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Jadawin
20-11-2010, 16:08
Is it correct that if I mount a Chaos Hero or Lord on a Juggernaut he becomes immune to Killing blow as he counts as monstrous cavalry, or are their exceptions for characters?

Maxl Rose
20-11-2010, 16:27
He would be suseptible to killing blow. If was dismounted he would still count as a man sized modle.
but the regular jug. cav. can not be killing blowed as they can not be dismounted and always count as MC

logan054
20-11-2010, 16:31
Yeah, go figure the logic in that :rolleyes:

Jadawin
20-11-2010, 16:39
I didnt realise he could be dismounted during a game, can the 'naut be "shot from under him" or am I missing something?

Maxl Rose
20-11-2010, 16:57
Nope it can not be shot out from under him. You only look to see what unit type he is w/o the mount for checking KB

Jadawin
20-11-2010, 17:05
Ahh that makes sense now, I did think making him immune to KB was a bit powerful. Thanks

Alric
20-11-2010, 19:38
Is it correct that if I mount a Chaos Hero or Lord on a Juggernaut he becomes immune to Killing blow as he counts as monstrous cavalry, or are their exceptions for characters?

It all depends on the characters current troop type when killing blow is being used.

On this issue in the FAQ you have ...

Q: Does a character have a troop type? If yes, do all of the rules that
apply to that troop type apply to the character? And will the
character be affected by special attacks or spells that affect that troop
type? (p96)
A: Yes to all questions.
So at the time in the game "Killing Blow" is being used if the character has a troop type that is not affected by killing blow according to the rules for "Killing Blow" then the character is not afftected by it.

Your specific question would be yes he is immune to "Killing Blow" BUT he is NOT immune to "Heroic Killing Blow". To further clarify your example would hold true for the entire game because the character is MC and cannot be dismounted and seperated from his mount.

If your character were on a monstrous mount or chariot and was attacked using killing blow he would be immune to "Killing Blow" BUT NOT "Heroic Killing Blow".
IF your characters' monstrous mount or chariot were killed and the character no longer on a monstrous mount or chariot THEN he would be an "Infantry" model and be affected by BOTH "Killing Blow" AND "Heroic Killing Blow".

If you want to view more on this see this thread ....
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279713

Kalandros
20-11-2010, 19:51
This is wrong because you missed the other FAQ:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490284a_FAQ_WarhammerRulebook_V1_2.pdf

Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

Exalted would be Infantry if without a mount, thus it can be affected by killing blow while riding a Juggernaut or a Chaos Dragon or any other mount.

It does not matter if the mount is alive or not, killing blow works against infantry heroes that take a mount.
It would not work against heroes that have a monstrous mount by default like Special Characters (Archaon for one) because he does not have the option of being on foot as infantry.

Alric
20-11-2010, 20:16
This is wrong because you missed the other FAQ:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490284a_FAQ_WarhammerRulebook_V1_2.pdf

Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

Exalted would be Infantry if without a mount, thus it can be affected by killing blow while riding a Juggernaut or a Chaos Dragon or any other mount.

It does not matter if the mount is alive or not, killing blow works against infantry heroes that take a mount.
It would not work against heroes that have a monstrous mount by default like Special Characters (Archaon for one) because he does not have the option of being on foot as infantry.

Yes is does matter because that afftects the characters' current troop type as pointed out by the other FAQ and the rules in BRB. It has already been pointed out in another thread the FAQ you quoted applies to in game cases where the character would be an infantry model in game , such as dismounted from a monster or chariot.

logan054
20-11-2010, 20:23
Ahh that makes sense now, I did think making him immune to KB was a bit powerful. Thanks

Not really considering he gets no LoS roll, I thought it was a fair trade off for being cannon bait, I was obviously mistaken :rolleyes:

Kalandros
20-11-2010, 21:33
Yes is does matter because that afftects the characters' current troop type as pointed out by the other FAQ and the rules in BRB. It has already been pointed out in another thread the FAQ you quoted applies to in game cases where the character would be an infantry model in game , such as dismounted from a monster or chariot.

Are you really reading what I'm reading and simply ignoring parts?

Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

This suggests that if the model counts as infantry when not mounted, Killing Blow will work WHILE the model is mounted!

The Troop Type changing does not matter AT ALL for Killing Blow due to this very specific answer!

The Infantry Hero on a Dragon becomes Monster troop type.
Grave Guard (Killing Blow) strikes at this Hero that is on a dragon and rolls a 6 to wound, the Hero fails his ward save, the hero is slain because he would count as Infantry if not for the Dragon.

Dragon then chops the Grave guard to bits after failing his Monster Reaction.

