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SgtTaters
28-11-2010, 08:10
So they're full of secrets yeah, but is it a blatant reputation of theirs that the guys in dark green and cream colored hoods are SUSPICIOUSLY Secretive?

Is it known that they kill overly inquisitive Inquisitors? Did anyone suspect that the sudden disappearance of that black templars ship was foul play?

Skimming through the codex though, Dark Angels and their successors are collectively known as "The Unforgiven" so that's common knowledge. Do other Imperial agents ever ask "hey, what's what the name? What are ya unforgiven for anyways?"

Bonus Question: Whenever DA's and SW's meet up their champions have to fight, which side has won more often? Or do they never actually talk about that.

The Inevitable One
28-11-2010, 08:45
Yes, the Imperium knows what the Dark Angels are up to most of the time. A notable feature of the "great" Dark Angels is that they abandon missions just to follow up on a rumor of a Fallen on the other side of the Milky Way Galaxy...

I don't really see the big deal why they have to kill people to keep it a secret. They should be lucky that they are even in the Imperium still...

Bonus Answer: The Chosen Children of Chuck Norris (Space Wolves). Nah, it really does not state who wins more though between the two.

Kirill
28-11-2010, 10:09
Yes, the Imperium knows what the Dark Angels are up to most of the time. A notable feature of the "great" Dark Angels is that they abandon missions just to follow up on a rumor of a Fallen on the other side of the Milky Way Galaxy...

I don't really see the big deal why they have to kill people to keep it a secret. They should be lucky that they are even in the Imperium still...

Bonus Answer: The Chosen Children of Chuck Norris (Space Wolves). Nah, it really does not state who wins more though between the two.


Lies lies, blasphemous lies!

Realistically, the Dark Angels to most of the Imperial forces would only ever be slightly more aloof than regular Space Marines.
Space Marines are not exactly the type to wander around and make conversation with other imperial forces.
Sure, Dark Angels ignoring your requests to speak, and operating almost completely independently would seem strange, but beggars can't be choosers, just to have Space Marines on your side at all is a blessing and i honestly doubt many imperial commanders deal with Space Marines on a regular enough basis with which to have a comparison too.

Other Space Marines would know well, I would say, of the secretive nature of the Dark Angels and their kin, but what they know would be limited, and they are brothers, there would be no need to seek more answers than they are comfortable sharing. You also have to remember the Dark Angels chapter itself still holds the title of The First Legion, something that wouldn't go unnoticed.

For forces more.. Inquisitive of mind, to be suspect is their nature, but even space marines are pause for thought, you would have to collect evidence on a huge scale before you could rightfully have them deemed excommunicate traitors and this goes for double for a first founding legion, particularly that of the first legion itself.
It would be known that they are suspiciously secretive to anyone who has an interest in learning why, simply because of all the walls the Dark Angels would put up to prevent them from even getting close. To have any evidence of the fact that they ended an Inquisitor would put you in the same shoes. Something i would say the Dark Angels attempt to prevent so they don't have to repeat, for obvious reasons.
I would say, for the sake of the topic, that being 'The Unforgiven' is indeed well known amongst inquisitors, and the high imperial lords that take an interest, but for the most part i would say is simply explained, or assumed that it is because they didn't reach Terra in time when they were needed most. Not a reason that would be completely untrue, but not completely the truth.

As for your bonus question? I don't think anyone knows. To make something up, i would say the record is something proudly displayed only between the two chapters, and that the expert duelist and martial skills of the Dark Angels are only held at bay by the wild and untamed fighting nature of the Space Wolves.

MagosHereticus
28-11-2010, 10:17
as with the time of ending theme, the dark angels are on the verge of being outed i believe, in the same way that the blood angels are on the verge of being destroyed by the flaw

massey
28-11-2010, 16:22
For all their vaunted status and power, inquisitors have to be careful around space marines. Remember, Space Wolves are out and out hostile to the Inquisition, going as far as to open fire as soon as they see them. Yet the SW remain "loyal Imperial citizens". The Dark Angels don't do that. They don't randomly open fire at other Imperial forces (at least, not where anyone can see). They've kept this secret for ten thousand years. You'd have to think they'd be pretty good at it by now.

So the Dark Angels are maybe a bit bigger jerks than your generic marine chapter. They don't always respond to your hails. Every century or so there'll be a record of the Dark Angels just leaving in the middle of a battle. They're notoriously bitchy. But that's really not that bad. It's certainly no worse that that time the inquisitor tried to contact the Space Wolves, and when he turned on the viewscreen, Ragnar had his ass pressed against the camera. Cheeks spread. The Dark Angels at least don't do that (too uptight, say the Wolves). Seriously, when you've got the Marines Malevolent out there eating babies, or executing loyal Imperial citizens because "they weren't tough enough", and you've got the Minotaurs with freaking horns growing out of their heads, or the Flesh Tearers who are 30 seconds away from screaming "Blood for the Blood God!", the Dark Angels just really don't seem like that big a deal.

Sure, they sit around brooding half the time, and they aren't much fun in conversation. But eventually even the most curious of inquisitors will be satisfied that they aren't going to do anything worse than stand around on rooftops and say "I am the night". It's a well known fact that the Dark Angels hate Chaos, and that they go out of their way to go after certain traitor marines. In Imperial Armor 9, they offer their assistance to an inquisitor if he'll agree that they get first dibs on some of the prisoners. He agrees, and it's stated that he knows these chaos guys will just disappear into the Dark Angels' dungeons, never to be seen again. He doesn't know what the Dark Angels are gonna do to them, but he knows it won't be good. So he agrees.

So yeah, you are a little more trusting of the Ultramarines:
http://ctpatriot1970.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/captainamerica.jpg

than the Dark Angels:
http://blog.reflexstock.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/batman/2840125224_2e798fd264_o.jpg

But when the Dark Angels are known to spend their days hunting down and killing guys like this:
http://www.nefariousfilms.com/Images/Monsters/tarman.jpg

It makes you feel a little safer with them.

Lusall
28-11-2010, 17:50
From what I've read from the Dark Angels codex, the Space Wolves Codex and every other source I could get my paws on...some of the more clever minded know something is up, but not much more than that. If anyone outside the chapter knows about the fallen (beyond the fallen themselves) they'd be high ranking inquisitors and they're not talking or doing much about it.

And as someone said above, they're the first legion...so that would be another reason to simply turn a blind eye to what they do, considering how insignificant it is considering...you know...everything else. You have to remember that the Dark Angels are highly respected across the breadth of the Imperium. Except for Horus...the Lion was the most successful Primarch as far as conquests go and efficiency, and their gene seed is extremely pure. (second only to the Ultras), so most have little reason to suspect something's up. And...they look like a normal codex chapter...

So the list goes on and on.

The Inevitable One
28-11-2010, 18:32
Lies lies, blasphemous lies!

I should have worded my statement a bit more clearly. The Imperium calls on them to help them with a mission and the Dark Angels decline if they are following up on a Fallen.

Lupe
28-11-2010, 19:02
Personal theory to follow:

I personally like to imagine that the Imperium (hereby represented by the High Lords and maybe the very top tier of Inquisitors) knows a bit more than the Dark Angels would like to be known.

Still, their rather pointless need to atone for the sins of their forefathers would, under that assumption, be seen as an asset. After all, this hunt for the Fallen saves the Imperium's bureaucracy a great deal of trouble rooting out possible insurgencies. And if you're feeling cynical, you could also argue that it's a failsafe way to ensure their loyalty... So they're kinda unreliable at times, but then again, losing a world or two because the DA withdraw at a wrong time is usually better than having a traitor be allowed to build up power unchecked elsewhere... at least as far as some people are concerned...

And, given that Inquisitors have quite a degree of liberty in how to conduct their business, I don't expect anyone would miss the occasional overzealous agent who oversteps his pay grade and tries to look into things he shouldn't have...

Drasanil
28-11-2010, 19:18
their gene seed is extremely pure. (second only to the Ultras),

*spits*

Matt Ward strikes again. Dark Angels had the purest geneseed of all.

Mannimarco
28-11-2010, 19:43
And the people shall look upon these........transgressions with the fluff and they shall be known as "Wardisms". A common symptom of the illness which shall be known as "Ward Syndrome"

spetswalshe
28-11-2010, 19:54
I seriously doubt more than a literal handful of people outside the Chapter have any idea what the DA are up to. After all, the vast majority of the Dark Angels don't have a clue - it's only the officers, and even then, the only people who know the whole story are the commanders and the Deathwing. People in the know - which means fewer than one in a billion human beings - might know they're a bit weird and not to be trusted, but that's true of almost any Chapter. No Chapter espouses humility or peaceful resolution; insult their pride and the only ones that won't kill you are the ones who consider you beneath their contempt (sure, no one likes their pride being insulted but everyone in the Guard is man enough to deal with it).

The disappearing-mid-battle thing simply isn't an issue; you'd have to work with them multiple times and have it happen on numerous occasions (when in reality it happens once in a blue moon; most DA operations go off without a sniff of Fallen) to notice it and not put it down to a one-off. The idea that it happens all the time is ridiculous; the Imperium simply wouldn't stand for it, anymore than they would if the Space Wolves really did shoot all the Inquisitors they see (when in reality they just have an antagonistic relationship with them, like Russia does the US; no Chapter is bigger than the Imperium, no matter what it's followers might like to think). Even when the Fallen do come into the equation, having to go off-mission to track a sucker down might be necessary on one mission, but on another it might require something beneficial and not obviously suspect, like spearheading a fresh assault (as Marines are wont to do), or going off-mission in the sense of conducting a lightning raid into an over-run fortress in order to rescue a batch of civilians who everyone else had given up on (and one of whom might happen to know where Fallen #2297 is eating lunch these days).

Bonus Answer; Obviously it results in a draw, where the Space Wolf starts laughing and the Dark Angel cold-cocks him (again). That way neither Chapter is 'better' than the other one, the Wolves can continue their millenia-long hissy fit and the Dark Angels and continue to not care.


*spits*

Matt Ward strikes again. Dark Angels had the purest geneseed of all.

It was suggested that it was suspiciously pure, IIRC. Which given their shady awesomeness probably meant they were pulling a long con.

enygma7
28-11-2010, 20:01
Not even most of the dark angels know about the dark angels secrets... So no, it isn't general knowledge.

The High Lords of Terra (and probably certain of the Inquisition) do suspect *something* is up though. Despite the purity of the Dark Angels gene seed they seem remarkably reluctant to create successor chapters from it.

Drasanil
28-11-2010, 20:09
It was suggested that it was suspiciously pure, IIRC. Which given their shady awesomeness probably meant they were pulling a long con.

That's what I liked about it though, the chapter with the secret shame, that's always seeking redeption at all costs is actually the purest of them all. It says so much about 40k, just like how the Blood Angels who are some of the noblest in spirit are also cursed with the Black Rage.

Now it's just Ultramarines are noblest, purest and bestest ever and all the other Marines OMG squee like a preteen girl at a Justin Beeber concert when they see them.

Kirill
29-11-2010, 02:02
Not even most of the dark angels know about the dark angels secrets... So no, it isn't general knowledge.

The High Lords of Terra (and probably certain of the Inquisition) do suspect *something* is up though. Despite the purity of the Dark Angels gene seed they seem remarkably reluctant to create successor chapters from it.

One of the reasons generally attributed to this reluctance is the nature of the Dark Angels and their Successors to hold close ties, and act as effectively, several parts of a legion divided.
Azrael, being the current Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels can effectively call upon a Successor chapter to do his wishes. Of course, there would be a lot more tact involved than simply "Go to X, do Y because i said so", and council and negotiation would be common, I would believe, but he still can effectively pull rank on any Dark Angel chapter.

Another interesting thing to note is that at his request, there was a Successor created by the High Lords. One has to wonder just how he did it.
The Dark Angels conspiracy theorist in me makes me wonder just how much he knows that they don't want him to share, particularly how reluctant they've been in the past.

Londinium
29-11-2010, 02:35
That's what I liked about it though, the chapter with the secret shame, that's always seeking redeption at all costs is actually the purest of them all. It says so much about 40k, just like how the Blood Angels who are some of the noblest in spirit are also cursed with the Black Rage.

Now it's just Ultramarines are noblest, purest and bestest ever and all the other Marines OMG squee like a preteen girl at a Justin Beeber concert when they see them.

Erm the Ultramarines have always had the purest gene seed, at least since the 2nd edition when this stuff was fleshed out. That's one of their 'things', Dark Angels were generally stated as having 'amongst' the purest with no mutations unlike say the Fists. It was never retconned to benefit the Ultras, it's merely been tweaked to suit the Dark Angel's ambiguity.

The Dark Angels are up to something regarding their geneseed tithes and the High Lords know it. You could go to the extreme conclusion that they attacked some Ultramarines successors to get their hands on some Ultramarine geneseed or something simple like bribing someone/switching labels on tithe samples on Mars.

Drasanil
29-11-2010, 02:53
The Dark Angels are up to something regarding their geneseed tithes and the High Lords know it.

The Dark Angels are up to something period (the fallen) which is why the High Lords are reluctant to use their geneseed. The entire point of the blurb was to demonstrate how the DA's odd behaviour is tainting their otherwise perfect record, right down to their geneseed. Their quest for redemption makes them appear more guilty/traitorous than they actually are, it's part of their tragedy.


You could go to the extreme conclusion that they attacked some Ultramarines successors to get their hands on some Ultramarine geneseed or something simple like bribing someone/switching labels on tithe samples on Mars.

Or you could say that the Ultramarines fearing their rep for perfection may be blemished have been bribing the admech to say DA geneseed is actually theirs:p

massey
29-11-2010, 03:03
Dark Angels geneseed is stable, has no known mutations, and all their organs work. They're basically the same as the Ultras. Trying to determine who has the more stable geneseed is really just a matter of parsing a few throwaway quotes. However, it's clear that the Ultras are favored when it comes to creating new chapters. It probably has something to do with the fact that a new Ultra successor generally runs off and does their own thing.

