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Death Whisper
20-11-2010, 05:28
Assuming that we are going off of the fluff where he is a conglomeration of powerful, Eldar-like psykers (retaining souls/personalities after death) how is the Emperor so powerful?

It obviously isn't the whole emotion/belief Warp-entity power-up since he possessed at least some god-like power(immortality) before he even revealed himself as the Emperor.

Does the merging process have some kind of multiplicative or exponential effect? However, if all it takes is some psychic merging ritual to become that powerful, how come there aren't sorceror covens merging into new warp-entities all the time?

starlight
20-11-2010, 05:38
Because the background says he was.

How do you know?

No one knows. How do you know there aren't? In fact there is evidence that this is in fact happening (attracting Inquisitorial attention and being labelled with the taint of Chaos).

MvS
20-11-2010, 08:45
Assuming that we are going off of the fluff where he is a conglomeration of powerful, Eldar-like psykers (retaining souls/personalities after death) how is the Emperor so powerful?
Well I would suppose his psychic 'hole' into the Warp would be considerably larger than almost any other mortal's, meaning that he could draw on more of the Warp's energies at any given moment. Also, as his mind is made up of thousands of incredibly ancient and experienced psykers, perhaps these consciousnesses acting as a gestalt whole are better at driving away Warp predators that may try to enter his mind.

I think also that the Emperor supposedly came into being before Chaos had taken much notice of the emergent species of humanity, so his soul (or Many Soul) had no 'taint', not even trace Chaos taint, so a daemon trying to grab it might be a bit like an egg trying to stick to oiled teflon.


Does the merging process have some kind of multiplicative or exponential effect? However, if all it takes is some psychic merging ritual to become that powerful, how come there aren't sorceror covens merging into new warp-entities all the time?
The older imagery mentioned death cults set up with this very purpose in mind - so that souls can merge together in the Warp and attain some sort of conscious immortality. The Emperor's trick seems to have been that he also managed to reincarnate his 'super-soul' into a mortal body - something that seems to be very tricky in the imagery, or else any number of daemons and Warp gribblies would be doing it all the time.

DYoung
20-11-2010, 10:42
I think also that the Emperor supposedly came into being before Chaos had taken much notice of the emergent species of humanity, so his soul (or Many Soul) had no 'taint', not even trace Chaos taint, so a daemon trying to grab it might be a bit like an egg trying to stick to oiled teflon.

I think the Emperor's birth actually predates any of the main four Chaos gods'.

sammysparks1979
20-11-2010, 11:04
err he's actually a god but doesn't realise this?

MvS
20-11-2010, 12:50
I think the Emperor's birth actually predates any of the main four Chaos gods'.
In a sense yes, although the Emperor doesn't pre-date Chaos in general.

bluemage
20-11-2010, 13:24
The Emperor only predates slaanesh. The other three were created back when the old ones were still running around.

Clockwork-Knight
20-11-2010, 14:09
All chaos gods have always existed in some form or another, and have also managed to retcon themselves into being older than the point of existence. Yet, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle only became fully-formed when humanity reached the dark ages, "shortly" followed by Slaanesh a few hundred centuries later.

MvS
20-11-2010, 14:12
The Emperor only predates slaanesh. The other three were created back when the old ones were still running around.
He's talking about the imagery from the Lost and the Damned and Slaves to Darkness books where it explains that Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle came into being because of the psychic output of humans throughout their development.

Hence Chaos didn't begin with humanity, but the consciousnesses of Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle did.

That said, the depths of the Warp are also outside of time, so this all gets more and more complicated the more we speak about it. :)

spetswalshe
20-11-2010, 15:11
The RoC books do seem to ignore the massive Eldar empire that was around at the time, though. I'd expect them to have had more of an impact than a billion or so humans.

Clockwork-Knight
20-11-2010, 16:45
Eh, humans are special.

Also, the eldar were probably instructed by the space frogs to not feed those nasty warp storms that would become Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch, but they couldn't foresee that the eldar would build up the freakish hermaphrodite princess of excess instead.

Finnith
20-11-2010, 17:30
It does mention that chaos existed before the Emperor or New-Man was born and was starting to take an interest in humanity by eating its psychic protectors 1 at a time while they were trying to reincarnate. Humanity just acted as a catalyst and put a name/face to the pools of evil which had already existed since the war in heaven.

To the OP:

The Emperor was a designed a super human with the minds and knowledge of hundreds/thousands of early psychers all of which were utterly dedicated to the survival of humanity over any other concern. So much so that they killed themselves and lost their individuality to create a being who could protect humanity from chaos and itself. This might be a big difference between creating the Emperors super soul vs a bunch of random psychers/demons giving it a go.

Hes was born immortal (to regular human parents) to reduce the downtime required to reincarnate and to reduce the risk of chaos ambushing his soul in the warp. It feels less godlike when hes given a power bu committee.

The Emperor is powerful due to the concentration of power within him and the experience he brings to the table. Whilst at the crusade he may have been only 36,000 years old he had the memories of the shaman of old to call upon which could have put him in the hundreds of thousands years experience. The Emperor wasnt about leveling cities with his mind, it was about using his knowledge and experience to get the result required with the minimal amount of effort on his part. He could call upon mighty powers when needed such as in his fight with Horus but that was him going full out and the effort of it seemed to hurt him almost as much as Horus did.

Kage2020
20-11-2010, 18:57
P
l
o
t

A
r
m
o
u
r

That's about it, to be fair. Same thing seems to go for the Marines as well. :D

Kage

Half Breed
20-11-2010, 19:03
P
l
o
t

A
r
m
o
u
r

That's about it, to be fair. Same thing seems to go for the Marines as well. :D

Kage

Is there a faction not sporting plot armor, aside from the squats? Lets be fair here.

Kage2020
20-11-2010, 19:04
True, though the whiff is mighty strong when it comes to the Emperor and "his sons."

Plus, I just wanted to do the whole column text thing. :D

Kage

Half Breed
20-11-2010, 19:06
True, though the whiff is mighty strong when it comes to the Emperor and "his sons."

The smell of greatness. ;)


Plus, I just wanted to do the whole column text thing. :D

Understandable. :D

Kage2020
20-11-2010, 19:07
The smell of greatness. ;)
Whatever it is, it sure does make plants grow well.

Kage

Finnith
20-11-2010, 21:59
True, though the whiff is mighty strong when it comes to the Emperor and "his sons."Kage

His actual kids get it pretty tough though. Talk about a dead beat dad if your own kids are invisible to you. Half of dads empire wants you dead, the other half want to sacrifice you to bring your dad back.

TrooperTino
21-11-2010, 16:18
I think this reference was more about the Primarchs :D

The Emperor was so powerfull because of his knowledge and wisdom like it is mentioned above. Eventually very good fareseeing abilitys, IIRC there is an old story about him sitting in his throneroom during the siege of terra and he can't see the future anymore, so he could before. And he is the only godlike entity in 40k with a clear goal and a plan, so his actions were very focussed, however and whyever (is this a word?) his plan misfired so hard in the end is another question.

IvanTih
21-11-2010, 17:25
Well for the feat in the First Heretic he forces the entire Word Bearers legion to kneel down by the force of his mind.
Also I remember that the first Lord of Change said that when the Emperor dies the real war begins.
As for the power he's the reincarnation of thousands shamans.

tezdal
21-11-2010, 19:50
He's space Jesus, what more explanation is needed.

Idaan
21-11-2010, 20:16
Just to throw a spanner in the works, how can he be the reincarnation of thousands of psykers if the total population of Earth in 8000BC was 5 millions? There had to be a difference by several orders of magnitude in the proportion of psykers to non-psykers - in M41 it's one psyker for every million people.

TrooperTino
21-11-2010, 20:25
maybe they weren't all humans.... or the shamans of that time had more tricks, were in better contact with the earth or incorporated spirits like the north american indians have, maybe the warp was calmer at this time but the barrier between material world and warp thinner, so there were more psykers. Or the E got stronger over time... maybe we have no psykers today because right now he is protecting us by searching for psykers and eating their souls becoming stronger with each as a sideeffect...

spetswalshe
21-11-2010, 21:55
Or it was just badly written in a time when the background was taken from the back of Lord Of The Rings-themed cereal packets.

Kage2020
21-11-2010, 22:02
Or it was just badly written in a time when the background was taken from the back of Lord Of The Rings-themed cereal packets.
So that is where Merrett gets it from! Suddenly everything becomes clear. ;)

Kage

baphomael
21-11-2010, 22:05
Assuming that we are going off of the fluff where he is a conglomeration of powerful, Eldar-like psykers (retaining souls/personalities after death) how is the Emperor so powerful?

It obviously isn't the whole emotion/belief Warp-entity power-up since he possessed at least some god-like power(immortality) before he even revealed himself as the Emperor.

Does the merging process have some kind of multiplicative or exponential effect? However, if all it takes is some psychic merging ritual to become that powerful, how come there aren't sorceror covens merging into new warp-entities all the time?

Modern psykers couldnt do that. The reason the Emperor exists at all is Earth's prehistoric shamen realised they wouldnt be able to reincarnate any more when the Chaos Gods woke up - their souls would just get eaten first. So they all pitched together to reincarnate into a single, immortal, body.

If any other psykers tried to pull that off now, with the chaos god's fully concious, all they'd achieve is becoming a buffet for gods and daemons.

Half Breed
21-11-2010, 22:12
Just to throw a spanner in the works, how can he be the reincarnation of thousands of psykers if the total population of Earth in 8000BC was 5 millions? There had to be a difference by several orders of magnitude in the proportion of psykers to non-psykers - in M41 it's one psyker for every million people.

I prefer to think of it as a lower number of psykers, but ones of much greater power. Take a group of powerful psykers; allow them to reincarnate over and over to add to their personal experience and mastery of their abilities, and ta-da - you have the Emperor.

Mabd
21-11-2010, 22:25
When ever a topic turns to the Voltron-Shamen (Shemen?), I can't help but think that the final outcome of their protection of Humanity from the predation of Chaos is:

Epic. Fail.

Son of Sanguinius
21-11-2010, 22:42
When ever a topic turns to the Voltron-Shamen (Shemen?), I can't help but think that the final outcome of their protection of Humanity from the predation of Chaos is:

Epic. Fail.

How do you come to that conclusion?

Kage2020
22-11-2010, 00:20
How do you come to that conclusion?
Perhaps it was the incorrect spelling of the plural of "shaman?" ;)

(I'm being tongue-in-cheek here.)

Kage

MvS
22-11-2010, 00:20
My own personal little theory, or choice (bearing in mind the 'truth' is whatever the next writer gets away with publishing) is that after the New Man was created from the hundreds or thousands of shaman souls, he then went around finding and consuming the souls of other psykers throughout history. Some eneterd the fold willingly, other essentially got eaten, but it was all for the 'geater good' as the New Man / Emperor saw it.

Hence the Emperor grew in power decade by decade throughout the millennia. Hence also the seeming irrationality of some of his decisions - perhaps sometimes his psyche wasn't one harmonious totality...

;)

Kage2020
22-11-2010, 00:34
The Emperor as a psychic vampire? I like it... :D

Kage

Hellebore
22-11-2010, 00:35
Meh, I personally don't think he's as powerful as people think and that the background has been blown out of proportion. Take for example the commonly held fan belief that he 'scared off' the chaos gods when fighting Horus. The actual quote doesn't say that at all.

From my perspective it cheapens the entire setting having a single Win button. 60 million years, more psychic species, Old Ones, but apparently dung tossing primitives on a backwater managed to create a win button? :eyebrows:

Combining souls (psychic or otherwise) together is nothing new and it shouldn't be turned into something beyond its founding concepts. It is just one of many things different species have attempted in the galaxy over the millions of years that life has existed. It doesn't mean the human version is the best, will win, or is anything special. The eldar could have tried it in the 40 millionth year BC, the ork brainboyz may have been one etc.

He's cool, he's fighting against impossible odds and he's still going. I find that far more satisfying than 'he is god and will win in the end'.

Hellebore

Mabd
22-11-2010, 00:36
Perhaps it was the incorrect spelling of the plural of "shaman?" ;)

(I'm being tongue-in-cheek here.)

Kage

heheh. Fine! If you want to be pedantically correct: Shemans. ;) Incidentally, considering pre-civ shamans were allegedly female (as archaeologically concluded in the prolificacy of Dodona Mother Goddess worship - rightly or wrongly...) would that mean the Emperor has an abundance of XX souls? ;) Probably why he could never... actually, probably not a good road to go down. :D


How do you come to that conclusion?

Despite the fact that he's a corpse, and the residual psychic power is slowly failing, and there is no respite for humainty in the GRIM THUGGERY of the far future? It just came to me. :)

Son of Sanguinius
22-11-2010, 00:51
Despite the fact that he's a corpse, and the residual psychic power is slowly failing, and there is no respite for humainty in the GRIM THUGGERY of the far future? It just came to me. :)

I can respond to that by saying they've guided a highly emotional, untrained, unshielded, ignorant species through 42,000 years without letting the species be annihilated or allowing the majority of the species to fall to Chaos.

I don't see how that qualifies as "epic fail", even in tongue in cheek fashion.

And Kage, I take most of your comments as tongue in cheek, you shamelessly witty and mischievous nerd. ;)

Half Breed
22-11-2010, 00:59
Meh, I personally don't think he's as powerful as people think and that the background has been blown out of proportion. Take for example the commonly held fan belief that he 'scared off' the chaos gods when fighting Horus. The actual quote doesn't say that at all.

How powerful do "people" think he is, exactly? The majority of the time I see claims stating that he was a very powerful psyker, which I don't see as being incorrect.


From my perspective it cheapens the entire setting having a single Win button. 60 million years, more psychic species, Old Ones, but apparently dung tossing primitives on a backwater managed to create a win button? :eyebrows:

Humanity's origins shouldn't have any effect on their capability to be powerful psykers. It isn't like Eldar "worked" to become psykers, it was just part of their nature. As humans are slowly becoming a psychic race as a whole, I don't think it's too hard to imagine them as the predominant psychic race in the future.

That being considered, I don't find it a stretch to have an incredibly powerful psychic amongst the human race. Especially when he isn't natural, but instead, is something created out of all of the worlds shamans.


Combining souls (psychic or otherwise) together is nothing new and it shouldn't be turned into something beyond its founding concepts. It is just one of many things different species have attempted in the galaxy over the millions of years that life has existed. It doesn't mean the human version is the best, will win, or is anything special. The eldar could have tried it in the 40 millionth year BC, the ork brainboyz may have been one etc.

Apparently it is special though. As no other species has produced anything as impressive as the Emperor, to the best of my knowledge.


He's cool, he's fighting against impossible odds and he's still going. I find that far more satisfying than 'he is god and will win in the end'.

It depends on how one defines a god. I would consider him a god based upon simple facts, like his immortality, etc. Each persons view will vary, but I see him as valiantly struggling to defend humanity from chaotic / xeno threats, all while being a god. I don't see why you can't have it both ways. This is Warhammer 40k, gods are not infallible or truly eternal in this game, just ask what's left of the Eldar pantheon.

Mabd
22-11-2010, 01:08
Guided to what end? Slow disintegration and domination? Gradual extinction?

So let's take the supposition that the gestalt-Emperor has managed to guide Humanity, like you say, for millenia (paraphrased, obviously) - and let's suppose that it was guided towards the Golden Age of the galaxy being a Human dominion... only for the "Master Plan"™ to go horribly wrong 10,000 years ago (in the future). How can that NOT be an Epic Fail, d'oh, Can I haz Cheezburgr moment?

Now he's totally Deus ex Machina. hahahaha

Kage2020
22-11-2010, 03:22
heheh. Fine! If you want to be pedantically correct: Shemans. ;) Incidentally, considering pre-civ shamans were allegedly female (as archaeologically concluded in the prolificacy of Dodona Mother Goddess worship - rightly or wrongly...) would that mean the Emperor has an abundance of XX souls? ;)
I shake my head in my hands as I sigh at the feminist archaeology. Next you'll be telling me about the unbroken line of celtic druids or something. ;)

Kage

UselessThing
22-11-2010, 03:58
but apparently dung tossing primitives on a backwater managed to create a win button?

Eldar don't buy toy soldiers. Of course the home team are the coolest.

MagosHereticus
22-11-2010, 05:02
if the emperor is so powerful, why did he not go all "dr manhattan" during unification and the great crusade?

Kage2020
22-11-2010, 05:21
Because that would make him a Smurf, and no-one listens to Smurfs.

Errr... :shifty:

Kage

Son of Sanguinius
22-11-2010, 05:34
if the emperor is so powerful, why did he not go all "dr manhattan" during unification and the great crusade?

Can you explain this? I've read Watchmen and I have no idea what you're talking about.

Kage2020
22-11-2010, 05:48
Maybe it was the idea that, as Gauls of the past, the Emperor should have gone... well, tackle out during the Great Crusade. The answer is, of course, that he considered this but then realised that it would have to be renamed the Okay Crusade since, after all, some things should be left mysterious.

:D

Kage

Son of Sanguinius
22-11-2010, 05:59
You just can't help yourself, can you? :)

Half Breed
22-11-2010, 06:07
if the emperor is so powerful, why did he not go all "dr manhattan" during unification and the great crusade?

I'm of the belief that the Emperor was in a weakened state after his creation of the Primarchs. That's why each Primarch seems to represent an aspect of the Emperor himself, because he drained some of his "soul-juice" to create demi-god sons that could spread out and take the universe by force.

That's why you don't see him using mind-bullets to blow apart Horus' ship, etc.

Kage2020
22-11-2010, 06:11
You just can't help yourself, can you? :)
I don't know what you're talking about. :D

And that's a cool idea, Half Breed. Makes me want to go and dig out the various conversations about just what aspect of the Emperor's personality the various Primarchs represented. And then to stat them up in RPG terms since, well, that's how I roll. Or, well, plan to roll. Rolling requires a bit more effort than planning to roll.

Kage

tezdal
22-11-2010, 06:37
I'm of the belief that the Emperor was in a weakened state after his creation of the Primarchs. That's why each Primarch seems to represent an aspect of the Emperor himself, because he drained some of his "soul-juice" to create demi-god sons that could spread out and take the universe by force.

That's why you don't see him using mind-bullets to blow apart Horus' ship, etc.

Hmm...makes me wonder which slice of the Big E's personality Angron got, his love of kittens?

Mabd
22-11-2010, 06:58
I shake my head in my hands as I sigh at the feminist archaeology. Next you'll be telling me about the unbroken line of celtic druids or something. ;)

Kage

Misogynist!!

Well, since you brought it up... ;)

Half Breed
22-11-2010, 07:03
And that's a cool idea, Half Breed. Makes me want to go and dig out the various conversations about just what aspect of the Emperor's personality the various Primarchs represented. And then to stat them up in RPG terms since, well, that's how I roll. Or, well, plan to roll. Rolling requires a bit more effort than planning to roll.

Thanks; I find that it makes much more sense than some of the more official theories. It also can help explain why the Emperor almost seems like he has a split personality when dealing with his "sons", and why he acted the way he did in certain cases - such as holding back from having to destroy Horus. Perhaps it wasn't a "close bond" that stayed his hand, but the reluctance to destroy a part of his power-base.

All kinds of possibilities open up. :D

MagosHereticus
22-11-2010, 07:12
Can you explain this? I've read Watchmen and I have no idea what you're talking about.

dr manhattan had god like powers, he could vaporise whole armies, teleport himself to mars, create huge explosions ect. the emperor was immensely powerful from accounts given in the fluff, yet he never seems to do much with it except for burrowing into the webway and killing horus in mind, body and soul (something that appears to be unique in 40k, in fantasy the sword of khaine is supposedly able to kill gods and the tomb kings possess a blade which kills a mortals soul denying them existence in the afterlife)


I'm of the belief that the Emperor was in a weakened state after his creation of the Primarchs. That's why each Primarch seems to represent an aspect of the Emperor himself, because he drained some of his "soul-juice" to create demi-god sons that could spread out and take the universe by force.

That's why you don't see him using mind-bullets to blow apart Horus' ship, etc.

that's an interesting theory, better than what i had supposed, which was that he didnt want to appear hypocritical using his psychic powers to blow up stars and snuff the life up of millions of enemy soldiers in an instant all the while telling humanity that psychic powers are too dangerous to use for anything more than transmitting messages and navigating the warp

Darkspear
22-11-2010, 07:20
Personally I do not think the Emperor is that powerful. All the awesome fluff that talks of the Emperor being some godlike entity dates back long ago in the early days of rogue trader and warhammer 40k where the universe was Imperium-centric. Which meant that GW has not yet fleshed out the fluff of other races like Eldar, Necrons etc. The 3rd Ed Necron codex talks of the Eldar ruling the galaxy when humans have yet to exist and life on Earth has yet to appear on dry land...I do not see why the primitive human race is able to produce such a powerful being in the future but not the Eldar or Ork.

From the perspective of a player that pick up 40k only from late 3rd- early 4th Edition onwards (and having only read books released from that point onwards), the Emperor seems to be just a gifted psyker who happends to have a PhD (maybe a Nobel prize?)in life sciences.

Death Company
22-11-2010, 07:46
a gifted psyker

Understatement of the year.

In the second Dark Angels Heresy novel they mention how the original astronomicon was just the Emperor; not just him focusing the power of untold numbers of psychic sacrifices as it is now. Can you imagine the psychic might that would be required to maintain that?

I'm always amazed that since he didn't spend his time blowing up planets with his mind he can't be considered powerful. Funny what people consider "power".

MagosHereticus
22-11-2010, 07:49
Personally I do not think the Emperor is that powerful. All the awesome fluff that talks of the Emperor being some godlike entity dates back long ago in the early days of rogue trader and warhammer 40k where the universe was Imperium-centric. Which meant that GW has not yet fleshed out the fluff of other races like Eldar, Necrons etc. The 3rd Ed Necron codex talks of the Eldar ruling the galaxy when humans have yet to exist and life on Earth has yet to appear on dry land...I do not see why the primitive human race is able to produce such a powerful being in the future but not the Eldar or Ork.

From the perspective of a player that pick up 40k only from late 3rd- early 4th Edition onwards (and having only read books released from that point onwards), the Emperor seems to be just a gifted psyker who happends to have a PhD (maybe a Nobel prize?)in life sciences.

and yet alpha level psykers can mind control whole worlds and tear apart battle titans with their mind alone...

the thing is, psychic power is presented as an extremely dangerous and extremely powerful force in the galaxy, such that even moderate psychic power is heavily monitored and restrained (and often eradicated)

so the emperor being the trump of all other human psykers, he should be sufficiently amazing to earn himself that title (and he should have the combined powers from all the different shaman from whom he is made)

MvS
22-11-2010, 08:33
There have been a few ideas on this thread that have really added to my vision of the Emperor.

I still like to think that he is both a gestalt of all the willing psykers who killed themselves waaaay back at the dawn of human civilisation, added to numerous psykers whom the Emperor found throughout human history. I like to think he explained to these troubled beings just why they heard whipsers in their minds, explained the rise of Chaos and its ravenous attraction to humans, and offered a way to be free of it while also living for ever.

Those who accepted had their soul drawn into the Emperor's own super-soul, there to add to the Emperor's already considerable powers and memories. Those who didn't want to join willingly... well I imagine the Emperor just watched them as they began to slide into madness or attracted a daemon or did something dangerous, then just took their souls anyway - hence the reason there don't seem to be references to powerful psykers throughout human history. The Emperor found them all, up until the massive psychic awakening around the time of the Age of Strife

So I see the Emperor as his own miniature Infinity Circuit of sorts.

I also like the idea that the Emperor both divided portions of his soul up in order to make his Primarch sons while also projecting the Astronomican from his mind. This would explain why he could be choked by an Ork warlord during the Great Crusade and had to actually fight his enemies, rather than just annihilate them from afar like Alpha Plus psykers are supposed to be able to do.

