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Gobbo Trouble
19-11-2010, 16:48
for instance, if the tyranid or necron threat became so vast that they would undoubtedly conquer and destroy the galaxy, would space marines and csm fight side by side to survive and have a chance of winning or die instead?

x-esiv-4c
19-11-2010, 16:50
No.



More necessary letters.

Sephiroth
19-11-2010, 16:51
Die.

They might both be fighting Tyranids but there would be no formal alliance, and certainly no standing shoulder to shoulder against the alien horde.

mob16151
19-11-2010, 16:54
Die.

They might both be fighting Tyranids but there would be no formal alliance, and certainly no standing shoulder to shoulder against the alien horde.

I refuse to rule out tentacle to shoulder though. :p

Eetion
19-11-2010, 17:00
No.

As said. No formal alliance. I would however expect them to stop fighting each other and concentrate on the most immediate threat to themselves......


And when chaos has beaten off the hive fleet they can roll right over the desolate lifeless husks of worlds that once were the Imperium. ;)

hungry hungry hormagaunt
19-11-2010, 17:03
And when chaos has beaten off the hive fleet...

I think you mean "beaten back the hive fleet".

Clockwork-Knight
19-11-2010, 18:49
No.

If Tyranids and Chaos are fighting on a planet that the Imperium wanted, then they're going to virus-bomb it into oblivion. Chaos taint is already bad enough, and tyranno-forming messes up the planet for the next hundred years or so.

Tyranno-formed and chaos-mutated planets are the least desirable worlds out there.

Such a battle remains a battle melee royale, where every side fights against each another...

Mannimarco
19-11-2010, 19:15
Depends on the author really. I can see it now:

war rages over the planet, the dead of both sides piled high. Calgar and Abaddon stride through their troops each desperate to face the other in single combat knowing that the end is nigh.

Calgar catches Drach'nyen in one hand and attempts to pimp slap Abaddon with the other only for the gauntlet to be deflected by the talon of horus. At that moment their eyes meet; contempt and disgust showing in their snarling faces as the war itself seems to stop and both sides stand in awe of this epic struggle. The air is tense the skies are ripped asunder as a vast swarm of mycetic pods crash to the ground.

Calgar looks back to Abaddon, his face showing a moment of realisation as both know what needs to be done. They take a step back from each other knowing that only together can they hope to defeat this new enemy.

Calgar begins to speak and reiterates his hatred of Chaos and how he will never bow before the dark Gods but points out that their only chance for survival is to stand united. Both Calgar and Abaddon know that neither can be trusted but never the less Abaddon listens intently to these words of wisdom for even the forces of Chaos are wise enough to heed the council of one such as Calgar.

They both nod and turn to marshal their forces......only for Abaddon to blast Calgar in the back of the head as soon as his back is turned.

As both sides are destroyed by the hive fleet one of Calgars honour guard turns to Abaddon and asks why he did that, now we're both doomed. Abaddon turns to the last of his forces and watches the endless sea of tyranids overrunning them, looking mournfully back to the honour guard he replies "dont blame me, its my nature......and besides I had to betray you before you betrayed me"

DarthMcBob
19-11-2010, 19:49
When there's a blizzard in hell, then sure, why not? Apart from that, it would only happen if the Imperium gave up the faith that has kept it going for 10,000 years and the Traitor Legions gave up their very reason for existence. Both sides would probably die just to stick a big middle finger up to the other one.

Lord Damocles
19-11-2010, 19:53
for instance, if the tyranid or necron threat became so vast that they would undoubtedly conquer and destroy the galaxy, would space marines and csm fight side by side to survive and have a chance of winning or die instead?
Ha! There's about as much chance of that happening as there is of Blood Angels teaming up with Necrons!



...what's that you say? Mat Ward?



...




NOOOOOOOOOO! :cries:

Deaf Leaper
19-11-2010, 21:42
No, the Imperium would battle and finally lick the taint of chaos in the area, then go to beat off the hive fleet. If it's the Ultramarines, all other chapters can only aspire to beating off hive fleets like they can.

Son of Sanguinius
19-11-2010, 21:45
for instance, if the tyranid or necron threat became so vast that they would undoubtedly conquer and destroy the galaxy, would space marines and csm fight side by side to survive and have a chance of winning or die instead?

First, the imperium =/= space marines, and chaos =/= csm.

Do you mean openly unite? Probably not.

Do you mean would factions of each coordinate attacks against a mutually threatening enemy? Of course.

nagash66
19-11-2010, 21:58
In a GW where Mat Ward rules, nothing is safe....nothing is sacred.

destroyerlord
19-11-2010, 22:54
They both nod and turn to marshal their forces......only for Abaddon to blast Calgar in the back of the head as soon as his back is turned.
Except that when wearing terminator armour, you don't actually have a 'back of the head'. :p

And to the OP: no I don't think so. Each faction is as arrogant as the other, and neither would want to loose their reputation by teaming up with what is effectively their most hated foe. Even if they made some sort of agreement, it would only be a pretence in the hope that they could stab their opponents in the back before the same could be done to them.