"Yeah! We're the Flying Elvises Chapter! We're gonna go to the Tennessee Nebula and fight Orks!" And then they run off and do their own thing. Dark Angels successors seem to keep the family ties a little tighter than that.

"We're the Angels of Dark! We're gonna hang out in the Rock and do whatever Azrael says. What? Repaint our armor? Oh, I guess..."

TheLaughingGod
29-11-2010, 03:07
Erm the Ultramarines have always had the purest gene seed, at least since the 2nd edition when this stuff was fleshed out. That's one of their 'things', Dark Angels were generally stated as having 'amongst' the purest with no mutations unlike say the Fists. It was never retconned to benefit the Ultras, it's merely been tweaked to suit the Dark Angel's ambiguity.
Um, that simply isn't true. If anything Dark Angels and Ultramarines are about on the same level. Least degradation, no mutation, etc, all working implants.




The Dark Angels are up to something regarding their geneseed tithes and the High Lords know it. You could go to the extreme conclusion that they attacked some Ultramarines successors to get their hands on some Ultramarine geneseed or something simple like bribing someone/switching labels on tithe samples on Mars. Uh no. They aren't, and they don't and you couldn't. There are actually no mutations in the Dark Angels geneseed. It IS their geneseed. They ONLY reason the High Lords might be hesitant about using it is they're strengthening the Legion that's now disguised as Codex Chapters.

I swear, the Dark Angels get so much fanon bandied about because people just repeat myths they've heard someone else make up.

Kirill
29-11-2010, 03:37
Dark Angels geneseed is stable, has no known mutations, and all their organs work. They're basically the same as the Ultras. Trying to determine who has the more stable geneseed is really just a matter of parsing a few throwaway quotes. However, it's clear that the Ultras are favored when it comes to creating new chapters. It probably has something to do with the fact that a new Ultra successor generally runs off and does their own thing.

"Yeah! We're the Flying Elvises Chapter! We're gonna go to the Tennessee Nebula and fight Orks!" And then they run off and do their own thing. Dark Angels successors seem to keep the family ties a little tighter than that.

"We're the Angels of Dark! We're gonna hang out in the Rock and do whatever Azrael says. What? Repaint our armor? Oh, I guess..."

Firstly; Zomg, 1999 posts, massey.

Secondly, i would say you're right. Creating more space marines for the Dark Angels is bad on a number of levels. Firstly, going by the Codex Astartes, it would be bad, because the idea is Decentralization of power, more over, the Dark Angels are openly shadowy in their nature, and clearly distrusting of others, and putting power in that which isn't transparent in it's goals would be something nobody would be too keen on. Though it still doesn't explain how Azrael got a chapter created by what is assume to be a quick word in the highlords collective ear..

A little more on the current topic of the thread, i would say Dark Angel geneseed, or rather, that of Lion El'Johnson is probably more pure at this point then that of Guilliman right now, simply because there's more instances of Guilliman seed around the galaxy, and there-by, more chance of mutation :p

shadowhawk2008
29-11-2010, 04:11
It wasn't Azrael who got a new successor chapter created but one of his predecessors quite a few thousand years ago.

Son of Sanguinius
29-11-2010, 04:25
So they're full of secrets yeah, but is it a blatant reputation of theirs that the guys in dark green and cream colored hoods are SUSPICIOUSLY Secretive?

Is it known that they kill overly inquisitive Inquisitors? Did anyone suspect that the sudden disappearance of that black templars ship was foul play?

Skimming through the codex though, Dark Angels and their successors are collectively known as "The Unforgiven" so that's common knowledge. Do other Imperial agents ever ask "hey, what's what the name? What are ya unforgiven for anyways?"

Bonus Question: Whenever DA's and SW's meet up their champions have to fight, which side has won more often? Or do they never actually talk about that.

Sorry if someone else brought up this point.

There is a very practical reason not to dig into the nature of the Dark Angels. They are a chapter who turn in very pure geneseed, are ruthless in their persecution of the Emperor's enemies, have a history almost unmatched in its well-earned decoration, and who seem to be in the prime of their strength as a Chapter. For pragmatic individuals in the Imperium who have a clue to the treasonous past of the sons of the Lion, they probably are more than willing to turn a blind eye in order to have an awesomely powerful military force on their side.

It's the same reason that's actually printed the Space Wolves codex. The benefits outweigh the risks and it would require a massive deployment of forces to destroy the Chapter. Furthermore, if you declare the Dark Angels to be traitors, who is to say they won't become exactly that? Then you've taken a perceived enemy and made it into a terrifyingly real one with a fully mobile planetoid as a base of operations.

Those who are interested in maintaining the status quo let the short-sighted, ambitious Inquisitors level accusations and watch those Inquisitors have tragic accidents.

Kirill
29-11-2010, 04:26
It wasn't Azrael who got a new successor chapter created but one of his predecessors quite a few thousand years ago.

Mayhaps, it's been a while since i did read the codex, and i really can't be bothered going and getting it right now. So lets assume for the sake of the argument that instead of "Azrael" I said "Previous grandmaster of the Dark Angels" :p

Drasanil
29-11-2010, 05:52
Furthermore, if you declare the Dark Angels to be traitors, who is to say they won't become exactly that? Then you've taken a perceived enemy and made it into a terrifyingly real one with a fully mobile planetoid as a base of operations.

And lets not forget First Foundings are a pretty big deal. What happens if you declare the Dark Angels "traitors" and the other First Founding chapters (and their imediate sucessors by extension) "disagree" with your assesment? Not pretty...

Londinium
29-11-2010, 05:59
Um, that simply isn't true. If anything Dark Angels and Ultramarines are about on the same level. Least degradation, no mutation, etc, all working implants.

The Dark Angels geneseed has never been stated as the purest, whereas the Ultramarines geneseed is regularly stated as the purest. I'll take that as evidence that the Dark Angels geneseed has degraded somewhat compared to Ultramarines, even if all the implants still work. Even allowing for a little bit of in character 'the ultramarines are amazing, we do everything perfect blah blah blah', there is still ample evidence their geneseed is the purest. The DA's is however certainly very good, which is what makes the High Lord's reluctance to use it puzzling but it's not the best.


Uh no. They aren't, and they don't and you couldn't. There are actually no mutations in the Dark Angels geneseed. It IS their geneseed. They ONLY reason the High Lords might be hesitant about using it is they're strengthening the Legion that's now disguised as Codex Chapters.

I swear, the Dark Angels get so much fanon bandied about because people just repeat myths they've heard someone else make up.

Having no mutations doesn't = totally pure and untouched from the original. Which is what Ultramarines geneseed is generally alluded to. Also you'll notice I never said any of that stuff was canon. I was blatantly theorising various alternative ideas as to why the High Lords might think something is up with the geneseed, if you ignore the mainsteam theory that it is very pure but the High Lords don't use it because they know something about the Fallen.

Personally I believe in the idea that it's very pure but the High Lords are loathe to use it because they know of the Fallen or something about them. However it's also fun to theorise other ideas, like there being some sort of taint in it and the Dark Angels having to cover it up via stealing other geneseed. If I remember correctly one of the few non Unforgiven Dark Angels successors was a hybrid with Ultramarine geneseed in the Cursed Founding and didn't go well at all.

Son of Sanguinius
29-11-2010, 06:00
Very good point, Drasanil. Still though, I'd like to see a story about a powerful Inquisitor who is trying to make his or her big break by bringing down the Dark Angels.

TheLaughingGod
29-11-2010, 08:44
Very good point, Drasanil. Still though, I'd like to see a story about a powerful Inquisitor who is trying to make his or her big break by bringing down the Dark Angels.

And the next day the Chapter armory had a brand new Servitor... :evilgrin:

Hideous Loon
29-11-2010, 14:36
That's probably what'll happen, although one presumes that the Dark Angels would be a bit more subtle.

I do not see why the Dark Angels would tell the Imperium anything. They are darn good at keeping secrets (a guy on page 1 said that not even all the Dark Angels know about their secrets), and it is not difficult to stonewall the Imperium as long as you stay devoted, keep sending in their gene-seed and pursue the Emperor's enemies with vigour.

Nazrax
29-11-2010, 23:11
I would think that an especially sly and cunning inquisitor who has gone to great lengths to discover the dark angels secrets would see what incredibly useful pawns they make. Why bother trying to bring them down when it's so much easier and more productive to use them?
One could use the "hint" of a fallen to have them go anywhere in the galaxy, ruthlessly hunting down whomever/whatever said inquisitor wanted. Now of course to do so wouldn't be all that easy but far easier than tryin to bring down the first legion.

grayghost
30-11-2010, 13:38
If I recall correctly, wasn't one of the events from the Eye of Terror campaign a formal burying of the hatchet between Azrael and Logan Grimnar? And I believe I've read that Lion El'Jonson secured the most victories of the Primarchs save only Horus himself. He might not have been the strongest, fiercest, fastest or what have you, but he seems to have been the second best strategist.

Israfael
30-11-2010, 14:02
Only what we allow them to know.. :shifty:

LexxBomb
30-11-2010, 14:08
he was probably the greatest strategist actually as he was found mid-way through the Great Crusade... Horus had about twice the time to clock up victories...

On Gene Seed... I am sure the Angels of Death Codex stated the DA had the purest Geneseed followed by the Ultramarines... 3rd ed saw the introduction of "along side" and now we have "after" maybe it shows the DA geneseed becoming unstable or it could represent a trend for the Adeptus Mechanicus Gene Specialists to missread the Geneseed as they lose knowledge (which they do every time they use a Rejuvant Tank- as they have to relearn it all over again)

MagosHereticus
30-11-2010, 14:37
Sorry if someone else brought up this point.

There is a very practical reason not to dig into the nature of the Dark Angels. They are a chapter who turn in very pure geneseed, are ruthless in their persecution of the Emperor's enemies, have a history almost unmatched in its well-earned decoration, and who seem to be in the prime of their strength as a Chapter. For pragmatic individuals in the Imperium who have a clue to the treasonous past of the sons of the Lion, they probably are more than willing to turn a blind eye in order to have an awesomely powerful military force on their side.

It's the same reason that's actually printed the Space Wolves codex. The benefits outweigh the risks and it would require a massive deployment of forces to destroy the Chapter. Furthermore, if you declare the Dark Angels to be traitors, who is to say they won't become exactly that? Then you've taken a perceived enemy and made it into a terrifyingly real one with a fully mobile planetoid as a base of operations.

Those who are interested in maintaining the status quo let the short-sighted, ambitious Inquisitors level accusations and watch those Inquisitors have tragic accidents.

i personally think it is more sinister than that, i think the lords of the inquisition know exactly what they are up to and probably not only remove anyone unfortunate enough to stumble onto their secret as well as pull the dark angle's strings with rumours of fallen angels and keep them focused by tormenting them with ploys aimed at making the dark angels feel like they are about to be discovered

think about it, the DA might be a powerful military force in their own right but the fallen have been spread across the galaxy and across ten millennia, and the dark angels do not have the power or the information network that the inquisition has, nor would they have been able to stop interrogations of daemons by inquisitors nor could they stop seers gaining visions of the calamity (and who knows what psychic sensitive minds felt during the death of caliban)

who loves a good conspiracy?

Goosey_J
30-11-2010, 15:24
If I recall correctly, wasn't one of the events from the Eye of Terror campaign a formal burying of the hatchet between Azrael and Logan Grimnar? And I believe I've read that Lion El'Jonson secured the most victories of the Primarchs save only Horus himself. He might not have been the strongest, fiercest, fastest or what have you, but he seems to have been the second best strategist.

I always perceived the Lion to be the greatest strategist amongst the Primarchs. That's definitely the impression the Horus Heresy DA books give off. The Lion's flaw was that he was pretty much incapable of understanding human emotion or trusting others. There's that bit in the first HH DA book where the protagonist of the DA series is alone in a tower on Caliban with Lion'el and he realises how utterly alone his Primarch is, to a point where he finds it a little disconcerting.
It is in this aspect where Horus completely one ups the Lion. Horus has tactical brilliance, but he was also Mr. Personality, 'a diplomat witout peer' - an incredibly important facet of being a General. Combine that with militaristic ability and you've got the greatest leader of men the Galaxy has ever seen (save of course, the big E).

The Lion may have been the greatest tactician of all his brothers, but it takes more than that to be the Warmaster.

Londinium
30-11-2010, 19:04
I always perceived the Lion to be the greatest strategist amongst the Primarchs. That's definitely the impression the Horus Heresy DA books give off. The Lion's flaw was that he was pretty much incapable of understanding human emotion or trusting others. There's that bit in the first HH DA book where the protagonist of the DA series is alone in a tower on Caliban with Lion'el and he realises how utterly alone his Primarch is, to a point where he finds it a little disconcerting.
It is in this aspect where Horus completely one ups the Lion. Horus has tactical brilliance, but he was also Mr. Personality, 'a diplomat witout peer' - an incredibly important facet of being a General. Combine that with militaristic ability and you've got the greatest leader of men the Galaxy has ever seen (save of course, the big E).

The Lion may have been the greatest tactician of all his brothers, but it takes more than that to be the Warmaster.

Lion'El Johnson: The Autistic Primarch?

Israfael
30-11-2010, 19:47
I always perceived the Lion to be the greatest strategist amongst the Primarchs. That's definitely the impression the Horus Heresy DA books give off.

I definitely agree with this, even if I weren't to play Dark Angels myself. It seems like he is clearly the most gifted in regards to military tactics amongst his brothers - although it seems to be something that gets associated with many Primarchs via codices or fluff - as if they're afraid they'll anger a player of another chapter.


