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feintstar
29-11-2010, 04:27
I know, the title is probably too intriguing to actually create a thread worthy of it, but I couldn't help myself.


Does anyone notice a strange re-interpretation of Mephiston since the new BA Dex? There is a line in the new fluff that goes something like "Unlocked the full potential of his gene seed," to which I immediately thought something along the lines of
"what a load of complete and utter rubbish. After all, aren't all Space Marines an unlocked potential of their Gene Seed? That's why they have S4 and T4 an I 4 ppl! Whatever were GW thinking when they made that the pitiful excuse for their ridiculous statline!"

But then something occurred to me which is equally ridiculous but utterly in keeping with everything that already exists in Background fluff: Suppose that a conventional Space Marine is a heterotype of both indigenous human and gene seeded DNA. "Unlocking the full potential" would therefore be a fully dominant geneseed expression - a phenotype that fully expresses those genes from th geneseed: Therefore:

Mephiston has the stats (+/- a few points of WS and a few special rules) of a Primarch.

This is not so far fetched. Sanguinius vs the Bloodthirster was an even battle at the gates of the Imperial Palace. Mephiston vs the Bloodthirster is a resonable match up even now, and then as now, the primarch would probably win dt better wargear amongst other things.

The statline of primarchs can be roughly guessed at as we have reasonable evidence that they are slightly superior to fully Warp-enhanced Chaos Space Marines. We can know this, because Luthor vs Lion El Johnson was also a roughly even combat. We also know that LEJ was second in combat and general prowess only to the Warmaster himself, at least in the Great Crusade season rankings table.

The fact that Mephiston's statline so vastly exceeds regular marines is not to be understated: We hear a great deal about by how much a Space Marine exceeds an Ordinary human - that's one point of S and T - Not Mephiston's excessive doubling. If this comes from 'unlocking his geneseed' rather than from his psychic prowess, then it can only be the primarch phenotype.

It has begun: Mephiston is a Darkly Shadowed Sanguinius reborn, first of the Primarchs to return, and we are indeed living in the End Times.

Son of Sanguinius
29-11-2010, 04:48
Hey, hey. Don't be voicing my conspiracy theory aloud.

My theory is Sanguinius' soul split when he died. The noble half empowers Azkaellon, who we now know as the Sanguinor. The fury driven half empowers Mephiston, albeit in an unconscious fashion.

EDIT: Oh, and for Terra's sake, don't use statlines to interpret background. Game balance throws that line of thinking off every time.

shadowhawk2008
29-11-2010, 04:49
Hey, hey. Don't be voicing my conspiracy theory aloud.

My theory is Sanguinius' soul split when he died. The noble half empowers Azkaellon, who we now know as the Sanguinor. The fury driven half empowers Mephiston, albeit in an unconscious fashion.

interesting.

Grok
29-11-2010, 05:38
EDIT: Oh, and for Terra's sake, don't use statlines to interpret background. Game balance throws that line of thinking off every time.
My thoughts exactly :p

cornonthecob
29-11-2010, 06:05
Azkaellion ?

I thought unlocking his potential was more of matt wards writing.

TheLaughingGod
29-11-2010, 06:14
Azkaellion ?

I thought unlocking his potential was more of matt wards writing.

Matt Ward is bad, but C:Blood Angels wasn't terrible. The fluff wasn't bad either, frankly. The only real issue was the Necron ceasefire.

Londinium
29-11-2010, 06:17
I like the idea although I do dispute your concept of the Primarch's power levels somewhat. It must be remembered that the Bloodthirster that Sanguinius fought at the Eternity Gate was Ka'Bandha King of the Bloodthirsters. The most powerful Bloodthirster in Khorne's service, he was not a normal bloodthirster and his stat line would put the 'thirsters you seen in 40k to shame. Thus you can't really extrapolate a comparision between Sanguinius vs a Bloodthirster and Mephisition vs a Bloodthirster.

Also Luther was beyond a normal possessed marine or Daemon Prince, the Chaos Gods had taken a personal interest in him. As judged by the warp storm that whisked the Fallen away they were obviously closely watching proceedings and had a personal role to play in Luther's corruption. Luther's warp induced stats would probably be far away from anything on the tabletop now. Furthermore I've never heard much about the Lion being a battlefield badass, he's certainly no Sanguinius, Fulgrim or Russ or even a Corax (post TFH) come to think about it.

So it's hard to use that bits of background to compare Mephisition to the powerlevel of a Primarch or Sanguinius himself. I personally take the Primarchs to be the eqivalent of the upper upper level 'named' Greater Daemons. Others on this forum take the view of them as little more than souped up marines that couldn't stand more than a few minutes against a Phoenix Lord. Each to their own.

Despite this I do like the idea of Mephisition being some kind of reborn Sanguinius or some kind of mortal vessel possessed by some element of Sanguinius' spirit.

Son of Sanguinius
29-11-2010, 06:18
Matt Ward is bad, but C:Blood Angels wasn't terrible. The fluff wasn't bad either, frankly. The only real issue was the Necron ceasefire.

That's very much still in dispute, Laughing God.

A lot of people don't like Sanguinor, the fact that two more Avatars died (in light of the fact that the Avatar is Warhammer 40k's Worf), the ennui that Dante suffers from, and the need to staple "blood" to every new weapon, just to name a few.