Col. Tartleton
20-11-2010, 00:16
I think you mean "beaten back the hive fleet".

Haha


No, the Imperium would battle and finally lick the taint of chaos in the area, then go to beat off the hive fleet. If it's the Ultramarines, all other chapters can only aspire to beating off hive fleets like they can.

This thread has some colorful language, I'm not going to lie.

Would the Imperium and Chaos unite? Which Imperium and which Chaos?

Would the Black Templars and Black Legion make nice? No.

Would the Blood Ravens and Thousand Sons have palaver? ;)

... (Yes)

ashendant
20-11-2010, 00:34
The only chaos god i can see taking the tyrannid treat seriously (if chaos gods can take anything seriously) would be nurgle

Son of Sanguinius
20-11-2010, 00:45
The only chaos god i can see taking the tyrannid treat seriously (if chaos gods can take anything seriously) would be nurgle

If the Tyranids consume all sentient life, all the gods would be very concerned.

ashendant
20-11-2010, 01:04
If the Tyranids consume all sentient life, all the gods would be very concerned.

But i think Nurgle is the only one that would be concerned before it happened

Khorne would probably be delighting the whole way until he realises he's out of food

Same with Slanesh

Tzeench would probably go "change is good... oh no i'm out of food"

Logan_uc
20-11-2010, 01:15
the only way I see it feasibly possible is if the system is already on the brink of turning to chaos and the Legions want to to show that they and Horus where right to turn to chaos, because chaos is the only way to save humanity, and that's very unlikely.

Mannimarco
20-11-2010, 01:23
the only way I see it feasibly possible is if the system is already on the brink of turning to chaos and the Legions want to to show that they and Horus where right to turn to chaos, because chaos is the only way to save humanity, and that's very unlikely.

Kinnda makes you wonder what the 40k universe would look like today if the heresy had never happened or if Horus had succeeded.

Logan_uc
20-11-2010, 01:28
Kinnda makes you wonder what the 40k universe would look like today if the heresy had never happened or if Horus had succeeded.

Probably all xenos would be dead, and humanity would be more or less cattle in Hell, but they would survive, if you can call it that.

ashendant
20-11-2010, 01:29
They are always too entertained in their fight for domination which makes me wonder what would a fifth chaos god do in the warp, it probably would stay the same due to "The game"

MvS
20-11-2010, 08:55
There's a possibility that some servants of Chaos might side with Imperial forces briefly to fight off another threat, although the truce would be a very shaky one at best. It would be impossible to make a truce with daemons though. They aren't after the same things as mortals and death doesn't have the same meaning for them.

Chaos per se would and could not ally with the Imperium though. Chaos is a process and a taint as much as anything else. It would be like asking if such-and-such an army would ally with radioactivity or a malignant cancer to defeat a foe. You simply can't make alliances with forces like Chaos. You might be able to manipulate it or direct it elsewhere, but that's different.

ashendant
20-11-2010, 09:54
There's a possibility that some servants of Chaos might side with Imperial forces briefly to fight off another threat, although the truce would be a very shaky one at best. It would be impossible to make a truce with daemons though. They aren't after the same things as mortals and death doesn't have the same meaning for them.

Chaos per se would and could not ally with the Imperium though. Chaos is a process and a taint as much as anything else. It would be like asking if such-and-such an army would ally with radioactivity or a malignant cancer to defeat a foe. You simply can't make alliances with forces like Chaos. You might be able to manipulate it or direct it elsewhere, but that's different.

Depends if the tyrannid pose a threat or no to them, if not they shouldn't care, if they do, they are either being callous or too entertained in their game until is too late.

narrativium
20-11-2010, 10:27
They both nod and turn to marshal their forces......only for Abaddon to blast Calgar in the back of the head as soon as his back is turned.

As both sides are destroyed by the hive fleet one of Calgars honour guard turns to Abaddon and asks why he did that, now we're both doomed. Abaddon turns to the last of his forces and watches the endless sea of tyranids overrunning them, looking mournfully back to the honour guard he replies "dont blame me, its my nature......and besides I had to betray you before you betrayed me"
Bah. Abaddon would blast that guy's head off too. If the Ultramarines aren't going to be productive and swear loyalty to the Black Legion and the Ruinous Powers now of all times, what good are they?

spetswalshe
20-11-2010, 15:22
War rages over the planet, the dead of both sides piled high. Calgar and Abaddon stride through their troops each desperate to face the other in single combat knowing that the end is nigh.