The Lion's flaw was that he was pretty much incapable of understanding human emotion or trusting others. There's that bit in the first HH DA book where the protagonist of the DA series is alone in a tower on Caliban with Lion'el and he realises how utterly alone his Primarch is, to a point where he finds it a little disconcerting.
It is in this aspect where Horus completely one ups the Lion. Horus has tactical brilliance, but he was also Mr. Personality, 'a diplomat witout peer' - an incredibly important facet of being a General. Combine that with militaristic ability and you've got the greatest leader of men the Galaxy has ever seen (save of course, the big E).

The Lion may have been the greatest tactician of all his brothers, but it takes more than that to be the Warmaster.

Now this I disagree with. I myself got the distinct impression from the HH novels that the Lion is unable to know if he can trust people. He sees enemies in every shadow. His time spent amongst the beasts of Caliban, living by his wits alone, has left him struggling to live amongst people. He seems to have extreme difficulty trusting others; it's not that he cannot understand human emotion. In fact, he's very charismatic and charming with his men, and seems a fine diplomat - up until the Chaos ambassador insults the Emperor - at which point that feral nature rises to the fore.

I think that's why he was always a strong rival, and later friend of Russ. They were quite similar due to their bestial natures, regardless of their human-sides personality quirks.

MagosHereticus
01-12-2010, 02:25
Lion'El Johnson: The Autistic Primarch?

in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium there is only equal opportunity employment

Fallen DA
01-12-2010, 03:20
I would think that an especially sly and cunning inquisitor who has gone to great lengths to discover the dark angels secrets would see what incredibly useful pawns they make. Why bother trying to bring them down when it's so much easier and more productive to use them?
One could use the "hint" of a fallen to have them go anywhere in the galaxy, ruthlessly hunting down whomever/whatever said inquisitor wanted. Now of course to do so wouldn't be all that easy but far easier than tryin to bring down the first legion.


I would imagine that any Inquisitor that hinted to the DA on any level about any Fallen is likely to suffer a tragic fall in the shower himself, splattering his brains all over the wall lol....:evilgrin:

Fallen DA
01-12-2010, 03:30
Sorry if someone else brought up this point.

There is a very practical reason not to dig into the nature of the Dark Angels. They are a chapter who turn in very pure geneseed, are ruthless in their persecution of the Emperor's enemies, have a history almost unmatched in its well-earned decoration, and who seem to be in the prime of their strength as a Chapter. For pragmatic individuals in the Imperium who have a clue to the treasonous past of the sons of the Lion, they probably are more than willing to turn a blind eye in order to have an awesomely powerful military force on their side.

It's the same reason that's actually printed the Space Wolves codex. The benefits outweigh the risks and it would require a massive deployment of forces to destroy the Chapter. Furthermore, if you declare the Dark Angels to be traitors, who is to say they won't become exactly that? Then you've taken a perceived enemy and made it into a terrifyingly real one with a fully mobile planetoid as a base of operations.

Those who are interested in maintaining the status quo let the short-sighted, ambitious Inquisitors level accusations and watch those Inquisitors have tragic accidents.

I agree. I think that there are enough openings to allow GW to develope the fluff towards the DA being outted if they wanted to :shifty: But as it stands very few people even within the Unforgiven actually know much if anything, and those few instances where the DA have acted suspiciously, they've managed to cover their tracts well enough. The High Lords of Terra might have a few suspicions, but the facts may well be buried with only the odd servant knowing tiny pieces of the whole picture so unable to connect any dots.

MagosHereticus
01-12-2010, 03:33
I would imagine that any Inquisitor that hinted to the DA on any level about any Fallen is likely to suffer a tragic fall in the shower himself, splattering his brains all over the wall lol....:evilgrin:

the DA would never know that the rumour of concerning one of the fallen was linked to the inquisitor, everyone seems to think inquisitors lack guile and dont understand the nuances of pulling off a conspiracy

Drasanil
01-12-2010, 03:55
the DA would never know that the rumour of concerning one of the fallen was linked to the inquisitor, everyone seems to think inquisitors lack guile and dont understand the nuances of pulling off a conspiracy

Wait, you mean the =][= isn't just mad Jedi Skillz and Exterminatus:confused:

Kudzu
01-12-2010, 04:02
*spits*

Matt Ward strikes again. Dark Angels had the purest geneseed of all.

You know, I almost feel sorry the Smurfs. Every other chapter has some cool ability, specialization, or just some semblance of personality to make them interesting... the Ultramarines super awesome power is "follows the rules really well".

I kinda see it like that scene from 300:

You there, Space Wolf, what makes you awesome? I'm a space viking and can drink you under the table while beating you up.

And you, Blood Angel? I'm a space vampire that has a pretty good chance of flipping out and riding a deep-striking Landraider while wailing on my guitar.

Dark Angel? I'm very mysterious and wear cool robes.

White Scar? I like to go faaaaast! (I still want to see a White Scar army that has nascar stickers.)
......
......
......

How about you Ultramarine? Well, my armor is blue and I follow the book, people want to be just like me, right?



They're the hall monitors of the marines; We're talking about a chapter that gets a purity seal for looking both ways before crossing the street and terminator honors for bringing Calgar an apple. Let them have purist geneseed, man, just... let them have it.

Drasanil
01-12-2010, 04:54
...snip... They're the hall monitors of the marines; We're talking about a chapter that gets a purity seal for looking both ways before crossing the street and terminator honors for bringing Calgar an apple.

That would be an improvement over their current fluff, just take a look at 1d4chan's Ultramarines page. I don't think we're allowed to link to it directly, but really take a look, they treat the ultras worse than elves and that's saying something.


Let them have purist geneseed, man, just... let them have it.

They lost their right to the purest geneseed when they became Matt Ward's* wet-dream material, they can have it back when the new edition starts and someone else writes the new codex**.

Btw awesome post, I almost felt sympathy for the smurfs... almost:D


*Nothing can be considered "pure" after such treatment.
**Assuming the new codex isn't actually worse.

shadowhawk2008
01-12-2010, 05:09
blame the writer not the content.

MagosHereticus
01-12-2010, 07:07
That would be an improvement over their current fluff, just take a look at 1d4chan's Ultramarines page. I don't think we're allowed to link to it directly, but really take a look, they treat the ultras worse than elves and that's saying something.



They lost their right to the purest geneseed when they became Matt Ward's* wet-dream material, they can have it back when the new edition starts and someone else writes the new codex**.

Btw awesome post, I almost felt sympathy for the smurfs... almost:D


*Nothing can be considered "pure" after such treatment.
**Assuming the new codex isn't actually worse.

i hope the next edition of the codex hints that ultramarines are more susceptible to making grandiose propaganda than any other

Ka Faraq Gatri
01-12-2010, 19:06
You know, I almost feel sorry the Smurfs. Every other chapter has some cool ability, specialization, or just some semblance of personality to make them interesting... the Ultramarines super awesome power is "follows the rules really well".

The thing is that there has to be a baseline - a "standard" Space Marine chapter against which the others can be measured - and that is the Ultramarines.

The Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templars et al are considered unique and different because there is that core chapter that they can be compared to. I find that interesting in and of itself.

Not to mention that Graham McNeill has done great things with them, primarily by showing us (in Uriel Ventris) an Ultramarine who is different from the norm - free-thinking and allowing variance from the Codex.

Kudzu
01-12-2010, 19:27
Not to mention that Graham McNeill has done great things with them, primarily by showing us (in Uriel Ventris) an Ultramarine who is different from the norm - free-thinking and allowing variance from the Codex.

So in other words he's not really an Ultramarine? This is also the same guy who unleashed the Nightbringer, I wouldn't go around praising him that much.

spetswalshe
01-12-2010, 20:11
Do the Ultramarines waste valuable training/murdering time with drinking, singing and braiding each other's hair? With painting, gazing longingly at your own reflection and biting nubile virgins? With torturing people, searching for Fallen and betraying your very beliefs to wipe away a literally meaningless stain on your honour?

Does an Ultramarine refer to everything as 'Ultra-', as though they're so insecure as to believe anything of any importance must be etymologically related to them? Like a kid who calls his bike a Rogerbike and his pencil a Rogerquill?

Does an Ultramarine require a gimmick to feel special? They don't feel the need to sing songs about their own bravery like the Wolves, or wear creepy child masks like the Blood Angels, or obsess over past events like the Dark Angels. No, an Ultramarine just gets things done.

Mat Ward has done them a disservice; but which of you are free from that? And I must reiterate; at least they aren't Ultramarines in the sense of being Wolf Wolfy McWolf and his friend Bloody Blood Blood. I mean they're wearing ultramarine armour but that doesn't mean they dye their hair.

Wakerofgods
01-12-2010, 20:50
What is this fallen thing?

Why didn't the dark angels reach terra in time?

Whats going on!?

Lord_Crull
01-12-2010, 20:54
*spits*

Matt Ward strikes again. Dark Angels had the purest geneseed of all.

Is that in the Dark Angels codex? Because the Dark Angels IA article says they have one of the purest.

IA Dark Angels


As the first Space Marine Legion, the Dark Angels' gene-seed is one of the purest and least degraded of all. With the break-up of the Space Marine Legions following the Horus Heresy, the Dark Angels gave rise to there successor Chapters, the Angels of Absolution, the Angels of Redemption and Angels of Vengeance. Collectively these Chapters are known as the Unforgiven and each continues the work of the parent Chapter in hunting the Fallen.

Says nothing about being the purest of them all. In fact it implies that there are others equally as pure.

In fact I can't seem to find anything in Ward's codex that actually says the Ultramarines have the purest geneseed. It states that there geneseed is favoured for making new chapters but nothing about it being the purest above all.


Do the Ultramarines waste valuable training/murdering time with drinking, singing and braiding each other's hair? With painting, gazing longingly at your own reflection and biting nubile virgins? With torturing people, searching for Fallen and betraying your very beliefs to wipe away a literally meaningless stain on your honour?

Does an Ultramarine refer to everything as 'Ultra-', as though they're so insecure as to believe anything of any importance must be etymologically related to them? Like a kid who calls his bike a Rogerbike and his pencil a Rogerquill?

Does an Ultramarine require a gimmick to feel special? They don't feel the need to sing songs about their own bravery like the Wolves, or wear creepy child masks like the Blood Angels, or obsess over past events like the Dark Angels. No, an Ultramarine just gets things done.


I would gladly sig this if I had room.

Kudzu
01-12-2010, 21:32
No, an Ultramarine just gets things done.


If by getting things done you mean "miss out on or lose every important battle in the Imperium when they're not unleashing one of the worst evils in the galaxy" then yes, they certainly "get things done".

Back on topic, how much do the DA successor chapters (well, the chaptermasters of the successors at least.) actually know? Everything? Anything? Nothing?

Israfael
01-12-2010, 21:39
Do the Ultramarines waste valuable training/murdering time with drinking, singing and braiding each other's hair? With painting, gazing longingly at your own reflection and biting nubile virgins? With torturing people, searching for Fallen and betraying your very beliefs to wipe away a literally meaningless stain on your honour?

Does an Ultramarine refer to everything as 'Ultra-', as though they're so insecure as to believe anything of any importance must be etymologically related to them? Like a kid who calls his bike a Rogerbike and his pencil a Rogerquill?

Does an Ultramarine require a gimmick to feel special? They don't feel the need to sing songs about their own bravery like the Wolves, or wear creepy child masks like the Blood Angels, or obsess over past events like the Dark Angels. No, an Ultramarine just gets things done.

Mat Ward has done them a disservice; but which of you are free from that? And I must reiterate; at least they aren't Ultramarines in the sense of being Wolf Wolfy McWolf and his friend Bloody Blood Blood. I mean they're wearing ultramarine armour but that doesn't mean they dye their hair.

While I myself am against the always fashionable Ultra-bashing, you really killed the quality of your post with the need to belittle other chapters to make your point.

Lord_Crull
01-12-2010, 22:50
If by getting things done you mean "miss out on or lose every important battle in the Imperium when they're not unleashing one of the worst evils in the galaxy" then yes, they certainly "get things done".


Hmmm, I don't recall that ever happening. I do remember them winning the Battle of Macragge, pwning the Tyranids again at Ichar IV, holding the Imperium together after the Heresy, and having Horus be so scared of them he had to send them to the other side of the galaxy so he could feel safe. Among many, many other things.

Ramius4
01-12-2010, 23:20
So they're full of secrets yeah, but is it a blatant reputation of theirs that the guys in dark green and cream colored hoods are SUSPICIOUSLY Secretive?

Is it known that they kill overly inquisitive Inquisitors? Did anyone suspect that the sudden disappearance of that black templars ship was foul play?

If it was known, they'd have probably been declared traitoris excommunicatus a long time ago. I don't think there's any evidence to support the idea of this being a regular occurrence, and Inquisitors disappear all the time. Not so hard to hide when there's a big ass galaxy out there full of strange things.


Skimming through the codex though, Dark Angels and their successors are collectively known as "The Unforgiven" so that's common knowledge. Do other Imperial agents ever ask "hey, what's what the name? What are ya unforgiven for anyways?".

It says that, but it doesn't say who calls them that. I've always made the reasonable assumption that the 'Unforgiven' is just what they call themselves. But just like the Dark Angels that aren't Deathwing, the majority of the Marines in any of these Chapters wouldn't even know that. Why would they? So outsiders knowing even that title doesn't even seem plausible, wouldn't you say?

All I'm saying is, yes they do some suspicious things, but that's all it would appear to be to an outsider if they're careful about it. Hell, even their own Marines don't learn what's really going on until they're a trusted veteran.

I guess I don't see any reason other than a few rather isolated instances that would cast doubt upon them as long as the majority of their time is spent conducting themselves as other Chapters do.


Bonus Question: Whenever DA's and SW's meet up their champions have to fight, which side has won more often? Or do they never actually talk about that.

It is never talked about.