There, now this is everything with an example, there is no way to interpret it otherwise - this is how the rules work.

jthdotcom
20-11-2010, 23:15
Are you really reading what I'm reading and simply ignoring parts?

Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

This suggests that if the model counts as infantry when not mounted, Killing Blow will work WHILE the model is mounted!

The Troop Type changing does not matter AT ALL for Killing Blow due to this very specific answer!

The Infantry Hero on a Dragon becomes Monster troop type.
Grave Guard (Killing Blow) strikes at this Hero that is on a dragon and rolls a 6 to wound, the Hero fails his ward save, the hero is slain because he would count as Infantry if not for the Dragon.

Dragon then chops the Grave guard to bits after failing his Monster Reaction.

There, now this is everything with an example, there is no way to interpret it otherwise - this is how the rules work.
Seconded. There is no argument against it.

Alric
21-11-2010, 00:00
Are you really reading what I'm reading and simply ignoring parts?


This has already discussed in an earlier thread.

The FAQ.
Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.


And in this particular instance the meaning to me is very clear. Characters riding monsters or chariots can be KBed.This interpretation of the FAQ duplicates the rules for "Heroic Killing Blow" and therefore is wrong.

This interpretation of the FAQ creates a contradiction between character and non character models of the same troop type and therefore is wrong.

This interpretation of the FAQ conflicts with rules in the BRB and therefore is wrong.

The FAQ applies to a character model that has lost it's mount model during the game. A character on a chariot model or monster model starts the game as troop type chariot or monster. The FAQ deals with the situation after a character looses their mount model and is no longer on a chariot model or monster model and becomes an infantry model and it is no longer troop type chariot/monster and therefore is no longer unaffected by killing blow.

The correct interpretation of the FAQ is that the character is not affected by killing blow as long as the character model is on the chariot/monster/monstrous beast. It's only when the character isn't on the chariot/monster and it would be an "infantry model" that it would be affected by killing blow.

The FAQ is being literal therefore the words "infantry model " mean exactly that - literally a model that is on an infantry base - such as when a character models chariot/monster model has been killed and the character is then represented with an "infantry model".

This has also been addressed by the FAQ..
Q: Does a character have a troop type? If yes, do all of the rules that apply to that troop type apply to the character? And will the character be affected by special attacks or spells that affect that troop type? (p96)
A: Yes to all questions.

The rules for characters on chariot/monster mounts state - pg. 105 BRB " If a character has taken a chariot/monster as a mount the whole model is treated as having troop type chariot/monster.." The rules on page 72 state that a chariot/monster is not affected by killing blow.

" Killing Blow " only affects troop type infantry ,cavalry and warbeast. (see pg. 72 BRB)
" Heroic Killing Blow " affects troop types monster, monstrous infantry/cavalry/beast , chariots.(see pg. 72 BRB)
" Killing Blow " does not affect those troop types affected by " Heroic Killing Blow " only.(see pg. 72 BRB)

Any player that claims that killing blow affects a character of troop type monster, monstrous cavalry , or chariot is not following the rules in the BRB for character troop types and/or killing blow.

AMWOOD co
21-11-2010, 00:52
Yeah, it was discussed, quite thoroughly. The thread was also locked in the end without a resolution, and I don't think we can have one with players who insist on ignoring official FAQ's.

In the end there were three sides:
a) Only characters who are explicitly Monsters, Monstrous Beasts, or Monstrous Infantry are immune to Killing Blow. No character comes as a Chariot (see Settra or Grom the Ponch) and explicitly Monstrous Cavalry characters were all special characters (see below).
b) Characters who can be dismounted suffer from Killing Blow. This leaves Monstrous Cavalry safe, but Chariot and Monster mounted characters are vulnerable.
c) All characters mounted on Monstrous Beasts, Chariots or Monsters are safe from Killing Blow.

For a), special characters were iffy as those like Archaon and Tyrion are explicitly defined not as Infantry on a Monstrous Beast, but as Monstrous Cavalry. Some wanted them 'Killing Blowable', some didn't, some didn't care.

Note that even with the most liberal form of choice a), there are still characters who are immune to killing blow in the form of Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Vermin Lords, Treeman Ancients, and all Ogres and Minotaurs - one of these is even mounted (Ku'Gath Plaguefather) - so it's not as bad as Alric is saying as Heroic Killing Blow is still needed to kill these and the mounts that other characters can be on (Killing Blow still won't take down a dragon, no matter which option you use).

Personally, I fall towards reading a), but prefering b). How I play does not have to be dictated by the strictest reading of the rules. Only at tournaments do I worry of such things and I rarely play tournaments.

