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ForgottenLore
18-11-2010, 21:13
What chapters are known to not follow the Codex Astartes standard organizational pattern?

Space Wolves, obviously, but what other ones do we know about and how do they differ?

Aiwass
18-11-2010, 21:18
Black Templars & Iron Hands.

Xisor
18-11-2010, 21:27
Salamanders. They have seven companies of twelve 'codex' squads. There's a few other details of distinction for the Salamanders (the presence of the Forgefather, for example), but they're generally one of the high profile non-codex organisations. Even then, they're still pretty heavily codex.

More impressively than the Salamanders are the Black Templars who, like the Wolves, basically throw the Codex out the window. The Legion split, but the Templars still act and behave just like the Legion did, albeit smaller and more focussed: e.g. they're the angry/fighty leftover of the Imperial Fists Legion, ten-thousand years later.

And then there's the Iron Hands and Raven Guard. One is so insular we don't really have insight into how codex/non-codex they are, but that they heavily diverge in terms of their use of dreadnoughts as senior figures in the Chapter. With the Raven Guard, they appear to be less of a 'non-Codex' chapter and more of a post-Codex chapter. E.g. they have taken on everything from the codex and advanced far beyond it, but I could be quite wrong there.

The Dark Angels (excepting Ravenwing), the Blood Angels (excepting the Death Company), the White Scars and the Imperial Fists all appear to be quite thoroughly codex. So too with the bulk of successor chapters; very few are really non-Codex like the Space Wolves or the Black Templars.

(In Warriors of Ultramar the Ultramarines work alongside their successors the Mortificators, the characters are massively shocked at their behaviour but even then there's still not that much in the way of divergence from codex tactical things, well, not on-record.)

Col. Tartleton
18-11-2010, 22:12
It appears that most chapter at least organizationally resemble the codex. Their doctrinal following of the work varies in mileage. The Codex is a high end and expansive treatise on warfare and organization. Even chapters which don't follow it religiously may at least glean insight from it in the case of the majority or simply come to similar conclusions.

The Codex works very well. It basically allows a thousand warriors to exert their dominance across the vastness of space. Its a guide to force multiplication on a godlike scale.

MEcorp
18-11-2010, 22:14
I think White Scars are actually fairly divergent from the Codex (despite the fact that there in it). Armies of bikers and a limited amount of heavy support, organized around Khan's whose companies, IIRC, are smaller than the Codex would suggest. It seems fairly non-standard, at least as much as the Blood Angels. To me its just another argument in favour of one-codex-to-rule-them-all.

ForgottenLore
18-11-2010, 22:23
It appears that most chapter at least organizationally resemble the codex.

That's kinda why I asked. The IA:9 The Badab War goes into detail on, like, 9 chapters and each one has a section on their organization. I thought, "Great, I can see how some non-codex chapters structure things, neat." then all the chapters in there seemed to vary between: "Basically follow the codex with maybe some minor tweaks barely worth mentioning" to "Religiously follow the codex with no variation whatsoever"

Kinda disappointing. So I wondered what chapters did actually diverge from the basic pattern and by how much. Couldn't find anything on Lexicanum though because I didn't know what to search on.

destroyerlord
18-11-2010, 23:30
It seems fairly non-standard, at least as much as the Blood Angels.
The only divergence the Blood Angels have from the Codex is their 'Death Company', an 11th company created in order to manage the flaw. The other 10 companies and chapter organization, along their tactics and rules of engagement have always been strictly codex.

Toadius80
18-11-2010, 23:43
I'd advise having a read of the blood angel codex. There actually pretty divergent. I'm not going to post why they are, that would be too long, just read the codex :)

HK-47
18-11-2010, 23:49
The only divergence the Blood Angels have from the Codex is their 'Death Company', an 11th company created in order to manage the flaw. The other 10 companies and chapter organization, along their tactics and rules of engagement have always been strictly codex.

Doesn’t the Sanguinary Guard also count as a non-codex organization?

Aiwass
18-11-2010, 23:50
I've read the C:BA many times, and they still pretty much codex adherent. Basic organization is the same, with just a few divergences. The only reason they have their own codex is that GW wants more money, but they fit with a few sidenotes in codex ultramarines.

edit



Doesn’t the Sanguinary Guard also count as a non-codex organization?

