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View Full Version : Lamenters new fluff, whadayathink?



totgeboren
30-11-2010, 08:44
I have been reading IA:9, and they have changed the fluff for the Lamenters a bit.
In the WD article on the cursed founding, I remember them being the only BA successor chapter not afflicted by the BA flaw. This was a huge thing background-wise.

However, in IA:9, they now suffer from it, only to a lesser degree, and it seem like it is getting worse, to the point of reducing this "miracle" to something of no consequence.

What do you think of this? I don't like it at all, it reduces the Lamenters to simply a crappy Chapter. They are yellow BA, but with really bad luck and a heart as their logo.

The whole point of the Cursed Founding Chapters was that they had some awesome blessing, but the drawback that came with it just didn't make it worth it. The BA had more in common with the Cursed Founding than with the original Legions in this way, and the Lamenters reversed that. They were the only Cursed Founding Chapter that turned out normal, it appeared at first.
I really liked the poetic contrast they presented.

A central theme in the BA fluff is their struggle with the Flaw, and their continued survival is totally dependant on finding a solution. Mephiston for example is fluff-wise such an awesome guy, because he seems to have overcome it somehow and so on.

The Lamenters uses the BA geneseed, with all the pros, but did not suffer from the cons. This is a miracle for all BA-successors everywhere, and for the Imperium as a whole!
However, there was a drawback, and that drawback is much more subtle than the Flaw, but is of such consequence that the Lamenters solution just isn't worth it.

So, now that I have ranted a bit, I want to hear what others think? Is this a good thing? There should be no solution to the BA flaw in the first place, or did the Lamenters bring something mysterious to the setting that enriched it?

Lord Damocles
30-11-2010, 08:49
This is why the Lamenters should never have been confirmed as a Blood Angels sucessor chapter *glares at James Swallow*:mad:

Nazguire
30-11-2010, 09:46
I like it. I see it as that it shows that there may be a short-term solution, but in the end, the Flaw is really inescapable.

Idaan
30-11-2010, 11:12
Blame Matt Ward, I think it was him that first had them suffering from the Flaw. Clueless as usual.

Aiwass
30-11-2010, 11:20
Yeah, bring Mr Ward to the Warseer Inquisition... BTW Mr Ward stoled our Blood Knights from the CSM dex and put them in the BA dex :shifty:

Sephiroth
30-11-2010, 11:44
I don't think Ward had anything to do with it, so much as FW preferred the Lamenters to use the Codex: Blood Angels.

However, this was always a point of contention for me, as two Chapters should really not be included in the Blood Angels Codex; Lamenters, and Blood Drinkers.

Lamenters, because they didn't suffer from the Flaw, and the Cursed Founding was supposedly a secret project, so their parent Chapter wouldn't recognise them as belonging to them.

The Blood Drinkers, because they ARE a Codex Chapter. They still suffer from the Flaw, but don't field any Death Company (possibly they either just terminate afflicted battle-brothers immediately upon succumbing, or don't form them into a specialized unit) and were more accurately represented by Codex: Space Marines.

Leftenant Gashrog
30-11-2010, 13:18
Unless of course they decided to go with the Blood Angel Codex because Ward had already put them in there.

Have the Blood Drinkers ever been stated not to field a Death Company? The use of suicide assault squads is apparently standard Astartes practice (certainly its listed in the generic Rites of Initiation article), to my knowledge the only confirmed thing is that the Blood Drinkers strictly follow Codex marking procedures.


Lamenters, because they didn't suffer from the Flaw, and the Cursed Founding was supposedly a secret project, so their parent Chapter wouldn't recognise them as belonging to them.
Just because it was secret doesn't mean there might not have been Blood Angel involvement. For one thing I was under the impression that the AdMech know that the BA Geneseed is unreliable but don't know the exact specifics of why.. (or else surely it would have been reported to the Inquisition and the High Lords by now) in which case how could they truly fix the problem?

feintstar
30-11-2010, 13:31
What is the Lamenters' subtle flaw? Are they Emo? Do they cry a lot, but are otherwise the most resiliant, hardcore ultraviolent saintly tactically impeccable chapter that was ever founded?

That would be... interesting. And quite unique I should add. Everyone at -2 Ld, +1 S and T. Lol.

Aiwass
30-11-2010, 13:39
I prefer for Lamenters that they had their own special rule army wide.

Epic Fail. They must re-roll any succesful roll to hit and wound. That is their flaw and because that they're lamenting.

borithan
30-11-2010, 17:12
What is the Lamenters' subtle flaw?Incredibly bad luck. To the extent that they have nearly been wiped out. They joined the wrong side on the Badab War, were sent on a Crusade to as punishment and promptly ran into Tyranids and were nearly exterminated. Presumably there is meant to have been more bad luck previously, but that is the main element.

totgeboren
30-11-2010, 19:47
Incredibly bad luck. To the extent that they have nearly been wiped out. They joined the wrong side on the Badab War, were sent on a Crusade to as punishment and promptly ran into Tyranids and were nearly exterminated. Presumably there is meant to have been more bad luck previously, but that is the main element.

True, but as I read it, I think the original idea was a little more subtle, and I like that FW took this route in explaining their "bad luck".

It's no so much bad luck, as in getting splashed by a passing car that drives through a puddle of water, or never winning on the lottery.

It's more like, even when they do everything really well, unexpected consequences makes any victory hollow.

Like, defeating your enemy gloriously with minimum casualties, but when you get back home, a different totally unexpected enemy has raided your home turf and left it in ruins. Its like "yay we won, but things are worse anyway".... kinda something like that?

Formerly Wu
30-11-2010, 20:05
It's more like, even when they do everything really well, unexpected consequences makes any victory hollow.