Kevlar
21-11-2010, 01:20
Yeah, it was discussed, quite thoroughly. The thread was also locked in the end without a resolution, and I don't think we can have one with players who insist on ignoring official FAQ's.


You are way better off just putting those people on ignore. There are some on this site who are not here to help interpret rules, they are here to do nothing but make an **** of themself.

Granted there is some stuff not able to be reasoned out the way the rules are written, like the chaos knights and mark of khorne. But something like this that has a very explicit answer in the current FAQ? You would have to be just looking to stir the pot to argue it any other way than it is written.

logan054
21-11-2010, 01:25
Personally, I fall towards reading a), but prefering b). How I play does not have to be dictated by the strictest reading of the rules. Only at tournaments do I worry of such things and I rarely play tournaments.

Sadly I feel this is the truth, its ok, I just give my jugger rider a charmed shield now and cross my fingers whenever a cannon shoots at it :( Sadly people such as myself do have a vested interested in the interpretation of the rule with can blind I judgement slightly, such is life.

Kalandros
21-11-2010, 04:05
This has already discussed in an earlier thread.

The FAQ.
Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

This interpretation of the FAQ duplicates the rules for "Heroic Killing Blow" and therefore is wrong.

This interpretation of the FAQ creates a contardiction between character and non character models of the same troop type and therefore is wrong.

This interpretation of the FAQ conflicts with rules in the BRB and therefore is wrong.

The FAQ applies to a character model that has lost it's mount model during the game. A character on a chariot model or monster model starts the game as troop type chariot or monster. The FAQ deals with the situation after a character looses their mount model and is no longer on a chariot model or monster model and becomes an infantry model and it is no longer troop type chariot/monster and therefore is no longer unaffected by killing blow.

The correct interpretation of the FAQ is that the character is not affected by killing blow as long as the character model is on the chariot/monster/monstrous beast. It's only when the character isn't on the chariot/monster and it would be an "infantry model" that it would be affected by killing blow.

The FAQ is being literal therefore the words "infantry model " mean exactly that - literally a model that is on an infantry base - such as when a character models chariot/monster model has been killed and the character is then represented with an "infantry model".


Any player that claims that killing blow affects a character of troop type monster, monstrous cavalry , or chariot is not following the rules in the BRB for character troop types and/or killing blow.


Nowhere in this FAQ does it ever even hint at a LOST mount.


Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.



The question is about a MOUNTED character that has NOT lost its mount!

You ask yourself "If it didn't have a mount, what type would it be?" If you answer "Infantry" then you can Killing Blow even while the hero is mounted because its very very very VERY clear right there in what I've quoted thrice now!


I simply can't believe how you cannot understand the FAQ
The other FAQ about the troop type is irrelevant because this FAQ says that regardless of what he is mounted on, if he would be Infantry without a mount then Killing Blow works

How can you interpret it ANY other way? You follow no logic, no RAW and no sense.

Exalted is Infantry
you choose a Juggernaut, he becomes Monstrous Cavalry

Since without a mount he would be Infantry, then Killing Blow still works against it!

That is no wrong interpretation, its the literal and logical interpretation of what is very clearly written

Alric
21-11-2010, 05:03
Nowhere in this FAQ does it ever even hint at a LOST mount.


Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.



The question is about a MOUNTED character that has NOT lost its mount!

You ask yourself "If it didn't have a mount, what type would it be?" If you answer "Infantry" then you can Killing Blow even while the hero is mounted because its very very very VERY clear right there in what I've quoted thrice now!


I simply can't believe how you cannot understand the FAQ
The other FAQ about the troop type is irrelevant because this FAQ says that regardless of what he is mounted on, if he would be Infantry without a mount then Killing Blow works

How can you interpret it ANY other way? You follow no logic, no RAW and no sense.

Exalted is Infantry
you choose a Juggernaut, he becomes Monstrous Cavalry

Since without a mount he would be Infantry, then Killing Blow still works against it!

That is no wrong interpretation, its the literal and logical interpretation of what is very clearly written

1.) Except that what you say directly contradicts the rules for killing blow - explain that please ?

2.) Except that what you say directly contradicts the rules for bloodcrushers of khorne and a herald of Khorne on a juggernaut - explain that too please.

3.) Except that what you say directly contradicts the rules for characters on monstrous beast and chariots and monstrous mounts - explain that too please ?

4.) Except that what you say directly contradicts the FAQ on character troop types - explain that too please ?

5.) Except that what you say creates a redundancy with the rules for Heroic Killing Blow - explain that too please ?

So explain the 4 contradictions and the 1 redundancy above please ?

On the other hand what I have said doesnt contradict any rules in the BRB or any FAQ's or create any redundancies.