Son of Sanguinius
29-11-2010, 06:19
Also Luther was beyond a normal possessed marine or Daemon Prince, the Chaos Gods had taken a personal interest in him. As judged by the warp storm that whisked the Fallen away they were obviously closely watching proceedings and had a personal role to play in Luther's corruption. Luther's warp induced stats would probably be far away from anything on the tabletop now. Furthermore I've never heard much about the Lion being a battlefield badass, he's certainly no Sanguinius, Fulgrim or Russ or even a Corax (post TFH) come to think about it.

Let's not go there, Londinium. There is nothing to suggest that the Lion was inferior to any of the Primarchs you name, or any other for that matter, so let's not make this a versus thread.

Xisor
29-11-2010, 06:34
Sticking strictly to the facts (as it were), I think that it's exceedingly interesting to conjecture that Mephiston's current form represents a very well trained, psychically imbued (one imagines that not all of a librarian's psychic talents directly manifest as tabletop powers; many might simply augment their statline in the same way as an Astartes' implants don't have specific tabletop rules).

Which is to say, Mephiston is a rough approximation for a 'psychic Blood Angel Primarch', or at least, as you say, that not accounting for Mephiston's psychic doodahs, it's a good approximation of what Sanguinius was genetically capable of.

I'm happy with that hypothesis. It's interesting and, to my mind, strikes me as exactly the sort of thing Fabius Bile is working towards unlocking (amongst other things).
---

Caveat

There's alot of speculation as to the Emperor's creation of the Primarchs being not just about their genetics. He wasn't just humanity's premier genesmith. He was also an immense psychic and, if various Horus Heresy-era conspiracies are to be belived he variously:
- Poured large amounts and/or aspects of his own soul/being into the primarchs' own essences.
- Stole something from/reneged on a deal with the Chaos Gods in the creation of the Primarchs.

Ergo: The primarchs would be Mephiston plus something. That something could be almost anything, unfortunately, but it gives us a nice genetic minimum (assuming Sanguinius was capable of the not-a-power-requiring-dedicated-rules kind of psychic powers Mephiston presumably also uses) for which to assume Sanguinius was capable.

I approve.

Londinium
29-11-2010, 06:35
Let's not go there, Londinium. There is nothing to suggest that the Lion was inferior to any of the Primarchs you name, or any other for that matter, so let's not make this a versus thread.

I'm not making this a versus thread or anything of the sort. I was merely stating there's no evidence in the fluff that the Lion was particularly adept at combat compared to his brothers. He fights Russ to a standstill but that was after a long battle when Russ was infuriated at him and not thinking straight. The fluff surrounding him usually emphasises his number of victories and his tactical skill, he's portrayed very much like a dark flip side of Guilliman. While he may or may not have been a great combat Primarch, there is no evidence to suggest that he was. Thus you can't really say that Primarchs are only slightly superior to warp enhanced Space Marines like Luther based off the Lion's fight with Luther.

Also all Primarches were not born equal it's inevitable they had different strengths, Re:

Corax ripping Lorgar a new one on Istvaan V and Lorgar only being around to tell his story now because of the Night Haunter. Not all Primarchs were as good at combat as one and another.

Thus it makes it hard to compare Mephistion to the power levels of a Primarch because it depends entirely upon your view of the Primarchs and also the evidence you use.

feintstar
29-11-2010, 06:40
The story of the Lion and the Wolf makes it pretty clear that LEJ was Russ's equal.

And there is no evidence that Luthor is more special than Abbadon the Despoiler, who commands the eye to open and close, leads the Crusades, vanishes into fire and Brimstone when Eldrad kills him dead, and all the rest.

Point taken re stats vs story... I just can't help it in this particular case however. Mephiston is just so far above every other Space Marine in any codex ever, including Chaos Space Marines last edition.

There is no other Single Space Marine that has ever stood a pretty good chance against 6 Tau Broadsides on an open table with no terrain whatsoever and no backup. Not Deamon Princes, not the Sanguinor, not Dante, not anyone. Only something in the realm of a Primarch can take 6 shots from the highest statline weapons in the game and yet live.

Besides, the stats were an interpretation that came from reading the geneseed story. Maybe I should go back to that.

Or maybe any disagreements come from the different lenses through which we see the game: I think that the epic stuff from the background is the same epic stuff we see on the tabletop, others think that the 41st Millenium's Chaos is so much weaker than the 31st's.

Iuris
29-11-2010, 07:30
And there is no evidence that Luthor is more special than Abbadon the Despoiler, who commands the eye to open and close, leads the Crusades, vanishes into fire and Brimstone when Eldrad kills him dead, and all the rest.

Actually, there is. Luthor's refusal to kill the Lion angered the Chaos gods, so that his power was taken away, while Abaddon's power has been growing with time.

As for 31st millenium vs. 41st millenium, we might remember at least as of 2nd edition, we have chaos veterans, who were noted to include at least some actual HH veterans, with statlines that reflected simply more experienced marines. IE, they had millenia to get more skilled, but otherwise were marines.