No. SG are the guardians of the tower, they are not in any company. Also, minor divergences like 2 or 3 different units does not make a non-chapter codex since they follow the codex organization.

HK-47
19-11-2010, 00:00
No. SG are the guardians of the tower, they are not in any company. Also, minor divergences like 2 or 3 different units does not make a non-chapter codex since they follow the codex organization.

Thanks, I don't have the codex so I didn't know.

AlphariusOmegon20
19-11-2010, 02:04
Salamanders. They have seven companies of twelve 'codex' squads. There's a few other details of distinction for the Salamanders (the presence of the Forgefather, for example), but they're generally one of the high profile non-codex organisations. Even then, they're still pretty heavily codex.



Not even. They are quite highly codex divergent.

The 7th Company is a scout company, much the same as the 10th company would be in in a Codex Chapter. The difference is The Sallie 7th Company is a Reinforced Scout Company, holding 120 scouts instead of the normal 100.

Also, you're forgetting that Salamanders do not rely a lot on Assault tech, meaning they do not have a great number of land speeders, bikes, Jump packs and the like. (meaning very few Vanguard and such.)

Most Codex chapters also have line companies of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th companies, with the 6th through 9th being reinforced reserve companies. Sallies don't. Their line companies are the 2nd, 3rd and 4th companies. The 5th is a reinforced reserve Tac company, and the 6th is a reinforced reserve Dev company. They don't have a reinforced reserve Assault company like most other Chapters do.

Immortal Avatar
19-11-2010, 02:45
The only Chapter I know of that was not mentioned was the Exorcists chapter. They maintain two additional scout companies due to the fact that they tourture the **** out of their recruits to the point where many die so that they will be suitable to fight alongside the Inquisition and the Grey Knights.
Oh and each recruit has to survive a deamonic possesion to be allowed to join the chapter.
Other that that I don't know much about them.

narrativium
19-11-2010, 09:41
The Dark Angels, naturally. Deathwing, Ravenwing.

I'm presently under the impression that the White Scars actually are Codex, except for an inclination towards bikes. They're still a ten company ten squad ten men chapter with the Terminator/4 Battle/2 Tactical/Assault/Devastator/Scout system.

abasio
19-11-2010, 10:31
I would say the Dark Angels too but not because they have the Ravenwing & Deathewing, but because they and their successor chapters seem a little too close and the Grand Master of the DA has a lot of influence over them. Who knows how many chapters are actually part of the Unforgiven. We know what, 10 at most? But then we know hardly any of the 1000 chapters so there could easily be upto 30 or more putting the Unforgiven at pretty much legion strength: pretty divergent.

the_yuk
19-11-2010, 11:26
I'll agree with the Dark Angels being non codex. Isnt it hinted somewhere in the codex that the capter master was selected from one of the sucessor chapters anyway, i swear i read that somewhere. My DA armie runs on the premise of a fallen strike force operating outside the chapter so no squad or company markings except there DA symbols. The space borne chapters especially would have an easy time hiding a few hundred extra marines in different sectors aboard ships etc.

AndrewGPaul
19-11-2010, 12:55
There's quite a spectrum of "non-Codex", from the Blood Angels (who try, but the Death Company are a reaction to unique circumstances - something which I'm sure the Codex allows, even encourages) and Dark Angels (who really only have one non-Codex formation, the Ravenwing) to the Space Wolves and Grey Knights, who basically do as they like.

Polaria
19-11-2010, 13:02
According to C:SM the term "codex chapters" comes more from publicly stating that you respect and try to uphold the Codex Astartes... For example if you look at Raven Guards and Blood Angels the main reason why RG is a codex chapter and BA isn't seems to be that Angels have publicly said they don't give a **** about codex :P

At least in organization, heraldry and tactics Raven Guards are as much "non-codex" as Blood Angels, but still C:SM says Raven Guards are codex-chapter... Strange, ain't it?

Sometimes I think the whole codex-chapter is something GW uses to discuss about chapters which haven't (yet) gotten their own codex :P

AndrewGPaul
19-11-2010, 13:09
At least in organization, heraldry and tactics Raven Guards are as much "non-codex" as Blood Angels, but still C:SM says Raven Guards are codex-chapter... Strange, ain't it?