If the Emperor did divide portions of his soul off to create his sons, then I would imagine this was just the raw 'stuff' of his soul, plus a large part of those feelings and notions that the Emperor wanted each of them to stand for (loyalty, duty, etc), creating a psychic predilection or imprint on the Primarchs and their future behaviour. This wouldn't include the memories and personalities of the many psykers who formed the Emperor's soul.

I don't see a problem with regarding the Emperor as exceptionally powerful, I just don't buy the Dr Manhatten bit. I mean the Emperor was bound by time, had a physical body and had limits to what he could and could not achieve - particularly it seems during the Great Crusade.

So yes, powerful but without the automatic win button.

MagosHereticus
22-11-2010, 08:47
There have been a few ideas on this thread that have really added to my vision of the Emperor.

I still like to think that he is both a gestalt of all the willing psykers who killed themselves waaaay back at the dawn of human civilisation, added to numerous psykers whom the Emperor found throughout human history. I like to think he explained to these troubled beings just why they heard whipsers in their minds, explained the rise of Chaos and its ravenous attraction to humans, and offered a way to be free of it while also living for ever.

Those who accepted had their soul drawn into the Emperor's own super-soul, there to add to the Emperor's already considerable powers and memories. Those who didn't want to join willingly... well I imagine the Emperor just watched them as they began to slide into madness or attracted a daemon or did something dangerous, then just took their souls anyway - hence the reason there don't seem to be references to powerful psykers throughout human history. The Emperor found them all, up until the massive psychic awakening around the time of the Age of Strife

So I see the Emperor as his own miniature Infinity Circuit of sorts.

I also like the idea that the Emperor both divided portions of his soul up in order to make his Primarch sons while also projecting the Astronomican from his mind. This would explain why he could be choked by an Ork warlord during the Great Crusade and had to actually fight his enemies, rather than just annihilate them from afar like Alpha Plus psykers are supposed to be able to do.

If the Emperor did divide portions of his soul off to create his sons, then I would imagine this was just the raw 'stuff' of his soul, plus a large part of those feelings and notions that the Emperor wanted each of them to stand for (loyalty, duty, etc), creating a psychic predilection or imprint on the Primarchs and their future behaviour. This wouldn't include the memories and personalities of the many psykers who formed the Emperor's soul.

I don't see a problem with regarding the Emperor as exceptionally powerful, I just don't buy the Dr Manhatten bit. I mean the Emperor was bound by time, had a physical body and had limits to what he could and could not achieve - particularly it seems during the Great Crusade.

So yes, powerful but without the automatic win button.

but we never see him exerting himself at his maximum and failing (with respect to the use of psychic power) i mean if psychic feats are like opening particularly difficult jars, where is the jar that even the emperor could not open?

Allen
22-11-2010, 08:50
Probably the Emperor ruled out the "Dr. Manhattan option" because feared that mankind could start revering him as a living god. The Lectitio Divinitatus was an underground cult active even during his life and, to be honest, he did very little to be considered a literal "god". Imagine what would happen if he suddendly decided to go all psychic-like and blast off planets from orbit simply raising one of his eyebrows.

The offensive he was coordinating was not only the military one (the Great Crusade), but also the cultural one: he was actively spreading the Imperial Truth. According to fluff it was a philosophy based on secularity, understanding and tolerance...it was an unprecedented move in the whole history of Mankind. A conqueror that offers an open hand. Probably it was part of a greater plan that (according to fan speculations) should have ligthened the grasp of the Chaos Gods on the human affairs: promoting a balanced, tolerant, god-less culture in the various human enclaves should in theory rob the Chaos Gods of parts of their power. Praising the Emperor (or anyone/everything else, for that matter) as a God should in theory have the same effect, but with the quite problematic ad-on of a new figure in the pantheon of the Immaterium. He didn't want that...it's quite ironic that this happened anyway after his entombment.


EDIT: jeez, sorry for the various errors in the post :(

MvS
22-11-2010, 09:06
As others have said, Alpha Psykers can snap Titans in two with a thought.

The Emperor was certainly an Alpha Psyker at the least, but we have no tales of him just looking down on a planet from his battlebarge and wiping out hordes of aliens with a gesture. He had to fight and fight hard. We're also told about Horus 'saving' the Emperor from an Ork wrlord and so on and on.

For me there must be a reason for these other than to suggest the Emperor didn't want to use his powers fully or because he was all show and little substance. Hence I like the idea that the Astronomican drained a lot of his power and concentration every moment of every day, while the creation of the Primarchs took a huge bite out of his core psychic might.

Xisor
22-11-2010, 09:42
To add in a point, I think we shouldn't understate exactly how powerful we know the Emperor to have been.

1- He sustained an artificial case and penetrated the Webway
2- He wielded the Golden Throne (cref. with the Akashic Reader, the Silver Throne, the Ork Throne)
3- He directed the Astronomican
4- (?) He lends his power to those who have faith in him. (His power is 'stolen' by the faithful?!)
5- Soul binding the Astropaths (if what he did for the primarchs 'depleted' him, what did creating/sustaining a corps of astropaths do!?)

It's a fair step up from Magnus, Ahriman, Zahariel, Mhotep, Malcador and chums.

Other psykers might be raw or even highly nuanced, trained potency but the Emperor was a one-man industry. The scale of his powers, when considered against what others do and achieve, is not something one can really dismiss.

If you look at it in 'RPG' terms, by late in the Crusade, how much of his aggregate might has been siphoned off to others and how much of it is simply invested in sustaining what he's already created? (NB: He's created an Imperium's worth of Astropaths)

MagosHereticus
22-11-2010, 11:43
As others have said, Alpha Psykers can snap Titans in two with a thought.

The Emperor was certainly an Alpha Psyker at the least, but we have no tales of him just looking down on a planet from his battlebarge and wiping out hordes of aliens with a gesture. He had to fight and fight hard. We're also told about Horus 'saving' the Emperor from an Ork wrlord and so on and on.

For me there must be a reason for these other than to suggest the Emperor didn't want to use his powers fully or because he was all show and little substance. Hence I like the idea that the Astronomican drained a lot of his power and concentration every moment of every day, while the creation of the Primarchs took a huge bite out of his core psychic might.

we dont even have him wiping out a single alien with a lightning bolt... the only psychic attack we ever hear of him making is the psychic annihilation of horus, the question is why? i havent read the HH novels starring magnus but does he develop offensive powers?

MvS
22-11-2010, 12:33
I think Xisor has it. The Emperor was an industry.

The single figure walking around and talking to people was just a tip of the iceberg, and a vulnerable one at that. Yes he could push a whole Astartes Legion to its knees with a word, so clearly he was still a psyker par excellence, but I think he must have only expended this sort of power in his day to day governing on rare occasions.

As Xisor and others have pointed out, between all the various psychic endeavours he was supposed to have been running simultaneously, the chap we could actually see and talk to was a fragment of the whole. A fragment that could be killed.

Logan_uc
22-11-2010, 12:50
the emperor is powerful because he is basically a bunch of shamans in on, and he always eats is veggies.

mob16151
22-11-2010, 13:13
Heres a question. With all the different projects the emperor was managing, and with his origin being a collective gestalt of shamans, is it possible the emperor was existing not only in different places, and in different times?

Clockwork-Knight
22-11-2010, 13:38
You know, psychic powers come in different flavors. Just because the emperor might have been the mightiest (human?) psyker doesn't necessarily mean that he also had the ability to teleport, fart lightning and mind-control a quadrillion sentient beings.

His powers might have "only" be limited to foresight, immortality, telepathy, psychic warding and anti-demonic mind-blasting, but he could have been like really really really really good at it...

MvS
22-11-2010, 13:51
True. He could have been an godlike prodigy at some things and just so-so at others.

Hellebore
22-11-2010, 15:00
Well, I've said this several times in threads like this in the past. My opinion of the emperor is the following:

He was created by ignorant if reincarnating proto hominids (some of which lived for millions of years and thus weren't Homo sapiens at all, perhaps A. africanus) for a very narrow purpose - protect their personal, narrow world view of humanity. Humanity was changing, removing itself more from the environment that birthed it. This was leading to disruptions in the Warp, negative emotions etc. Basically it's hippies trying to protect the trees from the capitalists before they actually exist.

So the emperor was a creation for a singular purpose - to protect the 'original' way of life the shamans experienced and humanity was forgetting.

Over the years he attempted to guide humanity back to this 'paradise', perhaps Babylon was one attempt, the myth of Atlantis another. But at every turn he was thwarted by man's imperfection. Avarice and rage and all the other myriad emotions that circled darkly within every human's psyche.

But he was ever attempting to guide humanity back to the one 'true' path, the path he had been created to follow. So over time he changed tactics. He became a godking, he dabbled with religion. He attempted to lead humanity back to their path down any number of different routes, permeatation after permeatation over thousands of years attempting to find the right combination to 'save' humanity.

Over this time the Emperor himself learned. Humanity learned around him and he was taught as much as he trained those around him. He couldn't be everywhere and so ideas he hadn't thought of popped up in small corners of the world. Each culture, each social construct added fuel to his quest. He tried teaching from the shadows, moving parts of the world forward in scientific understanding.

Yet for all his effort, humanity birthed monsters in the warp. Dark reflections of the human psyche began to influence humanity directly. Even after thousands of years the emperor failed to stop humanity's base desires from ruling them.

But after a while, after he had learned far more than his original creation had expected, he discovered the wider galaxy. Humanity was a small insignificant dot in the cosmos. The shamans in their arrogant conservatism had simply wanted to preserve the only way of life they'd known for a thousand generations. But it was obvious humanity would not stay within those bounds. The dangers of the galaxy became apparent to the Emperor. There was more than just the dark tides of the warp poised to threaten mankind.

Alien empires millions of years old spanned the galaxy.

This is where everything started to go wrong. The Emperor went against his original purpose, attempting to protect humanity from the terrors they themselves didn't even know existed. He stretched beyond his original mandate. He was stepping into terra incognita.

So the emperor attempted to mitigate humanity's excesses. They would go into space, but he try to stop them from destroying themselves in the process. Whether humanity needed him or not never really occurred to him - other alien races existed and flourished just fine without an emperor figure in their midst. But he was there and he would try.

However a variable popped in he hadn't considered. Whether caused by cosmic mutation, warp influence or alien treachery, humanity exploded with psykers. These were walking paradoxes, throwing his calculations out of whack. They changed the variables by existing and humanity was thrown into turmoil. Not even the emperor could stop their decline into the age of strife.

By this point the emperor was nearing 38,000 years of age. 38,000 years of failure. He had still not guided humanity along a true path and time was running out.

His final gambit saw him throw caution to the wind and take up the mantle of conquering warlord. No longer in the shadows he would FORCE humanity to comply with his vision. He was tired of waiting. He created war machines of warp and flesh infused with souls from his gestalt. Each epitomised characteristics within him and each would be his voice and fist in every corner of the galaxy.

But of course, this gambit failed. Whether due to interference or simply because the emperor was not used to working with such short time frames, decades rather than millennia, he stumbled. Part of his own soul rebelled against him, aided by the powers he was attempting to thwart.

Weakened, tired and angered beyond measure, the emperor used what little power he had left to destroy that part of his own soul which held his own dark desires. But he was done. He had little strength left and little will to continue.

In the end however he saw hope. His crusade had spread and united humanity across the stars. His species stretched from one side of the galaxy to the other. Even were he to fade away, humanity would continue on, too dispersed to ever be completely exterminated.

This then was enough. Humanity had found its own path and the emperor was content.


Ok so a little (very) purple. But for me, the idea that the Emperor as some objective truth that will save the universe just because, defeats the whole purpose of the setting. In the end Calgar is just a marine, Thraka is just an Ork and Eldrad is just an eldar. They will all die off and the universe won't mourn their passing. To the universe, the emperor is no different. God like psykers had walked the universe millions of years in the past and god like psykers would walk the universe millions of years in the future. If their existence didn't save the universe from itself, why would a soul gestalt out of his tree hugging depth fair any better?

But then, I like 40k as is. Having some god saviour in 40k is like having a serial murderer in the smurfs. People talk about 40k's GRIMDARK setting and yet are happy to accept the emperor as some cosmic chuck norris that will WIN(TM) at everything. I don't find the two a particularly good match.

But that's just my opinion.

IMO

Hellebore

Idaan
22-11-2010, 18:57
Apparently it is special though. As no other species has produced anything as impressive as the Emperor, to the best of my knowledge.


The Old Ones. Especially the only one we've seen in any detail, Qah, is pretty much the God-Emperor of Hrud, immortal being that led them through 59 millions of years of their history and fundamentaly re-engineered their genetic code to adapt them to the post-Enslaver universe.

Also, the Cacodominus that was only mentioned once in the rulebook timeline. He had the population of thousand star systems under continuous mind control and his deathscream made the Astronomican flicker.

Probably lots of other beings in the unexplored history between the end of War in Heaven and the Fall of Eldar.

MarshalFaust
22-11-2010, 19:59
I like he idea that the emperor is not at all what he appears to be, a very high level psyker for sure but more like the wizard of oz. he uses his psychic powers to control others perceptions of himself but in truth he is a very falible, bloodthirsty, ugly little being who may or may not even be of human origin. and who is to say hes as old as he claims? maybe hes only really as old as he was when he rose to power during the unification wars.

Charlie Scene
22-11-2010, 21:02
The Old Ones. Especially the only one we've seen in any detail, Qah, is pretty much the God-Emperor of Hrud, immortal being that led them through 59 millions of years of their history and fundamentaly re-engineered their genetic code to adapt them to the post-Enslaver universe.

Which source is it that specifically mentions Qah as being an old one? Care to share?


Also, the Cacodominus that was only mentioned once in the rulebook timeline. He had the population of thousand star systems under continuous mind control and his deathscream made the Astronomican flicker.

He mind-controlled large amounts of humanity, so what? Where are you going with this?


Probably lots of other beings in the unexplored history between the end of War in Heaven and the Fall of Eldar.

"Well, it's possible". Stellar argument.

Half Breed
22-11-2010, 21:26
The Old Ones. Especially the only one we've seen in any detail, Qah, is pretty much the God-Emperor of Hrud, immortal being that led them through 59 millions of years of their history and fundamentaly re-engineered their genetic code to adapt them to the post-Enslaver universe.

The Old Ones were bested by the Necrons; even with the aid of their "meat shield" creations like the Eldar and Orks. I wouldn't cite them as the greatest examples of power.


Also, the Cacodominus that was only mentioned once in the rulebook timeline. He had the population of thousand star systems under continuous mind control and his deathscream made the Astronomican flicker.

What case does this make against the Emperor? His ability to control several worlds at a time is impressive, but only shows more proof of the absurdly high power levels a human can attain. This makes my case for me.


Probably lots of other beings in the unexplored history between the end of War in Heaven and the Fall of Eldar.

That's being a bit vague for a discussion. Anything is possible, that doesn't make it a very excellent stance to debate from.

Idaan
22-11-2010, 21:37
Which source is it that specifically mentions Qah as being an old one? Care to share?
The only source he appears in, "Xenology".


He mind-controlled large amounts of humanity, so what? Where are you going with this?You wanted something that was on comparable level of impressiveness as the Emperor. The Imperium has a population of 14-75 quadrillion spread over 1 million worlds. So the Cacodominus controlled at least 1/1000th of that - I'd say having 14 -75 trillion people simultaneously under mind control is pretty impressive.



"Well, it's possible". Stellar argument.That wasn't an argument. That was an implication that if one pre-Neolithic society could figure it out, chances are that one of the millions of other races, most of them significantly more advanced technologically and gifted with stronger warp presences also figured it out at some point.
There's just no evidence of them left. In a million years there will be no evidence of the Emperor as well.


What case does this make against the Emperor? His ability to control several worlds at a time is impressive, but only shows more proof of the absurdly high power levels a human can attain. This makes my case for me.Not human.

(...)Black Templar Space Marines end the Catelexis Heresy by executing the Cacodominus, an alien cyborg(...)

Grimstonefire
22-11-2010, 21:55
Probably the Emperor ruled out the "Dr. Manhattan option" because feared that mankind could start revering him as a living god. The Lectitio Divinitatus was an underground cult active even during his life and, to be honest, he did very little to be considered a literal "god".

Sorry for my 40k ignorance, but my understanding is that the Emperor is a god (now) anyway.

Going by WH logic, mortals like Sigmar and Grimnir became gods because people worshiped them as such.

So would it not have made the Emperor stronger in the earlier years for him to be worshiped as a god?

Half Breed
22-11-2010, 22:24
Not human.

An "alien cyborg" psyker.. my god, it's like a writer for the Power Rangers stumbled into 40K. Aside from being atrocious to even acknowledge, I still don't think they're comparable. Sure, it's impressive.. but in comparison to the Emperor? No.

So he made the lights flicker and controlled some human-beings. That's not striking me as close to the Emperor's exploits.

Hellebore
22-11-2010, 22:33
An "alien cyborg" psyker.. my god, it's like a writer for the Power Rangers stumbled into 40K. Aside from being atrocious to even acknowledge, I still don't think they're comparable. Sure, it's impressive.. but in comparison to the Emperor? No.

So he made the lights flicker and controlled some human-beings. That's not striking me as close to the Emperor's exploits.

Umm what exploits would those be? Making the astronomicon? That's a beam of warp energy shot out in all directions. It might take a lot of 'power' to run, but it isn't exactly complicated.

Controlling the minds of billions of humans simultaneously across multiple star systems? Where has the emperor performed something that intricate?

Hellebore

Half Breed
22-11-2010, 22:48
Umm what exploits would those be? Making the astronomicon? That's a beam of warp energy shot out in all directions. It might take a lot of 'power' to run, but it isn't exactly complicated.

Controlling the minds of billions of humans simultaneously across multiple star systems? Where has the emperor performed something that intricate?

Fighting the Ruinous Powers as they inhabited his demi-god son.

(Possibly) Beating down the C'tan deity, the Void Dragon, imprisoning him, and using him as inspiration for the ad-mech.

Being the astronomicon, a signal flare of psychic might so powerful you can actually use it as navigation.

Creating the Primarch's, who were essentially demi-gods; and if the Emperor bested those who were stubborn to accept his dominance, such as Ferrus Manus, and Leman Russ, we can only assume he's more powerful than them.

These things are much more impressive to me than mind-controlling the "primitive" humans you were just going on about.. I imagine I'm wasting time discussing this with you though, Hellebore, as you're incredibly biased against the Emperor.

Spare Change
22-11-2010, 22:52
You can question the source, as it's said by a demon, but that being said:

Be careful, Argel Tal. These souls remain blind to you as long as you do not interfere with their work.
'And if I did?' he asked quietly.
Then one of the most powerful psychic forces in the history of life would be alerted to you, and would kill you where you stand. You are within the Anathema's inner-most sanctum. Here, it breeds its spawn.


That's being said in regards to the Emperor.

Clockwork-Knight
23-11-2010, 00:04
Who can say that creating the astronomican is more impressive than mind-controlling several billion humans at the same time?

All we know for sure is that the emperor never did it, for whatever reason. The most logical being that he never was able to do it in the first place, as not all psykers have the same powers.

Hellebore
23-11-2010, 00:07
Fighting the Ruinous Powers as they inhabited his demi-god son.


Incorrect. Read the original quote from the realms of chaos books and you'll see that's not what happened at all.



Being the astronomicon, a signal flare of psychic might so powerful you can actually use it as navigation.


As I said powerful. Not paticularly skillful. It's lots of power pumped out in all directions.



Creating the Primarch's, who were essentially demi-gods; and if the Emperor bested those who were stubborn to accept his dominance, such as Ferrus Manus, and Leman Russ, we can only assume he's more powerful than them.


Creating biological entities powered by the warp. Like wraithlords/guard or trapping a daemon in a living thing. Or even a powerful biomancy psyker that can modify their body into something uber, using warp energy. He engineered them. Using science. Your application of the term 'demigod' is disingenuous. They are still flesh and blood and many died. The same cannot be said for a phoenix lord which was just a particularly strong willed eldar soul. A primarch is analogous to a powerful psyker with their biomancy switch stuck to the ON position with no ability to turn it off or any risk in using it.

So contextually, not so 'demigod' as you claim. The Primarchs were very powerful biological entities the emperor infused with warp power. This in and of itself, much like the fact that the emperor was several thousand psyker souls stuck together, is not a particularly impressive or powerful concept. The 40k universe is littered with these things. Every infinity circuit is like an Emperor made from more potent eldar souls. Every Exarch and Phoenix Lord is like an Emperor within a armoured battleshell.

None of the things that went into these individuals is supported by 40k background as being awesome BEYOND everything else. The Old Ones could manipulate the warp itself, rather than just its energy. The emperor is still a psyker.

For every thing that went into the Emperor and the primarchs there is precedent for it within 40k. So unless eldar infinity circuits are of a similar power to the emperor (they will have far more souls in them than the emperor) you cannot claim the emperor is a supergod. Until you can find something in his origin or background that does not exist anywhere else in 40k



These things are much more impressive to me than mind-controlling the "primitive" humans you were just going on about.. I imagine I'm wasting time discussing this with you though, Hellebore, as you're incredibly biased against the Emperor.

So pumping out lots of warp energy in all directions is more impressive than being able to individually control the minds of billions of people simultaneously? More impressive in terms of power output perhaps, but hardly in terms of skill or finesse.

Read the sources regarding Horus and the chaos gods, and you'll see that as I said previously, the idea he scared them off or fought them all simultaneously on an even footing is incorrect. This fallacious reasoning is propagated in order to support a position about the emperor that the background never actually says.

Hellebore

Half Breed
23-11-2010, 00:29
Incorrect. Read the original quote from the realms of chaos books and you'll see that's not what happened at all.

The Ruinous Powers leave before Horus is slain, this shows that they're there in one sense or another, even if it's watching their war-bolstered champion do combat. The fact that four "deities" are watching this prize fight says volumes about the Emperor.


As I said powerful. Not paticularly skillful. It's lots of power pumped out in all directions.

Derp. Where exactly did anyone make the claim that he was an incredibly skilled psyker? We're talking about his power level.


Creating biological entities powered by the warp. Like wraithlords/guard or trapping a daemon in a living thing. He engineered them. Using science. Your application of the term 'demigod' is disingenuous. They are still flesh and blood and many died. The same cannot be said for a phoenix lord which was just a particularly strong willed eldar soul.

Ferrus Manus choked a wyrm comprised of living metal to death under a stream of lava.

Fulgrim crushed an Avatar of Khaines throat.

These are not normal men. Demi-gods are not an absurd claim to make of them; and the "many" who died, all died to fellow Primarch's or allowed themselves to be killed. Stop twisting facts to suit your argument, Hellebore.


So contextually, not so 'demigod' as you claim. The Primarchs were very powerful biological entities the emperor infused with warp power. This in and of itself, much like the fact that the emperor was several thousand psyker souls stuck together, is not a particularly impressive or powerful concept. The 40k universe is littered with these things. Every infinity circuit is like an Emperor made from more potent eldar souls. Every Exarch and Phoenix Lord is like an Emperor within a armoured battleshell.

I never claimed they were unique, special snowflakes. They are however top-tier examples.


None of the things that went into these individuals is supported by 40k background as being particularly awesome. The Old Ones could manipulate the warp itself, rather than just its energy. The emperor is still a psyker.

Where does it say that they could manipulate the warp itself? Mind citing the quote?


So pumping out lots of warp energy in all directions is more impressive than being able to individually control the minds of billions of people simultaneously? More impressive in terms of power output perhaps, but hardly in terms of skill or finesse.

We aren't talking about finesse, Hellebore. We're talking about sheer power. Something which the Emperor clearly had more of, regardless of the possible inability by him to use it as skillfully as a xeno.