Gdolkin
02-12-2010, 00:18
Hang on.. What, in the first place, did they tell the Imperium about where their Primarch, planet and half the Legion had gone? "Um, some Night Lords and World Eaters did us over on their way to the Eye, it was awful man.."? "There was this warp storm, and it sucked up the Lion and Luther and half the Legion and most of Caliban"..?

Kudzu
02-12-2010, 00:36
Hmmm, I don't recall that ever happening. I do remember them winning the Battle of Macragge, pwning the Tyranids again at Ichar IV, holding the Imperium together after the Heresy, and having Horus be so scared of them he had to send them to the other side of the galaxy so he could feel safe. Among many, many other things.

1d4chan covers it best, so I'll just copy-paste highlights over for you.

012.M31-014.M31: The Horus Heresy. Almost half of all Space Marine legions betray the Emperor and turn to Chaos. The traitors lay siege to Holy Terra, and most of the Space marine legions suffer major losses. The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White scars are forced to make a stand on Terra while the Dark Angels lose their homeworld to renegade elements within their home planet, the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard are nearly destroyed, and the Emperor is crippled while battling Horus. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs. After the Heresy, Rowboat Girlyman created the Codex Astartes as we know it today, including the separation of the 10,000 strong legions into 1,000 strong chapters. Note that the Ultramarines didn't participate in the defense of Terra, didn't sustain crippling damage to their Chapter's manpower, and note that, best of all, when they arrived they were too late. The war was already won, yet their primarch still was the first to create the new rules.

723.M36: The 5th Black Crusade begins. Doombreed, a prince of Khorne declares war on the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

995.M40-000.M41 The Macharian Crusades. Lord Solar Macharius sets out to reconquer the Segmentum Pacificus for the Imperium. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

444.M41: First War for Armageddon. Chaos incursion led by Angron and World Eaters beaten back by Space Wolves and Grey Knights but only at a terrible cost. Only about a dozen of the grey knights survive the battle with Angron. The local planetary militia and the other citizens are mind-wiped, sterilized and put into work camps, to slave away for the rest of their short, miserable lives much to the horror of Logan Grimnar. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

742.M41 Damocles Crusade is launched against the Tau Empire due to the Imperium's ever growing Xenophobia, a small, strategically insignificant piece of nothingness, inhabited by weak fish people with minimal Faster-Than-Light Technology. The Ultramarines are thoroughly defeated along with the rest of the Imperial forces.

745.M41: First Tyrannic War. Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks the Ultramarines' homeworld, Macragge. Most of the chapter is eaten by Nids and lost their entire 1st company, the Chapter's company of hardened veterans and Terminators. The second fight they get and they still blew it, lulz.

901-912.M41 Badab War. The Astral Claws, Lamenters, Executioners, and Mantis Warriors chapters rebel against the Imperium, and are defeated by loyalist chapters. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

5999.M41: Warmaster Abaddon launches the 13th Black Crusade. The armies of Chaos Undivided lay siege primarily to Cadia but attack many of the surrounding worlds as well. Imperial Forces launch a massive counterattack, and eventually push back the tides of Chaos, but only just barely, and at great cost. The Space Wolves' 13th Company are amongst the forces seen fighting against the forces of chaos. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

TheDarkDaff
02-12-2010, 00:42
What is this fallen thing?

Why didn't the dark angels reach terra in time?

Whats going on!?

I'm trying to decide if you are poking fun at DA players, trolling or just don't know.

OT - I doubt that outsiders know much about the Fallen. But it wouldn't make too much of a difference now as every chapter has Marines that have fallen to Chaos, the DA just are a little bit more through in self policing.

Most of the Dark Angels successors know about the Fall and it is hinted that Ezekiel is central to any member of the Unforgiven being raised to the inner circle (regardless of chapter). Azreal is also the only person that currently has access to Luthor which hints at the ties between the Unforgiven being alot closer than they should be (my personal inference is that Marines sometimes move between these chapters which would allow for one of the other Chapter Masters to replace Azreal when he dies as Grandmaster of the Dark Angels). But i remember something about one successor chapter that don't know anything about the Fallen. They are extremely similar to the Dark Angels in how stubborn they are but they are a codex chapter. There was something about them being the Dark Angels that should be.

Charlie Scene
02-12-2010, 00:44
I do remember them winning the Battle of Macragge, pwning the Tyranids again at Ichar IV,

It wasn't a one-sided fight by any means, nor was it just the Ultras.


holding the Imperium together after the Heresy,

I'm sure one has the luxury of doing so when they take no part in the Heresy.


and having Horus be so scared of them he had to send them to the other side of the galaxy so he could feel safe. Among many, many other things.

He sent the Dark Angels and Space Wolves away as well. It was sound tactical thinking, not fear as motivation.

Londinium
02-12-2010, 00:45
You are aware that the Ultramarines are conviently located on the other side of the galaxy when most of that occurs because Ultramar is in fact on the other side of the galaxy to where most of those events happen. Being their base the Ultramarines are more likely to be fighting around the Eastern Fringes than they are to pop up by Cadia and Armaggedon. They're not as mobile as say the Imperial Fists and Dark Angels who are fleet based chapters, they have certain ties to their home region. That's not to say they never leave Ultramar and the Eastern Fringe but just that they're more likely to be operating in that region.

TheLaughingGod
02-12-2010, 00:53
1d4chan covers it best, so I'll just copy-paste highlights over for you...

lol. I'd quote this if I had room for it.

Hilarious insight into the Ultramarines.

Maybe the other chapters want to be just like them; sitting out all the important battles and staying safe.

Let's not forget that the battle for Orar's Sepulchure, the ENTIRE CHAPTER was available to show up and guard some stupid relic on some backwater.

So I mean, all 1000 Ultramarines weren't busy? What do they DO? I somehow doubt that you could get all 1000 Dark Angels or Space Wolves or every single Black Templar together for some minor conflict, if not because they were simply already engaged in other battles across the galaxy.

But apparently the Ultras are either A) Not doing anything. B) Willing to pull out of theaters of battle to guard some dead guy's stuff. Either way, they're unreliable warriors. At least when the Dark Angels go off and do other stuff, it's to KILL ******* CHAOS MARINES.

Ultramarines: They just stand around.



You are aware that the Ultramarines are conviently located on the other side of the galaxy when most of that occurs because Ultramar is in fact on the other side of the galaxy to where most of those events happen. Being their base the Ultramarines are more likely to be fighting around the Eastern Fringes than they are to pop up by Cadia and Armaggedon. They're not as mobile as say the Imperial Fists and Dark Angels who are fleet based chapters, they have certain ties to their home region. That's not to say they never leave Ultramar and the Eastern Fringe but just that they're more likely to be operating in that region.

Interesting that after the Heresy Guilliman decides to keep his homebase as far away from the Eye of Terror as possible, isn't it?

Lord_Crull
02-12-2010, 08:09
1d4chan covers it best, so I'll just copy-paste highlights over for you.


Oh, 4chan? you mean the site filled with exaggerations and lies? I'll do my best to break it down.


1d4chan covers it best, so I'll just copy-paste highlights over for you.

012.M31-014.M31: The Horus Heresy. Almost half of all Space Marine legions betray the Emperor and turn to Chaos. The traitors lay siege to Holy Terra, and most of the Space marine legions suffer major losses. The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White scars are forced to make a stand on Terra while the Dark Angels lose their homeworld to renegade elements within their home planet, the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard are nearly destroyed, and the Emperor is crippled while battling Horus. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs..

Yes, because Horus deliberately ordered them to the other side of the galaxy because he feared their warmaking capacity. He even sent the Word Bearers to hold them up.


After the Heresy, Rowboat Girlyman created the Codex Astartes as we know it today, including the separation of the 10,000 strong legions into 1,000 strong chapters..

Actually it was breaking up 10,000 strong legions into multiple 1,000 strong chapters to better cover the Imperium. In fact Guilliman may have actually increased the number of Marines depending in which version of the fluff you read.


Note that the Ultramarines didn't participate in the defense of Terra, didn't sustain crippling damage to their Chapter's manpower, and note that, best of all, when they arrived they were too late. The war was already won, yet their primarch still was the first to create the new rules.


Actually it was the Ultramarines who held the Imperium together in the Scouring. You know, the event where they made up half the Marines in the field. the war was one, but there was a long bloody clean up that had to be performed.



723.M36: The 5th Black Crusade begins. Doombreed, a prince of Khorne declares war on the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


Actually you don't know that. We don't know what chapters where involved in the 5th Black Crusade.

In fact given that the Ultramarines have a company stationed at the Eye of Terro most of the time I would say they where actually there.



995.M40-000.M41 The Macharian Crusades. Lord Solar Macharius sets out to reconquer the Segmentum Pacificus for the Imperium. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


Actually no Marine chapters participated in the Macharian Crusade. And 100 Chapters participated later in putting it down. the Ultramarines could have been easily part of them.



444.M41: First War for Armageddon. Chaos incursion led by Angron and World Eaters beaten back by Space Wolves and Grey Knights but only at a terrible cost. Only about a dozen of the grey knights survive the battle with Angron. The local planetary militia and the other citizens are mind-wiped, sterilized and put into work camps, to slave away for the rest of their short, miserable lives much to the horror of Logan Grimnar. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


The Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, White Scars, Iron Hands, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc, etc are all conveniently located elsehwere.;)

Do you see the problem with this logic?



742.M41 Damocles Crusade is launched against the Tau Empire due to the Imperium's ever growing Xenophobia, a small, strategically insignificant piece of nothingness, inhabited by weak fish people with minimal Faster-Than-Light Technology. The Ultramarines are thoroughly defeated along with the rest of the Imperial forces.


Actually no, the Tau Codex records the Imperial forces having to withdraw due to Hive fleet Kraken and that the Marines were among the ones that did damage to the Tau. They were hardly ''defeated throughly''.

That's also ignoring the Ziest Crusade, where an Ultramarine led force pushed back the Tau expansion almost single-handedly.:rolleyes:



745.M41: First Tyrannic War. Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks the Ultramarines' homeworld, Macragge. Most of the chapter is eaten by Nids and lost their entire 1st company, the Chapter's company of hardened veterans and Terminators. The second fight they get and they still blew it, lulz.


Both of these are flat out lies. Only the first company was lost, not most of the chapter. And they won at Ichar IV, breaking Hive fleet Kraken.

Both of those have always been presented as mighty victories for the Ultramarines.



901-912.M41 Badab War. The Astral Claws, Lamenters, Executioners, and Mantis Warriors chapters rebel against the Imperium, and are defeated by loyalist chapters. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.


The Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, etc, etc, are all conveniently located elsewhere.



5999.M41: Warmaster Abaddon launches the 13th Black Crusade. The armies of Chaos Undivided lay siege primarily to Cadia but attack many of the surrounding worlds as well. Imperial Forces launch a massive counterattack, and eventually push back the tides of Chaos, but only just barely, and at great cost. The Space Wolves' 13th Company are amongst the forces seen fighting against the forces of chaos. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.

Actually this is again a flat-out lie. The Ultramarines Honor Company was involved in the Eye of Terror boarding and destroying the Planet Killer.

Eye of Terror Vol. 1. Humanity's Shield


Ten thousand years ago. in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, Roboute Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines, decreed that his chapter would stand ready to oppose the Traitors that fled to the Eye of Terror should they ever return to plague the Imperium. The Ultramarines took no part in the Battte of the Emperor's Palace, as they were fighting half a galaxy away, and Guilliman was determined that his chapter would never find itself unable to respond to such a threat again.

The solution was to ensure a continuous presence in the vicinity of the Eye of Terror, by maintaining an honour guard made up of individual squads from different companies. In time, the chapter's commitments across the Imperium necessitated that the other Primogenitor chapters - the second founding successors of the Ultramarines, should also provide squads.

For the last ten thousand years this guard has maintained a presence at the Cadian Gate, standing firm alongside the other chapters stationed there to challenge any Black Crusade that threatens Cadia's defences. At the outset of the 13th Black Crusade, the force is comprised almost entirely of Ultramarines squads, alongside which stand a number of detachments from the chapter's successors. The honour guard has already seen action in a number of engagements, notably the Defence of Narsine and the Sarlax Reprisals, lending the legendary courage and honour of the Ultramarines and their kin to the defence of the Cadia Gate.

Let me ask you this, have you ever actually read any Ultramarines fluff from the sources itself? Half the stuff you posted is ethier exaggerations, outright lies, or just vague where the Ultramarines where fluffwise. 4chan is really not a good source at all.


It wasn't a one-sided fight by any means, nor was it just the Ultras.


I don't think I ever claimed otherwise. But the Ultramarines did win both of those conflicts and they hardly lost most of the Chapter like the passage erronously claims. Perhaps pwning is a bit of an exaggeration, but the Battle of Macragge is always presented as a mighty victory for the Ultramarines in the fluff.



I'm sure one has the luxury of doing so when they take no part in the Heresy.


And then the Scouring came, where the Ultramarines were spread all over the galaxy to hold the crumbling Imperium together. The Deathwatch RPG even states that without Guilliman's Legion the Imperium would not have survived it's first century. How exactly is that a bad thing?

Oh, and about the Heresy that's technically not true. They fended off the Word Bearers at Calth (Despite the Word Bearers having the complete elements of suprise, billions upons billions of daemons, and employing geo-nuclear strikes)



He sent the Dark Angels and Space Wolves away as well. It was sound tactical thinking, not fear as motivation.

Fear that inspired motivation. Notice he sent the Ultramarines further away.

I'm not calling Horus a coward. I'm not saying Guilliman intimidated him. Don't get me wrong. But realistically the Ultramarines posed more of a threat since they where the largest legion. Plus the Wolves were probably depleted after Prospero anyway.

It's always been presented in the fluff to my knowledge that Horus sent Guilliman away because the Ultramarines would have made his plans impossible if they were at Terra.