Kirill
29-11-2010, 07:47
Interesting idea, I too support that Mephiston has become something like the Primarchs themselves would be, though I too would say he is missing something, that unquantifiable something that we all know exists in the Primarchs.
Like their sheer force of will, the ability to be such an incredible force in a room that everyone looks at them, that everyone is completely awe struck by them. It's the same when you see descriptions in the Horus Heresy series of The Emperor, you never see them say "He has long flowing brown hair and a bit of stubble, and his nose had clearly been broken several times" It's always "The light was shining from his form, like a beacon of hope and aspiring dreams, i had to look away, for the mere sight of him felt like it would drive me insane". I would say this is the same thing that involves their natural resiliance outside that of biology. They have something extra, beyond the realms of understanding and one could speculate on what this is, and how much of the Primarchs had within themselves compared to the beacon that The Emperor was, but I don't think that Mephiston has it in equal force that the Primarchs did.

As for The Lion, He's a magnificent fighter, as all Primarchs are, he is clearly the equal of Russ.


I'm not making this a versus thread or anything of the sort. I was merely stating there's no evidence in the fluff that the Lion was particularly adept at combat compared to his brothers. He fights Russ to a standstill but that was after a long battle when Russ was infuriated at him and not thinking straight. The fluff surrounding him usually emphasises his number of victories and his tactical skill, he's portrayed very much like a dark flip side of Guilliman. While he may or may not have been a great combat Primarch, there is no evidence to suggest that he was. Thus you can't really say that Primarchs are only slightly superior to warp enhanced Space Marines like Luther based off the Lion's fight with Luther.

Also all Primarches were not born equal it's inevitable they had different strengths

Thus it makes it hard to compare Mephistion to the power levels of a Primarch because it depends entirely upon your view of the Primarchs and also the evidence you use.


Firstly, The Lion had participated in that battle too. It's not like he suddenly whisked in from no where, Stole his kill and then they fought. They were Equals, and Russ is known for his prowess. More evidence can be taken from Decent of Angels, where the style of fighting within The Order had a firm base in Honorable duels, to say that The Lion wouldn't have trained and excelled in it would be like saying Russ lived with wolves, but didn't really become like one.
I would agree with you however that The Lion is presented as a shadowy Guilliman, albeit without the almost Obsessive-Compulsion to organization on a societal level and even military, to a certain extent, in a trade for the distrust of the shadows, real or perceived.
And i would also agree that you can't say that the Primarchs are equal to Chaos empowered marines. Luther wasn't a marine for a start and the way The Lion's emotions played on him would have presented a similar situation between Horus and The Emperor. Nor is Luther a good example of a typical "empowered champion" so any assumption made from the fight would be flawed.

Also, as you say, the Primarchs all varied of course, but i would say it's more in the nature of their fighting, rather than their innate power levels (that are probably over nine thousand). For instance, You could say that Corax would beat Russ, because Russ tends to be related to a berserk style, while Corax tends to be Shadows, distractions and ambushes, but you could say that Fulgrim's finesse would overcome the shadows and attacks of Corax, but that doesn't mean Fulgrim would be able to beat Russ and his trademark berserk flurry of blows, although that doesn't mean it's untrue. The Fighting style of the Primarchs is also a mirror of their personality. I would say they were born almost equal, but their upbringing and personalities denotes which would have an advantage in whatever situation.

Nazguire
29-11-2010, 07:54
I'd say Lion would be pretty good at slaying and smiting considering he was raised in a knightly order and taught to hit things until dead on a Chaos tainted death world until the the coming of the Emperor. Just because his tactical and strategic abilities are publicised more, doesn't mean he wouldn't be a frightening Primarch in battle.

Look at Corax. There isn't anything to assume he was an awesome fighter. He was touted as a guerilla warfare and stealth warfare planner and that was his specialty. Then all of a sudden comes The First Heretic and Raven's Flight and here we are...

TheLaughingGod
29-11-2010, 08:12
That's very much still in dispute, Laughing God.

A lot of people don't like Sanguinor, the fact that two more Avatars died (in light of the fact that the Avatar is Warhammer 40k's Worf), the ennui that Dante suffers from, and the need to staple "blood" to every new weapon, just to name a few.

Well, I dunno. The Sanguinor is kind of cool actually. He seems to be an Astartes Living Saint, which is a neat idea. The Avatar casualty count is a little bit ridiculous, but at least they don't make it stupid (I'll accept the Sanguinor can fight and win against an Avatar)

Dante's ennui is fine. Blood Angels were kind of boring before. They have this horrible curse but it's no big deal? yeah, that's boring. As far as the blood-weapons, the only one I can think of is the bloodfist (which is just a dreadnought ccw!) Space Wolves was a MUCH worse case of this. Notice the lack of Sanguinus Angelus on Dire bloodbat mount dual-wielding bloodclaws with bloodpelts and bloodfang talisman. You could make the point that Sanguinor is kind of "that guy" but it's a lot more subtle than say... Canis Wolfborn.

Edit: Also, LEJ wins at least twice against Russ. Once because Russ is an idiot and drops his guard, and once because Russ realizes he's an idiot and drops his guard. Since Russ was one of the greatest hand to hand Primarchs and couldn't get the best of the Lion, I think we can safely say the Lion was a formidable swordsman. I believe he also killed a Calibanite Lion. Which apparently is some sort of giant dragon-lion thing. That sounds like something you'd have to be a badass to do.