Read the sources regarding Horus and the chaos gods, and you'll see that as I said previously, the idea he scared them off or fought them all simultaneously on an even footing is incorrect. This fallacious reasoning is propagated in order to support a position about the emperor that the background never actually says.

You seem pretty hung up on this, to the point you sound like a broken record. I never claimed he "made them flee", stop venting your angst in discussions where it doesn't belong.

Argue the points I make or not at all.

Lord_Crull
23-11-2010, 00:45
Ferrus Manus choked a wyrm comprised of living metal to death under a stream of lava.


If we believe Index Astartes: Night Lords, then it's possible that Curze climbed out of the molten core of Nostramo as a baby.

Half Breed
23-11-2010, 00:47
If we believe Index Astartes: Night Lords, then it's possible that Curze climbed out of the molten core of Nostramo as a baby.

That's exactly my point, man! :D

The Primarch's were legendary super-humans. Astartes are like children before their wrath, and we all know how nasty Marines are.

I think it's ludicrous that Hellebore seem to believe they're run-of-the-mill.

"Nothing special here folks, just a demi-god choking a Necron construct to death in a bed of lava."

Lord_Crull
23-11-2010, 00:50
That's exactly my point, man! :D

The Primarch's were legendary super-humans. Astartes are like children before their wrath, and we all know how nasty Marines are.

I think it's ludicrous that Hellebore seem to believe they're run-of-the-mill.

"Nothing special here folks, just a demi-god choking a Necron construct to death in a bed of lava."

I don't really want to get too involved in this discussion. However we are comparing Phoenix Lords and Exarchs to Primarchs? Did't an Exarch get killed by a Marine Sergant in Path of the Warrior along with a Phoenix Lord being defeated by a Dreadnought?

Hellebore
23-11-2010, 01:01
The Ruinous Powers leave before Horus is slain, this shows that they're there in one sense or another, even if it's watching their war-bolstered champion do combat. The fact that four "deities" are watching this prize fight says volumes about the Emperor.


They don't 'leave him' they retract their gifts. You tell me to argue against YOUR arguments, well you CLAIM the chaos gods inhabited Horus. They didn't.



Derp. Where exactly did anyone make the claim that he was an incredibly skilled psyker? We're talking about his power level.


We are actually arguing the term 'more impressive' that you use here:


These things are much more impressive to me than mind-controlling the "primitive" humans you were just going on about.


A display of power isn't as impressive as the skill AND power to control billions of sentient minds across thousands of light years of space at the same time.



Ferrus Manus choked a wyrm comprised of living metal to death under a stream of lava.

Fulgrim crushed an Avatar of Khaines throat.


As any psyker with biomancy mastery could do as well. These aren't indestructible entities afterall, Calgar killed an avatar with a relic powerfist.



These are not normal men. Demi-gods are not an absurd claim to make of them; and the "many" who died, all died to fellow Primarch's or allowed themselves to be killed. Stop twisting facts to suit your argument, Hellebore.


Perhaps you should practice what you preach? I never said they were 'normal men' AT ALL. You're making a straw man out of my argument.

Do you think that a primarch would survive being hit by an orbital lance? Fulgrim's hand got melted by the avatar's heat. If that will burn him, then a ship lance would incinerate him. They are not demi gods in any sense of the term.



Where does it say that they could manipulate the warp itself? Mind citing the quote?


Page 24 of the necron codex says that the old ones could "manipulate alternate dimensions" and performed great feats of psychic engineering. One example given was the proto webway. They also managed to manipulate the warp without disturbing it. It wasn't until the young races appeared that the warp was thrown into turmoil.

EDIT: I never said the primarchs weren't powerful. So strawmaning my argument with terms like 'run of the mill' is just silly. What I actually said was that the primarchs and the emperor as entities are not composed of any FACTS in the 40k universe that are unique. Soul gestalts exist, warp powered entities exist. That the primarchs and emperor are formed from preexisting concepts within 40k doesn't make them less powerful, it just makes them less UNIQUE. The two aren't the same thing at all.

What I am saying is that asigning powers beyond what those preexisting concepts already produce to the emperor to make him more uber is false. For every argument that says the emperor could do X I can say the same for any other soul gestalt in 40k, of which there are plenty.

Hellebore

Lord_Crull
23-11-2010, 01:07
Fulgrim's hand got melted by the avatar's heat. If that will burn him, then a ship lance would incinerate him.

That was one of the issues that I had with the fight. Going by Index Astartes Fulgrim should not have even gotten singed, much less burnt by mere lava. Plus Terminator armor was made to operate inside plasma reactors. I would expect the armor of a Primarch to be at least as good as Terminator armor, if not vastly better. The Avatar's molten form should have not bothered Fulgrim in the least.

(In fact I recall an ork warboss being dropped in some lava in Death World and surviving. Although it's been awhile since I've read that book though)


They are not demi gods in any sense of the term.


If even half of the stories we hear about Primarchs is true then they could considered to be demigods.

Half Breed
23-11-2010, 01:12
They don't 'leave him' they retract their gifts. You tell me to argue against YOUR arguments, well you CLAIM the chaos gods inhabited Horus. They didn't.

CAPS, I'M ANGRY NOW. :rolleyes:

I claimed he did combat with the Ruinous Powers, which he did. They grant Horus shares of their power to do battle with the Emperor - that's as good as fighting him themselves. The fact they would need to bolster a Primarch to defeat the Emperor in the first place says a lot.


We are actually arguing the term 'more impressive' that you use here:

A display of power isn't as impressive as the skill AND power to control billions of sentient minds across thousands of light years of space at the same time.

In your opinion, perhaps. Please don't assume you speak for everyone.

The fact the Emperor had more sheer power suggests that he could accomplish something even more incredible, he just didn't have the mastery of his powers.

That is more impressive to me.


As any psyker with biomancy mastery could do as well. These aren't indestructible entities afterall, Calgar killed an avatar with a relic powerfist.

You cannot even begin to make that claim, when we know so little about the wyrm.

As for Calgar, yes - he did break an Avatars shell using a dark-age-tech relic weapon, whereas Fulgrim used his hands. Slight difference.


Perhaps you should practice what you preach? I never said they were 'normal men' AT ALL. You're making a straw man out of my argument.

How so? You say it's absurd to call them demi-gods and compare them to mundane things like wraithguard. You're clearly of the opinion that they're not very extraordinary, or you're uninformed in regards to the power of a wraithguard.


Do you think that a primarch would survive being hit by an orbital lance? Fulgrim's hand got melted by the avatar's heat. If that will burn him, then a ship lance would incinerate him. They are not demi gods in any sense of the term.

I wonder if you're aware of what defines a demi-god. Invulnerability does not a god make.


Page 24 of the necron codex says that the old ones could "manipulate alternate dimensions" and performed great feats of psychic engineering. One example given was the proto webway. They also managed to manipulate the warp without disturbing it. It wasn't until the young races appeared that the warp was thrown into turmoil.

They created the webway and had the technology to traverse the warp, this isn't somehow special, nor unique to the Old Ones.

MvS
23-11-2010, 01:21
Half Breed: I think it's the tone of what you write. Be less confrontational/impolite and you'll be amazed how far you can take your arguments (if you'll pardon me for saying).

Hellebore
23-11-2010, 01:22
CAPS, I'M ANGRY NOW. :rolleyes:

I claimed he did combat with the Ruinous Powers, which he did. They grant Horus shares of their power to do battle with the Emperor - that's as good as fighting him themselves. The fact they would need to bolster a Primarch to defeat the Emperor in the first place says a lot.


CAPs for emphasis. By your argument any individual that is marked by chaos is 'as good as the god fighting themself'. Horus was marked as the ultimate champion of chaos, as Abaddon currently is.



You cannot even begin to make that claim, when we know so little about the wyrm.

As for Calgar, yes - he did break an Avatars shell using a dark-age-tech relic weapon, whereas Fulgrim used his hands. Slight difference.


C'tan are killable. A necron robot is also killable. This wyrm is also killable. It was killed with lava. A half dozen lascannons produce more energy than lava (at least on the points of contact). Molten rock has an average temperature of 700 °C to 1,200 °C. Lascannons can melt through steel. Steel has a higher melting point than this.

A human using biomancy to produce a Hammerhand can also punch through a molten shell.



How so? You say it's absurd to call them demi-gods and compare them to mundane things like wraithguard. You're clearly of the opinion that they're not very extraordinary, or you're uninformed in regards to the power of a wraithlord.


I compare them functionally to wraithguard and psykers using biomancy because that is functionally what they are.

Is the power of a star extraordinary? Would its use be considered amazing? There are trillions of stars in the universe. Is a star's power less extraordinary simply because there are lots of them? Or is it that their power is extraordinary but also extremely common?

A biological entity given warp power is what the primarchs are. Being given the title primarch does not let them ignore the facts of biology and warp power. A biological entity powered by the warp.



They created the webway and had the technology to traverse the warp, this isn't somehow special, and unique to the Old Ones.

They could also manipulate dimensions and used the warp without ever creating chaos gods or any turmoil. This only appeared after their creations' emotions imperfectly affected the warp.

And yes, Old Ones aren't unique. That's the point. These are features built into the 40k universe.

Hellebore

UselessThing
23-11-2010, 01:31
I'd still find it more than a little odd if Humans weren't something special, given that everyone who consumes the product is one.

Whether they like it or not :-P

Half Breed
23-11-2010, 01:37
Half Breed: I think it's the tone of what you write. Be less confrontational/impolite and you'll be amazed how far you can take your arguments (if you'll pardon me for saying).

You're right, MvS. I'm afraid I was predisposed to an aggressive stance when dealing with Hellebore. His natural bias towards the Imperium, well actually, anything not Eldar, lead me to take a more harsh tone than is probably needed.

It's like discussing politics or religion. It's good to raise my post count, but little else. :D

That said, Hellebore, any points I've made are conceded. I'm not going to argue the color of the sky with a blind man.

Son of Sanguinius
23-11-2010, 01:41
I'd still find it more than a little odd if Humans weren't something special, given that everyone who consumes the product is one.

Whether they like it or not :-P

Humanity is special because those beings that feed on it are special?

What? :eyebrows:

Son of Sanguinius
23-11-2010, 01:44
I'm not going to argue the color of the sky with a blind man.

Just because you were unable to convince him of your point doesn't mean that you're correct or he's blind. It's comments like these that take an involved debate into the realm of rudeness.

Half Breed
23-11-2010, 01:45
Humanity is special because those beings that feed on it are special?

What? :eyebrows:

He means the product, ya know, Warhammer. ;)

Hellebore
23-11-2010, 01:46
You're right, MvS. I'm afraid I was predisposed to an aggressive stance when dealing with Hellebore. His natural bias towards the Imperium, well actually, anything not Eldar, lead me to take a more harsh tone than is probably needed.

It's like discussing politics or religion. It's good to raise my post count, but little else. :D

That said, Hellebore, any points I've made are conceded. I'm not going to argue the color of the sky with a blind man.

See my reply to Uselessthing. A claim of bias on my part is an ad hominem and not an argument against my argument.

I have countered your points. You resort to 'well you're biased anyway'. Unless you can show me HOW a warp powered biological creature like a primarch is what you claim, rather than just saying they are, you don't have an argument.

I've never claimed they aren't powerful, or amazing. Just that when you look at the underlying principles that form them you see that there is nothing unique.

If there was something like 'primarchs have supergoo added to their makeup' where supergoo allows them to ignore the metaphysics of the 40k universe then that's fine.

But currently we know they are biological. We understand biology. We know they are powered by the warp. We understand how warp energy works and what it can do. There are precedents for all of these.

Hellebore

Half Breed
23-11-2010, 01:47
Just because you were unable to convince him of your point doesn't mean that you're correct or he's blind. It's comments like these that take an involved debate into the realm of rudeness.

Arguing a point with a person who shows a blatant bias against your stance is the equivalent of doing exactly what I said; regardless of if you consider said analogy offensive or not.

Half Breed
23-11-2010, 01:49
I have countered your points. You resort to 'well you're biased anyway'. Unless you can show me HOW a warp powered biological creature like a primarch is what you claim, rather than just saying they are, you don't have an argument.

No, you haven't actually. As is your typical performance, you pick and choose what you reply to. Regardless, I already bowed out of this chat.

You "win", Hellebore. Calm down, buddy.

Son of Sanguinius
23-11-2010, 01:51
Arguing a point with a person who shows a blatant bias against your stance is the equivalent of doing exactly what I said; regardless of if you consider said analogy offensive or not.

It becomes offensive because you assume the right to judge his perspective as biased and then dismiss his arguments on those grounds. Then you call him blind, figuratively or otherwise.

I've read all of the posts in this thread, and from my perspective, he's been logical and clear, displaying no more bias than anyone else here.

"Bias" is not a prerequisite for disagreement with your position.

Death Company
23-11-2010, 01:52
To paraphrase Yahtzee, some people spend far to long gargling lembas and cursing the unpointedness of their ears.

What are you, some kinda species traitor?

I just got a mental picture of Hellebore wearing plastic elf-ears while furiously typing replies to any who oppose the Eldar empire, hahaha. :D

Hellebore
23-11-2010, 01:54
I just got a mental picture of Hellebore wearing plastic elf-ears while furiously typing replies to any who oppose the Eldar empire, hahaha. :D

Plastic is sooo uncouth. I prefer latex, or perhaps ears made from the skin of baby monkeigh. So smooth.:shifty:

Hellebore

Mánagarmr
23-11-2010, 01:56
The All-Father bested Russ in an honor duel, that makes him leagues ahead of any xeno filth. :D

MvS
23-11-2010, 02:02
Plastic is sooo uncouth. I prefer latex, or perhaps ears made from the skin of baby monkeigh. So smooth
I don't say this often enough Hellebore - although maybe saying it even once is once too many - but I love you.

I really do. ;)

Codsticker
23-11-2010, 02:40
Please, do not allow disagreements to devolve into posting in an insulting and disrespectful manner, otherwise this thread will be locked and Warnings may be issued.

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad

Hellebore
23-11-2010, 08:12
I don't say this often enough Hellebore - although maybe saying it even once is once too many - but I love you.

I really do. ;)

We need more love in the world. You can never have too much (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Slaanesh) love...

Hellebore

merghmer
24-11-2010, 00:06
Hmmm.......its clear to me that Hellebore is wrong.

1) The Emperor is at once both one of the most powerful and skilled psykers in the 40k universe - past or present. Maintaining the Astronomican is a massive feat, even the so-called "superior" Psykers, the Eldar are unable to maintain such an undertaking. Without the webway (which btw, they ripped off from the Old Ones), they will be unable to maintain FTL travel.

It may or may not be very skillful to maintain but you definitely need a skilled Astropath to navigate by its flickering light - especially at the outer reaches, and the Emperor created the Astropaths.

2) The Primarchs are demi-gods. That you even want to debate it is ludicrous. Demi-gods CAN die. Ask the C'taan, almost all of whom are dead save a handful.

That a few Primarchs have expired - all killed by fellow Primarchs, suicide, or holding off an entire invasion fleet single-handedly - does not make them any less worthy.

3) The Primarchs are at least the equal of the C'taan and better than Greater Daemons. Not only are they supermen - they can maintain psychic links and can pass on certain traits to their progeny.

Nowhere is this link more clear than in the BA - where the Red Thirst is a psychic manifestation of Sanguinius' placing loyalty over death at the gates of the Palace of Terra. The Sanguinator could possibly be a psychic imprint of the dead Primarch - his loyalty temporarily breaking the bonds of the material world to manifest via one of his sons in a critical time.

This same link is also prevalent in other legions - which would explain why the chapters of the "Cursed Founding" had strong inclination to turn to Chaos, despite being raised in a insanely loyal Imperium. Their Primarchs still exerted an influence on them - many from beyond the Grave.

Nothing in the 40k Universe comes close. Certainly other factions may have characters that are as powerful (combat-wise) as a Primarch. But practically none with such psychic power and legacy. You claim a Primarch is just "another" web construct. I'd like to see a Phoenix Lord or a Greater Daemon with such abilities.

4) Now the Emperor created these demi-gods, and bested most of them. Calling him unskilled is a joke, surely.

Who else in the 40k Universe can create demi-gods? The Ruinous Powers, certainly - and they are indeed very powerful and skilled.

By comparison Eldar Infinity Circuits are laughably pathetic. Sure, they are potentially more powerful than the Emperor or even anything barring the Chaos Gods. BUT potential does not equal actual power, and they are certainly unskilled - they do nothing more than sleep, until awakened one by one to be placed in wraithguard or lords.

In fact, a single Zoat overloaded an entire craftworlds IC, disabling all the defences and allowing the world to be slaughtered by the Tyranids.

FWIW, I think an average Eldar is certainly more powerful psychically than a human. Much more in fact. However, Human Alphas are probably more powerful than any Eldar available, as the Eldar restrict their own psychic potential via Paths or intentionally restricting it (DE).

Humans have fewer boundaries, thus are more inclined to fall to Chaos, and don't have the skill of individual Eldar farseers or Bonesingers, but then again, how many Farseers or Autarchs can split Titans in two with their minds?

Hellebore
24-11-2010, 00:53
Hmmm.......its clear to me that Hellebore is wrong.

1) The Emperor is at once both one of the most powerful and skilled psykers in the 40k universe - past or present. Maintaining the Astronomican is a massive feat, even the so-called "superior" Psykers, the Eldar are unable to maintain such an undertaking. Without the webway (which btw, they ripped off from the Old Ones), they will be unable to maintain FTL travel.


The astronomicon helps warp travel, it isn't necessary for warp travel. Humanity functioned just fine without it. The eldar never needed one because the had the webway. Whether they could create one or not is unknown because they've never needed to use one.



It may or may not be very skillful to maintain but you definitely need a skilled Astropath to navigate by its flickering light - especially at the outer reaches, and the Emperor created the Astropaths.


The Navigators use it to nagivate. And they were not created by the emperor. There is no evidence that he made them. They existed before or during the Age of Strife before the Emperor revealed himself. They have a mutation, the 'navigator gene' which they can use to 'find their way' in the warp. The astronomicon makes it easier because it is a point of reference, like using stars in the sky.

There have been instances where other aliens have used the astronomicon to navigate (albiet roughly) by. It isn't on the 'human' wavelength, it's just a massive lighthouse shining indiscriminately into the warp in all directions.



2) The Primarchs are demi-gods. That you even want to debate it is ludicrous. Demi-gods CAN die. Ask the C'taan, almost all of whom are dead save a handful.

That a few Primarchs have expired - all killed by fellow Primarchs, suicide, or holding off an entire invasion fleet single-handedly - does not make them any less worthy.


Never said they were 'less worthy'. What I SAID and CONTINUE to say is that their makeup is not unique in the scheme of 40k. Biology + warp is not a special snowflake in 40k. They are biology + warp. So if you want to assign them special powers at odds with their creation, you have to allow the same thing for other 'biology + warp' entities.

Just because they're called primarchs and the emperor made them doesn't mean they get to ignore what they were made from.



3) The Primarchs are at least the equal of the C'taan and better than Greater Daemons. Not only are they supermen - they can maintain psychic links and can pass on certain traits to their progeny.

Nowhere is this link more clear than in the BA - where the Red Thirst is a psychic manifestation of Sanguinius' placing loyalty over death at the gates of the Palace of Terra. The Sanguinator could possibly be a psychic imprint of the dead Primarch - his loyalty temporarily breaking the bonds of the material world to manifest via one of his sons in a critical time.

This same link is also prevalent in other legions - which would explain why the chapters of the "Cursed Founding" had strong inclination to turn to Chaos, despite being raised in a insanely loyal Imperium. Their Primarchs still exerted an influence on them - many from beyond the Grave.


Being 'equal' to a C'tan is conjecture on your part. C'tan can eat stars. Can primarchs eat stars?:p In reality, a C'tan is far beyond a primarch given what we know of their construction. C'tan are energy, primarchs matter. It's much easier to deconstruct matter than it is to muck about with energy.

We know that Sanguinius and Fulgrim are capable of fighting greater daemons. We know also that Sanguinius was defeated by a blood thirster (quite badly, had his back/legs broken) before he was able to overcome it.

Maintaining psychic links isn't hard. Telepathy is a basic school of psychic power.

The real trick is that their warp power has actually imprinted something into the geneseed they receive from their primarchs. So when they get that geneseed it has a psychic 'echo' from their primarch.



Nothing in the 40k Universe comes close. Certainly other factions may have characters that are as powerful (combat-wise) as a Primarch. But practically none with such psychic power and legacy. You claim a Primarch is just "another" web construct. I'd like to see a Phoenix Lord or a Greater Daemon with such abilities.

This actually happens with all psychic beings to lesser or greater degrees. Psykers with sufficient skill can read the psychic imprints of an area to get an idea of what happened there in the past. The warp can corrupt in a similar fashion. Imprinting into organisms and producing mutant species that pass on that effect every generation.

'web construct?' I claimed no such thing. I said they were analagous to a wraithguard/lord in function or a biomancer psyker with their biomancy skills switched to 'ON' permanently. A phoenix lord is actually like the emperor rather than a primarch in terms of construction. If you wish to construe that as me claiming a phoenix lord to be the equivalent of the emperor then that's your perogative.

Greater Deamons, being warp entities, do have the ability to 'corrupt' organisms and have that pass down. They act as amplifiers of the emotions their gods feed on. Being in the presence of a Keeper of Secrets is a corrupting effect. I use the term 'corrupting' abstractly, I use it to reflect psychic/warp manipulation of organisms. Some of the primarchs deliberately or accidently 'corrupted' their genome and passed that to anyone that receives it. It's not bad, it's just functionally the same as any warp effect, just far more concentrated and specialised, as the primarchs are.



4) Now the Emperor created these demi-gods, and bested most of them. Calling him unskilled is a joke, surely.


Half Breed called the Emperor unskilled as an argument against the Caccodominus being impressive. Saying that although the Caccodominus might have more skill in being able to control billions of human minds across hundreds of lightyears it didn't make it more impressive or powerful than the emperor.

I personally don't think the emperor is unskilled in his vocation, if I've said that in the past then I retract that. What I did say is that although the astronomicon is a good example of the emperor's power, it isn't a good example of skill because it's a very basic albiet power intensive process. Psykers have to learn NOT to broadcast; broadcasting itself is an innate thing everyone does.



Who else in the 40k Universe can create demi-gods? The Ruinous Powers, certainly - and they are indeed very powerful and skilled.


Please stop arguing from 'demi gods'. It doesn't mean anything - you've already said that being a demi god doesn't mean you can't get killed etc. The term demi god does not say anything. It's a loaded term that implies meaning where there isn't any.

The primarchs are in 40k biologically human (engineered obviously) and have a powerful warp link. THAT is what they objectively are. If THAT is what a 'demi god' is, then all psykers are differing levels of 'demi god'.

Demi god is not a thing in 40k that you can measure. Therefore, talking about things in these terms is meaningless.

Your question should be 'who can create biological entities that can contain large amounts of warp power?' As that is what a primarch actually is.

The answer is, not many. The emperor's prowess was in figuring out how to prevent such large amounts of warp power from destroying the host body. His genius was in genetic engineering. He managed to produce biological matter that didn't decay under the pressure of warp energy. The eldar have a similar thing, but it's pseudo inorganic (as much as something called a 'psycho plastic' is inorganic). Wraithbone and its relatives perform the same function, but they aren't biological tissue. Alpha psykers channel so much warp power that they quickly disintegrate.

Now here is a question. If as people often cite, alpha+ psykers can crush titans with their mind and thus so could the emperor, does that mean that an alpha psyker could crush a primarch with their mind? If their flesh is still susceptible to damage and their bones to being broken, then the amount of force required to break an adamantium titan should be at least enough to kill a primarch.

Not even the emperor created what the chaos gods create - even the smallest daemon is a being of pure warp energy. The emperor wasn't able to make the primarchs as pure warp energy beings that could manifest in the real world. They still required vessels to exist within.




