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Lukasz_VT
18-11-2010, 12:04
Hi all, I'm a recent 40k convert and am still getting my head around the WHFB rules. I am collecting ogres and have some questions regarding outfitting characters with mundane weapons, i.e. the ogre club (standard), ironfist, cathayan longsword and brace of handguns.

The rules for the ogre club state it is a hand weapon, yet is armour piercing. Just to clarify, does this mean that ogres who purchase an additional handweapon get the extra attack yet also retain armour piercing?

If so, is this also the case when using the ironfist as an extra hand weapon?

Also, the rulebook says that a brace of pistols confer an extra attack in the same way as an additional hand weapon, but does this work for a brace of handguns (which used to have the pistol rule, prior to the latest FAQ)?

I was hoping to be able to use a cathayan longsword (one handed weapon) in conjunction with an additional hand weapon for an extra attack, but with the special profile of the longsword. The rulebook says that you do not get an extra attack with special weapons such as the halberd, but that is a two-handed weapon. Am I out of luck? If not, I assume this works with the ogre club, which is the ogre version of a hand weapon, though I'd have to state which I was using (a no brainer, given the longsword is also armour piercing).

Hope someone can clear the mess up for me :D

Iron Hand Gotz
18-11-2010, 17:18
Hi Lukas,
I think the answers of all of those questions can be found in the rulebook and the FAQ.

Ogre clubs specifically state that they lose their armour piercing ability when used in conjuction with an additional hand weapon or an ironfist, so it's only vanilla bulls that hold onto that gem.

As for the others, I believe that a cathayan longsword is a special weapon, and cannot be combined with a handweapon to gain an attack (as that is only available to two HAND weapons), though you could use the ironfist as a shield for +1 armour (but no parry).

As for the brace of handguns, I think they got revamped in the FAQ, but it's something like S4 armour piercing, quick to fire, and they give an extra attack in combat.

Personally, when I'm too cheap for magic weapons I like running my tyrant with a cathayan longsword and the enchanted shield, since our armour is pretty bad (and ench shield is actually cheaper for a tyrant than an ironfist)

Torpedo Vegas
18-11-2010, 17:31
I don't consider a Cathayan Longsword a special weapon, but more of an upgrade, like a Clanrat taking a spear. I don't think it has been FAQd but if is has then go with that.

stripsteak
18-11-2010, 17:48
I don't consider a Cathayan Longsword a special weapon, but more of an upgrade, like a Clanrat taking a spear. I don't think it has been FAQd but if is has then go with that.

clanrat with a spear is a special weapon...a special weapon is anything that isn't a hand weapon.

Lukasz_VT
18-11-2010, 21:41
Okey dokey, thanks for clearing that up!

Lord_Elric
18-11-2010, 21:44
An additional hand weapon/ Two hand weapons is a special weapon in its own right now so cannot be used in conjunction with any other special weapon (aka you only get one special rule from the weapons your wielding at a time) unless otherwise specified in the weapons entry....

havoc626
18-11-2010, 21:44
If the rules for the Cathayan Longsword doesn't list 'Hand weapon' (or makes an equivalent statement) then it can't be used for parry or +1 attack.

Not sure on what the Sword says, but that's usually how it works with weapons.

Torpedo Vegas
18-11-2010, 21:54
clanrat with a spear is a special weapon...a special weapon is anything that isn't a hand weapon.
Thanks for clearing it up, I'll be in the corner eating my ass.

Clevelander
19-11-2010, 01:08
Also, you cannot take a cathayan longsword and an ironfist. For any model that can take them its "either... or". The only way to give an ogre any special weapon and shield is by taking a magic shield. Since it only costs 5 pts, the enchanted shield is a good candidate.

You can take the brace of handguns in addition to the AHW or IF or CLS or GW or ogre club. In CC, you pick which one to use.

Synnister
19-11-2010, 02:26
An additional hand weapon/ Two hand weapons is a special weapon in its own right now so cannot be used in conjunction with any other special weapon (aka you only get one special rule from the weapons your wielding at a time) unless otherwise specified in the weapons entry....

