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Polaria
27-11-2010, 09:32
So, by fluff, eldar are supposed to have technology so high that it is almost magic and yet, in the game, the eldar guardian is actually quite humble customer when compared to many other troops of other races. Or is he?

I came to think of this when buliding my latest Space Marine army and reading Imperial Guard codex as a pasttime. The catch is, guardian only seems "bad" when compared to a Space Marine. He is still better than Imperial Guardsmen are in many ways. Same save and mostly same statline, yes. But guardian has fleet, high Initiative and same Leadership as a Marine.

Then, reading Imperial Guard fluff, it hit me. Comparing Guardians with SM or IG troops isn't really fair. Space Marines are the pinnacle of uberness humans can generate when combining ancient artefact armors, hand-made boltguns, extensive selection process, years and years of training and genetherapies that make stemcells seem like stone-age tech.

Imperial Guardsmen (you know, those statline 3 guys) are highly trained professional soldiers. Basically the best troops each planet can deliver. They are not untrained masses (thats conscripts with WS/BS2). Their equipment is lowtech lasguns and flak, but they sure know how to fight.

Guardians, on the other hand, are the ultimate "citizen militia". These are not professional soldiers. These are the eldar who are living the Way of the Accountant, the Way of the Telephone Salesman, the Way of the Reality TV Host, the Way of the Burger King... These guys and gals are literally the not-so trained average joes and janes. So how on earth do they have WS/BS3 and Leadership equal to Space Marine if not because of the high technology bioplastic suits and combat, control and communcation interfaces?

This is, at least, what I came to think. Whats your take?

webba84
27-11-2010, 09:47
Ah, this old topic again, so nice to see it making the rounds :p

In all seriousness in answer to your question I would suggest two big reasons, the first being one of theme and fluff, the second being one of balance and gameplay.
Reason one is that they are aliens, there's no reason they need to be compared to the average trained human and therefore no reason why BS/WS3 can't represent a completely untrained Eldar. In fact it can be (and often to quite ludicrous extents is) argued that since the eldar as a race are thematically defined by skill and speed when they don't receive sufficient bonuses in those areas it comes across as the rules letting down the background.

The second reason is game and unit balance, Guardians are not very useful in the game right now even as heavy weapon ablative armor but even more importantly they're not any fun to play. They're fodder in an army that shouldn't have any fodder (unlike, say, orks or ig) and watching them die in droves, even in support of a victory is just painful. The metagame has an impact here as well since many stats where the eldar stand out (most significant probably being leadership and ws) are not very useful in the game (as opposed to st and toughness for example) and thus the modest bonuses they get which barely manage to drag them above average (not even counting poorly designed equipment such as the shuriken catapult which is by no means weak but still manages to be almost useless) completely fail to make them either thematic or useful.

In short, they're a complete failure of game design.

Pontiff
27-11-2010, 11:14
Its also because Eldar Guardians may also have previously been warriors on a former path (perhaps 40 years ago, perhaps 400)... so on average they retain some of those skills.

In an eldar lifestyle you might be a poet, then architect.. move to be an aspect warrior, back to being a poet, steersman on a ship for a decade then back to aspect warrior again.

Some get stuck on the warrior path and become exarchs.

Thats my take on it.. its because on *average* probabaly 50 per cent of those guardians have been aspect warriors in the past... sure some are picking up a shuriken catapult for the first time rather than a paintbrush but it averages out.

Eldar guardians are largely there as a legacy. When the first proper list came out in white dwarf 127 you had to have something to do with all the 'eldar pirate' miniatures we'd had for years. The product line was far sparser then so rather than binning lines of miniatures they tended to be incorporated into ranges as reserve troops. I think since then people have just got used to them being there.

Hellebore
27-11-2010, 11:31
If it was an infantry fight, guard vs guardians in 40k, the guard would win. 24" S3 shots will and do obliterate guardians until there aren't enough within their 12" range to kill many guardsmen.

