PDA

View Full Version : Eldar Questions



The Inevitable One
28-11-2010, 00:06
I was reading various things related to the Eldar and I had a few questions:

1) Who where the Eldar created by? Was it Isha, Khaine, etc. or was it the Old Ones? This confused me because it is said that the Old Ones created the Eldar, yet the Eldar Gods, Isha and Kurnous, are the parents of the Eldar. And the Old Ones can't be the Eldar Gods for the Eldar Gods were warp entities.

2) How is it that most of the Eldar Gods were killed if they are Warp Entities much like the Chaos Gods, who are immortal?

3) What happens when the Eldar and their cousins, the Dark Eldar, come across each other? I know each of them thinks that they are going the right way, but do they flat out attack each other or do they kind of give them the finger and be off on whatever they were doing before?

4) If Eldar Harlequins can free themselves from the soul sucking Slaaneth, why doesn't every Eldar try to become one?

Aanndd...start!

Iracundus
28-11-2010, 00:14
I was reading various things related to the Eldar and I had a few questions:

1) Who where the Eldar created by? Was it Isha, Khaine, etc. or was it the Old Ones? This confused me because it is said that the Old Ones created the Eldar, yet the Eldar Gods, Isha and Kurnous, are the parents of the Eldar. And the Old Ones can't be the Eldar Gods for the Eldar Gods were warp entities.


None of the above. It says in the Necron Codex the Old Ones "manipulated life into new forms" and nurtured races, but does not say they outright created them. The Eldar may believe they were created by their gods, but that does not make it true either. If they believe their gods created them, they may well have formed gods that believe they created the Eldar, even if this were not true since belief can shape the warp.

The Eldar could have been a naturally evolved species that was modified along the way by the Old Ones, and that culturally believed their gods created them, forming warp gods that shared that same belief.



2) How is it that most of the Eldar Gods were killed if they are Warp Entities much like the Chaos Gods, who are immortal?

Chaos gods are not immortal as in being immune to everything. They are immune to such things as death by old age but they are still conglomerates of warp/psychic energy. If they were to grow weak and dissipate or be torn and consumed by another entity then they could still die. The original Realms of Chaos describes warp entities as giant warp vortices that still can shed or gain energy. In the latest Dark Eldar Codex, the traditional Eldar deities are described as the "ailing pantheon" due to the increasingly decadent Eldar neglecting them in favor of their pursuits and the "Dark Muses", suggesting the Eldar deities were weakened shadows of their former selves by the time Slaanesh was born.



4) If Eldar Harlequins can free themselves from the soul sucking Slaaneth, why doesn't every Eldar try to become one?


It is Slaanesh. The Harlequins do so via a ritual, but in the test Harlequin Codex it was suggested not everyone is suitable or can survive it. Also there is what is the longer term implication, because thus far it seems the Harlequins survive by pledging themselves to the Laughing God, and in the process sacrificing their own self identities, in effect taking on the parts of the roles they play in their performances. Trading away their personal freedom and identity for religious slavery (albeit to a more benign god) may be a fate intolerable for the other Eldar.

Kage2020
28-11-2010, 00:19
1) Who where the Eldar created by? Was it Isha, Khaine, etc. or was it the Old Ones? This confused me because it is said that the Old Ones created the Eldar, yet the Eldar Gods, Isha and Kurnous, are the parents of the Eldar. And the Old Ones can't be the Eldar Gods for the Eldar Gods were warp entities.
According to Eldar mythology they are the children of Isha and Kurnuous. Mythology isn't necessarily real, though it is commonly mistaken as such by many.

With the somewhat ham-fisted 'fluff' revolving around the Old Ones and the "War in Heaven," more specifically the dubious material in Xenology, some argue that this is proof that the Old Ones are the Eldar Gods. Others also cite other materials in Xenology as proof of this, not just the quirky "stone tablet."

Regardless of all that, it would appear that the general consensus is that the Eldar are, like many of the other races, "uplifted" by the Old Ones.


2) How is it that most of the Eldar Gods were killed if they are Warp Entities much like the Chaos Gods, who are immortal?
Because.

Yup, that's about it. It's the warp and the general gist of it is that it doesn't have to make sense, which is lucky because when most of the authors are writing about it it frequently doesn't make sense. So bases covered there. :shifty:

If you want a funky alternative there is always "The Greatest Secret," which applies the second law of thermodynamics to warp entities because, well, that makes as much sense as anything else. ;)


3) What happens when the Eldar and their cousins, the Dark Eldar, come across each other? I know each of them thinks that they are going the right way, but do they flat out attack each other or do they kind of give them the finger and be off on whatever they were doing before?
This is 40k. Thus the reactions are determined by what you want to happen. If you want them to attack then they do. Also, note armour, damage and a whole myriad of other factors are completely mutable depending on who is the protagonist and who is the antagonist.


4) If Eldar Harlequins can free themselves from the soul sucking Slaaneth, why doesn't every Eldar try to become one?
One imagines that it is because Harlequins have a special relationship with the Laughing God. Some might argue that this makes them very much "avatars" or "clerics" of the Laughing God. YMMV on this, though.

Kage

MEcorp
28-11-2010, 00:23
1) The Eldar were guided in evolution by the Old Ones, who likely fixed their genome at some 'perfect' point. The Eldar then created their own gods using their psykic powers. The myths about the gods being the source of the eldar is just that, the eldar, like most races believe they were created by gods.

2) The Eldar gods were consumed into the Chaos gods. Energy is immortal but it rarely stays in one form for long, the same is true of the warp and thus warp entities.

3) It depends somewhat on the DE and the CW present but generally violence is the only acceptable solution. If the Craftworlders believe that harm will come from an engagement they will flee. If the DE think they might lose they will flee. Otherwise its time for a good-old-fashioned civil war.

4) The DE don't try to be Harlequin's because Harlequin's are boring, they lead lives of dedication and solitude. The CWE don't all try to become Harlequin's because its an incredibly difficult, painstaking process and in the end you kind of just wind up in the same situation. After all, CWE souls aren't in that much danger because of the soulstones they each wear.

The Inevitable One
28-11-2010, 01:00
Another question on my mind is, are both the Eldar and Humans related? Perhaps de-evolved Eldar?

Iracundus
28-11-2010, 01:29
Another question on my mind is, are both the Eldar and Humans related? Perhaps de-evolved Eldar?

No, they are not related (if you disregard the old ancient and now inconsistent RT era fluff of half-Eldar). Humans however were tinkered with at some level by the Old Ones as well, though in the Necron Codex, an Eldar Farseer muses that they developed in unforeseen ways after the War in Heaven. So the humans were a work in progress that was never finished.

The tinkering by Old Ones in the galaxy would explain the frequency of the humanoid body plan, since it seems the Old Ones liked to work on similar themes or templates.

TheLaughingGod
28-11-2010, 01:39
Not everyone is a Harlequin because the initiation involves a possession.
It's not a palatable proposition to most, and even for those who are dedicated enough to allow a Keeper of Secrets to possess them, they are not all strong enough to fight it off and become a true Harlequin. Or worse, become a Solitare

Iracundus
28-11-2010, 01:49
Not everyone is a Harlequin because the initiation involves a possession.
It's not a palatable proposition to most, and even for those who are dedicated enough to allow a Keeper of Secrets to possess them, they are not all strong enough to fight it off and become a true Harlequin. Or worse, become a Solitare

That is not true. There is no evidence whatsoever that the ritual to being a Harlequin involves possession. This is again one of those falsely perpetuated rumors or fan theories with no backing. Every time a request has been made for quoted evidence behind this claim there has been a very conspicuous silence.

The Inevitable One
28-11-2010, 02:02
That is not true. There is no evidence whatsoever that the ritual to being a Harlequin involves possession. This is again one of those falsely perpetuated rumors or fan theories with no backing. Every time a request has been made for quoted evidence behind this claim there has been a very conspicuous silence.

Citadel Journal #10.


This ritual consist of an Eldar being possessed by a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh and throwing it off. This causes one of three things to happen. The first is that the Eldar will throw off the possession of the daemon and therefore be both illuminated and never have to fear the warp again. The second is that the Eldar's soul will be lost and the Harlequin present at the ritual must put down the possessed Eldar's body. The third is that the Eldar's soul will be ripped free from its body, even though it was able to cast the daemon out and retain control of itself. This final result is how a Solitaire is born.

Chaplain of Chaos
28-11-2010, 03:01
Oh Snap! :)


In the Dark Eldar codex there is a moment when a Wych Cult and Kabal come to the aid of Craftworld Iyanden against an Ork Waagh.

Iracundus
28-11-2010, 04:41
Citadel Journal #10.

Nobody has yet to be able to quote the relevant passage. There is no mention of any Harlequin content in the online version of the table of contents:

http://www.gamehobby.net/citadel_journal/citadel_journal_10.html


This topic has come up before in this forum ( http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278263&page=17 ) and people have also tried to say Citadel Journal #10, but in past threads when asked to quote the relevant parts from that Citadel Journal (given the lack of any mention in the Table of Contents) there has been silence.