Let's not forget that the battle for Orar's Sepulchure, the ENTIRE CHAPTER was available to show up and guard some stupid relic on some backwater.


It was hardly a stupid relic on a backwater world. A huge Eldar army attacked the tomb of a chapter hero.


So I mean, all 1000 Ultramarines weren't busy? What do they DO?

Possibly resupplying and requipping? Coming back from a recent warzone that required an entire Chapter to deploy? I can think of several reasons.

In fact need I remind you the Wolves dispatched almost their entire Chapter to guard the Spear of Russ (A valued Chapter relic) from the Thousand Sons. Essentially doing the same thing as the Ultramarines. But I don't see anyone accusing then of being incompetent.



I somehow doubt that you could get all 1000 Dark Angels or Space Wolves or every single Black Templar together for some minor conflict, if not because they were simply already engaged in other battles across the galaxy.


Given that the Eldar army was big enough to contain an Avatar as well as pushing an entire Chapter to the limit I would hardly call that conflict minor. I don't think it was ever presented as anything other than a major battle.

Plus, once again you don't know what they where doing.



But apparently the Ultras are either A) Not doing anything. B) Willing to pull out of theaters of battle to guard some dead guy's stuff. Either way, they're unreliable warriors. At least when the Dark Angels go off and do other stuff, it's to KILL ******* CHAOS MARINES.


No, you don't know what the Chapter was doing at the time, they could have been assumbled close at hand in a nearby warzone for all you know. You have no proof at all they withdrew from anywhere. They could have actually be finishing up in a warzone for all you know.

I mean, do I really have to pull out the Ziest, Black Reach, Malbede, Second War for Armageddon, Balur Crusades, etc, etc? You know, the long, long list of victories that the Ultramarines have.



Interesting that after the Heresy Guilliman decides to keep his homebase as far away from the Eye of Terror as possible, isn't it?

Actually the Ultramarines had Ultramar before the heresy. (You know, like most Chapters retained their homeworlds and stayed there.) He never claimed it after the Heresy. And it's even noted in the Index Astartes article in White Dwarf that Guilliman permemantly put a company at the EOT.

Eye of Terror Vol. 1. Humanity's Shield


For the last ten thousand years this guard has maintained a presence at the Cadian Gate, standing firm alongside the other chapters stationed there to challenge any Black Crusade that threatens Cadia's defences. At the outset of the 13th Black Crusade, the force is comprised almost entirely of Ultramarines squads, alongside which stand a number of detachments from the chapter's successors. The honour guard has already seen action in a number of engagements, notably the Defence of Narsine and the Sarlax Reprisals, lending the legendary courage and honour of the Ultramarines and their kin to the defence of the Cadia Gate.

shadowhawk2008
02-12-2010, 13:46
Good break down Crull... good solid reply.

And just as a general aside, not all chapters are always involved in conflicts that take place far away from their home bases. Fleet-based chapters such as the Imperial Fists, Dark Angels, Blood Ravens and others get around more but generally Chapter forces are deployed within their sphere of "control".

The Iron Snakes are based in the Reef Stars and there is currently only one recorded instance of them ever leaving the region and it was a strike force that assisted in the Sabbat Worlds Crusade. Which is not to say that they have not participated in others. Would they be considered to be incompetent because there is no recorded instance of them having participated in the Armageddon Wars or the Macharian Crusades or several other major events.

Same goes for the Blood Ravens. Most of their available fluff mentions them taking part in conflicts that occur along their recruitment routes.

Often planetary forces, naval commanders and others send out general requests for support. Whichever chapter gets the request generally sends out a strike force. Or they are requested by officials of the Administratum/Departmento Munitorum to assist in the conflicts.

Not all conflicts involve Space Marines. Period.

Lord Damocles
02-12-2010, 13:52
This is also the same guy who unleashed the Nightbringer, I wouldn't go around praising him that much.
You are aware that if the Ultramarines hadn't intervened, Kesharq and co. would have unleashed both the Nightbringer *and* the Bringer of Darkness anyway, right... :eyebrows:

shadowhawk2008
02-12-2010, 13:55
You are aware that if the Ultramarines hadn't intervened, Kesharq and co. would have unleashed both the Nightbringer *and* the Bringer of Darkness anyway, right... :eyebrows:

A point people often overlook. Without the intervention of the Ultramarines and specifically Uriel Ventris, the entire region and possibly the entire segmentum would be in much worse trouble.

The return of Nightbringer's ship would have most probably resulted in the awakening of thousands of sleeping necrons and waves of harvest fleets striking everywhere.

MagosHereticus
02-12-2010, 14:04
why do ultramarines get the credit for the battle of maccrage? the valiant commander of the Dominus Astra saved the ultramarines and their world from annihilation

Lord_Crull
02-12-2010, 14:08
why do ultramarines get the credit for the battle of maccrage? the valiant commander of the Dominus Astra saved the ultramarines and their world from annihilation

Because Calgar commanded the fleets and without his leadership and the Ultramarines courage there would be no world for the Dominus Astra to save.

The Dominus Astra was the finishing blow to the Tyranid fleet, yes. But It can't be denied the Ultramarines where a vital part of the defense and crucial to protecting Ultramar.

MagosHereticus
02-12-2010, 14:40
Because Calgar commanded the fleets and without his leadership and the Ultramarines courage there would be no world for the Dominus Astra to save.

The Dominus Astra was the finishing blow to the Tyranid fleet, yes. But It can't be denied the Ultramarines where a vital part of the defense and crucial to protecting Ultramar.

the majority of the defending was done by the the imperial fleet (including the naval defence assets and the poor merchantmen conscripted into service) i remeber reading that most of the sector fleet was lost in the battle and only the Dominus Astra's noble sacrifice won the day

the ground war was inconsequential and although the ultrafleet (;)) was mighty it is still dwarfed by a sector fleet

the war on the ground was only significant in that it kept the laser defence arrays operational

most of the heavy lifting and the victory blow was struck by the navy, the ultramarines helped but they did not carry the day

Lord_Crull
02-12-2010, 14:49
the majority of the defending was done by the the imperial fleet (including the naval defence assets and the poor merchantmen conscripted into service)

They were? I don't recall reading that at all. Calgar was in command for most of the battle right up intil the Segmentum Battlefleet arrived at Circe towords the end.


i remeber reading that most of the sector fleet was lost in the battle and only the Dominus Astra's noble sacrifice won the day


What about Calgar's manuvers tearing huge chunks out of the Tyranid fleet and holding them until the Segmentum Fleet could arrive?

In fact one of the reasons why the Hive fleet was forced from Macragge's orbit and made to retreat to Circe was because of Calgar's leadership and attacks.



most of the heavy lifting and the victory blow was struck by the navy, the ultramarines helped but they did not carry the day

No, most of the heavy lifting was not done by the Navy. The Segmentum fleet only arrived near the end of the battle. Up until then it was all Calgar. In fact the Segmentum fleet arrived as the Tyranid fleet was retreating twords Circe. There is nothing in any account I have read that said the Navy was doing most of the work. In fact going by the Marine Codex. Index Astartes: Defenders of Macragge, it's implied that's it's the other way around. In 4th Edition Codex Tyranids it's even said that Calgar gained the upper hand and forced the Tyranid fleet from Macragge to Circe. The Segmentum Battlefleet arrived to seal the fate of the Tyranid fleet, but Calgar already had them on the run by both Tyranid and Ultramarine accounts.

In all versions of the battle (Including the 4th edition Tyranid Codex) it's always been presented as the Ultramarines being vital.

As far as I can tell the 5th Edition Codex is the only one that presents it as anything close to your version, but even then it follows roughly the same series of events as the other sources, abiet tailored to make the Tyranids sound better.

bluemage
02-12-2010, 15:41
Anyways enough of this ultramarines stuff. If people really want to understand the main reason players dislike the ultramarines, look at the 1d4chan ultramarines page. Sure not everything is accurate and a lot of it is misleading, but its still a great summary for why people don't like them.

Lord_Crull
02-12-2010, 16:24
Anyways enough of this ultramarines stuff. If people really want to understand the main reason players dislike the ultramarines, look at the 1d4chan ultramarines page. Sure not everything is accurate and a lot of it is misleading, but its still a great summary for why people don't like them.

I an fully aware of why people dislike them. I was merely responding to the assertion that the Ultramarines ''missed or lost every major battle in Imperial History''.

bluemage
02-12-2010, 16:47
@Lord Crull Ah sorry.

Anyways back on topic I doubt many high lords know what happened with the dark angels. I remember reading some where that only the Emperor and current grand master know that the Lion is still alive. And the whole story is only know by members of the deathwing and I doubt its something they actively talk about between themselves. They also have no reason to have ever shared that information with anything outside their chapter and successor chapters.

spetswalshe
02-12-2010, 17:22
Heh... Rowboat Girlyman. I bet that's what he called himself when he put on a wig and headed out to the Space-NAAFI bar.

I do think it's a bit silly saying that the Ultramarines can be blamed for not being involved in certain cherry-picked major battles of the last 10,000 years. There are only 1000 of them, after all. I'm sure someone could pull up a list of every major battle that the Imperial Fists were completely absent for, too.

It's a pretty weak newspaper headline;

SPACE WOLVES 'NOT PRESENT' DURING DAMOCLES CRUSADE; FILTHY XENOS LOVERS OR JUST PLAIN COWARDS? Inside; Rampant Speculation About How They Were Too Busy Making Homosexual Passes At Necrons To Bother Turning Up. With Quotes From Troops On The Ground;

"I didn't see nuthin' about no Space Wolfs, me. I did 'ear that the sarge saw a big ole Space Marine in a fursuit gropin' a metal feller when 'e was on R&R back in Terseus Ultra, but ter be honest they's known for dressin' up funny out there and the sarge had a bit of drink in 'im."


While I myself am against the always fashionable Ultra-bashing, you really killed the quality of your post with the need to belittle other chapters to make your point.

Belittling is rather the point of these arguments, as is shown by how many people give 1d4chan to 'support' their side (it's a funny site, but that's like using the Daily Mail to back up your argument). And it's fully in theme with the Ultramarines, as my post was intended to be.

Kudzu
02-12-2010, 17:51
Actually, you guys have given shining examples of my favorite thing about 40k fluff-- it's all in how you spin it.

Were the Ultramarines sent away from Terra because Horus feared them, or was it because he knew they would be dumb enough to fall for it? Did Guilliman save humanity by breaking up the legions and putting the High Lords in charge, or is he a traitor to the Emperor's vision (The big E obvious had the legions be that big for a reason...) and a direct cause to the decline humanity has seen? Etc, etc, etc.

Depending on how you look at any given situation anything can be true and we'll never know for sure one way or the other. I love it! The only thing holding you back from finding the craziest, most Byzantine plot is the limits of your imagination-- even the source books are written with an acknowledged bias which helps in adding an air of "Ok, what are they hiding, what really happened..."

Lord_Crull
02-12-2010, 18:00
Were the Ultramarines sent away from Terra because Horus feared them, or was it because he knew they would be dumb enough to fall for it?

Actually Horus openly states to Regulus in Galaxy in Flames that the Ultramarines needed to be tied up at Calth or else his plans would fail.

Galaxy in Flames


Regulus turned to leave and Erebus said, 'We have waited a long time for this day, Lorgar will be exultant.'
'Lorgar has his own battles to fight, Erebus,' replied Horus sharply. 'Should he fail at Calth, all this will be for nothing if Guilliman's Legion is allowed to intervene. Save your celebrations for when I sit upon the throne of Terra.'

This is Horus openly admitting to his closest advisors that Guilliman must be occupied.

And why would Guilliman refuse such an order? It's from Horus, the beloved Warmaster. (Keep in mind he has not yet made his treachery quite yet.) Russ and the Lion both followed similar orders to get them out of the way as well.


Did Guilliman save humanity by breaking up the legions and putting the High Lords in charge,

Other way around actually. Insignium Astartes states that it was Guilliman that was charged by the High Lords to create the Codex. Guilliman probably did not create the High Lords (Who were stated to be formed partially from the Council of Terra)


(The big E obvious had the legions be that big for a reason...)

Actually, given the varied sizes and organizations of each Legion it's doubtful the Emperor cared about their organization that much.

The size and organization of the Death Guard differs when compared to the Thousand Sons or the Ultramarines or the Space Wolves. There does not seem to be any kind of standard organization for the Legions really, beyond what each Primarch decided. (In fact Guilliman might have not even done that much. Different Chapters with differing traditions and names appear in The First Heretic and in Fallen Angels. The First Heretic has most of the Word Bearers Legion split into Chapters across the galaxy, save for rare occasions.)

Kudzu
02-12-2010, 18:22
Way to miss the entire point Crull. That's one amazing talent you have.

Drasanil
02-12-2010, 18:26
It's true the Ultra's are totally awesome and legit, just take a look at these quotes.


On the heresy:

"I may be one of the greatest of primarchs, warmaster, Imperium destabilizing traitor, embodiment of the ruinous powers. Yet even I have to admit that my dear brother Guilliman is clearly superior in every way. Hell... I specifically orchestrated the events of this treason so that the Ultramarines are on the other side of the galaxy. Why? Not because I knew they'd trounce us all within mere moments - which they would - but because the entire purpose of my actions was to weaken the Imperium just enough so that my brother, o prestigious Guilliman, could impose his superior ideology over our brethren. I knew I could never live up to his name, so I gave it up all for him, for you, my brother!"


"This wouldn't be a problem if Horus was an Ultramarine. You know it's true."

On why the tyranids attacked Macragge:

"In truth, Hive Fleet behemoth attacked ultramar because the Tyranid Hive mind wanted to become an Ultramarine and accept Roboute Guilliman as it's spiritual liege and Chapter Master Calgar as it's temporal master. When it was turned down, it attacked in hopes of consuming Ultramarine geneseeds to become one of us...but deep down it knew that it could never become an Ultramarine."