Edit edit: Oh, and before you say "Oh, well, Russ lost because he wasn't thinking clearly." The lore makes it clear that Russ is NEVER thinking clearly. He's infamous for just getting mad and rushing into things. The Lion triumphs over the Wolf, just accept it.

nagash66
29-11-2010, 08:30
Edit edit: Oh, and before you say "Oh, well, Russ lost because he wasn't thinking clearly." The lore makes it clear that Russ is NEVER thinking clearly. He's infamous for just getting mad and rushing into things. The Lion triumphs over the Wolf, just accept it.

Please don't write things like this which will just make this thread dissolve into a versus thread.

TheLaughingGod
29-11-2010, 08:40
Please don't write things like this which will just make this thread dissolve into a versus thread.

It's going there anyways.

I do actually really like the idea of the Geneseed having the Primarchs potential sealed away within it though. That's a pretty awesome idea.

nagash66
29-11-2010, 09:56
It's going there anyways.


Oh well then that makes it alright to do, good to know that once something has been done by others and even tho i know its not the right thing to do i should go ahead and do it anyhow...because hey THEY did it:rolleyes:.

Aiwass
29-11-2010, 11:37
I agree with the OP, there was more or less my initial thoughts (WFT? oh well, a primarch is reborn). Also is still crap fluff-wise is the only 'reasonable' option.

BTW the Sanguinor is pretty lame imo. A legendary gold-shiny space marine with blessings, who punches bloodthirsters and avatars in sight? No thanks. It's at the same level of the necron & blood angels super secret rainbow pony friends.

LexxBomb
29-11-2010, 11:46
wasn't there a series of blood angel novels dealing with a believed reincarnation of their primarch

dragonet111
29-11-2010, 11:51
The first two BA novels. Bad reading. Let's face the truce I'm a BA fanboy and those novels are really really bad.

shadowhawk2008
29-11-2010, 12:39
wasn't there a series of blood angel novels dealing with a believed reincarnation of their primarch

Deus Encarmine and Deus Sanguinius followed by Red Fury and Black Tide.

The first two novels can be quite taxing on one's patience but they are not too bad.

destroyerlord
29-11-2010, 13:46
I agree with the OP, in fact it was the first thing that I thought upon hearing of his crazy statline in the new rules. I haven't yet had an opportunity to read the new BA codex, but from everything I heard (and read on warseer) I figured he had somehow 'unlocked' some of Sanguinious' power, thereby making him comparable to a primarch. The fact that some people consider primarchs more powerful than anything currently seen on the tabletop has always confounded me. There are several tales of them battling greater daemons, which have tabletop rules. Somewhere in that ballpark seems about right.

massey
29-11-2010, 14:35
Well, I always took it that Mephiston is Space Dracula, so that's why he gets those stats. He's a Master Vampire, and has the strength of ten men (ten Space Marines, I guess), etc. And I like the idea that an ancient curse from the earliest days of man is still floating around out there, causing trouble.

Londinium
29-11-2010, 16:22
I agree with the OP, in fact it was the first thing that I thought upon hearing of his crazy statline in the new rules. I haven't yet had an opportunity to read the new BA codex, but from everything I heard (and read on warseer) I figured he had somehow 'unlocked' some of Sanguinious' power, thereby making him comparable to a primarch. The fact that some people consider primarchs more powerful than anything currently seen on the tabletop has always confounded me. There are several tales of them battling greater daemons, which have tabletop rules. Somewhere in that ballpark seems about right.

Except Greater Daemons do not have uniform power levels, which is something I was trying to get across. Ka'Bandha could kill a tabletop level Bloodthirster with little effort. The tabletop game is abstracted for balance and gameplay reasons, the fluff often shows a different picture.

Bonzai
29-11-2010, 16:30
Re: The Sanguinor

My initial take on him, was that he was a warp entity. The way the 40k universe works, if enough people feel, believe, or worship it, it creates a warp presence. The Imperial creed worships the Emperor as a god. What then of Sanguinus? His holy son, the golden Angel of the Emperor? Who protected his gate, and martyred himself for his father, the Emperor? Surely he must recieve some worship as well, and certainly more than any other primarch. Sort of like a Catholic Saint.

Fast forward 10,000 years, and all that psychic energy gathers and becomes sentient. As the Warp representation of Sanguinus, he of course becomes the Patron of the Blood Angels, and is able to appear when warp energies are strong. Like Daemon incursions, summoning an Avatar, Chaos Marine ships, etc....

my theory anyways.

dragonet111
29-11-2010, 17:10
Re: The Sanguinor

My initial take on him, was that he was a warp entity. The way the 40k universe works, if enough people feel, believe, or worship it, it creates a warp presence. The Imperial creed worships the Emperor as a god. What then of Sanguinus? His holy son, the golden Angel of the Emperor? Who protected his gate, and martyred himself for his father, the Emperor? Surely he must recieve some worship as well, and certainly more than any other primarch. Sort of like a Catholic Saint.

Fast forward 10,000 years, and all that psychic energy gathers and becomes sentient. As the Warp representation of Sanguinus, he of course becomes the Patron of the Blood Angels, and is able to appear when warp energies are strong. Like Daemon incursions, summoning an Avatar, Chaos Marine ships, etc....

my theory anyways.