Kalandros
21-11-2010, 05:28
Are you serious? Really?
FAQs change how things work, they are rules. Deal with it.

Alric
21-11-2010, 05:39
Are you serious? Really?
FAQs change how things work, they are rules. Deal with it.

I'm sorry but I'm not familiar with the "deal with it" counter arguement could you elaborate please ? And while you're at it explain the 4 contradictions and the 1 redundancy please, or should I just assume you cant explain them ?

As for what FAQ's are , I'll quote the GW website.


This update is split into two sections: Errata and ‘FrequentlyAsked Questions’. The Errata corrects any mistakes in the book while the Frequently Asked Questions (or ‘FAQ’) section answers commonly asked questions about the rules.

An FAQ is NOT a rule.

Gunless Ganger
21-11-2010, 06:23
... and Alric has just rolled a double 1 and been sucked into the mysterious Chaos realm known as "IGNORE". He will not be mourned.

So - yeah - add +1 person to the side in support of:
"The Only Possible Way to Read That FAQ Statement".

The FAQ says KB works on Infantry characters on any kind of mount. Full Stop.

H33D
21-11-2010, 08:04
What the FAQ says IS pretty obvious. Where are you confused, Alric? In fact, I'm not too sure you are disagreeing with anyone. You claimed that Killing Blow does not work against characters that are Monsters, Monstrous Cavalry, etc.

I think what is confusing you is that certain characters are 'infantry' models mounted on 'monstrous cavalry' models. The entire model therefore gains the 'monstrous cavalry' troop-type, however because the character is 'infantry' aside from the mount, he can be slain if he is affected separately from his mount by killing blow. I am assuming in the same manner you could killing blow a Skink on a Stegadon, but not the Stegadon itself. This is just my honest opinion, it is a somewhat unclear rule as far as non-character models.

The ruling seems to me to be specific to split-profile models. Each element may have a different troop type and therefore can be affected by abilities that affect those troop types if they are affected separately and not affected as a whole. So Killing Blow can kill any infantry, cavalry, war machines, beasts (or whatever it is the BRB says) but not anything else. Even if they are mounted on something that is not susceptible to Killing Blow. Heroic Killing Blow is the only special rule that can slay other models such as Monsters. So they are not identical as you earlier claimed. I hope this helps, Alric.

Enazel
21-11-2010, 09:12
Alric, Games Workshop have made it clear in the FAQ that Killing blow works against all mounted characters, simple as. You may not like it, it may alter the way the rules read in the main rule book, but the FAQ is the rules that will be followed at touranments.

T10
21-11-2010, 09:35
So explain the 4 contradictions and the 1 redundancy above please ?


Yes. The FAQ entry makes assumptions as to how Killing Blow works, assumptions that don't have basis in the rules text. For what it's worth, it is consistent with how things worked back in 7th edition.

So you can either ignore the FAQ entry (and explain to your opponents why, it's going to take a few minutes and raise a few eyebrows), or you can accept it as one of those weird things where games designers seem to forget their own rules.

As for the application of the FAQ entry, it sees more oriented towards models that consist of multiple components that can be targeted (and killed) separately. It seems "infantry-class" components are considered vulnerable to Killing Blow (e.g.: the Skink crew on a Stegadon).

-T10

Alric
21-11-2010, 10:17
Yes. The FAQ entry makes assumptions as to how Killing Blow works, assumptions that don't have basis in the rules text. For what it's worth, it is consistent with how things worked back in 7th edition.

So you can either ignore the FAQ entry (and explain to your opponents why, it's going to take a few minutes and raise a few eyebrows), or you can accept it as one of those weird things where games designers seem to forget their own rules.

As for the application of the FAQ entry, it sees more oriented towards models that consist of multiple components that can be targeted (and killed) separately. It seems "infantry-class" components are considered vulnerable to Killing Blow (e.g.: the Skink crew on a Stegadon).

-T10

And yet for neither DoC or WoC army did killing blow affect character MC models at Games Day Baltimore or DoC army in the Ard 'Boyz tournament.

As for your statements above.
For MC models the "components" cannot be targted seperately so you are playing that wrong. Also played the way you have stated above not only contradicts the rules , but also creates a redundancy with "Heroic Killing Blow". Remember there was no rule for Heroic Killing Blow in 7th maybe thats where some people are making their mistake.
And as I have noted I have asked those that dispute my claims to please explain the contradictions I posted in post #18 of this thread, as of this post still no one has yet been able to do.

So yeah , I and everyone else that plays WFB using the rules in the 8th edition book will play it as stated in the rules.

RanaldLoec
21-11-2010, 11:06
What was the name of the dwarf runesmith who forged the runefangs?