Calgar catches Drach'nyen in one hand and attempts to pimp slap Abaddon with the other only for the gauntlet to be deflected by the talon of horus. At that moment their eyes meet; contempt and disgust showing in their snarling faces as the war itself seems to stop and both sides stand in awe of this epic struggle. The air is tense the skies are ripped asunder as a vast swarm of mycetic pods crash to the ground.

Calgar looks back to Abaddon, and Abaddon looks back at Calgar. "We can fight each other, loyalist, but we can never douse the flames inside us."

"Shut up," Calgar spits between gritted teeth, "Shut your twisted face and fight me."

"Ten thousand years, Marneus. That is long enough, even for hearts as wretched and shrunken as ours."

"Speak for yourself, heretic! I will crush the life from your..."

But Abaddon's eyes had softened. "I don't blame you."

"I..." Calgar desperately tried to summon the rage inside him. "You left! How dare you-"

"I'm sorry."

"You left and..." Bitter tears streamed from his face. "No! I hate you! I hate-"

But Abaddon leaned forward into his shoulder, holding him tight. And Calgar, screwing his eyes tight, leaned forward too.

"I've just... I've missed you so much, Abaddon... Never leave again. You promise me... Cross your heart..."

Abaddon leaned back, and held his greatest foe's face in his hands. "I promise," he said, and their lips met.

Fixed that for you :)

Mannimarco
20-11-2010, 15:26
Thats just calling out for a diorama isnt it?

GD open category here I come!

nagash66
20-11-2010, 15:41
spetswalshe that is just sick, truly utterly sick... good job :).

HereticHammer01
01-01-2011, 00:46
No...they hate each other too much: chaos really are just anarchists they just want to see the Imperium burn to any end (hence consorting with demons). Though I have always thought that in fluff necrons or tyranids would come out on top in the (very) long run.

ashendant
01-01-2011, 00:59
spetswalshe that is just sick, truly utterly sick... good job :).

I've seen worse with garrosh and saurfang from WOW

[lexus]
01-01-2011, 01:08
There's a possibility that some servants of Chaos might side with Imperial forces briefly to fight off another threat, although the truce would be a very shaky one at best. It would be impossible to make a truce with daemons though. They aren't after the same things as mortals and death doesn't have the same meaning for them.

Chaos per se would and could not ally with the Imperium though. Chaos is a process and a taint as much as anything else. It would be like asking if such-and-such an army would ally with radioactivity or a malignant cancer to defeat a foe. You simply can't make alliances with forces like Chaos. You might be able to manipulate it or direct it elsewhere, but that's different.

Chaos has trouble allying with itself. It is chaos after all. There are no patterns, there is no sanity, there is no logic and there are no laws. They are the exact opposite of the Imperium in that matter.

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-01-2011, 02:27
Fixed that for you :)

All of my hate, spetswalshe. What have you done? :cries:

Tenzing
01-01-2011, 13:23
Would they unite?

If the Eldar wanted them to- sure why not?

(Eldar seem to have been responsible for most of the Galaxy's biggest problems after all! )

captian Maklai
01-01-2011, 13:38
Probably all Xenos would be dead, and humanity would be more or less cattle in Hell, but they would survive, if you can call it that.

I dunno if the heresy never happened then that means that fulgrims meeting with Eldrad would go pretty well meaning a possible future friendship.

And i think the emperor would eventually cry out "Oh No!!!" as he realizes his sons are committing mass genocide a xenophobia, and reign them in.

The Devourer
01-01-2011, 13:59
They wouldn't fight in one army but if the tyranids came close to wiping out the IoM Chaos would attack the tyrainds to support the imperiums efforts.

Chaos hates the tyranids and crons as much as the IoM do. There was a comment about the nids in a chaos codex where a CSM says something about how this galaxy is theirs to corrupt and destroy. CSMS want to be the ones who destroy the imperium, they have ben fighting them for 10000 years, they don't want the nids to take it away from them.

The Chaos gods themselves won't want the galaxy stipped clean because they will die. Powerful daemons will be trying to get out of the warp and at the nids as much as possible.

When they have the full tyranid threat to deal with chaos will be the least of their worries. The imperium wouldn't help chaos marines but they probably wouldn't bother them if they are fighting nids or crons. In a battle with either of those forces, the ability to summon daemons (a never ending supply of troops) is something you don't want to loose.

So they won't unite but will fight the same enemy.

rivers3162
01-01-2011, 17:14
I was actually mulling this over the other day as being a bit of backstory for a radical inquisitor. If you disagree with my logic then I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

Basically, the Chaos gods feed off various human emotions - lust, fear, anger, greed and a host of others in between. The big 4 have no real desire to destroy or enslave humanity as then things would get very boring for them - I'm sure the greatest thrill is in the scheming or the corruption of minds rather than total domination of everything.