The Inevitable One
28-11-2010, 04:51
Nobody has yet to be able to quote the relevant passage. There is no mention of any Harlequin content in the online version of the table of contents:

http://www.gamehobby.net/citadel_journal/citadel_journal_10.html


This topic has come up before in this forum ( http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278263&page=17 ) and people have also tried to say Citadel Journal #10, but in past threads when asked to quote the relevant parts from that Citadel Journal (given the lack of any mention in the Table of Contents) there has been silence.

Ah, fair enough. I just saw it on Lexicanum so I thought I might post it on here. Then again it is Lexicanum (an editable encyclopedia) so some bits of information might not be as reliable as others (no offence, I love Lexicanum).

Iracundus
28-11-2010, 04:55
Ah, fair enough. I just saw it on Lexicanum so I thought I might post it on here. Then again it is Lexicanum (an editable encyclopedia) so some bits of information might not be as reliable as others (no offence, I love Lexicanum).

Lexicanum does not count. Lexicanum is an unreliable 3rd party source that it often freely mixes fan speculation and hearsay in with official sources (often paraphrased or interpreted rather than direct quotes) and doesn't differentiate between them.

The past threads also had people claiming Citadel Journal #10 on the basis of Lexicanum, despite Lexicanum having been caught out before in the past making mistakes. Thus far no person has ever been able to quote the supposed source for this claim.

The Inevitable One
28-11-2010, 05:09
Lexicanum does not count. Lexicanum is an unreliable 3rd party source that it often freely mixes fan speculation and hearsay in with official sources (often paraphrased or interpreted rather than direct quotes) and doesn't differentiate between them.

The past threads also had people claiming Citadel Journal #10 on the basis of Lexicanum, despite Lexicanum having been caught out before in the past making mistakes. Thus far no person has ever been able to quote the supposed source for this claim.

That's why I wrote fair enough and all the rest of whatever I posted. I was not trying to go against what you said, but agree.

Hendarion
28-11-2010, 06:40
Yep, that possession-rumour about Issue #10 is really strong and yet, nobody has seen that in person and there is no indication for that rumour to be true in any kind of way. Lexicanum is probably the biggest spread of this infestation.

webba84
28-11-2010, 07:00
I went ahead and added a comment casting doubt on that paragraph in the Lexicanum but since I don't actually have the document being referred to I'm not comfortable removing the offending material completely. Is there anyone who does actually have a copy of that journal who could clarify for us?

Hendarion
28-11-2010, 07:02
I doubt it. That discussion had been up so often and the only things we could find had been the table of content for #10 which doesn't include anything about Eldar Harlequins.

webba84
28-11-2010, 07:09
Ah well, worth asking anyway.

The Inevitable One
28-11-2010, 07:13
I could not find anything in the table of contents for Citadel Issue #10 either.

Anyways, another question:

How is it that the Eldar awoke Slaanesh and have a bond between them, yet Humans (I think) awoke Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle yet have no bond at all?

Iracundus
28-11-2010, 07:19
I could not find anything in the table of contents for Citadel Issue #10 either.

Anyways, another question:

How is it that the Eldar awoke Slaanesh and have a bond between them, yet Humans (I think) awoke Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle yet have no bond at all?

What makes you think there isn't one? Human souls aren't conscious and disperse after death. Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle certainly are described as feeding almost exclusively off of humans which are one of the most numerous races in the galaxy and also suitably vulnerable. The odd non-human followers like the Ork Stormboyz of Khorne or the Nurgle corrupted Orks depicted in the WH Codex are the exceptions, not the rule.

webba84
28-11-2010, 07:25
Good point, I suppose it's not as devastating for humanity as it is for the Eldar because Humans don't remain distinct and self aware entities after death.

carlisimo
28-11-2010, 08:29
How is it that the Eldar awoke Slaanesh and have a bond between them, yet Humans (I think) awoke Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle yet have no bond at all?

The other three Chaos gods were already around... I wouldn't say that humans awoke them.

As for the Eldar gods being dead, don't forget that story in the Daemon codex about Isha being held prisoner by Nurgle (told on a craftworld or two, or something like that). Point is, the Chaos gods (particularly Slaanesh) bested them, whether it meant death or not.

Harlequins... the vast majority of Eldar just probably don't know how to become harlequins. And most wouldn't want to - it's a totally different culture and religion. The craftworld Eldar think of the harlequins with a mixture of awe and fear. Nor is all that certain that the Laughing God will beat Slaanesh to your soul.

Iuris
28-11-2010, 08:46
Lexicanum (in)accuracy aside, the recent Eldar data seems to have introduced a slightly different view of the Eldar mindset and culture.

Essentially, the Exodites and the Craftworld eldar had to give up a great deal to be able to escape the lure of chaos - something not every one eldar is willing to give up - not just the dark eldar, also the rangers are among those who find the sacrifice hard going.

It has long been known that an Eldar is naturally inclined to excessive focus. We could say the easily get addicted to any activity. Try to think of it similar to how a human gets "into" an online game. Everything focuses on that single activity. So, this urge must be controlled.

The Exodites were the first to leave the empire. Essentially, they are the Eldar Amish - consciously rejecting technology to keep temptation away. Their lives are rustic, filled with what, to an eldar, is hard physical work. This is what wards them against chaos - the world spirits are only a repository. To them, that's life. To other Eldar, it's like joining the amish.

The craftworlders are different. They left later and instead of adopting a simpler way of life countered life with what is essentially a monastic way of life. Instead of denying the desire for focus, they channel it into ritual. That's extremely restrictive, of course, and even the craftworld born rangers can't take it. To other Eldar it's even harder to take. Also note that the final fate of having your soul imprisoned in a soulstone is not really nice - to an Eldar, it's like being imprisoned alive, denied all sensation. It's like asking a human if he'd like to have his brain stuffed in a jar. And not with the pleasure centers activated.

The Dark eldar... well, they start with the baseline that their way of life is the way to live, and certainly aren't willing to let go of the luxuries. Not that most actually have a choice - remember, Kabals are now the elite of the society, with lots of rank and file under them.

The Harlequins have never been properly explained, so we have nothing definitive. Personally, I feel that the "laughing god saves soul" is not to be taken litterally, but instead to mean that they are loremasters so very indoctrinated that they can consciously restrain themselves by knowing the consequences of their failure to do so. The Solitaire is different - due to his role, he HAS to open his mind, and that's why it's iffy whether he can be saved or not.

jim5195
28-11-2010, 11:24
I always thought that the death of the eldar gods was less of a literal thing then is being made out here. They were after all the gods of the eldar empire, and died when it died.

In my minds eye the death of Kurnous for example, was more of a case of the hunting element of eldar society moving almost totally away from the noble ideal of the hunter venerating its prey and valuing the challenge and skill of a kill, to the ruthless exploitation and victimisation of those weaker than yourself in pursuit of some kind of hedonistic kick.

That kind of reasoning can be applied to all of the old eldar gods, who eventually devolved into Slaanesh. The birth of Slaneesh to my mind was just the tipping point at which society became irredeemably debased.

Obviously this is just my interpretation, I have no page references or quotes to back it up, but I think its borne out pretty well by the fact that the CWE (until recently the only really fleshed out eldar) have two surviving gods, and of necessity live in a society defined by war and trickery.

When you're dealing with entities defined wholly by belief and emotion, it just seems silly to me that there would be ANY element of "this warp whirlpool got to big for this other one and sucked it in" which this thread seems to alude to quite a bit.

Kage2020
28-11-2010, 13:00
...and even the craftworld born rangers can't take it. To other Eldar it's even harder to take.
To me, this is one of the "crying shames" of the materials on the Eldar. It used to be that they were fleeing the restrictions of Eldar society with some latitude in interpreting that to be something other than just the Path. Increasingly it seems they're diluting the 'fluff' down so that Eldar is and are the Path, which while it is great in terms of showing the importance of the Path it's not so great for a more interesting, dynamic culture. :D

Of course, the counter-argument there is questioning whether Eldar society should be dynamic!

With that said, unlike some of the concepts of the Inquisition and the Adeptus Mechanicus, the material doesn't seem to have changed sufficiently to warrant significant juggling of my interpretation. So from a purely selfish point of view, I'm good. :D

Kage

LordLucan
28-11-2010, 14:18
I was reading various things related to the Eldar and I had a few questions:

1) Who where the Eldar created by? Was it Isha, Khaine, etc. or was it the Old Ones? This confused me because it is said that the Old Ones created the Eldar, yet the Eldar Gods, Isha and Kurnous, are the parents of the Eldar. And the Old Ones can't be the Eldar Gods for the Eldar Gods were warp entities.


All of the above potentially. The Old Ones were not just one race, and they are a mysterious and complex bunch. The Eldar gods are hinted to be weapons created by the eldar to fight the war in heaven, and the eldar believe they are their creator gods, and so the eldar gods believed it too. However, potentially the Old Ones are also the eldar gods, because other races in the galaxy share the exact same gods in many cases.

And just because the eldar gods are warp entities does not preclude that the old ones can't be them. Why can't the old ones have ascended to warp entity status? Humans can become dameon rpinces through taking on lots of warp energy via a patron.