If you want to look at militia training vs stats, would a non conscript human be WS1? Or are we saying that conscripts have no training and are just a dude with a gun? Guardian militia are like those countries with mandatory military service. They get basic training in their armour and weapons and are left to go about their day.

As guardians guide/pilot and fire grav platforms, support platforms, war walkers, jetbikes, vypers, falcons, wave serpents, fire prisms and even super heavy tanks, one would assume they require training. Unless we are saying that their technology is so user friendly that they don't need training and can just use it, in which case why aren't all guardians using weapon platforms and jetbikes?

Hellebore

Sephiroth
27-11-2010, 12:25
I always liked the idea Eldar Guardians weren't Joe Average plucked from the wraithbone street, given a physical then issued a weapon and armour, but Eldar whom had previously walked the Path of the Warrior before moving on.

In terms of rules/background though, I think Guardians are one of those things which really needs to be reconsidered when GW redo the Eldar; Background-wise, they aren't the Eldar's line warrior (that would be the Dire Avenger), they're a desperation measure, there to bulk out numbers in large-scale conflicts where the Aspect Warriors would be swallowed up.

Rules-wise, this unfortunately means they tend to end up/come off as a meatshield unit for Aspect Warriors - which just flies in the face of the Eldar archetype.

Hendarion
27-11-2010, 12:27
Its also because Eldar Guardians may also have previously been warriors on a former path (perhaps 40 years ago, perhaps 400)... so on average they retain some of those skills.
Not fully true. Eldar are explicitly said to link their skills to their armour and wearing a Guardian armour will not give them back the skill they had in their Aspect armour.


Thats my take on it.. its because on *average* probabaly 50 per cent of those guardians have been aspect warriors in the past...
No offence, but please do not make up numbers out of nowhere. If you have a source to backup that number, please quote it. If not, please do not create any kind of number out of thin air.

Pontiff
27-11-2010, 13:15
Not fully true. Eldar are explicitly said to link their skills to their armour and wearing a Guardian armour will not give them back the skill they had in their Aspect armour.


No offence, but please do not make up numbers out of nowhere. If you have a source to backup that number, please quote it. If not, please do not create any kind of number out of thin air.

No offence but its a *game* dude, its a hypothesis about toy space elves.. it doesnt require a source.. tbh requiring a 'definite answer' to things is what kills 40k. its supposed to be open ended and mysterious. It was a turn of phrase please take it as such.

And also note that I said 'some skills' I dont actually mean skills in the terms of game abilities, i mean having a military background in a former path and familiarity with weapons rather than the 'untrained militia' argument.

For a real world ananolgy think that the army has a volunteer reserve of previous career soldiers... in the event of a *massive* major war where conscription was once again entertained then these guys would step in while conscripted forces were mobilised/drafted. While they wouldnt be as good as current serving young soldiers (they'd have a drop in their skil base, they might not know the new weapons systems etc) they would still be far more effective than the first draft of conscripts who mights (if lucky) have had a months training compared to the 3 years minimum of the volunteer reserve of veterans.

White Dwarf 127's Eldar List states, however, in the words of Rick Priestly himself "Regardless of their current vocation all eldar are trained to take their postion in the eldar armies when needed"

So logically, if all are trained and if eldar are a long lived yet dying race (living centuries?) and each path lasts about a few decades (again the implication in the same article) then it really isnt a massive stretch of the imagination to think that a fair few will have been aspect warriors in the past as well.

And thats what its all about really imagination, mystery and a big dark universe where nothing is really known for sure. :)

But, given the background stated by the guy who created the race, the overall level of training of guardians is going to be far higher than comparable human militia.

At the end of the day its toy soldiers, its not really a big deal is it?