What's non-Codex about the Raven Guard's organisation? IIRC, they use the standard "ten companies of ten squads of ten men". They may not use the standard symbology as used by the Ultramarines, but the Codex is more flexible than that when it comes to identification marks, anyway.

Leftenant Gashrog
19-11-2010, 13:14
The difference is The Sallie 7th Company is a Reinforced Scout Company, holding 120 scouts instead of the normal 100.


Not according to the Salamanders IA article. Companies 1-6 were larger but company 7 was only 60 men.


Doesn’t the Sanguinary Guard also count as a non-codex organization?

Not really, they are just Codex Honour Guard by another name (BA Honour Guard being Codex Command squad by another name)

Even the Death Company isn't that non-Codex, the marine implantation process is not without risks - when it goes wrong the implantee will usually wind up either as vegetables or as raving psychotic. The use of the latter as suicide assault squads has been a matter of canon for years.

The BA's greatest deviance was the use of Veteran Assault squads whilst Codex chapters fielded Veteran squads as Tacticals, but thats been blown out of the water by the invention of Vanguard assault squads.

The Dark Angels level of deviance is debatable. The only outright deviance is the Ravenwing. Lesser deviances are: do companies 3-8 have bikes and/or speeders (something GW can't make their mind up about) and does the Deathwing truly never deploy in Power Armour.

The Raven Guard have only ever been non-Codex in regards to Tactics - they favour drop pod assaults and stealth even when the Codex would advise other methods - but they have never been divergent in regards to organisation.

Zweischneid
19-11-2010, 13:16
That's kinda why I asked. The IA:9 The Badab War goes into detail on, like, 9 chapters and each one has a section on their organization. I thought, "Great, I can see how some non-codex chapters structure things, neat." then all the chapters in there seemed to vary between: "Basically follow the codex with maybe some minor tweaks barely worth mentioning" to "Religiously follow the codex with no variation whatsoever"

Kinda disappointing. So I wondered what chapters did actually diverge from the basic pattern and by how much. Couldn't find anything on Lexicanum though because I didn't know what to search on.

Hmm. I think that part of this phenomenon can be explained by the chronology of the unfolding Badab War itself that, in a nutshell, went a bit like this:

(a) Huron goes rogue.
(b) Imperium sends in the by-the-book Marines (and Fire Hawks in there as a causus belli in a way)
(c) Conflict drags on, some chapters are ordered to stand down.
(d) Imperium sends in the nutters & strange guys (Minotaurs, Sharks, Exorcists, etc...; ) ---> IA10

A second reason why you likely wont find too many non-Codex chapters in IA books is the simple reason that FW will hook their rules in the GW-Codexes; in the case of Space Marines the C:SM more often than not.

Finally, all said and done, IA9 gives you a decidedly non-Codex Marine list with the Tyrants Legion.

Dalros
19-11-2010, 13:29
Well from my point of veiw there are actually three distinctions:
Codex: Ultramarines are an example of this
Near-codex: DA and BA
and Non-codex: Black templars and SW

Gimp
19-11-2010, 14:06
Iron Hands are different on many levels from normal Chapters.

1) Iron Hands dont have Battle Companies. Instead they have Clans. However each Clan has its own Fortress Monastery and is responisable for its its own recruiting and resources.

2) Iron Hands dont have a Chapter Master. Instead the role is fulled by the Great Clan Council which is made up of representitives of the Clans.

3) Iron Hands and no Chaplains or Techmarines but Iron-Fathers which full a simular role.

AlphariusOmegon20
19-11-2010, 16:20
The Dark Angels, naturally. Deathwing, Ravenwing.

I'm presently under the impression that the White Scars actually are Codex, except for an inclination towards bikes. They're still a ten company ten squad ten men chapter with the Terminator/4 Battle/2 Tactical/Assault/Devastator/Scout system.

Ravenwing is a non codex company. Deathwing is still a somewhat Codex idea, as every chapter's termies are in 1st co. anyways.



Not according to the Salamanders IA article. Companies 1-6 were larger but company 7 was only 60 men.





The math don't add if you follow that, and GW is notorious for screwing up their own fluff.


You can't get to 1000 marines unless the scout company is 120. I've tried and done the math before, even double checked it several times. The Scout company has to be 120 for the math to work.