What if the old ones began to associate themselves with the gods, and became them somehow?


2) How is it that most of the Eldar Gods were killed if they are Warp Entities much like the Chaos Gods, who are immortal?

The lesser warp gods were absorbed by the chaos gods, because they overlap with them in a way. Khaine and Isha were the only ones who were not taken by slannesh, because other chaos gods fought slannesh for them (i.e., their essenses overlapped with another chaos power's sphere of influence or soemthing)


3) What happens when the Eldar and their cousins, the Dark Eldar, come across each other? I know each of them thinks that they are going the right way, but do they flat out attack each other or do they kind of give them the finger and be off on whatever they were doing before?

Sometimes they attack, sometimes they collaborate.


4) If Eldar Harlequins can free themselves from the soul sucking Slaaneth, why doesn't every Eldar try to become one?

How would any eldar other than the harlequins know that? In-universe, what proof do they have? The harlequins claim they are immune, but how could they prove it? Also, do the harlequins even explain their methods tot he other eldar? I'm not sure they do.

Aanndd...start![/QUOTE]

Hendarion
28-11-2010, 16:59
Essentially, they are the Eldar Amish - consciously rejecting technology to keep temptation away. Their lives are rustic, filled with what, to an eldar, is hard physical work.
Not really. They do use the same high-level-tech as all other Eldar, that can be seen on their weapons and especially Knights. But still, they *do* work at all in a dangerous environment.


The lesser warp gods were absorbed by the chaos gods, because they overlap with them in a way. Khaine and Isha were the only ones who were not taken by slannesh, because other chaos gods fought slannesh for them (i.e., their essenses overlapped with another chaos power's sphere of influence or soemthing)
That is a widely spread interpretation or fanfiction of what has happened. Nowhere (as far as I know) this is stated to be the case. And I really can not imagine how Vaul, Asuryan or Kurnous overlap with Slaanesh. Seriously, I just can't find any aspect of them to be even close to Slaanesh either. If they would be, how come Eldar-souls didn't merge with them in the first place instead of creating Slaanesh?
Btw... how did Eldar-souls merge anyway, as they got reborn before Slaanesh, didn't they? (I'm to lazy to dig my books though about the rebirth-thing)

Kage2020
28-11-2010, 22:58
Not really. They do use the same high-level-tech as all other Eldar, that can be seen on their weapons and especially Knights. But still, they *do* work at all in a dangerous environment.
Well, the Exodites do consider the Craftworld Eldar to be dangerously close to that of the pre-Fall Eldar, and this is commonly perceived as being a function of their more technologically-immersed society. Whether this perception is th exclusive reason is up for grabs.


That is a widely spread interpretation or fanfiction of what has happened. Nowhere (as far as I know) this is stated to be the case.
The energy of various gods are described as being "captured," e.g. Nurgle and Isha. Even in WD127 this is referenced:


When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne--being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way. Then Khorne and Slaanesh clashed headlong, the Blood God fighting to recover the portion of hs power that had been robbed from him, Slaanesh driven by his uncontrollable hunger to consume everything in his path.
So one can certainly see the source of misunderstanding, if misunderstanding it is.

Kage

Hendarion
29-11-2010, 05:21
I can see Isha and Khaine to have parts with Nurgle or Khorne, but I can't see Asuryan, Vaul or Kurnous to overlap with any other. Misunderstanding or not, people should have an argument for the things they claim. But I don't see any for these 3 gods. Further, if that was the only reason why Slaanesh devoured the Eldar Gods and why Isha (maybe) is captured by Nurgle, then I wonder how Cegorach got away from Tzeentch... And before another debate about Cegorach is opened, he is described to be alive and got away by an omnipotent story teller.

Inquisitor Engel
29-11-2010, 05:37
1) Who where the Eldar created by? Was it Isha, Khaine, etc. or was it the Old Ones? This confused me because it is said that the Old Ones created the Eldar, yet the Eldar Gods, Isha and Kurnous, are the parents of the Eldar. And the Old Ones can't be the Eldar Gods for the Eldar Gods were warp entities.


There's a really, really easy way to reconcile the differences here:

The Old Ones ARE the Eldar Gods.

It's been my belief for some time that the proto-Eldar perhaps worshiped some nameless entities or even the ones we know today, with poor focus. When the Old Ones come along, with their MASSIVE warp presence, encourage the development of these nascent warp entities as potential weapons. Some psychically latch onto their new wards' nascent warp entities for study, assuming the roles of these 'fictional' beings to better manipulate Eldar society and therefore genetics. (Cortez and Quetzalcoatl style)

Over time, the Old Ones acquired the ability to ascend. Many deeply involved in the Eldar uplift project, their work done but their attachments to their creations permanent and personal, leave behind their mortal shell completely and personify themselves not only in the warp as an entity capable of being worshipped and absorbing/dealing out souls, but in the real world.

*dusts off hands*

Explains many, many idiosyncrasies in the older Eldar myths where the gods are presented as somewhat special warp entities, the WD "War in Heaven" Eldar myths (which are presented in 3rd-person omnipotent narrator style) and the older material, as well as the stuff in the Chaos Codex and even Liber Chaotica.

Hendarion
29-11-2010, 06:08
That doesn't go too well along though with the fact that Eldanesh and Ulthanash had been able to summon the Gods to battle, does it?

I think Kane had been the one suggesting that actually the Eldar Gods had been created as weapons against the Ygnir by the Old Ones and the Eldar Gods (exactly as the myth says) had then created the Eldar which in return called these weapons to battle (if not, can someone enlighten me who did?). That is very much canon actually if you think of the fact that the Old Ones are said to have created psychic beings to fight the C'tan. Yea, Eldar are psychic, but their Gods are too and both can actually be called "Eldar". And if I know something, then it is that Eldar Myth nearly always can be taken pretty much as a fact of what really had happened.

Idaan
29-11-2010, 09:26
That's not just Kage's opinion, that's the story as presented in "Liber Chaotica - Slaanesh".

Iracundus
29-11-2010, 11:28
I went ahead and added a comment casting doubt on that paragraph in the Lexicanum but since I don't actually have the document being referred to I'm not comfortable removing the offending material completely. Is there anyone who does actually have a copy of that journal who could clarify for us?

It looks like someone has reversed that comment and is still trying to portray the rumor/misinformation as the truth and still citing Citadel Journal 10, despite still no direct quote or any hint of any Harlequin content in that Journal.

Hendarion
29-11-2010, 11:54
That's not just Kage's opinion, that's the story as presented in "Liber Chaotica - Slaanesh".
Well, of course the claim is based on something, but the only one stating "Eldar Gods = weapons" is Kane if I remember correctly.
Anway, the point isn't who made it, but that it does exist. ;)

Kage2020
29-11-2010, 14:24
Is this Kane person the same character that showed up in the abysmal horror film? If so, coooolll... :P


I can see Isha and Khaine to have parts with Nurgle or Khorne, but I can't see Asuryan, Vaul or Kurnous to overlap with any other.
Hmmn... Not wanting to appear argumentative, but one can certainly draw out elements of each of those deities that could be associated with the "Big Four," though I hasten to add that it would be speculation at best. Off the top of my head, and in all haste since I should be writing a report:

Vaul. Technology, knowledge, change. Very Promethean, ergo Tzeentch.
Kurnuous. The hunt; killing; blood. Ergo, Khorne. That and it begins with a "K" :shifty: (I'm joking about the "K" thing!)
Asuryan. Errrrrr... Tzeentch, again?

Tongue-in-cheekery aside, it can be done to varying degrees of success. It just depends on the size of your shoe horn and whether that shoe horn has the GW stamp on it or not. (That is, canon is official and everything else is speculation.)


Misunderstanding or not, people should have an argument for the things they claim.
One imagines that there is an ultimate argument or justification behind many of the fan speculations and interpretations, though they might not always be argued from "first principles," as it were.


Further, if that was the only reason why Slaanesh devoured the Eldar Gods and why Isha (maybe) is captured by Nurgle, then I wonder how Cegorach got away from Tzeentch...
Everyone loves the underdog; the tricky rogue. (Rogue! Not Rouge! ;))


And before another debate about Cegorach is opened, he is described to be alive and got away by an omnipotent story teller.
The idea of an omnipotent storyteller would seem to be another debate. I like to imagine that there is no such thing as an "omnipotent storyteller" when it comes to the 40k universe if for no other reason than taken in that context the materials currently being produced can be taken as a form of genius rather than... errr, something else.


There's a really, really easy way to reconcile the differences here:

The Old Ones ARE the Eldar Gods.
And the fun thing about the 40k universe is that there is a really, really easy way to reconcile the differences:

The Old Ones ARE NOT the Eldar Gods.

Kinda. It just depends on where you're coming from. I see the Old Ones as creating the circumstances for the ultimate genesis of the Eldar Gods but also being separate to them. Of course, with that said, if I had to bet on what the GW stance would be I would lay the chips down on the part of the table that said "Old Ones=Eldar Gods." I just don't see that as being the best option for me.