However Chaos needs humanity as both a counterpoint and as a power source - humanity and chaos are locked in a neverending, unwinnable battle which neither can win. People will always embrace the baser aspects of humanity no matter how ordered and advanced they are so Chaos can never be truely destroyed but then neither can humanity because Chaos depends on it.

So during the Horus Heresy, Chaos almost destroyed the only real united human empire in the galaxy (or possibly decided not to, if you want to interepret it that way) but it represented a massive crisis and by all accounts the Imperium was beleaguered and took centuries to recover to any great extent.

In the subsequent 10,000 years a whole new host of foes have emerged, all hell-bent on destroying the Imperium it and ultimately winning the galaxy for themselves. And Chaos can't let that happen because it would threaten the big 4. If the necrons turn everything into mindless automata or the tyranids eat all bio-matter what does Chaos feed on? The Eldar might still provide some sustenance to Chaos but they're a relatively small race which is at worst dying completely or at the best a spent force. The Tau, again, are small and have no known warp presence.

So, given all that I think that the argument could be made that the Imperium and Chaos do have the same common interests i.e. the preservation of humanity and the destruction of all other races. Would they ally? I severely doubt it but I could imagine them working in tandem, especially in the case of inquisitors and the like who are radical or arguably insane enough to think outside the box.

ChaosTicket
01-01-2011, 20:16
I dont think any "Disorder" forces would join any "Order" forces more more than a very short time, simply because they exists to kill each other.

As for the Tyranids everyone fights against them, simply because they exists to kill all organic life, if anything some forces(eldar) would misdirect them, such as Inquisitor Kryptman using a captured genestealer to lead a fleet towards an ork empire rather than the Imperium.

Remember this, the Enemy of my Enemy is still my Enemy.

Notanoob
01-01-2011, 21:50
At one point I thought about this-a truely massive Hive Fleet surrounds the Eye of Terror and due to the massive shadow in the warp, manage to shrink the Eye to a very tiny size-extremely weakening the Chaos gods and their servents. Cut off from the Powers, the mortal forces of Chaos essentially have Chaos stripped from them-naturally the DG would be screwed, but hey. Anyways, knowing that there is no way they can combat such a massive fleet without the help of the Chaos gods, I imagine some would be freed from the madness of Chaos and feel regret-going back to the Imperium for forgivness. Naturally, the IoM would be collapsing, and if say the Emperor was reborn, you could see Chaos screwed epically, the Primarchs returning and lead an epic crusade to save humanity from total destruction. Circling back again to the Great Crusade.

ChaosTicket
02-01-2011, 00:09
Ok first of all the Psychic shadows that the Tyranid fleets cause disrupts psyker powers, not erases the warp, second you would need several hive fleet completely surrounding the Eye of Terror, although the Tyranis may be be able to flood it with termagants.

The Traitor legions arent just cultists, but rather military personel fighting a guerilla war against the Imperium, and have artillery, infantry, shock troops, as well as various inhabitants of the daemons worlds, xenos mercenaries, etc.
---------------------------------------------------------
Tyranids arent exactly the unbeatable foe some think. They do have massive numbers but their methods require them to win-feed-move on. Lord Inquisitor Kryptman developed several techniques to defeat them, such as using Cyclonic Torpedoes to destroy worlds as they feed, concentrate forces to key defensible locations, misdirecting them to fight other xenos, and even simple anti-tyranids weapons.

Combat wise they also have some serious weaknessed, mainly the fact that so long as you kill the fastest enemies first you can simply reverse and fire to defeat them, or target their leaders.
-------------------------------------------------
IF two opposing forces could join together even for a certain time, they inevitably would split because of differences in beliefs, goals, tactics, etc.

Remember that EVERYONE is an enemy, and you cant really change that, simply because the prosperity of one race comes at the cost of another.

bound for glory
02-01-2011, 02:54
but what about the renegade chapters? some are for chaos, some are bad guys doing bad things, but some were wrongly tossed out. in a dire emergency, would a re examination of some renegade chapters be given? something like "weve reviewed your recent expolshion from the emperors light and if you help us out here, we PROMISE to look into your files..."

ChaosTicket
02-01-2011, 12:09
Unlikely, simply because they betrayed their oaths to the Imperium, and the Emperor. After a certain point any renegade chapter would turn traitor, even if innocent, simply because need for Recruits, equipment, and resources would stress them to attacking the Imperium for them to survive.

Chapters that are fighting against the Imperium but havent declared themselves traitor MAY be given a sort of Penitent Crusade, which is mainly a death sentence as the chapter has to operate normally but without resources or recruitment, like the Lamenters.

