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Cobra_Commander
25-11-2010, 21:13
Well, I'm very new to WHF. I've been slowly putting together my warherd over the past year and a half but never played a game. I started collecting in the last armybook, but didn't collect a whole lot before the new armybook. So I wasn't really all too hurt. I have to say I liked the unique feel of the last one, but I'm not unhappy with this new one. I did start reading the Beastmen Tactica, but at about page 14 I got tired.

The main thing I'm curious about is what I should really be taking. With next to no save, and playing mainly against armies like DE, O&G, and WE. I get shot at a lot, and not much of my stuff makes it to them. And then I have to worry about when they shoot as a charge reaction, which really deters me from even charging in the first place. My few units of Gors just die in droves. I've mainly been playing at the 750pt level, so I'm not fighting anything too stupid. Last game I played a 2v2 game O&G and DE vs O&G beastmen. I used:

Wargor - H.Armour, Shield, Ramhornhelm
Bray-Shaman

Gor x17 - Shield, Musician
Warhounds x10
Minotaurs x6 - Shield, Musician

Minotaurs ran into a 45 block of orcs while taking bolt thrower fire and chewed them up. Warhounds flee'd as their charge reaction against Cold One Knights and ran off the board. Gors got shot up by DE crossbows. I pull my Wargor from the unit and try to combo assault, but that went horribly.

Out of everything The Mino's preformed the best, and I'm glad, cause I really like the unit. Everything else just... died. I'm really at a loss on what to do. Most of my stuff just dies coming up the board, and then I don't have much left when I get there. I tried running Gors with ahw, but not having any kind of save just meant they died real fast and handed them the combat. I tried some ambushing but that didn't go well. Possibly because I didn't put enough into ambushing.

I'm unsure whether or not I should give Gors full command, considering they just die so fast, I don't want to hand over any more points to what seems to be a suicide unit. So I mainly just give them a musician. Tried out Ungor Raiders. They... Didn't really do a whole lot. So I'm considering blocks of them. Anybody have experience with them?

I've been considering trying Bestigors, but now that you don't get first attack for charging, they just seem. Like a waste. Thoughts on them? Reading the tactics thread though makes me want to try Harpies.

Basically what I'm asking is:
- What ways are there to stop my guys from being shot to death before they do anything?
- Suggestions on next purchases?
- Ungors. Blocked, or Skirmishers?
- How to deal with Dark Elves?

Thanks
COOOBBBRRRAAA!!!

Evil Hypnotist
25-11-2010, 21:34
I am starting a BoC army soon and was thinking about using a lot of Tuskgor chariots seeing as they are core choices and will hit hard. Ungor units will be cheap and hopefully take the attention away from your Gors, try getting the skirmishers ambushing the shooty units that are causing the most problems.

Got no idea on the DE sorry, never faced them.

mrtn
25-11-2010, 22:21
Take a look at the Herdstone (link in my signature), a specific beastmen forum.

Firstly, you're playing at a points level that's not really optimal for Warhammer, so it's not strange if you get strange results.

A BSB is very important for Beastmen, but you can't afford one at 750 points (unless he's totally naked, which is not to recommend).

I see warhounds as more or less useless, though some of my fellow beastmen generals disagrees.


- What ways are there to stop my guys from being shot to death before they do anything?
In higher point games, take the Chalice of Dark Rain.


- Suggestions on next purchases?
Bestigors.


- Ungors. Blocked, or Skirmishers?
Blocked, and some skirmishers, but the tactics get better if you play higher point games. Ranked steadfast blocks can be effective, with some 35-40 ungors.

Here's a list I'd consider if I was playing a 750 point game:
Wargor with heavy armour, shield, Gnarled Hide, Sword of Might and Ramhorn helm. 1+ save general. No other characters.
25 gors with extra hand weapons, full command.
20 bestigors with standard and musician.
1 tuskgor chariot.
7 ungor raiders with a musician.

But as I said, you'd both be welcome to the Herdstone if you haven't checked us out yet. :)

Dreadgrass
25-11-2010, 22:29
Hi,

My suggestion with Gor or Ungor is to make the units big, around 30 is probably optimal. This ensures you can soak some shooting and still have numbers when you get into the fight. Also, split your hounds into 2 units of 5, as they're primarily there to get in the enemies way and delay part of their army whilst you pummel the other half.