Hendarion
27-11-2010, 14:49
Yea, its a game of toy soldiers. But if you give a reply regarding background of these, then please, do not create your own fictional numbers. They have no relation to the game or background, they are just your own imagination. That is not part of this forum or discussion.
So yes, if you are making an argument based on the informations released by Games Workshop, you have to present them correctly and if you are taking numbers that are odd, you have to back them up with a source or you do not mention them. This is a talk about stuff created by GW, not by you.

spetswalshe
27-11-2010, 17:15
I always found the idea of a former Aspect losing all his combat skills a bit silly. I haven't read the recent Path of the Warrior stuff but I think I understand the idea - that it's basically an induced disassociative personality disorder to protect the emotional well-being of the Eldar in question. However, when the fates of the Eldar himself and his Craftworld are at stake, it seems ridiculous that they wouldn't tap into that experience. I'd prefer it if former Aspects re-joined them for the duration of the conflict - Eldar don't seem the type to have much in the way of skill degredation - or maybe if they just took 'advanced' roles, as Storm Guardians (for CC Aspects), special/heavy weapons troopers (for shooty Aspects) or squad leaders (for generic Aspects).

It makes sense for Eldar to be superior combatants than humans, in my opinion - they're physically superior (in terms of speed and agility) and, more importantly, emotionally better suited to warfare - more disciplined, better motivated and so on. Nevertheless it does, as others mentioned, fly in the face of the standard battle tactics of Craftworlders to use them in small-scale battles like 40k games, except in extenuating circumstances (but then when isn't a Craftworld on the brink of extinction?).

Kage2020
27-11-2010, 17:21
Not fully true. Eldar are explicitly said to link their skills to their armour and wearing a Guardian armour will not give them back the skill they had in their Aspect armour.
Source?

Kage

Hendarion
27-11-2010, 18:06
Source?

Kage
Codex Eldar, 2nd Edition, Page 8, paragraph 5.

w00tm0ng3r
27-11-2010, 18:13
It's my understanding that eldar DO retain SOME skills/knowledge from their aspect warrior days. The codex says that storm guardians all used to be in the close combat aspects and that guardian squads are led by guys with former aspect training. This implies they keep some stuff from the aspects, since if they didn't it wouldn't make a lick of difference if they used to be aspects or not.

Bergen Beerbelly
27-11-2010, 18:19
I've found guardians good to guard a squadron of D-Cannons from getting charged by outflanking units like Space Wolf Scouts or Ork Commando's. I give them an Eldar Missile launcher and put it on one flank or the other of the D-Cannons I'm surrounding from the rear. It seems to work well for me.

SgtTaters
27-11-2010, 18:41
look at WHFB though, the high elve's and dark elve's militiamen are ws4 bs4 i5 compared to empire's professional soldiers at ws3 bs3 i3 and bretonnia's muddy diseased peasants at ws2

I don't think anyone cries foul over that, it seems to be balanced, and then the elves get bonus rules in addition to that like hate everyone and always strike first. If 40k had stat lines more like WHFB it would be cool.
Then again, 40k orks are way more powerful than FB orcs.

Kage2020
27-11-2010, 18:56
Codex Eldar, 2nd Edition, Page 8, paragraph 5.
I believe I know what you're referring to and am almost certain that it doesn't say what you think it says, but since I don't have that particular book to hand (having given up playing the wargame before 1994), so would you care to transcribe that particular paragraph in question. Memory is ever a hazy thing and you might not be referring to where the Aspect Warrior dons their helmet.

Kage

BigBarryJazz
27-11-2010, 19:08
Currently no where near my copy to verify, but I think it mentioned in the 2nd ed. codex that guardian squad leaders were usually former aspect warriors. the only difference it made in game though was that they could take a special weapon.

Hendarion
27-11-2010, 21:09
I believe I know what you're referring to and am almost certain that it doesn't say what you think it says, but since I don't have that particular book to hand (having given up playing the wargame before 1994), so would you care to transcribe that particular paragraph in question. Memory is ever a hazy thing and you might not be referring to where the Aspect Warrior dons their helmet.