By comparison Eldar Infinity Circuits are laughably pathetic. Sure, they are potentially more powerful than the Emperor or even anything barring the Chaos Gods. BUT potential does not equal actual power, and they are certainly unskilled - they do nothing more than sleep, until awakened one by one to be placed in wraithguard or lords.

In fact, a single Zoat overloaded an entire craftworlds IC, disabling all the defences and allowing the world to be slaughtered by the Tyranids.

The infinity circuit acts as a communications system and power conduit. Eldar talk to the dead and get advice from them within that circuit. They are certainly not all asleep. Eldar souls retain consciousness after death. Being unconscious after death would sort of negate that ability.

I think you're referring to a single Zoanthrope. A zoat is a centauroid creature from Rogue Trader that was recently retconned into the tyranid codex as part of an extinct hive fleet. That zoanthrope like all synapse creatures was a conduit straight into the hive mind. So it wasn't the Doom of Mal'anti that killed everything all at once by itself, it was the hive mind working through it. As the tyranid codex says, the psychic powers of the tyranids are pulled from the hive mind directly.

Hellebore

Mánagarmr
24-11-2010, 02:11
I addressed the points that stood out to me.


Never said they were 'less worthy'. What I SAID and CONTINUE to say is that their makeup is not unique in the scheme of 40k. Biology + warp is not a special snowflake in 40k. They are biology + warp. So if you want to assign them special powers at odds with their creation, you have to allow the same thing for other 'biology + warp' entities.

Just because they're called primarchs and the emperor made them doesn't mean they get to ignore what they were made from.

However we can make note of the fact that they appear to be above and beyond the majority of the xeno equivalents that you mentioned.

For instance, you claimed that a lascannon would destroy a Primarch; yet Corax is hit by several shots from one in The Last Heretic and isn't even wounded, his armor is merely scuffed. While I'm sure that a wraithguard wouldn't fare quite so well, and isn't even comprised of flesh. Corax is more resilient, yet made from "weaker" materials.


We know that Sanguinius and Fulgrim are capable of fighting greater daemons. We know also that Sanguinius was defeated by a blood thirster (quite badly, had his back/legs broken) before he was able to overcome it.

It wasn't a mere "bloodthirster", it was one of the most favored greater daemons of Khorne.


I personally don't think the emperor is unskilled in his vocation, if I've said that in the past then I retract that. What I did say is that although the astronomicon is a good example of the emperor's power, it isn't a good example of skill because it's a very basic albiet power intensive process. Psykers have to learn NOT to broadcast; broadcasting itself is an innate thing everyone does.

The amount of power being broadcast is the real point though, it shows that he has "the juice". He's clearly an incredibly powerful psychic, something you seem to be reluctant to admit.


Please stop arguing from 'demi gods'.

While I disagree with you in regards to the title of demi-gods fitting the Primarch's, I don't feel like going into it. I will just say that it's a perfectly fitting title for beings of such incredible power and resilience.


Your question should be 'who can create biological entities that can contain large amounts of warp power?' As that is what a primarch actually is.

The answer? The Emperor; and his managed to conquer the galaxy, taking it by force from (sometimes many times more technologically advanced) a myriad of xeno species.


Now here is a question. If as people often cite, alpha+ psykers can crush titans with their mind and thus so could the emperor, does that mean that an alpha psyker could crush a primarch with their mind? If their flesh is still susceptible to damage and their bones to being broken, then the amount of force required to break an adamantium titan should be at least enough to kill a primarch.

As mentioned above, Primarch's seem to be supernaturally resilient to most damage, so I would say no.

I also base this off of the fact that Magnus the Red was an Alpha, if not more powerful - and his psychic onslaught did little more than crack the armor of Leman Russ during the battle of Prospero.


Not even the emperor created what the chaos gods create - even the smallest daemon is a being of pure warp energy. The emperor wasn't able to make the primarchs as pure warp energy beings that could manifest in the real world. They still required vessels to exist within.

His creations are all the more impressive because of it. The supposedly more impressive creations of lesser and greater daemons cannot exist outside the warp for prolonged amounts of time.

Why would he create a handful of sons to conquer the galaxy.. when they can't exist in it for more than a few hours?


I think you're referring to a single Zoanthrope. A zoat is a centauroid creature from Rogue Trader that was recently retconned into the tyranid codex as part of an extinct hive fleet. That zoanthrope like all synapse creatures was a conduit straight into the hive mind. So it wasn't the Doom of Mal'anti that killed everything all at once by itself, it was the hive mind working through it. As the tyranid codex says, the psychic powers of the tyranids are pulled from the hive mind directly.

I thought Eldar craftworlds had psychic guardians designed to protect the IC from anything like this, in-fact, I believe they're called warp spiders, from which the aspect takes its name. If that's the case, where were they - on a smoke break?


Obviously this time it worked better.

It appears that way, doesn't it? The Imperium, taking xeno concepts and making superior results. ;)

Hellebore
24-11-2010, 02:27
The amount of power being broadcast is the real point though, it shows that he has "the juice". He's clearly an incredibly powerful psychic, something you seem to be reluctant to admit.


I am not reluctant to admit that. I disagree with and cite evidence for the emperor being of 'chaos god' level of power. Being a powerful psyker is not the same thing, but many people cite him as being as powerful as one or all four chaos gods combined. A 'powerful psyker' is not.



While I disagree with you in regards to the title of demi-gods fitting the Primarch's, I don't feel like going into it. I will just say that it's a perfectly fitting title for beings of such incredible power and resilience.


I disagree with the term because it's not an objetive measurement. It doesn't mean anything. You cannot say 'a demi god is X and Y'. It's a literary device used to represent awesomeness. So yes, if we are trying to get the feel for what a primarch is across to people demi god is appropriate as a qualititative description.

But attempting to then use that as a measure of ability is flawed.



The answer? The Emperor; and his managed to conquer the galaxy, taking it by force from (sometimes many times more technologically advanced) a myriad of xeno species.


Absolutely, except that at the time the eldar empire had just collapsed so they weren't the power they were beforehand. You could point at this fact and state 'for all his power the emperor didn't challenge the eldar empire to take it by force, moving into the smoking ruins instead.' Could he have confonted the eldar empire at its zenith? We don't know. We do know he didn't though.



As mentioned above, Primarch's seem to be supernaturally resilient to most damage, so I would say no.

I also base this off of the fact that Magnus the Red was an Alpha, if not more powerful - and his psychic onslaught did little more than crack the armor of Leman Russ during the battle of Prospero.


I'm not denying their resilience. I'm saying that they are still injured so their resilience has its limits. Although your examples are actually of the awesomeness of their armour rather than their bodies, as the armour as you describe isn't penetrated only scuffed. So their armour seems to be pretty insane, as it would be.




I thought Eldar craftworlds had psychic guardians designed to protect the IC from anything like this, in-fact, I believe they're called warp spiders, from which the aspect takes its name. If that's the case, where were they - on a smoke break?


I'd like to know too...

Hellebore

UselessThing
24-11-2010, 02:38
It appears that way, doesn't it? The Imperium, taking xeno concepts and making superior results. ;)

Yeah. We can tell the Shamen were skillful, powerful or lucky because they created the Emperor, who is awesome.

Son of Sanguinius
24-11-2010, 02:40
Some points that stood out to me... ;)


For instance, you claimed that a lascannon would destroy a Primarch; yet Corax is hit by several shots from one in The Last Heretic and isn't even wounded, his armor is merely scuffed. While I'm sure that a wraithguard wouldn't fare quite so well, and isn't even comprised of flesh. Corax is more resilient, yet made from "weaker" materials.

Extract from The First Heretic....


". . . but the beams themselves flashed aside from the primarch's armour, never striking it straight on, leaving savage burn scars without penetrating."

You make it sound like Corax took direct hits. Not only is that untrue, but Corax is dodging the trajectory of the shots. He would only do that he thought they could hurt him. Moreover, his armor is made out of awesomesauce, which is deflecting the beams partially. His armor has nothing to do with his physical resilience.


It wasn't a mere "bloodthirster", it was one of the most favored greater daemons of Khorne.

You're absolutely right, but the post Hellebore was responding to claimed that the Primarchs surpassed the C'tan. He's giving an example of how one of the most powerful Primarchs was defeated by a creature that is not capable of killing a C'tan.


The amount of power being broadcast is the real point though, it shows that he has "the juice". He's clearly an incredibly powerful psychic, something you seem to be reluctant to admit.

He's admitted it several times. The Emperor has a lot of psychic potency. The question here is the assumption of the Emperor's skill. What a lot of you guys seem to not understand is that there is a difference between having strength and knowing how to use it.


While I disagree with you in regards to the title of demi-gods fitting the Primarch's, I don't feel like going into it. I will just say that it's a perfectly fitting title for beings of such incredible power and resilience.

Agreed, it's a fine title. But again, the above poster used the title in an illogical argument predicated on opinion rather than fact.


The answer? The Emperor; and his managed to conquer the galaxy, taking it by force from (sometimes many times more technologically advanced) a myriad of xeno species.

The Emperor didn't take the galaxy. The Space Marine Legions and Imperial Army did. They might have been following the Emperor's orders, but the Emperor can't do a damn thing about his desire for conquest without the warriors. And the only technologically advanced, galaxy spanning civilization that could have challenged the Emperor was that of the Eldar, who had just been mind-raped into submission and comparatively near-extinction by Slaanesh.


As mentioned above, Primarch's seem to be supernaturally resilient to most damage, so I would say no.

You're really of the opinion that a Primarch is more physically resilient to damage than an Imperial Battle Titan? A Primarch's flesh is tougher than meters and meters of ceramite and adamantium? This borders on Norris-ness.


I also base this off of the fact that Magnus the Red was an Alpha, if not more powerful - and his psychic onslaught did little more than crack the armor of Leman Russ during the battle of Prospero.

Leman Russ has a tremendously powerful soul himself, as witnessed by Ahriman. What's to say that Russ's soul, when combined with all of his fetishes and the like, isn't especially resistant to the kind of attacks Magnus would use?


His creations are all the more impressive because of it. The supposedly more impressive creations of lesser and greater daemons cannot exist outside the warp for prolonged amounts of time.

Why would he create a handful of sons to conquer the galaxy.. when they can't exist in it for more than a few hours?

Their impressiveness to you as a reader is not a point to base an argument of superiority on. And you're missing the point of Hellebore's point again. The Emperor is copying and arguably improving upon an established formula. Body + soul. The Chaos Gods are actually sending beings that violate or stretch the galaxy's physics into said galaxy for various lengths of time.


I thought Eldar craftworlds had psychic guardians designed to protect the IC from anything like this, in-fact, I believe they're called warp spiders, from which the aspect takes its name. If that's the case, where were they - on a smoke break?

Are you suggesting warp spiders are capable of defending an Infinity Circuit from the Hive Mind itself?

Death Whisper
24-11-2010, 03:01
Initiate flame-war success! :D

Not to fan the embers, but you should know better than to feed trolls Hellebore. :p A legitimate response is just as good as an enraged one to them, and some people just always have to have the final word, even if they have to stick their fingers in their ears while yelling out their ending statements.

Anyways, many interesting points were brought up that addressed the original question amongst all of the pet fan-fiction fantasies voiced as "interpretations" of the universe.

To clarify, I was questioning why the Emperor is so god-like, not if the Primarchs were. It seems my question may have been loaded, as Hellebore points out that the creation of the Emperor and Primarchs are nothing unique (not that they aren't rare/special as many seem to think).

Hellebore: I am a little confused on why you don't believe the Emperor's accomplishments aren't intended to be god-like. To qualify for this statement, his accomplishments merely need to be on the same level as something we can call a god. Objectively, (subjectively I think that the Old Ones and C'tan qualify as well) these would be the Chaos and Eldar gods. To establish a definition, there should be a common thread between the two, and from this, we can objectively (no arguments/opinions) say that a being that is both a warp-entity (whether or not they can manifest in the real world) and has abilities that are on a similar scale to any individual Eldar/Chaos god is god-like.

In terms of personal accomplishments/displays of power:
1. The Void Dragon was defeated and imprisoned at Mars. Though we cannot objectively say that C'tan are gods, (star-god is merely an epithet), Khaine is a god, and he did defeat the Nightbringer with the battle portrayed as fairly even since he also could not slay his foe and likewise took some non-trivial damage. I believe it's also mentioned that the Void Dragon is the most powerful C'tan.
2. One-shotted Horus, the then chosen of all the Chaos gods. As I understand it, the Chaos gods could not even slay the infant Primarchs. This could easily be explained away by saying that they planned out the Heresy as a superior plan of attack, but AFAIK, that was never outright stated, leaving us only with the fact that the Emperor killed a Primarch in an instant, but the Chaos gods never did, instead electing to scatter them across the universe.

A little hypocritical here, but I'm going to inject my own interpretation, qualifying this with the disclaimer that I'll try to apply my own take only where fluff clearly does not, or will not cover: I see the Primarchs as Greater Daemons/Avatars of the Emperor. Under this paradigm, the Astartes can be thought of as Possessed. As Hellebore has pointed out, the Primarchs are merely genetically engineered beings (presumably from human genetic material) infused with warp energy. Astartes are merely humans infused with "geneseed" taken from those warp-infused beings. Geneseed in this case is merely another word for warp-infused matter that can mutate both physiology(obvious) and mental function(alternating unihemispheric sleep, Black Rage). Yes, these are not purely warp-energy beings as daemons are, but I don't see this as necessarily as a deficiency. Daemons are unstable in the real-world, and instability is something the Emperor is not aiming for; rather, the opposite (more on this later).

In terms of ability to create, I believe the Emperor is still in decent standing relative to the other entities termed as gods:
1. Primarchs and Astartes have been shown to be a fairly even match for Greater and lesser daemons, respectively.
2. Assuming it would have worked, he also developed a web-way entrance, showing his warp-engineering to be arguably (subjective) at least as good as the Old Ones (he had to reverse engineer, meaning he had to understand before creating, whereas with invention, it is possible to create something you do not comprehend by accident). Additionally, to all the people who tout the Astronomicon as a great feat of the Emperor, this indicates that even he didn't think much of it (merely a work-around in place while he developed the long-term solution).

That being said, I believe that much of what Hellebore is saying supports Kage's explanation, which is what I was expecting when I phrased the question. Although the details we know regarding the creation of the Emperor should make him no more powerful than any other psyker-blob he is due to plot-armor. All of the points regarding the power of the shamans that formed him fail to account for the fact that if all it took was a single planet's worth of powerful psykers, along with the ability to be able to group-cast a spell that can both seal souls into physical forms and boost the output of warp-based abilities, a certain grand-Son of the Emperor should be equaling/excelling his ancestor already.


On a more Eldar note, the Infinity Circuits do contain the souls of dead Eldar, and Ynnead does exist. We know he will become a match for all of Chaos when all the Eldar souls in existence are powering him, but can he tap that power at the current time in the 40k universe? Does each risen wraithguard or wraithlord decrease his power?

Also, isn't wraithbone not composed of matter? I thought it was solidified warp-energy.

Mánagarmr
24-11-2010, 03:15
I am not reluctant to admit that. I disagree with and cite evidence for the emperor being of 'chaos god' level of power. Being a powerful psyker is not the same thing, but many people cite him as being as powerful as one or all four chaos gods combined. A 'powerful psyker' is not.

I don't believe the Emperor was the power of the chaos gods. I do, however, believe he was clever enough to outwit them, and deny them the ability to truly strike out at him, or thwart his plans.

Unfortunately, it seems he didn't count on his sons / soul fragments being corrupted.


I disagree with the term because it's not an objetive measurement. It doesn't mean anything. You cannot say 'a demi god is X and Y'. It's a literary device used to represent awesomeness. So yes, if we are trying to get the feel for what a primarch is across to people demi god is appropriate as a qualititative description.

That's all I'm saying.


But attempting to then use that as a measure of ability is flawed.

I suppose it's good that I never attempted to then.


Absolutely, except that at the time the eldar empire had just collapsed so they weren't the power they were beforehand. You could point at this fact and state 'for all his power the emperor didn't challenge the eldar empire to take it by force, moving into the smoking ruins instead.' Could he have confonted the eldar empire at its zenith? We don't know. We do know he didn't though.

I believe they could have, but that's obviously my opinion, that can't really ever be known one way or another.

Do keep in mind he didn't have the option though, considering Terra was surrounded by warp storms. It was the Eldar's fall that enabled Humanity to claim it's rightful place.


I'm not denying their resilience. I'm saying that they are still injured so their resilience has its limits. Although your examples are actually of the awesomeness of their armour rather than their bodies, as the armour as you describe isn't penetrated only scuffed. So their armour seems to be pretty insane, as it would be.

I believe they managed to infuse their wargear with a bit of their own power, making it much more resilient than your average suits, the same for their weapons.

Obviously they have limits, even gods in 40K seem capable of being wounded. I'm just pointing out that they're exemplary models of their creations, and tougher than you give them credit.


I'd like to know too...

I imagine most Eldar players would, hah.


You make it sound like Corax took direct hits. Not only is that untrue, but Corax is dodging the trajectory of the shots. He would only do that he thought they could hurt him. Moreover, his armor is made out of awesomesauce, which is deflecting the beams partially. His armor has nothing to do with his physical resilience.

The fact he could withstand them at all says a lot to me, regardless of being a direct hit or not. The fact that he can dodge and evade a lazer speaks of their supernatural nature though.

His armor absorbs the wound, obviously, but as I mentioned further up, I believe their armor is "enchanted" in a way, with their own warp power.


You're absolutely right, but the post Hellebore was responding to claimed that the Primarchs surpassed the C'tan. He's giving an example of how one of the most powerful Primarchs was defeated by a creature that is not capable of killing a C'tan.

Simply pointing out that it's not some basic daemon.


He's admitted it several times. The Emperor has a lot of psychic potency. The question here is the assumption of the Emperor's skill. What a lot of you guys seem to not understand is that there is a difference between having strength and knowing how to use it.

Closer to the end of this thread, yes. He has, though, been rather stubborn in regarding the Emperor as having any real power until recently.

The thing that you perhaps don't understand, is we don't have any reason to believe that he doesn't know how to use it. Just because he doesn't smite planets, doesn't mean he can't. We have no way of really knowing what he is capable of doing with his power.


Agreed, it's a fine title. But again, the above poster used the title in an illogical argument predicated on opinion rather than fact.

So what does this have to do with me, exactly?


The Emperor didn't take the galaxy. The Space Marine Legions and Imperial Army did. They might have been following the Emperor's orders, but the Emperor can't do a damn thing about his desire for conquest without the warriors. And the only technologically advanced, galaxy spanning civilization that could have challenged the Emperor was that of the Eldar, who had just been mind-raped into submission and comparatively near-extinction by Slaanesh.

The Emperor created the Primarch's and the astartes, and they are who took the galaxy; no offense intended to the Guard. The Guard were little more than meat shields when the Legions had several thousand marines at their command, and they almost always worked in a support role. The Guard of now, and the Heresy are quite different from one-another.

It was the Emperors vision; his plan; his willpower, that brought humanity to the point in which it could declare war on the universe - and be serious.

You're also mistaken in assuming that the Eldar were the only technologically evolved enemy the Imperium faced.


You're really of the opinion that a Primarch is more physically resilient to damage than an Imperial Battle Titan? A Primarch's flesh is tougher than meters and meters of ceramite and adamantium? This borders on Norris-ness.

I believe that because of their warp-infused nature that they were much more resilient than an astartes, which are super-humans.

I never claimed that they're tougher than titans, please stop trying to put words in my mouth, it's poor form for a friendly discussion - as is making my stance seem ludicrous.


Leman Russ has a tremendously powerful soul himself, as witnessed by Ahriman. What's to say that Russ's soul, when combined with all of his fetishes and the like, isn't especially resistant to the kind of attacks Magnus would use?

Nothing, but what's to say that it is? You can't use the fact that we can't say for sure, to call out my point, and then back your own.


Their impressiveness to you as a reader is not a point to base an argument of superiority on. And you're missing the point of Hellebore's point again. The Emperor is copying and arguably improving upon an established formula. Body + soul. The Chaos Gods are actually sending beings that violate or stretch the galaxy's physics into said galaxy for various lengths of time.

I didn't miss the point, actually. I said the Emperor took a formula and improved upon it.

The ruinous powers are also stated as "crafting" daemons from themselves, in a similar fashion to how God supposedly crafted angels from his own being. They're just splitting themselves up; I don't see that as somehow a superior form of creation.


Are you suggesting warp spiders are capable of defending an Infinity Circuit from the Hive Mind itself?

If the full might of the Hive Mind is in each zoanthrope, and not just an extension of his ability, why did the tyranid need psyker DNA to create zoanthropes in the first place?

Why can't he just reach out with his psychic power through a basic gaunt?

Son of Sanguinius
24-11-2010, 03:49
The fact he could withstand them at all says a lot to me, regardless of being a direct hit or not.

My whole point is you cannot logically say "regardless of being a direct hit or not." If I am grazed by a .50 BMG round and don't die, are you going to assume that I can naturally resist a direct hit from that type of ammunition?

If it pleases the court, let the record show that I cannot in fact survive a direct hit from a .50 BMG round. :D


The fact that he can dodge and evade a lazer speaks of their supernatural nature though.

How did I know you were going to say that? :D

That's why I said dodged the "trajectory". He can't actually dodge a laser beam unless the beam is slowed to less than the speed of light. And please, please don't argue that a Primarch can move as fast as light. Please. :cries:


His armor absorbs the wound, obviously, but as I mentioned further up, I believe their armor is "enchanted" in a way, with their own warp power.

Agreed totally, but the resistance of the armor still has nothing to do with the resilience of his physical body, which unless I'm mistaken was the point being discussed.


Simply pointing out that it's not some basic daemon.

Oh, I know. And you're right. I'm just trying to explain that the idea he was defeated by any Bloodthirster at all means he's likely insufficient to tackle a C'tan.


Closer to the end of this thread, yes. He has, though, been rather stubborn in regarding the Emperor as having any real power until recently.

This is the stuff I never get. Can you quote where he says the Emperor has no "real power"? So he doesn't think the Emperor is a bipedal death star. Just because he defends that opinion does not make him any more stubborn than you.


The thing that you perhaps don't understand, is we don't have any reason to believe that he doesn't know how to use it. Just because he doesn't smite planets, doesn't mean he can't. We have no really what is he capable of doing with his power.

You are again completely right, and I fully understand that point. But follow it yourself. Stop assuming he can smite planets for the purpose of argument. If your idea of the Emperor syncs with that, great. But don't bemoan someone else for not agreeing with that idea.


So what does this have to do with me, exactly?

Sincerest apologies. I misread your statement when I responded with that particular line.


The Emperor created the Primarch's and the astartes, and they are who took the galaxy; no offense intended to the Guard. The Guard were little more than meat shields when the Legions had several thousand marines at their command, and they almost always worked in a support role. The Guard of now, and the Heresy are quite different from one-another.

Actually, without the Army units, taking the galaxy would have been logistically impossible. A statistical impossibility. The point I'm making is you can't logically argue the Emperor did the conquering. History books make that mistake all the time because it's easier to associate a single face to the idea of a war host. Hitler didn't conquer France. The Nazis did. The Emperor did not conquer the galaxy. The Imperium's soldiers did.


It was the Emperors vision; his plan; his willpower, that brought humanity to the point in which it could declare war on the universe - and be serious.

I will totally agree with the idea that without the Emperor the endeavor would have been impossible. But however vital he might be, he simply cannot do it on his own. Otherwise why make armies?


You're also mistaken in assuming that the Eldar were the only technologically evolved enemy the Imperium faced.

Argh. Use the whole phrasing I used, please. :)

I said "technologically advanced, galaxy spanning civilization." You can't challenge the Imperium without the numbers or the territory. The Eldar were the only ones with advanced tech that were present across the breadth of the galaxy. If you have evidence to the contrary, I will gladly concede the point.