I'd probably recommend cutting the minotaurs down to 3 or 4 and dropping the shields (As you loose parry once they become frenzied anyway). This will free up a lot of points for you to bulk out the list.

Also, I'd suggest in this low a points bracket to take only the 1 character, as again, it sinks a lot of points into a single model.

As for shooting protection, against BS based shooting, position your hounds between your good units and the enemy shooters to give them cover, if the enemy spends a round of shooting against the hounds instead, then so much the better! Also, the Chalice of Dark Rain is handy for holding them off for a turn.

Hope this helps a bit...

decker_cky
25-11-2010, 22:41
30 is too much in a 750 pt game. The list mrtn suggested looks solid for games that size. Maybe even run a L2 wizard instead of a wargor (give him Ld8 with the banner of discipline in the bestigors).

Minotaurs are successful for you, but with such and expensive unit, they're crippling the rest of the army. I'd drop them and build out from blocks of infantry - that's the 8th edition way.

Cobra_Commander
26-11-2010, 02:09
So you're saying I should focus more on having lots of units then the big scary Minotaur unit? I forgot about the Frenzy and the shields. But the extra hand weapon seems like a waste since I wont get the bonus from the supporting attacks. Maybe just leave them stock to save points.

Again I'm concerned about giving Ungors and Gors full command, since they don't seem to have the staying power. And I don't want to hand over more victory points with the standards. I would be fine just giving them musicians though.

I have been staying away from Bray Shamans considering I'm not too familiar with the Magic system, and I only have access to the BRB indirectly through my friends who own it. So I have no real clue about the other Lores or Magics times/standards I can take from that book. I don't mind the Beastmen Lore. #2 I feel is pretty awesome, considering most of the armies I play against are T3, which is still kind of difficult, but easier to achieve then against T4. I think I will stay away from Magic uses bar maybe a scroll caddy until I can play in 1.5k.

Why get Bestigors? I have ten of them from the battalion, but looking at them on paper. I just feel they wouldn't preform as good as some of the other Special choices. Other then Harpies -which the DE friend says they're crap for his army anyway, but I think that's just because he doesn't comprehend the huge advantage you get with flying scouters- Anything else? I picked up a Razorgor. Was planning on using it for a chariot. In total I have:

32 Gors (20 unassembled. 12 are xhw but I have been considering shields)
28 Ungores (10 as Raiders, 8 old Ungors. Unsure what to do with the other 10.)
9 Minotaurs (6 xhw may disassemble. 3 unassembled, may use them for Doom/Gorebulls)
10 Bestigors (Unassembled)
1 Beastlord (Unassembled)
1 Razorgor (Unassembled)

Thanks
COOOBBBRRRAAA!!!

Edit: Also, thanks for mentioning the Herdstone. I found that place and used it as a reference when I first started looking at Beastmen as my first Fantasy army. It was either them, or Night Goblins. But now with the New Starter box, that may be a lot harder to do.

mrtn
26-11-2010, 11:38
So you're saying I should focus more on having lots of units then the big scary Minotaur unit? I forgot about the Frenzy and the shields. But the extra hand weapon seems like a waste since I wont get the bonus from the supporting attacks. Maybe just leave them stock to save points.decker has been running naked minotaurs for a while, but now I think he's taken them out of his list.


Again I'm concerned about giving Ungors and Gors full command, since they don't seem to have the staying power. And I don't want to hand over more victory points with the standards. I would be fine just giving them musicians though.Standards will help giving you Fortitude for the Blood & Glory scenario, otherwise it turns into a "Kill Cobra's general and win" scenario. Plus they help you win combats, giving +1 CR. They're only worth victory points in some of the scenarios, and then only 25 each, take them.



I have been staying away from Bray Shamans considering I'm not too familiar with the Magic system, and I only have access to the BRB indirectly through my friends who own it. So I have no real clue about the other Lores or Magics times/standards I can take from that book. I don't mind the Beastmen Lore. #2 I feel is pretty awesome, considering most of the armies I play against are T3, which is still kind of difficult, but easier to achieve then against T4. I think I will stay away from Magic uses bar maybe a scroll caddy until I can play in 1.5k.
Whatever you do, don't take the Lore of the Wild, it's the worst lore in the game! If you take a low level shaman, do it for Wyssan's Wildform from the Beast lore in the BRB.