On why Eldrad died at the end of the EoT campaign:

"Eldrad Ulthran voluntarily sacrificed himself to Slaanesh, for he had finally foreseen that even had they struggled for all eternity, the Eldar would never be the equals of Ultramarines, nor could they ever fully grasp the glorious legacy of Roboute Guilliman. Any torment She Who Thirsts could conceive would pale in comparison to living with this horrible truth, and in the end, maybe Slaanesh would take pity on the Eldar since she, too, shares the pain of never being able to reach the shining peak of superiority that are the true Sons of Guilliman."

And lets not forget Matt Ward's own words...


"Indeed, it was Guilliman who would have the greatest lasting effect upon the now leaderless Blood Angels. Through the Codex Astartes - that great treatise on the restructuring and ordering of the Space Marines - Guilliman's legacy would reshape the Blood Angels Legion into the Chapters that defend the Imperium to this day."


"[The Ultramarines] are one of the hardest working chapters out there... The Ultramarines are the most focused, proficient, and tactically aware force in the galaxy..."


"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

spetswalshe
02-12-2010, 18:31
Wow. Ward really doesn't come across as the kind of cynical moral abomination that should be writing 40k.

Lord_Crull
02-12-2010, 18:45
Way to miss the entire point Crull. That's one amazing talent you have.

No, you would have a point if those things were presented in any other way then they were in the fluff.

Take the Lion for example, you could interpret him as a loyalist or traitor. Wheras with say the mustering of the Ultramarines at Calth, it's always presented as a loyal brother following his Warmaster's orders then getting stabbed in the back in all the sources I have ever read on that.

There is a difference between interpretation and things that are flat-out stated in all sources. Some things could be interpreted, but other things can't really.

Wakerofgods
02-12-2010, 18:53
I'm trying to decide if you are poking fun at DA players, trolling or just don't know.


I just don't know.

Someone said something about it since though, half of the dark angels and their leader turned to chaos?

nagash66
02-12-2010, 18:57
PEOPLE this is a thread about DARK ANGELS.

Please ether make a new thread on Ultramarine's ( which i will be more then happy to join) or STOP posting about it here.

Most of you should be adults try to remember that and act like it.

Lord_Crull and Kudzu ether take it to PM or make a new thread.

I know derailing can be fun ( i have done it myself) but remember each thread has a purpose and talking about the smurfs has nothing to due with this threads purpose.

Charlie Scene
02-12-2010, 19:02
I don't think I ever claimed otherwise. But the Ultramarines did win both of those conflicts and they hardly lost most of the Chapter like the passage erronously claims. Perhaps pwning is a bit of an exaggeration, but the Battle of Macragge is always presented as a mighty victory for the Ultramarines in the fluff.

Er.. yeah, you did. You claimed that the Ultramarines "pwned" them. Now, you may be unaware of what that word actually means, but it does not suggest a fierce and roughly fair battle.


And then the Scouring came, where the Ultramarines were spread all over the galaxy to hold the crumbling Imperium together. The Deathwatch RPG even states that without Guilliman's Legion the Imperium would not have survived it's first century. How exactly is that a bad thing?

Again, it's not something they did alone. Other Legions, even those that were reduced in number, fought to hold the Imperium together. The difference is the Ultramarines were already the largest Legion - and did the very least during the Heresy.

You seem to be missing the point. They protected their own territory from the Word Bearers via plot-armor and then did nothing else during the most important moment of the Imperiums history. They were a non-factor.

Also, a little tidbit - it's implied that Horus lowers his shield to challenge the Emperor personally, as he fears that the Lion and Russ are closing in. It's also those two Legions that ride in like the cavalry and help chase the traitor forces into the eye.

The Ultramarines show up when the dust settles - did they help hold the Imperium together? Sure. Did they miss the battle that could of ended the Imperium altogether? Yes.


Oh, and about the Heresy that's technically not true. They fended off the Word Bearers at Calth (Despite the Word Bearers having the complete elements of suprise, billions upons billions of daemons, and employing geo-nuclear strikes)

"Billions" of demons? I'd like to see that source if you don't mind.


Fear that inspired motivation. Notice he sent the Ultramarines further away.

.. Because they're the largest Legion.


I'm not calling Horus a coward. I'm not saying Guilliman intimidated him. Don't get me wrong. But realistically the Ultramarines posed more of a threat since they where the largest legion. Plus the Wolves were probably depleted after Prospero anyway.

The Wolves were depleted, because Horus manipulated Russ into attacking Magnus. Remember, it's mentioned that the Space Wolves were created for the purpose of killing another Legion should it come to that - they're far more of a threat to Horus than the Ultramarines.


It's always been presented in the fluff to my knowledge that Horus sent Guilliman away because the Ultramarines would have made his plans impossible if they were at Terra.

It would have been impossible if the loyalists had Russ and the Lion as well, and they were fighting at reduced strength. It's their imminent arrival that makes Horus take the gambit of lowering his shields.

Guilliman would of had a big impact - but he didn't. He was a non-factor when he was needed most. That's his failing.

Israfael
02-12-2010, 19:06
Take the Lion for example, you could interpret him as a loyalist or traitor.

If you had read Descent of Angels, Fallen Angels and Angels of Darkness, you would see that this really isn't the case anymore.

While it was made really grey early on, it's been explored in-depth, and shows that it was indeed the betrayal of Luther that tainted the Legion, and that the Lion was absolutely loyal.

While I understand the point you were attempting to make, on this note, you're mistaken.

Lord_Crull
02-12-2010, 19:09
Er.. yeah, you did. You claimed that the Ultramarines "pwned" them. Now, you may be unaware of what that word actually means, but it does not suggest a fierce and roughly fair battle.


I believed I already stated I may have exaggerated a bit.



Again, it's not something they did alone. Other Legions, even those that were reduced in number, fought to hold the Imperium together. The difference is the Ultramarines were already the largest Legion - and did the very least during the Heresy.


Except the Ultramarines were stated to make up half of the Marines in the field during the Scouring. They held the most lines and covered the most ground and pushed themselves. It's implied they were doing the most during the Scouring.

IA Ultramarines.


The enemies of Mankind, sensing the weakness of the Imperium, prepared to attack, but Roboute Guilliman vowed that the Emperor's realm would not fall and took it upon himself to hold it together. He despatched his Legion throughout the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, holding the fragile Imperium together through a time of great danger. Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field.

I don't know about you, but it sounds to me like they did alot during the Scouring.



You seem to be missing the point. They protected their own territory from the Word Bearers via plot-armor and then did nothing else during the most important moment of the Imperiums history. They were a non-factor.


Actually no. they immidetly went to Terra and were recorded as destroying one of Horus's rebel fleets on the way to Terra. In Visons of Death the Ultramarines were listed as one of the Legions right after the Angels and the Wolves coming to Terra. It's even stated they were mere hours away on Pg. 42.

In fact they were considered a great factor as in the next paragraph after that Horus is described as worrying about them as well as the Dark Angels and the Wolves.

They hardly sat around on Ultramar doing nothing while the Seige went on, like you seem to imply.



The Ultramarines show up when the dust settles - did they help hold the Imperium together? Sure. Did they miss the battle that could of ended the Imperium altogether? Yes.


And what's your point exactly? I don't see how that changes the fact that Horus is repeatedly described as sending the Ultramarines away because they were a threat.



"Billions" of demons? I'd like to see that source if you don't mind.


Actually that's a speed typo. I meant cultists. I'll pull up the citation in a jiffy.

IA Word Bearers


The Ultramarines were stunned by the millions of cultists the Word Bearers used as human shields and disgusted by the hordes of daemons unleashed as shock troops.

I was actually thinking of something else while typing, that sorry.



The Wolves were depleted, because Horus manipulated Russ into attacking Magnus. Remember, it's mentioned that the Space Wolves were created for the purpose of killing another Legion should it come to that - they're far more of a threat to Horus than the Ultramarines.


Except at the moment Horus issued those orders the Ultramarines were the greatest threat to Horus. Look at my previous post. Horus flat out states to his advisors that if Guilliman is allowed to get to Terra his plan will fail.

Galaxy in Flames.


Regulus turned to leave and Erebus said, 'We have waited a long time for this day, Lorgar will be exultant.'
'Lorgar has his own battles to fight, Erebus,' replied Horus sharply. 'Should he fail at Calth, all this will be for nothing if Guilliman's Legion is allowed to intervene. Save your celebrations for when I sit upon the throne of Terra.'

The Wolves were already a spent force at the time due to Prospero. The Wolves may be fine for killing a Legion, but I doubt that they alone can take on nine Traitor Legions, especially with their depleted numbers.

In fact shortly after Prospero the Wolves were ambushed by the Alpha Legion and took some heavy losses according to Visions of Death. Russ himself states that his fleet alone could not probably defeat the Alpha Legion fleet and that he needed the Khan's fleet. However the Kahn is unable to come and Russ is forced to withdraw.

In fact later on near the end of the seige it's stated in Visions of Death that the Wolves on their own ''pose no threat to him alone''. Horus is evev stated as believing Guilliman's Legion is the largest and most powerful in Visions of Death. Horus puts the threat of the combined Legions as the greatest priority and then the Ultramarines and the Dark Angels and them the Wolves as last. Going by the passage on pg. 42 he seems to fear the Wolves least of all.

The Wolves may have been intended to be an Executioner Legion, but after Prospero it's clear from Visons of Death that Horus considered them a lesser threat.



It would have been impossible if the loyalists had Russ and the Lion as well, and they were fighting at reduced strength. It's their imminent arrival that makes Horus take the gambit of lowering his shields.

Guilliman would of had a big impact - but he didn't. He was a non-factor when he was needed most. That's his failing.

Actually Visions of Death has the Ultramarines coming shortly after Russ and the Lion I believe. Horus is actually recorded as being quite worried over them because they are ''hours away'' according to PG. 42 of Visions of Death. They are presented as anything but a non-factor.

But that does not change the fact that Horus sent away the Ultramarines because they were a grave threat to his plans.


If you had read Descent of Angels, Fallen Angels and Angels of Darkness, you would see that this really isn't the case anymore.

While it was made really grey early on, it's been explored in-depth, and shows that it was indeed the betrayal of Luther that tainted the Legion, and that the Lion was absolutely loyal.

While I understand the point you were attempting to make, on this note, you're mistaken.

Apologies then, I'm not a Dark Angels expert. Thanks.

Bergen Beerbelly
02-12-2010, 19:40
I just read Codex Ultramarines and Codex Angels of Death from the 2nd edition of the game.

I didn't run across anything that said the Ultramarines or the Dark Angels have the purest Gene-Seed.

But what it does say is that the Adeptus of Earth favor the Gene-Seed of the Ultramarines more than any other.

I think part of that is because Roboute Guilliman is one of the origional High Lords of Terra. So of course they would use the Ultramarine gene seed more.

TheDarkDaff
02-12-2010, 21:00
I just don't know.

Someone said something about it since though, half of the dark angels and their leader turned to chaos?

Brinlliant then. Let me give you a quick run down of the Dark Angels history (others feel free to correct me if i am wrong).

The Fallen refers to the part of the Dark Angels legion that was left on Caliban during the great crusade. The Lion sent his great friend and second in command Luthor to Caliban to oversee the legions recruitment. The position didn't suit Luthor at all and he corrupted the the Dark Angels under his command through his skill at oratory and chaos sorcery. After the rest of the Fleet returns to Caliban after the seige of Terra the defenders open fire on them (this is ordered by Chapter Master Astellan) and the Lion's fleet withdraws to find out what has happened. After they find out they proceed to bomb the planets to the point of the planet surface is cracked apart. The lion then leads an assault on the Tower of Angels which is the main fortress monastry. He fights Luthor in a duel but after he knocks Luthor down he can't bring himself to kill his old friend. Luthor unleashes a blast of chaos energy that knocks the Lion on his back. The Lion struggles to stand up and Luthor finally sees his betrayal of the Imperium, the Dark Angels and his best friend and his mind breaks. The Chaos Gods see another of their plans fail and unleash a powerful warp storm that rips Caliban to pieces and throws the traitor Dark Angels (the Fallen) through out space and time. Finally the Loyal Dark Angels land on the asteroid that is left of Caliban that was protected by the fortress void shields. All they find amongst the wreckage is Luthor rocking back and forth saying "the watchers took him away, he will forgive me" over and over again.

The asteroid is fitted with warp drives which becomes the Rock and the Dark Angels masters decide that the only way they can atone for the sins of the legion are to track down every single Fallen Dark Angels and make them repent or absolve them of their sin which generally kills them.

Only apon entering the Deathwing do Dark Angels find out about the fallen though many members of the Deathwing are scattered throughout the chapter (only Tech-marines can't really become Deathwing due to their split loyality to Mars). Ezikeil tests each prospective member of the inner circle's to make sure they are pure before they are allowed to find anything out. Only the Grandmaster of the Dark Angels knows that Luthor is still alive in the Rock and he is the only person allowed to interrogate him (i believe the Sword of Secrets acts as the key to Luthor's chamber). Nobody except maybe the Emporer knows that the Lion is in an unreachable chamber on the Rock being looked after by the watchers in the dark.

Sorry for the wall of text.

Bergen Beerbelly
02-12-2010, 23:01
Brinlliant then. Let me give you a quick run down of the Dark Angels history (others feel free to correct me if i am wrong).