T10
21-11-2010, 11:58
And yet for neither DoC or WoC army did killing blow affect character MC models at Games Day Baltimore or DoC army in the Ard 'Boyz tournament.


I couldn't comment. Tournament-specific rules aren't part of the rules or the FAQ. Maybe the organizers didn't know about the FAQ. Maybe it wasn't even out yet. Or they didn't care.



And as I have noted I have asked those that dispute my claims to please explain the contradictions I posted in post #18 of this thread, as of this post still no one has yet been able to do.


Well, I figured I sorta explained them, but I'll sum it up: "You're right, the FAQ is wrong but no-one really cares." I am making the educated guess that most players will do as the FAQ says.



So yeah , I and everyone else that plays WFB using the rules in the 8th edition book will play it as stated in the rules.


Sure you will.


What was the name of the dwarf runesmith who forged the runefangs?

Alaric the Mad. How so?

-T10

AMWOOD co
21-11-2010, 18:59
I fail to see how you can claim that the FAQ makes Heroic Killing Blow redundant.

Let me explain, for Heroic Killing Blow to be redundant, Killing Blow must do everything that Heroic Killing Blow can. So, if we can find something that Heroic Killing Blow works on that the FAQ'ed Killing Blow does not, then there is no redundancy.

The easy answer lies in the two armies you mentioned earlier, Deamons and Warriors of Chaos. Both of these include multiple characters that are Monsters without needing a mount (all the Lords of Daemons, and Daemon Princes, Galrauch and Kholek for Warriors). Also included are Minotaurs, Ogres, and Vermin Lords. These are just characters, too. Giants, Shaggoths, Cygors, Dragons, Griffons, Trolls, Chaos Spawn, and dozens of other entries are Monsters, Monstrous Beasts, Monstrous Cavalry, or Monstrous Infantry.

Now, this is using the most liberal interpretation of the FAQ (ie. the one that makes Killing Blow affect the most things). That paragraph above includes quite a few things, and so Heroic Killing Blow is not redundant.

H33D
21-11-2010, 20:37
Can you explain each of the 4 contradictions I listed in post #18 ? Can you explain the redundancy I stated in post #18 ?



1.) Except that what you say directly contradicts the rules for killing blow - explain that please ?

Killing Blow affects Infantry, Cavalry, and War Beasts. Other creatures are considered too large or too numerous to be felled by Killing Blow. Since a mounted character is not himself a 'large or numberous' creature such as a monster etc. than he is susceptible. This does not actually contradict the rules for Killing Blow.

2.) Except that what you say directly contradicts the rules for bloodcrushers of khorne and a herald of Khorne on a juggernaut - explain that too please.

Bloodcrushers are Monstrous Cavalry and are therefore immune to Killing Blow themselves, while a Herald is an infantry model mounted on a Monstrous Cavalry mount. He is therefore not immune to killing blow, but the Bloodcrushers themselves are immune as they are treated as a single Monstrous Cavalry model in this case.

3.) Except that what you say directly contradicts the rules for characters on monstrous beast and chariots and monstrous mounts - explain that too please ?

While the section in the Rulebook states that the entire model gains the troop type of the mount, this does not change the character's original troop type of Infantry, which is the only thing Killing Blow actually relies on.

4.) Except that what you say directly contradicts the FAQ on character troop types - explain that too please ?

The FAQ actually states that characters themselves have a troop type and can be affected by special rules and effects that would affect that troop type. Since this is about characters with the infantry troop type, they would still be susceptible to killing blow and the FAQ clearly supports this.

5.) Except that what you say creates a redundancy with the rules for Heroic Killing Blow - explain that too please ?

Heroic Killing Blow works against any model. Killing Blow only works against Infantry, Cavalry, and War Beasts. The only redundancy is that Heroic Killing Blow will work against Infantry, Cavalry, and War Beasts as well. There is nothing wrong with this.



I put my answers in yellow. I am still not really sure what it is you do not understand as your statements are not actually contradictions. The last was in fact partly a redundancy, but not 100%. HKB is just a more effective form of KB, even if it affects the same troop types, it also effects other troop types KB does not affect.

Please be more specific about the rules and FAQs and what they actually state contradicts the rules. I may have missed something or misunderstood. I hope this helps, Alric.

Alric
22-11-2010, 00:38
What you have stated is an explanation for an interpretation of the FAQ.


Bloodcrushers are Monstrous Cavalry and are therefore immune to Killing Blow themselves, while a Herald is an infantry model mounted on a Monstrous Cavalry mount. He is therefore not immune to killing blow, but the Bloodcrushers themselves are immune as they are treated as a single Monstrous Cavalry model in this case.