Kage
It is a German Codex, so I'll translate:
"The units of the Guardians are lead by former Aspect Warriors that have once learned the art of combat, but now walk a different path. Even if their experience will never leave them, they still would require their old Aspect Warrior armours to regain full skill/powers (a bit buzzy to translate here)."

That proves that even if they walked the Aspect path before (opposite to most normal Guardians btw according to that fluff), they do really require that very armour to get all of their powers. Are you satisfied now? I can't give you an exact quote, someone with an English Codex surely may.

So no, I am not refering to where the Aspect Warriors put their helmets. I am speaking about Guardians that once walked the path of war and won't be same skilful by using a Guardian armour. This is a tiny piece of fluff, but I think it adds a very important fact: Not only the skill of Phoenix Lords and Exarchs is bound to armours, but actually of all Eldar, even if to a much less extent. That makes the entire fluff pretty canon within itself and more obvious that Exarchs are just the extremes and Phoenix Lords even further. But they are not an exception.

Kage2020
27-11-2010, 21:22
Heh, you were right it wasn't the bit about the helmets. Of course, it is related to it and therein may lie a point or a discussion. (Incidentally, I asked to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek since you were demanding sources, but also because it is consistent with my own interpretation of the Eldar... sorta.) :D

Kage

TheLaughingGod
27-11-2010, 21:25
Currently no where near my copy to verify, but I think it mentioned in the 2nd ed. codex that guardian squad leaders were usually former aspect warriors. the only difference it made in game though was that they could take a special weapon.

This is correct. It was also in WD127 when Craftworld Eldar came to Rogue Trader.

My main issue with guardians as they're represented is the quality of their weapons and gear.

Considering that Guardians Defenders are the mainstay of most craftworlds (the fact that they do everything from man weapons, to scout, to fly grav-tanks, pilot walkers and such indicates that Guardians are involved in nearly all conflicts) the older lore even says outright they handle battlefield engineer and technical roles as well.

Yet they're essentially given weak armor and shotguns. Not exactly good for anything except suicide charges. Now, I know their dark kin have similar armor, but considering that the Craftworlders value life a little more (they don't have regeneration torture-tech) you'd think they'd either give them better protection or better guns. I'm hoping we see a revamp of them in the next release with at the very least, longer ranged weapons so they can fight from a reasonable distance.

If we're really lucky maybe we'll see some options beyond a heavy weapon, such as some sort of combat engineer role or a guardian command squad made up of former aspect warriors. Doesn't have to be just like the IG one, but could be a group of specialists in guardian gear who handle logistics for the Autarch or Farseer. More of a support unit than a combat unit (to contrast Warlock bodyguards). Could be an Artificer who master-crafts weapons for a squad, a healer (not FNP), an actual Spiritseer (rather than a Warlock with an ability), a Pathfinder who leads a squad of troops into position, that sort of thing.

Combat engineers could have the ability to fortify terrain or obscure things with camoline and holofields and repair damaged vehicles, wraiths and artillery pieces. Maybe the ability to rig a piece of terrain to be dangerous. (plasma charges, melta mines, webs of invisible monowire)

Edit: The bit about storm guardians being former aspect warriors was a little blurb in 3rd ed codex. It's generally contradicted everywhere else and wasn't mentioned in the 4th Ed codex.

The Orange
27-11-2010, 21:46
Not fully true. Eldar are explicitly said to link their skills to their armour and wearing a Guardian armour will not give them back the skill they had in their Aspect armour.

Isen't that sort of retconned by the introduction of the Autarch? Who's gone down several paths and thus can sort of blend them together now, despite only using pieces of wargear from several aspects. (and I guess you could say their armor's origin is so far unknown)

Kage2020
27-11-2010, 23:03
And therein lies the rub. The Autarch as described was never needed since its position was already filled by an established bit of 'fluff.' :D

Kage

Son of Sanguinius
27-11-2010, 23:04
What occupied that position previously?