Why get Bestigors? I have ten of them from the battalion, but looking at them on paper. I just feel they wouldn't preform as good as some of the other Special choices. That may be because you only have ten. They are the single best unit option in the entire army! Remember, they have Primal Fury, i e reroll to hit. That means that you will consistently get 9ish S6 hits. This will eat through anything, like acid. But, you need more than ten, so you can absorb some casualties.


Other then Harpies -which the DE friend says they're crap for his army anyway, but I think that's just because he doesn't comprehend the huge advantage you get with flying scouters- Anything else? I picked up a Razorgor. Was planning on using it for a chariot. Harpies would be good to take out some of the shooting directed against you.

In total I have:

32 Gors (20 unassembled. 12 are xhw but I have been considering shields)
28 Ungores (10 as Raiders, 8 old Ungors. Unsure what to do with the other 10.)
9 Minotaurs (6 xhw may disassemble. 3 unassembled, may use them for Doom/Gorebulls)
10 Bestigors (Unassembled)
1 Beastlord (Unassembled)
1 Razorgor (Unassembled)
Don't take shields on your gors, AHW is much better (which is unfortunate since the shields look great).
I don't know what you mean with "old ungors", there are a couple of versions. Metal or plastic? Spears and/or shields?

decker_cky
26-11-2010, 14:41
decker has been running naked minotaurs for a while, but now I think he's taken them out of his list.

Just stopped running a minobus for now. I play a pretty big variety of beastmen lists. Running a gorebull and a gorebull BSB in a unit of minos with command and ASF sword on the champion (no weapons on the minos) was really successful, and I went 3-0 at a tournament against some fairly hard opponents. With some further testing, I'm coming to the opinion that if you don't have a mino character, there's no reason to take minos.


Standards will help giving you Fortitude for the Blood & Glory scenario, otherwise it turns into a "Kill Cobra's general and win" scenario. Plus they help you win combats, giving +1 CR. They're only worth victory points in some of the scenarios, and then only 25 each, take them.

Agreed. Take banners pretty much wherever you can. I'm even running them in blocks of 15 ungors or 10 gors!



Whatever you do, don't take the Lore of the Wild, it's the worst lore in the game! If you take a low level shaman, do it for Wyssan's Wildform from the Beast lore in the BRB.

Wyssan's wildform (beasts) is incredible. IMO, it's the best default spell. Shadows has a big better spell list beyond that (and miasma is still incredible), so I'd look at beasts or shadows. If you're taking a lord level caster, I'd consider death.


That may be because you only have ten. They are the single best unit option in the entire army! Remember, they have Primal Fury, i e reroll to hit. That means that you will consistently get 9ish S6 hits. This will eat through anything, like acid. But, you need more than ten, so you can absorb some casualties.

Great weapons are a headache, but as long as you have some spare bodies, always strikes last is no worse than striking at initiative 10! Bestigors are great for their killing, but don't forget their banner stealing. I lost out on some scenario bonus last tournament because I forgot about that.


Harpies would be good to take out some of the shooting directed against you.

Agreed. Scouting harpies are awesome. Even just 5 of them.


Don't take shields on your gors, AHW is much better (which is unfortunate since the shields look great).

Agreed. Some mixed equipment in the unit looks good, but AHW is almost universally better.

I don't know what you mean with "old ungors", there are a couple of versions. Metal or plastic? Spears and/or shields?

I think he means plastic (1 battalion + 1 old beast herd + 1 ungor herd covers his gor/ungor/bestigor numbers ;)). I'd use some spare handweapon arms from the new plastics (you've built raiders so must have some). It takes a little trimming to fit perfectly, but the old spears are a bit of a headache to maintain (they get bent, etc..) and spears aren't very good for ungors in general.

