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jthdotcom
20-11-2010, 02:01
Just wondering what happens if a unit is bought down to WS 0? For example my chaos knights with mark of nurgle charge you and you fail your fear test, you are now WS1, but my nurgle mark reduces your WS by 1, can you still fight? Are you hit automatically and can't fight back?

TMATK
20-11-2010, 02:56
Search the rules forum for "mark of nurgle fear", many threads on this issue.

H33D
20-11-2010, 02:56
You are hit automatically. There is nothing in the rulebook stating that you can not fight. In fact i believe I remember the rulebook saying something along the lines of always hitting on at least 6s in close combat. Since WS 0 is not in the reference sheet I can see RAI going either way but I believe RAW is you hit on 6s.

TMATK
20-11-2010, 03:12
You are hit automatically...

FAQ says that units are -1 WS when targeting a MoN unit, so it can be argued that they are not -1 WS when being targeted.

It's hazy at best and could really use some clarification.

The way I play it is the unit still hits on 6's an is not hit automatically.

Synnister
20-11-2010, 03:46
The major discussion point on this issue is the statement that models with a 0 in an attribute cannot use that attribute. They give an example of 0 BS not being able to use ranged weapons. One could conclude from that, that if you have 0 WS you'd not be able to use close combat weapons thus unable to attack. I personally believe that you cannot attack if you have 0WS and the 6 rule is for negatives to the to hit roll. I'm not saying that that is right just how I interpret it. It could go either way with compelling arguments on both sides.

havoc626
20-11-2010, 03:51
While the example given isn't one that gives WS 0 (due to it only working when a model attacks the MoN model), I'd say that if a model/unit is reduced to WS 0, then it can't attack (does apply here) and can't defend (ie, hit automatically).

Can't think of an example where this can happen at the moment though.

AMWOOD co
20-11-2010, 03:58
If you use buildings that can be destroyed, the building is considered to have WS 0. Uncrewed machines used to be WS 0 as well (now they just die). Typically, WS - will only come into play when using special scenario rules, Mark of Nugle with Fear not withstanding.

Svarten
20-11-2010, 10:00
Isnīt it possible, that you get the -1 penalty from MoN BEFORE you get WS1 from fear? Have no rules backing me up on this, just an idea from my tired brain xD

jthdotcom
20-11-2010, 10:52
Isnīt it possible, that you get the -1 penalty from MoN BEFORE you get WS1 from fear? Have no rules backing me up on this, just an idea from my tired brain xD
I think if GW were to FAQ this, they would simply use their cop pout answer of "the player whose turn is taking place decides which order they happen". As there seem to be no rules to explain this, and based on previous posts, my opinion is that you are at WS1 to defend against me, so I will always hit on 3's, but as you are at WS0 when targeting me, you cannot strike. Maybe a house rule could be put in place that when fighting at WS0 you hit on 5's as normal, but only make 1 attack with your bare hands, you do not benefit from any weapons you have as you have zero skill to use it, this would also remove your ability to parry or use your shield at all. Not rules based, but I think logical, and a sensible house rule for those willing to take it on.

THIS IS NOT RULES BASED, IT IS SIMPLY MY OPINION OF WHAT A GOOD HOUSE RULE FOR THIS SITUATION COULD BE I AM NOT TRYING TO ENFORCE IT ON OTHERS, OR SAYING THAT I AM CORRECT

mariote
20-11-2010, 10:54
The causing fear test must be done at the begining of each round of combat, while mark of nurgle states that an enemy unit targeting a model with this mark has -1 to hit.
So first the test, then you target for hit.

jthdotcom
20-11-2010, 11:00
Thats a good point, it means the fearful unit will always be WS1 to defend, meaning the would still get the shield bonus's and parry. But still how to resolve the fact that they will be striking me at WS0? Does anyone think that part of my house rule would work? Or is even realistic/fair?

Lord_Elric
20-11-2010, 11:46
You are hit automatically. There is nothing in the rulebook stating that you can not fight. In fact i believe I remember the rulebook saying something along the lines of always hitting on at least 6s in close combat. Since WS 0 is not in the reference sheet I can see RAI going either way but I believe RAW is you hit on 6s.

the BRB states that ws0 you are hit automaticly and cannot strike

jthdotcom
20-11-2010, 12:11
So in the case of failing fear against mark of nurgle, you are hit on 3's and can't strike back, as the mark of nurgle only affects you when targetting, not when being struck

Lord_Elric
20-11-2010, 12:21
So in the case of failing fear against mark of nurgle, you are hit on 3's and can't strike back, as the mark of nurgle only affects you when targetting, not when being struck

Atualy that is true it only works when your targeting the guy with mark of nurgle...hmm

we generaly play it that as 90% of stat decreasing items/spells have the (to a minimum of 1) notation, that any that dont have this restriction can reduce a stat to 0 as the note surely has been left out for a reason but giuess that isnt strictly RAW.