Kage2020
27-11-2010, 23:27
Arguably? The Menshad Korum. Much the same without trying to wangle in some "Path of Command."

YMMV, of course. :D

Kage

Son of Sanguinius
27-11-2010, 23:33
Arguably? The Menshad Korum. Much the same without trying to wangle in some "Path of Command."

YMMV, of course. :D

Kage

Ah, okay. I thought you were speaking in terms of a role as an army general. I do agree with the sentiment that the Autarch was a poorly executed invention to give the Eldar a dedicated combat character other than the Avatar and to blandly imitate more experienced Exarchs.

Kage2020
27-11-2010, 23:45
Thus what happens with "game balance" when intersecting with "thematic army." :D

Kage

Bergen Beerbelly
28-11-2010, 00:01
According to the 2nd edition Epic game the position now held by the Autarch is the same position that used to be held by Warlocks.

Kage2020
28-11-2010, 00:12
Perhaps unsurprising given the arguable fallacy of Farseers being the (only?) leaders of the Eldar...

Kage

Col. Tartleton
28-11-2010, 00:16
Eldar are cool.

I for one would like it very much if one could build an effective list without anything fancy. No aspects, no wraiths, no Avatar, not tank spam, not all mounted on bikes.

I trace it back to the fact that Marine are not Uber enough that Eldar aren't either. I think we can all agree a Guardian should be better than a Guardsman and worse than a Marine. A guard squad is like 50 points. A Marine squad is like 170 points. Which means that Guardians should be somewhere in between.

In the fluff marine are more like 50 points a piece. Which allows a guardian to be 15-25 points. A 15-25 point Guardian gets whomped by a 50 point marine but whomps a 5 point guardsman.

Why isn't that done? Product sales. Its unfair to the Guard Ork or Nid player that he needs 10+ men for every marine to match points in an infantry heavy match and you end up with (in theory...) not enough marines sold. And if marines don't sell... bankruptcy? :rolleyes:

A guard player shouldn't have to spend 10x the cash for the same points (though they actually want to, let me tell you.:angel:)

Iracundus
28-11-2010, 00:18
Why isn't that done? Product sales. Its unfair to the Guard Ork or Nid player that he needs 10+ men for every marine to match points in an infantry heavy match and you end up with (in theory...) not enough marines sold. And if marines don't sell... bankruptcy? :rolleyes:

A guard player shouldn't have to spend 10x the cash for the same points (though they actually want to, let me tell you.:angel:)

That's the whole point of playing horde armies. Horde vs horde have been some of the more exciting games than the same old MEQ each time.

TheLaughingGod
28-11-2010, 00:22
Autarch would work if they made a High Exarch/Menshad Korum as well and contrasted raw combat (exarch) with support/command (autarch)

Though, if I had to pick one, I'd pick Menshad Korum. So much cooler.

Iracundus
28-11-2010, 00:23
Autarch would work if they made a High Exarch/Menshad Korum as well and contrasted raw combat (exarch) with support/command (autarch)

Though, if I had to pick one, I'd pick Menshad Korum. So much cooler.

The fluff has been retconned. Whereas before Exarchs were trapped on the Path of the Warrior in general and could rotate between Aspects, Exarchs are now trapped on their Aspect within the Path of the Warrior.

TheLaughingGod
28-11-2010, 00:29
The fluff has been retconned. Whereas before Exarchs were trapped on the Path of the Warrior in general and could rotate between Aspects, Exarchs are now trapped on their Aspect within the Path of the Warrior.

Not really. Menshad Korum were different than normal Exarchs. Autarchs are a double retcon anyways. Once in Epic and then again in 4th ed.

Kage2020
28-11-2010, 00:33
Agreed. I see no need for the retconn nor the idea that one must accept it. Well, unless your playing the wargame in tournament in which case it is required and understandable.

:D

Kage

Iracundus
28-11-2010, 00:34
Not really. Menshad Korum were different than normal Exarchs. Autarchs are a double retcon anyways. Once in Epic and then again in 4th ed.