Polaria
19-11-2010, 17:21
What's non-Codex about the Raven Guard's organisation? IIRC, they use the standard "ten companies of ten squads of ten men". They may not use the standard symbology as used by the Ultramarines, but the Codex is more flexible than that when it comes to identification marks, anyway.

Well, Blood Angels also use standard "ten companies if ten squads of ten men", but they have their Death Companies. Raven Guard has things like Shrike Wing which is a group of veterans integral to 3rd company (even though all vets should, by codex, be in 1st). Also, the very Codex: Space Marines says that the independent, self-sustained nature of Raven Guard companies is viewed with suspicion by many others. I think that is also organizational point.

Hedgehobbit
19-11-2010, 17:45
This is a bit off topic, but I was reading an old WD (126 IIRC) where it talks about the Codex Imperialis which was the Codex that SMs followed before the Codex Astartes was written. Is this still part of the fluff?

But since that Codex calls for a SM Regiment to have 9 companies plus attached stuff (like Scouts), it seems similar to the Codex Astartes but gives a little more leeway on what each company can field.

AndrewGPaul
19-11-2010, 18:22
The "book of doctrine" for Space Marines has been variously called the Codex Imperialis, the Codex Astartes and the Index Astartes. At various times, these names have applied to the doctrinal manual of not just the Space Marines, but to the Imperial military in general - hence why the flat grey beloved of the Imperial Guard is called Codex Grey - it's the standard grey specified by the Codex in lieu of a specific camouflage pattern.

nagash66
19-11-2010, 18:27
If anything the last couple of marine books have made allot of the unique stuff not so, where once things like the Vet assault marines ( now vanguard) or all termie list ( wolves can now also do it), or even Honour Guards ( who iirc first only had rules in codex BA) are now in codex marines making some of the more unique things the other chapters had ( Dark Angel sword of secrets = relic blade, legion of the damned now only help Ultras and pals for some reasons, etc).

So if anything the Ultramarines keep stealing their brothers toys ;)

AndrewGPaul
19-11-2010, 19:01
I think you should be careful to draw a distinction between the background and the rules. Fluff-wise, there's absolutely no reason why any Chapter cannot field an army consisting entirely of Terminators, or of bikers or of Assault squads.

Leftenant Gashrog
19-11-2010, 23:05
hence why the flat grey beloved of the Imperial Guard is called Codex Grey - it's the standard grey specified by the Codex in lieu of a specific camouflage pattern. But only for marines, the prescribed colour for guard is olive green.


The math don't add if you follow that, and GW is notorious for screwing up their own fluff.

You can't get to 1000 marines unless the scout company is 120. I've tried and done the math before, even double checked it several times. The Scout company has to be 120 for the math to work.

True, but where has GW said that the Salamanders have 1000 marines?

MajorWesJanson
19-11-2010, 23:23
Don't forget the Grey Knights chapter, who are rather non-codex, as well as the progenitors of the Exorcists (I really hope that makes it into the GK codex)

Hedgehobbit
19-11-2010, 23:51
The "book of doctrine" for Space Marines has been variously called the Codex Imperialis, the Codex Astartes and the Index Astartes.
I thought the Codex Astartes was written by Papa Smurf after the Heresy. Was there some sort of Codex before then? If so, what was it called? That old article implied that the Space Wolves followed the original Codex even though the don't follow the new one.

Col. Tartleton
20-11-2010, 00:09
Papa smurf did write it. The whole Imperium was/is supposed to use it. But that never really happened. Its a guide to war. Its not specific to marines though it does focus on them as that was the main arm of Guilliman. Strategy is Strategy. The tactics may vary but the goals are always the same. Though it seems the main literature the guard get (outside of Ultramar at least) is the uplifting primer which they're issued en masse I'm sure is more properly understood as "The Idiot's Guide to How to Not Lose Bad."

Its like the Art of War was written to deal with ancient Chinese warfare, but the principles of warfare remain constant.

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-11-2010, 03:33
What chapters are known to not follow the Codex Astartes standard organizational pattern?

DIYs tend to flaunt the Codex in some way or another on principle.

Canon Chapters by and large tend not to have this described (as most are just name and scheme).

I'd check the long list on Lexicanum for the best results.