Over time, the Old Ones acquired the ability to ascend. Many deeply involved in the Eldar uplift project, their work done but their attachments to their creations permanent and personal, leave behind their mortal shell completely and personify themselves not only in the warp as an entity capable of being worshipped and absorbing/dealing out souls, but in the real world.
I'm sure that I've mentioned this before, but you really must (ha! must = if you want/get the chance/have the time!) read Alan F. Alford's Gods of the New Millennium. Given your theories (facts?) about the Old Ones, it really is going to be right up your alley.


That doesn't go too well along though with the fact that Eldanesh and Ulthanash had been able to summon the Gods to battle, does it?
Surely that depends on how you interpret that information? For example, I view the mythology as just that: myth. There may be (and for me is) a kernel of truth, but that truth is shaded by a large period of time (huge if you believe the official timeline) and multiple layers of storytellers and cultural meaning. Thus, for me, the "summoning" of an Eldar god was more akin to the summoning of Loa than the idea that you chant/whatever and--poof!--there's a god in front of you waiting to get busy with your enemies.


I think Kane had been the one suggesting that actually the Eldar Gods had been created as weapons against the Ygnir by the Old Ones and the Eldar Gods (exactly as the myth says) had then created the Eldar which in return called these weapons to battle (if not, can someone enlighten me who did?). That is very much canon actually if you think of the fact that the Old Ones are said to have created psychic beings to fight the C'tan.
I think that's more along Engel's lines, but this early in the morning (*stares*) it's hard to tell. Suffice to say that for me the Old Ones are the original gods... Kinda. No, not really. Sorta.

Confused? So is everyone else. *grin*

For me, though, the Old Ones come to the Eldar and "uplift them." They become the de facto deities associated with specific realms of activities. The only difference between this and what--if you will forgive me--I would label as "Engel's approach" is that it ends there for me. The Old Ones depart and leave the Eldar (i.e. Asuryan sunders the Eldar from heaven), their last gift being the tools to create the Aethyr Gods (i.e. harking to the Tears of Isha).


And if I know something, then it is that Eldar Myth nearly always can be taken pretty much as a fact of what really had happened.
Which, for me, is why the basic premise of the "stone tablet" in Xenology pretty much sucked--speculation presented as fact, then taken as fact regardless of the process. YMMV, of course, since the information happens to agree with lots of other fan speculation.


Well, of course the claim is based on something, but the only one stating "Eldar Gods = weapons" is Kane if I remember correctly.
I believe that's actually part of the pieces on Eldar mythology. Divorced as I am from my reference materials at the moment, though, I only have a vague recollection of the sentence in question being present in those materials.

Kage

Hendarion
29-11-2010, 14:30
I didn't want to say you made fan-fiction about it, if you understood it that way. I more meant: There is some fluff and the guy (and I really might be wrong here as you already stated) who brought it to to me was you. If that is wrong, take it as a compliment, since I really appreciate referencing of existing fluff a lot.

Kage2020
29-11-2010, 14:36
No worries. I've got a lot of fan-speculation going around in my head in the process of what I call "Reverse Revisionism," or the perverse approach that I take the older materials as more "true" than the younger materials. Of course, to really throw a spanner in the works I take what I consider to the really cool materials (Rule of Cool... rules!) of the most recent stuff and liberally throw them together with the older stuff. For example, I combine Abnett's and Thorpe's (published) views of the Inquisition into one whole.

Told you: perverse. ;)

Again, though, the material referencing the Eldar "Aethyr Gods" as weapons derives from the Eldar Mythological Cycles. I'm sure that someone could find it and cite it before I get home and to my own materials... :D

Kage

Shnerg
29-11-2010, 14:36
3) What happens when the Eldar and their cousins, the Dark Eldar, come across each other? I know each of them thinks that they are going the right way, but do they flat out attack each other or do they kind of give them the finger and be off on whatever they were doing before?

Basically, GW invent a new Imperium army to kill them.

Lars Porsenna
29-11-2010, 17:02
One thing I always wondered about is how much of an exchange goes on between the 3 major branches of Eldar-dom? We already know there is contact between the Craftworlders and the Exodites (IIRC Gav's book Path of the Warrior has a bit of this in it), but how much contact is between the CWE and the Dark Eldar? I think it might be possible for a CWE to get sick of the Path system, declare that "Sex, Drugs & Rock'n'Roll" are the way to go and "fall" to the Dark Eldar. And perhaps similarly a DE decides that sensual debauchery is an empty life, and decides to go Space Elf Amish, or go to a Craftworld. The post above suggesting DE coming to the aid of Iyanden suggests to me that there is a sense of kinship, if not contact between the branches.

Note I don't have the DE codex (yet) so my thoughts might still be invalidated...

Damon.

Shamana
29-11-2010, 18:45
I think there are examples of both. IIRC the Eldar codex implies that outcasts who can't keep to a path can end up in Comorragh (don't quote me on that), and outcasts and corsairs run the gamut of near/full allegiance to the craftworld to practically leading dark eldar bands - just think of Yriel and Sliscus. Dark Eldar joining the craftworlders may be harder - in general, someone who's lived the wild life for centuries may find the path system incredibly oppressive, not to mention becoming accepted - but it can happen. Didn't Path of the Warrior have such a character - someone who left Comorragh and joined the Scorpion aspect shrine?

There is also the exchange that happens in the Harlequin bands - the Laughing god doesn't care if you were a former pit warrior of Commoragh, dragon-herder on a maiden world, or master of the art of flower arrangement.

Idaan
29-11-2010, 20:19
Well, of course the claim is based on something, but the only one stating "Eldar Gods = weapons" is Kane if I remember correctly.
Anway, the point isn't who made it, but that it does exist. ;)
They're explicitly stated to be weapons:

Without the wisdom and might of the First Ones to bind them, I saw the Elder's warp beings evolve from sentient weapons into living gods - the first true gods of the Immaterium.Not that I'm arguing, just providing the source if you're interested.


3) What happens when the Eldar and their cousins, the Dark Eldar, come across each other? I know each of them thinks that they are going the right way, but do they flat out attack each other or do they kind of give them the finger and be off on whatever they were doing before

Varies greatly. There are examples of DE aiding the Craftworlders on their own (codex has a Kabal come to aid of a Iyanden warhost surrounded by Orks because they found Wraithguard amusing) or directed by the Harlequins (WD battle report of Eldar vs Chaos Daemons), Outcasts drifting into Commorragh out of boredom, Eldar sending the prisoners they want tortured to Haemonculi ("Devastation of Assyri" short story), both sides having regular diplomatic relations (Ural Asur and the Cloaked One during Medusa V campaign), Eldar taking care of wounded DE prisoners of war (Path of the Warrior - it is only the notion of him joining Scorpion Shrine that outrages them) while on the other hand the DE value the trophies made of Craftworlders greatly and Scorpions despise the Incubi. You can make a case of almost any kind of relations - it depends on circumstance and who exactly is interacting.

Eumerin
29-11-2010, 22:20
Didn't Path of the Warrior have such a character - someone who left Comorragh and joined the Scorpion aspect shrine?

Yes, it did. And there's a brief conversation that indicates the individual's "conversion" won't be complete until he's finally able to walk away from the Scorpion aspect - preferably into a non-combatant path.


The Eldar groups appear to be (in order of most strict to least strict) -

Exodites
Craftworlds - with Rangers acting as loyalists who can't handle the rules
Corsairs - who tend to range from loosely affiliated with a craftworld to one step short of full on Dark Eldar-ness
Dark Eldar
Chaos Eldar


And then you've got Harlequins off doing their own thing somewhere else - possibly with Solitaires blending in with the rest of the Eldar groups (if the very old Solitaire fluff is still good).

Iracundus
29-11-2010, 23:50
Yes, it did. And there's a brief conversation that indicates the individual's "conversion" won't be complete until he's finally able to walk away from the Scorpion aspect - preferably into a non-combatant path.

I hope this character is explored a bit more in the following books, and I hope he is genuinely wanting to go the Craftworld way (as opposed to being revealed as an evil moustache twirling double agent).

I do wonder what he thinks about training and learning in the Scorpion way, considering he would have been more highly skilled and agile as an Incubus with more powerful weapons. In a way he is training in a way that will make him weaker martially compared to before, though I suppose spiritually he will be better off.



The Eldar groups appear to be (in order of most strict to least strict) -

Exodites
Craftworlds - with Rangers acting as loyalists who can't handle the rules
Corsairs - who tend to range from loosely affiliated with a craftworld to one step short of full on Dark Eldar-ness
Dark Eldar
Chaos Eldar


I'd put Exodites as less strict or about equal to Craftworlds, since Exodites don't have the Path.

Hendarion
30-11-2010, 05:07
I'd also see Exodiths a little less strict than Craftworlders. Yea, they do taim thelseves, but with work and focus to a hard life. But I think Craftworlders mental restrictions is more strict. Exodiths have a physically harder life than CWE, but CWE have a mentally more strict one.

chromedog
30-11-2010, 05:34
I do wonder what he thinks about training and learning in the Scorpion way, considering he would have been more highly skilled and agile as an Incubus with more powerful weapons. In a way he is training in a way that will make him weaker martially compared to before, though I suppose spiritually he will be better off.