The Menshad Korum was just an Exarch that cycled, while still being trapped on the Path of the Warrior as a whole. Autarchs aren't a double retcon. It was a single retcon. Previously the Autarch in Epic 40,000 was an adoption of the Menshad Korum idea, being an appointed Exarch to take command of the overall host. This was briefly adopted by 40K (fluff wise in Index Xenos: Swordwind though not rules as this occurred before the latest Eldar Codex). However even then, there were changes as there was little mention of cycling through Aspects, since Exarchs were already then trapped on their Aspect rather than just the Path in general. By the time the Eldar Codex was released again, at that point there was the retcon of the Autarch and therefore also the Epic Autarch.

In any case, that is how the situation currently stands. The old concept of the Menshad Korum no longer makes sense since now Exarchs are trapped on Aspects rather than just the Path in general. It makes even less sense if you go by the Exarchs fusing to their armor background, as it would mean the Exarchs are fused to the armor of their Aspect. Unless it is retconned again, that is how the canon currently stands just as how it is canon Farseers are trapped on the Path of the Seer and turn to crystal. With the incorporation of the Autarch idea into Yriel's background, who is not trapped on any Path, the old idea of the Autarch looks well and truly retconned and dead.

Hellebore
28-11-2010, 01:20
Which imo is a real shame as the original eldar background is far more interesting than the current stuff. Why they felt the need to make the autarch the way he is I don't know. It doesn't make sense that someone trained by a master of the aspect ends up being better than that master, despite not attaining their level of excellence. If for no other reason than because he's not spending as long on that aspect as the exarch trapped on it (ie, the rest of their life).

They have gone back to original themes in several cases, most notably the daemons. I can only hope they go back to the original and imo stronger concepts of the original background. The changes have had knock on effects that have weakened other areas of eldar background imo. The marginalisation of exarchs and warlocks amongst them.

Hellebore

Retribution
28-11-2010, 03:07
I think the idea of a dying race arming it's populace in the worst armor possible and weapons with the same range as a shotgun seems rather preposterous, but that's the problem when you cross over from background to actual game design

Drasanil
28-11-2010, 04:04
I think the idea of a dying race arming it's populace in the worst armor possible and weapons with the same range as a shotgun seems rather preposterous, but that's the problem when you cross over from background to actual game design

This.

That guardian stats are kind of pants is one thing they are basicly militia but their equipment should be ace none the less, just on account of the eldar's tech level. But it's a game balance/theme issue, both DE warriors and Guardians should have basic armaments that put Fire Warrior squads to shame.

Same with Vehicles, eldar tech should allow Raiders and Falcons to be high-speed skimmers and have the resiliency of a Leman Russ.

webba84
28-11-2010, 05:37
Thus what happens with "game balance" when intersecting with "thematic army." :D

Kage


I think the idea of a dying race arming it's populace in the worst armor possible and weapons with the same range as a shotgun seems rather preposterous, but that's the problem when you cross over from background to actual game design


This.

That guardian stats are kind of pants is one thing they are basicly militia but their equipment should be ace none the less, just on account of the eldar's tech level. But it's a game balance/theme issue, both DE warriors and Guardians should have basic armaments that put Fire Warrior squads to shame.

Same with Vehicles, eldar tech should allow Raiders and Falcons to be high-speed skimmers and have the resiliency of a Leman Russ.

The sad part is that none of this discrepancy between game balance and thematic army is even necessary. The situation of Guardians is not some unavoidable consequence of game balance, it's just bad game design.

Hendarion
28-11-2010, 06:17
(Incidentally, I asked to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek since you were demanding sources.)
I'm aware of that ;)

MagosHereticus
28-11-2010, 06:45
It is a German Codex, so I'll translate:
"The units of the Guardians are lead by former Aspect Warriors that have once learned the art of combat, but now walk a different path. Even if their experience will never leave them, they still would require their old Aspect Warrior armours to regain full skill/powers (a bit buzzy to translate here)."