Space Wolves, obviously, but what other ones do we know about

Depends on what practices would make them non-Codex, or rather to what degree the Chapter chooses to selectively read or ignore the Codex makes them non-Codex.


and how do they differ?

In that they can never be Ultramarines. However, they will strive to uphold the teachings of the Great Primarch and all regard Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege.

AlphariusOmegon20
20-11-2010, 07:57
True, but where has GW said that the Salamanders have 1000 marines?

Where has GW said the Salamanders have ONLY 1000 marines? Remember their LEGION was never split into sub chapters.

Some things are to be assumed as they are common amongst the majority of known Chapters.

AndrewGPaul
20-11-2010, 08:31
But only for marines, the prescribed colour for guard is olive green.

Says who? Is it in Codex: Imperial Guard? The rulebook?

Gimp
20-11-2010, 08:58
Where has GW said the Salamanders have ONLY 1000 marines? Remember their LEGION was never split into sub chapters.

Some things are to be assumed as they are common amongst the majority of known Chapters.

Well we dont know that for sure. There have been some possible sub chapters.

Storm Giants and Back Dragons have been said to have possibly been Salamander Successors

nagash66
20-11-2010, 12:35
I think you should be careful to draw a distinction between the background and the rules. Fluff-wise, there's absolutely no reason why any Chapter cannot field an army consisting entirely of Terminators, or of bikers or of Assault squads.

Quite so quite so, however what many people forget is that GW alters the background to accommodate these new units.

So where once Vet assault marines squads were a BA only background thing, this was altered to allow for Vanguard.

AndrewGPaul
20-11-2010, 16:17
I'll give you that one. However, Restricting Space Marine armies' access to Terminator squads only happened in the last ten years. All Space Marine armies could take as many Terminators as they liked in 2nd edition (except for Space Wolves, funnily enough - they were limited to 24 Wolf Guard).

Leftenant Gashrog
20-11-2010, 17:38
Where has GW said the Salamanders have ONLY 1000 marines? Remember their LEGION was never split into sub chapters.

Some things are to be assumed as they are common amongst the majority of known Chapters.

You already know where, you've said yourself the canon numbers in the IA article numbers don't reach 1,000. Do you also reject the idea of the Black Templars having more than 1,000 marines because that differs from the norm?


Says who? Is it in Codex: Imperial Guard? The rulebook?
I'm pretty certain it was in the Rogue Trader Compendium somewhere, certainly the Rhino and Land Raider plates both showed examples of Astartes vehicles in Codex Grey next to Guard vehicles in Codex Olive-Drab - I theres definately a textual statement of it somewhere.

Xisor
20-11-2010, 20:22
AlphariusOmegon20: I think my point still stands that the Salamanders are still quite codex for a non-codex chapter. Their squads are codex size and organisation, the only major difference is the structure of their companies and that their Chapter Master and First Company Captain are one and the same person (and the Forgefathers). Their librarium and forge seem similar to the Ultramarines, their divisions fight in roughly the same manner.

As for chapter size, the breakdown in the WD which first held their IA was (if memory serves) as follows:
1st Company: 12 Veteran Squads
2-3 Company: 7 Tactical, 3 Devastator, 2 Assault
4-6 Company: 12 Tactical/Dev
7th Company: 6 Scout

Assuming ten men per squad, that gives them an organisational size of 720 line Astartes + 60 Scouts. Plus all the auxiliary/command formations (captains, command squads, chaplains, drivers, librarians, techmarines).

This gives them a heavy emphasis on Dev/Tac formations (2:3 ratio, if I recall rightly) with only a handful of dedicated assault squads. But given the presence of 'vanguard' squads (which are Veterans sporting jump-packs), there's no particular reasons the Salamanders couldn't have a 'codex' allocation of Landspeeders, Bikes and Jump Packs...they just might not use them very often.

Given the clarification C:SM makes on the nature of Tac/Dev/Assault squads, it seems that, equipment permitting, Devastators can fight as Devs or Assaults, Tacticals can fight as any of the three and Veterans can fight as any of the three plus terminators. Also anyone can go back to being a scout if the situation calls for it.


On Raven Guard

Where's their 'non-Codex' preference coming from? I've not seen hint of it. Everything I've seen points to them being post-codex, not favouring non-codex alternatives where a codex-move would work better.