As by RAW any item that has the ability to reduce a stat below 0 or above 10 requires a statment excluding it from this limitation. therefore MoN has no effect on a model that has already failed a Fear test......sorry

Lungboy
20-11-2010, 12:30
Is there a rule that says that no stat can be reduced below 1 unless otherwise specified? Fairly sure there isn't.

Lord_Elric
20-11-2010, 12:36
Is there a rule that says that no stat can be reduced below 1 unless otherwise specified? Fairly sure there isn't.

Actualy that is true my apologise the rule stats they cannot go below 0 or above 10 thank you for pionting that out i apologise

they would mean that as MoN only comes into effect when the model rolls to hit the bearer and Fear is applied at the start of combat then MoN would reduce weapon skill to 0 when hitting the bearer

so models fighting a unit with MoN and fail a fear test cannot stirke the unit with the mark atall.....

jthdotcom
20-11-2010, 12:52
I really hope this thread doesn't go the same way as the frenzy affecting mounts thread, as I'm fairly sure we have actually resolved the issue in less than 20 posts!

theunwantedbeing
20-11-2010, 12:53
I really hope this thread doesn't go the same way as the frenzy affecting mounts thread, as I'm fairly sure we have actually resolved the issue in less than 20 posts!

RAW, it reduces it to 0 and you don't get to strike.
RAI, we houserule that it's to a minimum of 1.

Lungboy
20-11-2010, 12:57
Didn't there used to be a minimum of 1 stipulation on it in 7th, that they removed in 8th?

theunwantedbeing
20-11-2010, 13:46
Didn't there used to be a minimum of 1 stipulation on it in 7th, that they removed in 8th?

Yup, hence RAI is we houserule that clause back in.

Lungboy
20-11-2010, 13:48
Surely the removal of the clause points towards the RAI being that it can reduce WS to 0?

theorox
20-11-2010, 13:51
MoNurgle only gives you -1 WS when YOU are attacking, and you still hit on 6's i guess...

Theo

Lungboy
20-11-2010, 14:04
Why would you still hit on 6s if you have WS0?

theunwantedbeing
20-11-2010, 14:10
Why would you still hit on 6s if you have WS0?

No, as that's not a rule.


Surely the removal of the clause points towards the RAI being that it can reduce WS to 0?

Note they removed where they state that chaops knights replace their ensorcelled weapons with lances.
So currently, they upgrade to them
St7 magical lances anyone?

Eta
20-11-2010, 15:00
Note they removed where they state that chaops knights replace their ensorcelled weapons with lances.
So currently, they upgrade to them
St7 magical lances anyone?

Huh? That is still in the errata I have just downloaded :shifty:.

Torpedo Vegas
20-11-2010, 15:22
I don't have my rulebook with me but I was under the impression that you could never hit on anything less than a 3+. Or maybe that's my low WS empire army talking for my.

theunwantedbeing
20-11-2010, 15:23
Heh, so it is.
Wonder how I missed that....

@ Torpedo Vegas
The to-hit chart only goes as low as 3+ to hit, although modifiers that grant +1 to hit can improve this to 2+ (or better, although a 1 to hit is a fail, as per page 50 of the rulebook).

When fighting something with no weaponskill value, you auto-hit (page 4 of the rulebook).

decker_cky
20-11-2010, 16:47
When fighting something with WS0, you automatically hit. It never says that WS0 can't attack or can't hit. What it does say is to roll for each attack you have, and compare it to the chart, with a side clause that 6's always hit (this is an independent clause which stands without the modifier references).

You still hit on 6's. In the case of mark of nurgle, you are still only hit on 3's because you're WS1 when you aren't attacking.

AMWOOD co
20-11-2010, 16:53
Interesting arguement. It seems to fit all the rules and I can't think of an exception off the top of my head. That very much seems to work. It would still be nice to see this FAQ'ed (and we've been wanting that since... the start of 8th?), but this will work for now.

Of course, I don't dictate my gaming group, but this is an idea to put forward... not that I ever use Nurgle.

Lord_Elric
20-11-2010, 17:57
When fighting something with WS0, you automatically hit. It never says that WS0 can't attack or can't hit. What it does say is to roll for each attack you have, and compare it to the chart, with a side clause that 6's always hit (this is an independent clause which stands without the modifier references).