That proves that even if they walked the Aspect path before (opposite to most normal Guardians btw according to that fluff), they do really require that very armour to get all of their powers. Are you satisfied now? I can't give you an exact quote, someone with an English Codex surely may.

So no, I am not refering to where the Aspect Warriors put their helmets. I am speaking about Guardians that once walked the path of war and won't be same skilful by using a Guardian armour. This is a tiny piece of fluff, but I think it adds a very important fact: Not only the skill of Phoenix Lords and Exarchs is bound to armours, but actually of all Eldar, even if to a much less extent. That makes the entire fluff pretty canon within itself and more obvious that Exarchs are just the extremes and Phoenix Lords even further. But they are not an exception.

exarchs and pheonix lords are very different to normal eldar warriors as they use the souls of past warriors (or in the case of pheonix lords, the dead use them), guardian armour and normal armour however is just a thing, an object, it is not special of its self, what it does do however is act like a key to open part of the eldars mind that is normally locked, for the sake of the eldar

an eldar may be able to break those internal walls down without the rituals of donning the armour, but doing that would be abandoning the eldar path (and risking damnation) this might be what makes eldar pirates so dangerous

Hendarion
28-11-2010, 07:02
I'm aware of that. But thanks.

spetswalshe
28-11-2010, 12:37
That's the whole point of playing horde armies. Horde vs horde have been some of the more exciting games than the same old MEQ each time.

You know you're in for a good game when both players have to move their models with a snow shovel.

Kage2020
28-11-2010, 13:25
Which imo is a real shame as the original eldar background is far more interesting than the current stuff.
Well, I tend to think that about the majority of the 'fluff' that is being churned out by GW and their licensees at the moment. There are some gems in it, though.

Edit: No, that's not particularly fair on my behalf. Rather, while there are certainly some gems--some really excellent and creative materials--being put out there, there is just some tosh that seems to stick in my mind (and my throat) more than in previous iterations of the background. That makes it more a "me" issue than a defining feature, but there you have it.


That guardian stats are kind of pants is one thing they are basicly militia but their equipment should be ace none the less, just on account of the eldar's tech level.
Unfortunately this shades over into the RPG as well. It's an old soap box, but when the armour of one of the most advanced species in the galaxy comes down to "gem studded carapace"...? Well, it seems that lowest common denominator might also have a meaning outside of mathematics. :shifty:


But it's a game balance/theme issue, both DE warriors and Guardians should have basic armaments that put Fire Warrior squads to shame.
Don't forget fun. If the 40k wargame were to model a mesolithic "tribe" vs. a company of first world military, the chances are that they (either of them) would win 50% of the time under equal circumstances. It's just the nature of the beast.


I'm aware of that
This is the interwebz. Bristling is not just a fantasy wood but a natural by-product of unexplained but obvious (to the author) tongue-in-cheekery. :D


an eldar may be able to break those internal walls down without the rituals of donning the armour, but doing that would be abandoning the eldar path (and risking damnation) this might be what makes eldar pirates so dangerous
That's how I personally moderate it, out of interest, for all skills and not just those of the Warrior's Path. Everything is locked behind a "barrier" in the psyche and is only available when you walk a given Way or a given Path. Change Way or Path and the skills get tucked behind the barrier again. If you want to use them outside of a specific Way--an artist remembering how to fix the Infinity Circuit, for example--you reach through the barrier and risk that "damnation," a return to an almost atavistic state where you might lose everything that you are/were.

Not everyone's cup of tea, but it works for me.

Kage

Son of Sanguinius
28-11-2010, 17:56
Speak for yourself, Kage. I have an entire grove of Bristling Trees.

Kage2020
28-11-2010, 23:02
LOL... I've seen much the same, Son of Sanguinius, though elsewhere. :D

Kage