The rules for characters riding monstrous beast state that
"A character will have the option to ride a monstrous beast. In this case the whole model is treated as having troop type 'monsrous cavalry' and follows all the rules for both characters and monstrous cavalry models. The rules on page 72 state that a monstrous cavalry model is not affected by killing blow. Your interpretation would require the character model to change troop type from monstrous cavalry to infantry , which according the rules in the BRB can not happen at all during a game.

While the section in the Rulebook states that the entire model gains the troop type of the mount, this does not change the character's original troop type of Infantry, which is the only thing Killing Blow actually relies on.
The rules for characters on chariot/monster mounts state -
" If a character has taken a chariot/monster as a mount the whole model is treated as having troop type chariot/monster.."
The rules on page 72 state that a chariot/monster is not affected by killing blow. Your interpretation would require the character model to change troop type to an infantry troop during the game which can not happen unless the character looses its mount.
Also
This has also been addressed by another FAQ..

Q: Does a character have a troop type? If yes, do all of the rules that apply to that troop type apply to the character? And will the character be affected by special attacks or spells that affect that troop type? (p96)A: Yes to all questions.The rules in the BRB and a FAQ specifically states that characters are troop type Monstrous Cavalry , Monster and Chariot when on the appropriate mount. The rules for killing blow specifically state that "Killing Blow" does not affect troop type Monstrous Cavalry , Monster and Chariot. Character models can not change troop type unless they are seperated/dismounted from their mount.


So - The rules in the BRB and a FAQ specifically state characters have a troop type that according to the rules in the BRB are not affected by killing blow.

So - The contradiction I'm referring to is this...How can a player claim the FAQ applies to a troop type that the rules in the BRB specifically state isnt affected by it ?


As an alternative I offer this explanation.
The FAQ applies to an in game situation when a character model has lost it's mount model during the game. A character on a chariot model or monster model starts the game as troop type chariot or monster and stays that troop type the entire game unless it looses its mount. The FAQ deals with the in game situation after a character looses their mount model and is no longer on a chariot model or monster model and changes becoming an infantry model and it is no longer troop type chariot/monster and therefore is no longer unaffected by killing blow. The FAQ is being literal therefore literally a model that is on an infantry base - such as in game situation when a character models chariot/monster model has been killed and the character troop type changes and is then represented with an "infantry model".

Basically the discussion comes down to this.
Does a player ignore the rules in the BRB for characters and troop types when referring to a FAQ.- OR - Does a player follow the rules in the BRB for characters and troop types when referring to a FAQ.

Orion_76
22-11-2010, 01:15
Yeah, it was discussed, quite thoroughly. The thread was also locked in the end without a resolution, and I don't think we can have one with players who insist on ignoring official FAQ's.

In the end there were three sides:
a) Only characters who are explicitly Monsters, Monstrous Beasts, or Monstrous Infantry are immune to Killing Blow. No character comes as a Chariot (see Settra or Grom the Ponch) and explicitly Monstrous Cavalry characters were all special characters (see below).
b) Characters who can be dismounted suffer from Killing Blow. This leaves Monstrous Cavalry safe, but Chariot and Monster mounted characters are vulnerable.
c) All characters mounted on Monstrous Beasts, Chariots or Monsters are safe from Killing Blow.

For a), special characters were iffy as those like Archaon and Tyrion are explicitly defined not as Infantry on a Monstrous Beast, but as Monstrous Cavalry. Some wanted them 'Killing Blowable', some didn't, some didn't care.

Note that even with the most liberal form of choice a), there are still characters who are immune to killing blow in the form of Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Vermin Lords, Treeman Ancients, and all Ogres and Minotaurs - one of these is even mounted (Ku'Gath Plaguefather) - so it's not as bad as Alric is saying as Heroic Killing Blow is still needed to kill these and the mounts that other characters can be on (Killing Blow still won't take down a dragon, no matter which option you use).

Personally, I fall towards reading a), but prefering b). How I play does not have to be dictated by the strictest reading of the rules. Only at tournaments do I worry of such things and I rarely play tournaments.

Hi, here in Spain we play this using option B (highlighted in red). A model composed of an infantry character and a monster/chariot are two different models united as one... temporarily (they can be separated in battle). You can target them separately in close combat, so that's why you can KB the character.

A model composed of an infantry character and a monstrous beast (therefore montrous cavalry) can never be separated during the game and are always going to be a MC troop type model (inmune to KB). They cannot be targeted separately.

I can't beleive that there is such confusion to this rule... quite straight-forward really.