According to this statement, if you buy an additional choppa for your boyz you'd not be able to get the +1 str and the additional attack. I'm gonna call shenanigans on that for the moment since I'm at work without my books to fully investigate this statement. You sir, are on notice. To be continued.

IrishDelinquent
19-11-2010, 03:59
Synnister, Choppas are specifically noted as hand weapons in all respects. Think of them kind of like the Chaos Knights Ensorcelled weapons; they're hand weapons with an additional bonus. So, you can take 2 choppas or choppa + shield and get the bonus as if it were a hand weapon...you just also gain +1S in the first round of combat.

As for the Ogre Club, it's also listed as a straight-up hand weapon. If it weren't for the specific rules mentioning that the weapon doesn't work with shield or other weapon, it would function the same as a Choppa. As for the Cathayan Longsword, it is listed as a one-handed weapon, and it would best be described as a special weapon.

Lord_Elric
19-11-2010, 10:07
According to this statement, if you buy an additional choppa for your boyz you'd not be able to get the +1 str and the additional attack. I'm gonna call shenanigans on that for the moment since I'm at work without my books to fully investigate this statement. You sir, are on notice. To be continued.

hmmm i guess that kinda is true tho id say the choppa isnt a special weapon its a special rule for ork hand weapons so haveing 2 handweapons would still apply the orcs special rule thats how id play it anyway dunno if anyone else would require a more RAW conclusion or not but as 2 hand weapons/additional hand weapon is listed under special weapons now with the require 2 hands and extra attack special rules RAW might state your not using your choppa anymore your using a special weapon...I personaly wouldnt play it that way but some might

Iron Hand Gotz
19-11-2010, 10:15
Also, you cannot take a cathayan longsword and an ironfist. For any model that can take them its "either... or". The only way to give an ogre any special weapon and shield is by taking a magic shield. Since it only costs 5 pts, the enchanted shield is a good candidate.


Well I'll be, that saves me 12 points on my tyrant. I agree the enchanted shield is fantastic, specially now that I see this whole 'no shield' thing (I just started ogres this year, so I suppose I, too am learning the ropes).

theunwantedbeing
19-11-2010, 10:18
Special weapons are anything that isnt a hand weapon.
Page 88, Rulebook

A choppa is a hand weapon, as it says it is.
Page 18, Orc&Goblin Book

Lord_Elric
19-11-2010, 11:19
Special weapons are anything that isnt a hand weapon.
Page 88, Rulebook

A choppa is a hand weapon, as it says it is.
Page 18, Orc&Goblin Book

and yet BRB states that 2 hand weapons/additional hand weapon is a special meaning you have to use the special weapon and not your hand weapon ,,,

as i said i wouldnt play it like that cus you kno your using 2 choppas basicly but other might disagree and go full RAW

Avian
19-11-2010, 11:31
and yet BRB states that 2 hand weapons/additional hand weapon is a special meaning you have to use the special weapon and not your hand weapon ,,,
:eyebrows:
Dude, you ARE using your special weapon, though you are still getting +1 S because that's what the rules for choppas say.

theunwantedbeing
19-11-2010, 11:31
and yet BRB states that 2 hand weapons/additional hand weapon is a special meaning you have to use the special weapon and not your hand weapon

Erm, it just means if you have 2 hand weapons, you have to use them together, rather than only 1 with say...a sheild or nothing at all.

Lord_Elric
19-11-2010, 17:07
:eyebrows:
Dude, you ARE using your special weapon, though you are still getting +1 S because that's what the rules for choppas say.

i know that is exactly how we play it though i have come up against players that play other wise and the BRB does rule 2hand weapons under special weapons on page 91 note that it has its own profile at the bottom of the page and is therefore a special weapon in its own right and no longer counts as a hand weapon...

i know its quite stupid and we dont play it like that but that does not make it anyless RAW

Korraz
19-11-2010, 18:24
Don't play against those players. Don't try to argue. It is very dangerous to argue with the mentally insane.

Lord_Elric
19-11-2010, 21:01
Don't play against those players. Don't try to argue. It is very dangerous to argue with the mentally insane.

yup because theyll just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience lol