I like it and I thought the same. After all Sanguinius is the only primarch who is worship throughout the Imperium.

Son of Sanguinius
29-11-2010, 17:13
Re: The Sanguinor

My initial take on him, was that he was a warp entity. The way the 40k universe works, if enough people feel, believe, or worship it, it creates a warp presence. The Imperial creed worships the Emperor as a god. What then of Sanguinus? His holy son, the golden Angel of the Emperor? Who protected his gate, and martyred himself for his father, the Emperor? Surely he must recieve some worship as well, and certainly more than any other primarch. Sort of like a Catholic Saint.

Fast forward 10,000 years, and all that psychic energy gathers and becomes sentient. As the Warp representation of Sanguinus, he of course becomes the Patron of the Blood Angels, and is able to appear when warp energies are strong. Like Daemon incursions, summoning an Avatar, Chaos Marine ships, etc....

my theory anyways.

It's not directly comparable to a Catholic saint, even if the imagery is directly drawn from the artistic interpretations of Christian beliefs. Catholics don't worship the saints directly- they ask saints, angels, and the like to intercede with God on their behalf. It's considered sacrilegious to worship anything aside from God.

I see the Church of the God-Emperor as functioning the same way. The one really being worshiped is the Emperor himself, where as figures like the Primarchs as request to intervene on the Emperor's behalf.

Londinium
29-11-2010, 18:19
There is an Imperium wide holiday specifically dedicated to Sanguinius though, other than the Big E I can't think of any other Imperial figure that has that prominence. The Sanguinala definitely seems to be a recognition of Sanguinius, rather than Sanguinius as an aspect of the Big E. In that case I don't see any problem with some kind of warp presence coalescing around the concept of Sanguinius, perhaps as a lesser part of the greater 'Emperor' warp entity. In the same way that you can subjugate Khaine to Khorne, you could probably subjugate Sanguinius to the Emperor.

Col. Tartleton
29-11-2010, 18:36
wasn't there a series of blood angel novels dealing with a believed reincarnation of their primarch

Yes, they appear to be the inspiration for the new Codex. They're retconned the details leaving that for an alternate universe sort of story. But Arkio is clearly the inspiration of the Sanguinor (but sanguinor isn't an actual demon) and Mephiston got raised to Heroic Primarch worthy status because he's got to be the toughest marine.

FabricatorGeneralMike
30-11-2010, 03:58
I agree with the OP, there was more or less my initial thoughts (WFT? oh well, a primarch is reborn). Also is still crap fluff-wise is the only 'reasonable' option.

BTW the Sanguinor is pretty lame imo. A legendary gold-shiny space marine with blessings, who punches bloodthirsters and avatars in sight? No thanks. It's at the same level of the necron & blood angels super secret rainbow pony friends.


I guess Bloody McBlood Blood, ran out of ideas. You can't have Mephys falcon punching avatars, that would make Calgar look bad. Can't have that now. Just remember even tho Mephy might be half of a primarch reincarnated, he still sits in his coffin on cold dark nights and wishes he could paint his armour blue....:shifty:

Sceriously tho, this codex has some of the worst fluff ever written. It's almost to the point of, The blood angels have a terrible secret to hide; they want to be Ultramarines....:angel:... sigh.

Aiwass
30-11-2010, 10:28
Agreed in all what you said, including about Kusanagi!

destroyerlord
30-11-2010, 11:59
Except Greater Daemons do not have uniform power levels, which is something I was trying to get across. Ka'Bandha could kill a tabletop level Bloodthirster with little effort. The tabletop game is abstracted for balance and gameplay reasons, the fluff often shows a different picture.

Good point, but that means Primarchs could conceivably appear with table top rules ranging anywhere from a space marine chapter master to FW greater daemon capabilities. So... What was my point again? Oh, that Mephiston could (possibly) represent Primarch level stats on the battle field. Or maybe not (as you point out).
I fail to see what you were trying to say in your reply. :(


There is an Imperium wide holiday specifically dedicated to Sanguinius though
This is cool, I didn't know that. Slightly off topic, but could Macharius have similar representation throughout the imperium? I don't know a lot about it, but he is the only character I can think of that would be that celebrated since the Primarchs all disappeared.

feintstar
30-11-2010, 13:25
Oooh you totally forgot Saint Sebastian Thor.

And perhaps Alicia Dominica. They get celebrated in vaguely religious societies of the imperium: Maybe mecharius gets celebrated in the more secular ones, and Saguinius gets recognition everywhere. Hell, probably even the wolves drink to him on that particular day from time to time.

Back on topic: Lord of the Bloodthirsters (I was not aware of this)... I am not sure how much he outstrips regular Blood thirster, I figure more like SM Chaptermaster exceeds regular marine: Equipment, attacks, wounds, init, Special rules. Then again I never saw rules on that forgeworld monstosity. I chose to believe the suggestion that "That's not a Bloodthirster, that's Khorne Himself!!!"

I'm not sure that upgrading the 'Thirster necessarily refutes the core of my argument though:

Unlocking the gene seed to me = full phenotypic expression of dead primarch DNA - cloning. I concur when everyone says that he's missing that special something of primarchiness, but I think that would pan out more with the idea that mephiston examplifies the basic, vanilla primarch before upgrades. Like a strange twist if fate gave him Blood Angel Librarian upgrades, instead of his rightful 'Emperor's Primarch' upgrade list.