I believe that because of their warp-infused nature that they were much more resilient than an astartes, which are super-humans.

Agreed, but that's not what I had issue with.


I never claimed that they're tougher than titans, please stop trying to put words in my mouth, it's poor form for a friendly discussion - as is making my stance seem ludicrous.

I'm not putting words in your mouth or making you seem ludicrous. If you were being ludicrous, I wouldn't bother responding to your posts. You seem like an intelligent fellow, but I disagree with the points you presented for discussion.


Nothing, but what's to say that it is? You can't use the fact that we can't say for sure, to call out my point, and then back your own.

I'm not saying that my explanation was THE explanation. What I'm saying is that while there is another possible explanation for why Russ was more resistant to the attack, you can't use that resistance to support your point of physical resilience.


I didn't miss the point, actually. I said the Emperor took a formula and improved upon it.

I concede this to a degree. The "impressiveness" is a matter of opinion, and I made the mistaken of letting my opinion that the creation of a demon is superior to bioengineering get through. Sorry about that.


If the full might of the Hive Mind is in each zoanthrope, and not just an extension of his ability, why did the tyranid need psyker DNA to create zoanthropes in the first place?

The Hive Mind isn't in each Zoanthrope. The Zoanthrope is a conduit and was created to be one. I would assume that they used psyker DNA (eldar, if memory serves) as prototype DNA to make "improvements" on. It would presumably be faster than trial and error from the ground up.


Why can't he just reach out with his psychic power through a basic gaunt?

Because Gaunts aren't created for the purpose of being channels for the Hive Mind.

Mánagarmr
24-11-2010, 04:49
My whole point is you cannot logically say "regardless of being a direct hit or not." If I am grazed by a .50 BMG round and don't die, are you going to assume that I can naturally resist a direct hit from that type of ammunition?

If it pleases the court, let the record show that I cannot in fact survive a direct hit from a .50 BMG round. :D

The lascannon should of gone through his armor, graze or not, but it didn't.


That's why I said dodged the "trajectory". He can't actually dodge a laser beam unless the beam is slowed to less than the speed of light. And please, please don't argue that a Primarch can move as fast as light. Please. :cries:

I always smile when I encounter people who attempt to bring a smug sense of realism into a world of chainsaw wielding super-humans and space-faring dinosaur-like insectoids. :rolleyes:

He moved so fast when fighting, that the Iron Warriors were unable to properly get a lock; he was faster than a genetically altered warrior can fire. When xeno encounter astartes, they're fighting for their lives with an equal; yet astartes are like cows being lead to the slaughter against a Primarch.

They're obviously very powerful, but that's been my point all along. I said that Hellebore, even if unintended, was painting them in a lackluster light. It seems to be a reoccurring theme with these posts, so clearly I wasn't the only one who read his statements that way.

I never said "PRIMARCHS PUNCH THROUGH TITANS AND EAT ROCKETS". So I'd appreciate it if you stop attempting to paint me as a biased marine-fanboy.


Agreed totally, but the resistance of the armor still has nothing to do with the resilience of his physical body, which unless I'm mistaken was the point being discussed.

I was saying that their armor and weapons are clearly supernatural in nature, like themselves, and should be considered as part of their resilience, as I believe it gains these qualities from them.

Obviously they're more vulnerable without their armor, I'm not disputing that.


Oh, I know. And you're right. I'm just trying to explain that the idea he was defeated by any Bloodthirster at all means he's likely insufficient to tackle a C'tan.

That's a pretty big leap you're taking. Can you show me your "power base" flow-chart you've been given by Games Workshop?


This is the stuff I never get. Can you quote where he says the Emperor has no "real power"? So he doesn't think the Emperor is a bipedal death star. Just because he defends that opinion does not make him any more stubborn than you.

I'll find the exact quote if you're unable to go back a few pages and see where he talks about how he believes "The Emperor really wasn't that powerful". He doesn't say, "He's only about a 6 out of 10", he specifically said he believed that the Emperor wasn't very powerful.

His tone has changed throughout the post, which I acknowledged. I am a little confused that you're unable to see that, though.


You are again completely right, and I fully understand that point. But follow it yourself. Stop assuming he can smite planets for the purpose of argument. If your idea of the Emperor syncs with that, great. But don't bemoan someone else for not agreeing with that idea.

I didn't bemoan anyone that, again, you're creating a hyperbolic stance for me, that I myself haven't even taken. I don't expect everyone to share my view of 40K, but I do think it's just stubborn to claim the Emperor isn't at the least a powerful psyker - not that Hellebore specifically did.


Actually, without the Army units, taking the galaxy would have been logistically impossible. A statistical impossibility. The point I'm making is you can't logically argue the Emperor did the conquering. History books make that mistake all the time because it's easier to associate a single face to the idea of a war host. Hitler didn't conquer France. The Nazis did. The Emperor did not conquer the galaxy. The Imperium's soldiers did.

How do you figure that, exactly?

By army, do you mean soldiers in general? If so, then no, he probably couldn't have - as he obviously needed his sons and their progeny, or he wouldn't have created them in the first place.

If you mean human grunts, then I disagree.

He planted the seeds for the Mechanicum with the Void Dragon, and they supplied the transports, armor, and weapons of his super soliders.

The "Army" were meat shields to take weaker worlds, or hold an enemy while astartes moved to engage.


I will totally agree with the idea that without the Emperor the endeavor would have been impossible. But however vital he might be, he simply cannot do it on his own. Otherwise why make armies?

I'm not trying to claim he did it on his own, I even said, he made his sons for a reason, I'm saying because of him - it was possible. He was the crusade.


Argh. Use the whole phrasing I used, please. :)

I said "technologically advanced, galaxy spanning civilization." You can't challenge the Imperium without the numbers or the territory. The Eldar were the only ones with advanced tech that were present across the breadth of the galaxy. If you have evidence to the contrary, I will gladly concede the point.

I didn't notice that your point was focused on the enemy spanning the entire galaxy. Well then, no - no enemy had as much "land" as the Imperium. They did start with just Terra at one point though.


I'm not putting words in your mouth or making you seem ludicrous. If you were being ludicrous, I wouldn't bother responding to your posts. You seem like an intelligent fellow, but I disagree with the points you presented for discussion.

Ok, well then I apologize. It just seems that you're attempting to make claims for me.

"So you think they can survive a titans blast?"
"So you think warp spiders can fight the hive mind?"

Etc.


I'm not saying that my explanation was THE explanation. What I'm saying is that while there is another possible explanation for why Russ was more resistant to the attack, you can't use that resistance to support your point of physical resilience.

It's anecdotal, but it's all we have. He asked if a psyker could kill a Primarch, and I cited the one example we have of a known Alpha+ battling a Primarch.

I can't say for certain that it applies to all Primarchs for sure, no. But I can make an educated guess off what I've read. That's all I did.


The Hive Mind isn't in each Zoanthrope. The Zoanthrope is a conduit and was created to be one. I would assume that they used psyker DNA (eldar, if memory serves) as prototype DNA to make "improvements" on. It would presumably be faster than trial and error from the ground up.

Because Gaunts aren't created for the purpose of being channels for the Hive Mind.

My point is though, why do they even need the conduit?

Ravenor, of the so-named series can not only control his mercenaries, but use his gifts actively while controlling them, and he's obviously nowhere near the power level of the hive mind. So why does the hive mind need an "amp" to use his power?

EDIT: I hope this didn't come off as rude, as it's not intended. If it is, let me know, and I'll revise my thoughts.

Son of Sanguinius
24-11-2010, 07:28
No worries, Managarmr. You weren't rude, and I don't take impassioned arguments or disbelief as rude. Shall we agree to disagree then?

Mánagarmr
24-11-2010, 08:15
No worries, Managarmr. You weren't rude, and I don't take impassioned arguments or disbelief as rude. Shall we agree to disagree then?

That sounds ideal. Responding to these massive posts is daunting, haha.

MvS
24-11-2010, 11:46
The comments and responses in threads like these can get confusing. Managarmr seemed to have responded to some comments Hellebore made about points raised by Mergmer as if they were addressed to him. In fact both Managarmr and Son of Sanguinius have identified a similar problem in their discussion with each other here and there.

I guess that’s one of the hazards of discussing on internet fora.

Although he doesn't need me to stick up for him I think it's good community practice to point out that Hellebore isn't a 'troll' as someone has suggested here. He has strong views - as do most of us, particularly the old die hards from Portent days - and he will argue his point.

I've had debates about religion, science and politics with him - subjects guaranteed to bring out the bitter nutter in anyone, but while he argued very strongly indeed, he wasn't 'trolling'. Disagreement, even rigid disagreement, isn't trolling.

Anyway, that aside, there are a few points from this thread that I want to pick up on:

Corax vs. Lascannons: when I read the battle scene in the First Heretic and I didn't get the impression that Corax was turning aside blasts through psychic might or whatever else.

The impression I got was that Corax was equipped with an Iron Halo or equivalent, mixed with his preternatural speed and the fact that the Primarchs would literally have the most advanced/difficult to produce/elite/artificer (whatever) armour available in the Imperium. They are the Emperor's sons and his proxies. Their equipment would be the best there is, especially considering Ferrus Manus and Vulkan seemed to have made many of the weapons and armour used by the Primarchs, so this is super-tech stuff.

I think it likely that a Primarch could easily survive injuries that would kill any other non-psychic human or ab-human (or Space Marine 'post human'). But a direct Lascannon blast to the face where no iron halos, artificer armour or specific psychic wards have been set up to block or redirect the effects would still cause hideous, if not fatal, damage.

The Primarchs' saving grace seem to be their ability to heal at a rate that would impress Wolverine, not that they can't be damaged by powerful conventional means (Magnus and his psychic powers notwithstanding).

Primarchs As 'Demi-Gods': The Primarchs are demi-gods, because we say they are. That's the point about descriptors like 'demi-god', they are value judgements, not more 'objective' and measurable descriptors like 'this water if boiling at 100°C'.

That said, the Primarchs are powerful and limited for the reasons Hellebore and others have suggested. We've been told in numerous books that the Emperor and his team of scientists were genetic engineers of unprecedented ability. The First Heretic stated (I think reasonably) that the Emperor's expertise at engineering the physical shells of the Primarchs went down to the atomic, even quantum, level. So in other words the Primarchs weren't just made from sophisticated strands of DNA and their 'flesh' wasn't really flesh by any 'normal' measure. It was perhaps more like a biological version of the living metal that the Necrons developed to house the raw power of the C'tan. A biological substance created solely for the purpose of storing massive amounts of Warp energy without breaking down or rupturing.

This doesn't mean they were invulnerable to powerful conventional weapons, any more than a C'tan Necrodermis is - although when mixed with the other abilities and equipment of the Primarchs (so their superhuman speed and senses, their top-notch equipment, their incredible healing abilities and even their psychic powers where appropriate), the Primarchs may well seem to possess the powers and abilities of gods.

Primarchs' Resistance to Psychic Powers: From the various books it seems that the Primarchs are protected to some degree from psychic powers. Just looking at the fact that Magnus didn't/couldn't blast Russ to pieces with a thought suggests to me that whatever their physical abilities, the Primarchs were engineered and 'ensorcelled' by the Emperor to have some resistance to the Warp and its energies, however they might manifest.

With this in mind, although a Primarch may be able to shrug off an attack from and Alpha+ Psyker who might otherwise be able to flatten cities, this doesn't necessarily mean that the Primarch has the same level or type of powers at the Alpha+ Psyker. Some clearly did, Magnus again. Other clearly didn't, Guilliman perhaps.

Whatever the case though, it seems the Emperor intended his sons to be resistant to 'magic' as far as was possible, probably to protect them from Chaos. His success was mixed at best.

Primarchs vs. C'tan: This is one of those Chuck Norris debates, but I think it worth pointing out that the C'tan were supposed to be billions of years old and at the height of their powers able to consume stars and naturally jig around the laws of physics to do all sorts of 'miraculous' wonders, from walking through walls, folding space, and 'phasing' in and out of the dimensions of 'normal' space.

Different Primarchs may have excelled the C'tan in specific areas, but on the whole the C'tan were much more powerful - I say this more because of the concept of what they were, rather than because of comparisons of who killed who. As mentioned in other threads, we have stories of an Ork warlord choking the Emperor so that the Emperor needed to be saved, so unless we're saying that the Ork Warlord was more powerful the Emperor, Primarchs, etc, etc, then I think it clear that there are plenty of times within the background imagery where story and narrative are more important in particular instances than continuity of 'strength levels', or whatever.

The C'tan that have awoken in the current era are mere fractions of what they used to be, and yet still they are powerful on a par with Greater Daemons - although I suspect that in the upcoming Necron Codex that these "C'tan" are going to be retconned to being powerful Necron Lords with amazing and highly advanced bodies. I may be wrong but watch this space.

Primarchs vs. Greater Daemons: This is another problematic area of consistent comparison because in different publications we are told that Greater Daemons can be the size of planets and are able to destroy planets, depending on the context. In the Warp there are no consistent limits on a Greater Daemons power other than to say that however powerful they can be, they aren't as powerful as the Chaos Gods.

In the Eye of Terror Greater Daemons are more measurable, but still depending on where they are or how close to the rim they are they can vary from planet killers to mighty warlords. In Realspace we have greater daemons being killed by heroic mortals. All this means is that the amount of Warp 'overspill' in that area isn't sufficient to allow the Greater Daemon to be a planet killer in that instance, not that the Greater Daemon is at maximum strength and the hero who killed it must therefore be stronger than a Greater Daemon per se. He was just stronger in that instance - plot armour notwithstanding.

The Emperor is 'Godlike': I agree with Hellebore here, because I think the point he is making is more subtle than it seems to have been taken as being. Yes, on the one hand the Emperor can be called a 'god' because, as with the demi-god discussion above, 'godlike' is a value judgement rather than an objective measure that everyone can agree upon. I call the great oak tree my god, you call the sun your god, and Bob over there can call some great hero he idolises a god.

The descriptor means something, but it tells us more about the person using it than the object itself.

On the flipside though, in Warhammer imagery we are presented with 'gods' and 'daemons' in a more objective sense too. They are like species-names for a type of entity. So the massive Warp Storms that have become sentient are actual gods in the imagery. 'God', in most circumstances in 40K, refers to 'sentient Warp Storm of seemingly unapproachable power' or thereabouts.

In this respect (using the Warhammer lexicon, as it were), the Emperor as he was while walking around during the Great Crusade and previously wasn't an 'objective' Warhammer Warp Storm god. As Hellebore pointed out, the way the Phoenix Lords work is closer to what the Emperor was - many powerful souls all bound together into a singular mortal 'shell'.

The Phoenix Lords seem to be more stable psychologically because the mind of the first Exarch who became the first Phoenix Lord is the dominant personality and controller of the whole, where the Emperor is a gestalt identity without a singular dominant mind controlling all the others. He is a cocktail in and of himself. This was fine until his near-killing at the hands of Horus. His mind has started to fragment in more recent millennia, or so we're told.

This doesn't mean the Phoenix Lords are as powerful as the Emperor, or powerful in the same ways, because the Emperor we are told time and again was one of the most powerful (non daemonic / Warp entity) psykers ever. The Phoenix Lords are not psykers in that sense.

I would imagine the Phoenix Lords of the contemporary imagery would be or should be as powerful as the Primarchs in many ways, because they are thousands of souls of elite warriors with around 10,000 years of experience all contained within an nearly invulnerable shell and micro-infinity circuit. We have to ignore their rules in the game for much the same reason that we have to ignore the C'tan rules - they simply don't match the imagery they have been given in the contexts that they have been given.

In the rules the Phoenix Lords aren't even as powerful as physically manifested Greater Daemons, when the Phoenix Lords are Warp Storms of countless souls in their own right...

Anyway, my tuppance... :)

Idaan
24-11-2010, 12:08
On your Phoenix Lord point, they are comparable to the Primarchs.
There are stats for one Primarch, Angron. His statline is:
WS10 BS6 S7 T6 W5 I6 A6 Ld10 Sv4+
The stats represent him during the 1st Armageddon War, when he was a Khorne Daemon Prince. If you subtract the difference between a Daemon Prince with a Mark of Khorne and a regular Chaos Lord, you're left with:
WS9 BS6 S5 T5 W4 I6 A4 Ld10 Sv4+
Compare with Phoenix Lord stats:
WS7 BS7 S4 T4 W3 I7 A4 Ld10 Sv2+
I don't think it's just a coincidence that they're that close. Of course people will say that the Primarch was reduced in his stats for balance reasons yadda yadda, but:
a) nobody's concerned about balance in Apocalypse
b) it'd be incredible double standards to say that only the Primarch stats are reduced, while the Phoenix Lords are a faithful representation of their skills. If they're both downpowered, they're downpowered by a comparable amount.

MvS
24-11-2010, 12:19
On your Phoenix Lord point, they are comparable to the Primarchs.
There are stats for one Primarch, Angron. His statline is:
WS10 BS6 S7 T6 W5 I6 A6 Ld10 Sv4+
The stats represent him during the 1st Armageddon War, when he was a Khorne Daemon Prince. If you subtract the difference between a Daemon Prince with a Mark of Khorne and a regular Chaos Lord, you're left with:
WS9 BS6 S5 T5 W4 I6 A4 Ld10 Sv4+
Compare with Phoenix Lord stats:
WS7 BS7 S4 T4 W3 I7 A4 Ld10 Sv2+
I don't think it's just a coincidence that they're that close. Of course people will say that the Primarch was reduced in his stats for balance reasons yadda yadda, but:
a) nobody's concerned about balance in Apocalypse
b) it'd be incredible double standards to say that only the Primarch stats are reduced, while the Phoenix Lords are a faithful representation of their skills. If they're both downpowered, they're downpowered by a comparable amount.
I take your point.

I think mine should have been that none of these stats match how the characters are described in the imagery. So both should be 'up powered', but that this would attract accusations of being 'unplayable' - stupid, I think, because I would regard these characters as being special units that are more like war machines than simple Independent Characters or Monstrous Creatures.

EDIT:

As an aside, I'll be putting up my completely re-jigged 'Gods and Demi-Gods' Apocalypse Extravanganza shortly. The Phoenix Lords and Primarchs have had a considerable overhaul, along with lots of other goodness. :)

Idaan
24-11-2010, 12:27
I think I didn't make myself clear enough. They aren't on the power level their fluff indicates, but they're downgraded using the same scale - if they're comparable in game, they're also comparable in reality. So let's say that each godlike being (C'tan, Avatars in some interpretations) have stats that represent 10% of their true power, supernatural characters (Daemon Lords like Ang'grath, Primarchs, Phoenix Lords) - 50%, mortal heroes - 75%, etc etc.

Kage2020
24-11-2010, 14:52
I think mine should have been that none of these stats match how the characters are described in the imagery.
Which, to be fair, is common throughout the 40k hobbyist materials. It would appear that describing "awesome" fights is easier when you just go with the scene rather than rolling some dice and trusting it to come out as awesomesauce, as Son of Sanguinius might say.

Scenes are not random, even if plots (if present ;)), can be.

To be fair, and to place myself in the category as well, is not much of the discussion subject to school playground rules? Go into a playground for 8-10 year olds and get them to play superheroes. The kids all have an idea of what their favourite superhero can do, informed as they are from sources very similar to the ones that we're working from (stories and comics, all littered with plot armour and protagonist buffing, cool artwork, etc.) and they're all the 'ardest, to borrow from Gav Thorpe, bestest cat on the blok*.

* Spelling in honour of anything Ork-y. :rolleyes:

As well crafted as the arguments may be, as well researched as individual tid-bits of 'fluff' appear or are, ultimately we're just not given enough information to make "objective" observations, only informed interpretations. Indeed, this is seemingly the central premise of 40k.

Of course, none of that doesn't mean that discussing these things cannot be fun! Ultimately the answer is, "Because he is." Ramping that up, and toning it down, are all part of the idiosyncratic approaches to the 40k universe that make it fun and appealing.

Kage

merghmer
24-11-2010, 14:56
The astronomicon helps warp travel, it isn't necessary for warp travel. Humanity functioned just fine without it. The eldar never needed one because the had the webway. Whether they could create one or not is unknown because they've never needed to use one.

Wrong. Its not just the Eldar, rather no other faction in 40K has as of yet managed to navigate the Warp with anywhere near the relative safely the Astronomicon provides (aside from Chaos, of course, who don't need it).

The Tau can't. The Eldar can't (if the webway every goes down they're screwed, and their Craftworlds cannot travel FTL to escape from any approaching doom). The Necrons use other non-warp means. They Tyrannids no longer travel FTL.



The Navigators use it to nagivate. And they were not created by the emperor. There is no evidence that he made them. They existed before or during the Age of Strife before the Emperor revealed himself. They have a mutation, the 'navigator gene' which they can use to 'find their way' in the warp. The astronomicon makes it easier because it is a point of reference, like using stars in the sky.

Again a massive understatement. Navigation without the Astropath is akin to driving blindfolded and hoping you don't crash into a tree.

Without benefit of another method of FTL travel there would be absolutely no way to maintain a galaxy-spanning empire similar to what the IoM has now. At best they would be able to maintain a small fiefdom in their personal area of space like the Tau do now - and even then they would still lose many ships to daemons in the warp.



There have been instances where other aliens have used the astronomicon to navigate (albiet roughly) by. It isn't on the 'human' wavelength, it's just a massive lighthouse shining indiscriminately into the warp in all directions.

Some examples would be helpful.



Never said they were 'less worthy'. What I SAID and CONTINUE to say is that their makeup is not unique in the scheme of 40k. Biology + warp is not a special snowflake in 40k. They are biology + warp. So if you want to assign them special powers at odds with their creation, you have to allow the same thing for other 'biology + warp' entities.

Just because they're called primarchs and the emperor made them doesn't mean they get to ignore what they were made from.

Again, wrong.
They may or may not be "warp constructs" - it is NEVER specified beyond your own imagination (not that there isn't anything wrong with a hyperactive imagination).

Nevertheless, no warp constructs thus far are able to pass on a psychic imprint the way Primarchs do. Wraithguard or WL certainly can't - and neither can Greater Daemons, beyond their daemonhost.

Notwithstanding that they are far and above superior to their Xeno equivalents (in the case of GDs, in realspace anyway).


Being 'equal' to a C'tan is conjecture on your part. C'tan can eat stars. Can primarchs eat stars?:p In reality, a C'tan is far beyond a primarch given what we know of their construction. C'tan are energy, primarchs matter. It's much easier to deconstruct matter than it is to muck about with energy.

Not at all, you just have to shoot a C'tan with a warp cannon.

Similarly, a Primarch may have other weaknesses. Even then, not all C'tan or Primarchs have equivalent power. Certainly the Nightbringer would be physically superior to the Deceiver. Claiming a Primarch is far lesser than a C'tan is again, only in your own imagination and unsupported by fluff.

What we do know - the Emperor (probably) beat the void dragon, the most powerful C'tan. The Emperor did best many Primarchs.


We know that Sanguinius and Fulgrim are capable of fighting greater daemons. We know also that Sanguinius was defeated by a blood thirster (quite badly, had his back/legs broken) before he was able to overcome it.

Not only was the daemon a favored Champion of Khorne - Sanguinius absolutely wiped the floor with it, breaking its back over his knee. This wasn't a Guilliman-almost-died-but-falcon-punched-the-avatar scenario. The daemon only won when the BA were ambushed. Also, bear in mind that in those early days, the IoM knew almost nothing about fighting Daemons. With some blessed weapons and purity seals, even if ambushed, Sanguinius may have prevailed easily.

As it was, he can't have been hurt too badly because a short time later he managed to go toe-to-toe with the Chaos-powered Horus.


Maintaining psychic links isn't hard. Telepathy is a basic school of psychic power.