AlphariusOmegon20
02-01-2011, 13:19
Haha



This thread has some colorful language, I'm not going to lie.

Would the Imperium and Chaos unite? Which Imperium and which Chaos?

Would the Black Templars and Black Legion make nice? No.

Would the Blood Ravens and Thousand Sons have palaver? ;)

... (Yes)

LOL Agreed. I think it would have to depend on which legion and which Chapter were involved.

I could see Alpha Legion willing to set aside their "differences" with the Imperium. IW are a maybe.

Salamanders might, if there were a highly populated planet in the path of the 'Nids. Lamenters and Knights of Blood are possibilities also.


I might even be able to buy a team up between Raven Guard and Alpha Legion under extreme circumstances. Think of the hit and runs on 'Nids done by that team up.

Lupe
03-01-2011, 17:24
I think Chaos is really terrified by both the Necrons and the Tyranids. Completely and utterly terrified by them. And Chaos is also largely reliant on the neverending supply of emotions of the living citizens of the Imperium.

I mean, 'crons plan to seal off the Warp away from reality. Or, if they don't actually plan to, they certainly have the technology to do so on a small scale, and the patience to implement this one step at a time.

The Tyranids? The Shadow across the Warp is probably a scary prospect for every Chaos worshiper. The prospect of being dissolved and reused as spare parts for hundreds of mindless gaunts, both pants-crapping scary, and very demeaning. But what's worse is the fact that they can hide in the safety of the Warp. And if they do so, in the wake of the Hive Fleets, all they'll find is a barren Imperium, devoid of live, devoid of emotions to feed the Chaos Gods.

ChaosTicket
03-01-2011, 18:32
I dont know if tyranids would actually attack the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom as the Hive Mind(and its Psychic Shadow/Chaff) wouldnt erase the warp and the mutating nature of daemon worlds would make them unappealing, possibly not even consumable by the Tyranids.

Necrons are troubling as the would probably sealing the Eye of Terror(using the Pylons on Cadia) and the Maelstrom, and that would probably make them mortal enemies of chaos.

Lupe
03-01-2011, 19:06
I dont know if tyranids would actually attack the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom as the Hive Mind(and its Psychic Shadow/Chaff) wouldnt erase the warp and the mutating nature of daemon worlds would make them unappealing, possibly not even consumable by the Tyranids.


It seems implausible for the Hive Mind to directly attack the Eye of Terror.
However, it can just circle around and scour the Galaxy clean of life, and deprive the Chaos Gods of the conflict and worship they need to sustain themselves.

The only way for Chaos to prevent that is to meet the Hive Fleets before they get too close and find themselves cordoned off. The problem is, even all the Traitor marines, and all the Lost and Damned out there aren't much of a match out in the open.

So their choices are
- hide and weather the tyranids' rampage but die slowly
- go out in the open and be wiped out very fast

I'd say even the most fanatical and warped traitors (in fact, especially them) would rather go out of their way to help the Imperium, if it meant their gods and their whole lifestyle survived. And it would probably feed their egos and inflate their perceptions of their own superiority.

Zweischneid
03-01-2011, 19:27
I think people are very severely overestimating the Nids.

Hive Fleet Behemoth killed the Tyran outpost, the weakly Death Shadow Renegades who were just licking their wounds after a beating by the Ultramarines, shy away from a single, dormant Tomb World, get beat-down by an Ork Freebooter and are finally stopped at Maccragge.

Hive Fleet Naga ate a few Eldar Exodites and Maidenworlds, which in turn proved its undoing as Iyanden with two smaller Craftworlds put it out of its misery. Hive Fleet Gorgon got stuck in Tau Space for two years, actually giving the Tau another tech-boost. Hive Fleet Kraken lost its teeth right away at Ichar IV, the first somewhat populated world it tried to take on, before becoming the second "Hive Fleet notch" on Iyandens kill-score.

Hive Fleet Leviathan and Jormungandr at least take a Forgeworld or two each, though Leviathan too falls afoul of Orks it cannot beat.

Seriously? Sweeping, oversized illustrations in the Nid Codex aside, good ol Kharn and his tentacled pals would have a field day if a Hive Fleet ever dared sneak into the Eye of Terror and that be that.

ChaosTicket
03-01-2011, 20:06
The Tyranids focus on numbers and melee mostly. Their "victories" are generally over small outposts with limited military power. On worlds with powerful militaries they are generally held back until some new mutation can possibly defeat the enemy. Their main losses are from strong and adaptable enemies, which is ironic as that is what the Tyranid life goal is.

Gryphonne IV was their biggest victory and was amazing, but at the same time they didnt fight against a combined force, but just the local Mechanicus forces.