You still hit on 6's. In the case of mark of nurgle, you are still only hit on 3's because you're WS1 when you aren't attacking.

um no thats wrong just because WS0 has an extra piont that your hit automaticly in the characteristics of zero section does not mean it also ignore the first paragraph i quote

"Which means they have no ability in that skill what so ever"

it references BS in this paragraph because it the most prevalent case but model With BS0 cannot shoot EVER no matter what. models with WS0 have no ability in that skill whatsoever therefore can do nothing atall in CC it states they are hit automaticly because that would not otherwise be something completly obvious to every player...

in the same way models with BS0 have no abiltiy to shoot so even if they had missle weapons they wouldnt even be permitted a roll the same case exists with WS

TMATK
20-11-2010, 18:49
um no thats wrong just because WS0 has an extra piont that your hit automaticly in the characteristics of zero section does not mean it also ignore the first paragraph i quote

"Which means they have no ability in that skill what so ever"

it references BS in this paragraph because it the most prevalent case but model With BS0 cannot shoot EVER no matter what. models with WS0 have no ability in that skill whatsoever therefore can do nothing atall in CC it states they are hit automaticly because that would not otherwise be something completly obvious to every player...

in the same way models with BS0 have no abiltiy to shoot so even if they had missle weapons they wouldnt even be permitted a roll the same case exists with WS

Remember, they are WS0 when targeted, not when targeting. It does not say they are WS0 when in base to base ( I'm pretty sure it used to say that, old FAQ maybe?)

Here's a few longish threads where this was argued to no avail:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272521&highlight=mark+nurgle+fear
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265834&highlight=mark+nurgle+fear

This forum should have a sticky, with "Warseer FAQs" so people can find the existing threads for contentious issues. Or maybe just use the search function...

AMWOOD co
20-11-2010, 18:49
Thus we come back to the paradox of the arguement.

First, yes, I'm flip flopping. WS 0 should not be able to attack. But Nurgle Knights present the following paradox.

Model (we'll call him Attacker) has WS 1 and is attacking.
Attacker targets Nurgle Model
Attacker has -1 WS setting WS to 0

Paradox: WS 0 models may not attack but Attacker must attack Nurgle Model to have his WS become 0.

It's that classic 'The liar says he is lying' paradox (anyone else remember 'I, Mudd'?). We must solve this one of three ways:

1. The attack fails.
2. Allow the attack at 6 to hit
3. Minimum of WS 1 for Mark of Nurgle.

I think 2 is a reasonable compromise, supported by the rules as shown by decker_cky.

AMWOOD co
20-11-2010, 18:52
This forum should have a sticky, with "Warseer FAQs" so people can find the existing threads for contentious issues. Or maybe just use the search function...

I just looked for locked issues. The Rules Forum only keeps posts for 1 month and so the issue isn't there any more. We do need a Sticky saying which issues haven't/can't be resolved.

TMATK
20-11-2010, 19:31
I just looked for locked issues. The Rules Forum only keeps posts for 1 month and so the issue isn't there any more. We do need a Sticky saying which issues haven't/can't be resolved.

The threads are still there if you search, you just can't find them flipping through the pages.

This is the one I remember reading back in July, after 8th was released - http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265834

Lord_Elric
20-11-2010, 19:52
I understand that TMATK i was setting out a previous statmeent

im in the WS0 automaticly fails as you are reduced to WS0 the moment you direct attacks towards the model bearing the mark and as you have attacks to direct it does not create a paradox atall (if it reduced A to 0 then it would) you basicly declare your attacks against the bearer only to find WS0 you have no chance of hitting...

Kalandros
20-11-2010, 20:05
Doesn't it say that stuff can't lower a stat to Zero without specifically stating it can? Mark of Nurgle is -1WS but minimum is WS1, since it doesn't specify reducing stat to zero~

Or is that only for certain things? O:

Lord_Elric
20-11-2010, 20:31
Doesn't it say that stuff can't lower a stat to Zero without specifically stating it can? Mark of Nurgle is -1WS but minimum is WS1, since it doesn't specify reducing stat to zero~

Or is that only for certain things? O:

i belive that is only stated under the description for hexs and augments

TMATK
20-11-2010, 20:59
I understand that TMATK i was setting out a previous statmeent

im in the WS0 automaticly fails as you are reduced to WS0 the moment you direct attacks towards the model bearing the mark and as you have attacks to direct it does not create a paradox atall (if it reduced A to 0 then it would) you basicly declare your attacks against the bearer only to find WS0 you have no chance of hitting...

So you're saying that when a unit targets a MoN, fails fear, he stays WS0 for the whole turn? I can see that argument, but I can also see the counter.

To be perfectly honest, I think getting hit automatically with no attacks back is really dumb. :) Just let your buddy hit on 6's and not get automatically hit. WoC are stong enough as it is.

I remember the good old days. Back when the FAQ said "to a minimum of 1." Life was much simpler then. :D

Lord_Elric
20-11-2010, 21:06
So you're saying that when a unit targets a MoN, fails fear, he stays WS0 for the whole turn? I can see that argument, but I can also see the counter.

To be perfectly honest, I think getting hit automatically with no attacks back is really dumb. :) Just let your buddy hit on 6's and not get automatically hit. WoC are stong enough as it is.