Cobra_Commander
27-11-2010, 11:12
I just finished playing a game with my friend who wanted to try out WoC so we had a nice game. We both Proxied a lot of things

His List to Memory

-Valkia
-Chaos Sorcerer - Lvl2 (Bare)

-Chaos Warriors x20 - MoT, HW&Shields, Full Command
-Marauders x30 - MoT, Light Armour, Shields, Full Command

-Chaos Chosen x24 - MoT, HW&Shield, Full Command, FoTC
-Trolls x6

-Warshrine

Possibly wrong on the unit sizes for Chosen it was a 2k list though

My List
Beastlord - Cleaver, H.Armour, Tuskgor Chariot, Ramhorn Helm - 266
Wargore - BSB, Totem of Rust - 150
Gorebull - BSB, Banner of Swift Striding, H. Armour - 208
Bray - Shaman - Lvl1, Dispel Scroll x1 - 100

Gor Herd x30 - XHW, Full Command - 265
Gor Herd x30 - XHW, Full Command - 265
Gor Herd x10 - XHW, Musician, Standard - 96
Gor Herd x10 - XHW, Musician, Standard - 96
Ungor Raiders x5 - 30
Ungor Raiders x5 - 30
Ungor Raiders x5 - 30
Ungor Raiders x5 - 30
Ungor Raiders x5 - 30

Minotaurs x5 - Full Command, ASF sword - 350

So game starts and I put both small Gor squads and two Raider squads in ambush. He gets first turn.

Now my plan was to just beat the crap out of the Chosen with the minotaurs because they were deployed right across from each other, and I felt I had the advantage with the ability to easily get the first turn charge. But then he rolls for EotG. And he gets them Terror. Crap. Well fine, it's alright, I'm Frenzied. I don't have to worry about that. Then he targets them with the War Shrine, and gives them a 4+ Ward save, and Stubborn. Fuuuuuuu-. So what would have been a fairly easy combat turned into trying to get through a 2+ ward save.

It was horrible. Valkia challanges the BSB, deals two wounds, out of all my attacks I killed 1 chosen. They break. I lost both standards. And he charges them in the rear on his turn. My other guys didn't fair much better. 30 block of Gors with Shaman gets charged by the Trolls. I manage to kill two. But he keeps getting EotG rolls, and it just becomes a protracted battle. Until said Chosen unit hits my flank and just starts picking me off. I did manage to roll Insane Courage. And then manage to get a Frenzy roll. But that fight was still just a losing battle. I did try out the Lore of Beast. So good. I didn't realize it's special rule applied strictly to my army. I think I'm going to be taking that from now on. Even managing to get the Lores #1 spell of a few times, but it just wasn't helping.

My other 30 block of Gors with Wargor BSB managed to get stuck in a forest for most of the game, and it ended up getting side charged by the now 3 strong Troll unit, and they break and get run down. I conceded after that. it was sitting in the forest just staring at the unit of Chaos Warriors for three turns as they slowly made there way through the forest. Doing terrible on their charge rolls. I felt they could have taken them with help from the Totem of Rust.

The only shining moment of the game was when my Beastlord flank charged the Marauder blob and ran it off the table without taking a wound, and then received a +1T, +1 Attack, +1 Armour'ed Valkia charge and managed to deal a single wound and save the only one dealt back. Tie combat though. That. And when his Sorcerer miscasted and nuked his own chosen unit. But again. 2+ ward save. Out of 11 str 10 wounds, only 1 died.

There were a few points where I realized I had messed up.

- I had to deploy three units of Raiders, and I missed out on controlling the Deployment by not placing them first.

- I probably should have taken 20 man strong Gor units, and with the points saved, taken some core chariots. I realized after I could have had a better chance at trying to take those big scary units if I would have combo charged them with Chariots in the flank and Gors up the center.

- I deployed a unit of Raiders where I should have put the Beastlord. He would have had the perfect angle to hit that Chosen unit in the flank, and possibly evened up the combat between them and the Minotaurs. Also, I ended up moving the same Raider unit beside my Chariot, when I would have had a perfect charge into said Chosen unit's rear. But still that 2+ ward was just horrible.

Some things to reflect one:

- I wanted to take some Bestigors, but by the time I got to that point, I had 376pts to spend, and my Minotaur unit came out to 350. So maybe next time. I think I'd run them 20 strong. Maybe even throw in the rust totem, considering the armies I play against, they wont even get a save anyways. And that would just desimate Chaos Warriors.

- Try using more chariots. They're cheap for a reason. And the one I did use did fairly well.

- I have to try and set up my charges better. Plan them out. I think I realize now that I have to combo charge if I expect to win a combat.

- I'll try more Ambushers out. The ones I did use didn't really do a whole lot. The big Marauder blob ran over my Ungor units , which did set it up for the flank charge from my chariot. must consider this more. All of mine came in on the first turn, and they did put him off when I first started laying them out. But the Ungors... Just really did nothing. I think I managed two kills on the Chaos Warrior unit with one squad of them. I probably shouldn't expect them to do a whole lot, since they're there to distract the opponent. And if they do, they've done their job.

