-2010, 14:40
I can see shields being used against a shooty army, but even then you are probably better off giving them the Waaagh! banner so you get into combat sooner and thus take less shots.

As for the weapon, it's been said already that most of the time the great weapon is best.

Rajhald
17-11-2010, 14:58
All my experiences have shown me that BO's are overpriced, and not near as effective as they should be. I have been taking units of double choppa boyz to mow through infantry, and letting my characters do the hacking through the tough stuff, and fanatics do it as well.

Drop the BO's and pick up more boyz...

Jadawin
17-11-2010, 15:09
I have found Borcs to perform slightly better in 8th than 7th, however I never take shields anymore as they are a waste of points. I currently run 21 blorcs + banner of butchery, set up 7 x 3. I always use AHW except against V heavy armour, the problem is that if you have a poor first combat round you are screwed but this set up should inflict about 10 wounds on most opponents in the first round and 6-7 if using gweapons. I have found this has given me the edge against DE black guard and WOC in recent games. Without the banner of butchery blorcs are a waste of points as they will statistically come out second best against most infantry of similar cost.

Malorian
17-11-2010, 16:06
All my experiences have shown me that BO's are overpriced, and not near as effective as they should be. I have been taking units of double choppa boyz to mow through infantry, and letting my characters do the hacking through the tough stuff, and fanatics do it as well.

Drop the BO's and pick up more boyz...

That's 7th ed thinking.

In 8th you need the elite as kills rules all.

If you need more to convince you then check out my latest battle reports where I used a horde of black orcs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nivtXffxWj0), or just do the math.

On my side I have a horde of 40 black orcs (520 points), now go ahead and feel free to take the same amount of points in orcs. Now math it up where my black orcs have great weapons. I can promice you that the black orcs will win. (In fact you'll also find that after the first round that the regular orcs are just pathetic...)

snottlebocket
17-11-2010, 20:26
First of all - I too have given up on shields. I'm a miser, what can I say? It really comes down to me being too stingy to find 25-30 points in my list, which is sad when I write it out like that.


The hand weapon / shield ward saves 1 in 6. On a regiment of 40 orcs the cost of said shields would buy you about 6 extra orcs depending on what you equip them with.

Buying more orcs is a certainty. Hoping to make those wards against 1 in 6 odds is a desperate gamble. Someone would have to be massacring your orcs en masse before the ward starts saving noticeable amounts of orcs. By that time I doubt it'll make a difference.

Wyrmnax
17-11-2010, 20:36
Dual Choppas are better against T3 5+ or worse - Light infantary. S5 is enough to wound on 2+ and give them no save.

GWs are better against anything that is tougher or more armored than that. The possible exception is if the enemy is T3 and 4+, but anything better than that is definitely the place to use GWs.

Malorian
17-11-2010, 20:54
Dual Choppas are better against T3 5+ or worse - Light infantary. S5 is enough to wound on 2+ and give them no save.

GWs are better against anything that is tougher or more armored than that. The possible exception is if the enemy is T3 and 4+, but anything better than that is definitely the place to use GWs.

It's not just about the unit type, it's also about how long you expect the combat to last.

Even against T3 with 5+ save you might want to go with great weapons if you expect several rounds of combat.

In a horde formation great weapons would kill 12.5 (if they had WS4) while the str 4 double choppas would only kill 11.1.


On the flip side you might go to douple choppa if you are looking to strike first, and do serious damage to, a unit with a great weapon (like against a unit of 3 minotaurs with great weapons).

Ghremdal
17-11-2010, 22:40
I found the BO's to be quite useful with a Banner of Eternal flame, as a very killy unit that deals with specialized threats. I also try to get them in combat as quick as I can to give them protection from shooting, and your own Greenskin magic defense provides more then enough protection against magic.

Harwammer
17-11-2010, 23:26
Use great weapons. If you realise dual choppas woulda been better as you need attacks rather than strength then simply activate your contingency plan (nogg's banner). IMO there are very few situations where GWs will be that much worse (if at all) than dual choppas, such as the one mentioned by Malorian.

I don't like risking getting bogged down on light troops, using up the +1S from choppa, then having some heavy troops join combat with my black orcs being stuck at str 4.

Ghazbad_Facestompa
18-11-2010, 00:45
I never use shields in combat. They're there solely to take off some shooting casualties. I use GWs against anything tough and/or that has a good armor save and two choppas against anything else. Black orcs have become awesome again.

Torgash
19-11-2010, 04:24
Hm. Good things to think about. Thanks.