Lupe
21-11-2010, 06:31
On Raven Guard

Where's their 'non-Codex' preference coming from? I've not seen hint of it. Everything I've seen points to them being post-codex, not favouring non-codex alternatives where a codex-move would work better.

I think the more fluid, independent chain of command is what most people refer to... Also to their relative low of number of tanks, which means they most likely have to adapt and employ different solutions where the codex would recommends the use of heavy armour.

AndrewGPaul
21-11-2010, 10:34
Pages 38-39 of the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium have a two-page spread of the Necromundan 9th, which says "Note how the tiger-stripe battledress of some of these troops differes from the standard issue Codex grey."

Page 79 is part of a two-page spread of Rhino colour schemes. There is indeed a Blood Drinkers Rhino in Codex grey and an Imperial Guard 7th regiment Rhino in Codex olive drab, but there are also "Codex incept patterns" for Rhinos used by Medics and Chaplains, and ten different Codex camouflage patterns. Interestingly, Rhinos painted in Chapter colours are non-Codex. There's no indication that grey is standard for Marines and green for Guard - it doesn't seem to distinguish colour schemes like that at all, except for non-standard schemes using the Chapter colours.

The Land Raider spread on pages 116-117 has a 8th regiment Land Raider in grey, noted as an "unmodified Codex incept pattern" as well as a 7th regiment vehicle in green, and four Space Marine vehicles in various camouflage patterns (including one Red Scorpions tank).

Xisor
22-11-2010, 09:53
I think the more fluid, independent chain of command is what most people refer to... Also to their relative low of number of tanks, which means they most likely have to adapt and employ different solutions where the codex would recommends the use of heavy armour.

As I say, I don't see how that's non-Codex. If the codex stipulates "Rigid CoC is better than Fluid CoC", then sure. But I'm pretty certain that's not mentioned at present.

Similarly, the codex isn't going to say "If we had some ham, we could have ham and eggs, if we had some eggs. aAyone not eating ham and eggs is non-codex."

That is: The Codex'll stipulate an effective use of resources. If the Raven Guard simply don't have access to resources sufficient to output a high number of Astartes-pattern vehicles? If they don't have starships sufficient to deploy them? I don't think the codex is going to suddenly read: "Well then you're up the creek without a paddle, sir!".

Similarly, their appearance in Chapter's Due (though I've not read Hunt for Voldemort) seems to indicate the Ultramarines have no disapproval for their tactics, indeed some admiration for their seeming specialisation and dedication to pushing the boat out with their strategic/tactical ambitions.

Again, not to keep tooting the trumpet, but it seems to me that the Raven Guard are very much a post-Codex Chapter. They don't deviate so much as...go many steps further.

AndrewGPaul
22-11-2010, 10:20
I think there's more than that. It's not just that the Codex says "in these circumstances, send in a big horde o' tanks", and the Raven Guard have to deviate becuase they don't have a big horde o' tanks. I see it more as being something like:

"in these circumstances, the favoured option would be to send in a big horde o' tanks. Alternatively, Shadow Captain <thingy> showed in M33 that little mobs of scouts with sniper rifles hiding in the privies can do the job just as well. You might want to try that instead."

I don't think it simply offers one solution to any given scenario, but instead offers a range of suggestions for a commander to consider.

It's like The Art Of War or The Prince; neither of those is used as a tactics manual - any such information is centuries out of date. However, they may offer general strategies and ways of thinking about a problem that can be used to guide one's thinking.

Zweischneid
22-11-2010, 10:59
It's like The Art Of War or The Prince; neither of those is used as a tactics manual - any such information is centuries out of date. However, they may offer general strategies and ways of thinking about a problem that can be used to guide one's thinking.


Unlikely. One (less mentioned) intent of the Codex was also to allow generals and commanders to work across chapters. I.e. a Captain or Librarian or some such (or perhaps even Inquisitor) from Codex-Chapter X taking over the command of the 7th company of Codex-Chapter Y would know right away what they are, how they are trained, which weapons the use in what situations. More regularly, Codex-chapters deployed together would also know what each other is doing based on employing standardised rote-tactics and organisational set-ups. To do this, the Codex would need to be a bit more concrete than "Art of War". It would be more about standard-organisations. I.e. the Codex would stipulate what.. say.. the 3rd or the 7th company would look like. It would also perhaps say how you'd combine elements of a Codex Chapter into .. dunno .. "Siege-Force-Sigismund" or "Rapid-Offence-Force-Corax" or some such.