I remember the good old days. Back when the FAQ said "to a minimum of 1." Life was much simpler then. :D

o no im not saying he stay WS0 sorry if you misunderstood he wouldnt b able to strike atall but wouldnt get hit automaticly as its only when the enemy targets the bearer it comes into effect and i personaly dont see it as much of a problem tbh and gives fear a use lol

I gain the same effect with a combination of word of pain and transmutation of lead to reach WS 0 and play both effects (auto hit and no return strike)
but wording on MoN nurgle is wuite clear when the -1 ws happens

Chris_
20-11-2010, 22:27
I gain the same effect with a combination of word of pain and transmutation of lead to reach WS 0 and play both effects (auto hit and no return strike)
but wording on MoN nurgle is wuite clear when the -1 ws happensWell that is wrong as the Transmutation is not allowed to take it below 1. There are general rules for all hexes and augments, see page 31 BRB.

RanaldLoec
20-11-2010, 23:10
There are 3 things in this universe that can end a rules debate on Warseer.

1) A narked off moderator

2) The sun goes supernova killing us all

3) (This will never happen) A clear and concise faq answer

Lord_Elric
21-11-2010, 00:13
Well that is wrong as the Transmutation is not allowed to take it below 1. There are general rules for all hexes and augments, see page 31 BRB.

i gather that but as its the only spell in the brb that doesnt state to a minimum of 1 our gameing group plays it as it can take it to 0 theres a few red shirts tht agree to tbh it can make metal worth taking lol i know its not 100% RAW but close enough to not cause any probs between us lot (an i wasnt the 1 calling for it to reduce to 0 either)

besides the fact that the note under hexs only states "normaly" then thats not an absolute anyway so its kinda thing that just depends on the tournament organiser (aka usualy the best way of resolve 1 of 1000s debates ask a TO)

theunwantedbeing
21-11-2010, 00:26
i gather that but as its the only spell in the brb that doesnt state to a minimum of 1 our gameing group plays it as it can take it to 0 theres a few red shirts tht agree to tbh it can make metal worth taking lol i know its not 100% RAW but close enough to not cause any probs between us lot (an i wasnt the 1 calling for it to reduce to 0 either)

Your gaming group is wrong then, as are the red shirts who agree (to be honest, anything a red shirt says can be taken to be false with regards to rules, they're usually the least informed memebers of the gaming community).


besides the fact that the note under hexs only states "normaly" then thats not an absolute anyway so its kinda thing that just depends on the tournament organiser (aka usualy the best way of resolve 1 of 1000s debates ask a TO)

Normally may well not be an absolute, although it's enough to require a spell to state when it breaks from the norm. In this case it is lowering a stat to 0, when normally it'll only lower it to 1.
While it doesn't have the "to a minimum of 1" clause the other spells that lower stats do, the simple fact that it's pointed out as normal in the hex section means that to a minimum of 1 is the norm.

AMWOOD co
21-11-2010, 00:30
We already have a spell that defies this limit in the form of Curse of the Leper which specifically talks about what happens when a model's Strength or Toughness reaches zero due to this spell. While not a Hex, it would fall under the handy catch-all phrase "and other spells" on the italicized section of p31, thus showing the norm is not absolute.

Chris_
21-11-2010, 01:52
i gather that but as its the only spell in the brb that doesnt state to a minimum of 1 our gameing group plays it as it can take it to 0 theres a few red shirts tht agree to tbh it can make metal worth taking lol i know its not 100% RAW but close enough to not cause any probs between us lot (an i wasnt the 1 calling for it to reduce to 0 either)

besides the fact that the note under hexs only states "normaly" then thats not an absolute anyway so its kinda thing that just depends on the tournament organiser (aka usualy the best way of resolve 1 of 1000s debates ask a TO)It is 0% RAW. Is there anything in the spell description that says you can take it below 1? No, so it follows the general rules for hexes and augments. This is a normal case, Transmutation is a normal hex, it works as normal, it follows all the normal rules for spells and specifically hexes. The rules for hexes says that it can't take a characteristic below 1 if this is not allowed by the spell, which it isn't.

It is however okay to house rule it to make Lore of Metal more useful! But you should note when writing it in the rules section that it is a house rule and not RAW.

Lord_Elric
21-11-2010, 08:42
It is 0% RAW. Is there anything in the spell description that says you can take it below 1? No, so it follows the general rules for hexes and augments. This is a normal case, Transmutation is a normal hex, it works as normal, it follows all the normal rules for spells and specifically hexes. The rules for hexes says that it can't take a characteristic below 1 if this is not allowed by the spell, which it isn't.

It is however okay to house rule it to make Lore of Metal more useful! But you should note when writing it in the rules section that it is a house rule and not RAW.

wow i caused quiye a stir with that havent i lol and did i not state that it wasnt entirely raw???