After death? I'd like you to name a few 40k characters who have such power.



This actually happens with all psychic beings to lesser or greater degrees. Psykers with sufficient skill can read the psychic imprints of an area to get an idea of what happened there in the past. The warp can corrupt in a similar fashion. Imprinting into organisms and producing mutant species that pass on that effect every generation.

Warp corruption is random. In this case, the exact traits of the primarch are passed on. This presumably takes a being of additional power - seeing as 10,000 years on many of the legions still take after their progenitor, even after said progenitor may have long since passed on (Dorn, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus, perhaps Guilliman, etc.)



'web construct?' I claimed no such thing. I said they were analagous to a wraithguard/lord in function or a biomancer psyker with their biomancy skills switched to 'ON' permanently. A phoenix lord is actually like the emperor rather than a primarch in terms of construction. If you wish to construe that as me claiming a phoenix lord to be the equivalent of the emperor then that's your perogative.

Greater Deamons, being warp entities, do have the ability to 'corrupt' organisms and have that pass down. They act as amplifiers of the emotions their gods feed on. Being in the presence of a Keeper of Secrets is a corrupting effect. I use the term 'corrupting' abstractly, I use it to reflect psychic/warp manipulation of organisms. Some of the primarchs deliberately or accidently 'corrupted' their genome and passed that to anyone that receives it. It's not bad, it's just functionally the same as any warp effect, just far more concentrated and specialised, as the primarchs are.

Ridiculous argument.

That's like saying a Sword-class escort is similar to an Emperor-class battleship, in that they are both ships and can travel FTL. Its an ultra-simplistic way of looking at it. Perhaps the complexity involved never crossed your mind.



The primarchs are in 40k biologically human (engineered obviously) and have a powerful warp link. THAT is what they objectively are. If THAT is what a 'demi god' is, then all psykers are differing levels of 'demi god'.

Demi god is not a thing in 40k that you can measure. Therefore, talking about things in these terms is meaningless.

Your question should be 'who can create biological entities that can contain large amounts of warp power?' As that is what a primarch actually is.

The answer is, not many. The emperor's prowess was in figuring out how to prevent such large amounts of warp power from destroying the host body. His genius was in genetic engineering. He managed to produce biological matter that didn't decay under the pressure of warp energy. The eldar have a similar thing, but it's pseudo inorganic (as much as something called a 'psycho plastic' is inorganic). Wraithbone and its relatives perform the same function, but they aren't biological tissue. Alpha psykers channel so much warp power that they quickly disintegrate.

No, the answer is, none. Neither the Old Ones nor the Chaos Gods have managed such a feat (at least, the Chaos Gods never bothered to try, or if you believe the OP they had to rely on the big E to do it for them).

This implies that, on intellect at least, the Emperor was on par with, if not superior to the other "God" entities.

In terms of sheer power? Nobody knows as GW has never specified. However the Emperor WAS at the very least powerful and intelligent enough to carve out a galaxy-spanning empire that is (at least for now) the largest in the setting. Chaos may potentially be stronger individually or collectively, but due to its fractious and illogical nature is unable to take full advantage of its power.


Now here is a question. If as people often cite, alpha+ psykers can crush titans with their mind and thus so could the emperor, does that mean that an alpha psyker could crush a primarch with their mind? If their flesh is still susceptible to damage and their bones to being broken, then the amount of force required to break an adamantium titan should be at least enough to kill a primarch.

There is no need to ask this question as there is already an answer.

The answer is yes. The Emperor crushed the jacked-up Horus with a single psychic assault even though he was already mortally wounded. So at the very least, the big E was an Alpha+ level psyker, since that is the ONLY recorded instance of a psychic assault crushing a Primarch.

The only other instance, that of Magnus trying to pull one on Russ, resulted in Russ laughing off the attack. Given that Magnus was already an extremely powerful psyker and Russ wasn't even fuelled on Chaossy awesomesauce illustrates just how much power the Emperor could summon, even if only for a brief instance.


Not even the emperor created what the chaos gods create - even the smallest daemon is a being of pure warp energy. The emperor wasn't able to make the primarchs as pure warp energy beings that could manifest in the real world. They still required vessels to exist within.

Being of pure warp energy is probably a handicap rather than a benefit. They may immortal, but only exist in a temporal state. In addition, they are only as tough as their vessel - bind a daemon in a cookie jar, if you break the jar, bye-bye daemon.
A primarch, however, is a lot harder to kill. A. Lot.




I think you're referring to a single Zoanthrope. A zoat is a centauroid creature from Rogue Trader that was recently retconned into the tyranid codex as part of an extinct hive fleet. That zoanthrope like all synapse creatures was a conduit straight into the hive mind. So it wasn't the Doom of Mal'anti that killed everything all at once by itself, it was the hive mind working through it. As the tyranid codex says, the psychic powers of the tyranids are pulled from the hive mind directly.


The fact remains, that the Inifintiy circuit did not even attempt to defend itself via psychic shields or wards. A powerful being or web construct? I think not.

merghmer
24-11-2010, 15:00
On your Phoenix Lord point, they are comparable to the Primarchs.
There are stats for one Primarch, Angron. His statline is:
WS10 BS6 S7 T6 W5 I6 A6 Ld10 Sv4+
The stats represent him during the 1st Armageddon War, when he was a Khorne Daemon Prince. If you subtract the difference between a Daemon Prince with a Mark of Khorne and a regular Chaos Lord, you're left with:
WS9 BS6 S5 T5 W4 I6 A4 Ld10 Sv4+
Compare with Phoenix Lord stats:
WS7 BS7 S4 T4 W3 I7 A4 Ld10 Sv2+
I don't think it's just a coincidence that they're that close. Of course people will say that the Primarch was reduced in his stats for balance reasons yadda yadda, but:
a) nobody's concerned about balance in Apocalypse
b) it'd be incredible double standards to say that only the Primarch stats are reduced, while the Phoenix Lords are a faithful representation of their skills. If they're both downpowered, they're downpowered by a comparable amount.

But why would you subtract away Angron's Daemon Prince with Mark of Khorne abilities without adding on any of the imperium-specific add-ons, including iron halos and/or artificer armor?

Idaan
24-11-2010, 15:15
Wrong. Its not just the Eldar, rather no other faction in 40K has as of yet managed to navigate the Warp with anywhere near the relative safely the Astronomicon provides (aside from Chaos, of course, who don't need it).

The Tau can't. The Eldar can't (if the webway every goes down they're screwed, and their Craftworlds cannot travel FTL to escape from any approaching doom). The Necrons use other non-warp means. They Tyrannids no longer travel FTL.

Every. Single. Race. Ever.
Beginning with the humanity itself, which managed to spread across the galaxy during the DaoT without Navigators and the Astronomican.
Then you have the Orks (curiously missing from your list), Demiurg, Kroot, Hrud, Fra'al and every other race that appears in more than one sector of space. From FFG's RPG line we have Xeno devices called Immaterios Novis and Runecasters that can supplant a Navigator.
The Eldar can and do use normal FTL, but they do it only in direst circumstances when they have no other means of escape or reaching their target.



What we do know - the Emperor (probably) beat the void dragon, the most powerful C'tan. The Emperor did best many Primarchs.

We "do know" that he "probably" beat him? Then we don't know at all. Not to mention all the other variables in the scenario: what (if any) effect did the Talismans of Vaul have on the Dragon, did he go to sleep undisturbed, whether he landed on Earth or Mars (Earth is only implied in "Mechanicum" and it doesn't fit any of the tomb world criteria in Necron Codex), was he bound by the young races and deprived of his power, did he have a source of nourishment in his sleep, did he wake up (him "demanding virgins" contradicts Necron Codex which says that only two C'tan have woken up), when and where the duel took place, whether it was physical form of the Emperor vs the physical form of the Dragon or just battle of some portion of Dragon's energy vs. Emperor's psychic power, etc etc. "The most powerful C'tan" is also very, very vague when it comes creatures whose power depends so much on their nourishment. Depending on all these variables it could have been as easy as taking a lollipop from a disabled child or a great feat nobody has matched in the history of life in the universe.

Mánagarmr
24-11-2010, 18:13
I would imagine the Phoenix Lords of the contemporary imagery would be or should be as powerful as the Primarchs in many ways

I understand you're stating your opinion, which isn't wrong or right, but I have to dispute this.

In the novel, Path of the Warrior, the striking scorpion phoenix lord, Karandras, recalls the memory of being killed by a space marine sergeant - and then is later killed by a dreadnought.

I think this makes their power being comparable to a Primarch questionable at the very least.

Idaan
24-11-2010, 18:20
It's the Exarch Morlaniath that recalls being killed by a sergeant. And Karandras throws himself onto the Dreadnought's claw to save Bechareth. Firstly, it's comparable to Konrad Curze being killed by M'shen with the added bonus that sacrificing themselves is actually a viable tactic to the Phoenix Lords. Secondly, the whole scene smells a bit like author fiat just to let the final revelation about Arhra happen - typical GW rushed ending due to running out of pages, no disrespect to Gav Thorpe of course.

Mánagarmr
24-11-2010, 18:36
It's the Exarch Morlaniath that recalls being killed by a sergeant.

That's something to consider though. A phoenix lord is a psychic whirlpool of exarchs. Exarchs who can be killed in combat by heroes of rival factions, the example in this case being the marine sergeant. Karandras may run the show, but why does taking in flawed exarchs make him more powerful?

It's not like it makes him stronger - or faster, and he doesn't seem to use the psychic aspect of the soul-gestalt. So is it just having the added experience of each exarch makes him a more well-rounded warrior?

Or is it just "Dragon Ball Z" logic, that more is better?


And Karandras throws himself onto the Dreadnought's claw to save Bechareth. Firstly, it's comparable to Konrad Curze being killed by M'shen with the added bonus that sacrificing themselves is actually a viable tactic to the Phoenix Lords. Secondly, the whole scene smells a bit like author fiat just to let the final revelation about Arhra happen - typical GW rushed ending due to running out of pages, no disrespect to Gav Thorpe of course.

He eats the power-talons, dies, and then consumes the Eldar who touches his armor so that he can live again. He didn't really "save" him, did he? Being used as a filing cabinet of memories for Karandras seems like a pretty bad deal to me, personally.

Idaan
24-11-2010, 18:58
No, Korlandril-Morlaniath, the protagonist, is the one who feeds him. The Eldar whom Karandras tried to save is Bechareth, reformed Dark Eldar Incubi. Karandras himself was a (proto)Dark Eldar before Arhra saved him, which is why he makes the sacrifice.


Karandras may run the show, but why does taking in flawed exarchs make him more powerful?The Exarch wasn't exactly flawed - quite the opposite, the experience of one of his personalities taught him not to let his hubris rule over him. And with soul gestalts you get more than the sum of all ingredients - otherwise you could argue against the Emperor being powerful or wise by saying he was created from a bunch of Homo Habilis who had no idea about technology, genetics, politics, space travel or any of the other stuff the Emperor did.



It's not like it makes him stronger - or faster, and he doesn't seem to use the psychic aspect of the soul-gestalt. So is it just having the added experience of each exarch makes him a more well-rounded warrior?
But it does. The fact that Phoenix Lords have more S and T than Exarchs is a proof to that. So is the Crushing Blow power from the old codex. More souls means more energy to animate the suit - there's no tendons or muscle inside after all. This works both ways: some of the soul power has to be spent for basic functions, but sky is the limit when you have enough power. Also, there is evidence pointing towards Karandras using gestalt powers - he and his previous squad are described as continuously cloaked in shadow and half-visible. This leads to an interesting question: can a Phoenix Lord "run out of batteries" and lie dormant until someone finds the armour or does he go on forever until a death in battle?

Regardless, it's evident that Karandras dies at his own wish in the book. Now on the other hand stuff that Maugan Ra does, that's better measure of what Phoenix Lords can achieve.

Mánagarmr
24-11-2010, 20:30
No, Korlandril-Morlaniath, the protagonist, is the one who feeds him. The Eldar whom Karandras tried to save is Bechareth, reformed Dark Eldar Incubi. Karandras himself was a (proto)Dark Eldar before Arhra saved him, which is why he makes the sacrifice.

You'll have to forgive me, it's been a while since I read the novel - and it wasn't my favorite even then.


The Exarch wasn't exactly flawed - quite the opposite, the experience of one of his personalities taught him not to let his hubris rule over him. And with soul gestalts you get more than the sum of all ingredients - otherwise you could argue against the Emperor being powerful or wise by saying he was created from a bunch of Homo Habilis who had no idea about technology, genetics, politics, space travel or any of the other stuff the Emperor did.

The Emperor evolved along with humanity. He advanced as they advanced, I don't think that's a great argument - that because they were once Shamans, they should know nothing of technology.


But it does. The fact that Phoenix Lords have more S and T than Exarchs is a proof to that. So is the Crushing Blow power from the old codex. More souls means more energy to animate the suit - there's no tendons or muscle inside after all. This works both ways: some of the soul power has to be spent for basic functions, but sky is the limit when you have enough power. Also, there is evidence pointing towards Karandras using gestalt powers - he and his previous squad are described as continuously cloaked in shadow and half-visible. This leads to an interesting question: can a Phoenix Lord "run out of batteries" and lie dormant until someone finds the armour or does he go on forever until a death in battle?

I don't think older codices make the best stance, but I'll accept that.

My point was that the strength increase didn't seem very significant when compared to Primarch's. For instance, Corax punches through the door of a tank to get at the Iron Warriors inside.


Regardless, it's evident that Karandras dies at his own wish in the book. Now on the other hand stuff that Maugan Ra does, that's better measure of what Phoenix Lords can achieve.

Maugan Ra reads like a bad anime character! I apologize if you're fond of him - but his exploits make Calgar punching an Avatar look tame and completely believable. :(

Idaan
24-11-2010, 21:34
For instance, Corax punches through the door of a tank to get at the Iron Warriors inside. (...) Maugan Ra reads like a bad anime character! So yeah... :shifty:


But seriously, to each his own. I see the main difference in the fact that Primarchs are the heroes of Greek mythology, with their ridiculous feats of strength, messed up childhoods and abusive father figures. On the other hand the Phoenix Lords are heroes of Chinese wuxia stories and Indian epics - it's a very interesting fact that both these mythologies speak of "Seven Immortals", perfected human beings. The Chinese immortals were the students of Wang Chongyang and founders of the schools of taoism. The Indian immortals are several heroes of the Mahabharata, recurring throughout history. I'm probably dumbing down the original stories a lot as I have no education in eastern literature and religion, but my point is - the Phoenix Lords are all about doing backflips, palm-of-death attacks and running on the surface of water.

Mánagarmr
24-11-2010, 22:17
So yeah... :shifty:

Hey, Corax didn't solo a Tyranid bio-titan. I think punching a tank door is pretty tame to that. ;)


But seriously, to each his own. I see the main difference in the fact that Primarchs are the heroes of Greek mythology, with their ridiculous feats of strength, messed up childhoods and abusive father figures. On the other hand the Phoenix Lords are heroes of Chinese wuxia stories and Indian epics - it's a very interesting fact that both these mythologies speak of "Seven Immortals", perfected human beings. The Chinese immortals were the students of Wang Chongyang and founders of the schools of taoism. The Indian immortals are several heroes of the Mahabharata, recurring throughout history. I'm probably dumbing down the original stories a lot as I have no education in eastern literature and religion, but my point is - the Phoenix Lords are all about doing backflips, palm-of-death attacks and running on the surface of water.

As you said though, to each his own. :D

Captain Stern
24-11-2010, 23:41
More souls means more energy to animate the suit - there's no tendons or muscle inside after all. This works both ways: some of the soul power has to be spent for basic functions, but sky is the limit when you have enough power. Also, there is evidence pointing towards Karandras using gestalt powers - he and his previous squad are described as continuously cloaked in shadow and half-visible. This leads to an interesting question: can a Phoenix Lord "run out of batteries" and lie dormant until someone finds the armour or does he go on forever until a death in battle?

If it's as crude as that then why not just pump Exarch armour with souls from the Infinity Circuits? The Phoenix Lords could then go on to kill the Chaos Gods, the C'Tan and Chuck Norris single handedly (maybe then some of the Eldarphiles here will be happy, finally...).
I think Managarmr's less Dragonball Z-like interpretation is probably the most accurate, not to mention most subtle and sophisticated etc:


Originally posted by Mánagarmr:That's something to consider though. A phoenix lord is a psychic whirlpool of exarchs. Exarchs who can be killed in combat by heroes of rival factions, the example in this case being the marine sergeant. Karandras may run the show, but why does taking in flawed exarchs make him more powerful?

It's not like it makes him stronger - or faster, and he doesn't seem to use the psychic aspect of the soul-gestalt. So is it just having the added experience of each exarch makes him a more well-rounded warrior?

Clockwork-Knight
25-11-2010, 00:29
Hey, Corax didn't solo a Tyranid bio-titan.Neither did Maugan Ra. Iracundus or any other member could probably type you the exact quote, but it was one of those eternally falsely rememberd stuff like the emperor defeating and making the four chaos gods flee.

Captain Stern
25-11-2010, 00:36
He sliced the titan from neck to groin if memory serves. It was awesome! :rolleyes:

TheLaughingGod
25-11-2010, 00:49
If it's as crude as that then why not just pump Exarch armour with souls from the Infinity Circuits? The Phoenix Lords could then go on to kill the Chaos Gods, the C'Tan and Chuck Norris single handedly (maybe then some of the Eldarphiles here will be happy, finally...).
I think Managarmr's less Dragonball Z-like interpretation is probably the most accurate, not to mention most subtle and sophisticated etc:
His interpreation is inaccurate and one-dimensional.
The truth is that as demonstrated in the lore, the Phoenix Lords and the Exarchs have supernatural powers from their gesalt souls. The Phoenix Lords more so, being literally 10,000 year old living suits of armor, bound together by the originals Will and the souls of countless warriors.

Only Exarchs can provide the boost the Phoenix Lords need. Older powers had Crushing Blow and Burning Fist, each was the power of the souls themselves in the suit manifesting as supernatural abilities. This edition has seen a move away from that in the rules (thought not in the lore, curiously)

It's a complex and rich part of the path system, Exarchs and the warrior aspect shrines.

Though, of course Phoenix Lords still have those supernatural powers even in their rules. (Stealth, Battlefate, Acute Senses, etc)

Hellebore
25-11-2010, 02:09
Wrong. Its not just the Eldar, rather no other faction in 40K has as of yet managed to navigate the Warp with anywhere near the relative safely the Astronomicon provides (aside from Chaos, of course, who don't need it).

The Tau can't. The Eldar can't (if the webway every goes down they're screwed, and their Craftworlds cannot travel FTL to escape from any approaching doom). The Necrons use other non-warp means. They Tyrannids no longer travel FTL.


This is not true. Humanity travelled the galaxy without navigators. Orks do it. The eldar have the capacity to use warp drives and travel through the warp, they don't do this very often because it increases their risk to Slannesh.

The tau skim the warp, they don't go fully into the warp. But this has nothing to do with Navigators. They don't have proper warp drives. Navigators are a force multiplier. They are an edge humanity has over other races. But they have never been necessary for interstellar travel.

See Auric in the novel Farseer where he talks about warp travel.



Again a massive understatement. Navigation without the Astropath is akin to driving blindfolded and hoping you don't crash into a tree.


So I suppose the Navigator less (it's a navigator not an astropath, the latter is used for communication, not nagviation) Dark Age of human Technology all crashed and burned whilst simultaneously spreading across the galaxy? Or that the H'rud and Orks, having existed for millions of years, never manage to get anywhere?



Without benefit of another method of FTL travel there would be absolutely no way to maintain a galaxy-spanning empire similar to what the IoM has now. At best they would be able to maintain a small fiefdom in their personal area of space like the Tau do now - and even then they would still lose many ships to daemons in the warp.


The dangers of the warp sans navigators are warp storms. You need gellar field equivalents to protect from daemons. A navigator is not used for that purpose.

The Imperium doesn't hold its people together with navigators, it holds them together with astropaths. Without FTL communication galaxy spanning empires couldn't exist. Warp travel has and still does exist in the galaxy without navigators and doesn't kill off huge swaths of species in the attempt. It it sustainable, but slower. The Imperium still uses calculated warp jumps without navigators for small distances. The edge navigators provide is speed and safety. Other races using the warp have to sacrifice one for the other.



Some examples would be helpful.


I'll have to get back to you. It may have been in a novel. It could have been the Nicassar, Q'orl or H'rud. Unless someone else in the forum knows of what I'm referring and can point it out easier.



Again, wrong.
They may or may not be "warp constructs" - it is NEVER specified beyond your own imagination (not that there isn't anything wrong with a hyperactive imagination).


You know, just stating 'You're wrong' adds no weight to your argument.

Now I'm confused. Are you trying to say that the primarchs aren't powered by warp energy? Because being biological entities doesn't strengthen your position. They have DNA. DNA denatures at low temperatures. They use human muscle genes, human hearts and so on. The genetics of the primarchs is based within human DNA and human bodies aren't that resilient. Sure they were modified from this, but meat protein is still meat protein.

So them being warp powered is a necessity if they're going to be super.

How about this - in Fulgrim when he kills Manus warp energy pours out ghost busters style all over the place as Manus' 'container' is breached.

Or about how the Emperor and his scientists engineered the primarchs from human genes. They possess many if not all of the organs marines have, only naturally. See William King's 'The Wolf and the Lion' story about how the duel they had on earth after Horus' defeat where Russ realised the stupidity of what they were doing and offered his chest to the Lion. Just before he stabbed him to death he diverted his blow so it only cleaved through ONE of Russ' hearts.

Their souls burn brightly. Psykers can see this. As souls are warp energy, a more powerful soul is more warp energy.



Nevertheless, no warp constructs thus far are able to pass on a psychic imprint the way Primarchs do. Wraithguard or WL certainly can't - and neither can Greater Daemons, beyond their daemonhost.


I'm not sure what you mean. No warp entities have been able to change DNA so a species physical or spiritual evolution has been changed? Warp energy by itself can do this. Hence why daemons worlds are full of mutants, mutants that ar obviously still capable of reproducing or they'd be extinct.

In the Eye of Terror novel by Barrington J Bailey a Lord of Change within the warp uses warp energy to modify matter to build a space fleet. This is impermanent (and part of an overarching plot by other Lords of Change and tzeentch for amusement). There is a single planet that is a khorne daemon prince found in the ork codex. An entire planet that is a daemon prince. That's a pretty big warp impression right there.

When around greater daemons mortals are corrupted by them in specific ways. See for example Skarbrand whose presence actually messes with everyone's minds.

Or Keepers of Secrets whose presence can force people into acts of depravity just with its musk. Greater Daemons as avatars of their gods act as psionic amplifiers and can corrupt everything around them given enough time.

Sanguinius' death psychically affected his geneseed. A master biomancer psyker can change DNA as well. Eldar doctors use this to heal people. Fabius Bile uses warp energy to modify people. Warp energy is a mutating substance naturally. In the case of primarch imprints we have very specific directed 'mutations' towards certain areas, like the Black Rage.




Not at all, you just have to shoot a C'tan with a warp cannon.

Similarly, a Primarch may have other weaknesses. Even then, not all C'tan or Primarchs have equivalent power. Certainly the Nightbringer would be physically superior to the Deceiver. Claiming a Primarch is far lesser than a C'tan is again, only in your own imagination and unsupported by fluff.


Each C'tan was the power of a star given consciousness. If you dropped a naked primarch into a star, he would die. If you don't think he would, despite having hearts that can be pierced by swords, flesh that can be burnt, heads that can be chopped, backs that can be broken, off or brains that can be affected by lobotomies and enhancement circuitry by random planets (cf Angron), then there isn't much to talk about.

Sanguinius' blood is also used extensively in their geneseed implantation. So Sanguinius is obviously vulnerable to whatever kind of super needle they use to get it out.