AlphariusOmegon20
22-11-2010, 20:04
AlphariusOmegon20: I think my point still stands that the Salamanders are still quite codex for a non-codex chapter. Their squads are codex size and organisation, the only major difference is the structure of their companies and that their Chapter Master and First Company Captain are one and the same person (and the Forgefathers). Their librarium and forge seem similar to the Ultramarines, their divisions fight in roughly the same manner.

As for chapter size, the breakdown in the WD which first held their IA was (if memory serves) as follows:
1st Company: 12 Veteran Squads
2-3 Company: 7 Tactical, 3 Devastator, 2 Assault
4-6 Company: 12 Tactical/Dev
7th Company: 6 Scout

Assuming ten men per squad, that gives them an organisational size of 720 line Astartes + 60 Scouts. Plus all the auxiliary/command formations (captains, command squads, chaplains, drivers, librarians, techmarines).

This gives them a heavy emphasis on Dev/Tac formations (2:3 ratio, if I recall rightly) with only a handful of dedicated assault squads. But given the presence of 'vanguard' squads (which are Veterans sporting jump-packs), there's no particular reasons the Salamanders couldn't have a 'codex' allocation of Landspeeders, Bikes and Jump Packs...they just might not use them very often.

Given the clarification C:SM makes on the nature of Tac/Dev/Assault squads, it seems that, equipment permitting, Devastators can fight as Devs or Assaults, Tacticals can fight as any of the three and Veterans can fight as any of the three plus terminators. Also anyone can go back to being a scout if the situation calls for it.




LOL you're almost right. Other than the scouts, you're almost spot on. (The scouts again have to be 120 strong to even get to the 1000 number. So yes, even GW needs remedial math classes.) 1st company works out to something like 5 Termie, 5 Sternguard, and 2 Vanguard.

As for Speeders bikes and what not, They have a few of that equipment, just not a lot of it. Hence why you shouldn't see it a lot in a Sallie Army.

ForgottenLore
23-11-2010, 02:10
So, lets summarize here.

Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Black Templars clearly

Some debate about Blood Angels and Dark Angels

Then various people have suggested

Iron Hands
Salamanders
Raven Guard
White Scars
Exorcists

Of those chapters that don't have their own book, all 5 are listed as codex chapters in Codex: Space Marines. Thanks GW, way to define your terms.

So, let me ask another question. In what ways can a Chapter deviate from the codex (generally speaking, you don't have to list specifics or anything) and not automatically draw the wrath of the high lords down on themselves?

Lord_Crull
23-11-2010, 02:51
So, lets summarize here.

Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Black Templars clearly

Some debate about Blood Angels and Dark Angels

Then various people have suggested

Iron Hands
Salamanders
Raven Guard
White Scars
Exorcists

Of those chapters that don't have their own book, all 5 are listed as codex chapters in Codex: Space Marines. Thanks GW, way to define your terms.

So, let me ask another question. In what ways can a Chapter deviate from the codex (generally speaking, you don't have to list specifics or anything) and not automatically draw the wrath of the high lords down on themselves?

The only things seem to be keeping roughly with the 1000 Marine limit and generally being loyal to the Imperium. (Not worshipping Chaos for example)

It's not the High Lords job or concern that the Codex is enforced.

Index Astartes: Codex Astartes.


The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful whether it could.

As long as a Chapter keeps generally around the Marine limit and is loyal there should be no problem. Wheter a Chapter choses to follow the Codex exactly is their descision. (The Wolves and Salamanders Primarchs opposed the Codex, yet aside from breaking up their Legions both chapters have their own non-Codex organizationtial quirks, the Wolves moreso than the Salamanders. Dorn was noted as choosing to make his Fists as closely Codex as possible)

Of course most chapters are Codex Chapters to a degree.

Same article as before.


However, with subsequent foundings they have always favoured the Ultramarines' gene-seed and created new Codex Chapters from their line. With the passage of time, some of these Chapters have subsequently strayed from the strict letter of the Codex, introducing new variations but remaining broadly faithful to the principles laid down by Roboute Guilliman many thousands of years before.