How is learning another way to fight 'weakening' him?
He is furthering his knowledge of the arts of death.

Maybe he's just doing the "Scorpion like me" deal.

You only really know what the other person's viewpoint is if you can actually live as they do.

And knowing how they live gives you an insight into how they can die.

Iracundus
30-11-2010, 05:59
How is learning another way to fight 'weakening' him?
He is furthering his knowledge of the arts of death.

Maybe he's just doing the "Scorpion like me" deal.

You only really know what the other person's viewpoint is if you can actually live as they do.

And knowing how they live gives you an insight into how they can die.

He will end up as a Striking Scorpion with WS 4 whereas before he was an Incubus with WS 5.

Shamana
30-11-2010, 06:25
Unless there's a new Eldar codex one of these years... Incubi used to be WS4 for a long time, remember?

Eumerin
30-11-2010, 07:18
I hope this character is explored a bit more in the following books, and I hope he is genuinely wanting to go the Craftworld way (as opposed to being revealed as an evil moustache twirling double agent).

While there's little said about him, there's enough provided that it's pretty much certain that he's legitimate. If Gav Thorpe has the character turn out to be a spy then he's going to have a whole lot of protesting on his hands.

No idea if he'll turn up in the follow-up novels, though. 'Path of the Warrior' is Scorpion-focused, for obvious reasons - which is why there's even a minimal rationale for the character to turn up.

Toldavf
30-11-2010, 09:38
The old ones needed the Eldar for their war against the c'tan. The Eldar where already experimenting with the warp when the old ones returned to recruit them. The old ones seeing potential for a new weapon to use against their enemies encouraged the Eldar to experiment further they reached deeper into the warp and the Eldar gods where created.

Its all in the liber chaotica it even say that 100 widow maker swords where forged but that one was stolen and hidden far away :P

Nazguire
30-11-2010, 09:48
How is learning another way to fight 'weakening' him?
He is furthering his knowledge of the arts of death.

Maybe he's just doing the "Scorpion like me" deal.

You only really know what the other person's viewpoint is if you can actually live as they do.

And knowing how they live gives you an insight into how they can die.

Hopefully we don't see the oh so predictable betrayal at the critical moment by this character just because of this. It's too cliched.

Iracundus
30-11-2010, 11:04
While there's little said about him, there's enough provided that it's pretty much certain that he's legitimate. If Gav Thorpe has the character turn out to be a spy then he's going to have a whole lot of protesting on his hands.


Actually we don't know much of anything as he doesn't speak. We only have memories from the Exarch pool of seeing this character first as an Incubus that gets his helmet faceplate shattered, then later another memory of him in robes being spiritually purified/aligned and him then being accepted as a Scorpion (since apparently Exarchs are not allowed to refuse applicants).

We don't know anything of his motivations or inner thoughts, whether he really tired of the Dark Eldar lifestyle or did so only out of self preservation since he was defeated.

He may not be a "spy" per se in the sense of being a conscious spy. I just hope he doesn't end up as a character that winds up falling back into the old Dark Eldar ways and pulling a sudden betrayal, simply because tales of redemption are rare enough already in 40K and because I think that if a Craftworld Eldar can succumb to dark urges and join the Dark Eldar then the reverse should hold true so that the Dark Eldar don't have a clear advantage over the Craftworld Eldar.

Kage2020
30-11-2010, 11:45
And knowing how they live gives you an insight into how they can die.
And just as importantly vice versa! Admittedly, I'm not sure that GW's treatment with Eldar funerary practices is going to delve overtly deeply into the Eldar psyche and metaphysical paradigm. ;)

On the other hand, I wonder if the whole DE and CE thing is a doff of the hat to what used to be "Craftworld EldarOnline," where they also wangled together the different races of Eldar...

Kage

Eumerin
30-11-2010, 19:09
Actually we don't know much of anything as he doesn't speak. We only have memories from the Exarch pool of seeing this character first as an Incubus that gets his helmet faceplate shattered, then later another memory of him in robes being spiritually purified/aligned and him then being accepted as a Scorpion (since apparently Exarchs are not allowed to refuse applicants).

We don't know anything of his motivations or inner thoughts, whether he really tired of the Dark Eldar lifestyle or did so only out of self preservation since he was defeated.

Exarchs are allowed to refuse applicants. The female scorpion in the squad at one point illustrates the difference between their own exarch and another exarch using this particular point to back up her comments.

It is pretty clear that the guy in question isn't a bloodthirsty killer at this point, which seems to indicate that he has indeed changed at some level. The transition isn't complete, however, which is why Karandras tells him that he needs to ultimately leave the aspect in order to show that the Path system works.

Also, the fact that the individual mentioned in the spoiler appears to trust the guy seems to me like a point in the former incubus's favor.

Iracundus
30-11-2010, 20:51
Exarchs are allowed to refuse applicants. The female scorpion in the squad at one point illustrates the difference between their own exarch and another exarch using this particular point to back up her comments.


I think you confuse the two similar but still different points. The 2 Exarchs are contrasted in that 1 has more students and deliberately teaches en masse while the other is more individual in his teaching. However, this is not equivalent to saying they can refuse, merely that they have different styles and different class sizes. It is explicitly made clear in the novel during the memories that Exarchs are bound by a covenant among themselves that they may not refuse teaching to those that request it. Perhaps this may be constrained by whether or not they have space in their class, but assuming there is there seems to be no choice involved.

Eumerin
30-11-2010, 21:26
I think you confuse the two similar but still different points. The 2 Exarchs are contrasted in that 1 has more students and deliberately teaches en masse while the other is more individual in his teaching. However, this is not equivalent to saying they can refuse, merely that they have different styles and different class sizes. It is explicitly made clear in the novel during the memories that Exarchs are bound by a covenant among themselves that they may not refuse teaching to those that request it. Perhaps this may be constrained by whether or not they have space in their class, but assuming there is there seems to be no choice involved.

No, there's one item that you left out. The Exarch who is more individual in his focus will refuse new members for his squad under certain conditions. Unfortunately I have to double-check my copy of the book for the details, but it causes the protagonist to note that if things had been slightly different then he might not have been accepted at the shrine.

Charlie Scene
30-11-2010, 22:19
When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne--being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way. Then Khorne and Slaanesh clashed headlong, the Blood God fighting to recover the portion of hs power that had been robbed from him, Slaanesh driven by his uncontrollable hunger to consume everything in his path.

So, if I'm not reading that wrong; does that mean that the only reason Khaine survived, is because he was Khornes property?..

That makes him even more lackluster of a "god". Perhaps there's a reason everyone and their brother keeps feeding his avatars falcon punches.

Iracundus
01-12-2010, 06:00
No, there's one item that you left out. The Exarch who is more individual in his focus will refuse new members for his squad under certain conditions. Unfortunately I have to double-check my copy of the book for the details, but it causes the protagonist to note that if things had been slightly different then he might not have been accepted at the shrine.

Quote where it says he would refuse because the closest thing to that is simply that Kenainath would prefer if he had no students. However that is not the same as being allowed to refuse. Kenainath says as much about the Dark Eldar seeking admission:



'He must be accepted, pupils are not turned away, it is not a choice.' p. 296, Path of the Warrior

Hendarion
01-12-2010, 07:59
So, if I'm not reading that wrong; does that mean that the only reason Khaine survived, is because he was Khornes property?..

That makes him even more lackluster of a "god". Perhaps there's a reason everyone and their brother keeps feeding his avatars falcon punches.

You are reading it wrong. Khorne went mad after he realized that Slaanesh had robbed him. But that was too late, Khaine had been splintered and thrown to the materium already:

the Blood God fighting to recover the portion of hs power that had been robbed from him
Note that Khaine was part of Khorne, but not all parts of Khaine had been parts of Khorne! Therefore it is not possible to decide how powerful Khaine had been and if he had been much less powerful than Khorne or Slaanesh either. So I don't see that as a reason to receive falcon-punches. If he was clearly only a minor part of Khorne and nothing else, one could call him a minor deity and falcon-punches would be more logical (more than for Greater Demons at least). That is not what the fluff says at all.

Poseidal
01-12-2010, 08:22
For the Khaine/Khorne stuff, think about it like this:

If they were figures, they would never interact. Khaine would be made of Khorne (or vice versa); the 'identity' of the entities that were absorbed by Slaanesh were because that's where the Eldar psyche was. Slaanesh is a more broad statement.

Or if Khaine was Zeus, Khorne would be mount Olympus. I can't think of a good analogy though, as it's very hard to explain.

Hellebore
01-12-2010, 10:32
Multiple personality disorder. One brain, many personas. The chaos gods are singular warp conglomerations, but multiple personas as every race emotes in a similar but distinct way.

Hellebore

Kage2020
01-12-2010, 13:44
You are reading it wrong. Khorne went mad after he realized that Slaanesh had robbed him.
You might be getting overwrought with semantics here. Ultimately the reference to theft indicates that at least Khorne felt that Khaine belonged to him, thus a form of property or chattel. Whether this represents the true metaphysical relationships between the two entities is up for grabs, and the 'fluff' certainly doesn't seem to address this issue as indicated by the widely repeating threads asking whether Khaine was a part of Khorne or a separate entity. (The answer seems to be both, but it depends on which of the entities you ask.)