The Fallen refers to the part of the Dark Angels legion that was left on Caliban during the great crusade. The Lion sent his great friend and second in command Luthor to Caliban to oversee the legions recruitment. The position didn't suit Luthor at all and he corrupted the the Dark Angels under his command through his skill at oratory and chaos sorcery. After the rest of the Fleet returns to Caliban after the seige of Terra the defenders open fire on them (this is ordered by Chapter Master Astellan) and the Lion's fleet withdraws to find out what has happened. After they find out they proceed to bomb the planets to the point of the planet surface is cracked apart. The lion then leads an assault on the Tower of Angels which is the main fortress monastry. He fights Luthor in a duel but after he knocks Luthor down he can't bring himself to kill his old friend. Luthor unleashes a blast of chaos energy that knocks the Lion on his back. The Lion struggles to stand up and Luthor finally sees his betrayal of the Imperium, the Dark Angels and his best friend and his mind breaks. The Chaos Gods see another of their plans fail and unleash a powerful warp storm that rips Caliban to pieces and throws the traitor Dark Angels (the Fallen) through out space and time. Finally the Loyal Dark Angels land on the asteroid that is left of Caliban that was protected by the fortress void shields. All they find amongst the wreckage is Luthor rocking back and forth saying "the watchers took him away, he will forgive me" over and over again.

The asteroid is fitted with warp drives which becomes the Rock and the Dark Angels masters decide that the only way they can atone for the sins of the legion are to track down every single Fallen Dark Angels and make them repent or absolve them of their sin which generally kills them.

Only apon entering the Deathwing do Dark Angels find out about the fallen though many members of the Deathwing are scattered throughout the chapter (only Tech-marines can't really become Deathwing due to their split loyality to Mars). Ezikeil tests each prospective member of the inner circle's to make sure they are pure before they are allowed to find anything out. Only the Grandmaster of the Dark Angels knows that Luthor is still alive in the Rock and he is the only person allowed to interrogate him (i believe the Sword of Secrets acts as the key to Luthor's chamber). Nobody except maybe the Emporer knows that the Lion is in an unreachable chamber on the Rock being looked after by the watchers in the dark.

Sorry for the wall of text.

Yup, thats it...at least according to the 2nd edition Angels of Death codex.

Vaulkhar
03-12-2010, 00:27
It's worth noting that even without their tendency to go chasing Chaos Marines, the Dark Angels have a reputation for being taciturn and operating at arm's length from their alleged allies.

To illustrate: During their intervention in the Siege of Vraks - a five day battle that saw four companies deployed with Azrael in command and led to the wrecking of Vraks' starport - the Dark Angels sent exactly one transmission to the Guard forces conducting the siege:

"By the Emperor's will, Vraks starport destroyed. Mission accomplished".

Interestingly, there is no indication that anyone considered this to be unusual or even noteworthy behaviour.

MagosHereticus
03-12-2010, 03:33
They were? I don't recall reading that at all. Calgar was in command for most of the battle right up intil the Segmentum Battlefleet arrived at Circe towords the end.



What about Calgar's manuvers tearing huge chunks out of the Tyranid fleet and holding them until the Segmentum Fleet could arrive?

In fact one of the reasons why the Hive fleet was forced from Macragge's orbit and made to retreat to Circe was because of Calgar's leadership and attacks.



No, most of the heavy lifting was not done by the Navy. The Segmentum fleet only arrived near the end of the battle. Up until then it was all Calgar. In fact the Segmentum fleet arrived as the Tyranid fleet was retreating twords Circe. There is nothing in any account I have read that said the Navy was doing most of the work. In fact going by the Marine Codex. Index Astartes: Defenders of Macragge, it's implied that's it's the other way around. In 4th Edition Codex Tyranids it's even said that Calgar gained the upper hand and forced the Tyranid fleet from Macragge to Circe. The Segmentum Battlefleet arrived to seal the fate of the Tyranid fleet, but Calgar already had them on the run by both Tyranid and Ultramarine accounts.

In all versions of the battle (Including the 4th edition Tyranid Codex) it's always been presented as the Ultramarines being vital.

As far as I can tell the 5th Edition Codex is the only one that presents it as anything close to your version, but even then it follows roughly the same series of events as the other sources, abiet tailored to make the Tyranids sound better.

the intervention fleet was not from battlefleet ultramar, battlefleet ultramar was present from the get go and if at full strength would have outnumbered the ultramarine fleet at a minimum of 5 to 1 (with about the same ratio of capital ships) for some reason they are called the ultramar defense fleet, but that must be a colloquial name for naval sector fleet as the ultramarines are not allowed to command guard or naval assets

the orbital defence assets are described as being put in place shortly before the arrival of the tyranid fleet, ordinarily weapons platforms are crewed by naval personnel and in this case the navy had to shore up the defences with their own supplementary facilities

additionally the battle was far from over once battlefleet tempestus arrived, considering that the tyranids still outnumbered the combined imperial fleets and only the sacrifice of an emperor class battleship saved the day

this is the same sort of absurdity as saying the spartans saved greece from xerxes armies, actually the athenians did most of the work, their fleet alone being doing almost all the heavy lifting

the only way to circumvent this conclusion is if the ultramarines are ultrahypocrites and have completely disobeyed the codex astrates and were manning all the naval assets of the sector or alternatively the chapter needed little to no external help at all making the threat of hive fleet attacks laughable

Israfael
03-12-2010, 03:50
It's worth noting that even without their tendency to go chasing Chaos Marines, the Dark Angels have a reputation for being taciturn and operating at arm's length from their alleged allies.

To illustrate: During their intervention in the Siege of Vraks - a five day battle that saw four companies deployed with Azrael in command and led to the wrecking of Vraks' starport - the Dark Angels sent exactly one transmission to the Guard forces conducting the siege:

"By the Emperor's will, Vraks starport destroyed. Mission accomplished".

Interestingly, there is no indication that anyone considered this to be unusual or even noteworthy behaviour.

I think for the most part, the Imperium just doesn't care.

When you have chapters like the Marines Malevolent, and Flesh Tearers, who murder imperial citizens casually - or chapters who have blatant mutations, such as the Space Wolves or Minotaurs; it becomes pretty clear as to why they never really look too deep into the Dark Angels just being taciturn and unapproachable.

TheLaughingGod
03-12-2010, 04:21
I think for the most part, the Imperium just doesn't care.

When you have chapters like the Marines Malevolent, and Flesh Tearers, who murder imperial citizens casually - or chapters who have blatant mutations, such as the Space Wolves or Minotaurs; it becomes pretty clear as to why they never really look too deep into the Dark Angels just being taciturn and unapproachable.

I always thought it was funny that even though the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves are obviously mutants, and practically on the way to becoming possessed warp-spawned sorcerors, everyone assumes that the Dark Angels are the Chaos worshipping traitors, and get this: because a Chaos Marine said so

As far as Chapters go, the Dark Angels are one of the LEAST suspicious Astartes. Even the Ultramarines have their own mini-Empire (which is kinda supicious)
and the Blood Angels/Wolves are outright mutants

kardar233
03-12-2010, 06:22
I don't know about you, but it sounds to me like they did alot during the Scouring.

Yes, but if they had been helping the big fight during the Heresy the other Legions wouldn't have been so crushed and then they wouldn't have needed to do all the work in the Scouring to make up for all the boots the other Legions were trying to fill.


Also, pet peeve: It's a lot. ~EDIT~ Read this for more: http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html

nagash66
03-12-2010, 08:11
and the Blood Angels/Wolves are outright mutants

What sort of Mutation do the Blood Angels have? If you mean the Black Rage/Red Thirst that is not a mutation but the psychic imprint of the death of Sanguinius.

In fact i dont think theres anything actually wrong or degraded about the BA genessed, its simply a case of them being cursed with their fathers death memory's.

Israfael
03-12-2010, 08:40
What sort of Mutation do the Blood Angels have? If you mean the Black Rage/Red Thirst that is not a mutation but the psychic imprint of the death of Sanguinius.

In fact i dont think theres anything actually wrong or degraded about the BA genessed, its simply a case of them being cursed with their fathers death memory's.

Well, the sons of Sanguinius do gain a taste for blood, which seems to be another negative side effect of their gene-seed. That, and the successor chapter Angels Sanguine, refuse to remove their helmets in the presence of anyone outside their chapter - which you could argue is because of some "vampire" themed mutation.

LexxBomb
03-12-2010, 09:18
don't forget their fangs... heck even the new space hulk included a sergent with fangs exposed

Lord_Crull
03-12-2010, 10:25
the intervention fleet was not from battlefleet ultramar, battlefleet ultramar was present from the get go and if at full strength would have outnumbered the ultramarine fleet at a minimum of 5 to 1 (with about the same ratio of capital ships)

Where are you getting that information from? I don't recall any numbers stated at all about the Ultramarine fleet. The Ultramar Defense Fleet and the Ultramarine fleet would have been the same since the former was PDF under their leige lords command.


but that must be a colloquial name for naval sector fleet as the ultramarines are not allowed to command guard or naval assets


Actually they are allowed to command PDF. This is mentioned in the Chapter Master entry of the Codex. Local system defense PDF fleet assets show up in Chapter's Due, Enforcer, the Cain Books, and more.

Oh, and they may not be allowed to command fleet assets. But the Ultramarines can work with non-PDF fleet assets just fine. I'm assuming in a battle any Navy commanders would have the goode sense to cooperate and follow Calgar's plan. (Seeing as how this is his world and he is noted as one of the finest tacticans in the Imperium.)



the orbital defence assets are described as being put in place shortly before the arrival of the tyranid fleet, ordinarily weapons platforms are crewed by naval personnel and in this case the navy had to shore up the defences with their own supplementary facilities


Again, where are you getting this from? I don't recall reading about how orbital defence assets where put in place before the arrival of the Tyranid fleet, indeed, IA: Defenders of Macragge states that Macragge was merely protected by orbital defense lasers. It makes no mention of when they were put in. (Which it would make sense that a Space Marine homeworld is permenantly fortifed.) it does mention that those lasers were ''static''. I don't recall any fluff stating that weapons platforms are crewed by the navy.



additionally the battle was far from over once battlefleet tempestus arrived, considering that the tyranids still outnumbered the combined imperial fleets and only the sacrifice of an emperor class battleship saved the day


However without Calgar pushing them to Circe the trap would have probably never been sprung. That still does not change the fact that the Ultramarines fleet held on for a good while, forced the Tyranid fleet from Macragge and was responsible for trapping the Tyranids. Your claim that the intervention fleet did most of the heavy work is false.


this is the same sort of absurdity as saying the spartans saved greece from xerxes armies, actually the athenians did most of the work, their fleet alone being doing almost all the heavy lifting


Actually no. First of all that's a gross historical exaggeration. (Which of the many Greek-Persian conflicts are you talking about?) The Spartans certainly saved Greece at Palatea, for example.

Secondly that does not equal at all to the situation of the battle of Macragge, where the Ultramarines had already engaged and outmanuvered the Tyranids in Space in orbital warfare. The Spartans engaged the Persians only on land and under certain circumstances while the Athenians defeated the Persian fleet. The Ultramarines meanwhile engaged the Tyranids both in land and on space and pushed the Tyranid fleet to Circe according to the Marine Codex, and battered them quite badly.

It's a completely different strategic context in a completely different style of warfare against a completely different enemy. I assure you, despite certain pop culture depictions (300 for example) the Persians were a civilised Empire, not ravenous super-bugs.


the only way to circumvent this conclusion is if the ultramarines are ultrahypocrites and have completely disobeyed the codex astrates and were manning all the naval assets of the sector

You appearantly have never heard of PDF fleet assets have you? System defense fleets exist and are mentioned several times in fluff. (Enforcer, Courage and Honor, Ciaphas Cain). The Astartes, as rulers of Ultramar, would naturally command these assets. The Codex allows Marines to command PDF of their world.

You are also pretty much ignoring the conclusion that the Ultramarines could have simply been cooperating with any outside non-PDF naval assets.]


Yes, but if they had been helping the big fight during the Heresy the other Legions wouldn't have been so crushed and then they wouldn't have needed to do all the work in the Scouring to make up for all the boots the other Legions were trying to fill.


I'm sure the Ultramarines would have gladly helped their brother legions if they could. But they could't because of Horus tricking them.

Bergen Beerbelly
03-12-2010, 16:09
Lets not forget that Roboute Guilliman himself at one time commanded the entirety of the Imperiums military might. And this is after the Heresy. So that includes ALL of the navy fleets in the entire imperium.

Israfael
03-12-2010, 17:07
Out of curiosity, what do Ultramarines have to do with this thread?

"What does the Imperium know about the Dark Angels?"
"Man, Ultramarines are so cool."
"Er, what?"

