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View Full Version : Shooting, Line of Sight, and Your Own Units



H33D
24-11-2010, 03:53
BRB, pg. 39

"Models further back than the second rank of a unit are assumed to have their line of sight blocked by models further forward and will not normally be able to shoot."

My first question is one I have asked before and have never received a definitive answer to. I have in fact seen other people post the same question but they too never got a concrete answer.

My question is this: If your unit is sloped downwards due to such things as being on the edge of a hill, do ranks further back than the second have line of sight to anything other than the back of the heads of the models in front of them?

Naturally most will conclude that they do not, but there are two words in the rule above that strike me as odd. The first is 'assumed'. They are assumed to have their line of sight blocked. Does this mean that they may or may not have their line of sight blocked by we always assume that they do? This would make sense and seems to me the most clear ruling on the matter. The second word is 'normally'. They won't 'normally' be able to shoot. Does this mean that special effects that do not normally grant extra ranks for shooting (so nothing like volley-fire) but grant extra line of sight (such as skirmishers) would allow all of the models in a unit to shoot?

If I run skink skirmishers in 5 x 4 formation, would I get 20 shots since the models in the third and second rank clearly have Line of Sight due to their special rule, or do I get 10 shots because they are 'assumed' to have their Line of Sight blocked?

On an extra note, although it is probably RAI just for counting rank bonuses for CR, the 'LIGHT TROOPS' subheading on pg. 77 does say that skirmishers have 0 ranks. Seems to be a bit rules-lawyering to me to say that this means they can all fire as there are no ranks beyond the first, but I want to know the public's opinion on this.

So how exactly does TLoS work with ranked shooting units? I don't exactly have an opinion on the matter, it is something I have been trying to find a clear ruling on since this new rulebook was released.

Lord_Elric
24-11-2010, 08:37
You are "told" to assume their LoS is blocked this is a flat out statement meaning they dont have LoS regardless of their position if the otherwise was true then this statement would be redundant and wouldnt even need to be there..

"normaly" here is used in the same way as for spells needing an exception in their rules to reduce a stat to 0 or above 10.. you need an exception in a models or weapons rules to allow you too fire in more than 2 ranks

Archangelion
24-11-2010, 09:51
You are instructed to assume that the furthur ranks have no line of sight, even though what you see might tell you different. In other words, if you are looking at you unit, and you see that your back ranks have line of sight, you are to assume that they don't because they are "furthure back than the second rank" and "are assumed to have their line of sight blocked".

That is an interesting find about skirmishers. It would seem that since there are no ranks in the unit, that full true line of sight is used.

Lord_Elric
24-11-2010, 21:05
Skirmishers still "have" ranks they just get no bonus from them atall in combat

for example if you hit a skirmisher unit with a bolt thrower it will still pierce ranks as will a cannon ball moving through the unit hit 1 model per rank

Archangelion
25-11-2010, 09:56
Where does it state that skirmishers have ranks Lord_Elric?

theorox
25-11-2010, 10:26
BRB, pg. 39

"Models further back than the second rank of a unit are assumed to have their line of sight blocked by models further forward and will not normally be able to shoot."

My first question is one I have asked before and have never received a definitive answer to. I have in fact seen other people post the same question but they too never got a concrete answer.

My question is this: If your unit is sloped downwards due to such things as being on the edge of a hill, do ranks further back than the second have line of sight to anything other than the back of the heads of the models in front of them?

Naturally most will conclude that they do not, but there are two words in the rule above that strike me as odd. The first is 'assumed'. They are assumed to have their line of sight blocked. Does this mean that they may or may not have their line of sight blocked by we always assume that they do? This would make sense and seems to me the most clear ruling on the matter. The second word is 'normally'. They won't 'normally' be able to shoot. Does this mean that special effects that do not normally grant extra ranks for shooting (so nothing like volley-fire) but grant extra line of sight (such as skirmishers) would allow all of the models in a unit to shoot?

If I run skink skirmishers in 5 x 4 formation, would I get 20 shots since the models in the third and second rank clearly have Line of Sight due to their special rule, or do I get 10 shots because they are 'assumed' to have their Line of Sight blocked?