Perhaps when Dante perishes defending the Imperial palce from the final Black Crusade, Mephiston will go to the Emperor and get rejigged with True Primarch upgrades.

Aiwass
30-11-2010, 13:33
I hope not...

LexxBomb
30-11-2010, 13:40
don't we now have a couple of BA characters having conquered the curse...
at least there are two:
Mephiston and the death company guy from Bloodquest...
I heard there was maybe two more...did I miss hear?

grayghost
30-11-2010, 13:55
I've always thought the Flaw was the key to the Blood Angels' greatness, as evidenced by Mephiston. Once they overcome the Flaw as a Chapter they could all unlock the same potential.

I like the Sanguinor/Warp Entity thought. That could also explain why the Inquisition is so suspicious of him (Him?).

Poseidal
30-11-2010, 14:40
Statwise, Mephiston is greater than a Primarch.

We have the stats of a Primarch in the game (albeit Apocalypse). If you subtract the difference between a DP and Chaos Lord, you get a reasonably guess to what an ungifted Primarch would be.

If I recall, the only stat that's higher than Mephiston's is Weapon Skill.

Night Bearer
30-11-2010, 15:47
Maybe only tangentially related, but this thread made me think of something.

Was reading the Dark Eldar codex the other day, and there's a blurb in there about how once upon a time the Space Wolves' recruits went missing during that Into The Wild experience they all have to go through after their initial genetic-implant stuff, and when the SW investigated, they discovered Dark Eldar camped out on a nearby world, and after chasing them off discovered basically a secret lab with tanks filled with the recruits.

It's implied, IIRC, that the haemonculi had been experimenting on them, and the blurb mentions that the recruits all had a disturbingly similar appearance to the SW primarch. I haven't reread it, but my knee-jerk reaction was that it seemed to be implying that the haemonculi were somehow trying to engineer primarch traits out of the recruits.

My point being, is it made me wonder if there is in fact some way of "unlocking" the primarch gene-seed out of regular Marine gene-seed, and if the latter is not a separate level of tech, but just the primarch genetics not fully expressed.

massey
30-11-2010, 16:52
Statwise, Mephiston is greater than a Primarch.

We have the stats of a Primarch in the game (albeit Apocalypse). If you subtract the difference between a DP and Chaos Lord, you get a reasonably guess to what an ungifted Primarch would be.

If I recall, the only stat that's higher than Mephiston's is Weapon Skill.

That's assuming being a Demon Prince gives a Primarch a stat boost. It might be closer to a Paladin/Anti-Paladin switch.

andyg2006
30-11-2010, 18:17
Not talking about statlines or general killy-ness, but just IMHO:
Essentially, different bits of Sanguinius are emerging in the heroes of the Chapter:

Dante gets some of the "self sacrificing" and the "Protect The Emperor" bit, through his hopes/visions about the final battle that he thinks is going to happen.

Lemartes got the "Get angry, get even/take them with me" bit of Sanguinius' personality from the Primarch's last battle.

Corbulo gets Sanguinius' general "foresight".

Mephiston sort of has the "vengeance-psychic" and "hope" traits of Sanguinius. If you go into the mechanics of what Daemon Princes are...mortals invested with superhuman powers from beyond realspace...I think he's basically what a 'Daemon Prince of Sanguinius' could/would turn out like.

Sanguinor strikes me as the "Primarch" (or leader/leadership) bit of Sanguinius because he's what a real exemplar of a Marine leader should be: utterly inspirational and a true 'champion', but he gets the troops to rally and accomplish great deeds for themselves, rather than just going 'round singlehandedly kicking in the face of every enemy he finds.

Astorath gets the "brotherly" (but also some of the "self-sacrificing") bit of Sanguinius as he does what no one else will do...not because they're not up to the job...but he selflessly takes on the burden and protects the rest of his Chapter from having to do what he does.

Just a few thoughts.

Bonzai
30-11-2010, 19:13
Statwise, Mephiston is greater than a Primarch.

We have the stats of a Primarch in the game (albeit Apocalypse). If you subtract the difference between a DP and Chaos Lord, you get a reasonably guess to what an ungifted Primarch would be.

If I recall, the only stat that's higher than Mephiston's is Weapon Skill.

Where would that be?

dragonet111
30-11-2010, 19:23
It's from the Angron Datasheet for Apoc - UK White Dwarf 344

FlashGordon
30-11-2010, 19:54
Come on.... its stats... for a game where every third space marine dies to normal weaponry...:rolleyes:

(And we all know mephiston is a Vampire Lord)

grayghost
01-12-2010, 01:42
Statwise, Mephiston is greater than a Primarch.

We have the stats of a Primarch in the game (albeit Apocalypse). If you subtract the difference between a DP and Chaos Lord, you get a reasonably guess to what an ungifted Primarch would be.

If I recall, the only stat that's higher than Mephiston's is Weapon Skill.

I figured the Chaos influence corrupted part of their gene-seed, keeping them on par with the loyal Primarchs.

