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Inevitable
30-11-2010, 22:42
Argument came up during a tournament.

Does the Banner of Flame grant the unit Magical Flaming attacks or just Flaming attacks.

Need to be able to prove it with rulebook references please. Judge declared it Flaming only.

Ultimate Life Form
30-11-2010, 22:43
It's really easy: It does what it says in its description.

Blkc57
30-11-2010, 22:57
Its flaming only

Malorian
30-11-2010, 23:04
I would have ruled it as flaming only too.


I can see the counter arguement, but I think it's a weak one.

Pacorko
30-11-2010, 23:19
Just Flaming.

Mal, I believe there's no real counter-argument here.

Ultimate Life Form
30-11-2010, 23:22
Mal, I believe there's no real counter-argument here.

At least none that could be substantiated with any rulebook references the OP is asking us to give, leaving only wishful thinking.

Kevlar
01-12-2010, 00:26
Well, it does grant magical flaming attacks to demons of chaos or grail knights.

Pacorko
01-12-2010, 00:31
But it does it because of those units' inherent abilities, doesn't it?

I mean, it's a couple of very special cases. Or am I missing something? Which may very well be the case as I don't have the pertinent books with me, right now.

Kevlar
01-12-2010, 00:37
Well I am just saying that in certain instances yes, it can grant magical flaming attacks. Tree kin beware!

theunwantedbeing
01-12-2010, 01:00
Well, it does grant magical flaming attacks to demons of chaos or grail knights.

It doesn't.
They already have magical attacks.

Kalandros
01-12-2010, 08:00
page 69, Flaming Attacks, last paragraph of that rule, I'll make a short version of it:
"any attacks made with magic weapons are unaffected by this rule"

So while chaos knights have ensorcelled weapons and the banner of eternal flame - they have +1S but NO Flaming Attacks!

as for the main topic question, refer to the Rulebook FAQ found here, page 5/8 has the answer.

Q: What are ‘magical attacks’? (p68)
A: All attacks made by spells and magic items are considered
to be magical attacks, as are all attacks that are specifically
noted as being magical attacks. Shots fired from magical items
are also considered to be magical attacks, unless their
description specifically states otherwise. Hits inflicted by rolls
on the Miscast table are treated as magical attacks.

Banner of Eternal Flame is not used to slice the enemy or shoot the enemy, it is used to gain a special rule named Flaming Attacks, you gain nothing more.
If one would gain Magic attacks from that banner, then every magic banner granting a special rule would also grant magic attacks, no? Corsairs with Sea Serpent Standard grants Frenzy to the unit - oh hey MAGIC ATTACKS!

No, its not how it works, by the very words of the FAQ: 'attacks that are specifically noted as being magical attacks'
and rules dealing with 'only affected by magical attacks' actually use the wording 'only affected by magic weapons and effects' or something like that, so there's no need to spell out that Magic Weapons deal Magical Attacks - but a Magic Banner is not a weapon, its only an Icon imbued with magic that grants a Special Rule, it does not grant a Special rule AND magical attacks.

Of course there are exceptions like the Vampire Counts' Banner of Hellfire which grants Magical Flaming Attacks - because it specifically states as much.
Or having the Banner of Eternal Flame (thats the rulebook banner) on a unit that does not have Magic Weapons but has a rule that makes them deal Magical Attacks with Mundane Weapons: Tomb Guards, Grave Guards, Black Knights, Wight Kings, Grail Knights, Forest Spirits with a banner (Wild Riders, not sure what other forest spirit can get a banner or a bsb with them?)

smithers
03-12-2010, 06:38
The only room for argument on this one I can see is a mundane bow with magical arrows.

This came up yesterday I think in another thread. I'd allow it since Wood Elf arrows are enchanted items not weapons, but others in the thread were calling cheese.