Notanoob
04-01-2011, 01:14
You two must have only read the most recent nid codex fluff then. It's absolute trash and really weakens the image of the Tyranids. Go read the 4th edition's fluff and you'll have a better idea. They're not as weak as you think.

Macragge was a super-fortress, the Segmentum's fleet came to help, fortresses stocked with multiple months worth of ammo, created by a 'tactical genius' and maned by the Ultramarine's best+the PDF, local IG regiments and a Titan Legion. They one because of a suicidal charge that sucked a bunch of the fleet into a mini-warp storm. The defenders were experianced, and an enormous amount of forces and their disposition and beat a force that was inexperienced against conventional Imperial tactics and lacking in the proper creatures to take down larger vehicles at the time (no bio titans).

Naturally, the nids can't win big because if they did they'd steamroll the at least one faction, if not cripple them.

Lord_Crull
04-01-2011, 01:42
The defenders were experianced, and an enormous amount of forces and their disposition and beat a force that was inexperienced against conventional Imperial tactics and lacking in the proper creatures to take down larger vehicles at the time (no bio titans).


Except the defenders had also never fought Tyranids before.

ChaosTicket
04-01-2011, 14:31
And the fact that the ONLY Astartes there were from the Ultramarines, and not even clear how much of their chapter was present, beyond the First Company(which was annihilated). Ichar IV they had the advantage of a genestealer uprising plaguing the planet, and lost because of the other forces aligned with the Ultramarines were there, and again in unknown numbers, it could have been only a few companies per chapter.

Easy ways to beat the Tyranids other than be adaptable and strong, are to simply shoot them, stay mobile, and starve them.
------------------------------------
The Tyranids, throughout the 3rd, 4th, and the new 5th edition codex have too little range, armor, and are about 80% melee. they went the way of the Orks, but focusing mainly on swarm tactics, and with reduced firing in the 5th edition, it got worse, so unless you use their "tactical" units like gargoyles, Trygons and the like they arent especially difficult. That carries over into the game world, as even swarms of hormagaunts and termagants are easily taken care of, and "big guys" like the Carnifex arent fast enough to avoid lots of anti tank fire, rendering them impotent. Armor is also a problem, as only a very few have any strong armor, while the carnifex, and zoanthrope got lower armor, making them easy pickings for basic krak missiles, and their "mighty" Warriors and Genestealers are pretty easy to kill with low armor.

In Fluff unless they attack small outposts or somehow sneak through using any of the "living tractors" like the Trygon they are kept at bay for some time.

Castigator
04-01-2011, 15:04
You two must have only read the most recent nid codex fluff then. It's absolute trash and really weakens the image of the Tyranids. Go read the 4th edition's fluff and you'll have a better idea. They're not as weak as you think.

Macragge was a super-fortress, the Segmentum's fleet came to help, fortresses stocked with multiple months worth of ammo, created by a 'tactical genius' and maned by the Ultramarine's best+the PDF, local IG regiments and a Titan Legion. They one because of a suicidal charge that sucked a bunch of the fleet into a mini-warp storm. The defenders were experianced, and an enormous amount of forces and their disposition and beat a force that was inexperienced against conventional Imperial tactics and lacking in the proper creatures to take down larger vehicles at the time (no bio titans).

Naturally, the nids can't win big because if they did they'd steamroll the at least one faction, if not cripple them.


So 40K descriptions of battles use alot of superlatives, implausibly large numbers and as many "epic" descriptives as you can fit on a page? Big news there.. same goes for ever skirmish and bar-fight ever described in the 40K universe.

[lexus]
04-01-2011, 15:20
I think Chaos is really terrified by both the Necrons and the Tyranids. Completely and utterly terrified by them. And Chaos is also largely reliant on the neverending supply of emotions of the living citizens of the Imperium.

I mean, 'crons plan to seal off the Warp away from reality. Or, if they don't actually plan to, they certainly have the technology to do so on a small scale, and the patience to implement this one step at a time.

The Tyranids? The Shadow across the Warp is probably a scary prospect for every Chaos worshiper. The prospect of being dissolved and reused as spare parts for hundreds of mindless gaunts, both pants-crapping scary, and very demeaning. But what's worse is the fact that they can hide in the safety of the Warp. And if they do so, in the wake of the Hive Fleets, all they'll find is a barren Imperium, devoid of live, devoid of emotions to feed the Chaos Gods.

Even if somehow the Chaos and Imperial aims are the same, they will never ever team up. Look at how difficult the relation between the Tau and the Imperium or the Eldar and the Imperium are, and they have much more in common with the Imperium then Chaos.