FabricatorGeneralMike
01-12-2010, 04:33
My point being, is it made me wonder if there is in fact some way of "unlocking" the primarch gene-seed out of regular Marine gene-seed, and if the latter is not a separate level of tech, but just the primarch genetics not fully expressed.

The only problem with that is wouldn't the Emperor of tried doing this durning the Great Crusade? I mean if you could have LEGIONS of Primarch-eques marines wouldn't the Great Crusade of gone alot smoother? I think this is GW just trying to make the new DE fluff sound all mysterious and exotic. :angel:


Agreed in all what you said, including about Kusanagi!

Thank you. I've always loved the good Major, the manga just makes her all the more bad-a$$ =o]

madd0ct0r
01-12-2010, 04:48
Perhaps it's linked to the mass evolution towards psykerhood humanity itself is going through?

Corvussanctus
01-12-2010, 09:19
Well...we all know that the space marines were created with the leftovers of the primarch-experiment. So with enough knowlegde of genetics, wizardy and a lot of time you could reverse-engineer a Primarch from the geneseed of their chapters.
It could take millienia, but i have the bad feeling that some Admech Genetors who watch about the geneseed take some of their work home to do 'a little research'.

Snapplekid50
01-12-2010, 13:08
Whose Azkaellon?

Idaan
01-12-2010, 13:29
Come on.... its stats... for a game where every third space marine dies to normal weaponry...:rolleyes:
It's for Apocalypse where they don't have to be bothered by balance, viability, points costs, scale or anything. Well, except for matching the fluff. See the Imperator Titan for details.


That's assuming being a Demon Prince gives a Primarch a stat boost. It might be closer to a Paladin/Anti-Paladin switch.Why would that be? Fluff speaks of them being elevated to Daemonhood, not receiving a different paintjob and calling it a day. If anything, Chaos would offer them even bigger boost for becoming Daemon Princes just to make it viable. Angron for instance had to build kilometer tall obelisks and sacrifice thousands to Khorne just to keep him anchored in reality on Armageddon.

dragonet111
01-12-2010, 14:00
He was the last survivor of the Sanguinary Guard. Sanguinius asked him to stay on Terra during the boarding of Horus barge to reform the Guard after the Heresy.

Some say he is the Sanguinor.

feintstar
01-12-2010, 14:20
Nah I can see the Pal/Blaggard argument: Its the 'extra something' that the emperor grants with his psychic grace that goes from quiescent, benign, aiding allies to offensive, corrupting and only good for number 1. Or in some cases there is actual possession (fulgrim), where its not really the primarch at all: No stat buffs required, just distinctly different abilities, some of which go from 'Through my aura I grant my squad a 4++ save' to 'I kill model X by eating his soul and gain 1 wound + FNP.'

Zweischneid
01-12-2010, 16:03
The Emperor of Mankind knocked out brawny Primarchs like Leman Russ.

The Emperor of Mankind got almost strangled by an Ork.

Mephiston is not in danger of being strangled by an Ork.

Hence, Mephiston > Emperor > Primarchs in sheer 1-on-1 combat power (though Primarchs might have other qualities).

Honestly, I don't see much reason to place most primarchs much beyond your average SM Captain + fancy gear.

Mephiston is really rather out there....

MEcorp
01-12-2010, 16:44
Honestly, I don't see much reason to place most primarchs much beyond your average SM Captain + fancy gear.

You mean aside from the fact that its repeatedly mentioned that they can chew through marines like a chainsword through butter? The Primarchs were Demigods of war and destruction. Marines are pale shadows of their fathers and Captains are just older more experienced shadows.

KharnTheBetrayer01
01-12-2010, 17:35
Honestly, I don't see much reason to place most primarchs much beyond your average SM Captain + fancy gear

After De'shea shows Angron more than capable of completely dominating the War Hounds, being faster, stronger and generally far superiour in every way to them. He takes down an Adeptus Custodes without struggling, or at least thats how it seems in his words. And this is before he's given Adeptus armour or any of their, presumably superior equipment.

Lord_Crull
01-12-2010, 18:23
Honestly, I don't see much reason to place most primarchs much beyond your average SM Captain + fancy gear.


In First Heretic Corax was curbstomping Possesed Marines with ease. He killed one without even looking at him. It was one Primarch vs. thirty Possesed daemon-enhanced Astartes and he was killing them with little effort. In Raven's Flight Corax was wielding heavy bolters like pistols and ripping apart tanks with his bare hands. All while wounded after an earlier fight with Curze. Fulgrim fought and killed a Wraithlord with his bare hands. Russ was slaughtering Thousand Sons Captains and Astartes with ease. Angron goes through Astartes at Istavaan like a hot chainsaw through butter.

Magnus fought and defeated a daemonically possesed Eldar Titan almost single-handedly. Angron annhilated an Eldar strike force while he was still a child. Vulkan annhilated an Eldar strike force armed with only a pair of blacksmith hammers. If certain accounts are believed Curze climbed out from the molten core of his homeworld as a baby. Sanguinius fought and defeat Ka'Bandha, one of Khorne's most senior Bloodthirsters (Ka'Bandha in the BA Codex later on curbstomps a Blood Angels Captain and his retinue)

Primarchs are leaps and bounds ahead of any Marine Captain.