On an extra note, although it is probably RAI just for counting rank bonuses for CR, the 'LIGHT TROOPS' subheading on pg. 77 does say that skirmishers have 0 ranks. Seems to be a bit rules-lawyering to me to say that this means they can all fire as there are no ranks beyond the first, but I want to know the public's opinion on this.

So how exactly does TLoS work with ranked shooting units? I don't exactly have an opinion on the matter, it is something I have been trying to find a clear ruling on since this new rulebook was released.



"Assumed" seems to mean "we treat it like so" and "normally" means that there are exceptions, like the Volley Fire rule. :) Pretty clear, as they explain that you fire in 2 ranks.

Theo

theorox
25-11-2010, 10:27
Skirmishers still "have" ranks they just get no bonus from them atall in combat

for example if you hit a skirmisher unit with a bolt thrower it will still pierce ranks as will a cannon ball moving through the unit hit 1 model per rank

Actually...i don't think so at all. ;)

Where does it say that?

Theo

T10
25-11-2010, 10:42
Where does it state that skirmishers have ranks Lord_Elric?

While it is true that Skirmishers are considered to have zero ranks they are indeed arranged in ranks and files, same as other units. The fact that they are spaced out "roughly" half-an-inch apart doesn't change this.

-T10

Archangelion
26-11-2010, 10:14
Sorry T10, but the rules state on paget 77 under the Light Troops heading: "Skirmishers always count as having zero ranks..." Thus, even though they may look like they have something, the rules tell you that they infact do not.

Lord_Elric
26-11-2010, 10:36
Sorry T10, but the rules state on paget 77 under the Light Troops heading: "Skirmishers always count as having zero ranks..." Thus, even though they may look like they have something, the rules tell you that they infact do not.

that also means they cant get supporting attacks then also

T10
26-11-2010, 11:04
Sorry T10, but the rules state on paget 77 under the Light Troops heading: "Skirmishers always count as having zero ranks..." Thus, even though they may look like they have something, the rules tell you that they infact do not.

I'm going to be environment-friendly and respond with "Sure, why not."

-T10

Palatine Katinka
26-11-2010, 16:18
that also means they cant get supporting attacks then also

That would be true if the rules didn't then say "-they make supporting attacks as normal, however."

In support of the argument that they do have ranks (it's just that they count as 0) the Skirmishers Charging rules do mention the units ranks. Form up on the centre model of the first rank, number of ranks and files doesn't change... suggests that they do have ranks but when you are asked to count them the answer is changed to 0.

Loopstah
27-11-2010, 18:58
The rulebook FAQ changes "zero ranks" to "zero ranks in combat" implying that at all other times they have ranks.

Lord_Elric
27-11-2010, 19:02
The rulebook FAQ changes "zero ranks" to "zero ranks in combat" implying that at all other times they have ranks.

well spotted :D

Archangelion
27-11-2010, 21:42
Yes indeed. That solves those issues. Good job Loopstah!

belgarath97
29-11-2010, 20:05
On an extra note, although it is probably RAI just for counting rank bonuses for CR, the 'LIGHT TROOPS' subheading on pg. 77 does say that skirmishers have 0 ranks. Seems to be a bit rules-lawyering to me to say that this means they can all fire as there are no ranks beyond the first, but I want to know the public's opinion on this.


From the FAQ:

Change [...]zero ranks[...] to [...]zero ranks in combat[...].

Not to be rude, but sometime it is better to check the FAQ for your answers.

hamsterwheel
29-11-2010, 20:36
The word "assumed" is used in this case because irrelevent of whether they do have LOS, we assume that its blocked. The word "normally" is used because there are instances where special rules allow us to get around the two row rule such as Volley Fire. In this particular case, every rank will get to fire, but we measure LOS from the first rank.

H33D
29-11-2010, 23:23
From the FAQ:

Change [...]zero ranks[...] to [...]zero ranks in combat[...].

Not to be rude, but sometime it is better to check the FAQ for your answers.

(You failed) Right. Because people find what they are looking for 100% of the time.

Archangelion
30-11-2010, 02:18
Not true. I never did find my car keys that my son lost 5 years ago.