And I dont think the Tyrannids form such a big threat for Chaos at all. The shadow of the warp works nicely in normal space, but it remains to be seen how it would work in a place were real space and warp space are mixed up. Besides that, I think it would be extremely unhealthy for Tyrannids to actually eat a Chaos warped planet. They would get raw materials that is also warped and twisted. I wouldnt think it to be unlikely that if Tyrannids consume to much chaos, it would actually affect them, turning them into Chaos 'Nids. Now thats a scary prospect.

Lupe
04-01-2011, 16:39
There seems to be a wide spread opinion that Tyranids only comprehend consuming everything in their path.

However, the Hive Mind strikes me as a supremely sharp intelligence, able to understand tactics and strategy, and even notice patterns and weaknesses in the enemy strategies.

If consuming something like corrupted flesh would be harmful to the whole swarm, I'd imagine the Hive Mind could circumvent it. That's, of course, assuming the chaos taint has any effect on Tyranids in the first place.

And we know the Hive Mind has some affinity with (if not mastery over) the Warp. I wouldn't be surprised if it could sense that Chaos requires sentient races to sustain itself. Now, if the Hive Mind is anything like the capable sentience I described above, it could well fight Chaos by starving it, picking the Galaxy clean of all life.

What emerges from the Eye of Terror in the aftermath of the Hive Fleets will have nothing to sustain it left in the Galaxy, and no way to leave it. Certainly not a welcome prospect for any Chaos power...

Castigator
04-01-2011, 16:47
And we know the Hive Mind has some affinity with (if not mastery over) the Warp. I wouldn't be surprised if it could sense that Chaos requires sentient races to sustain itself. Now, if the Hive Mind is anything like the capable sentience I described above, it could well fight Chaos by starving it, picking the Galaxy clean of all life.
...

I dunno. "Picking the galaxy clean" sounds like a splendid evil genius masterplan, but I think you've yourself fallen for a wide spread misconception on what the Tyranids can or cannot do.

A super-smart Hivemind and all the warp-mastery they can muster isn't gonna "pick the galaxy clean of life" as long as any half-way equipped Adeptus Mechanicus outpost and runnaway Craftworld can sent a Hive fleet packing back to where they came from.

The notion that the Nids "eat all life around the Eye" is about equally plausible as the Tau converting everything in the Galaxy to the greater good.

Nids don't lack smarts or warp-tricks, compared to the big players like the IoM, Orks or even the Eye of Terror, they first and foremost lack in scale...

[lexus]
05-01-2011, 10:23
There seems to be a wide spread opinion that Tyranids only comprehend consuming everything in their path.

However, the Hive Mind strikes me as a supremely sharp intelligence, able to understand tactics and strategy, and even notice patterns and weaknesses in the enemy strategies.

If consuming something like corrupted flesh would be harmful to the whole swarm, I'd imagine the Hive Mind could circumvent it. That's, of course, assuming the chaos taint has any effect on Tyranids in the first place.

And we know the Hive Mind has some affinity with (if not mastery over) the Warp. I wouldn't be surprised if it could sense that Chaos requires sentient races to sustain itself. Now, if the Hive Mind is anything like the capable sentience I described above, it could well fight Chaos by starving it, picking the Galaxy clean of all life.

What emerges from the Eye of Terror in the aftermath of the Hive Fleets will have nothing to sustain it left in the Galaxy, and no way to leave it. Certainly not a welcome prospect for any Chaos power...
Youre making some gross assumptions there about Chaos. A Chaos warped planet is not totally devoid of life. Far from it, there is still a certain population of heretics and Chaos worshippers. Not all of them just die out. Sure, for Chaos demons to exist it requires a constant slaughter party, so it would merely contain demons to the warp.

And say that Tyranids dont eat corrupted planets, it only makes it easier for Chaos. Their worlds are safe from being eaten in that case. And if they actually do eat it, they run the risk of getting corrupted themselves. Id say its a win win for Chaos. Either they loose one planet and gain a corrupted Tyranid fleet or they dont loose their planets at all.

Lupe
05-01-2011, 17:25
Nids don't lack smarts or warp-tricks, compared to the big players like the IoM, Orks or even the Eye of Terror, they first and foremost lack in scale...

Lack scale? I don't know... an race whose greatest strength lies in overwhelming numbers and the capacity to further those numbers? Could be, but that depends on whether you subscribe to the theory that we've faced off the main Tyranid threat, as opposed to a small scouting force.

My choice is the former. I base that on the following leap of logic.

Tyranids are the only life form that we know of to have mastered intergalactic
travel, a very dangerous and energy consuming feat. Because they actually resort it, that means that they have far larger goals than feeding off a few sectors.

The reason why they're in our galaxy now is worth considering too. Why not just feed off the worlds in their own galaxy? Either because they cleaned that to the barren rock, or because they're being pushed back by a stronger force, and they've found far softer targets to build their strength on.