In fact that blood may be the reason his psychic death scream changed his geneseed, being part of his being. Although at least in older information it was stated that the curse was from taking blood from his CORPSE which then affected them later. Basically that his death at horus' hands changed his own genetic makeup. Which wouldn't be a result of his psychic might so much as Horus' power to destroy him.

If you argue 'well it took a primarch to do some of those things', then all you need to do is find something that can produce the same force as a primarch to chop off another primarch's head. Because their weapons, whilst awesome, were still made of materials that exist within 40k. Adamantium and so on. Their quality would have been top notch, but they didn't use primarchtanium that conveniently disappeared when the heresy was over.

Thus a quality power sword used with the force of the Lion could pierce leman russ' heart. I would posit that the energy produced by a star contained within a material vessel would be enough for that.



Not only was the daemon a favored Champion of Khorne - Sanguinius absolutely wiped the floor with it, breaking its back over his knee. This wasn't a Guilliman-almost-died-but-falcon-punched-the-avatar scenario. The daemon only won when the BA were ambushed. Also, bear in mind that in those early days, the IoM knew almost nothing about fighting Daemons. With some blessed weapons and purity seals, even if ambushed, Sanguinius may have prevailed easily.

As it was, he can't have been hurt too badly because a short time later he managed to go toe-to-toe with the Chaos-powered Horus.


Not only was he a primarch of the Emperor, Kabanda absolutely wiped the floor with him, breaking his back over his knee. That's what the daemon did to Sanguinius FIRST, at Signis whatever.

I could also say 'if Kabanda had the anathemae, he could totally have avoided being defeated at the eternity gate'. What ifs aren't particularly helpful.

His back/legs were broken. He was unconscious for a length of time. during that time the blood angels went berserk. As a primarch he healed his wounds. Kabanda however as a daemon with no mortal shell can't be 'killed', only banished. This is true of the Phoenix Lords as well. A primarch cannot reincarnate and there is no suggestion that their souls lingered after death.

No 'Conrad Kurze' soul wandering the galaxy possessing his sons. When they die, they stay dead.



Warp corruption is random. In this case, the exact traits of the primarch are passed on. This presumably takes a being of additional power - seeing as 10,000 years on many of the legions still take after their progenitor, even after said progenitor may have long since passed on (Dorn, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus, perhaps Guilliman, etc.)


When it's a greater daemon, it's not. Their focus means that a Bloodthirster won't corrupt someone with the need for change for example.

As for your point about primarchs, that was true before they died. Because those traits are genetic. The geneseed altered their physical structure to resemble their primarch in stature and disposition. So it's got nothing to do with psychic imprinting and all to do with genetics.

See 'Little Horus' Aximand from the HH novels.




Ridiculous argument.

That's like saying a Sword-class escort is similar to an Emperor-class battleship, in that they are both ships and can travel FTL. Its an ultra-simplistic way of looking at it. Perhaps the complexity involved never crossed your mind.


Which part? Again, stating something like that isn't helping. Warp energy functions in a linear fashion, ironically. The more you have, the stronger it is.




No, the answer is, none. Neither the Old Ones nor the Chaos Gods have managed such a feat (at least, the Chaos Gods never bothered to try, or if you believe the OP they had to rely on the big E to do it for them).

This implies that, on intellect at least, the Emperor was on par with, if not superior to the other "God" entities.


The eldar have perfected this. Wraithbone will contain warp energy indefinitely and is even repaired with it. Wraithbone is like unobtainium, it does everything. It transfers energy, contains energy, acts as a communications network and can hold souls within.

I would say that most mortals are more 'intelligent' than the chaos gods because they aren't locked into a perpetual cycle of propagating one emotion. Tzeentch is 'smart' but so disjointed that intelligence doesn't mean much.

Anything holding eldar souls within it is doing what you're describing, using wraithbone rather than biology. Unlike a Primarch, a wraithbone wraithlord doesn't have blood, a heart or tire or eat. It is perpetually ready to go. The only limiting factor is the soul within, which is not apparent in exarchs or phoenix lords.



Being of pure warp energy is probably a handicap rather than a benefit. They may immortal, but only exist in a temporal state. In addition, they are only as tough as their vessel - bind a daemon in a cookie jar, if you break the jar, bye-bye daemon.
A primarch, however, is a lot harder to kill. A. Lot.


But once dead, they are dead. Unlike a warp entity, or any average eldar soul that can withstand death and even continue to exist in a physical form (ie wraith constructs and exarchs).

The warp entity is sent back to the warp until it can come back out again. Horus can only die once.



The fact remains, that the Inifintiy circuit did not even attempt to defend itself via psychic shields or wards. A powerful being or web construct? I think not.

So when I read '[...] the eldar slaughter more than one hundred battle-brothers.' On page 14 of the blood angels codex I am to infer that those battle brothers failed to defend themselves because they lost? Because your argument is that as the infinity circuit was defeated and the craftworld was destroyed, that they never defended themselves (circuit or flesh).

We know it was defeated. We know they have defences. Just as we know that more than one hundred battle brothers were 'slaughtered' and we know that space marines in general will defend themselves when attacked.

Hellebore

Idaan
25-11-2010, 09:33
He sliced the titan from neck to groin if memory serves. It was awesome! :rolleyes:

It wasn't a bio-titan, but something that had no name back then and now would probably be classed as Trygon Prime:


...Without warning, the ground in front of the Reapers burst open in a shower of verdant earth. A serpentine beast so vast it blotted out the sky reared over the Eldar line, curling back down to spit twin streams of pus-coloured bile into the ranks of the Reapers. Maugan Ra felt the agonising deaths of his charges as they spasmed and boiled, the alien ichor reducing them to skeletons in seconds. Maugan Ra put a pair of shuriken into each of its six segmented eyes, and began to run.

In the space of a few heartbeats, Maugan Ra had sprinted around the massive trunk of the alien behemoth and, slinging the Maugetar over his back, began to climb the chitinous plates ridging its back...The snake-beast reared up once more, twisting and shuddering, scrabbling claws trying to dislodge the Phoenix Lord as he climbed laboriously up its back. Maugan Ra swung with one hand, desperately trying to bring the blade of the Maugetar to bear. Suddenly, a taloned claw whipped across from the monster's midsection and speared Maugan Ra through the chest. He lost his grip as the serrated claw ripped free, and fell into the sea of aliens below.

The alien beast reared up once more, filling Maugan Ra's vision as its fang ringed maw plunged towards him. Faster than thought, the Phoenix Lord rolled aside, stood and swung the Maugetar so its blade faced upward, directly in the path of the beast. Uttering a single syllable, the Harvester of Souls became as immovable as rock. Down the monstrosity plunged, straight into the blade of the Maugetar and burrowing into the ground beyond, its momentum and colossal weight carrying it down under the earth once more. Maugan Ra remained immovable, and the beast ripped itself open on the ancient, powered blade of the Maugetar. It shuddered, screamed, and died.

All around the phoenix Lord, the small knot of surviving Dark Reapers gave a great shout, for the smaller aliens were fleeing in panic at the psychic shockwave caused by the death of the great beast."
None of the known tyranid bio-titans burst from the ground and the effect of its death on smaller swarms indicates that it was a synapse creature, not titan. The size is probably an exaggeration, as usual in 40k when no exact numbers are given.

merghmer
25-11-2010, 13:32
Every. Single. Race. Ever.

Congratulations, you completely failed to comprehend what I said.


Beginning with the humanity itself, which managed to spread across the galaxy during the DaoT without Navigators and the Astronomican.
Then you have the Orks (curiously missing from your list), Demiurg, Kroot, Hrud, Fra'al and every other race that appears in more than one sector of space. From FFG's RPG line we have Xeno devices called Immaterios Novis and Runecasters that can supplant a Navigator.
The Eldar can and do use normal FTL, but they do it only in direst circumstances when they have no other means of escape or reaching their target.

No one claimed that other races CAN'T navigate the warp, only that they cannot navigate with the relative safety that navigators provide.

Everything you've said pretty much proved my point.

Humanity spread out across the galaxy before the Chaos Gods fully attained conciousness and so did the Ork (or Krorks then). It would have been far easier to navigate back then before when the Warp was calmer. Since the fall of the Eldar and the awakening of Slaanesh the Warp has become so active that long-range warp travel without the Astronomicon would be akin to playing Russian roulette with a loaded gun. As it is, even now Ships getting lost in the warp are fairly common

The Eldar know this and this is why even though they are fully capable of warp travel they don't. The Orks do it as well, but then they actively encourage daemonic attraction just for a good fight, because, well, they're Orks.


We "do know" that he "probably" beat him? Then we don't know at all. Not to mention all the other variables in the scenario: what (if any) effect did the Talismans of Vaul have on the Dragon, did he go to sleep undisturbed, whether he landed on Earth or Mars (Earth is only implied in "Mechanicum" and it doesn't fit any of the tomb world criteria in Necron Codex), was he bound by the young races and deprived of his power, did he have a source of nourishment in his sleep, did he wake up (him "demanding virgins" contradicts Necron Codex which says that only two C'tan have woken up), when and where the duel took place, whether it was physical form of the Emperor vs the physical form of the Dragon or just battle of some portion of Dragon's energy vs. Emperor's psychic power, etc etc. "The most powerful C'tan" is also very, very vague when it comes creatures whose power depends so much on their nourishment. Depending on all these variables it could have been as easy as taking a lollipop from a disabled child or a great feat nobody has matched in the history of life in the universe.

He did do it though and it is so far the only recorded instance of a C'tan being defeated by anything other than another C'tan. The Eldar God Khaine tried and failed.

Thanatos_elNyx
25-11-2010, 13:53
He did do it though and it is so far the only recorded instance of a C'tan being defeated by anything other than another C'tan.

We don't know that.

The story is told as a half remembered delusion/dream.
The entity in question isn't confirmed to be a C'tan.

And if it were the Void Dragon it would violate several other pieces of more significant fluff
(i.e. Only 2 awake C'tan and the Deceiver being the only one that has been awake for a significant period of time).

Poseidal
25-11-2010, 14:02
Humanity spread out across the galaxy before the Chaos Gods fully attained conciousness and so did the Ork (or Krorks then). It would have been far easier to navigate back then before when the Warp was calmer. Since the fall of the Eldar and the awakening of Slaanesh the Warp has become so active that long-range warp travel without the Astronomicon would be akin to playing Russian roulette with a loaded gun. As it is, even now Ships getting lost in the warp are fairly common
Actually, the birth of Slaanesh calmed the warp storms. It was easier to travel after the Fall, which was when the Emperor set out.

Ponder this: wouldn't the Emperor himself have used Warp travel without the Astronomicon while carrying out the Great Crusade, being not sat at the Golden Throne? (note, not only him, but his other forces during the crusade)


He did do it though and it is so far the only recorded instance of a C'tan being defeated by anything other than another C'tan. The Eldar God Khaine tried and failed.
Khaine won that, if it's just defeated. As for destroyed, even in the dream sequence the Emperor didn't do that; in fact, he didn't shatter the shell of the C'Tan like Khaine did.

And that's if you take it at the value of it actually being the VD (who we know was injured by a Talisman years before so would be recuperating).

merghmer
25-11-2010, 14:14
This is not true. Humanity travelled the galaxy without navigators. Orks do it. The eldar have the capacity to use warp drives and travel through the warp, they don't do this very often because it increases their risk to Slannesh.

The tau skim the warp, they don't go fully into the warp. But this has nothing to do with Navigators. They don't have proper warp drives. Navigators are a force multiplier. They are an edge humanity has over other races. But they have never been necessary for interstellar travel.

See Auric in the novel Farseer where he talks about warp travel.

Congratulations on someone else missing the point. :)
See my reply to Idaan.


So I suppose the Navigator less (it's a navigator not an astropath, the latter is used for communication, not nagviation) Dark Age of human Technology all crashed and burned whilst simultaneously spreading across the galaxy? Or that the H'rud and Orks, having existed for millions of years, never manage to get anywhere?

They couldn't do so now, not with the warp the state that it is in now.


The dangers of the warp sans navigators are warp storms. You need gellar field equivalents to protect from daemons. A navigator is not used for that purpose.

Wrong.
You may get lost in the warp as well, being exposed to all sorts of OTHER warp dangers, such as void wales and being mutated by warp exposure (see legion of the damned).


The Imperium doesn't hold its people together with navigators, it holds them together with astropaths. Without FTL communication galaxy spanning empires couldn't exist. Warp travel has and still does exist in the galaxy without navigators and doesn't kill off huge swaths of species in the attempt. It it sustainable, but slower. The Imperium still uses calculated warp jumps without navigators for small distances. The edge navigators provide is speed and safety. Other races using the warp have to sacrifice one for the other.

AND navigators, to transport supplies and troops, Inquisitors, etc from one end of the Imperium to another.

No empire the size of the IoM would last 10,000 years if just short warp "hops" (ala Tau warp skips) were the only way of space travel.


Now I'm confused. Are you trying to say that the primarchs aren't powered by warp energy? Because being biological entities doesn't strengthen your position. They have DNA. DNA denatures at low temperatures. They use human muscle genes, human hearts and so on. The genetics of the primarchs is based within human DNA and human bodies aren't that resilient. Sure they were modified from this, but meat protein is still meat protein.

So them being warp powered is a necessity if they're going to be super.

How about this - in Fulgrim when he kills Manus warp energy pours out ghost busters style all over the place as Manus' 'container' is breached.

Or about how the Emperor and his scientists engineered the primarchs from human genes. They possess many if not all of the organs marines have, only naturally. See William King's 'The Wolf and the Lion' story about how the duel they had on earth after Horus' defeat where Russ realised the stupidity of what they were doing and offered his chest to the Lion. Just before he stabbed him to death he diverted his blow so it only cleaved through ONE of Russ' hearts.

Their souls burn brightly. Psykers can see this. As souls are warp energy, a more powerful soul is more warp energy.

Yes. They have powerful souls and a large warp presence.
However the fluff never claims (nor even implies IMO) what you are saying, that the emperor fuelled organic constructs using the warp.

He may indeed have given a portion of his own power to his sons - which is NOT the same as a daemonhost or wraithguard. Not even close.


I'm not sure what you mean. No warp entities have been able to change DNA so a species physical or spiritual evolution has been changed? Warp energy by itself can do this. Hence why daemons worlds are full of mutants, mutants that ar obviously still capable of reproducing or they'd be extinct.

In the Eye of Terror novel by Barrington J Bailey a Lord of Change within the warp uses warp energy to modify matter to build a space fleet. This is impermanent (and part of an overarching plot by other Lords of Change and tzeentch for amusement). There is a single planet that is a khorne daemon prince found in the ork codex. An entire planet that is a daemon prince. That's a pretty big warp impression right there.

That, however, is WITHIN the EoT.

A place where GW constantly stresses that normal rules of physics do not prevail and nothing ordinary applies.

Notice that this couldn't happen in the material realm.


When around greater daemons mortals are corrupted by them in specific ways. See for example Skarbrand whose presence actually messes with everyone's minds.

Or Keepers of Secrets whose presence can force people into acts of depravity just with its musk. Greater Daemons as avatars of their gods act as psionic amplifiers and can corrupt everything around them given enough time.

Daemons corrupting something around them when they are present with their warp presence (due to thinning of the boundaries between the warp and material realm) is significantly different and less complex than ones geneseed containing a psychic "echo" up to 10,000 years after one has passed on.



Each C'tan was the power of a star given consciousness. If you dropped a naked primarch into a star, he would die. If you don't think he would, despite having hearts that can be pierced by swords, flesh that can be burnt, heads that can be chopped, backs that can be broken, off or brains that can be affected by lobotomies and enhancement circuitry by random planets (cf Angron), then there isn't much to talk about.

As has been noted in this thread, Kurze climbed out of a vat of molten lava as an infant.

Ferrus Mannus had few ill-effects holding a Necron construct under a river of Lava until it died. Why should we suppose that they would die if dropped into a star?

And C'tan had no material form when their diet consisted of stars. If their metallic bodies were now dropped into stars, who is to say they would survive?


Sanguinius' blood is also used extensively in their geneseed implantation. So Sanguinius is obviously vulnerable to whatever kind of super needle they use to get it out.

In fact that blood may be the reason his psychic death scream changed his geneseed, being part of his being. Although at least in older information it was stated that the curse was from taking blood from his CORPSE which then affected them later. Basically that his death at horus' hands changed his own genetic makeup. Which wouldn't be a result of his psychic might so much as Horus' power to destroy him.

That seems to be a false assumption. Considering Dorn, Ferrus Manus and Guilliman are dead and their geneseed has not been altered.


If you argue 'well it took a primarch to do some of those things', then all you need to do is find something that can produce the same force as a primarch to chop off another primarch's head. Because their weapons, whilst awesome, were still made of materials that exist within 40k. Adamantium and so on. Their quality would have been top notch, but they didn't use primarchtanium that conveniently disappeared when the heresy was over.

Thus a quality power sword used with the force of the Lion could pierce leman russ' heart. I would posit that the energy produced by a star contained within a material vessel would be enough for that.

Of course Primarchs can be killed, given a powerful enough foe (not necessarily another Primarch of course). This doesn't make them any less awesome, nor their creator any less powerful and intelligent.


Not only was he a primarch of the Emperor, Kabanda absolutely wiped the floor with him, breaking his back over his knee. That's what the daemon did to Sanguinius FIRST, at Signis whatever.

I could also say 'if Kabanda had the anathemae, he could totally have avoided being defeated at the eternity gate'. What ifs aren't particularly helpful.

His back/legs were broken. He was unconscious for a length of time. during that time the blood angels went berserk. As a primarch he healed his wounds. Kabanda however as a daemon with no mortal shell can't be 'killed', only banished. This is true of the Phoenix Lords as well. A primarch cannot reincarnate and there is no suggestion that their souls lingered after death.

As noted, he was ambushed and that was 10,000 years ago when the IoM barely knew how to combat daemons. Now, circumstances would probably be different.




As for your point about primarchs, that was true before they died. Because those traits are genetic. The geneseed altered their physical structure to resemble their primarch in stature and disposition. So it's got nothing to do with psychic imprinting and all to do with genetics.

See 'Little Horus' Aximand from the HH novels.

I don't agree. Then why do the chapters from the cursed founding have a predilection to fall to Chaos? For some (World Eaters, Word Bearers) it may be understandable, but certain Primarchs had little in their disposition alone (barring circumstances) to be vulnerable to Chaos. See Death Guard or Iron Warriors. If it was so simplistic then a legion with DG geneseed but nurtured right would be as impervious to falling as the Ultramarines. But this isn't so.



Which part? Again, stating something like that isn't helping. Warp energy functions in a linear fashion, ironically. The more you have, the stronger it is.

Even assuming Primarchs are merely any old "warp energy" in a biological shell, injecting that much warp energy into a being, permanently, is so complex that it was never done and has since never been done by any other faction - even Chaos - implying that only the Emperor was capable of such a feat.



The eldar have perfected this. Wraithbone will contain warp energy indefinitely and is even repaired with it. Wraithbone is like unobtainium, it does everything. It transfers energy, contains energy, acts as a communications network and can hold souls within.

It is also fragile as hell. You can't make a superman primarch out of wraithbone, or, as one of my Eldar-playing mates calls it, wraithglass, after his wraithguards get wiped once too often by a lucky roll.



I would say that most mortals are more 'intelligent' than the chaos gods because they aren't locked into a perpetual cycle of propagating one emotion. Tzeentch is 'smart' but so disjointed that intelligence doesn't mean much.

Anything holding eldar souls within it is doing what you're describing, using wraithbone rather than biology. Unlike a Primarch, a wraithbone wraithlord doesn't have blood, a heart or tire or eat. It is perpetually ready to go. The only limiting factor is the soul within, which is not apparent in exarchs or phoenix lords.

Comparing a simplistic construct like a wraithlord to an actual Primarch is ridiculous.

A phoenix lord may be more comparable but can only affect the exarch that puts on his/her suit of armor. A primarch can affect thousands or even tens of thousands of his sons, for (apparently) infinity. In 10,000 years, the effect hasn't even waned.

merghmer
25-11-2010, 14:23
Actually, the birth of Slaanesh calmed the warp storms. It was easier to travel after the Fall, which was when the Emperor set out.

Ponder this: wouldn't the Emperor himself have used Warp travel without the Astronomicon while carrying out the Great Crusade, being not sat at the Golden Throne? (note, not only him, but his other forces during the crusade)

You are correct.

I was mistaken. Warp travel without navigators and the Astronomicon actually became near impossible during the Age of Strife, even before the fall. Doesn't change the point, though!

During the Great Crusade, the Emperor WAS the Astronomicon.....


Khaine won that, if it's just defeated. As for destroyed, even in the dream sequence the Emperor didn't do that; in fact, he didn't shatter the shell of the C'Tan like Khaine did.

And that's if you take it at the value of it actually being the VD (who we know was injured by a Talisman years before so would be recuperating).

From my understanding the battle was more or less inconclusive.

Although his necrodermis was shattered, Khaine was also injured and had to withdraw. Khaine may have "won" but didn't get a decisive edge over the Nightbringer, although both Khaine and the Eldar race suffered permanent scars.

Poseidal
25-11-2010, 15:26
During the Great Crusade, the Emperor WAS the Astronomicon.....

Are you sure? Having a beacon that moves around constantly and changing direction doesn't strike me as too useful...



From my understanding the battle was more or less inconclusive.

Although his necrodermis was shattered, Khaine was also injured and had to withdraw. Khaine may have "won" but didn't get a decisive edge over the Nightbringer, although both Khaine and the Eldar race suffered permanent scars.
It's more conclusive than the battle with the dragon (we don't even know if it was real, let alone if there was a void dragon).

While the Khaine one is also myth, it's clearer as to what happened and a clear victory, and he did not withdraw but was the last man standing:

"Kaelis Ra burst apart in an explosion of silvered shards that nearly cleft Khaine in two as the Yngir's essence tore free of physical form. The silvered warriors around him fell to the earth as the impact spread ever outward, returning to the ground from whence they came. Soon, only Khaine remained, howling his victory.

But victory came at a price. Shards of the Yngir's flesh, driven deep into Khaine's body by the cataclysmic demise of his foe, melted in the fires of the War God's wrath. The silver poison flowed into his bloodstream, forever tainting his physical incarnation with the aspect of the Reaper."

Which could very well be allegorical for him as a warp entity absorbing material from realspace and manifesting in a more permanent way. Khaine was infamous for slaughtering the Eldar, which maybe this physical form allowed him to do and therefore is the 'taint'. But that's for another discussion.

Thanatos_elNyx
25-11-2010, 15:59
It was the very definition of a Pyrrhic Victory.

Khaine technically won but the Void Dragon came out of it the better.

Idaan
25-11-2010, 17:38
No one claimed that other races CAN'T navigate the warp, only that they cannot navigate with the relative safety that navigators provide.

The Navigators don't increase safety, they increase speed. See Rogue Trader RPG for how calculated jumps are safe and are actually the method that the majority of Imperial space traffic (ie the chartist ships) use. The only problem with it is that you can safely calculate only jumps below 5 light years. But this limit is self-enforced by the fact that the Imperium refuses to use true AI. Other races don't have that problem and as said, there are xenotech devices that supplant Navigators.


Humanity spread out across the galaxy before the Chaos Gods fully attained conciousness and so did the Ork (or Krorks then). It would have been far easier to navigate back then before when the Warp was calmer. Since the fall of the Eldar and the awakening of Slaanesh the Warp has become so active that long-range warp travel without the Astronomicon would be akin to playing Russian roulette with a loaded gun. As it is, even now Ships getting lost in the warp are fairly commonNot true for the reasons previous posters already stated, ie: Slaanesh actually calming the warp. And you fail to account for the minor races that created their own empires using warp travel after M31. Or even the ones that started travelling throughout the galaxy at all - ie Kroot.