40k metaphysics doesn't make the largest amount of sense, with the obvious argument that it is not meant to do so...

Of course, with that said the fans try and make it so, so kudos to them!

Kage

Iuris
01-12-2010, 13:54
The big four consider all of the warp theirs, no arguments allowed. It's like asking China who Taiwan belongs to. Or Serbians about Kosovo.

This also allows some explanation for some parts of Horus Heresy. There's no need to wonder if the emperor pacted with the warp to make the primarchs if the warp powers consider anything taken from the warp at all as theirs.

Hendarion
01-12-2010, 15:07
You might be getting overwrought with semantics here.
Or you are interpreting more than I am saying ;)


Ultimately the reference to theft indicates that at least Khorne felt that Khaine belonged to him
And that is all that matters to me. Whatever that means is not of my interest.


thus a form of property or chattel.
Not interesting for my point. The point had been to make a statement about the used time-form which is past tense. The theft had already happened when Khorne went mad. That's all.

PS:
How come it is really hard for me to understand what you are always saying? It's really a hard knock to understand, probably too complex for a non-native like me...

Kage2020
01-12-2010, 16:30
How come it is really hard for me to understand what you are always saying? It's really a hard knock to understand, probably too complex for a non-native like me...
If it helps there are times when I can only barely get the gist of what you're saying, or at least sufficiently to be able to safely interpret it without further clarification. Kudos to you, though, since I barely speak let alone write anything other than English and perhaps even bad English at that.

In this case we're roughly saying the same thing, as far as I can make out, but I'm just disagreeing with your suggestion that Charlie Scene had read the text incorrectly and suggested an interpretation that indicated that--he merely expressed much the same in a different manner.

It's all good, though.

Kage

Hendarion
01-12-2010, 16:52
Well, he said that Khaine only survived because he was the property of Khorne. But when Khorne realised that Khaine got "stolen" by Slaanesh, Khaine was already crashed to fragments.
So no matter if Khaine was property of Khorne or not, Khaine was already "dead" when Khorne noticed about it and Khorne could no longer protect or fight for him, but still he was pissed up and clashed onto Slaanesh.
That's why I was pointing out the past-tense in the fluff.

Kage2020
01-12-2010, 19:03
Well, he said that Khaine only survived because he was the property of Khorne. But when Khorne realised that Khaine got "stolen" by Slaanesh, Khaine was already crashed to fragments.
The pedant in me recognises that I'm away from my reference materials once again, but from my recollection it is only after Khorne gets involved in the fray that Khaine escapes to shatter against the matterium. Indeed, it is only because of Khorne's involvement that Khaine can "escape the clutches" (whips, chains, etc.) of Slaanesh. Thus, the statement would be correct from a certain point of view. :D

Of course, that's just myth... :D

Kage

Israfael
01-12-2010, 21:45
The pedant in me recognises that I'm away from my reference materials once again, but from my recollection it is only after Khorne gets involved in the fray that Khaine escapes to shatter against the matterium. Indeed, it is only because of Khorne's involvement that Khaine can "escape the clutches" (whips, chains, etc.) of Slaanesh. Thus, the statement would be correct from a certain point of view. :D

See, that's how I recall it as well - that they fought over him, and he shattered during their struggle. Very similar to children breaking the toy they're fighting over. Not to say that I couldn't be completely wrong. :D

Hendarion
02-12-2010, 07:14
Well, the quote is on the previous side and that is the only thing I have commented on.

MagosHereticus
02-12-2010, 07:54
according to the liber chaotica slaanesh, khorne fought slaanesh right up until the moment of the fall, trying to crush the life out of the dark prince, and it was khorne himselk who was shattered, making him lose the metal body that he had been encased in since his war with kaelis ra, khorne then sulks at his defeat

eldargal
02-12-2010, 08:11
How would that work, Slaanesh didn't exist before the Fall, not as a sentient, coherent warp entity anyway.

Hendarion
02-12-2010, 08:24
according to the liber chaotica slaanesh, khorne fought slaanesh right up until the moment of the fall, trying to crush the life out of the dark prince, and it was khorne himselk who was shattered, making him lose the metal body that he had been encased in since his war with kaelis ra, khorne then sulks at his defeat
Khorne never had a metal body and never fought Kaelis Ra. That was Khaine and that is probably why Avatars are molten metal.

MagosHereticus
02-12-2010, 10:34
How would that work, Slaanesh didn't exist before the Fall, not as a sentient, coherent warp entity anyway.

he existed as a nascent embryonic god, struggling to awaken, khorne tried to end him before he even began, and was mocked by tzeentch and nurgle who tried to convince him that slaanesh was inevitable, but though khornes efforts there was just enough time for the craft world eldar to change their ways and escape


Khorne never had a metal body and never fought Kaelis Ra. That was Khaine and that is probably why Avatars are molten metal.

that's a very naive and simplistic perspective of the metaphysics of chaos, khaine is is some way or some part a fragment of khorne, the two are strongly connected, this is not to say that khaine is simply khorne wearing a mask but something more intricate and sophisticated

Hendarion
02-12-2010, 11:00
OK, tell me why you have to bend and change existing fluff just to fit your opinion? The fluff says that Khaine fought Kaelis Ra. Now why saying that Khorne did it? That... is... weird in best case. Khaine and Khorne are after all not the same entity, no matter how their relation had been, they are still not the same. Else Khorne would be dead now exactly like Khaine.
Seriously.

eldargal
02-12-2010, 11:34
Well, that makes sense, though I still think it is a damned stupid piece of fluff.

I think people tend to overstate the 'Khaine is Khorne' thing. He isn't. Khaine is the embodiment of the violent/warlike aspects of the Eldar psyche. This similarity may have made it easier for Khorne to attempt to absorb Khaine, even though he ultimately he failed to do so. This, to me, suggests the relationship was more 'ideological' than 'material'. Khorne wanted Khaine because he was compatible with his own being, not because he was part of his being in any way.



he existed as a nascent embryonic god, struggling to awaken, khorne tried to end him before he even began, and was mocked by tzeentch and nurgle who tried to convince him that slaanesh was inevitable, but though khornes efforts there was just enough time for the craft world eldar to change their ways and escape



that's a very naive and simplistic perspective of the metaphysics of chaos, khaine is is some way or some part a fragment of khorne, the two are strongly connected, this is not to say that khaine is simply khorne wearing a mask but something more intricate and sophisticated

Hellebore
02-12-2010, 11:49
Well the argument is that all 'anger/rage' produced by sentient species is more similar than it is different. Thus although Khaine represents eldar rage/anger etc, it is still within the vortex of rage that exists within the warp.

This is true of Slannesh as well as it has as much of an affect on Humanity and every other alien species as it does the Eldar (sans soul leeching).

The chaos gods are formed from all sentient emotion regardless of species - like attracts like within the warp. It's just that some things are even more alike than others and so form vorticies within vorticies of similar emotive content. Tzeentch may be the name given to that warp vortex/god/entity/gestalt by some of humanity, but it has many names and each name may be a sub vortex within the whole, similar but different whilst also being part of the singular whole that is 'Tzeentch/warp storm of hope'.

As I said in a previous thread, it's like describing the christian holy trinity. If God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are all the same but also distinct at the same time, then Khorne, Khaine, Flootl, Dingbat, Falstaff, Ringtoota and Bigdilly are all also the same and distinct at the same time.

Hellebore

Hendarion
02-12-2010, 11:54
The trinity-thing is something I can agree with. But it still won't mean that Khorne fought Kaelis Ra ;)

eldargal
02-12-2010, 11:56
Yes, I understand the argument, I just do not agree with it.:) The gods may be made of the same stuff (rage, ambition, whatever) but the actual sentient entities that form from them are different.

MagosHereticus
02-12-2010, 12:08
OK, tell me why you have to bend and change existing fluff just to fit your opinion? The fluff says that Khaine fought Kaelis Ra. Now why saying that Khorne did it? That... is... weird in best case. Khaine and Khorne are after all not the same entity, no matter how their relation had been, they are still not the same. Else Khorne would be dead now exactly like Khaine.
Seriously.

bend existing fluff? have you not read the liber chaoticas? and it damn well better be weird, and i would say quite literally that a part of khorne did "die" (if you can call what happened to khaine "death") although it has not been outright stated in 40k the way it has been in fantasy, khorne is has been portrayed as being the meta-conciousness of all the war gods of all the different species, and when khaine was forced from the warp khorne lost that part of himself


The trinity-thing is something I can agree with. But it still won't mean that Khorne fought Kaelis Ra ;)

read the liber chaotica slaanesh, it's not something you get to choose (and if we use the trinity analogy then you are plain wrong anyway)



Well, that makes sense, though I still think it is a damned stupid piece of fluff.