Lord_Elric
22-11-2010, 02:56
also the Faqs are not generaly answered by the design team either not always usualy itll be a case of "who shall a send all these questions to sir"
"o just answer them and update the faq"
"but i dont really play fantasy sir i play 40k ive only read the rule book once"
"just put down what you think no one cares theyll carry on argueing no matter what you put"....

AMWOOD co
22-11-2010, 03:15
The rules in the BRB and a FAQ specifically states that characters are troop type Monstrous Cavalry , Monster and Chariot when on the appropriate mount. The rules for killing blow specifically state that "Killing Blow" does not affect troop type Monstrous Cavalry , Monster and Chariot. Character models can not change troop type unless they are seperated/dismounted from their mount.

So -The rules in the BRB and a FAQ specifically state characters have a troop type that according to the rules in the BRB are not affected by killing blow.

So-The the contradiction I'm referring to is this...How can a player claim the FAQ applies to a troop type that the rules in the BRB specifically state isnt affected by it ?

I found some technicalities that you aren't going to like, Alric, as it shows there is no contradictions.


Q: Does a character have a troop type? If yes, do all of the rules that apply to that troop type apply to the character? And will the character be affected by special attacks or spells that affect that troop
type? (p96)
A: Yes to all questions.


...the whole model is treated as having the troop type monster and thus follows all the rules for both characters and monster models.

Now, here's the catch. The second quote doesn't actually say the character stops being Infantry (and right now this would apply to only Infantry). I've checked each line on pp 84, 85, and 104 and none of them say to actually replace or ignore the characters own Unit Type.

That being said, the first quote now makes a great deal of sense. Even while on a chariot, and following chariot rules, a Tomb King is still Infantry. We treat him as a Chariot model, referencing the appropriate Chariot rules.

However, first quote above are saying that when he is struck by an attack that focuses on the character's Unit Type (such as Killing Blow), he will still use his own Unit Type of Infantry to determine his vulnerability rather than the Unit Type given him by his mount.

Therefore, the Killing Blow FAQ has actually become redundant. Mounted characters are just as vulnerable because they are still Infantry even while mounted and no rule says to ignore this. The Character Unit Type FAQ actually is saying to make note of this.

antihelten
22-11-2010, 05:33
Therefore, the Killing Blow FAQ has actually become redundant. Mounted characters are just as vulnerable because they are still Infantry even while mounted and no rule says to ignore this. The Character Unit Type FAQ actually is saying to make note of this.

But wouldn't this interpretation also mean that characters can get look out sir rolls from infantry units, no matter what they are mounted on.

Kalandros
22-11-2010, 05:50
If only they would rule it that way specifically, antihelten.
Then heroes like Skarsnik or mounted heroes in infantry units would be usable once more instead of being simple cannon-bait and thus completely stupid to use ]:

Seville
22-11-2010, 07:16
This has already discussed in an earlier thread.

The FAQ.
Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

This interpretation of the FAQ duplicates the rules for "Heroic Killing Blow" and therefore is wrong.

This interpretation of the FAQ creates a contradiction between character and non character models of the same troop type and therefore is wrong.

This interpretation of the FAQ conflicts with rules in the BRB and therefore is wrong.

The FAQ applies to a character model that has lost it's mount model during the game. A character on a chariot model or monster model starts the game as troop type chariot or monster. The FAQ deals with the situation after a character looses their mount model and is no longer on a chariot model or monster model and becomes an infantry model and it is no longer troop type chariot/monster and therefore is no longer unaffected by killing blow.

The correct interpretation of the FAQ is that the character is not affected by killing blow as long as the character model is on the chariot/monster/monstrous beast. It's only when the character isn't on the chariot/monster and it would be an "infantry model" that it would be affected by killing blow.

The FAQ is being literal therefore the words "infantry model " mean exactly that - literally a model that is on an infantry base - such as when a character models chariot/monster model has been killed and the character is then represented with an "infantry model".

This has also been addressed by the FAQ..
Q: Does a character have a troop type? If yes, do all of the rules that apply to that troop type apply to the character? And will the character be affected by special attacks or spells that affect that troop type? (p96)
A: Yes to all questions.

The rules for characters on chariot/monster mounts state - pg. 105 BRB " If a character has taken a chariot/monster as a mount the whole model is treated as having troop type chariot/monster.." The rules on page 72 state that a chariot/monster is not affected by killing blow.

" Killing Blow " only affects troop type infantry ,cavalry and warbeast. (see pg. 72 BRB)
" Heroic Killing Blow " affects troop types monster, monstrous infantry/cavalry/beast , chariots.(see pg. 72 BRB)
" Killing Blow " does not affect those troop types affected by " Heroic Killing Blow " only.(see pg. 72 BRB)

Any player that claims that killing blow affects a character of troop type monster, monstrous cavalry , or chariot is not following the rules in the BRB for character troop types and/or killing blow.