Thats all for now. I thought I'd post this up and get more feedback. Thoughts?

COOOBBBRRRAAA!!!

mrtn
28-11-2010, 00:46
You can only have one BSB in the army.

I don't think Ambush is very effective at all. Instead of shrinking the big units I'd remove some small ones if you need more points.
Beastlord and gorebull would have benefited from shields.

Harwammer
28-11-2010, 08:46
I gotta point out the warshrine gives a 4++ wardsave (that becomes 3++ with Tzeentch). The parry bonus doesn't improve other wardsaves; only mark of tzeentch (and magic reistance) can do that.

The trick with beastmen is to make your leadership as good as possible; this makes primal fury so much more effective. I like giving my bsb banner of beasts and gnarled hide as this makes one of my core blocks so much more effective. The other way to do this is wildform but it sucks when you can't get the spell through. I've heard of players taking the herdstone shard and multiple LVL2 beast shamans to make wildform easier to get off but that seems a large investment to me.

Satan
28-11-2010, 09:52
You can only have one BSB in the army.

I don't think Ambush is very effective at all. Instead of shrinking the big units I'd remove some small ones if you need more points.
Beastlord and gorebull would have benefited from shields.

Played 3 games in our local tournament bout yesterday and Ambush was insanely good - then again I rolled 6's in two of the games, and I only kept a single unit of 25 gors in ambush. But up until that point I'd never had any success with it, but it pretty much made those games for me..

Satan
28-11-2010, 09:53
I gotta point out the warshrine gives a 4++ wardsave (that becomes 3++ with Tzeentch). The parry bonus doesn't improve other wardsaves; only mark of tzeentch (and magic reistance) can do that.

The trick with beastmen is to make your leadership as good as possible; this makes primal fury so much more effective. I like giving my bsb banner of beasts and gnarled hide as this makes one of my core blocks so much more effective. The other way to do this is wildform but it sucks when you can't get the spell through. I've heard of players taking the herdstone shard and multiple LVL2 beast shamans to make wildform easier to get off but that seems a large investment to me.

Do you guys take Banner of the Beast on your BSB inside a unit of Gors or Bestigors? How do you protect him?

Gotrek
28-11-2010, 11:02
gnarled hide, HA and shield.

2+AS, 6+WS with T5 and WS5. not the BEST but very reasonably protected from other troops

Harwammer
28-11-2010, 11:59
Yep, that's the protection he gets. As stated he goes in a core troop block to put them at a more respectable str4

Cobra_Commander
01-12-2010, 09:59
I gotta point out the warshrine gives a 4++ wardsave (that becomes 3++ with Tzeentch). The parry bonus doesn't improve other wardsaves; only mark of tzeentch (and magic reistance) can do that.

But isn't the Parry save infact a ward save? Or would this be one of the instances where if a model had multiples of the same save, you would just use the better of the two (Being the 4++ save) and then applying Mark of Tzeentch to that one?

The game was very helpful. I didn't realize you could only have one BSB though. It means I'm really going to have to think about which Banner I should take. Any suggestions on some good banners? The Banner of Swift Striding was pretty helpful. But maybe I should look at the +1 attack banner, but I wouldn't know who to give it to. I was considering the Totem of Rust in some Bestigors. But I would have to take quite a few bestigors. They can take magic banners correct? Don't have my book on me at the moment.

I like the idea of Ambushing. I just have to make sure what I'm ambushing with can actually do something. The blocks I did get in didn't do a whole lot. Maybe I should try 15-20 man blocks.

Thanks
COOOBBBRRRAAA!!!

mrtn
01-12-2010, 11:32
Or would this be one of the instances where if a model had multiples of the same save, you would just use the better of the two (Being the 4++ save) and then applying Mark of Tzeentch to that one?
Yes, you got it. 3+ it is.

As to banners, one common combo is to take your Beastlord in a Bestigor unit with Banner of Discipline (+1 Ld), effectively making him Ld10, and to take the Beast banner (+1 S) on a BSB in a gor or ungor unit.

Demandrer
18-12-2010, 15:46
Thanks guys just started beastmen and some useful info here!