MagosHereticus
03-12-2010, 17:07
Where are you getting that information from? I don't recall any numbers stated at all about the Ultramarine fleet. The Ultramar Defense Fleet and the Ultramarine fleet would have been the same since the former was PDF under their leige lords command.

system defence ships are not warp capable and are never greater than escort size, the ultramar defence fleet was composed of heavy cruisers, warp capable ships of a capital ship weight, these a solely the preserve of the navy


Actually they are allowed to command PDF. This is mentioned in the Chapter Master entry of the Codex. Local system defense PDF fleet assets show up in Chapter's Due, Enforcer, the Cain Books, and more.

are these capital ships though? ships of real worth in naval battles? i very much doubt it


Oh, and they may not be allowed to command fleet assets. But the Ultramarines can work with non-PDF fleet assets just fine. I'm assuming in a battle any Navy commanders would have the goode sense to cooperate and follow Calgar's plan. (Seeing as how this is his world and he is noted as one of the finest tacticans in the Imperium.)

the calgar masturbation is unnecessary, but the ultramarines are renown for their ability to actually work with the munitorium and its subbordinate organisations which is probably why ultramarine seccessors are the best choice from the perspective of the high lords of terra, but that doesnt mean that efforts of the navy can be hand waved because your favourite was in command




Again, where are you getting this from? I don't recall reading about how orbital defence assets where put in place before the arrival of the Tyranid fleet, indeed, IA: Defenders of Macragge states that Macragge was merely protected by orbital defense lasers. It makes no mention of when they were put in. (Which it would make sense that a Space Marine homeworld is permenantly fortifed.) it does mention that those lasers were ''static''. I don't recall any fluff stating that weapons platforms are crewed by the navy.

try to find the battle fleet gothic magazines, and the BGF rulebook talks about who provides crew for orbital defence assets



However without Calgar pushing them to Circe the trap would have probably never been sprung. That still does not change the fact that the Ultramarines fleet held on for a good while, forced the Tyranid fleet from Macragge and was responsible for trapping the Tyranids. Your claim that the intervention fleet did most of the heavy work is false.

was calgar flying through space super man style punching the hive ships with his humongous fists? no, that is ridiculous, he lead a fleet (which contained a nominal number of space marines ships and many navy ships) which was able to force the initial attack wave to withdraw but the tyranids themselves were laying the trap and had greater than 200 ships ready to envelop and overwhelm calgar beyond the safety of his orbital defences, it was only the timely arrival of a segmentum battlefleet that carried the day, unless you are suggesting that the 200 reinforcing vessels stood idly by and watch calgar personally kill the entire fleet which considerably outnumbered the imperials even after the reinforcements arrived



Actually no. First of all that's a gross historical exaggeration. (Which of the many Greek-Persian conflicts are you talking about?) The Spartans certainly saved Greece at Palatea, for example.

the spartan contribution would have been largely inconsequential if the athenians had not repeatedly fought to prevent both persian sea incursions and prevent the persian armies being able to resupply via the sea


Secondly that does not equal at all to the situation of the battle of Macragge, where the Ultramarines had already engaged and outmanuvered the Tyranids in Space in orbital warfare. The Spartans engaged the Persians only on land and under certain circumstances while the Athenians defeated the Persian fleet. The Ultramarines meanwhile engaged the Tyranids both in land and on space and pushed the Tyranid fleet to Circe according to the Marine Codex, and battered them quite badly.

the tyranids were not forced to circe, unless the space marine book is serving up more ridiculous revisionism, the tyranids had disgorged a huge ground force onto macragge and pulled back so that they could overwhelm the space fleet beyond the protective cover of the naval defences


It's a completely different strategic context in a completely different style of warfare against a completely different enemy. I assure you, despite certain pop culture depictions (300 for example) the Persians were a civilised Empire, not ravenous super-bugs.

considering that the battle of macragge drew inspiration from the Battle of Thermopylae im thinking you are being far to concrete in your thinking




You appearantly have never heard of PDF fleet assets have you? System defense fleets exist and are mentioned several times in fluff. (Enforcer, Courage and Honor, Ciaphas Cain). The Astartes, as rulers of Ultramar, would naturally command these assets. The Codex allows Marines to command PDF of their world.

system defence fleets include system ships and defence monitors, small escort sized vessels incapable of warp travel, though the keep pirates at bay they are not real fleet assets (a bloody waste of points if you ask me)


You are also pretty much ignoring the conclusion that the Ultramarines could have simply been cooperating with any outside non-PDF naval assets.


no, i am saying exactly as much, you are the one stating that non ultramarine forces were not significant factors, just because the cooperated with the ultramarines does not mean that they lose the right to fair credit, kryptmann choose macragge as the place to hold because he needed every advantage he could get to defeat the hive fleet, and the cost was terrible as battle fleet tempestus was severely crippled


Out of curiosity, what do Ultramarines have to do with this thread?

"What does the Imperium know about the Dark Angels?"
"Man, Ultramarines are so cool."
"Er, what?"

ultrafanboys tend to ruin everything

Lord_Crull
03-12-2010, 17:29
system defence ships are not warp capable and are never greater than escort size, the ultramar defence fleet was composed of heavy cruisers, warp capable ships of a capital ship weight, these a solely the preserve of the navy


What are you talking about? I don't recall reading anywere that cruisers were the sole preserve of the Navy at all or that the PDF defense fleet was limited to non warp-capable ships.

Warp-capable ships appear in the hands of civilians in Eisenhorn, cruiser sized warp capable system defense ships appear in Skull Harvest, Chapter's Due, the Cain books and Enforcer.

And Heavy cruisers are not capital ships. That's battleships and battlecruisers.



are these capital ships though? ships of real worth in naval battles? i very much doubt it


If you have ever read Battlefleet Gothic you would know that capital ships are not the only ships of worth in battle. Indeed, Crusiers are considered the workhorses of the Navy. Read the Macharius war books.



the calgar masturbation is unnecessary, but the ultramarines are renown for their ability to actually work with the munitorium and its subbordinate organisations which is probably why ultramarine seccessors are the best choice from the perspective of the high lords of terra, but that doesnt mean that efforts of the navy can be hand waved because your favourite was in command


First of all there is no Calgar masturbation. It's what stated in the fluff Calgar is noted repeatedly in several Codices to be one of the best tacticans and strategists in the Imperium. And I don't recall ever giving the Navy the short end of the stick or handwaving them at all.

Don't put words in my mouth.

Calgar is stated in the 2nd and 4th edition Codices to have the same role as he did in the 5th edition account. I am simply giving due credit where credit is due. Him pushing back the Tyranids to Circe is present int he past editions, it's not a 5th edition invention.



try to find the battle fleet gothic magazines, and the BGF rulebook talks about who provides crew for orbital defence assets


I do, and I can't seem to find that.



was calgar flying through space super man style punching the hive ships with his humongous fists? no, that is ridiculous,

Good thing I never stated that.


he lead a fleet (which contained a nominal number of space marines ships and many navy ships) which was able to force the initial attack wave to withdraw but the tyranids themselves were laying the trap and had greater than 200 ships ready to envelop and overwhelm calgar beyond the safety of his orbital defences,

Actually according to the Marine Codex it was the Tyranids who retreated them after Calgar badly bloodied them. This has been the same ever since Second Edition.


it was only the timely arrival of a segmentum battlefleet that carried the day, unless you are suggesting that the 200 reinforcing vessels stood idly by and watch calgar personally kill the entire fleet which considerably outnumbered the imperials even after the reinforcements arrived


No, I never suggested that. And there is still no evidence that it was the renforcement that that did most of the heavy work or carried the day soley.



the spartan contribution would have been largely inconsequential if the athenians had not repeatedly fought to prevent both persian sea incursions and prevent the persian armies being able to resupply via the sea


Putting aside that the situation is completely different to the Battle of Macragge, (And I'm once again asking you which Greek-Persian conflict are you talking about. ther are several) that still does not compare to the fact that Calgar already had the Tyranids on the run.



the tyranids were not forced to circe, unless the space marine book is serving up more ridiculous revisionism, the tyranids had disgorged a huge ground force onto macragge and pulled back so that they could overwhelm the space fleet beyond the protective cover of the naval defences


Actually the Marine version is the the version that's always been. It's the 5th edition Tyranid codex that retconned things into a trap. Before in the 4th Edition Tyranid Codex, the 4th Edition Marine codex, and the Second Edition Marine Codex it's always been Calgar driving the nids back after bloodying the hive fleet. Even in the 4th Edition Tyranid Codex it already states that Calgar got the advantage and forced them to Circe.

If anything the 5th edition Tyranid Codex is the revisonist one.



considering that the battle of macragge drew inspiration from the Battle of Thermopylae im thinking you are being far to concrete in your thinking


They may draw some inspiration, but the strategic and tactical methods of warfare and the operation of the battle is vastly, vastly different than Bronze-age warfare.



no, i am saying exactly as much, you are the one stating that non ultramarine forces were not significant factors,

I never stated that. Don't put words in my mouth. I took offense to your seeming assertion that the Ultramarines did not play a major role.


just because the cooperated with the ultramarines does not mean that they lose the right to fair credit,

They have fair credit. But they did not do most of the work, nor did they do more than the Ultramarines's efforts. Forgive me, but you seem to be belitting the Ultramairnes efforts here. In adiiton you seem to be ignoring the various other codices I seem to have stated.



ultrafanboys tend to ruin everything

No, we just use stuff like logic and facts.

Anyway pretty much the only reason why I'm here is to defend the Ultramarines against false statements. I am perfectly willing to transfer this to a PM.

SgtTaters
03-12-2010, 17:35
Well, the sons of Sanguinius do gain a taste for blood, which seems to be another negative side effect of their gene-seed. That, and the successor chapter Angels Sanguine, refuse to remove their helmets in the presence of anyone outside their chapter - which you could argue is because of some "vampire" themed mutation.

"I swear, by the emperor, I saw one of their faces. And he... he... he sparkled under the sunlight!!"
-last words of guardsman Jeffy, executed for being silly


Yes, I've always wondered how exactly the werewolf marines draw less suspicion than the mutant-free Dark Angels.

TheLaughingGod
03-12-2010, 17:44
"I swear, by the emperor, I saw one of their faces. And he... he... he sparkled under the sunlight!!"
-last words of guardsman Jeffy, executed for being silly


Yes, I've always wondered how exactly the werewolf marines draw less suspicion than the mutant-free Dark Angels.

Also remember that the Dark Angels are infamous for refusing to fight alongside xenos or abhumans. They're the very model of what a zealous Astartes should be. Azrael would NEVER have allowed a truce with Necrons or the Tau to evacuate a planet before virus bombing it.

Bergen Beerbelly
03-12-2010, 17:56
I find the whole idea of the Dark Angels being a space marine chapter silly anyway. They are based off of a poet from Great Britain, named Lionel Johnson.

I can see it now..Dark angels running around writing poems about how they cut themselves to make themsleves feel better...Emo marines for the win!

Israfael
03-12-2010, 17:59
I find the whole idea of the Dark Angels being a space marine chapter silly anyway. They are based off of a poet from Great Britain, named Lionel Johnson.

Why is poetry as a creative origin "silly", but using viking-werewolves, and aristically-gifted-vampires as a theme not?


I can see it now..Dark angels running around writing poems about how they cut themselves to make themsleves feel better...Emo marines for the win!

Oooh, I get it now, you're that guy.

Please explain how wanting to violently murder those who betrayed you is being "emo"..

Are the Imperial Fists emo as well then, as they use a "pain glove" to reinforce self-control and clear their thoughts? :eyebrows:

Bergen Beerbelly
03-12-2010, 18:06
I didn't say they weren't silly either. I think all three are silly.

Death Company
03-12-2010, 18:10
I didn't say they weren't silly either. I think all three are silly.

Thanks for sharing.

Bergen Beerbelly
03-12-2010, 18:16
If you guys take offense to that you need to lighten up. Just because someone cracks a joke at the space marines expense doesn't mean you have to get all upset about it.

Israfael
03-12-2010, 18:21
If you guys take offense to that you need to lighten up. Just because someone cracks a joke at the space marines expense doesn't mean you have to get all upset about it.

Yeah, because on the internet, people can easily tell your intent.

"Just dropping in to say your army is "emo" and "silly". Lets all have a good chuckle at my awesome joke guys. Ahuck ahuck."

nagash66
03-12-2010, 19:45
Yeah, because on the internet, people can easily tell your intent.

"Just dropping in to say your army is "emo" and "silly". Lets all have a good chuckle at my awesome joke guys. Ahuck ahuck."

Wait are you being serious now or not :p

/sarcasm

SgtTaters
03-12-2010, 20:41
I find the whole idea of the Dark Angels being a space marine chapter silly anyway. They are based off of a poet from Great Britain, named Lionel Johnson.

I can see it now..Dark angels running around writing poems about how they cut themselves to make themsleves feel better...Emo marines for the win!


It goes far deeper than just a guy feeling bad for himself and writing emo poetry, Lionel Johnson was a homosexual in 1800's U.K., and a devout Catholic (he converted from being protestant). That is a titanic burden right there.

It's believed that the poem "Dark Angel" was to express the feelings of his repressed homosexuality, how 'wrong' it felt, and the burden of carrying this secret hidden from all others, especially within the Catholic community.

Correlate being gay with falling to Chaos (both soul damning taboos in the settings they come from) and you have the drama of the Dark Angels Space Marines. It could have just started as a weird joke from Rogue Trader, but it's evolved into one of the most characterful elements in the 40k setting.

You can read the poem in full here
http://theotherpages.org/poems/johns01.html

Interestingly though, the role of the Dark Angel is not to hold back his secret desire, but what torments him.
some select lines from the poem...

DARK Angel, with thine aching lust
To rid the world of penitence:
Malicious Angel, who still dost
My soul such subtile violence!
...
Because of thee, no thought, no thing,
Abides for me undesecrate:
Dark Angel, ever on the wing,
Who never reachest me too late!
...
And all the things of beauty burn
With flames of evil ecstasy.
...
I fight thee, in the Holy Name!
Yet, what thou dost, is what God saith:
Tempter! should I escape thy flame,
Thou wilt have helped my soul from Death:
...
Because of thee, the land of dreams
Becomes a gathering place of fears:
Until tormented slumber seems
One vehemence of useless tears
....
Do what thou wilt, thou shalt not so,
Dark Angel! triumph over me:
Lonely, unto the Lone I go;
Divine, to the Divinity.


Here, the Dark Angel's role is that of the tormentor and tempter. Could this be read as insight on the truth behind the Dark Angels space marines? Or did GW reverse the position, where the Dark Angel exists to erase all evidence of sin from its history.

Drasanil
03-12-2010, 20:57
Also remember that the Dark Angels are infamous for refusing to fight alongside xenos or abhumans. They're the very model of what a zealous Astartes should be. Azrael would NEVER have allowed a truce with Necrons or the Tau to evacuate a planet before virus bombing it.

If Matt Ward writes the next DA codex though... We might have Azrael fighting alongside the Eldar and bedding Macha before they part honorably and swap warp-phone numbers:cheese:

Wakerofgods
04-12-2010, 20:58
Brinlliant then. Let me give you a quick run down of the Dark Angels history (others feel free to correct me if i am wrong).


Cool!

Thanks very much :D:D.