;5221721']Youre making some gross assumptions there about Chaos. A Chaos warped planet is not totally devoid of life. Far from it, there is still a certain population of heretics and Chaos worshippers. Not all of them just die out. Sure, for Chaos demons to exist it requires a constant slaughter party, so it would merely contain demons to the warp.

Actually, I was assuming that everything BUT chaos worlds would be picked clean, and when cultists and traitor marines come out of hiding, they'll find everything else devoid of life.


;5221721']And say that Tyranids dont eat corrupted planets, it only makes it easier for Chaos. Their worlds are safe from being eaten in that case. And if they actually do eat it, they run the risk of getting corrupted themselves. Id say its a win win for Chaos. Either they loose one planet and gain a corrupted Tyranid fleet or they dont loose their planets at all.
The part in bold pretty much says that I doubt Chaos can corrupt Tyranids.

If consuming something like corrupted flesh would be harmful to the whole swarm, I'd imagine the Hive Mind could circumvent it. That's, of course, assuming the chaos taint has any effect on Tyranids in the first place. But even if it did have any effect, how much of the force could be corrupted? The Hive Mind is in supreme control. It's devoid of emotions, and thus incorruptible by Chaos. And I somehow suspect that it could tell if some of its minions are acting funny. How long would it take before the corrupted forces are overrun by minions within full control of the Hive Mind? And after that, the Hive Mind would just steer his forces away from any trace of Chaos, leading us exactly to the scenario above, with Chaos followers emerging from the relative safety of their daemonworlds, to find all life snuffed out...

Castigator
05-01-2011, 18:15
Lack scale? I don't know... an race whose greatest strength lies in overwhelming numbers and the capacity to further those numbers? Could be, but that depends on whether you subscribe to the theory that we've faced off the main Tyranid threat, as opposed to a small scouting force.

My choice is the former. I base that on the following leap of logic.

Tyranids are the only life form that we know of to have mastered intergalactic
travel, a very dangerous and energy consuming feat. Because they actually resort it, that means that they have far larger goals than feeding off a few sectors.

The reason why they're in our galaxy now is worth considering too. Why not just feed off the worlds in their own galaxy? Either because they cleaned that to the barren rock, or because they're being pushed back by a stronger force, and they've found far softer targets to build their strength on.


...

As you've said... a leap of logic. Not something solid.

By a similar leap of logic, the mysteriously, and seemingly externally accelerated technological evolution of the Tau (hidden behind a covenient, likely also artificially created, millenia-long, sector-spanning Warp Strom; no less) amounts to a similarly advanced feat of manipulating whole civilizations purposefully from primitivism to at least regionally intergalactic hegemony. A species capable of this immensely time and energy-consuming feat wouldn't likely bet on doing it for one civilization in the galaxy, nor would a race capable of planning in this scale and magnitude be intimidated by anything currently present in the 40K fluff, not even the C'Tan in their prime were able of subterfudge on this scale.

Conclusion.. the Tau represent the spearhead/vanguard of the by far "greatest threat/most potent player" in the known Galaxy of 40K.



.. See... I can leap-of-logic/faith/spin-you anything into being the most dangerous thing out there.

But going strictly by what we have in the book, Tyranids have so far proven a minor threat (even as their battle-tactics rely in superiour numbers locally). They are certainly dangerous to isolated worlds or ill-defended systems, but nothing to worry a well-defended core cluster of worlds in the IoM (or the Tau Empire), let alone the Eye.

[lexus]
05-01-2011, 22:00
The part in bold pretty much says that I doubt Chaos can corrupt Tyranids.
But even if it did have any effect, how much of the force could be corrupted? The Hive Mind is in supreme control. It's devoid of emotions, and thus incorruptible by Chaos. And I somehow suspect that it could tell if some of its minions are acting funny. How long would it take before the corrupted forces are overrun by minions within full control of the Hive Mind? And after that, the Hive Mind would just steer his forces away from any trace of Chaos, leading us exactly to the scenario above, with Chaos followers emerging from the relative safety of their daemonworlds, to find all life snuffed out...

No, chaos can corrupt everything, even if it doesnt have any emotion. It can corrupt the very earth and air of a planet. Its corruption goes back to a molecular level. Since Tyranids basically eat the air of a world, it would also eat the infected air of an earth. Its essentially pumping poison into a hive fleet. The hive mind would loose control, or maybe gets infected itself when all its minions are build out of corrupted molecules.

So maybe it learns, and avoids further chaos infested worlds. In which case, Chaos can keep their planets. Keep a lot of slaves which they can torture and stuff.

Then there is also still the Eldar, and perhaps also the fact that the warhammer galaxy is just one of many uncounted other galaxies withing the universe.