Quite. I rather liked the IA9 story of the Lamenter's attempt to rescue a world from the orks. They made the right and heroic choice at every juncture: smashing the orks when nobody thought it possible, staying to defend the millions of civilians when the ork hordes came back, waiting until the last moment before demolishing the mission objective and retreating. But the world burned, the civilians died, and when they got back everybody thought they were jerks because they refused a medal.

That's the Lamenters for you. Always the hollow victory.

Grimbad
01-12-2010, 00:14
What is the Lamenters' subtle flaw? Are they Emo? Do they cry a lot, but are otherwise the most resiliant, hardcore ultraviolent saintly tactically impeccable chapter that was ever founded?

That would be... interesting. And quite unique I should add. Everyone at -2 Ld, +1 S and T. Lol.

Actually, their original rules forced leadership checks on enemies wishing to charge them due to an aura of tragedy surrounding them.

I do agree they shouldn't have been lumped into the Blood Angels codex. They were more interesting when they had cured one curse and suffered another, rather than failing to cure the curse at all and getting another one for free.

SimonL
01-12-2010, 00:46
Epic Fail. They must re-roll any succesful roll to hit and wound. That is their flaw and because that they're lamenting.


LOL

Anyone else think that the Lamenters are the Edward Cullens of 40k's "Vampires in Space"? Maybe they have a melanochromine mutation that makes them sparkle...

Col. Tartleton
01-12-2010, 01:00
The whole point of the Lamenters is they're the pinnacle of Marines and there's just something wrong that no one can put a finger on.

Spoilers





Its like in the Fall of Malvolion. They show up and start killing the crap out of the Nids and the human observer is like "Holy Emperor! Thank You For Sending Your Angels of Death," and then the entire company gets wiped out to a man before his eyes because they basically attacked directly into the middle of the nid offensive and they're being ripped apart by dozens and dozens of carnifexes.

But they're marines, its what's expected of them. If those were Imperial Fists it would have been a heroic example of self sacrifice and it would have inspired the defenders to fight to the death. When they die to a man upon carving a swathe through the vanguard of the Tyrannid foes the last resistance is like "Well, that was our last hope. Better to die at our own hands then get eaten alive like those poor chaps, wot."

That's why they're the Lamenters. It's not so much their own failings but how people view them. There's something about them that makes men lose heart... That's why they're Lamenters. Its not them crying its everyone around them... They're kick ass. Kind of.

FabricatorGeneralMike
01-12-2010, 04:44
The whole point of the Lamenters is they're the pinnacle of Marines and there's just something wrong that no one can put a finger on.

Spoilers





Its like in the Fall of Malvolion. They show up and start killing the crap out of the Nids and the human observer is like "Holy Emperor! Thank You For Sending Your Angels of Death," and then the entire company gets wiped out to a man before his eyes because they basically attacked directly into the middle of the nid offensive and they're being ripped apart by dozens and dozens of carnifexes.

But they're marines, its what's expected of them. If those were Imperial Fists it would have been a heroic example of self sacrifice and it would have inspired the defenders to fight to the death. When they die to a man upon carving a swathe through the vanguard of the Tyrannid foes the last resistance is like "Well, that was our last hope. Better to die at our own hands then get eaten alive like those poor chaps, wot."

That's why they're the Lamenters. It's not so much their own failings but how people view them. There's something about them that makes men lose heart... That's why they're Lamenters. Its not them crying its everyone around them... They're kick ass. Kind of.


I agree 100%


Actually, their original rules forced leadership checks on enemies wishing to charge them due to an aura of tragedy surrounding them.

I do agree they shouldn't have been lumped into the Blood Angels codex. They were more interesting when they had cured one curse and suffered another, rather than failing to cure the curse at all and getting another one for free.

Again I agree 100%


True, but as I read it, I think the original idea was a little more subtle, and I like that FW took this route in explaining their "bad luck".

It's no so much bad luck, as in getting splashed by a passing car that drives through a puddle of water, or never winning on the lottery.

It's more like, even when they do everything really well, unexpected consequences makes any victory hollow.

Like, defeating your enemy gloriously with minimum casualties, but when you get back home, a different totally unexpected enemy has raided your home turf and left it in ruins. Its like "yay we won, but things are worse anyway".... kinda something like that?

This is the way they should of been potrayed. We did everything right, we kicked a$$ and took names in the name of the Emperor....but snap, 3/4's of out chapter just got eaten by the nids.


Incredibly bad luck. To the extent that they have nearly been wiped out. They joined the wrong side on the Badab War, were sent on a Crusade to as punishment and promptly ran into Tyranids and were nearly exterminated. Presumably there is meant to have been more bad luck previously, but that is the main element.

Yeppers, if you think your life sucks, try being a Lamenter for a little while, things won't seem so bad. :shifty:


This is why the Lamenters should never have been confirmed as a Blood Angels sucessor chapter *glares at James Swallow*:mad:

Well, atleast Mat Ward didn't do the background for them......oh wait... :rolleyes::wtf:

lolcat
01-12-2010, 06:23
I had assumed that the flaw had been overcame post Badab.

Idaan
01-12-2010, 11:13
Indeed, that's what Matt Ward's write-up for BA successors suggests - that they found a cure, but in doing so succumbed to an even more terrible (and vague) flaw.

So right now the background fits together thus:
- They're created and don't suffer the Red Thirst
- Shortly after that, rumours of terrible bad luck start
- Before Badab War, the flaw resurfaces
- After Badab War they claim to have found a cure, but the geneseed of the Chapter keeps deteriorating.

Bergioyn
01-12-2010, 20:03
Don't like it a bit. Old one was better.