I think people tend to overstate the 'Khaine is Khorne' thing. He isn't. Khaine is the embodiment of the violent/warlike aspects of the Eldar psyche. This similarity may have made it easier for Khorne to attempt to absorb Khaine, even though he ultimately he failed to do so. This, to me, suggests the relationship was more 'ideological' than 'material'. Khorne wanted Khaine because he was compatible with his own being, not because he was part of his being in any way.

see above, khaine was the eldar piece of khorne before he was forced from the warp, and it is by no means as simple as "khaine is khorne", it's not like khorne wears a mask and pretends that he is a different god when interacting with the eldar, khaine is like a state (one of many) that is federated together as the being khorne (distinct yet seperate, and they may not even know of their connection)

gav used to spend lots of time trying to explain the metaphysics of the realm of chaos to people on the forums, i miss his complex philosophical style, the daemons of chaos book feel short of the bar set by gav, i didnt bother getting the chaos daemon codex after that

Idaan
02-12-2010, 15:07
read the liber chaotica slaanesh, it's not something you get to choose (and if we use the trinity analogy then you are plain wrong anyway)While I agree with you in general, you do get to choose. Liber Chaotica has an unreliable narrator and if you read the description of the Fall carefully, it was easy for him to mistake the two or flatten the multidimensional relation they have into "Khaine is Khorne"


And I think I came up with a pretty good distinction between the two (beside their origins) - Khorne is fed by the emotions and souls of his worshippers. The Eldar used to reincarnate, so at least in the time we're most interested in (before his duel with Kaelis Ra), Khaine wasn't made up of souls at all.

Kage2020
02-12-2010, 19:21
Khorne never had a metal body and never fought Kaelis Ra. That was Khaine and that is probably why Avatars are molten metal.
As others have pointed out, beyond questioning the source itself such statements could be explained within the confines of the published 'fluff' as well. For example, one might take the somewhat simplistic idea that Khaine is older than Khorne, and thus contains the seed of anger from the War in Heaven. Thus, Khaine is at the metaphorical heart of Khorne. Since Khaine is said to be contaminated by the necrodermis of Kaelis-Ra* it's really not hard to see why an in-universe author smoking Warhammer's version of crack is going to have some issues.

Even without that latitude, you've always got the idea--as Hellebore has expressed--that it's just a word for a bigger thing. Put another way, same mountain, different faces.

Perhaps in Enuncian you would say, "I'm really Khorned off, I am..." :shifty:


but though khornes efforts there was just enough time for the craft world eldar to change their ways and escape
Well, the Eldar might have had something to do with it as well. :D


Else Khorne would be dead now exactly like Khaine.
To borrow from Miracle Max, Khaine is only mostly dead.


Khorne wanted Khaine because he was compatible with his own being, not because he was part of his being in any way.
It is not possible for a race to give birth to a god, and for the god to enshrine a concept? For example, the worlds of the Imperium had (and have) numerous gods. Along comes the Adeptus Ministorum and says, "Oh, that's cool. Your sun god is actually our Emperor!" It's just a form of metaphysical acculturation when applied to the 40k universe.

Sets and subsets...


see above, khaine was the eldar piece of khorne before he was forced from the warp
Think of Alsace-Lorraine. Was it French or German before the First World War? What about after it?


And I think I came up with a pretty good distinction between the two (beside their origins) - Khorne is fed by the emotions and souls of his worshippers. The Eldar used to reincarnate, so at least in the time we're most interested in (before his duel with Kaelis Ra), Khaine wasn't made up of souls at all.
I imagine that this gets pretty contentious anyway given the soul = psychic energy thing that you've got going on in the past and... well, whatever the heck that they've got going on now.

Kage

MagosHereticus
03-12-2010, 02:43
While I agree with you in general, you do get to choose. Liber Chaotica has an unreliable narrator and if you read the description of the Fall carefully, it was easy for him to mistake the two or flatten the multidimensional relation they have into "Khaine is Khorne"


And I think I came up with a pretty good distinction between the two (beside their origins) - Khorne is fed by the emotions and souls of his worshippers. The Eldar used to reincarnate, so at least in the time we're most interested in (before his duel with Kaelis Ra), Khaine wasn't made up of souls at all.

my outlandish theory is that when the eldar crafted their warp weapons (which became their gods once the lost sight of the big picture) that they made khaine from a piece of khorne, but made it brighter and more focused (a purified chunk of the will to kill), sort of like making a diamond spear tip out of a mountain of coal and most importantly small enough that khaine could be called forth from the warp to lead the eldar in person

as for the unreliable narrator, you could use that line of reasoning but since the narrator actually discusses events, many which can be independently verified as well as the daemon he's being escorted by torturing him with the truth, i dont see it as an issue

Hendarion
03-12-2010, 05:23
my outlandish theory is that when the eldar crafted their warp weapons (which became their gods once the lost sight of the big picture) that they made khaine from a piece of khorne, but made it brighter and more focused (a purified chunk of the will to kill), sort of like making a diamond spear tip out of a mountain of coal and most importantly small enough that khaine could be called forth from the warp to lead the eldar in person
"Outlandish theory" indeed.

Kage2020
03-12-2010, 11:49
small enough that khaine could be called forth from the warp to lead the eldar in person
It fits the 'fluff' except the bit about the humans "creating" Khorne, though that never made a great amount of sense (though fan speculation "solves" the problem, as noted earlier in the thread). It becomes a chicken and an egg scenario, and one that is not overtly helped by the War in Heaven 'fluff'...

And I so hate the idea that the god physically manifested as anything but an Avatar but... Well, different approaches to the universe. It's all good. :D

Well, until someone loses an eye. :shifty:

Kage

LordLucan
03-12-2010, 13:37
I can see Isha and Khaine to have parts with Nurgle or Khorne, but I can't see Asuryan, Vaul or Kurnous to overlap with any other. Misunderstanding or not, people should have an argument for the things they claim. But I don't see any for these 3 gods. Further, if that was the only reason why Slaanesh devoured the Eldar Gods and why Isha (maybe) is captured by Nurgle, then I wonder how Cegorach got away from Tzeentch... And before another debate about Cegorach is opened, he is described to be alive and got away by an omnipotent story teller.


Asuryan and Kurnous and Vaul don't have overlaps with the other gods besides slannesh, hence why they were devoured. Isha and Khaine survived because other gods intervened on their behalf.

Cegorach got away because he was in the webway, not the warp.

Also, where is this omnipotent storyteller? I have never seen this mentioned in any source, or official statement by GW.

Hendarion
03-12-2010, 13:40
Asuryan and Kurnous and Vaul don't have overlaps with the other gods besides slannesh
Where does it say they overlap with Slaanesh? I don't see that and I've never seen a fluff for that either.

LordLucan
03-12-2010, 13:52
So, if I'm not reading that wrong; does that mean that the only reason Khaine survived, is because he was Khornes property?..

That makes him even more lackluster of a "god".


No, Khaine is not khorne's property. He is in some ways part of Khorne, or overlaps with him in a way.


Also, the reason Khaine survived is a complex thing. I personally think that the reason Khaine was cast out of the warp rather than being devoured or claimed by other warp gods, is because of his metal body.

Khorne's 'metal body' is mentioned in liber chaotica, and this could easily be khaine. Remember that during the war in heaven, Kahine smashed apart the Nightbringer's necrodermis, and that parts of the living metal of it melted in khaine's fiery form, and formed the aspect of the reaper. What if this was more literal? He literally gained a necrodermis, and hence grew a metal body, which would allow him to operate much more permanently in the material dimension.

Then, when he 'battles' slannesh in the warp and is overcome, part of him survives in his metal body, which is smashed.

Thus, we have the many living metal avatars of khaine, each with only the merest fraction of his essense within them.


Makes sense to me.

Hendarion
03-12-2010, 13:54
That is actually what I can agree with, as it makes sense. And I believe we often should take GW-fluff literally, it should be easy for kids to comprehend it after all ;)

LordLucan
03-12-2010, 13:56
Where does it say they overlap with Slaanesh? I don't see that and I've never seen a fluff for that either.

The Eldar gods were part of the eldar, and thus the chaos god formed from the majority of the eldar race would naturally overlap with them. hence why all the eldar gods were devoured by slannesh, save for those eldar gods who were saved either by other chaos powers (like Isha potentially) or by escaping the warp altogether (like Khaine or Qah, though Qah isn't an eldar god, but is potentially an old one god, which is worshipped by the Hrud alongside the 'eldar' pantheon)

Hendarion
03-12-2010, 14:01
The Eldar gods were part of the eldar, and thus the chaos god formed from the majority of the eldar race would naturally overlap with them.
Err... I disagree. Have a quote saying Vaul overlapped Slaanesh? If not, he didn't. A god of creation doesn't overlap a god of hedonism. Nurgle doesn't overlap Khorne or Tzeentch, still they all got created by the same source (arguable humans or all other races within the universe).
So that is not a valid argument.
Unless there is an official quote saying that Vaul, Asuryan or Kurnous overlapped Slaanesh, I'll say this is just fan-fiction in order to explain Slaanesh differently than just "living and real hunger".