Seriously? I can't even believe you are trying to make this argument. Wow. Now I've really seen everything on Warseer. You are so clearly in the wrong, yet you insist on arguing. Is English your first language? I am honestly asking.

Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes

The word "is" is present tense. As in, "currently". Meaning, "right now". "At the moment". The question does not say what he "was" mounted on, nor does it imply it. How could this be any more clear?

"The rules for characters on chariot/monster mounts state - pg. 105 BRB " If a character has taken a chariot/monster as a mount the whole model is treated as having troop type chariot/monster.." The rules on page 72 state that a chariot/monster is not affected by killing blow."

The above mentioned FAQ entry clearly states that the character is indeed affected by killing blow. For all other intents and purposes, the model may be a monster / chariot, but not for KB, as is made abundantly clear in the FAQ.

Hey, I don't like my 400 point Juggy Khorne Lord getting KB'ed by some Wight King chump any more than you do, but, that's the way it is, and this isn't even one of those rules where I can kind of see it your way. I'm afraid you're just wrong.

theorox
22-11-2010, 08:00
It does not matter if the mount is alive or not, killing blow works against infantry heroes that take a mount.
It would not work against heroes that have a monstrous mount by default like Special Characters (Archaon for one) because he does not have the option of being on foot as infantry.

That makes no sense at all, and therefore i don't think i will play it like that. Call it a houserule, but i don't think that's what intended. Killing blowing a hero on a jugger is the same as killing blowing a Bloodcrusher, obviously. :)

Theo

Alric
22-11-2010, 08:18
"The rules for characters on chariot/monster mounts state - pg. 105 BRB " If a character has taken a chariot/monster as a mount the whole model is treated as having troop type chariot/monster.." The rules on page 72 state that a chariot/monster is not affected by killing blow."

The above mentioned FAQ entry clearly states that the character is indeed affected by killing blow. For all other intents and purposes, the model may be a monster / chariot, but not for KB, as is made abundantly clear in the FAQ.

Hey, I don't like my 400 point Juggy Khorne Lord getting KB'ed by some Wight King chump any more than you do, but, that's the way it is, and this isn't even one of those rules where I can kind of see it your way. I'm afraid you're just wrong.

You do realize you are referring to a FAQ , which is not a rule.

As for what FAQ's are , I'll quote the GW website.

This update is split into two sections: Errata and ‘FrequentlyAsked Questions’. The Errata corrects any mistakes in the book while the Frequently Asked Questions (or ‘FAQ’) section answers commonly asked questions about the rules.
The rules in the BRB and a FAQ specifically state that characters are troop type Monstrous Cavalry , Monster and Chariot when on the appropriate mount. The rules for killing blow specifically state that "Killing Blow" does not affect troop type Monstrous Cavalry , Monster and Chariot. Character models can not change troop type unless they are seperated/dismounted from their mount

So - The rules in the BRB and a FAQ specifically state characters have a troop type that according to the rules in the BRB are not affected by killing blow.

So - The contradiction is this...How can a player claim the FAQ applies to a troop type that the rules in the BRB specifically state isnt affected by it ?

Does a player ignore the rules in the BRB for characters and troop types when referring to a FAQ.
- OR -
Does a player follow the rules in the BRB for characters and troop types when referring to a FAQ.

Read my post # 30 in this thread.

theorox
22-11-2010, 08:26
Sorry for my brief and somewhat ignorant reply above, here's how i see it:

If you can be killed separately from the mount, you can be killing blowed.

If you can't be killed separately, like if you are monstrous cavalry, (AKA riding a monstrous beast) the combined model cannot be killing blowed. You can however be "Heroic Killing Blowed". :)

That makes sense. A ridden monstrous beast being killed by something that couldn't kill and unridden one doesn't.

Theo

AMWOOD co
22-11-2010, 14:09
But wouldn't this interpretation also mean that characters can get look out sir rolls from infantry units, no matter what they are mounted on.


If only they would rule it that way specifically, antihelten.
Then heroes like Skarsnik or mounted heroes in infantry units would be usable once more instead of being simple cannon-bait and thus completely stupid to use ]:

Granted, antihelten. Nice catch. Skarsnik would still be up a creek without a paddle though, Kalandros as he is all Monstrous Beast.

sssk
22-11-2010, 14:22
wow, this thread is going round in circles faster than a particle in the hadron collider.

...Let's just hope we don't accidentally get sucked into a rules based black hole...oh no, too late

Codsticker
22-11-2010, 15:24
wow, this thread is going round in circles faster than a particle in the hadron collider.

I agree- thread closed.

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad