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View Full Version : the ecclesiarchy and the black templars.



Nubl0
22-11-2010, 17:11
I was wonderng how these to get on. It's been mentioned that most space marine chapters don't exactly see eye to eye with them (epsecially the older ones). Black templars however seem very devout but being such an ancient chapter probably still hold the view that the emperor was a mighty man.. not a god. Obviously the ecclesiarchy don't like that view at all. The templars also do not follow the codex and are romoured to have more 6000 battle brothers in their ranks, they are however often spread out.

Now obviously if they all gahtered up they would be a huge threat to the inquisiton/ecclesiarchy if they decided that they didn't agree with their beliefs. I know the Inquisition view them with suspicion but how do the ecclesiarchy seeing as they epitomise the "holy crusader" ideals? In the templar dex it also mentions the high marshal sends his troops wherever he wants, and awnsers to no one... obviously few people can get in contact with him as it's a fleet based chapter always on the move but he cna and probabley often does tell people that their problems arnt worth his time, so I can imagine him annoying quite a few people.

Infact forget the ecclesiarchy, how does the empire as a whole look at them :D?

ryng_sting
22-11-2010, 17:42
An Ecclesiarch, High Lord Vandire, ordered the destruction of many BT chapter keeps by orbital bombardment. Less than impressed, the chapter promptly declared the Terran Crusade to get rid off him.

Today, the view is the standard one: mutter all you like in private, but there's no hope of getting any Space Marines, the creations of the Emperor himself, to take you seriously, so don't bother.

ashendant
22-11-2010, 17:59
An Ecclesiarch, High Lord Vandire, ordered the destruction of many BT chapter keeps by orbital bombardment. Less than impressed, the chapter promptly declared the Terran Crusade to get rid off him.

Today, the view is the standard one: mutter all you like in private, but there's no hope of getting any Space Marines, the creations of the Emperor himself, to take you seriously, so don't bother.

Only the inquisitors can bitch with them and they can only use wrong intel to do so

SolkaTruesilver
22-11-2010, 20:09
I was wonderng how these to get on. It's been mentioned that most space marine chapters don't exactly see eye to eye with them (epsecially the older ones). Black templars however seem very devout but being such an ancient chapter probably still hold the view that the emperor was a mighty man.. not a god. Obviously the ecclesiarchy don't like that view at all. The templars also do not follow the codex and are romoured to have more 6000 battle brothers in their ranks, they are however often spread out.

Since the Space Marines are somewhat directly descended from the Emperor-God himself, they have a spark of divinity in them too. So it's perfectly acceptable that divine beings see the Emperor-God as merely one of their own, just mightly incredible.

Shamana
22-11-2010, 20:38
Acceptable to who? I'm pretty sure the Ecclesiarchy doesn't agree with that. In general, though, it and most SM chapters have an agreement of sorts not to pay too much attention to what the other is doing.

SolkaTruesilver
22-11-2010, 21:01
Acceptable to who?

The Ecclesiarchy. In the (rare, but still occuring) cases the general population would overhear Spesh Marines talk about Him, and not have "devotion" in their voices, nor talking about Him like a God (that he is), these poor sheeps would snuggle back to their priests and ask them why the Spesh Marines are being disrespectful.

I am sure the Ecclesiarchy has an official statement to give out that would make sure no one doubts the Spesh Marines' loyalty, even if they are, satistically-wise, the most common traitors to the Imperium.

FabricatorGeneralMike
22-11-2010, 21:55
The Ecclesiarchy. In the (rare, but still occuring) cases the general population would overhear Spesh Marines talk about Him, and not have "devotion" in their voices, nor talking about Him like a God (that he is), these poor sheeps would snuggle back to their priests and ask them why the Spesh Marines are being disrespectful.

I am sure the Ecclesiarchy has an official statement to give out that would make sure no one doubts the Spesh Marines' loyalty, even if they are, satistically-wise, the most common traitors to the Imperium.

Really?, so the billions of cultists and Traitor/Rouge Imperial Guard don't count? We might not hear about them turning traitor everyday like we do about 'Spesh Marines' turning traitor, because it's almost expected. 'Spesh Marines' turning traitor is a rather rare thing to happen, it's a big deal. So thats what we hear about. (Far to often IMHO. With all the fluff about traitor marines it's amazing the imperium has any loyal marines left, but lets not get started on that dead horse. :angel:)

SolkaTruesilver
23-11-2010, 01:44
Really?, so the billions of cultists and Traitor/Rouge Imperial Guard don't count? We might not hear about them turning traitor everyday like we do about 'Spesh Marines' turning traitor, because it's almost expected. 'Spesh Marines' turning traitor is a rather rare thing to happen, it's a big deal. So thats what we hear about. (Far to often IMHO. With all the fluff about traitor marines it's amazing the imperium has any loyal marines left, but lets not get started on that dead horse. :angel:)

AFAIK, half of the Space Marine legions went chaos-worship during HH. Maybe more with the Lost Legions. Has 50% of the Imperium's population defected to Chaos Worship?

Lord_Crull
23-11-2010, 02:04
AFAIK, half of the Space Marine legions went chaos-worship during HH. Maybe more with the Lost Legions. Has 50% of the Imperium's population defected to Chaos Worship?

Yes actually.

More than half of the Mechanicus as well as half of the Army and Navy also fell along with half of the worlds in the Imperium to Horus's banner. You make it sound like it was only the Marines that defected in any numbers when Horus took half the Imperial military with him. Warmaster remember?

Since the Horus Heresy it's estimated that around fifty chapters out of a thousand have gone traitor since then. I don't think anyone has the ability to estimate the amount of cultists and Guardsmen that went traitor since then.

Son of Sanguinius
23-11-2010, 02:07
AFAIK, half of the Space Marine legions went chaos-worship during HH.

No, half of the legions turned against the Imperium. A considerable amount of Astartes and even a couple Primarchs turned without chaos worship.

Hellebore
23-11-2010, 02:09
You know, 50 chapters really doesn't seem that much compared to ~9 Legions in terms of numbers.

I wonder if this was a combination of overpowering primarch charisma and the lower standards of recruitment?

Hellebore

Lord_Crull
23-11-2010, 02:12
You know, 50 chapters really doesn't seem that much compared to ~9 Legions in terms of numbers.

I wonder if this was a combination of overpowering primarch charisma and the lower standards of recruitment?

Hellebore

Probably. The Marine codex talks about how recruiting practices where improved after the Heresy when the chapters where created. Plus before the Heresy nobody had any idea what Chaos was.

Now? Indoctrination is the order of the day.

DYoung
23-11-2010, 03:23
I always got the impression that the Black Templars were a lot closer to the Ecclesiarchy than many other chapters, being one of the first go-to chapters if the Ecclesiarchy wants to start a crusade (which, it seems, they do enjoy doing). Maybe this is why the Ecclesiarchy doesn't mind turning a blind eye to the Teplars' numbers. However, I don't think the respect goes the other way, as the Black Templars didn't really have any issue with invading Terra and assassinating the Ecclesiarchy's leader.

baphomael
23-11-2010, 03:45
Yes actually.

More than half of the Mechanicus as well as half of the Army and Navy also fell along with half of the worlds in the Imperium to Horus's banner. You make it sound like it was only the Marines that defected in any numbers when Horus took half the Imperial military with him. Warmaster remember?

Since the Horus Heresy it's estimated that around fifty chapters out of a thousand have gone traitor since then. I don't think anyone has the ability to estimate the amount of cultists and Guardsmen that went traitor since then.

IIRC, Horus turned a third of the Imperium to his cause (a nod to the idea of a third of the heavenly host rebelling against god. Afterall, before the novels tried to expand on it, the Horus Heresy was just Paradise Lost with power armour.)


I always got the impression that the Black Templars were a lot closer to the Ecclesiarchy than many other chapters, being one of the first go-to chapters if the Ecclesiarchy wants to start a crusade (which, it seems, they do enjoy doing). Maybe this is why the Ecclesiarchy doesn't mind turning a blind eye to the Teplars' numbers. However, I don't think the respect goes the other way, as the Black Templars didn't really have any issue with invading Terra and assassinating the Ecclesiarchy's leader.

To be fair, the Adeptus Ministorum has little say in how Astartes policies are run. Whether or not the Ministorum approves of certain chapter policies (such as recruitment and numbers) is irrelavent. They could lobby the High Lords (through their mouthpiece, the Ecclesiarch who has a effectively permanent seat within the Senatorum Imperialis) but, largely the Adepta of the Imperium can only interfere at the highest levels. I'd say, its not so much turning a blind eye, but rather too much trouble than its worth (and, besides, they do quite a good job. Also, the old skool lectitio divinitatus notes that the truly divine would deny their divinity, so being the angelic progeny of a god they would say that wouldnt they ;))

Lupe
23-11-2010, 04:26
More than half of the Mechanicus as well as half of the Army and Navy also fell along with half of the worlds in the Imperium to Horus's banner.

Technically, not true. Half the forces under arms turned on the Imperium. The actual worlds... not really close to half. Some were willing to join the traitors. Some were not, but joined by virtue of having their leadership toppled by the traitors. And many more chose to remain neutral in the conflict, only to face hars reprisals from both sides after the heresy played out.