Kage2020
03-12-2010, 15:28
Where does it say they overlap with Slaanesh? I don't see that and I've never seen a fluff for that either.
At its simplest? All things Eldar, at least originally, are all things Slaanesh. That's it. No complex symbolism or anything like that, just the fact that things wrought of the Eldar psyche were associated with Slaanesh.

The fact that Khorne has a thematic association with Khaine is neither here nor there.


No, Khaine is not khorne's property. He is in some ways part of Khorne, or overlaps with him in a way.
Once again, in defense of Charlie Scene's comment, it at least appears that Khorne viewed Khaine as Its property be that in the more abstract sense ("that's mine") to the more personal ("that's me"). Whether this substantiates a definitive connection between the two depends on the arguments of the nerds in question.


Also, the reason Khaine survived is a complex thing. I personally think that the reason Khaine was cast out of the warp rather than being devoured or claimed by other warp gods, is because of his metal body.
If we're getting into personal beliefs, I think that the whole "metal body" thing is a complete red herring. Then again, I find the whole "back in the day, gods were smaller and so could physically manifest" to be boor... errr, not to my liking for a number of reasons:

Either the "gods" back then were little more than the modern equivalent of daemons; or
Things be different back then and the warp operated in an entirely different manner.

While there is certainly some truth to the second point, it always seems disappointing to have to create another "state of existence" just to explain what might otherwise be hokey writing/conceptualisation. Same thing does for interstellar drives in the 40k universe--does every race need a different propulsion system just to make it interesting!? (That last being rhetorical question.)

While personal opinion is going to shade into the first point, I'm going to assume that it would generally be considered "bad form" to manifest your entire power into a single vessel. After all, daemons don't even seem to do it in the modern setting (YMMV). Thus, rather than making it different, why not make it the same? Thus, the Eldar gods are little more than the investment of power by a warp entity through a material form that may or may not be changed by the presence of the entities power.

Wha? It's a daemon, Jim, but not as we know it: technically, a daimon. Perhaps even a Loa. The great houses of Ulthanesh and Eldanesh were the last that were capable of summoning forth the "gods," or becoming daimon--the god manifest.

Wonderful thing is that it is fairly consistent between the various editions of the 'fluff.' Bad thing is that it's just another nerd theory. :D

Seriously, though, in this scheme it is the vessel that is corrupted physically and the essence is corrupted by association. After all, is the daemon bound by a sword, if freed, still a sword?

One can imagine one of the great Eldar heroes--a daimon--invested in the powers of Khaine and transformed by the puissant energies that flow through them both body and soul. Their hand drips with the blood of Eldanesh, disappearing before it hits the ground or, perhaps, leaving little blackened scorches on the earth. Their battle armour melds with their flesh* and their weapon becomes the Siun Daella, the "Doom that Wails."

The battle is joined, and the Avatar of Khaine fights Kaelis-Ra... And for a bit of originality, I'll skip all the battle stuff common in the BL novels and get to the result! ;) And then, the end. Kaelis-Ra does an Agent Smith and Khaine is corrupted by the living metal flesh of Kaelis-Ra. Perhaps even the daimon is destroyed, and all that is left is a transmuted body of changed flesh and living metal, maybe even changed forum. The god corrupted by the anathema of the Yngir.

Perhaps it even gave the long-term idea of the "battlesuits" that used to be called "avatars!" (j/k... maybe)

* For those wanting a modern example, check out First Heretic by Dembski-Bowden.

YMMV, of course. If, deep in the warp, Khaine had a shell of mystical metal that at least in the modern 'fluff' should have dissolved aeons ago then, well, fair enough. I'm fine with that. It's not for Kage-verse, but that doesn't mean that I cannot see a certain amount of coolness to it. :D


That is actually what I can agree with, as it makes sense. And I believe we often should take GW-fluff literally, it should be easy for kids to comprehend it after all
Well, kids are told that electrons are like little planets orbiting the atom. That just makes it an explanation through analogy so that you don't have to deal with the complexities of the situation. Same thing with mythology, of which this discussion now revolves. If you want to take it at face value--and there are some real interesting narrative possibilities if you do--then that's fair enough. On the other hand, for those that want to build up more complex explanations...? Well, there shouldn't be a problem with that. As we've seen in the thread it is entirely viable. Fan material? Yeah, but then again I'm off the opinion that quite often the fan material is often superior to the materials that make their way into publication (though that's not the same as saying the stuff that makes it into publication is bad).


Unless there is an official quote saying that Vaul, Asuryan or Kurnous overlapped Slaanesh, I'll say this is just fan-fiction in order to explain Slaanesh differently than just "living and real hunger".
A lot of things are not said specifically, but holding up hazy materials as a justified argument for a specific statement would probably be considered bad form. On the other hand, if you check out WD 127 there is the section on the Eldar's relationship to Slaanesh and Slaanesh's approach to all things Eldar. Whether you consider that definitive is up to you.

Kage

MagosHereticus
03-12-2010, 16:02
kage.... you love the narwhal :cheese:

also you ae wrong about the eldar gods, they were made using warpcraft taught to the eldar by the old ones, weapons made made from the psychic might of the entire eldar race for the sole purpose of fighting the necrons, they are not daemons in the conventional sense and only came to be called gods when the oldones disappeared leaving the eldar to fend for themselves (or did they? it is hinted that the final act of the oldones was the creation of the enslavers, which drove the ctan into stasis)


"Outlandish theory" indeed.
if read the metaphysics of 6th edition fantasy and earlier maybe you will be able to comprehend it more easily

Kage2020
03-12-2010, 16:35
Is it just me, or when it comes down to mythology people are ever so easy to bandy around the statement that someone is "wrong?" Weird.


also you ae wrong about the eldar gods, they were made using warpcraft taught to the eldar by the old ones, weapons made made from the psychic might of the entire eldar race for the sole purpose of fighting the necrons, they are not daemons in the conventional sense and only came to be called gods when the oldones disappeared leaving the eldar to fend for themselves (or did they? it is hinted that the final act of the oldones was the creation of the enslavers, which drove the ctan into stasis)
Or, mayhap, I just share a different interpretation of the evidence to you, MagosHereticus?

While I would agree that the the "aethyr gods" were created as weapons and have mentioned this in previous posts (as well as alternate approaches to the idea that the Eldar Gods are the Old Ones, another theory that I don't enjoy), I see no real requirement that this creates an exceptional circumstance in terms of the effect rather than the method. This is indeed a part of the point of the previous post insofar as it illustrates how you don't have to make everything different just to explain things.

For example, you talk about them being entities created by the "psychic might" of the Eldar. What then is Slaanesh other than another warp entity given form and being, at least initially, by the Eldar? If you wanted to monkey around with this further, what then are the children of the gods that are still (lesser) gods themselves? What then are the demi-gods (another point at which the concept of "daimon" comes into play)?

Remember, 'daimon' is not necessarily 'demon.'

That you do not find merit in it is fair enough. Ask yourself this, though: Does it provide an equally viable explanation of the background if one works with the caveat that the background, like myth, is "half lies and half truths?" If your answer is a considered "no," rather than just a knee-jerk one, then feel free to PM me with your observations if they are otherwise off topic.

Personally I imagine that you would be hard-pressed beyond the idea that the myths are taken as fact. In this case the observation that Khaine was contaminated by Nightbringer's necrodermis requirements him to be metal and, as a result of that, metal must shatter into the Avatars. That's fair enough. Forget that there are some potential problems to this, it would be the literal interpretation and that's just dandy.

It's all good, but so very hard to say that someone is plain wrong. :D

Kage

Hendarion
03-12-2010, 17:29
Fan material? Yeah, but then again I'm off the opinion that quite often the fan material is often superior to the materials that make their way into publication
The difference is that I am not interested in fan-made material. Same as if someone wants a Mac, he doesn't want a PC.

@MagosHereticus:
The Old Ones created the Enslavers? I thought that was a plague from the Warp that also killed the Old Ones.

Kage2020
03-12-2010, 17:39
The difference is that I am not interested in fan-made material. Same as if someone wants a Mac, he doesn't want a PC.
And that's fair enough, though it's often surprising to see on a discussion forum on the 40k universe, one that notoriously (and seemingly) by design doesn't make sense, so merely stating "facts" doesn't really do anything without the application of some decent creative imagination--it merely gives you data to make informed decisions. Just like your Mac user.

YMOV.

Either way, I look forward to the sharing of ideas and concepts in the context of the "factoids," and when that gets back I'll likely reply. :D

Kage

MagosHereticus
04-12-2010, 14:56
@MagosHereticus:
The Old Ones created the Enslavers? I thought that was a plague from the Warp that also killed the Old Ones.

the events that surround the death of the old ones are very murky, as are the origins of the enslavers

the might have been an accident or they might have been by design, no way to know for sure but the old ones started to gamble more and more as the war dragged on

considering your stance on fluff, i assume you will prefer the least amount of inferences and accept that the enslaver plague was likely a "natural" event

Kage2020
04-12-2010, 16:55
the events that surround the death of the old ones are very murky, as are the origins of the enslavers
And if you believe the older 'fluff' they're not actually dead... :D

Kage