The Eldar know this and this is why even though they are fully capable of warp travel they don't. The Orks do it as well, but then they actively encourage daemonic attraction just for a good fight, because, well, they're Orks.
That's not dependable on the Navigators, but the Geller fields. And you're wrong about Orks attracting daemons - they're generally less attractive to them. Add to that the fact that their gods actively protect them and that all the Orks do during warp transit is chanting "'ere we go 'ere we go". No higher brain functions = no daemons.


It is also fragile as hell. You can't make a superman primarch out of wraithbone, or, as one of my Eldar-playing mates calls it, wraithglass, after his wraithguards get wiped once too often by a lucky roll.Quite the opposite, it's one of the durable substances in the universe (after the living metal, more durable than adamantium), which is why the only Eldar constructs made entirely out of it, Wraithlords and Wraithguard have Toughness unmatched by other warmachines.


He did do it though and it is so far the only recorded instance of a C'tan being defeated by anything other than another C'tan. The Eldar God Khaine tried and failed. That was the whole point of my previous post: he didn't fight the Void Dragon at the peak of its power like Khaine fought the Nightbringer. The Dragon was weakened by the young races attack, but we don't know the degree. It could have been as easy as the Emperor coming to Mars, seeing him in his prison, "rolling for mastery" and getting the idea to use him for the prophecy. Probably wasn't, but the point is WE DON'T KNOW the circumstance.

Son of Sanguinius
25-11-2010, 21:41
Idaan, is there much point in debating warhammer with someone who insists wraithbone is "fragile as hell"?

Captain Stern
25-11-2010, 22:11
Just because there's a superficial similarity between the Emperor's collective nature and Eldar Exarch spirit stone circuits, doesn't mean that they are comparable in scope or even designed to achieve the same results. You can't use one to prove the other.

While there are many examples in the background of psykers combining their psychic energies to achieve a result far beyond what they might be capable of individually (Grey Knights etc) this doesn't mean that the same principle applies in the same way to feats of physical prowess. While it's reasonable to assume there'd be some benefit, at least in some cases, anything else is wishful thinking.
What about common sense: What extra benefit would an Aspect Warrior who's recently become an Exarch bring to, say, Asurmen when he dons the armour and reawakens the Phoenix Lord? Is it reasonable to think that the Phoenix Lord becomes any better at fighting? Of course not. The Exarch was probably hundreds if not thousands of times worse than the original Phoenix Lord at every aspect of fighting, but combined they're going to be better? That doesn't make any sense. However, the Exarch, when he was an Aspect Warrior might have figured out a way to, for example, stun an Ork in an especially novel way by driving his finger into its left temple at a certain degree and speed that no one in the spirit stone collective knew about before, so that gets added into the arsenal so to speak. I'm fairly certain this is the kind of thing the writers had in mind when they talked about the spirit pool in Exarch armours, and not this Dragonball Z monstrosity that's relentlessly pushed by Hellebore et al on Warseer.

Do additional Eldar spirit stones increase the psychic power of the Exarch/Phoenix Lord? There's an argument for that, but it wouldn't be much of an increase even if it were true.
Yes, as everyone knows, Eldar souls are considerably more potent than human souls. However they are not more potent than the souls of human psykers . Depending on who you read, the souls of human psykers are short lived bonfires to the long lived candles of the more developed Eldar psykers (B.King-Farseer). Exarch suits are studded with the spirit stones of Eldar warriors, not Eldar warlocks, farseers etc. Regarding the Emperor, it's still a mystery what the shamans actually were. They might have been normal psykers or psychic humans of a different order entirely.

If it's as Hellebore and others describe, that the sky is the limit, then why aren't appropriate spirit stones routinely sought out and added to the circuits of Exarch suits, and then others made when they run out of space for more stones? Why not do something similar with Warlocks and Farseers especially since they're powerful psykers who would definetely benefit from having a pool of other psykers to amplify their powers? Why don't they do it? Clearly, the answer is this isn't how it works.

Granted, while certain descriptions of Exarchs in the background leave some room for the kind of speculation we've seen here the simple fact is that these... "interpretations" are in wild contradiction to how Exarchs behave in the background, the stories, not to mention the TT, all the way back to when they first appeared in 2nd ED 40k.

Iracundus
25-11-2010, 22:53
If it's as Hellebore and others describe, that the sky is the limit, then why aren't appropriate spirit stones routinely sought out and added to the circuits of Exarch suits, and then others made when they run out of space for more stones? Why not do something similar with Warlocks and Farseers especially since they're powerful psykers who would definetely benefit from having a pool of other psykers to amplify their powers? Why don't they do it? Clearly, the answer is this isn't how it works.


Eldar psykers ARE described as using spirit stones to augment their powers, and it isn't the skill or lack of skill of the soul in the stone that appears relevant but the energy of the soul that is being used and drawn upon. In the latest edition, it allows them to use more powers. In 2nd edition, it provided more psychic power cards, in effect acting like a battery of psychic energy.



Granted, while certain descriptions of Exarchs in the background leave some room for the kind of speculation we've seen here the simple fact is that these... "interpretations" are in wild contradiction to how Exarchs behave in the background, the stories, not to mention the TT, all the way back to when they first appeared in 2nd ED 40k.

The addition of a new relatively inexperienced soul does not adversely affect the overall skill level of an Exarch as shown by Korlandril in Path of the Warrior, and added a new flavor into the old Exarch's taught routines.

It is with regards to the more supernatural powers of Exarchs and Phoenix Lords that it appears more a matter of the pool of psychic energy rather than just a matter of the skill of the new soul joining the pool. Take Asurmen's Battle Fate for example. That is a clear supernatural ability when he takes hits that should by all rights vaporize him, and when there is no clear force field or other technological means detectable. The aforementioned Crushing Blow and Burning Fist abilities also are relevant because it amounts to the Eldar striking at far above their natural strength, and in Burning Fist's case shattering high tech armor with their hands. In background, we have another clearly supernatural act in Maugan Ra becoming the immovable object on Iyanden when a Tyranid creature that sounds like a variant of a Trygon Prime dived on top of him. No amount of skill is going to help when several tons of alien flesh comes crashing down directly on you. It becomes a matter of physics, or in this case physics modified by supernatural/psychic energy fueled abilities, as Maugan Ra still remained immovable and the Trygon sliced itself up upon his blade.

Hellebore
25-11-2010, 23:00
The experience adds to the whole. That aspect still has a whole life of experiences and solutions he's come up with for them. The more life experiences added to the mix, the more situations the person will be able to counter. If they're fighting an ork in a specific scenario in specific environment, they may have a memory of doing almost exactly the same thing and the methods used to deal with it. The soul doen't have to be 'better' to still provide more knowledge and ability.

But there would be diminishing returns in terms of that knowledge. But there wouldn't be for the power of the soul and its ability to draw on the warp. Souls are warp energy. More warp energy is more powerful than less warp energy. If it wasn't then a single soul could exceed khorne in power. But Khorne is made up of countless souls and he is very powerful, even if many of those souls are of the most ignorant sentient people on the planet. So the power of the chaos gods shows just how powerful a conglomerate of souls can be even if they aren't smart or adding much to the over all gestalt. Their battery power alone is enough.

The same argument can be applied to the emperor. Each soul adds to the whole's power, but the knowledge base will be a diminishing return. After all, they were neolithic or even palaeolithic non human hominids. The most advanced knowledge they had was how to hit something with a rock.

They were REALLY good at that because of the amount of times they'd reincarnated, but adding several thousand masters of the rock together isn't going to produce a rocket scientist. That came much later when the emperor began learning alongside humanity.

Which is actually pretty hypocritical and why I posited that he changed his own 'purpose'. The Shamans were trying to FIGHT industrialism and civilisation, not join with it. Yet the emperor then becomes the most tech savvy human in the world? For him to do what it described his purpose as being, he'd have to be a hippy in cave preaching tree hugging to anyone that walked by. Or he would destroy nacent civilisations to force them back to nature.

Thus, even if the gestalt receives diminishing levels of useful knowledge (each person that merges with a phoenix lord will probably bring at least one variable they'd never encountered and the means to survive it), it still brings raw power in the form of a soul's energy. And as the chaos gods and their daemons show, you don't need useful souls to be more powerful.

EDIT: As for the nature of psychic energy used by Exarchs, it says as much in the eldar codex:

"It is the presence of this spirit pool of raw psychic energy that gives the suit and warrior (for the two are indistinguishable) their special warrior powers."

Hellebore

Iracundus
25-11-2010, 23:08
Which is actually pretty hypocritical and why I posited that he changed his own 'purpose'. The Shamans were trying to FIGHT industrialism and civilisation, not join with it. Yet the emperor then becomes the most tech savvy human in the world? For him to do what it described his purpose as being, he'd have to be a hippy in cave preaching tree hugging to anyone that walked by. Or he would destroy nacent civilisations to force them back to nature.


I don't think the shamans were explicitly trying to fight industrialism and civilization. They were trying to uphold the values and state of mind that they had known when the warp was calm. However it appears the Emperor's attempts to foster such values was repeatedly foiled because humanity had already grown too numerous and moved beyond the simple hunter gather subsistence lifestyle known by the shamans. However, there is not record of the Emperor at any point trying to explicitly reverse the technological or sociological clock and revert humanity to a new Stone Age. It seemed the Emperor was trying to foster the old values within the system of civilization and failed.

abasio
26-11-2010, 05:56
The All-Father bested Russ in an honor duel, that makes him leagues ahead of any xeno filth. :D

But he failed to out-drink him or out-eat Russ proving he is indeed lightweight :P
A drunk Emperor would be a sight to behold :D

Of the Emperor's power: I don't think he was a god in the sense of what I think a god is. I think a god doesn't have to omnipresent or omnipotent but they should have power that would make people think they were. The Chaos gods are not omnipotent but they have the sort of power that it is very difficult to see the limits of their power. The Emperor it seemed had quite clearly defined limits when he walked among his people: he couldn't be many places at once, he couldn't level worlds with a thought, he couldn't bring his son back to life and he couldn't save his sons from corruption. Hell, he didn't even have the nerve to face Angron after he kidnapped him and left that task to the Astartes of the Dusk Raiders legion. Not god-like at all.

One could go as far to say that the Emperor is a demigod if you view his powers as being close to the gods' even though he is not one, but I don't think his powers come all that close.

If the Emperor is not a god, then can his gene sons be demigods? In the books they are often referred to as demigods of battle but I always took this to mean that they are just the finest warriors and leaders on the battle field. Just like I am a sex god; it doesn't mean that I have omnipotent power to control everyone's sex life or omnipresent power to spy on lovers, just that I am extremely adept at the act itself :shifty: (OK, ignore the pronoun in the last example :P but it is an example of how we refer to people and misuse the word god or demigod).

The Emperor is powerful, the most powerful human who lived up until a point and he had the age that gave him experience to wield such power. Some psykers in M41 I think could actually outstrip the Emperor of old in raw power however they lack the experience to use the power that the Emperor built up.

What the Emperor has subsequently become since his ascention to the golden throne though is a different matter altogether though. I think now the Emperor as warp entity could pose more of a challenge when taking on Russ in a drinking competition :angel:

Idaan
26-11-2010, 12:59
Idaan, is there much point in debating warhammer with someone who insists wraithbone is "fragile as hell"?

Well, generally there isn't much point in this thread at all, because we've discussed it a thousand times already. And the only new evidence since the last time (the daemon in "First Heretic" calling the Emperor "one of the most powerful psychic presences in the history of life") hasn't even been mentioned. But I'm too weak-willed to stop replying.


I don't think the shamans were explicitly trying to fight industrialism and civilization. They were trying to uphold the values and state of mind that they had known when the warp was calm. However it appears the Emperor's attempts to foster such values was repeatedly foiled because humanity had already grown too numerous and moved beyond the simple hunter gather subsistence lifestyle known by the shamans. However, there is not record of the Emperor at any point trying to explicitly reverse the technological or sociological clock and revert humanity to a new Stone Age. It seemed the Emperor was trying to foster the old values within the system of civilization and failed.Actually, you can make an argument that they did. Their suicide and birth of the Emperor coincide with the Neolithic Revolution, when the foundations of modern society were set. The 8000 BC date marks the move from hunter-gatherer to farmer, the building of the first city, the creation of state and social order as we know it now. When people started living together, famines and plagues became a great danger while the farmers started worshipping the turning seasons as the first gods of fertility. First large-scale wars were waged. Power struggles started. People of high social status experienced boredom for the first time and started creating art for art's sake and indulging themselves. None of this was possible before. In short, the Neolithic Revolution created the Chaos gods (dormant at first if you follow the LatD background) and rapid population growth made them swell in strength. To the shamans, thousands of years old and attuned to nature, reverting humanity to previous lifestyle would have been a logical solution.
It's extrapolation so YMMV but I think that it's worth pondering.

Iracundus
26-11-2010, 13:35
Actually, you can make an argument that they did. Their suicide and birth of the Emperor coincide with the Neolithic Revolution, when the foundations of modern society were set. The 8000 BC date marks the move from hunter-gatherer to farmer, the building of the first city, the creation of state and social order as we know it now. When people started living together, famines and plagues became a great danger while the farmers started worshipping the turning seasons as the first gods of fertility. First large-scale wars were waged. Power struggles started. People of high social status experienced boredom for the first time and started creating art for art's sake and indulging themselves. None of this was possible before. In short, the Neolithic Revolution created the Chaos gods (dormant at first if you follow the LatD background) and rapid population growth made them swell in strength. To the shamans, thousands of years old and attuned to nature, reverting humanity to previous lifestyle would have been a logical solution.
It's extrapolation so YMMV but I think that it's worth pondering.

I'm aware of why that might be a logical extrapolation however the thing is the Emperor is never described trying to revert humanity to a hunter gatherer existence although he tried to promote harmony within civilization. His attempts to foster the old harmonious warp mentality may have failed perhaps because of that, but it is also possible the Emperor realized that it was impossible to turn back the clock technologically and sociologically.

Spare Change
26-11-2010, 22:55
And the only new evidence since the last time (the daemon in "First Heretic" calling the Emperor "one of the most powerful psychic presences in the history of life") hasn't even been mentioned.

I did mention it actually, on page four. It was in spoiler tags, so perhaps that's why it seems to have been passed over.

grayghost
01-12-2010, 01:46
Isn't he the end result of Human evolution?

Kayuga.another-Hair-etic
11-02-2011, 09:50
Firstly, greetings to all the faithful servants of the (false) Emperor, all the xeno-lovers and to the perverted minds of Chaos followers.

The name is Kayuga, verily enhanced by the silly and well known pun of the Hair-etic as to emphasize which 'race' or 'belief' or 'awesomesauce' i adhere to.

Chaos is my game, Nurgle is my God.

Kudos to MvS, Hellebore, Son of Sanguinius, Managarm and many others in this topic that provided a bountiful supply of information and generally, food for thought.

I stumbled across this thread by sheer chance, after watching the Ultramarines film a week or so ago, that promptly initiated another one of those sleepless nights shifting from codex to codex and my Black Library books for references.

Glad as always to find like-minded people, not in the sense of agreeing with everything, rather in the shared belief that War40k is simply the only sci-fi universe worth having theological/religious and technical discussions on.
Call me a chaos romantic if you will (wat?) but i believe that the core reason War40k as a whole is so appealing to readers/players/fans, is this idea of subjectivity. Hence this beautiful discussion i found in here.

Subjectivity here can be best explained by this example:
I already mentioned that i am a Chaos follower. By that verdict, i also firmly believe that part of the appeal Chaos has for me (besides the corruption, mutation and using demons) is the simple fact that Chaos is the....
Underdog. (i think i just pressed the Flame War button...)
Whereby i can argue that since the Empire of Man has a billion worlds and untold manpower/resources/potential/awesomeness, the Necrons have 60-million-years-old technology and we are just cattle, the Eldar are less numerous but can predict the future, the Tyranids are endless etc etc etc...

I base my 'argument' on the fact that Chaos, evil and corrupted though it may be, is not actually the worst thing or the most numerous threat. And what are the Chaos Gods anyway, but the projections of our greatest fears and sins/decadence. They 'try' to corrupt you but you do have a choice. You can either believe or choose not to.While in the Imperium of Man there is NO choice, you either believe the Emperor is your savior or you die. At least with Chaos i have a choice of 4 different evil ideas to choose from(Nurgle), as opposed to Imperials who value 1.
Of course i am not completely right, of course there are gaps in my argument, hence the whole point of debating in here.

Now to briefly touch the subjects you did here and offer my own view, which by no means is an attempt to educate you, you seem well versed in the subject as it is. i will just point 1-2 things that might help future readers in search of more explanations and as an attempt to share my tuppence with the OP and his simple (yet difficult to answer) question.

The Nature of the Emperor and his Power
The main issue here that was presented with equally strong arguments as far as his Power is concerned, was the distinction between the Emperor's volume of power and his actual skill in using it. In order to further elaborate on that, the Nature of the Emperor has to be addressed first.
The Emperor was born 10.000 ago, based on our current calendar, during 8.000BC. He makes his appearance public at 28.000AD, so that would make him 36.000 years old. What was he 'made' of? As we all know the Shamans projected themselves in the Warp through sacrifice (birth of a God? open to interpretation, he might as well be another Chaos god bound in Human form...hence one of the reasons Chaos labels him as FALSE, FALSE not because he isn't a god, but because he is a God somewhere else) and reincarnated one year later as the Emperor.

This idea of the Emperor being a Collective of souls rather than 1 single superawesomegenius of a human, can be best seen here (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor). (scroll down right at the bottom of the page and read the extract from "The Inquisition War")
My view is exactly what that passage describes, it is not the simple substitution of "I" with "We", it is the fact that each sentence he says can be seen as a dialogue between the myriad egos,ids,personalities,souls, whichever title we want to label them with, as if they are continuously reasserting, evaluating and reassuring themselves through constant debate.

As MvS correctly pointed out, the idea of 'godhood' is totally subjective. After all, for a tree hugger the tree is his God (or even the Hug or act of Hugging itself...), for an alcoholic we can even argue that alcohol is his God (the Salvation, the only thing that brings some peace of mind to his restless soul, or as we label it satisfy his addiction). Subjectivity is a beautiful idea.

To further understand why the Emperor can be a God (as an idea) in this universe, we can compare him with the Chaos Gods, who/which at least reside in the Immaterium and are actually engaged in the Great Game (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Great_Game).
Just like the Chaos Gods, the Emperor's attention is engaged in a myriad different actions. The Chaos Gods paused their Great Game but an instant to initiate the Horus Heresy, a simple instant based on the untold time they've spent dealing with each other. The Emperor's Great Game on the other hand is split into the Astronomican, his own Primarchs who shared a piece of his essence (not just DNA) etc.

What this line of reasoning translates to is the 'excuse' that allows a simple Ork Warboss (mighty though they may be) to actually even get close and tackle the Emperor, saved by Horus. Deliberate lore addition since it further reinforces the bond between the Emperor and his favorite Primarch and makes the Fall even nastier. Also this is why he gets wounded and goes on a 10.000 year old sick leave, this is why we never hear of him using his psychic might to mow down alien hordes or subjugate whole planets just by thinking about it.
A) he knows what he can do and he deliberately doesn't create a huge ruckus, since he doesn't want his Legions and Empire to think it is safe to use psychic powers even at the smallest scale
B)assuming his power is a total of 100%, 90% goes to administration, even when we had him walking amongst the living, leading his Great Crusade.

To put it in layman's terms, the God Emperor after the Age of Strife, simply had a lot on his mind.


Comparing the Emperor/Primarchs with Chaos Gods/Demi-Gods/Greater Demons/C'tan gods

Again, i will quote MvS' post on page 6 (for the sake of not making this reply even longer i haven't directly quoted it)
He gives a good description on how we can 'measure' the hierarchy of raw power between the different Gods or Elites within a faction.
The only thing i do want to add to this description, is the clear portrayal of Gods both as beings of 'energy/thought/Warp' and something that i can fit into a Land Raider and take for a ride.
The problem here is that we have the Chaos Gods that are doing their thing in the Warp and we consider them pretty damn powerful. So when they project a part of themselves into a Greater Demon, they dont get any weaker. (it is the Demi-Gods that will completely vanish INTO the Greater Demon they create due to insufficient 'energy/faith' pool to remain in the Warp)
However, and this is the real problem, we have the C'tan who were feasting on Stars and they were able to take form in our reality by the use of Necrodermis, the special alloy Necrons use. So they created a vessel to hold a god.
The question that arises is that who can tell me that the vessel in question has the potential to hold the whole of the C'tan essence and not lose a portion of the power the God has during the transfer? So, is the Nightbringer, the Deceiver etc just as powerful in their exoskeletons walking around, as they were when they were feasting on Stars?

I think not. For the same reason the Greater Demons, Horus, the C'tans themselves could and can be defeated, is the simple fact that when they play in our universe, they play by our rules. The minute they decided to take a living (or dead form even for the Necrons) form, just the idea that they are not beings of thought or energy, instantly makes them bound by the physics and rules of our universe. The extent to which they can break or bend those rules is what we call 'Power'. This can apply to the Emperor too.

So, when attempting to categorize beings of pure thought/essence with other powerful entities and various variations thereof, one has to be careful as to which particular aspect of that being they are refering to. The Emperor is God as an idea, but that doesn't mean his presence amongst us is 'Godly', he has his limitations too. It would be too easy, he could have winked and formed the empire instead of crusading, the Chaos gods would be all over us anyway, Warp or not.(edit: for further clarity and reference, apply this idea of limitation to the duel the Emperor had with Russ. A God losing a drinking contest? Preposterous in itself as a thought)


Concluding this line of thought throughout my reply, i would like to finally add that the simple reason why we are able to debate such matters and what makes War40k so appealing is the fact that we are given little information to work with. History is lost and fragmented, Humanity is on a narrow minded path for over 10.000 years. Even we, the fans, have to find the information we need through reading a particular Codex or Black Library novel that is considered canon. That reflects how the universe works, how the races themselves view history and the idea of subjectivity in the War40k universe. That alone is a literary device in itself, and a rather good one at that i must say.

kudos to whoever read my insane mumblings. all the time you were reading, grandfather Nurgle managed to creep even closer to your doomed souls through me and my writings.

Son of Sanguinius
12-02-2011, 05:08
Interesting post, comrade, but two things:

1. It's MvS. ;)

2. This probably qualifies for threadomancy, but if I'm mistaken, I apologize.

Kayuga.another-Hair-etic
12-02-2011, 07:35
Interesting post, comrade, but two things:

1. It's MvS. ;)

2. This probably qualifies for threadomancy, but if I'm mistaken, I apologize.

you spelling freak! ty for pointing it out, actually the first instance i used his name was correct, you only saw the last one on my 2nd topic ^^
and as i mentioned after my initial rumblings, i came across this thread through google, so chances are hundreds of other fans do the same in search of theories and potential answers.
even though you people had covered a plethora of points on the Emperor's power and comparison with outside forces, i felt the need to add these distinctions i did as to add my own little pebble in this gothic cathedral of argumentative knowledge :) (lies, Nurgle made me type all this just so you can read a little bit longer, as for him to creep a little closer...)

Brother Fenix
15-02-2011, 23:55
Reading the above got me thinking about another topic along a similar vein. The emperor always tells the primarchs, the people, everyone, that there are no gods. Yet, Khaine, Khorn, Nurgle, etc. are all referred to as Gods, and the emperor, who in several instances talks about conversing with timeless beings, must know of their existence.

So does that mean that in the 40K universe, there are no "gods" or does that mean that the emperor is ignorant to the Eldar and Chaos gods, or is he just trying to hide the fact that these forces exist from the rest of humanity?

MvS
16-02-2011, 08:01
Here are a couple of threads that discuss that topic:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117885

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66633

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85819

...and when in doubt:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233909

:)