Duoth
15-12-2010, 01:37
I believe what they mean by "Unlocked the full potential of his geneseed" is that Mephiston not only succumbed to the flaw in his geneseed, but managed to overcome it and use it to his advantage.

FabricatorGeneralMike
15-12-2010, 03:53
I believe what they mean by "Unlocked the full potential of his geneseed" is that Mephiston not only succumbed to the flaw in his geneseed, but managed to overcome it and use it to his advantage.

Yeah, but why thats lame " Blood Angels just take DC marine, chain him up until he fights off the Black Rage. If he dies, so be it, if he doesn't then you got a Movie Marine in a normal game of 40k"


That = Fail.

shadowhawk2008
15-12-2010, 07:06
i believe that is indeed what happens. IF a DC blood angel does not die in battle, which is highly unlikely imo, then he is brought back to baal and locked up in some tower or something far away from the other battle brothers.

Hive Mind 33
15-12-2010, 23:18
I know, the title is probably too intriguing to actually create a thread worthy of it, but I couldn't help myself.


Does anyone notice a strange re-interpretation of Mephiston since the new BA Dex? There is a line in the new fluff that goes something like "Unlocked the full potential of his gene seed," to which I immediately thought something along the lines of
"what a load of complete and utter rubbish. After all, aren't all Space Marines an unlocked potential of their Gene Seed? That's why they have S4 and T4 an I 4 ppl! Whatever were GW thinking when they made that the pitiful excuse for their ridiculous statline!"

But then something occurred to me which is equally ridiculous but utterly in keeping with everything that already exists in Background fluff: Suppose that a conventional Space Marine is a heterotype of both indigenous human and gene seeded DNA. "Unlocking the full potential" would therefore be a fully dominant geneseed expression - a phenotype that fully expresses those genes from th geneseed: Therefore:

Mephiston has the stats (+/- a few points of WS and a few special rules) of a Primarch.

This is not so far fetched. Sanguinius vs the Bloodthirster was an even battle at the gates of the Imperial Palace. Mephiston vs the Bloodthirster is a resonable match up even now, and then as now, the primarch would probably win dt better wargear amongst other things.

The statline of primarchs can be roughly guessed at as we have reasonable evidence that they are slightly superior to fully Warp-enhanced Chaos Space Marines. We can know this, because Luthor vs Lion El Johnson was also a roughly even combat. We also know that LEJ was second in combat and general prowess only to the Warmaster himself, at least in the Great Crusade season rankings table.

The fact that Mephiston's statline so vastly exceeds regular marines is not to be understated: We hear a great deal about by how much a Space Marine exceeds an Ordinary human - that's one point of S and T - Not Mephiston's excessive doubling. If this comes from 'unlocking his geneseed' rather than from his psychic prowess, then it can only be the primarch phenotype.

It has begun: Mephiston is a Darkly Shadowed Sanguinius reborn, first of the Primarchs to return, and we are indeed living in the End Times.

Impossible he is not an Ultramarine.

SgtTaters
15-12-2010, 23:48
Does anyone notice a strange re-interpretation of Mephiston since the new BA Dex? There is a line in the new fluff that goes something like "Unlocked the full potential of his gene seed," to which I immediately thought something along the lines of
"what a load of complete and utter rubbish. After all, aren't all Space Marines an unlocked potential of their Gene Seed? That's why they have S4 and T4 an I 4 ppl! Whatever were GW thinking when they made that the pitiful excuse for their ridiculous statline!"


The Dark Eldar codex also mentions that Haemonculi had tinkered with space wolf geneseed. The space wolves found a bunch of raving mad wulfen and mutated space wolves, but most frightening of all was the "uncanny resemblance they bore to Leman Russ".

Mannimarco
16-12-2010, 00:12
Looking forward to the next Chaos codex where we will hopefully see a little more of Fabulous Bill who claims to have discovered the secrets of how the emperor created the primarchs and has been tinkering with geneseed for the past few millenia.

Oh we're gonna have us some fun.....any time now.....in your own time Billy boy

Mephiston#1
16-12-2010, 01:22
Just a note, someone mentioned that Sanguinius fought a decently even fight with the lord of bloodthirsters (Ka'banda or whatever his name is) who could smoke regular blood thirsters.

So stating that given that Mephiston could fight an even fight with a regular blood thirster does not put him on Sanguinius' power level but in the blood angels codex, Sanguinor fights Ka'Banda and beats him. Sanguinor and Mephiston are close to the same power level so that blood thirster couldn't have been that uber .... or could he?

FabricatorGeneralMike
16-12-2010, 03:13
Just a note, someone mentioned that Sanguinius fought a decently even fight with the lord of bloodthirsters (Ka'banda or whatever his name is) who could smoke regular blood thirsters.

So stating that given that Mephiston could fight an even fight with a regular blood thirster does not put him on Sanguinius' power level but in the blood angels codex, Sanguinor fights Ka'Banda and beats him. Sanguinor and Mephiston are close to the same power level so that blood thirster couldn't have been that uber .... or could he?


This all sounds like a M Night Shalaman movie " What a twist!!1!!!111" :rolleyes:

FlashGordon
16-12-2010, 23:20
It's for Apocalypse where they don't have to be bothered by balance, viability, points costs, scale or anything. Well, except for matching the fluff. See the Imperator Titan for details.


I disagree.